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silviotoledo
07-18-2012, 07:49 PM
and, of course, Dennis hired to the developement team :)

Don't know about what Newtek thing, but I'm sure the big part of the users are praying for that.

Sorry to start a campaign without consulting you Mr. Dennis.

Sensei
07-18-2012, 07:57 PM
Seriously - do you want to wait for releases (half year at least) to have things fixed?

silviotoledo
07-18-2012, 08:03 PM
Nativelly implemented will speed up processing time and open a door to more possibilities connected to the Lw system. It would open a dor for dynamic skin and layer deform as example, what is needed for lightwave.

I agree that independent development advaces fast, but integration is needed.

Sensei
07-18-2012, 08:12 PM
Layer deform? Nodes are more powerful than layers.. So you want to move back?

Making modifier/history stack is possible now for 3rd party developer. Even using couple different ways (3 comes to mine mind now). No need to mess with core..

colkai
07-19-2012, 04:31 AM
Agree with Sensei, if DPonts nodes were integrated, you could kiss goodbye to teh amazingly fast updates to them.

Think Rounder, nuff said.

3DGFXStudios
07-19-2012, 04:39 AM
Noooooo bad idea!

erikals
07-19-2012, 05:37 AM
why not have them integrated, while at the same time let DPont do what he does right now?
sort of like Sasquatch Lite...
for upgrades you'd just go to the DPont site...

just an idea...

yes / no ?

K-Dawg
07-19-2012, 05:45 AM
why not have them integrated, while at the same time let DPont do what he does right now?
sort of like Sasquatch Lite...
for upgrades you'd just go to the DPont site...

just an idea...

yes / no ?

No!

There would be no difference to now if you think about it. What hinders you to download the newer version of a plugin and install it now? DP Plugins don't need a native integration, LW SDK just needs more accesebility for developers to overcome limits. One Example of limits is LW 9 and DP Instance. DP Instance is great, just takes long to render and mainly due to limited SDK AFAIK.

Btw. If NT would integrate the DP plugins, then we couldn't just DL the newer versions and update. Look at all the other Free Plugins that have been integrated to LW. DI Tools, JW Tools and many more. Can you still get them? Nope. I'm glad I DL'ed the JW Tools before Newtek integrated them into LW and now you can't DL them anymore. Do you really want that to happen to DP Tools too?

Greetz

Sensei
07-19-2012, 05:48 AM
just takes long to render and mainly due to limited SDK AFAIK.

Not true.

K-Dawg
07-19-2012, 05:56 AM
Well it takes long to render, I might have been wrong with the SDK though.

I just remember something cause DP can't access the relevant SDK part to Rendering or something. Been a while.

UnCommonGrafx
07-19-2012, 06:09 AM
My vote is no.

Fiberfx and the timeframe for fixes did not improve.

The tuffunit stuff got implemented and forgotten. HvDeform anyone?

For a moment, Relativity was hosed. Dunno if Prem was around or not at that time but he got put "on board".

I would much rather that Anti and the BrainTrust further the paradigm by giving us the Global Node System we all want; with this, Denis' offerings would be even more powerful, on his fix-it-when-it's-broke release schedule, and even fewer limitations for us all.

I believe that this kind of initiative ought to be taken up: Give us a Global Node System. That, and the unified environment one presumes could come along (dunno which comes first) is what we need for ... change to the better.
Not Denis being put into the fold, hands tied to wait for GroupThink to catch up.

erikals
07-19-2012, 06:39 AM
Look at all the other Free Plugins that have been integrated to LW. DI Tools, JW Tools and many more. Can you still get them? Nope.
they are integrated integrated into LW now, so no need to download them.


If NT would integrate the DP plugins, then we couldn't just DL the newer versions and update.
we could, if NT went the Sas Lite route...

K-Dawg
07-19-2012, 06:54 AM
they are integrated integrated into LW now, so no need to download them.
True, but not every LW User updates to the next Version. Some of us still run older versions and it's a pity having to download and reinstall the plugins for any given reason. If you're not on the version NT released with the integrated plugin, then your screwed.


we could, if NT went the Sas Lite route...

Dunno how that was settled. I hardly used Saslite and never used Sasquatch. But even if, I doubt DP would "sell" or "give" NT his plugins to integrate and write a new set to DL on his website, given the fact that his plugs are free in the first place. That somehow just seems awkward and confusing too.

NT should just support DP a bit more by communicating with him and see what they can do with the SDK or even coming releases so that third parties in total can do even more amazing plugins for LW at their own way of doing things. NT could even officially just recommend DP Plugins on their website as an addition to even "push Lightwave the extra mile and beyond".

Just a thought.

Greetz

silviotoledo
07-19-2012, 09:34 AM
I guess there will be fast updates if Dennis would also be also integrated to devevelopment team.

Cageman
07-19-2012, 09:40 AM
As I said in another thread; DPont and NewTek are exactly where they should be in relation to each other and both benefit from this, and we as users do get the biggest slice of the cake. I don't think for a minute that DPont would be able to release fixes as he likes if he were integrated into the LW-dev team...

So, no... it is a bad idea!

EDIT: What NewTek should do though, is to promote third party developers; have links to their pages on the LW-page.

Lightwolf
07-19-2012, 09:51 AM
I guess there will be fast updates if Dennis would also be also integrated to devevelopment team.
Like there are fast updates for the parts developed by other third parties that are now a part of the dev team? ;)

Seriously, that wouldn't work unless NT change their release structure (which they seem to be doing anyhow, looking at the SPs).

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
07-19-2012, 10:10 AM
Like there are fast updates for the parts developed by other third parties that are now a part of the dev team? ;)

Seriously, that wouldn't work unless NT change their release structure (which they seem to be doing anyhow, looking at the SPs).

Cheers,
Mike

I think that is a great thing that NT has changed. I really like the SPs, and they are quite frequent as well... but looking at, for example, how DPont can respond to a bug that Mr.Rid adressed and get a fix out in a matter of hours... more or less... that type of support is a lot harder if you have to be constrained to certain releasedates.

Or your support for some of the stuff we use and needed fixed. ;)

Phil
07-19-2012, 10:26 AM
For a moment, Relativity was hosed. Dunno if Prem was around or not at that time but he got put "on board".

Based on the way that Prem treated his SE/DSFX 2.0 customers, he'd already decided to simply walk away leaving everyone high and dry. That's the upside to having something included - at least it remains available after the original developer gives up. From what I can tell from the public information, I don't think Prem was ever an NT employee. I think he was only ever contracted to finish up Relativity, nothing more. Relativity's issues have/had nothing to do with NewTek, from my perspective.

As for SE/DSFX, it's a shame that NT couldn't acquire that as well as Relativity.

As for FiberFX, it would likely have never progressed as far as it has (warts and all, it still has value) without NT behind it. The Mac port, for example, was long promised, but never surfaced and I doubt it would have seen the migration to the pixel filter/volumetric hybrid from a pure pixel filter. The plugin market is simply not that strong to support the extensive R&D and investment that these things require. Think I'm wrong? See Volumedic CE (no Mac port, insufficient demand), or any of the other Windows-only plugins.

Despite various donations, and other support activities, Denis remains on a single core Win32 machine. I've no idea why in his case, but it indicates that the plugin developers aren't, generally speaking, rolling in cash. NT has more resources.

What's the answer? I really don't know. If people aren't in favor of acquisitions and the like, perhaps NT could consider subcontracting as an approach? An incubator would lead to accusations of favouritism, so that might not fly. *shrug* There's Kickstarter and similar projects, but developers probably won't like to be held to a timeline and to the whims of the diverse stakeholders that would feel the need to micromanage.

Honestly, I don't know.

monovich
07-19-2012, 10:37 AM
Nice thought, but an independent Denis is best.

OnlineRender
07-19-2012, 10:48 AM
Nice thought, but an independent Denis is best.

agreed dont get me wrong I would love people like Denis ,Wolf ,Hurley ect to be involved in LW but they are in there own terms and tbh downloading them and installing at that HUGE a deal

prometheus
07-19-2012, 10:49 AM
As I said in another thread; DPont and NewTek are exactly where they should be in relation to each other and both benefit from this, and we as users do get the biggest slice of the cake. I don't think for a minute that DPont would be able to release fixes as he likes if he were integrated into the LW-dev team...

So, no... it is a bad idea!

EDIT: What NewTek should do though, is to promote third party developers; have links to their pages on the LW-page.

Exactly, in a major way, Lwcad, turbulencFD, volumedic etc, should have their uniqu banner next to Lightwave really, if the third party tool has reached that kind of level as they showcase.

Michael

Dexter2999
07-19-2012, 11:02 AM
The only plug in that I wish Newtek would buy out and make native is Bevel++...and just throw out the old bevel tool and rename "Bevel++" to "Bevel"

I think it would be a great move if Newtek just GAVE Denis an iMac (i7) with bootcamp and Windows 7 on it. Go ahead, write it off as a business expense.

Cageman
07-19-2012, 11:03 AM
NewTek should be very proud of the third party developers doing some of the most amazing plugins; not just in LW-land, but many of them are quite unique and are nowhere else to find.

Dexter2999
07-19-2012, 11:03 AM
Exactly, in a major way, Lwcad, turbulencFD, volumedic etc, should have their uniqu banner next to Lightwave really, if the third party tool has reached that kind of level as they showcase.

Michael

Been saying this for years. As well as saying they should have segment at trade shows showing how LW works with 3rd party.

Titus
07-19-2012, 11:08 AM
EDIT: What NewTek should do though, is to promote third party developers; have links to their pages on the LW-page.

I think the same, but it's not in NT business plan or vision.

Many years ago I was trying to sell a bunch of DVEs for the VT created by myself. At certain point I tried to approach NT for some kind of partnership. Their reply was "you're on your own, chap". Not that I can't do things by myself, but it's clearly not that kind of symbiosis NT is looking for.

I don't have an idea what is the job of Denis, or from where he gets money. He's clearly very close to being a genius, and a very avid developer. IMO he should do his thing independently, and if at some point he charges money, I'll pay.

wesleycorgi
07-19-2012, 11:37 AM
Isn't this part of the LW (not necessarily NT) fabric? LW is supposed to be this horrible platform for 3rd party developers (or even inhouse development) — and I'm sure that it is with poor documentation, limited-access SDK, etc.

But you have these wizards who are able to apply their black arts to extend the functionality of LW to combat the evil AD. And many times for free!

I've been tempted to leave LW for much greener pastures, because my 3D/animation magic is weak. I needed better AE integration, but then AE link appears. I needed better CA/rigging tools; RH to the rescue. I have a big gap in my animation knowledge in general, the God of Splines grants me his wisdom.

Part of the LW mystique (mistake? :) ) are these developers and dedicated users. I say, "Keep Lightwave Weird" (I was just in Austin, a shout from San Antonio). And encourage the Hurleys, DPonts, etc. to flourish, but also empower them (in the very least, as mentioned, give them some recognition on the NT site). A thriving third-party developer community = a thriving LW. Likewise, 3rd party sites like LightWiki and Liberty3D helps LW/NT thrive.

Can't wait to see what Python brings to the table with these wizards (and the wizards in training).

OnlineRender
07-19-2012, 12:48 PM
I think the same, but it's not in NT business plan or vision.



I disagree with that... perhaps Newtek but not the Lightwave team, don't get me wrong they have tendency to rub things under the carpet and communication with there upper management can be somewhat neglectful at times but again if you where Chuck or whomever you wouldn't have enough time in the day to read and respond to all pm's so you have to draw a line somewhere.

I've also noticed there keep shut up and let the software do the talking approach and personally I like it.

as the subject for supporting developers yes they are neglected but I get the impression that is not LightWave and I get the impression that website cant last forever at least not as a central hub for lightwave users it might suffice for tricaster " although I don't believe it " but for Lightwave it has to play ball and keep current with Modo and others.

as Bob Dylan said "THE TIMES THEY ARE A-CHANGIN " when I sadly have no idea , so in short its upto the users to create stunning work and self promote when the time is right everything will jigsaw back together ...

jasonwestmas
07-19-2012, 01:08 PM
Just need a better SDK like the original plan was in this regard. This also means that 3rd parties can make LW into something that Newtek hasn't thought of or hasn't the time and budget to do on their own. . .like the original plan was.

Lightwolf
07-19-2012, 01:48 PM
LW is supposed to be this horrible platform for 3rd party developers (or even inhouse development) — and I'm sure that it is with poor documentation, limited-access SDK, etc.
Or so the rumours go... which has less and less substance the more third party SDKs you work with. ;)

Ask the right questions and they all end up sucking. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

MSherak
07-19-2012, 04:06 PM
and, of course, Dennis hired to the developement team :)

Don't know about what Newtek thing, but I'm sure the big part of the users are praying for that.

Sorry to start a campaign without consulting you Mr. Dennis.

Nope. Like him right where he is at.. Being a Genius!!!

-M

wesleycorgi
07-19-2012, 04:23 PM
Or so the rumours go... which has less and less substance the more third party SDKs you work with. ;)

Ask the right questions and they all end up sucking. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

More power to you and all the LW 3rd party developers then! (I don't know what I'd do without exrTrader in my toolkit)

Sensei
07-19-2012, 07:52 PM
Well it takes long to render, I might have been wrong with the SDK though.

Volumetric plugin is such low level core elements, there is nothing what NewTek can do to speed it up- everything is up to plugin writer. As good KD-Tree/Octree he will prepare, as fast rendering will be.
Volumetric is demanding as fast processing as possible, because it's called for every ray in the scene. So if you have Full HD with AA passes 9, it'll be called at least 19 million times (if it'll be not hitting any geometry, just backup environment like sky). If every pixel is hitting geometry (no sky visible) - it'll be at least 38 million times called. That's with no reflections, refractions, no SSS, no GI, no occlusion.. simple single point or distant light.
If one ray will be handled in 1 mili second in volumetric, whole render will be ready in 10 hours..



I just remember something cause DP can't access the relevant SDK part to Rendering or something. Been a while.

There is really few things that can't be get from LWSDK.
I reported every that I know but still not done.
But nothing what might help dpont.
e.g. there is no way to learn how sub-patches looks like after freezing in Modeler.

Sensei
07-19-2012, 07:54 PM
The tuffunit stuff got implemented and forgotten.


Are you kidding?!

You're using it every single day!

Perspective camera, Surface Baking Camera, Advanced Camera Tools- whole camera plugin class is made by him.

Sensei
07-19-2012, 08:24 PM
EDIT: What NewTek should do though, is to promote third party developers; have links to their pages on the LW-page.

Just linking have sense for commercial work (as long as there is enough customers which buy).

If NewTek want 3rd party developers to stay with them, they should pay developers regular month salary (like 5k usd per month)- then 3rd party developers won't need to have to work in "real job", just making plug-ins and expanding existing one..
Every build of LW would have folder "3rd Party Authorized Developers", then sub-folder, and plug-ins made in such co-operation. And users would still be able to download latest fixes from 3rd party developers websites.

If developer is joining team, he is starting doing only as much as manager told him to do, and no bit more..

Ernest
07-19-2012, 08:39 PM
He'd probably end up working 1% of the time on new nodes and 99% of the time on LW's data structures and architecture to improve general stability and fix bugs. I don't think that Jon, Dave Vrba, and David Ikeda work more than 1% of their time on Hair, Physics, and Modeling tools respectively.

prometheus
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
If developer is joining team, he is starting doing only as much as manager told him to do, and no bit more..

Canīt wrap my head around this and understand that comment?
Why wouldnīt the developer do more and above what he is told? if he can?

Michael

Sensei
07-19-2012, 09:21 PM
Then think about it more..
That's almost the same in any kind of job.

prometheus
07-19-2012, 09:26 PM
Then think about it more..
That's almost the same in any kind of job.

Nope, the neurons aint connecting still, and I wont spend that much time to get that cleared up, not that important, I still just can say why would that be the same in any kind of job, generalizing so over any kind of job?

But leave it there, Im going to bed now.:D

Michael

Ryan Roye
07-19-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm pretty neutral on the issue... whatever works. I've barely even gotten my feet wet with Dpont's stuff. All I know it makes the impossible easy (IE: mixing MDD displacements with clothfx).

Cageman
07-20-2012, 01:17 AM
Then think about it more..
That's almost the same in any kind of job.

Na.. I would say that there i a lot of passion comming from the developers of LW... otherwise we wouldn't have seen Instancing or Flocking in LW for quite a while, or the quite amazing realtime CG-shaders system in CORE that had realtime Reflection, Refraction, Occlusion and Image based ligthing to a level of quality that I had not seen in any other 3D app at that time.

Or... VPR... if it wasn't for Jamies efforts we wouldn't have had it as early as we had, if you remember, at the time Jay said it wasn't possible.

So, the developers certanly go the extra mile!

CaptainMarlowe
07-20-2012, 01:24 AM
and, of course, Dennis hired to the developement team :)

Sorry to start a campaign without consulting you Mr. Dennis.

I think that's the whole point. What's the point of starting a campaign to get someone on board NT ship if he doesn't want to in the first place ?

geo_n
07-20-2012, 02:24 AM
Or... VPR... if it wasn't for Jamies efforts we wouldn't have had it as early as we had, if you remember, at the time Jay said it wasn't possible.

So, the developers certanly go the extra mile!

Jay said it wasn't possible but Elmar said it was put on hold for core but was already doable since lw 8. Bad decisions and procrastinating put lw where it is now, behind. If features and plugins are not quickly implemented or fixed for the sake of the next update, then for example dponts plugins would be way behind what they are now if he was with newtek.
So no for dp stuff to be integrated. Let newtek make their own versions.

Sensei
07-20-2012, 02:32 AM
I had "VPR" in 2007 on LW v9..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_1.mov

erikals
07-20-2012, 02:36 AM
...All I know it makes the impossible easy (IE: mixing MDD displacements with clothfx).

very curious, how is this done? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

 

Ryan Roye
07-20-2012, 10:33 AM
very curious, how is this done? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

This tutorial pretty much covers it.

"Displacements and MDD's can be friends" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF46N2ENAZc&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLXVUG3ZiKGTurAArLRD_b9A)

kopperdrake
07-20-2012, 11:23 AM
Not a good idea. I suspect that Denis has the freedom he wants, to do things at his own pace in the areas he so chooses. Personally, being the type of person I am, I would rather be on the outside, defining my own rules, than the inside working to pressures other than those I have placed, or allowed to be placed, on myself.

silviotoledo
07-20-2012, 12:49 PM
I think that's the whole point. What's the point of starting a campaign to get someone on board NT ship if he doesn't want to in the first place ?

I just wanna open the discussion about.
His nodes are antecipating what the future "core" or " whatever" must do in the future. It opens a door to things that where not possible before in lightwave and if part of this would be integrated we would have a lot more power.

There must be and agreement or way to integrate or colaborate more between Newtek and him anyway.

Sorry to touch in what does not belong to me, but as a Lightwave user I miss a lot of things.

Dexter2999
07-20-2012, 02:13 PM
Hmmm....

The idea behind "core" wasn't "everything integrated". The idea was to create an... well not really "open" software structure, but a system that would provide a stable foundation and readily accept modular components, a CORE for components to connect to. Components like the ones Denis creates already approach what "core" was about.

JANUS is yet another example of people clammoring for a perfectly good product to get crushed by making it "integrated". I don't believe integration will make the process any better. It will only crush a 3rd party supporting partner.

Integration will only serve Newtek customers in two ways that I can think of, it will pacify any fears that a 3rd party will stop updating support of a product if Newtek breaks a plug in. And, secondly users believe they will get more utility without paying more.

And that second belief, is false. Users will pay for it one way or another. Either by raised upgrade fee, or by pushing other features further down the development path (to be paid for with a separate update and at a separate cost.)

erikals
07-21-2012, 03:10 PM
 
thank you Ryan, will have a look... \:]

 

rcallicotte
07-21-2012, 05:07 PM
I agree this a great idea overall for all of the main plugins. Probably not especially popular, I'd guess. :stumped:

lino.grandi
07-21-2012, 05:44 PM
All I know it makes the impossible easy (IE: mixing MDD displacements with clothfx).

You can do that using the standard nodal MDD node you find in LightWave, exactly in the same way.

Anyway, Denis tools are awesome!

jeric_synergy
07-21-2012, 09:58 PM
I guess there will be fast updates if Dennis would also be also integrated to devevelopment team.
?!?!? Why in the world would you 'guess' that? :stumped: History weighs against you, my friend.

I think we're all better off w/Denis where he is, but I'd certainly like NewTek to give him as many resources, of whatever kind, that they can.

If NewTek can cut a deal where Denis stays independent, they pay him a retainer, and he allows them to have the code if he disappears, hey, best of all worlds eh?

+++

This tutorial pretty much covers it.

"Displacements and MDD's can be friends" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF46N2ENAZc&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLXVUG3ZiKGTurAArLRD_b9A)
Thanks for that link, chaz.

--- watch watch watch --- Sheesh, SE bump maps become Displacement Maps? @^@ Not exactly intuitive, but I'm glad it works.

Sensei
07-21-2012, 10:19 PM
His code will be useless for NewTek.
NewTek is using C++.
Denis is using ANSI C.

colkai
07-23-2012, 07:32 AM
Canīt wrap my head around this and understand that comment?
Why wouldnīt the developer do more and above what he is told? if he can?

Michael

Because he is told what to do and bosses do nto take kindly to doing things on your own initiative. Trust me, I've had to take features out because the boss wanted to hold 'em back as a future "upgrade", just because it can be done, doesn't mean they want you to have it. Weird I know, but hey, business isn't really a common sense game.

prometheus
07-23-2012, 08:14 AM
Because he is told what to do and bosses do nto take kindly to doing things on your own initiative. Trust me, I've had to take features out because the boss wanted to hold 'em back as a future "upgrade", just because it can be done, doesn't mean they want you to have it. Weird I know, but hey, business isn't really a common sense game.

Bad bosses and work policy in my opinion, I think the developers of maya fluids thrown in things that the bosses didnīt know etc, but that might be a completly different thing.

I see what you mean now about business policy while developing, but as a worker in different business regarding if you are developing something or just doing your work better and more than expected, I thought that is something to strive towards, and not being tied up by doing exactly what your told and no more or less.

Michael

Cageman
07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
Jay said it wasn't possible but Elmar said it was put on hold for core but was already doable since lw 8. Bad decisions and procrastinating put lw where it is now, behind. If features and plugins are not quickly implemented or fixed for the sake of the next update, then for example dponts plugins would be way behind what they are now if he was with newtek.
So no for dp stuff to be integrated. Let newtek make their own versions.

Well, you did read my other posts in the thread as well, did you? :)

I was merely pointing out that LW wouldn't have been where it is today without developers going the extra mile, as a response to Senseis notion that if you work within a company, you will not have any passion or do the extra step, or even do things on your own initiative.

Yes, Elmar said VPR was possible since LW8.x, but that doesn't mean that the devs, at that time, had worked out how to do it. And, as mentioned, it was something that was put into CORE first, because it simply was easier to do it in CORE. Jamie then spent time (and probably a lot of overtime) to get it into classic LW.

My view on what I think regarding Denis becomming a part of LW-devteam can be found in my other posts.

This post (and the post you responded to) only adresses the false notion that devs can't do things on their own initiative just because they work within a company; the delivery on that initiative though, needs to be conformed within the structure of how releases are done, within the company... and understandably so.

:)

SBowie
07-24-2012, 05:46 AM
My view on what I think regarding Denis becomming a part of LW-devteam can be found in my other posts.I haven't followed this discussion (so I can't be accused of taking sides, can I?), nor can I speak to what occurs on the LW dev team, but I can tell you that over on our side of the building it is not unusual for someone's 'weekend project' to turn up in a product, nor is it unusual for some bright spark to open the door to something that wasn't part of the roadmap but which proved very useful.

Lightwolf
07-24-2012, 06:23 AM
...I thought that is something to strive towards, and not being tied up by doing exactly what your told and no more or less.
I don't think that's even an issue. However, the effort should be coordinated or rather has to be to be successful.
Imagine 10 third party developers working on LW, releasing whatever they just coded or fixed any time they want to. ;)
Heck, even open source projects have their constraints because a certain level of managing is required.

Add commercial constraints and you suddenly have a situation that's very different from a single developer doing whatever he wants.. how and when he wants.


Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
07-24-2012, 06:25 AM
Trust me, I've had to take features out because the boss wanted to hold 'em back as a future "upgrade"...
And it makes total sense as well - been there, done that (not holding back), won't do it again.
Unless you have an ever expanding set of customers (Only Pixologic seem to be able to pull that off though).

Cheers,
Mike

colkai
07-26-2012, 11:13 AM
I see what you mean now about business policy while developing, but as a worker in different business regarding if you are developing something or just doing your work better and more than expected, I thought that is something to strive towards, and not being tied up by doing exactly what your told and no more or less.

Michael

Alas, not normally the case in my experience, (30 years in the software industry). It always amazed me that it wasn't even important to get the code at it's most efficient and productive. Sometimes, we were told, "it works good enough now, don't waste any more time on it". Trouble is, in the back of your mind, you just knew it would bite you in the end, but you can't argue with the guy writing the paycheck, believe me, I tried for years. :p

prometheus
07-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Alas, not normally the case in my experience, (30 years in the software industry). It always amazed me that it wasn't even important to get the code at it's most efficient and productive. Sometimes, we were told, "it works good enough now, don't waste any more time on it". Trouble is, in the back of your mind, you just knew it would bite you in the end, but you can't argue with the guy writing the paycheck, believe me, I tried for years. :p

Well..you just canīt generalize human behaviors or company leaders and bosses, we are all different and act different, ergo..I do not believe in a general mathematic viewpoint of exactly what will happen, thereīs always a chance for someone to go different routes and not following a general route..even thou it might seems so, for someone just like you and with your experience.

Edit...even thou this is to be true in for example US or in this perticular business, I think Itīs a lousy work policy, And if such, I would probably work with something else if I should
feel that my creative potentional constantly would be held back.

Michael

Dexter2999
07-26-2012, 12:39 PM
Well..you just canīt generalize human behaviors or company leaders and bosses, we are all different and act different, ergo..I do not believe in a general mathematic viewpoint of exactly what will happen, thereīs always a chance for someone to go different routes and not following a general route..even thou it might seems so, for someone just like you and with your experience.

Edit...even thou this is to be true in for example US or in this perticular business, I think Itīs a lousy work policy, And if such, I would probably work with something else if I should
feel that my creative potentional constantly would be held back.

Michael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

It is a very real world wide industry practice. It applies to software as much as anyother product.

prometheus
07-26-2012, 02:07 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

It is a very real world wide industry practice. It applies to software as much as anyother product.


Yes..interesting study of business practice, but I do not feel this has to do what we are discussing here.

otherwise I must have misinterpreted the statements from sensei, and the essence of that, and the conclusion is that we might be discussing completly different topics.

Michael

Sensei
07-26-2012, 02:42 PM
otherwise I must have misinterpreted the statements from sensei

No, I didn't talk about such practices..

AbstractTech3D
07-26-2012, 03:13 PM
The only plug in that I wish Newtek would buy out and make native is Bevel++...and just throw out the old bevel tool and rename "Bevel++" to "Bevel"


I really do agree that Bevel ++ should be included as standard. (And even further developed). It seemed quite ridiculous to me to need to buy a 3rd party plugin in this regard.

As far as the topic at hand… the freedom 3rd party developers (Denis / Sensei) exercise in creating quick updates, and responding to the rest of us etc… really is great.
Thanks indeed guys.

Lightwolf
07-26-2012, 08:30 PM
Edit...even thou this is to be true in for example US or in this perticular business, I think Itīs a lousy work policy, And if such, I would probably work with something else if I should
feel that my creative potentional constantly would be held back.
It makes perfect sense for a business. It's also got nothing to do with holding any of the team members back, but with organising the product and the work that goes into.
"Even" open source projects work with release cycles and a co-ordinated effort.

As for colkais example, one thing that shouldn't be forgotten (without knowing what exactly happened) - every code change is a potential breaking point and needs testing.
Sometimes an existing system that just works decently is better than a groundbreaking change that has the potential to delay release for x amount of time - even if it comes with massive benefits.

Cheers,
Mike

adk
07-26-2012, 09:03 PM
Just wanted to jump in and say...

Mike / Lightwolf ... do you ever write anything that doesn't make perfect sense ? :D
You're like Yoda ... minus the annoying word/sentence/jumble speach pattern :D

prometheus
07-26-2012, 10:36 PM
Just wanted to jump in and say...

Mike / Lightwolf ... do you ever write anything that doesn't make perfect sense ? :D
You're like Yoda ... minus the annoying word/sentence/jumble speach pattern :D

yes indeed, great Lightwolf.

Just dont steer the pond up, just keep let it settle and be as calm as it can be, and You will see everything beneath it with clarity.:)

Got me thinking of what the process is called when talking about introducing a new system upon an old system or replacing a system completely, and upon doing so unavoidable breaking
something good, and actually doing worse for that specific break point, even thou general overall system works better.
This is generally speaking of many systems, also valid for economics, politics etc.
Any good scientific tag or word for that?

Michael

adk
07-27-2012, 12:10 AM
yes indeed, great Lightwolf.

Just dont steer the pond up, just keep let it settle and be as calm as it can be, and You will see everything beneath it with clarity.:)

Got me thinking of what the process is called when talking about introducing a new system upon an old system or replacing a system completely, and upon doing so unavoidable breaking
something good, and actually doing worse for that specific break point, even thou general overall system works better.
This is generally speaking of many systems, also valid for economics, politics etc.
Any good scientific tag or word for that?

Michael

... sort of, & maybe not at all, like a reverse Marilyn :D

"...bad things fall apart so good things can fall together"

prometheus
07-27-2012, 12:41 AM
... sort of, & maybe not at all, like a reverse Marilyn :D

"...bad things fall apart so good things can fall together"

Marilyn Who? Im afraid I have to speculate on who, please enlighten me.
After A comes ?

The second part makes sense thou, except on my own cells wich for some reason loses information and it doesīt get any better, and together with all of this thinking that shows in terms of some gray hair strands.
This thread starts to fall apart too..need to pick up the essence again.

Michael

adk
07-27-2012, 12:50 AM
It's just an extract from a Marilyn Monroe quote ... don't read too much into it mate :)

Lightwolf
07-27-2012, 05:42 AM
You're like Yoda ... minus the annoying word/sentence/jumble speach pattern :D
Believe you me, perfectly capable of not making sense am I also. Try not to post it, I do. :D

Cheers,
Mike

Andrewstopheles
07-29-2012, 07:30 PM
Newtek should throw some financial support into dpont, that's what I think. The work he has already done for the Lightwave community is worth more than a salary. Perhaps they could support him on an ongoing basis and give him improved access.

colkai
07-30-2012, 04:15 AM
Now that, I wholeheartedly agree with. :)

Sensei
07-30-2012, 04:54 AM
Now that, I wholeheartedly agree with. :)

http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=1257054&postcount=35

MentalFish
08-02-2012, 03:41 PM
I have said this time and time again, but here it is: being dependant on the availability and willingness of one single person is more risky than having a company backing the development. If Denis god forbid gets hit by a truck then all the DP tools will be stuck at their current version, and if LW version X turns out to be incompatible, you can kiss your DP-based pipeline goodbye (or stick to an outdated version of LW). Unless the 64bit compiler-dudes have struck a secret deal for the eventuality of future continuation of these tools that is? :)

prometheus
08-02-2012, 03:47 PM
I have said this time and time again, but here it is: being dependant on the availability and willingness of one single person is more risky than having a company backing the development. If Denis god forbid gets hit by a truck then all the DP tools will be stuck at their current version, and if LW version X turns out to be incompatible, you can kiss your DP-based pipeline goodbye (or stick to an outdated version of LW). Unless the 64bit compiler-dudes have struck a secret deal for the eventuality of future continuation of these tools that is? :)

God forbid plugins to become buddistic sandpaintings, but that will unavoidable be the case for everything some day, hopefully not in my lifetime thou.

And how I miss dynamite and ogo taiki development.
would be interesting to find out what these guy went to work with, or where they gone? hope they are having health thou, thatīs the most important thing even so.

Michael

jasonwestmas
08-02-2012, 06:45 PM
I have said this time and time again, but here it is: being dependant on the availability and willingness of one single person is more risky than having a company backing the development. If Denis god forbid gets hit by a truck then all the DP tools will be stuck at their current version, and if LW version X turns out to be incompatible, you can kiss your DP-based pipeline goodbye (or stick to an outdated version of LW). Unless the 64bit compiler-dudes have struck a secret deal for the eventuality of future continuation of these tools that is? :)

Actually Dennis gives his code to other people he knows so it never gets lost.

colkai
08-03-2012, 03:36 AM
Plus, history has shown, just as likely for development to die totally once Newtek gets hold of it, so kind of a moot argument. IF the company had a track record of always moving forward with development of plugins taken on board, then yep, I'd agree. In this case, not so much.
Unless of course, this whole "LW group" thing with Rob Powers at the head finally signals some common sense in that area.

jeric_synergy
08-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Actually Dennis gives his code to other people he knows so it never gets lost.
I hope some of those people work at NewTek.

In my ideal fantasy world, NewTek pays Denis a healthy retainer to freely play with his nodes, and in return Denis gives NewTek beautifully formatted and fully commented source code.

Then, when Denis becomes the pampered boy-toy of a Finnish super-model and forgets all about LightWave, NewTek soldiers on.

:D

COBRASoft
08-03-2012, 10:56 AM
I've been thinking about whole this thread for some time now. In the past I've also started and contributed threads where I ask NT to hire Denis, Viktor and others.

After some time you start to see things differently. Lightwave (NT) is showing big changes being independent now and so on. Rob and his team proof to be very focused and are working to their specific goal. People like Denis, Viktor, ... have other goals in their beautiful minds than LW has.

That being said, if it would be financially possible, I think it would be best if Lightwave pays a plane ticket for those special developers and invite them for their team-meetings once or twice a year. That way they can share ideas, possibilities and limitations with the other devs. Personal contact is still better than e-mails and phonecalls.

Tobian
08-03-2012, 08:07 PM
I think this thread is a little distasteful, because it's been on a fairly public record that Newtek and Denis have had multiple talks and they have come to whatever arrangement they have come to, and this thread is as likely to antagonist and annoy him as change his mind. I think Denis is a treasure, and we shouldn't try and push him into doing what WE want.

I also think it's great there's such excellent developers who can work round the edges of LW and make such great tools. In a way I think as much as anything it's a great test-bed to see what works, and how well it works. Ideally it's better if NT can specifically do it themselves though. A great example is HDI and DPI, which were both excellent creative uses of the volumetrics functionality in LW, but ultimatelly native, true, instancing was much superior (and in the case of DPI led to further improvements as Denis was able to leverage the functions he has in his instancer, but using the native, faster, instancing).

Newtek (Or is it LW3D, I am confused what we say now hehe) would simply be better improving the architecture of LW so the third party can do more with it. Many of the DP plugins are really just hacks into the system, doing wonders to be sure, but they are hacks. I wouldn't want them as is in LW, they should be properly integrated into the software. Instancing using volumetrics is a hack, the LW 11 version was much better. That's not a criticism of Denis, but the third party only have access to the SDK Newtek give them. Victor seems to have hit a wall with NURBS in Modeler, as Modelers's high poly handling can't take them: An improvement in this area, and some basic native Nurbs support would see an explosion in the LWcad functionality.

LightWave has a lot of ground to cover in the big rewrite, so yeah they won't be able to add everything from all of the good third party tools, and really they shouldn't need too, as that is where the third party is a huge asset to any software, to pick up the slack. Several times 3rd party tools have been rolled into LW and then died. Rounder has never been fixed, IKboost never went anywhere, and so on. Better native solutions, not bought in plugins, are always going to be a better solution anyway.

jasonwestmas
08-04-2012, 06:27 AM
Well first paragraph says it all Tobian. It's not really about what we want, very true. Writing down wish lists kinda gets old I guess.

It would be better to be on the beta LW team to provide input but many of us aren't.

erikals
08-04-2012, 07:44 PM
I have said this time and time again, but here it is: being dependant on the availability and willingness of one single person is more risky than having a company backing the development. If Denis god forbid gets hit by a truck then all the DP tools will be stuck at their current version, and if LW version X turns out to be incompatible, you can kiss your DP-based pipeline goodbye (or stick to an outdated version of LW). Unless the 64bit compiler-dudes have struck a secret deal for the eventuality of future continuation of these tools that is? :)

true, went mountain climbing this weekend, slipped (!)
could have ended up being a long break... :/