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raw-m
07-07-2012, 03:41 AM
I've just seen an great walk cycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf9zIdMC2MU) tutorial by Splinegod using IKboost. The pinning of feet and auto walking and changing direction was a real eye opener.

I've never played around much with IK Boost and decent tutorials are hard to find! I've been reading a lot about how it's quite buggy and hasn't had any love for a while. Before I go spending hours of time learning how it works, thought I'd ask if you thought it was a good investment in time or is a functionality that is going to fall by the wayside?

Could someone could point me in the direction if IKboost for beginners tutorials?

(Any Mac specific bugs that I should know about before I start would be welcome!).

SplineGod
07-07-2012, 05:02 AM
I have a pretty thorough IKB video thats several hours long. Im in the process of getting it posted and sorted out at liberty3d.com
It works fine in LW11. It hasnt been updated in awhile which doesnt mean its useless...in fact far from it. Modeler has been updated in a while but its still quite useful :)
I wouldnt say its any more or less buggy that any other part of LW. Most of the time whats percieved as bugs are generally user error or lack of understanding of how it works due to the lack of documentation. Lightwiki has some good docs on it. I also wanted to point out that what you saw in that video isnt even scratching the surface of what IKB is capable of. Its definately worth taking some time to learn it. I have a few more videos on youtube showing off other aspects of it. In fact if you do a search on youtube youll find quite a few more videos.
Also, feel free to contact me if you want more info. :)

raw-m
07-07-2012, 05:24 AM
Thank Larry, lovely answer! I'll keep and eye open for that Liberty3d series, as well.

I've always said that the best way to learn is to just do it, have a play. But as you say, it's very power so finding a good place to start that's not too daunting is key.... so think I'll just dive right in.

PS. Why did you use joints over bones?

SplineGod
07-07-2012, 05:38 AM
IKB is quite deep. The nice thing about it is that it can be used standalone or as a hybrid system with standard IK rigs etc. One of its greatest assets is animation management.

Ryan Roye
07-07-2012, 07:18 AM
IKB actually isn't that buggy... it is just that it is so poorly documented as Splinegod mentioned and the way it works is, at times, unorthodox in which lot of normal functions tend to get called bugs when it is really just intended program behavior. There are functions where if you aren't aware of them they can frustrate you.

Example: I believed that IKBoost only saved rotations via its pose save system, but I later found that if you select the object that holds the bones AND set it to "All" keyframe mode it will, in fact, save/load XYZ (this is more relevant for hybrid IK rigs or poses/motions with bone xyz movements)... if you select a random bone and have it set to "All" mode, the pose save/load functions differently... it's weird, but that's how it works apparently.

I still have a lot of experimentation and testing to do myself... having used IKB for years and am just now starting to discover its time-saving and animation enhancement features. It just shows that, even if only using 20% of IKB's features, it is still a hell of a lot faster than animating normally in LW.

silviotoledo
07-07-2012, 07:34 AM
who's the ik booster creator? Brad Peebler?

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 09:51 AM
Before I go spending hours of time learning how it works, thought I'd ask if you thought it was a good investment in time or is a functionality that is going to fall by the wayside?

Well... if youve done any reading of the many threads over time, u'll no doubt be aware of the views held by myself, and many others... but seeing as ur asking, I feel it would be remiss of me not to try and give u the best advice I can...

The real question is... what sort of animation are you hoping to achieve?

IKB has LONG had many lil whiz bang wow demos of this sort of stuff it does... sucked me in once a long time ago too. But what I discovered, as has everyone else who's been there, is that while its fine for doing these quick walk cycles, or characters standing around, waving around a bit and not doing much, it is great... As soon as you want to try and do ANYTHING more complex, intricate, or should I say... PERFORMANCE based, it is a COMPLETE waste of time, and you will get nowhere.

Yes, its keyframe/dopesheet/anim management (whatever u wanna call it) features... all good. Doing editing of dense keyframe data, like mocap, no problemo.

Doing performance based HAND KEYED animation with more intricate moves, etc... useless. Utterly useless.

Yes no doubt... it'll be said again that I just dont know how to use it, or that its just one view/opinion... and that ikb can do all this stuff fine. But I can only say again what I have said so MANY times before...

Where's the proof? Where are these animations to be seen???

IKB has been a part of LW for 8 years, and available as a plugin before that, and in all that time NOTHING more than a few walk cycles and a handful of low quality, wooden animations have been produced... by anyone??

To me, that speaks volumes. But as I say... its up to u what kind of work ur looking to do.

Ryan Roye
07-07-2012, 10:27 AM
IKBooster at work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UitjBxZ64RI)

Sorry IKB doesn't work for your needs. You work differently and have different production needs... I'm sure everyone gets that. Still, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to avoid exploring their options and make their own decisions concerning the animation tools at their disposal. We offer advice... you just sit there and complain about what the tool can't do (for you) and what you haven't seen yet. I've explored my options and IKB is my current solution based on countless hours of testing.

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 10:50 AM
Yes... my production needs ARE different... if you read my post, that's EXACTLY what I make the main point. Your animation is fine and all... but again... VERY basic. Characters standing around, waving a bit, and a couple of walk cycles, which is precisely what I said the limits of IKB are.

Im not complaining at all, Im doing the exact same... offering the best advice I can based on years of experience... Im not COMPLAINING about what I havent seen yet... Im jsut pointing out that if in all these years nothing has ever been done beyond the kind of basics that have been shown, that it's worth asking WHY.

And from my experience I can answer why... because IKB is not a tool capable of such things, and will hold folk back from accomplishing them.

A claim (of functionality or anthying else) is worthless if it cannot be backed up nor demonstrated... what is so wrong with that?

Scazzino
07-07-2012, 11:09 AM
I find IKBooster useful for quick and dirty animation like simple walk cycles and basic animation, where such animation isn't necessarily the main focus of the project. If you're going for award-winning character animation that is the main focus of the project, then a traditional rig may be far more capable. But if you need to get something up and going quickly I find IKBooster great. I'm currently using IKBooster and Motion Mixer along with LW11's instancing and DP_Instancer to make 1.5 million Autitons march through a massive 3D lattice for a camera fly-by animation in the opening shot of one of my shorts.

Yes, this walk cycle is a little stiff, but that's exactly what I need in this case because these Autitons are supposed to be basic robot-like software utility entities that I want to walk rather stiffly anyway. To view samples and follow along check out my new production blog (http://TheAutitonArchives.com/blog/) for The Autiton Archives (http://TheAutitonArchives.com/) series.

I look at it much like using spinning-lights rather than radiosity. Sure, full bore radiosity can be much more beautiful, but I often don't have the time to render such animated scenes when spinning-lights can look almost as good (especially when combined with ambient occlusion & glow maps) and render much much faster.

YMMV :thumbsup:

sandman300
07-07-2012, 11:17 AM
I have a pretty thorough IKB video thats several hours long. Im in the process of getting it posted and sorted out at liberty3d.com

I am very much impressed by your videos. I have your older IKB videos and I re-watch them every so often, but it always felt as if I was missing bits of important information. I'm looking forward to getting the new videos. If you could, please let us know when they are available.


A claim (of functionality or anthying else) is worthless if it cannot be backed up nor demonstrated... what is so wrong with that?
Did you ever think that by denouncing IKB you might be creating a self fulfilling prophecy by which anyone who might have been able to produce your "proof" doesn't; because you argument made them not try.

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 11:30 AM
Did you ever think that by denouncing IKB you might be creating a self fulfilling prophecy by which anyone who might have been able to produce your "proof" doesn't; because you argument made them not try.

Not at all... because in all the years its been around nothing of the like has ever been produced. And its not for want of trying either. I myself, and many others have been through the whole IKB thing LONG ago and discovered its limitations... Im not just speaking from the point of view of what I have (or havent) seen, Im talking from direct personal experience, as well as recnating the experiences of others who've tried to go beyond the basic walk cycle stuff. Ur NEVER gonna do stuff like this for instance with it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GnjRTH6cgM&feature=plcp (or if u did through dogged determination, I guarantee it'd be far harder than other methods).

Scazz... good to see u chime in. Incase you've not seen I have both recently and in the past, cited your Autition stuff as the BEST work I have ever seen produced using IKB. It does ofc fit the bill of "basic walk cycle, wobble about a bit" stuff... but still... the kudos to u stands. Im not sure id draw a line with basic on one side, and award winning on the other, with no middle ground... Something more than basic moves doesnt have to mean pixar, et al.

jasonwestmas
07-07-2012, 11:48 AM
IKB is ok. . .but that's just it, it's just OK. It really doesn't go beyond ok until you actually apply full time IK to your rig. I just don't see the advantage of baking a foot if I need to do a foot or hand pivot quickly, it's retarded to do it that way. The handle stuff is neat as you can see demonstrated in some of my videos I did way back but even the setup for that needs refining. . . It's ok.

sandman300
07-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Not at all... That's a shame.

Scazzino
07-07-2012, 11:53 AM
Thanks Rebel, That's much appreciated!

I didn't mean to imply there is no middle ground. Just that IKBooster can be used for the quick and dirty stuff. In my case, because I'm doing everything myself, I have a very limited amount of time for just the character animation related to the whole. So I found IKBooster to perfectly fit what I needed. I can spend more time refining the character animation, which I will be doing a bit on the 0090 character in the near future.

So for a one-man-show or a very small team IKBooster can indeed give a boost. If you have a larger team with more dedicated character animators and the character animation itself is more of the focus, then yes a traditional rig (or even traditional/IKBooster hybrid) could give better results. I look at it much like the difference between limited-cell animation or full-cell animation. Limited-cell is stiffer of course, but often all that is possible based on the size and scope of the project. So it can have a place in some artists toolboxes, that's all. :thumbsup:

Scazzino
07-07-2012, 11:57 AM
BTW: I'm using a hybrid rig for the Autitons in Fault Effect. The feet are using IK and the rest is using just IKBooster. That way I don't have to bake the feet. :thumbsup:

toeknee
07-07-2012, 12:07 PM
IKB was created my a Japanese man named Eno. I spoke to him recently and he told me that Newtek had let him go a long time ago. I asked if he would be interested in updating IKBooster and he seemed open to the idea. I believe he is working for some video game company right now. I kind of agree with both Larry, Charzerker and Craig. What I mean is that it is different to get use to but once you have gotten use to IKB it is hard to leave because posing is so easy. The problem is that when you want to be more precise it is harder to control on higher level projects where an art director is saying I want exactly this.
It is much easier than the standard way of doing things once you get use to it. So, for me the conundrum has been fluidity of motion in workflow. Because of this I use iKBoost if I have a cheap customer that wants me to do the impossible on an even more impossible budget and I use the Rhiggit on the higher level work. The only thing that I don't like about Rhiggit is that there are so many controls and things that you have to turn on and off that it kills some work flow to me. I think that Craig is ridiculously brilliant. And Rhiggit is one of the best investment that I have ever made. The benefit to Rhiggit that is not brought up when people do the endless war of IKB or not IKB is that it is a great rigg in that the deformations are amazing and about as good as it get in Lightwave. If you asked Larry he would probable tell you that animation and deformations are two different animals. I agree to a very large part but it sure is great to have a rigg that is powerful and deforms corect to begin with.
On the proIKB side of things being able to be fast and change things on the fly are very very very useful and powerful. Here is an example of a small animation that I did for a cheap client using IKBoost. This was modeled well the wings any way, rigged animated rendered composited in one day. http://vimeo.com/20477014 And I will agree with what Craig is going to say about the animation and that is that IKBoost is good for certain things like wings and tentacles. its true but having IKBoost as a tool in my basket has made me a good deal of money that I would not have made with out it. So yes I think that it is worth the time it takes to learn it. If you keep the idea in your head that it is one of the tool that you have to use than yes its a great thing. I would just advise that there are other ways and good reasons to use them for the right project

jasonwestmas
07-07-2012, 12:09 PM
BTW: I'm using a hybrid rig for the Autitons in Fault Effect. The feet are using IK and the rest is using just IKBooster. That way I don't have to bake the feet. :thumbsup:

yes, I have a setup too I've used IKB with before here:

https://vimeo.com/10656688


Not sure if it still works with 11 still but there it is.

Of course Rhiggit is cool because you can have more control over your deform rig. Which I learned later in life is just as important as any skeletal setup.

Scazzino
07-07-2012, 12:19 PM
yes, I have a setup too I've used IKB with before here:

https://vimeo.com/10656688


Not sure if it still works with 11 still but there it is.

Of course Rhiggit is cool because you can have more control over your deform rig. Which I learned later in life is just as important as any skeletal setup.

Yes, that's similar to what I did. The feet are separate and used as the IK goals. Because my Autiton characters are all robot-like, with floating parts, there is no deformation needed other than the fingers and the feet bending. The face is all done with morph-mixer and is not part of the IKBooster rig. So IKBooster is fast, efficient and sufficient for this particular case. If more advanced character animation is required in future webisodes, then I may move beyond IKBooster as the series progresses and I introduce newer more advanced characters. :thumbsup:

jwiede
07-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Sorry IKB doesn't work for your needs. You work differently and have different production needs... I'm sure everyone gets that. Still, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to avoid exploring their options and make their own decisions concerning the animation tools at their disposal.
RebelHill's posting never stated or implied otherwise.

We offer advice... you just sit there and complain about what the tool can't do (for you) and what you haven't seen yet.
This is a baseless accusation, and completely out of line. The OP ASKED FOR opinions of IKB's utility and capability, and RebelHill chose to provide his views. You clearly don't like or agree with RebelHill's opinion, fine, but attacking him for stating it after he was explicitly asked to do so is reprehensible.

Your suggesting his opinion lacks basis verges on the ridiculous. Considering RebelHill's level of experience with animation in general, LW animation in specific, his long-term contributions to LW animation, and the LW community as a whole, for you to characterize his opinion as simply idle complaining serves only to further damage your credibility.


I've explored my options and IKB is my current solution based on countless hours of testing.
Then perhaps instead of ad hominem attacking RebelHill simply for having a opinion you dislike, which in no way answers the OP's question, you could do something productive like explaining your own opinion of IKB?

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 01:16 PM
Well... I for one would rather not draw any IKB<>RHiggit comparisons... for the simple reason that RHiggit isnt a "system" of any sort... the product is just a plain, native, LW rig. Get yourself a few bones, add some IK and you've got (in a fundamental sense) the same thing. So RHiggit is kinda moot in this whole discussion.

The point Im coming from vis a vis IKB is how one actually goes about the task of animation itself.

And IKBs biggest flaw is its lack of any real IK constraint... or what some would call full time IK. This is what requires all the bake spots and everything else... which in turn mean that whilst keyframing your character you have to sort of "guess" or "imagine" what its gonna be once baked, and ofc, with things like foot lock down (or other body part) you're dealing with dense frames... basically a key on every frame, and this is problematic itself during the animation process, as to make changes you have to continually go back, revise, rebake to see the result, etc, etc.

With a regular rig you have far fewer frames to deal with, and small adjustments and changes in timing can be made and seen immediately, and you also ofc have much more flexibility in adjusting the graphs for these parts of your character.

The one thing Ive heard repeated again and again, and just plain don't understand however is this...

"You can change the rig on the fly so you can forget about rigging and concentrate on animating"

Now... how one is able to "forget" about the rigging when you're constantly having to go back and pin, unpin, fix, unfix, bake, rebake, etc, etc is beyond me. When instead you have a "self contained" rig that just does what it needs to do and you're able to just grab your control items and key them as you see fit and get immediate feedback in the viewport as your animation comes together... surely that is a much more animation focussed workflow where you truly can ignore the rig because you're not having to change anything on it back and forth each and every time you want a new pose, or to make some adjustment to what you have already done.

As has been said... IKB is fine for QUICK and DIRTY... and if that's all you require, then great. But quick and dirty is also the LIMIT of what can be achieved using IKB.

So in essence, Im not saying "dont use IKB"... Im much more saying, "know its limitations, and manage your expectations accordingly".

Scazzino
07-07-2012, 01:26 PM
So in essence, Im not saying "dont use IKB"... Im much more saying, "know its limitations, and manage your expectations accordingly".

Agreed! :thumbsup:

raw-m
07-07-2012, 01:29 PM
Many thanks for everyones input. I had no idea IKB would bring about such a passionate discussion!

My work is primarily moGraph, so you could see why IKB would appeal. Having said that, the main thing I have taken away is that you know how both systems work and can choose which solution accordingly.

I know about the "traditional" approach to rigging (although, still loads to learn) but know nothing about IKB. It makes sense for me to spent time getting to grips with IKB so, basically, I have options and another tool in my arsenal.

Ryan Roye
07-07-2012, 01:33 PM
The point I'm trying to make isn't to bash someone for their opinion... but if I see stuff on the forums which I know is contradictory, incorrect, or a statement made out of ignorance, such as stating that Lightwave has no built-in pose save/load system (http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=1254481&postcount=11), or the dozens of other posts trying to state opinion as fact leads me to believe the whole big idea here isn't learning in this case, but rather to try to spread ignorance through unverifiable statements. (http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=1252481&postcount=5)


So in essence, Im not saying "dont use IKB"... Im much more saying, "know its limitations, and manage your expectations accordingly".

It is easy to change your opinion when it is convenient. (http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=1252474&postcount=3)

I dunno, maybe it just bothers me to see people jump into posts asking about IKB just to say it sucks as an animation tool pretty much grates against the learning environment of these forums; there are far better ways of presenting an opinion than discouraging knowledge.

I'll leave it at that, and apologize if I offended anyone.

toeknee
07-07-2012, 01:46 PM
Hey Craig, no offense was meant and I get your point but I don't think that you see mine. The first thing I think when someone brings up IKBoost is that they want a short cut to the difficult task of CA. In grabbing something and making it move with bones in it is very easy to do with IKBoost. The whole reason and no I am not trying to make a comparison between IKBoost and Rhiggit is that the person is looking to do animation the easy way. To that point and that point alone I bring up Rhiggit because it is a rigging system in that its a great auto rigger. I agree I really wish it had the animation system that IKBoost has because I think that is the best part of IKBoost. So that was the point. This is why I made the big deal about deformations. Your rigg has in my opinion the best deformations I have ever seen in Lightwave on characters.

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 02:08 PM
unverifiable statements.

And you chide me for saying "where is the quality animation done with IKB?.. show me proof"...

Laughable, mate.


Hey Craig, no offense was meant and I get your point but I don't think that you see mine. The first thing I think when someone brings up IKBoost is that they want a short cut to the difficult task of CA.

No, no... none taken... I was merely not wanting to somehow get dragged into COMPARING to Rhiggit... cos all it really represents is plain ol constraint rigging. But I do get what you mean about folks wanting the short cut... but therein lies the rub...

There's no such thing, not with character animation.

The more automation involved in animation, the less control the animator has, which is precisely why IKB falls down when you get into more nuanced (performace) animation.

Its like saying folks want a shortcut for oil painting... there's paint by numbers, or hard graft, thats it.


I bring up Rhiggit because it is a rigging system in that its a great auto rigger. I agree I really wish it had the animation system that IKBoost has because I think that is the best part of IKBoost.

So... use RHiggit WITH ikb... You can do the hybrid rig thing using basic biped (standard and advanced no, cos they use cross constraints), or the fbx biped rigs (the plain ones, not the new edit ones). Ive no interest in somehow trying to COMPETE with IKB, cos my thing is totally different, and Ive tried to make it COMPLEMENT as much as possible if thats what folks wanna do. Again, my only gripe with IKB is in its limitations as a character animation system (or rig system really I shoud say). Its whole animation management/dopesheet razmatazz Ive never once spoken against... cos all that stuff works perfectly well.

toeknee
07-07-2012, 02:19 PM
I totally agree Craig. Thanks for the tip about the standard rig I will try that now. I am spending the day animating two people walking for a flying logo video.

RebelHill
07-07-2012, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE=toeknee;1254849tip about the standard rig[/QUOTE]

Basic... basic biped... Yknow... the one with no IKFK switching. That fella. (btw, it would be the ControlRig item, or fbxRig item in the case of using those, that ud apply IKB to, or each of the controlers themselves, whatevs... Jasons thing about hybrid-ing should give u the intro/411)

toeknee
07-07-2012, 02:37 PM
Cool I am on it now. Many thanks

Castius
07-07-2012, 03:32 PM
I agree with everything RebelHill has said up to this point.
I just wanted to add this point. Regardless where you spend time learning IK Booster or not. You need to learn LW rigging in general. Because IK Booster is nothing more than a booster and as soon as you forget that you will find yourself in a uphill battle.

I have not been around these forums much lately. So i'm glad to see people like RebelHill around helping people. He knows what he is talking about trust him.

Castius
07-07-2012, 05:16 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=724985&postcount=4

This is a rig i made with PLG IK plugin and IK Booster. You coudl use standard IK now that it has proper poly vectors. This was the most stable rig i could come up with using standard IK and IK Booster. That being said it still has all the problems brought up by RebelHill. When it comes to actually animating.

tyrot
07-07-2012, 05:42 PM
I cannot say anything about advanced level character animation but i can say about something.

In many basic animations IKB and larry schultz and Colin's videos saved theproject.

When i read an IKB thread i really feel happy because i really want to learn more - try to understand this thing..

And I hate someone else "even he is so respected rigger" comes along and shouts like a we are all fool and he is the messiah of rigging and we must follow his steps.

Brother, this is IKB cult or class- and you like it or not i (we) wanna learn more IKB and spend our pathetic lives improving our workflow..,

And your attitude is like crashing the door of our class and interrupting our- positive, inspiring, cooperative- learning process. I can ignore your - cant do - wont do - messages but you are diverting the course of discussion to somewhere else.

If you do not like this class - get something else but stop interrupting IKB threads. It is really enough! You are just hurting your well deserve respect...

ericsmith
07-07-2012, 06:46 PM
And I hate someone else "even he is so respected rigger" comes along and shouts like a we are all fool and he is the messiah of rigging and we must follow his steps.

Really?

That's how you interpret Craig's comments on this thread? Maybe you should take a breath, drink some calming tea or something, and then go back and see if that's really his attitude. I honestly don't think he's anything like you've described him in the above quote.

Eric

SplineGod
07-07-2012, 06:54 PM
who's the ik booster creator? Brad Peebler?

Ino Daisuke, the same person who created, Hardfx, Softfx, clothfx, Particle FX. :)

toeknee
07-07-2012, 07:47 PM
Hey Larry, have you talked to Ino lately? I mean The evil Jay is no longer the giant road block any more. Like I said earlyer last time I talked to him he seemed like he would be willing to work on IKBoost, but it was more Newtek that kicked him to the curb. I think now we have Rob on board holding the rains and considering that Modo just released 601 with IKinema built in they might be willing to bring him back. I know that IKBoost is no IKinema but who knows what Ino can come up with if you have a little loving and support. He seems to be a pretty sharp guy.

jasonwestmas
07-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Messiah is awesome plugin for lightwave. If there was more enthusiasm for it, I would be very excited to make more videos for LW users. It's an all around power house for rigging from scratch, animation mixing and has an auto rig from Ulven that can be adjusted with a little knowledge. It's super affordable atm too. I mean if anyone wants something that is even better than IKB and can do similar stuff, messiah is great imo.

I guess if anyone thinks Joe Cosman's tutorials are too fast or too technical for you, I'd be happy to explain or clarify.

https://sites.google.com/site/joecosman/home/tutorials/messiah-tutorials

SplineGod
07-07-2012, 08:08 PM
I havent spoken to Ino lately. I did before I became ill. I would love to see NT bring him back on board. I remember him being quite responsive to making fixes with bugs found in the dynamics or IKB systems. :)

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 03:04 AM
If you do not like this class - get something else but stop interrupting IKB threads. It is really enough! You are just hurting your well deserve respect...

Well sorry... but it aint a class here, it was a question... "before I spend x hours with ikb, what should I know?"

If you somehow think that the appropriate answer to such questioning is only to talk about some of the neat little tricks whilst ignoring the flaws, then imho THAT is an attitude which is totally unhelpful in the learning process.

As a result, you will only find me making such postings in the "what do we think of ikb?" threads... In the "what do I click/drag/whatever to do x in ikb?" threads, I dont.

toeknee
07-08-2012, 03:50 AM
I would let it go Craig. Its obvious that he is not following the conversation closely enough to get the bigger picture. In your mind and in your work you have seen that there are big flaws in LWs IKB Personally I truly love using Lightwave but the CA tools are still a very long way from being any where close to what Softimage, Maya, Messiah C4D or even Max and Blender. Its clear to me that you are fighting this subject so because you care and are really trying to help people. I say this because I use to run the Softimage user group in Houston back before 2006 and I can think back to 2003 and even then the tool set in Soft was much better than Lightwave is today. If you take it from the point of rigging, and real animation work flow. That was nine years ago and they have not caught up yet. I just hope that this Siggraph we will see some real improvements for a truly complete animation workflow. I mean thank you for giving us the ability to do really world rigging as has been proven by Craig and and others but The fact that we still have to go and find things to save poses is silly. CA is very deep and involved and workflow is every thing to be able to best create a real performance. I thinks it was time that we had the tools to really do that job. I really hope that having Lino on the team will lead to these improvements.

tyrot
07-08-2012, 04:32 AM
toeknee

I really do not care about "big picture".. I have a workflow tool here called IKB - it is completely "free" and if you excuse me i will try to learn more in these threads. And also how you can control MOCAP better than IKB? That video saved us days - thanks to Larry. I still cannot believe that we have that much power within LW through IKB.. After watching that video we made a quick demo within one day - completed the shot and it was ready to go .

I read these kind of threads hundreds of times, T4D was burying IKB as far as i remember for years and others also tried..

Strangely people who wants to bury these threads somehow have an alternative method and that method usually is "not entirely free".

Because as i said i totally have respect RebelHill's efforts. This guy is a rig legend and i dont think we will have more skilled person than he is

Thanks to Larry for investing his time and saving IKB. I remember early threads some users were simply crucifying him because he was trying to teach a tool... What a weird thing to do! How DARE an user can try to understand IKB....when there is totally classic way of approach to rigging... and when i have plugins to sell for it !

we may not have such a lovely puzzle called IKB if NT slashes it. So these threads are also very important for future versions of IKB.

I hope you understand my "bigger picture" here..

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 04:54 AM
Strangely people who wants to bury these threads somehow have an alternative method and that method usually is "not entirely free".

Im sorry... but this kind of accusation I take great offence to. One could just as easily say that Larry (named just for want of example rather directly personal) pushes IKB and never talks about its flaws because he's looking to sell IKB tut vids... such notions are RIDICULOUS.

There has been no attempt to "bury" this or any other thread, but merely to point out the limits available in a given tool (which the OP was asking opinions on to begin with). Ive said it MANY times already... nothing wrong with IKBs keyframe management features, and it is good for mocap editing, but it is a poor and cumbersome overall rigging tool that is far outclassed by other options.

And these alternatives that you mention are just as FREE... the regular constraint system in LW is there for all, and did you happen to notice I give a FREE version of my tools for those who don't wanna go to the hassle of building it themselves??

I hate to say it, buddy... but the truth is not only are your speculative accusations utterly baseless, your "I dont care about the bigger picture" attitude is totally unhelpful in any meaningful discussion.

Thats the last Im gonna say to this side of the argument.

tyrot
07-08-2012, 05:07 AM
Ok..as i said - i have great respect to you and your efforts to explain rigging as a concept.

But i have over 30 IKB tutorials free (thanks to colin and others) and majority of Larry's material is also free.

All i am saying - let us discuss and improve IKB knowing its problems and build a common sense for future updates..

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 05:26 AM
let us discuss and improve IKB knowing its problems and build a common sense for future updates..

No complaints there... Id be ALL for that, for instance if IKB had real IK constraint in it (switchable), and or operation with a full constraint system, then you'd have something much more akin to motionbuilder's rig... which IS fantastic.

Ofc the problem there is that the system hasnt been changed or updated pretty much at all since it was first packaged in 8 YEARS ago... the original developer is no longer with NT, and so far as Ive seen, there are no plans to update it in any way, and NT are (I suspect) working on wholly new and different tools with respect to rigging/CA.

Hence, in addition to everything else, I personally doubt IKB has any future beyond its current state. But as for where LW goes in this regard in the future is a whole other debate (for, I believe a whole other thread).

SplineGod
07-08-2012, 05:52 AM
Its really sad that LW or aspects of LW cant be discussed without the same old detractors. We get that some people dont like IKB, but how many times does a dead horse need to be beaten? Is talking about IKB beating a dead horse? How is trying to learn about the software a bad idea? Most people who use IKB are pretty aware of its weaknesses.In fact many of us are aware of LWs weaknesses in general but we still use it because we feel the benefits outweigh the negatives. This applies to IKB in general.
For every single weakness pointed out by the detractors of IKB, similar weaknesses can and have been pointed out by many who feel LW in general is a bad CA tool.Again some feel that LWs benefits are better then its flaws and will even go to great lengths to write specialized plugins to fill in those perceived gaps. I come and have always come to these forums to share what I know about LW with others and to also learn from others in turn. The last thing I want to hear over and over is that my workflow, tools of choice or whatever are rubbish and that I MUST purchase some plugin or I MUST abandon LW for something, that in someones opinion, is superior. It makes no sense to simply show up repeatedly to bash in the same tired old way. Ive always worked to find solutions around problems not sit and complain about whey the software is rubbish. I also make it a point to never try and win someone over to my POV by intimating that their workflow or tools may be lacking by denegrating their work or implying that they cant do as well as I do because of their workflow/tool choices.
Ive been away for many months due to illness and the last thing I hoped to return to on these forums is this same old tired basing by the same people of tools myself or others, for whatever reasons, like to use. I was hoping that people would learn to take a more postive approach to the tools or if theres nothing USEFUL to say about them, to move on. If IKB possibly has no future then its also quite likely that the current CA system will be obsolete. Should we simply abandon both? Obviously we need to use whats available now. I dont think anyone cares as to whether the current IKB has a future or not so long as whats good about it survives and is improved and whats bad is left behind. That logic actually applies to all aspects of LW :)

Cageman
07-08-2012, 06:25 AM
Pointing out flaws and pitfalls with any given tool is quite helpful, to be totally honest. I don't see why discussions about IKB should be different?

Just because some people know about the issues with IKB, doesn't mean that everyone know about them, certanly not newcommers. By clearly stating what is good AND bad with it, is the only way forward.

Wether or not someone see that as being negative... well... what can I say?

LWs CA-system has been worked on since forever, IKB not so much since the initial release. Even in LW11, the traditional tools have been worked on (speeding up IK-calculations among other things), while IKB has not been touched.

If that is any indication, I would say that IKBs future is dead... that doesn't mean that ideas regarding it could be implemented in LWs standard CA-tools at some point. But as others have said; I've yet to see high quality work done with IKB... and the goal, I think for any CA-app, is to aim for high quality output. If IKB can't produce that as an animationsystem, then maybe it isn't the way forward for that kind of stuff.

Hence that, whatever you learn regarding IKB (rigging and animation), might not transition well into the future of LW, or into other applications, where, imho, traditional rigging do, to a much greater extent, at least when it comes to transfer your knowledge of LW into an application like Maya.

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 06:26 AM
I fail to see how pointing out flaws where they exist is "bashing"...

If someone asks an open question "whattaya think of tool X?"... then they need to hear the good AND the bad. To do otherwise is to do a disservice to the questioner, and, I would say, tantamount to lying by omission.

Not once has anyone in this thread suggested that someone MUST purchase this, or MUST leave LW for that... not ONCE. At least when Im criticising the shortcomings of a given tool/workflow/whatever, I place my criticisms firmly on that tool and do NOT attempt to put words in other peoples mouths, nor mischaracterise what they have said, nor their motives. So Im sorry if you feel Ive pi$$ed on your favourite shoes, but I believe in both praise and criticism where they are deserved.

And again... unless one can offer evidence, or demonstration that a given criticism is wrong, misguided, or ill informed, then simply stating that said criticism is nothing more than an "opinion" is utterly worthless, and advances nothing.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 06:40 AM
sure, someone asks a question, we will gladly take the old horse out of the closet and beat it once more just to make sure it's dead, and if need be, go all frankenstein on it and bring it back to life. ;) These are the rules of software imo.

I'll just add that when I see a better option I tend to point it out, even if it isn't free and takes a little more discipline to learn. When I do this stuff for a living, the non-free stuff pays me back ten-fold anyway.

SplineGod
07-08-2012, 06:51 AM
Again, those same arguements can and have been laid against LW in general for just about every aspect of it. How is one to determine whether someones idea of "rubbish" is simply that person not liking the tool or the workflow vs the tool or workflow actually being rubbish? Please quantify "rubbish". Perhaps IKB is better in some circumstances for some things and not so good in others...but hey, havent we heard this for years about LW in general compared to just about any other app? Ive seen rubbish produced by many people using many different apps. So do I judge the usefulness of those apps simply by looking at someone elses work? Ive seen both sides of this slippery slope:
"This persons CA animation sucks therefore the software sucks"
"This persons CA sucks, so maybe they suck but the software is great"
"This persons CA is great, therefor the software must be great too"
"This persons CA animation is great but thats because theyre just very good despite that the software sucks".
I see that typically people tend to blame the software. Everytime I see bad attempts to produce good fire with HVS and particles in LW do I conclude that its simply impossible or maybe learning the software a bit deeper might be warranted? Do I wait for something better or do my best to learn what I have now? Not everyone can afford to always buy the next best thing or simply doesnt want to keeping throwing money at problems. I dont have a problem with people specifically pointing out flaws as long as it isnt hammered to death over and over. Instead of repeating it why not provide a solution? The best people I ever worked with were not focused on bashing software but finding ways to make it work. Many times throwing money at a problem wasnt a solution either.

Cageman
07-08-2012, 07:15 AM
Instead of repeating it why not provide a solution? The best people I ever worked with were not focused on bashing software but finding ways to make it work. Many times throwing money at a problem wasnt a solution either.

And the solution that RH gives, is to learn traditional rigging or use one of his free riggs if you do not have time to learn rigging for the project at hand.

He has also outlined why he thinks IKB is a poor solution for rigging and animation (as a one stop tool for it), and what pitfalls there are, but at the same time mentioned that you can use IKB in tandem with traditional tools.

I honestly think that his suggestions and reasoning are well within what should be classified as "Provide a solution" and certanly not bashing.

OnlineRender
07-08-2012, 07:19 AM
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEk4bTYaruFy5MIHYyH1sLSJ3o_yhfw c5IAAi1P9DWDYrxVj4sGQ
I think the lack of good character animation regarding LightWave gives a good indication that LightWave is severally lacking in this area " not saying it cant be done " just saying compared to other apps for example weight painting in blender is 10x more intuitive than LW.

however if IK works for you it works for you...simples

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 07:21 AM
Again you're saying "this person"... Im saying ANY person. Where is a SINGLE example of higher quality animation done in IKB by ANYONE, ever (that isn't just some simple walk cycle, or bobbing about.)

And Im all about finding solutions to... but sometimes there is no solution available within a given confine, what is one to do then... how does one provide a solution that does not exist?

If I keep seeing LOTS of bad examples of fire done using HVs, but see the occasional (even one off) good example, I conclude that the system is capable, in the right hands. If however I NEVER see a good example (despite the tool having existed for YEARS and passed through the hands of many, including my own), then I have to question if it is indeed capable, and if those who claim it is cannot backup their claims with examples, then i can only doubt the validity of that claim, not to mention how it is that the claimant has arrived at such a conclusion to begin with.

Have you seen my dog... he can quote shakespeare.
Can you show me?
No.
...?

tyrot
07-08-2012, 07:25 AM
cageman - dont you think IKB is under constant attack ...for years? I have never ever witnessed such bashing campaign over a tool in LW history.

I KNOW its weak points and IT is really OK. Lightwave is FULL of weak points. It is really ok. Instead of leaving LW or IKB i wanna learn more workarounds..

Am i becoming a heretic in high order of Rigging Church because i wanna spend my time with IKB.. ?

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 07:29 AM
I fear you've missed the point slightly to what I (and cageman) have said...

The workaround to IKBs weaknesses is to use other tools in LW outside of IKB. To suggest that using IKB is some sort of heresy is to again totally misunderstand, and mischaracterise the conversation and points made. Ive stated the things in IKB that are good, the things that are bad, and therefore drawn conclusions about its usefulness and where its limits lie... nothing more.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 07:31 AM
Blaming software is a totally ligit thing if there is no proof to say the opposite. I think that is what Craig has said about 50 times now. I haven't seen it either in a performance based FK/IK switching context. Just those neat little IKB handles, the linker, and the fashionable menu system. I like the idea instant hot boxes that can appear anywhere on the screen at any time. But this has nothing to do with a solid IK/ FK system, which is what quite a few people have pointed out here to anyone who does not know this.

Cageman
07-08-2012, 07:36 AM
cageman - dont you think IKB is under constant attack ...for years? I have never ever witnessed such bashing campaign over a tool in LW history.

I KNOW its weak points and IT is really OK. Lightwave is FULL of weak points. It is really ok. Instead of leaving LW or IKB i wanna learn more workarounds..

Am i becoming a heretic in high order of Rigging Church because i wanna spend my time with IKB.. ?

It certanly has its uses, but not so much for full blown character rigs where you need solid animators comming from other applications to sit down and produce high quality work. The aim for LW is to get to a point where you could do that, LW isn't there yet in its rigging capabilites, but a hell of a lot closer to it than IKB.

Also, when thinking about LW-users who wants to learn rigging, I can not recommend IKB because it is so different to other systems. Learning traditional rigging in LW will give you knowledge that you can bring over to other applications to a much higher degree compared to learning how to use IKBoost.

If you are serious about rigging and animation, LW is a capable software, but if you suddenly need something extra, that XSI or Maya has, you will learn that stuff more quickly if you know traditional rigging in LW. And trust me, at some point you will end up in that corner.

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 08:22 AM
It certanly has its uses, but not so much for full blown character rigs...
at some point you will end up in that corner.

I largely agree to an extent... but I do think it comes back to what I said in my initial post in this thread... its about deciding (ahead of time) how far one wants to go with ones animation.

If a couple basic, nondescript walkcycles or similar is all you're ever gonna want, then you may as well just go for IKB as anything else. If you're after getting into more performance based work, or intricate animations, then its probably advisable to skip over IKB entirely... and ofc if tis crazy real deforms, with muscle sims, skin sliding, facial mocap and avatar like results, then its better to skip LW altogether.

Hieron
07-08-2012, 09:15 AM
? Knowing little about rigging and CA, this thread seemed interesting to read. Nice opinions are shared and then it turns sour?

What a fuzz about a perfectly fine answer from RH. If anything, people should be happy that experienced peers give their opinion when the OP asks specifically:


...Before I go spending hours of time learning how it works, thought I'd ask if you thought it was a good investment in time or is a functionality that is going to fall by the wayside?
...

To which the reponse was:


...
The real question is... what sort of animation are you hoping to achieve?

....

Doing performance based HAND KEYED animation with more intricate moves, etc... useless. Utterly useless.

.....
IKB has been a part of LW for 8 years, and available as a plugin before that, and in all that time NOTHING more than a few walk cycles and a handful of low quality, wooden animations have been produced... by anyone??

...To me, that speaks volumes. But as I say... its up to u what kind of work ur looking to do.


What is wrong with that answer? I thought it was quite valuable and exactly what the OP asked for. Not everyone on this forum has been actively checking out IKboost threads constantly over the years, so for some it is good to know of the limitations and not spend their limited hours if they expect to need more control.

Yes, for others it may be old news.. so what. More people read this than the handful that tend to reply.

CaptainMarlowe
07-08-2012, 09:44 AM
+1

stiff paper
07-08-2012, 10:57 AM
Well, let's see...

Invent entire opposing points of view that nobody has ever put forward and then point at them, shouting - check.

Invent statements that nobody ever made to rant against and shout about some more - check.

Insist that you haven't done anything and it's really all these other horrible people who've been attacking you like a baying mob for ever - check.

When all of those things fail, attack the man - check.

Congratulations IKB fans. I now think all IKB fans are irritating passive/aggressive 13 year olds. Boy, way to make yourselves look good.

(Larry, this doesn't mean you.)

ericsmith
07-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Knowing little about rigging and CA, this thread seemed interesting to read. Nice opinions are shared and then it turns sour?


Yeah, this is unfortunately the usual course for discussions on this topic.


What is wrong with that answer? I thought it was quite valuable and exactly what the OP asked for. Not everyone on this forum has been actively checking out IKboost threads constantly over the years, so for some it is good to know of the limitations and not spend their limited hours if they expect to need more control.

Yes, for others it may be old news.. so what. More people read this than the handful that tend to reply.

That's the thing. The "detractors" typically point out specific technical issues that can be clearly demonstrated, and then a handful of people take it as a personal insult, and somehow hope that the intensity of their accusations at the offending poster will somehow make them true.

Eric

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 12:21 PM
Congratulations IKB fans. I now think all IKB fans are irritating passive/aggressive 13 year olds. Boy, way to make yourselves look good.

Well...

Whilst I (obviously) don't think that cries of "detractor/basher/hater" provide any kind of reasoned argument or viewpoint, Im not sure that statements such as this help the overall discussion either, other than to add fuel to the fire. This thread is riding the rail on 2 wheels already, dont we think?

geo_n
07-08-2012, 12:52 PM
Can we just see character animations from lw?
IKB or standard way :D
Where are the good animation that's not from messiah, maya, xsi...rendered in lw? So few, so rare like Halley's Comet. :D

Isn't 2D animation basically FK style frame by frame on 1s,2s,4s? Can't IKB do that?

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 01:50 PM
Isn't 2D animation basically FK style frame by frame on 1s,2s,4s? Can't IKB do that?

Sure why not. . .just have to "make" every single frame by hand then. But at least you wouldn't have to hand draw it. :D

geo_n
07-08-2012, 01:59 PM
Sure why not. . .just have to "make" every single frame by hand then. But at least you wouldn't have to hand draw it. :D

Yeah I've seen really good animators with simple fk rigs probably doing it that way.
But anyway deformations are more problematic in lw imho than this issue.
Btw my collegue who worked at Ghibili as animator said 3d guys are lazy just clicking to make stuff move. Frame by frame by hand. No problem :thumbsup:

RebelHill
07-08-2012, 02:30 PM
3d guys are lazy

Well, as I like to say... If you've got it, flaunt it.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 02:37 PM
Yeah I've seen really good animators with simple fk rigs probably doing it that way.
But anyway deformations are more problematic in lw imho than this issue.
Btw my collegue who worked at Ghibili as animator said 3d guys are lazy just clicking to make stuff move. Frame by frame by hand. No problem :thumbsup:

yep, but the other way to look at it is. . . if you can let the computer software do a "little" work for you in some ways, that will give you the capacity to put more work into the project in other ways. Plus it's always good to spend the time to setup your scenes now so you can save time later.

Dexter2999
07-08-2012, 03:21 PM
Btw my collegue who worked at Ghibili as animator said 3d guys are lazy just clicking to make stuff move. Frame by frame by hand. No problem :thumbsup:

I take issue with that! I'm not lazy! Well, actually I am , but that isn't why I do 3D!... I do 3D because I can't draw.



OT: The Ghibli Museum in Mitaka was one of my favorite things in Tokyo. Cool for the animation but awesome for my love of Art Nouveau architecture. The attention to details is amazing. And I have a hard time thinking of anything more adorable than 120 Japanese kids between 3 and 6 running around having fun watching cartoons.

stiff paper
07-08-2012, 03:51 PM
This thread is riding the rail on 2 wheels already, dont we think?

But two wheels is such a low grade thrill. I figured we'd come this far so I might as well give it that extra push so we could be cartwheeling backwards, out of control and on fire.

Ryan Roye
07-08-2012, 03:54 PM
But two wheels is such a low grade thrill. I figured we'd come this far so I might as well give it that extra push so we could be cartwheeling backwards, out of control and on fire.

Well... at least there's ONE thing we all agree on :)

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 04:30 PM
I take issue with that! I'm not lazy! Well, actually I am , but that isn't why I do 3D!... I do 3D because I can't draw.


We should start a thread that says "Why we choose to do 3D." :)

I'm adding a hexagon texture that has a normalized bump to a sci-fi character in Zbrush, I certainly am glad I don't have to draw that per-frame. ;)

Castius
07-08-2012, 06:02 PM
It's hard to take it seriously without script or SDK support. All the features that are good are locked away inside. Even if i did like it i would find it hard to incorporate into a production pipeline.

Also i reported bugs with IKB when Ino still worked for Newtek. Ever bug fix resulted in new bugs. It was very troubling. I have always pleaded with Newtek to take the feature of IKB and incorporated them as base functions of the application. There is no reason to be even be talking about IKB. Because in reality IKB feature should just be individual features.

That is why these conversation boil down to arguments. Because as users we are forced to talk about IKB as a whole. However each part of the application has it's own strengths. So when Newtek puts another round of development time behind CA. We hopefully be able to have a real conversation about features. And not just the name of a plugin that was slapped into the application.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 07:33 PM
It's hard to take it seriously without script or SDK support. All the features that are good are locked away inside. Even if i did like it i would find it hard to incorporate into a production pipeline.

Also i reported bugs with IKB when Ino still worked for Newtek. Ever bug fix resulted in new bugs. It was very troubling. I have always pleaded with Newtek to take the feature of IKB and incorporated them as base functions of the application. There is no reason to be even be talking about IKB. Because in reality IKB feature should just be individual features.

That is why these conversation boil down to arguments. Because as users we are forced to talk about IKB as a whole. However each part of the application has it's own strengths. So when Newtek puts another round of development time behind CA. We hopefully be able to have a real conversation about features. And not just the name of a plugin that was slapped into the application.

Yes, sadly this has been true since I can remember. Now we have this new bullet, flocking and instancing but where is the inter-connectivity. Very shallow in this regard. . .even still.

SplineGod
07-08-2012, 07:50 PM
I totally agree Jason.
Ive suggested many many times that I dont care if IKB survives as is. What I want is the functionaly preserved and enhanced and just to be a natural part of LW rather then a plugin. I do remember though that Ino was always good about fixing issues in a timely fashion.

DigitalSorcery8
07-08-2012, 08:19 PM
Yes, sadly this has been true since I can remember. Now we have this new bullet, flocking and instancing but where is the inter-connectivity. Very shallow in this regard. . .even still.

Actually, I recall this being one of the BIG worries on the Hardcore forums - when moving in the direction we are now going in. CORE was supposed to be an environment where everything (eventually) would work together. It took far too long and didn't impress enough people - but the goal was perfect. Integration of all aspects of LW where everything would talk to everything. So far I haven't seen anything in LW10 or 11 that shows the various aspects of LW are talking TO each other - the inter-connectivity. I recall hrgiger saying that he feared that Newtek would just add on cool plugins and continue to ignore that inter-connectivity. So far... I think his fears are justified - cool stuff as Jason mentioned, but nothing is talking to each other. :stumped:

Serling
07-08-2012, 08:57 PM
What's an animator? :D

(Just thought I'd lighten the mood here a bit.)

Serling
07-08-2012, 09:09 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe I read somewhere this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiARsQSlzDc) was animated in Maya.

A good artist uses the tools he has to the best of his ability and produces awesome work.

A bad one can't be saved by the best software out there.

I would rather be a good animator with crappy tools than a crappy animator using the best tools. :thumbsup:

MaDDoX
07-08-2012, 09:18 PM
IKB discussions are the best because they inevitably bring the community together - even if just to fight! ^_^


how one is able to "forget" about the rigging when you're constantly having to go back and pin, unpin, fix, unfix, bake, rebake, etc, etc is beyond me.
Well Craig, for fairness' sake, the HIK/MotionBuilder rig also requires you to pin, unpin and set reach keys that many times make the FK and IK rigs syncing fail, requiring further direct key cleanups - which you probably know if you've ever done any serious, long-length production animation with it.
The baking process is indeed a stiffing hassle, for two main reasons. First, because it doesn't let you tune up the animation curves "after the fact". Setting the ease-in and ease-out is critical to assure proper swinging follow-through and to more easily prepare the anticipation of bolder moves, and having to undo and re-do bakes as you tune that up in the actual controller is utterly slow and awkward. Second, because it ties you to a fixed frame rate. If you're working for game production it's a huge plus to be able to switch the frame rate in the import dialog of your game engine - as you do in Unity. That allows you to tune up the final size of your project, especially noticeable when you have many animations in it.


Where is a SINGLE example of higher quality animation done in IKB by ANYONE, ever (that isn't just some simple walk cycle, or bobbing about.)

I also think that's not an objective criteria. Any skilled animator can do a quality frame-by-frame animation in 3D, the question is - what's the point? I can certainly produce any sort of quality animation using an IK Boost rig, but I'm perfectly aware that if it involves "contacts" (to ground, tables, walls, etc) I'd spend at least twice the time than using other alternatives. Besides, IKB controllers always move on screen-space, meaning I have to constantly resort to flat ortho views for precision moves. Then I either have to switch between these views constantly, or stick to a multi-view setup which is quite slow in Lightwave and leaves me with less screen space for my actual scene view. Besides, using those IKB controllers to set rotations is, quite frankly, a joke. It's like using Maya's Channel Box to set controller rotations instead of grabbing the gizmo and rotating it directly. Then the big question is, why would I or any other qualified animator do it? To "beat" your challenge and appease some forum crowd? Alas, my hourly price is not that low :) Seriously, my point is that IKB is better than straightforward FK-only frame by frame animation, and if the later is knowingly capable of pulling off quality animation, why wouldn't IKB?

Now, with pure-IKB it is much harder to pull off the kind of character animation you're talking about - biped/quadruped, lower limbs connected to the ground - than with a regular IK-based rig, I have absolutely no doubt of that. Nevertheless, If I absolutely had to pull off this kind of animation in Lightwave, I'd probably use IKB + IK, in spite of IKB's interface oddities. It's still the most flexible 'floating limb' posing system for Lightwave.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2012, 09:25 PM
Actually, I recall this being one of the BIG worries on the Hardcore forums - when moving in the direction we are now going in. CORE was supposed to be an environment where everything (eventually) would work together. It took far too long and didn't impress enough people - but the goal was perfect. Integration of all aspects of LW where everything would talk to everything. So far I haven't seen anything in LW10 or 11 that shows the various aspects of LW are talking TO each other - the inter-connectivity. I recall hrgiger saying that he feared that Newtek would just add on cool plugins and continue to ignore that inter-connectivity. So far... I think his fears are justified - cool stuff as Jason mentioned, but nothing is talking to each other. :stumped:

Yes, this is all very familiar to me. Great goals in mind for core and the SDK. . . poorly executed. . .obviously. Like I mentioned earlier when 11 was just released, I'll be fully convinced that workflow is not a primary concern for Newtek if we get more of this same old thing for LW12, where we have just a mass of isolated plugins. Plugins that are pretty cool potentially but really don't reach out to the other parts of the program and some even get fully ignored and become outdated. . . Ignoring the older stuff is ok if it is replaced, but I don't see that being done evenly throughout the app.

Point being. . .It's counter productive to leave certain features and workflow design go unattended for so many releases and then hope to cover things up or counterbalance the void through adding on a new bunch of immature features that either don't support the new, or don't replace the old. This all just sounds too familiar to me.

I dunno, maybe the designers at newtek need to play or watch more sports or play co-op video games. Just like teams, plugins don't win when they don't play ball together.

IKB could work with Lightwave better no doubt about that but, letting people go who help develop the CA side of lightwave was really stupid I think. I wouldn't care so much if Craig and Eric weren't the only CA plugin/script people for Lightwave, but nobody from NT seems to care a lick about it. I say CA because it is the highest standard for rigging. Managers I work for want that when they need it and when I can't confidently say that LW has the tools and/or efficiency they need for whatever animation style then that is one more reason to say no to animation in Lightwave.

Castius
07-08-2012, 10:19 PM
On a more positive note about LW development. Is that they have been trying to not repeat the old mistakes... as much. All the current rigging i much better than it was before. So if they go back at i'm sure it will be much better. Fingers crossed

Ryan Roye
07-09-2012, 12:41 AM
I thought I'd post my updated rig here just for giggles. ~95% of the controls are click/drag. Even wrist rotations. I honestly don't know how anyone can tolerate the double-click method of animating things... I hate clicking on something first in order to manipulate it. In the future if it gets to the point where IKB becomes vaporware... Newtek had better have something that replaces its functionality or I'll need to find new animation software. But, old software does not mean it is not worth using... I still use paint shop pro, and that was made over 12 years ago and is no longer updated.

Check it out! (http://www.delura.tanadrine.com/image_manualupload/RIG_Click-drag-style.zip)

-This is a hybrid rig, legs are IK, upper body is meant to be used with IKB's method of "IK". I know there's a way to do IK legs with IKB... but I haven't had the time to explore that via expermiments. I actually thought IK legs via IKB was useless before I saw Splinegod's video... admittedly I'm not entirely sold on it, but it is worth experimenting.

-additional neck movement can be achieved by selecting the head controller and pressing y.

wrightyp100
07-09-2012, 02:18 AM
But Colin's bear is amazing. When I first saw it I nearly wet myself laughing. That animation was done as a dig at his university course. He wasn't touting it as an epic feat or anything. I've seen plenty of terrible animations from all software. Not sure what I'm getting at, but believe me its awesome. ;)

RebelHill
07-09-2012, 04:16 AM
the HIK/MotionBuilder rig also requires you to pin, unpin and set reach keys...

Yes you're right, it does, but its right there onscreen at all times on the character panel, which I find a better interface (namely cos is it pinned or not is easy to forget, in MB I only have to dart mine eye). Whilst IKFK blending/switching is gonna be par for the course on ANY rig with that feature.. u gotta tell the system which method u want somehow.

That said... much as I love MB, Im STILL (like a GREAT many animators out there) not sold on it as a direct hand animation tool, and again for the same reason of the sometimes quite dense keys that have to be laid down.

But then I did ALWAYS defend IKBs mocap editing abilities...


Any skilled animator can do a quality frame-by-frame animation in 3D, the question is - what's the point?

You're right... absolutely.

My point, since long ago, about not seeing any "quality" animation done in IKB isnt so much that the system is incapable... a GOOD animator could just FK his way through on every frame and still produce top quality work.

My point (historically) was ALWAYS that to achieve such in IKB would require more time and effort than other methods, and therefore be a waste. And therefore the reason such work has never been seen is because any he who could and has tried has quickly come to learn what a non-starter the tool is for these purposes. Yes the DETAIL of that point has been lost a lil bit, both in the discussions, and to myself somewhat over time... so thankyou for bringing me back to it again.

And I fully agree with what Castius said on page last... if IKB could be ripped apart, and areas of its functionality be put in alongside all the other constraint and keyframe tools in LW, then we would ALL benefit enourmously... IKBs problem, seen from that perspective, is that the good parts are inexorably tied to the bad.

mav3rick
07-09-2012, 04:45 AM
IKB imho is far from production (animator) friendly tool.... its so clumsy and hard to handle that i can animate in LW FK faster than with IKB. LW IK vs IKB is out of discussion... to make myself clear .. i am not telling some of IKB tech is bad it is just hard to put it into friendly enviroment. modo 601 animate is closest thing to IKB and it also irritates me .

jasonwestmas
07-09-2012, 07:17 AM
On a more positive note about LW development. Is that they have been trying to not repeat the old mistakes... as much. All the current rigging i much better than it was before. So if they go back at i'm sure it will be much better. Fingers crossed

Yes, I'll give it that. I was actually impressed with the stability and performance of Lightwave 11 rigs and deforms. That was only 2 of 10+ things I wanted to see improved for animation these past 6 years but kudos to NT for making that happen. Definitely an excuse to do some more complex things in lightwave.

MaDDoX
07-09-2012, 11:28 PM
Yes the DETAIL of that point has been lost a lil bit, both in the discussions, and to myself somewhat over time... so thankyou for bringing me back to it again.
NP, you know in general lines I do agree with your points (as it's easy to perceive from my post), I just felt that the specific statement was open for some misinterpretation and fail to convey it's (true) point.
Now, if you challenge anyone to pull off a quality, complex biped animation in IKB faster than with a proper, traditional rig, considering the same animator having equal proficiency in both tools.. well, I'd side with you, 'coz I'd also like to see that :thumbsup:

As for the mobu rig, I got used to its quirks - and tbh I've got so many half-baked rigs in the past that I've learned to rely on this rig's super-quick setup, stability and pose-ability. For the record, I know that's configurable but your rig scares me to death. Too many buttons ;)


601 animate is closest thing to IKB and it also irritates me .
The new pose tool in 601 is surely inspired on IKB's "ways", but with much superior stability. Still in a sense it's less powerful, or at least doesn't try to "replace" true IK. For instance, IIRC for you to "lock" rotation axes you have to go through an actual IK setup. But hey, it may be used hand-in-hand with a great IK system, so what's your gripe with it? You got me curious, since I haven't had the time to play with it much - but I sure will.


I was actually impressed with the stability and performance of Lightwave 11 rigs and deforms.
Interestingly, I found the Modo rigs to be somewhat slow.. not exactly sure why, maybe I had sub-d on all the time, but to my sad surprise I found it to be sensibly slower than a similar rig in Maya, or even a LW rig in low-res. Maybe it was just the demo scene I've tested it with, if not I hope they improve it ASAP.

djwaterman
07-10-2012, 01:18 AM
That bear animation was awesome.

Serling
07-10-2012, 01:43 AM
That bear animation was awesome.

"Deeply moving" and "inspiring" are the words I use to describe it. (Best part is the "thanks for nothing" on the closing slate.) :D

geo_n
07-10-2012, 04:17 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe I read somewhere this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiARsQSlzDc) was animated in Maya.

A good artist uses the tools he has to the best of his ability and produces awesome work.

A bad one can't be saved by the best software out there.

I would rather be a good animator with crappy tools than a crappy animator using the best tools. :thumbsup:

Too extreme idea. It would be best to be a good animator with good tools which is very common today if you look at the forums with maya and blender animations. Competition is fierce actually.
A good artist with outdated tools will be overtaken sooner or later. Its like sports. Talent can only get you to a point, the rest is hardwork, discipline, and best training. That video only shows that a maya user had nothing better to do. Where's the videos that show many good ca in lightwave not done in messiah, maya, xsi? Like Halleys comet.

Cageman
07-10-2012, 04:36 AM
Can we just see character animations from lw?
IKB or standard way :D

http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96095&highlight=rhinos
http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96144&highlight=transformer+train
http://vimeo.com/45220137#
http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104227&highlight=squirrel

From ontop of my head... non of those projects used IBK, as far as I know.

geo_n
07-10-2012, 04:53 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96095&highlight=rhinos
http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96144&highlight=transformer+train
http://vimeo.com/45220137#
http://forums.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104227&highlight=squirrel

From ontop of my head... non of those projects used IBK, as far as I know.

Seen all of them, they're very old. Anything new?
Check out other forums, there's always something new.

Cageman
07-10-2012, 05:07 AM
Seen all of them, they're very old. Anything new?
Check out other forums, there's always something new.

Oh.. I thought you were talking about the quality level LW is capable of. And, yes... they are old, but nontheless valid as a proof to what you can achive with standard rigging techniques in LW. The Rhinos I think, were using Maestro though.

EDIT: Regarding anything new... I'm sure there are stuff out there that we do not know about, and the artist(s) might not be able to tell anyone. The squirrel thing, for example... Mr.Rid waited about 1 year before posting about it here on the forums.

RebelHill
07-10-2012, 05:12 AM
There's...

http://vimeo.com/26293392
http://vimeo.com/26931321
http://vimeo.com/16671631
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GnjRTH6cgM&feature=plcp
http://vimeo.com/38591304 (a lot is mocap, other shots are hand ani done in LW)

littlewaves
07-10-2012, 05:37 AM
REVEREND HILL: Doctor!! Doctor, you're going the wrong way. You're going towards the bow.

DOCTOR SPLINE: That's right Reverend,....

REVEREND HILL: Wait, wait. You can't get out at that end.

DOCTOR SPLINE Why not?

REVEREND HILL: Because we're settling by the bow. The bow is underwater. If you go anywhere lets go back toward the stern and get out through the engine room, alright?

DOCTOR SPLINE The engine rooms gone!!

REVEREND HILL: How do you know that?

DOCTOR SPLINE The explosions, you must have felt them!! The only way out is forward!!

RANDOM L'WAVER: Please, come with us Reverend.

REVEREND HILL: Did you,...Did you check the engine room? Did you see it?

DOCTOR SPLINE I don't have to, we're going forward!!

REVEREND HILL: YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY DAMMIT!!!!



you've all seen The Poseidon Adventure right?

Cageman
07-10-2012, 06:15 AM
This one is pretty cool as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BLoxOqFoEY&list=UUY9ptHPKZEkn4XxQcEJet8w&index=5&feature=plcp

geo_n
07-10-2012, 07:45 AM
There's...

http://vimeo.com/26293392
http://vimeo.com/26931321
http://vimeo.com/16671631
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GnjRTH6cgM&feature=plcp
http://vimeo.com/38591304 (a lot is mocap, other shots are hand ani done in LW)

Besides the wolf, which has been posted a few times already, they're not doable in iKB or even feasable with IKB? The egg and the owl, they don't really do much. The ruin has nice environment and effects but the character is not really "performance based" work. A bit stiff and not on par to the level the other work done in the film which looks really great.

This is a sample that is stretchy, versatile movements, good deformation, complex character features not just a rubber skintight character, subtle details cloth, etc.
http://www.850meters.com/
http://www.atomictoon.fr/wip/crbst_3.html

Both extreme cartoony and extreme realism is pretty tough to do in lightwave.

ianr
07-10-2012, 09:26 AM
heh littlewaves,
You been on too much cheese eatin'?
Dem dreams?
You,you just gotta keep under control!

littlewaves
07-10-2012, 10:46 AM
heh littlewaves,
You been on too much cheese eatin'?
Dem dreams?
You,you just gotta keep under control!

Merely a movie reference intended (if not received) as a satire on the way these ikboost threads always tend to go.

ianr
07-11-2012, 07:53 AM
heh littlewaves,
Yawn,I ain't kicking it,
It's a giggle,well done!

Remember-If the Brain-Police knock on your door,think your out!