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Darth Mole
10-24-2003, 04:57 PM
After a couple of weeks working with LW under OS 10.3, my advice is: don't do it. At least not yet, anyway.

Not only does it screw up the way Layout works (moving/rotating the screen or objects), but the Graph Editor is totally broken, I find very often the LW interface just stops recognising mouse clicks (you can't access anything with no other option but to force quit), and it's been crashing on me much more frequently than under Jaguar.

Since Panther provides no speed increases or anything that otherwise improves the experience of using LW, I'd stay with 10.2.x for the time being - possibly until LW8.

If it wasn't such a pain to reinstall all my stuff (there's lots of it), I'd go back to 10.2 right now.

Just my two pence worth.

DM

Beamtracer
10-24-2003, 05:17 PM
It's probably a good idea for anyone posting reports of Panther problems to include detailed information about their machine specs.

Scott Gammans
10-24-2003, 05:17 PM
Thanks for the warning, Darth Mole. Coming from a Windoze environment I have learned to be very suspicious of O/S upgrades, so I am content to sit back and let others be the guinea pigs for Panther. Perhaps the final version (which, as I type this, is supposed to be released in 45 minutes) will cure some of the ills you are describing, but I'll still wait to hear about other Machead experiences first.

retter7
10-24-2003, 05:44 PM
Can you please list your system...G4, G5, OS version, LW version, Ram?

Thanks.

I'm dealing with a video card issue where my transparency drops when objects are deselcted on the G5 with the 9800. With no solution or interest from Newtek, Apple or ATI, I'm hoping against hope that Panther could be the fix.

r

js33
10-24-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
It's probably a good idea for anyone posting reports of Panther problems to include detailed information about their machine specs.

Don't you remember Beam. Darth was one of the first in here to get a G5.

Darth are you running the same verison that is being released today at 8 pm? Or are you running a prerelease version?

Also since I don't use LW on my Mac I wonder if 10.3 will be OK with FCP and DVDSP? Those are the two main things I use my Mac for.

Cheers,
JS

paintboy
10-24-2003, 06:47 PM
thanks Darthmole!

themaxx
10-25-2003, 12:24 AM
i installed panther tonight and am seeing some odd behavior with layout too. single (stationary) clicks move objects in seemingly arbitrary ways.

this is on a dual 2 G5 with the radeon 9800 pro card.

(aside from this glitch, panther is nice.)

Darth Mole
10-25-2003, 04:45 AM
Sorry: dual 2GHz G5, 1.5GB SDRAM, OS X 10.3 build 7B85, LW 7.5c.

Also using the 9800 pro ATI card.

I also find accessing save/load menu under LW can be a bit slow sometimes. I'ver had no real problems with any other apps. (Although I've heard a few serious problems with FCP too, but only on forums and message boards.)

To solve the moving/rotating thing, switch to Tablet mode - honest!

Johnny
10-25-2003, 08:05 AM
well, THAT's discouraging...just got my Dual 2ghz yesterday...

would it make sense to have a dual OSX boot set up? one partition each for Jag and Panther? Is this possible?

How's LW run under Smeagle?
(Is it me, or does 'smeagle' sound like something you see a Dr. about?)

J

jgriffin
10-25-2003, 01:10 PM
Just curious. Any Panther experiences on machines other than G5 ?

Beamtracer
10-25-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by js33
Don't you remember Beam. Darth was one of the first in here to get a G5. What are you trying to say, js? That the G5 is no good?

We don't know if it has anything to do with the G5. It may be an OS issue related to any machine that is updated to the new OS. It's a bit early to tell.

I understand that the G5s were running well until they were updated to the new OS. We haven't yet had any feedback about OS10.3 on other machines with other graphics cards.

I'm sure that Newtek would have had a copy of OS10.3 for some months before it's public release, so they should be well aware of these issues.

Beamtracer
10-25-2003, 06:06 PM
.

Johnny
10-25-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Darth Mole
After a couple of weeks working with LW under OS 10.3, my advice is: don't do it. At least not yet, anyway.

Not only does it screw up the way Layout works ...Graph Editor is totally broken...


Darth;

what about your Panther G5 in a Screamernet set-up; let's say you successfully model on another Mac. Is the G5 on Panther well-behaved in a SN environment?

J
(assuming you have that set-up!)

js33
10-25-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
What are you trying to say, js? That the G5 is no good?

We don't know if it has anything to do with the G5. It may be an OS issue related to any machine that is updated to the new OS. It's a bit early to tell.

I understand that the G5s were running well until they were updated to the new OS. We haven't yet had any feedback about OS10.3 on other machines with other graphics cards.

I'm sure that Newtek would have had a copy of OS10.3 for some months before it's public release, so they should be well aware of these issues.

No I never said anything about the G5 being good or bad.
You just like to read more into what I say than I do.

I just said don't you remember that Darth was one of the first ones to get a G5 because I thought it odd that you didn't know what kind of machine he is running when he posted that he was using a G5 in several threads.

Also I just upgraded to Panther last night. It seems to work fine so far. I haven't tried Lightwave yet but I'll give it go and see what happens. I have an iMac 800 G4 w/Superdrive but it has a GF2 MX instead of an ATI card.


Cheers,
JS

Jimzip
10-26-2003, 02:09 AM
Calm down Beam. JS is just refreshing our memories.

I'm running Panther on my dual 1.25 G4. Radeon 9000 64MB, and yes, apparently they were absolutely correct in saying OpenGl is faster. I can't even see a 180º turn sometimes in Layout.. It really moves..
Yes, Modeler has a problem, moving any of the viewports, rotating them or using any tools that transform objects cause everything to skip around.

It's ok. I'm nearing the end of a project so I didn't get caught too badly. Although, I really should have stuck to the 'if it ain't broke, don't UPGRADE it' saying.. ;)

Don't worry fellas, if NT hasn't noticed, they have now, and Apple probably knows too by now.

I've also had quite a few random crashes. But it's almost as if Panther is still really young, it tells you to send a bug report like XP does when there's a crash..

Other than those few minor bugs, it's a beautiful OS as expected. I don't know how I lived without Expose.. :D
Faster? Hell yes, especially if you use your computer in column view..

Anyway, that's all from me. I paid for it, and I don't regret it. Chill fellas, there will always be bugs.

Jimzip :D

P.S, if JS hasn't had problems yet it could be another magical error on ATi's part. But we'll have to wait and see.

themaxx
10-26-2003, 02:24 AM
after switching to tablet mode it's usable. i've been goofing around for a few hours and while there are still some twitches, but it's not end-of-the-world type stuff.

Rojo
10-26-2003, 03:44 AM
I'm not having any problems with the graph editor, but yeah the viewports skitter around and act strange. Both 7.5 and 7.5c behave the same.

Annoying... but I would still say worth upgrading, everything else runs better.

calico
10-26-2003, 04:03 AM
I wish it was Photoshop that broke. In that case the bug would be killed in few days (Adobe or Apple). Anyway, I can't resist. I'm installing it.

PowerBook | G4 | 1.25 GHz | ATI Mobility Radeon 9600

Beamtracer
10-26-2003, 04:35 AM
Sorry, js, I took your earlier post the wrong way.




Originally posted by Jimzip
Modeler has a problem, moving any of the viewports, rotating them or using any tools that transform objects cause everything to skip around.
Hi Jimzip. Can you elaborate on what you mean by things "skip around"? Just wondering how difficult it is to work with this? Can you still model?

Darth Mole reported trouble with the Graph Editor. Anyone else have this problem? A problem with the Graph Editor sounds more like something to do with Lightwave rather than the graphics card.

My G5 arrives in the next day or so, so I'm deciding what OS to run with.

calico
10-26-2003, 05:59 AM
Graph Editor is definitely gone. Nothing else in Layout so far. I don't have any problems with Modeler. I did some moving, rotating, stretching,..... Everything is good so far.

So 'first' impression is: forget animating with panther.

Shame, because Panther is really snappy.

js33
10-26-2003, 06:24 AM
OK guys here's my first Mac bug report.
I like others had no problem with modeler. It was really solid. However when I open the graph editor and click to select a keyframe Lightwave crashes. It doesn't lock up it goes away.
Whatever the problem is it will hopefully (better) be a quick fix.

Machine specs.
iMac 800 G4 w/Superdrive
256mb ram (soon to be 512)
Panther just installed.
About 30 gigs free drive space.
Lightwave 7.5c
MS intellipoint 5 button optical mouse.

Cheers,
JS

calico
10-26-2003, 06:33 AM
Same here. Choosing Graph Editor in LW is like hitting command+Q.

js33
10-26-2003, 06:49 AM
Yeah this is a serious problem that should be fixed today. :(

Here comes 10.3.1 :)

Well there's plenty to explore in the meantime. I have to admit I haven't used my Mac that much yet because I only had LW and what ever comes with the Mac but now I have FCE and DVDSP and I like those. DVDSP is really sweet compared to Encore. Encore works but it is tedious to use and feels more like a shareware app. DVDSP feels more like a moviemaking program than a DVD authoring program.
Apple does get alot of things right. I just wish the iMac was faster. Damn now I might have to G5 and upgrade FCE to FCP4. What are you guys doing to me.

Cheers,
JS

js33
10-26-2003, 06:53 AM
Expose is a pretty cool feature. It reminds of some stuff they had on Linux a few years ago when I tried it. It was several years ago on a PC with an ATI card and Linux wouldn't give me a clear picture. It had horizontal wiggles about every 100 pixels. It was bad enough that I couldn't use X windows. I haven't tried Linix since then so I'm sure it's alot better now because the cards are better now. This was an old ATI all-in-wonder with only 8 megs of ram.

Cheers,
JS

themaxx
10-26-2003, 11:42 AM
no problems with the graph editor here.

quitting via command-q causes lightwave to "unexpectedly quit", whereas selecting quit from the menu doesn't; the main difference is that preferences don't get saved when i quit via command-q.

Johnny
10-26-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by themaxx
no problems with the graph editor here.


hi, themaxx;

which Mac are you using such that you have no graph editor problems? and which card?

J

themaxx
10-26-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Johnny
which Mac are you using such that you have no graph editor problems? and which card?

dual 2 G5 with the radeon 9800 pro.

retter7
10-26-2003, 12:04 PM
At the risk of annoying a few, I have to say that I'm simply amazed no one is concerned with transparency in Layout.
If anyone is interested...give it a try with a few objects loaded into Layout if you're using a G5 with the 9600 or 9800 card. Your transparency will turn solid in your OpenGL preview as soon as you deselect. I need some more people complaining about this so that Tech Support will take it seriously. I use transparency as a major step in my work process. Without it I'm screwed. So minor glitches with Panther don't bother me much...you can always go back to Jag.

r

Jimzip
10-26-2003, 04:18 PM
Sure Beam.
I'm sure some more people know now what I was talking about from just playing around with Modeler. I'll do a full clean install later today as a test to see if the bugs disappear. I installed Panther over Jaguar to start with..

What I mean by 'skipping' is that the object or contents of the panel/viewport you are manipulating suddenly disappears, or switches to another position.
It's almost like turning the 'Snap' (hit 'd', then go to the 'Units' tab) feature to: I'm PSYCHOTIC!

Please make sure you're using tablet mode. That fixes everything up. Works perfectly as far as I've used it, and OpenGL really flies as far as I've seen.
Hope that helps.

Jimzip :D

(P.S, I really hope they use Matt's icon set for LightWave 8.0, it rocks!
Link: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=12805&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 )

Darth Mole
10-26-2003, 04:44 PM
Jimzip - try switching to Tablet mode in Modeller as well. I think this solves the twitching problem...

Sadly, it looks like the mixture of 7.5c, Panther and a dual 2GHz machine means that the Graph Editor is totally screwed.

I think this needs a fix separate to anything LW8 might bring - though WHO will fix it I've no idea: NT? Apple? ATI?

:-(

riki
10-26-2003, 06:18 PM
This is a bit off topic but maybe ewe guys know the answer to this already, so I'll save generating a new thread. I've just installed OSX 1.5 and Modeler often crashes on the first startup. It seems to always take two goes and is really slow now to launch the APP. I'm on a G4 btw

Any ideas??

Beamtracer
10-26-2003, 07:26 PM
Has anyone had the failing graph editor problem with Lightwave 7.5 (a)? The reports so far seem to all indicate a problem with Lightwave 7.5c.

What's needed is an urgent patch from Newtek. The problem should have been foreseen many months ago when Apple provided Newtek with a beta copy of OS 10.3 to play with. A patch should already be available for download.

Manowatt
10-26-2003, 07:32 PM
just my $.02:

I have the graph editor problem as well. I'm running LW 7.5 (build 572) on an 800 mhz iBook with the 32 mb ATI card.

This is a huge problem. I personally can't animate anything without the graph! So Layout is effectively worthless for now. Hopefully someone will step up soon and correct the problems.

I also have all of the 'jumpiness' described in Modeler.

js33
10-26-2003, 07:49 PM
The modeler problem seems to be an ATI issue as I don't have that problem in Panther with a nVidia card. But I do have the graph editor crash and that has to be a Panther problem as it didn't exist previously. So ATI needs to fix the modeler problem and Apple needs to fix the graph editor problem.

Anyway this is how it seems to me. I don't think Newtek is to blame because these problems don't exist in other OS versions.

Cheers,
JS

mlinde
10-26-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by riki
This is a bit off topic but maybe ewe guys know the answer to this already, so I'll save generating a new thread. I've just installed OSX 1.5 and Modeler often crashes on the first startup. It seems to always take two goes and is really slow now to launch the APP. I'm on a G4 btw
Riki, go to your user folder/Library/Preferences and throw away the Modeler preferences. Then, go to Applications/Lightwave 7.5/Programs and throw away the Modeler cmdline.

Try launching now.

mlinde
10-26-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
What's needed is an urgent patch from Newtek. The problem should have been foreseen many months ago when Apple provided Newtek with a beta copy of OS 10.3 to play with. A patch should already be available for download.
Geez beam.
How do you figure that

(a) the graph editor problem is a newtek issue
and
(b) a patch should already be out

Even if the problem is something in Newtek's code for the graph editor, and not a change Apple made in the windowing environment, the issue is one of Apple failing in backwards compatibility. I am a fan of upgrades and improvements, but even M$ keeps features for a version or two before killing them off when they become obsolete. In addition, to assume that a developer can code off of a beta version of software is a bit naive in my mind. Sure, they can familiarize themselves with the changes, and adapt to parts of the code that is "frozen" but in reality, the only version of 10.3 it's "safe" to program for is the GM release. Last time I checked, OS 10 is only on it's third point release. Code that worked in 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 should work in 10.3, unless the coding was horribly wrong in the first place.

riki
10-26-2003, 09:34 PM
Thanks mlinde looks liked that fixed it.

On another note which vaguely relates to this thread (ie LW and Mac OSs).

One thing I don't understand. When I upgraded to 7.5c back on OS9 I had this nasty problem of my monitor cycling through what looked like an 8 bit pallete. This would happen occassionally when I selected a Poly in Modeler. Everyone said then that it was my video card.

But I was thinking "How can it be my video card if it's not a problem in other APPs and has only started to occur with the 7.5c LW update??"

Anyway now I've upgraded to OSX and I don't have the monitor problem anymore. So it was clearly a problem only with Lightwave on OS9.

That makes sense right??

Beamtracer
10-26-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
the issue is one of Apple failing in backwards compatibility.
Hi Michael. I guess it is debatable how quickly a fix should be made. However, I firmly believe that the graph editor problem is one for Newtek to fix.

Operating systems always change, and it's quite common for programs to get broken in that change. If it is a problem that is unique to one application (which this LW graph editor bug appears to be), then it is the responsibility of the software developer of that application to release a patch to fix it (ie Newtek).

The windowing of other applications works in OS 10.3, in fact opening other windows and panels within Lightwave seems to be fine. Why is it only Lightwave's Graph Editor that is failing?

New Apple machines from now on (G4s and G5s) are all leaving the factory with OS 10.3 installed. What are buyers of new Macs going to do? If you buy a G5 now, it'll ship with OS 10.3. You can't downgrade 'cause you won't get 10.2.7 in the box. You can't upgrade an old copy of 10.2 you had lying around because Apple doesn't provide 10.2.7 as a download patch. You're stuffed!

The graph editor is at the heart of all animation. Without it Lightwave is not useful. Newtek should be working day and night to get this one fixed. This is one of the worst Lightwave bugs I can remember. It brings everything to a stop.

js33
10-26-2003, 10:01 PM
Well I guess we'll see tomorrow if a patch is to come from Newtek or from Apple or both.
Since Pather was only released last Friday at 8pm there has been no one at work to see the bug yet.

I imagine both companies will quickly fix this as like you said it is a show stopper for animation.

Cheers,
JS

leapoffaith
10-26-2003, 11:49 PM
Just to add to the bug list, after I installed Panther, I was hit with the Modeler bug but not the Graph Editor bug.

System specs:

Dual 1.25 G4
Radeon 9000
1.5 GB RAM
Installed Panther using Archive & Install

I only mention installation method because A&I affected Dreamweaver MX 2004 (a license folder wasn't transferred properly) and LightWave (eve.framework wasn't transferred). Yeah, one's a preference and the other's an extension. But who knows what else might not have copied properly?

js33
10-27-2003, 02:26 AM
Did anyone try reinstalling Lightwave after upgrading to Panther? I already had 7.5c installed before upgrading and haven't tried a reinstall yet.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
10-27-2003, 04:32 AM
leapoffaith's installation suggestion is a very good one. I receive my G5 later today, so I'll try a clean installation of Lightwave and see if that solves the Graph Editor Crash bug.

It would also be interesting if there is anyone with an nVidea card having the Jumping Modeler bug.

Johnny
10-27-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
leapoffaith's installation suggestion is a very good one. I receive my G5 later today, so I'll try a clean installation of Lightwave and see if that solves the Graph Editor Crash bug.

Beam;

Are you going with Panther, or sticking with Smeagol for the time being?

J

policarpo
10-27-2003, 08:16 AM
Well, for what it is worth, I should be doing a clean install of Panther on an external firewire drive with a fresh install of LW 7.5 (and eventually 7.5c after some testing) to see how it performs.

Since I have a working LW system right now under 10.2.8, there is no way in you know what that I am just going to blindly install Panther...i've had enough non productive headache times.

Info to be provided soon. ;)

brumbaer
10-27-2003, 08:26 AM
The GraphEditor crashes all the time especially when the frame-slider is moved in the Editor or the main window, but on numerous occasions as well.

The object/cursor jumping can be stopped, by changing the input device from mouse to tablett (I do not know if this has been posted before, if yes please ignore)

Regards
SH

Ge4-ce
10-27-2003, 11:16 AM
Damn! I ordered Panther, and it will arrive any day now.. I will not install it!! Tell me to not install it!! AAAAAAAHHHHHH this is gonna be SOOOOO frustrating, leaving that shiny black box on the shelve!!! I hope LW 8 will fix all these problems!! (or 10.3.1) or just another new ATI-driver :rolleyes:

Why can't just everything go right like it should go? Isn't that why we bought a Mac in the first place?

mlinde
10-27-2003, 12:01 PM
It irritates the hell out of me when a new OS comes out and everyone expects it to work, and if something doesn't work, it's not Apple's (or M$'s) fault, it's the application developer, who should kowtow to the new OS regardless of their own development schedules and plans. If you are so fed up with the fact that you can't upgrade to the latest version of Mac OS because something you already own (that works in a previous version) doesn't work, you'd better get used to disappointment.

Sure, if the graph editor problem is a bug in Lightwave, Newtek should address it. However, to assume that Newtek needs to patch their software to work in a newer version of the OS is foolish. I do expect that the next release of Lightwave won't have the graph editor bug you've found (assuming it's actually a Lightwave bug). The question is, do you have to wait for 8 to run 10.3?

I understand that many of you are early adopters, and I applaud that. I tend to adopt shortly thereafter, if the number of issues introduced and reviewed seem to be specific to people who add "workflow enhancements" like DefaultFolder or QuickKeys. However, in light of the reviews coming in about 10.3 from the release of the GM until the official CD release, there have been a large number of issues that I consider big bugs. What I am getting at is this: How many of you loaded up 10.0 and found it nearly useless or bug-ridden? How about 10.1? How about 10.2? Software companies consider their "GM" candidate the public beta, and release their pressed copies to the masses to discover additional bugs and problems. In effect, early adopters are the vicitms of lax QA by software developers. Be aware of this, and expect that things may not work.

How many 10.3 compatible patches are already available (three days after the public release of 10.3)? I see lots of incompatibilities listed, but not so many updates.

In addition (directly to Beam), to assume that your software will work without a hitch in a new OS is ludicrous. As I recall, 10.2 resulted in a different 3D app being completely useless as well. Who was responsible for the fix? Apple. In a production environment, the last thing you do is upgrade. What didn't work on your machine before? Why did you need to upgrade? The issue is need, not want. Yes, right about now Apple is pressing 10.3 onto new machines. That means if you order a machine now, you probably have a 50% chance that it's got 10.3 on it. Do you need a new machine right now?

Frankly, last time I checked there was no life or death need to upgrade to 10.3, and those who are buying new machines that may come with it probably already have machines that work, so they just have to bide their time before switching over to a new box.

Miles
10-27-2003, 12:05 PM
:eek:

Ge4-ce
10-27-2003, 12:17 PM
mlinde,

Ok, I understand that those things happen all the time.. But actually it would be fair that we got payed 150 bucks for doing the testing! Not charged for it!! I mean come on! I do not point at Newtek, Apple, nor anyone else! But If we pay such a lot of money for Lightwave, And Apple's equipment, we should get more service! Imagine this thing being a car! If you update to leather seats, you can't steer anymore, but hey, we don't know that yet, so you have to find out first, so you can tell us, and then we do something about it!!

What I mean is: What did newtek did the past half year??? Did they ever tested LW on a Mac equiped with 10.3??? They MUST and I mean MUST have noticed that such a fundamental thing as GRAPH editor did not work on this version! The least you could expect is a notice saying: "Warning do not use Panther YET!!" but no, we, the users are the betatesters! result: We have problems..

Back to the car: If I wanted to upgrade to leather seats, and the vendor says: whow!! don't do that yet! You won't be able to steer until we upgrade the steering wheel, I will wait updating!

So it is newtek's job to warn us, advise us! via Mail or via these forums or via their website.. They can't play ignorant

turbo
10-27-2003, 12:41 PM
My panther should arrive this week.. but seeing this thread, I'm not in a real hurry for it.. :p

I agree with Ge4-ce that we are unpaid beta testers. (a price we pay for leading the way..) And its certainly no fun. I also agree that more testing should be done before releasing and getting our money and unpaid beta testing services..

Question:
- has anyone reported these bugs to the powers that be? ... or have y'all just talked about them here?

Think I'll let my panther sit on the shelf a bit OR.. just install it on one of my G4 drives.. until I pick up a second drive for me G5.. :cool:

eblu
10-27-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce

What I mean is: What did newtek did the past half year??? Did they ever tested LW on a Mac equiped with 10.3???


ge4-ce,
ummm... unless Netwek is a paying member of the Apple dev connection (adc) they never got panther until we did. And I'm not gonna speculate whether or not I think they are paying members, I think it might depress me. Seriously, based on the knee-jerk bug-reaction history between Newtek and Apple, there has obviously been NO communication about or testing of the changes to the os that may affect LW, before the release of new Operating systems.

I would frankly be surprised if panther was even considered during the development of lw 8.

policarpo
10-27-2003, 12:50 PM
Graph Editor crash bug confirmed over here on a fresh install of Panther and LW 7.5c on my PB 1ghz with ATI 9000 card.

It crashed every time I went to add a keyframe or move a keyframe in the graph editor.

Ho hum...good thing Panther was on an external FW drive.

Oh well...I went ahead and submitted my error logs to Apple via the bug submission form that popped up after the crash.

Back to work on 10.2.8.

:)

eblu
10-27-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by riki
Thanks mlinde looks liked that fixed it.

On another note which vaguely relates to this thread (ie LW and Mac OSs).

One thing I don't understand. When I upgraded to 7.5c back on OS9 I had this nasty problem of my monitor cycling through what looked like an 8 bit pallete. This would happen occassionally when I selected a Poly in Modeler. Everyone said then that it was my video card.

But I was thinking "How can it be my video card if it's not a problem in other APPs and has only started to occur with the 7.5c LW update??"

Anyway now I've upgraded to OSX and I don't have the monitor problem anymore. So it was clearly a problem only with Lightwave on OS9.

That makes sense right??

riki,
possibly.
sounds like a legacy issue.
a long time ago, 3-d was very hard to do, and sometimes, to speed things up a bit, the display would drop to less colors.
OS 9's openGL implementation was purchased from a third party who had to basically invent a way to get the mac to do openGL, wayyyyyyy before mac opengl hardware was available. And before there was hardware acceleration, usable speed (youd call it atrocious now) was achieved by dropping color depth (and other unnecessary details) when met with complexity (you wouldn't call it complex if you saw it). It was an amazing job they did, but it was in essence a hack, and not the "best" way to do it. And Apple built on top of that, because Os 9 was a disposable os. So even now, the os 9 implementation of OpenGL could easily be trying to make your life easier by dropping the colors from 16 million + to say 256, or 16. And it would only happen in weird situations while using OpenGL.

not necessarily the correct interpretation of events just a plausible possibility.
peace,
-eblu

dmg3d
10-27-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
I do not point at Newtek, Apple, nor anyone else!
...
So it is newtek's job to warn us, advise us! via Mail or via these forums or via their website.. They can't play ignorant

I'll point.

I think Newtek is at fault. I think if the people here have had Panther for a day or two and found problems, Newtek should have found it in the last month or two.

I bought my copy of Panther over the weekend and today took it back. When I told the Apple Store salesperson of some issues with LW, he said that "an app like that would definitely need some updating due to the new graphic unerpinnings (?) in Panther" (to which I just nodded my head like I totally understood what he was talking about). But he said that he, as a small developer, for the last two months has had the actual build that was released to the public on Friday. And he said that "larger" companies would have had this and prior builds for the last 6 months.

He also said (which was something I told him I was thinking of doing) DON'T install Panther on another partion or drive and try to switch between the two... it causes big problems (to which again I nodded furiously,... because when I hear the phrase "causes big problems" I usually start sweating and get a ringing in my ears which blocks out anything else a salesperson might say).

So I'll wait. For someone to do something.

-Dave

turbo
10-27-2003, 01:44 PM
hmmmm... bah.. scary.. *sigh.. thats what i was planning to do.. (switch between drives).. but i can wait this time.. :rolleyes:

paintboy
10-27-2003, 01:54 PM
maybe things got this way(being paid beta testers) because so many, are willing to ante up for the "late$t and greate$t", over and over again from companys
who pretty consistantly produce stuff that only "kinda" works?
they count on this to keep you involved.

:p

mlinde
10-27-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by dmg3d
He also said (which was something I told him I was thinking of doing) DON'T install Panther on another partion or drive and try to switch between the two... it causes big problems
I wonder what Panther broke then. I mean, multiple OS versions on multiple drives has been around AT LEAST since 8.0, and in every revision of OS 10.

I can understand frustration with the new OS and something like Lightwave not working, don't misunderstand me. What I can't understand is the expectation that something should already be done, by anyone here or a small developer who works part time at the apple store. You look at a site like macintouch, and developers big and small are being informed of bugs that exist because of interaction between their software and 10.3. There are even problems with Apple's own software and features in 10.3. You see a LOT of bug reports now, but you don't see a lot of 10.3 compatibility patches yet.

Darth Mole
10-27-2003, 02:02 PM
Anybody know a really easy way to reinstall 10.2.8 without hoovering the entire hard drive?

Ah, rats.

tallscot
10-27-2003, 02:19 PM
Just do an Archive Install, Darth. Boot from the Jaguar CD, when you select which drive you want to install it on, the Options button becomes active. Click on it. Select Archive Install. That should work fine.

You will have to then go through a few Software Update downloads...

Adobe has Panther information right on their site, about compatibility with all their applications. They did the same thing with Jaguar.

Developers get builds of the OS before the public does. Newtek should have information about Panther issues on their site right now. That's called good support.

tallscot
10-27-2003, 02:23 PM
Here is Newtek's FAQ section for the current Mac:
http://www.newtek.com/support/tech/faqs/lightwave/mac-current-index.php

It's blank. Am I missing a knowledge base for Lightwave Mac? I don't see it. Is there really no technical support information posted for OS X and Lightwave 7.5? Maybe I just can't find it.

Ge4-ce
10-27-2003, 03:14 PM
For most parts written here I agree, but as for the cheep betatesters part,.. We PAY them to test software! Right?

We PAY Good money for them to work things out.. If I make a 3D character and his left arm has one nasty Polygon sticking out because my weightmaps weren't 'bug-free' I get NO money!! It's the same game!

And ok, I am a little bit understanding that small things that a person can overlook go wrong.. But As a developer, they DID have versions of Panther before the official release. If they did not, I again prove my point! Wanna Bet Adobe had them?? Jeeeeesss They practically build an entire new version of photoshop Optimised for Panther and G5! Small Bugs.. OK,.. but again! Graph editor not working in Panther is a BIG BUG!!

Johnny
10-27-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
For most parts written here I agree, but as for the cheep betatesters part,.. We PAY them to test software! Right?

We PAY Good money for them to work things out..


I bet that they do a pretty thorough job of testing their OS before they release it, but there's onlly one way to know whether or not there are problems with an OS X version on every possible Mac out there, running every possible app run on those Macs, with every possible driver, RAM config, etc.

I think that we ARE de facto beta testers, but I don't think that this is foisted upon us; it's a reality of software.

Maybe the people at the Quicken or Word message boards are squealing about some issue with Panther right now that doesn't even involve video cards?

after reading these threads, I'm holding off putting Panther on my main machines.. it's kicking ***** on my iBook now, and that's good enough for me 'til the kinks are worked thru.

There are always problems of one kind or another to be solved..this is just one of those problems.

J

Ge4-ce
10-27-2003, 03:39 PM
Again Johnny, I agree

I do know that nothing is going to change around here..

It just a matter of principles that I'm discussing here..


If only Newtek would tell us: warning, LW not Panther-compatible.. that would be enough..

And as at least a dozen of people on various machines have reported the bug, I cannot believe they did not knew the bug.

I don't care who cause the bug, Apple or newtek, let them solve it, and they will, probably, but do not let people go trough a lot of trouble (go back to 10.2 and stuff) because they did not let us know..

js33
10-27-2003, 04:18 PM
Has anyone tried a fresh install of LW 7.5 on Panther? Not b or c just plain 7.5?

The graph editor bug is a definate show stopper. I think it will be addressed quickly. Also if 8 comes out soon that should definately fix the big bugs and probably introduce a new round of smaller ones.

Also as you all know I use both platforms. The reason Windows doesn't have as many LW bugs is because Windows isn't upgraded as often as OSX is. That is bad for progress I suppose but it makes the system more stable with fewer upgrades. I appluade Apple for updating the OS to include features that are cool but it seems like they are moving so fast that software developers can't keep up with all the changes.

It should start to stablize at some point.

Cheers,
JS

tallscot
10-27-2003, 04:31 PM
There are hundreds of developers who have no problem keeping up with Apple.

Adobe's products all work great with Panther, and they have new versions available now too.

I think a few months is plenty of time to at least identify the bugs and warn customers about them. Pretending there are no issues is lame.

js33
10-27-2003, 05:09 PM
I agree that the graph editor bug is too bug to not have noticed but I wonder if Apple made changes up to the last minute that Newtek had no control over or time to address and something broke the graph editor in Pather that was OK in Jag.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
10-27-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
It irritates the hell out of me when a new OS comes out and everyone expects it to work, and if something doesn't work, it's not Apple's (or M$'s) fault, it's the application developer

It's not a matter of who's fault it is that it happened. It's a matter of who's responsibility it is to fix it. Application developers are expected to update or tweak their apps to accommodate a new operating system. That's the way the industry works.


Originally posted by mlinde
However, to assume that Newtek needs to patch their software to work in a newer version of the OS is foolish. I think it would be more foolish of them to ignore the situation. You really think Newtek should not issue a fix?


Originally posted by mlinde
Why did you need to upgrade?...

...Frankly, last time I checked there was no life or death need to upgrade to 10.3, and those who are buying new machines that may come with it probably already have machines that work, so they just have to bide their time before switching over to a new box. I'm not about to install Panther on an existing G4. My concern is regarding a G5 I have on order that is soon to be delivered.

The G5 turnover time from factory to end user is pretty quick at the moment. If you look at the manufacture date of components (often hard drives come with a date printed on them) it is sometimes surprising to learn that the drive in your machine was made by the drive manufacturer only days before. It really is a "just-on-time" manufacturing process.

Apple probably started stamping Panther on new machines before the the OS was released to the public this week, maybe even a couple of weeks before. It will be almost immediate that new G5s ship with Panther. The previous workable OS for the G5, OS 10.2.7, is not available for download from Apple's website. You can't downgrade.

Newtek needs to release a patch or update very soon, and long before Lightwave 8 is available. Each day that this problem continues will cause more frustration among the Mac user base.

js33
10-27-2003, 07:17 PM
Has anyone heard anything from Newtek or Apple yet?

When Lightwave crashes Panther pops up a bug submission form so I know Apple already knows and Newtek should know from reading the forum.

Scott. Any advice for a fix?

Cheers,
JS

leapoffaith
10-27-2003, 10:48 PM
I doubt that either NewTek or Apple have had a chance to research the problems. Today was the first day either company would have heard of it or been able to look into it. I called NewTek tech support this afternoon at 3:30. The tech hadn't heard of the problems yet, so I directed him to the forums and emailed some hardware and troubleshooting info. So now I know at least one person at NewTek knows about it...

jcool
10-27-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
It's not a matter of who's fault it is that it happened. It's a matter of who's responsibility it is to fix it. Application developers are expected to update or tweak their apps to accommodate a new operating system. That's the way the industry works.

I think it would be more foolish of them to ignore the situation. You really think Newtek should not issue a fix?

I'm not about to install Panther on an existing G4. My concern is regarding a G5 I have on order that is soon to be delivered.


Sounds like you're screwed. Go ahead and raise a ruckus with Newtek and Apple about a patch, but I doubt you'll have luck with either. (You might try getting Apple to send you a 10.2.7 CD.. let's see how insanely great they are with their customer support)

Experienced users understand that, like it or not, compatibility problems will exist between even minor OS revisions. The expectation that software as complicated as Lightwave will be ready to go Day 1 for a major OS revision to a minority platform is extremely unreasonable. Throwing a fit in the forums shows even less sense. If you want to get your point across to Newtek, give them a call. They know these forums are full of the craziest %5 of users, and give their comments about that much credence.

I'd keep that G4 plugged in if I were you.

js33
10-28-2003, 02:18 AM
Now that wasn't very helpful. All you're going to do is piss everyone off here because they're already upset.

Cheers,
JS

Ge4-ce
10-28-2003, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by jcool
Throwing a fit in the forums shows even less sense. If you want to get your point across to Newtek, give them a call. They know these forums are full of the craziest %5 of users, and give their comments about that much credence.





May I remind you that these 5% of forum people with some exceptional endurance made the ATI-Bug in OS 10.2.5 and higher go away?? These forums are a voice of people who want to help eachother and find a resolution for problems. Call Technical support is a good way, but "We have never heard of this problem" is not a good answer isn't it?

If the problem is that bad like the graph editor, there are 2 possibilities:

1) They knew it long before since the release of the developer edition of Panther

2) The problem occured during the final revision of panther so they only know it for about 3 weeks! And when it is something they adjusted in such a short notice at apple, It could't be so hard to find what caused the bug and fix it..


My guess is still with choice nr. 1

TyVole
10-28-2003, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
If the problem is that bad like the graph editor, there are 2 possibilities:

1) They knew it long before since the release of the developer edition of Panther

2) The problem occured during the final revision of panther so they only know it for about 3 weeks! And when it is something they adjusted in such a short notice at apple, It could't be so hard to find what caused the bug and fix it.

A third possibility is that they never tested Panther with 7.5. My guess is that their limited resources are fully committed to v8.

No software guarantees compatibility with future operating systems.

Assuming this problem is fixed in v8, it may turn out to be a blessing for Newtek; because now Mac users will have to upgrade -- bundle or no bundle.

noiseboy
10-28-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by jcool
The expectation that software as complicated as Lightwave will be ready to go Day 1 for a major OS revision to a minority platform is extremely unreasonable.


Both FormZ and Vectorworks had patches available to fix OS 10.3 issues on the same day as Panther was released. Both could be considered as complicated software.

Ge4-ce
10-28-2003, 06:14 AM
then I suggest they change the system requierments on their site:

LW 7.5 supported up to MacOS X 10.2.8

That would be a fair thing to do!

Now it displays OS X,

That's a little bit to general don't ya think?

jcool
10-28-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by js33
Now that wasn't very helpful. All you're going to do is piss everyone off here because they're already upset.

Cheers,
JS

So, no damage done then, eh? ;) I just call it like I see it...

jcool
10-28-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by noiseboy
Both FormZ and Vectorworks had patches available to fix OS 10.3 issues on the same day as Panther was released. Both could be considered as complicated software.

I said "the expectation" that day 1 support would exist is unreasonable. The fact that it sometimes happens is great...

Ge4-ce makes a good point, Newtek should list the specific version of OS X Lightwave is compatible with, so they won't be in the position of claiming something that suddenly isn't true when a new version comes out.

Ade
10-28-2003, 09:34 AM
I wonder if Panther included the new ATI hotfix drivers for modeler bug?

Also when is Open GL 2 due for release?
mac Open GL is starting to fall behind in performance as seen in cinebench.

turbo
10-28-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by leapoffaith
I doubt that either NewTek or Apple have had a chance to research the problems. Today was the first day either company would have heard of it or been able to look into it. I called NewTek tech support this afternoon at 3:30. The tech hadn't heard of the problems yet, so I directed him to the forums and emailed some hardware and troubleshooting info. So now I know at least one person at NewTek knows about it...
GOOD JOB, leapoffaith!!! Now THAT's the way to be proactive, positive and productive! :cool:

Xacto
10-28-2003, 10:07 AM
:p

...wonder if this will effect the release date for version 8 of lightwave?

Ade
10-28-2003, 10:15 AM
Anyone seen any speed improvements with panther and LW?
Speed in rendering and loading objects and scenes?:)

tallscot
10-28-2003, 10:22 AM
I said "the expectation" that day 1 support would exist is unreasonable.

Day 1 isn't day 1 for the developer. The developers got Panther back in June.

As already pointed out, most developers have addressed their Panther issues on their Web sites the day of the launch. That is the norm, not the exception. The exception is when a developer knows about bugs, even after the launch date, and doesn't post this information on their site.

themaxx
10-28-2003, 11:07 AM
Earlier I said I wasn't having any problems with the graph editor. I was wrong. I'm seeing it too.

I understand that it's frustrating, but anyone outside of Newtek whining about how it ought to be an easy fix has obviously never done any serious software development or debugging. Things break in surprisingly subtle and unexpected ways. I'm quite sure that no one is more concerned about it than the guy(s) trying to hunt it down and fix it.

tallscot
10-28-2003, 11:22 AM
I think the people complaining here aren't being too quick simply because of past experiences with Newtek releasing a Mac update long after the Windows update, and then having that update contain serious bugs, which prompted Newtek to take the update away and release a new one weeks later. I was embarrassed for them, and it shows that they really don't treat the Mac version all that well.

And the Mac is only built by a single company - Apple. There are a billion configurations of PCs out there, but a very small number of Mac configurations.

And, again, to further point to Newtek's attitude/policy as a problem, we see no communication coming from Newtek at all about compatibility with Panther. They should have a nice big page on their Web site with information about how there are issues, or how there are no issues, etc. Right now, there is a blank page. At the very least, Newtek should have a tech note about the ATI bug on Macs with a link to the ATI patch. Unless I just can't find it, it's not there.

themaxx
10-28-2003, 11:37 AM
Fair enough. Point taken.

Scott_NewTek
10-28-2003, 12:06 PM
Hear Ye, Hear Ye...

I am aware of these significant issues on Panther:

1) Objects jump around in modeler

FYI, this is due to an underlying change in the mouse
management code for Panther. I think I have a fix that
will work... it is in TESTING.

2) Graph Editor crashes when adding a keyframe

FYI, this is apparently an OpenGL issue. That is all I
have been able to resolve. Debugging is in progress.

3) Transparency issues in OpenGL

FYI, this is another OpenGL issue. :-) Debugging in progress.

I have had access to Beta copies of Panther for several weeks, however, the last Beta before GM was a few weeks ago. And, without a lot of testing there is no way to know how things will work out for the final GM. Recall that Apple pulled 10.2.8 for a couple weeks when even they failed to find the important glitches.

As software developers, we do lag the OS upgrades. We are still working on issues from the last update, and we are adding new features and enhancements all the time. All these things work together and each bug, update, enhancement, etc., needs to be identified, isolated, repaired, tested, verified, documented, and released. While I wish that process was shorter, just like all the rest of you, it will take some time... and I don't know how long. Understand, that we cannot do that entire cycle for ONE bug - unless it is a complete show stopper (i.e., crash on launch!). So, let us shake things out for a little while, get a bunch of things fixed at once, and then release a decent patch that addresses the majority (if not all) of the immediate concerns. Really, that is what we are trying to do here. Not to mention the NEXT version of LW that needs the same fixes/updates... so we have DOUBLE the work in some cases!

I think you guys are gonna love the new LW... it will be worth the wait. In the meantime, have fun getting used to OS X.

-Scott

BTW, we were not privvy to the release date of Panther, we hoped it would be AFTER our release... oh well... surprise! It's here!

Johnny
10-28-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
Recall that Apple pulled 10.2.8 for a couple weeks when even they failed to find the important glitches.

dang right! stuff happens.

thanks for the dilligence on the current problems, Scot!

J

leapoffaith
10-28-2003, 12:21 PM
Thanks, Scott, for keeping us informed what's going on...

Scott_NewTek
10-28-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by leapoffaith
Thanks, Scott, for keeping us informed what's going on...

You're very welcome... now I am going back to work! :-)

Have a great day all,

-Scott

Ge4-ce
10-28-2003, 12:44 PM
That is a way I appreciate! Thank you Scott.

Now we all at least know what we're up to..

If they just pump this info into a simple html-doc and put it on the net, under: known issues, Everyone will know what to do and what to expect from an update to 10.3

greetings,

Ge4-ce

Scott_NewTek
10-28-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
That is a way I appreciate! Thank you Scott.

Now we all at least know what we're up to..

If they just pump this info into a simple html-doc and put it on the net, under: known issues, Everyone will know what to do and what to expect from an update to 10.3

greetings,

Ge4-ce

Agreed, I have asked to get the Mac FAQ updated. Look for it soon...

-Scott

tallscot
10-28-2003, 01:00 PM
If they just pump this info into a simple html-doc and put it on the net, under: known issues, Everyone will know what to do and what to expect from an update to 10.3

My point, exactly. Newtek should put all the known issues on a page that already exists at www.newtek.com, but is currently blank. They should put any issues with Panther, the G5, and especially the ATI bug with a link to ATI's patch.

jcool
10-28-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by tallscot
I said "the expectation" that day 1 support would exist is unreasonable.

As already pointed out, most developers have addressed their Panther issues on their Web sites the day of the launch. That is the norm, not the exception. The exception is when a developer knows about bugs, even after the launch date, and doesn't post this information on their site.

May I direct your attention to the very sizable thread on MacSlash that lists all the apps having issues with 10.3.

http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/27/1349222&mode=thread

tallscot
10-28-2003, 01:16 PM
And what is the first line in that thread?

Many many developers have introduced versions of their products updated for Panther.

Many of those posts in that thread are about haxies, which are obviously going to be broken by an OS update.

Some are about problems the individual is having and not an incompatibility. I know this because there are a few posts about applications I use and I can't repeat their problem. This, again, is caused by that user installing a haxie on their system, usually.

But this doesn't address my point about Newtek not informing their users about known issues via a Web page.

Beamtracer
10-28-2003, 02:08 PM
Thanks very much, Scott, for letting us know that Newtek is on to the case.

I'd like to put the Graph Editor Bug into the "show stopper" category.

The display bugs affecting transparecy and causing objects to jump around are obviously infuriating to many people, but it is possible to get some work done, even though it might slow you down.

The Graph Editor bug means that all animation work comes to an end. The show stops, and the animators may as well take their vacation leave now.

The fact that these problems coincide with the initial rush to purchase G5s exacerbates the problem. Those who have placed orders for G5s were also not privvy to the release date of Panther.

I guess one way out is to try to find someone else who was an early adopter of the G5 and (illegally) borrow their OS 10.2.7 disk. Others may not have that option.

I ask Newtek to release a patch for LW7.5. I don't think this issue can wait for the release of LW8.

jcool
10-28-2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by tallscot
But this doesn't address my point about Newtek not informing their users about known issues via a Web page.

Wasn't intended to, as you were absolutely correct. (Although, it sounds as if they were holding off for GM before they made any judgements, and Scott is now working to get that done.)

Jimzip
10-29-2003, 02:52 AM
I just read that having partitions or Panther installed on another disk can lead to 'big problems' according to an Apple Store employee. That's probably the cause of all my 'houdini' problems. I have Panther on my boot disk, and 10.2.8 on my other backup drive.
Could this be why apps are crashing? It's a really really annoying problem. Every ten seconds or so..

Jimzip :D

js33
10-29-2003, 04:04 AM
The only app I've had crash so far in Pather is Lightwave.
DVDSP, FCE, iChat, Safari etc.. all run fine.

Cheers,
JS

parm
10-29-2003, 06:29 AM
I've had panther for a couple of days on a G4 and have had the curser going mad all over the place when dragging points etc. But I changed the input device from mouse to tablet indisplay options while still using 3 button mouse & it seems to work OK like that

mlinde
10-29-2003, 08:39 AM
Who has Panther and another version of OS X on one machine, and what are the problems you are experiencing?

I'm curious about this because this will mean Panther is the first version of Mac OS in about 7 years that doesn't support multiple versions of the OS on partitions/drives. It seems a bit bass-ackwards, if you know what I mean.

The question I'm trying to get answered is if the problem is the multiple OS's or sharing user folders somehow (which would cause inconsistent preferences).

Thanks!

paintboy
10-29-2003, 09:51 AM
i am curious about this as well.
i have been watching macintouch and mac fixit for days now and have not seen a single mention of such.
every computer in this studio has multiple drives and assorted itterations
of osX/9 and i can swap as i please.
how would the os on one drive affect the
operation of an os on another?
does panther modify the hardware, firmware,or change pram in someway?
that makes it unreadable to the previous sys?
can somebody explain why this would be?

tallscot
10-29-2003, 10:22 AM
I've had iTunes freeze my entire system, requiring a restart, twice yesterday while I was in the middle of a 2 hour After Effects rendering - twice!

Yes, I have the latest iTunes update.

Once, it was when I launched iTunes. The second time was when I quit iTunes.

My Panther is on my main drive, however my music library is on my external FireWire drive. I'm guessing that it has something to do with that. The drive behaves normally, and I've never ever seen this before Panther.

Obviously, we will see an update for Panther soon.

Again, Jaguar never ever crashed on me, or froze. AE and iTunes have always been stable as a rock, along with my FW drive. It's just a bug in Panther that needs fixing, I'm assuming.

turbo
10-29-2003, 11:28 AM
Thumbs up to Scott for taking the time from his demanding schedule to acknowledge and define the panther/lw situation.

Ima gonna wait until i hear about the cross/drive multiple OS version situation being addressed.. can't afford any more lost time..

turbo
10-29-2003, 04:01 PM
... heheh.. and only 5 days (3 business days) to get from the east coast to the west.. (must be some notes on my file.. hehe :D )

:eek: ...scared, tho. .. ima gonna see if it can be tested on the ibook before i try it on me own desktops...


... yes.. i am aware it won't be the same on different types of systems and also that it may be system specific..

i'll prolly wait till y'all have no lw/panther show stoppers newayz :cool:

Ge4-ce
10-29-2003, 04:41 PM
Ok... battle agains curiosity has begon.. There's a black WILD animal sitting on the edge of my desktop.. It is marked with a bright shiny iron X on it..

AND I CANNOT INSTALL IT... :(


Boee hoee whooeee...


"SMACK! get a grip on yourself Ge4-ce"

But it is so frustrating... Boeh hoe hoe..

"Be patient! Scott and his team are gonna fix it soon! I promise you :D "


:rolleyes: sorry.. could't help myself.. just everyone is so excited about the new features...

Johnny
10-29-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by turbo
:eek: ...scared, tho. .. ima gonna see if it can be tested on the ibook before i try it on me own desktops...

I can tell you that it rocks on the iBook...I don't have LW on my iBook, but the whole system is faster and the new finder is great.

J

tallscot
10-29-2003, 05:04 PM
Yes, it rocks.

Jimzip
10-29-2003, 08:06 PM
I just want to clarify.
Having OS 9 and OS X on different partitions/drives is fine, there is no problem there. It's when you have multiple X versions. 10.3 on your main HD for example and 10.2.8 etc on other drives.
I haven't had a problem since I ejected my other drive with 10.2.8 on it, (as in, no crashing) the OpenGL bugs are still there of course.

Also,

Originally posted by paintboy
how would the os on one drive affect the
operation of an os on another?
does panther modify the hardware, firmware,or change pram in someway?
that makes it unreadable to the previous sys?
can somebody explain why this would be?

From comments people made a while ago on other forums, there were two different versions of 10.2.7 . One for the G4, and one for the G5. Most of the people here know that. Since G5's shipped with 10.3 installed, they shouldn't have a problem, because Apple tested the configurations and they know it works. But are the OS's still split? (As in, are there now simultaneous OS versions released for each architecture?) Obviously there is still the OpenGL problem, but no doubt that's being worked on. And thank you Scott for giving feedback, it is appreciated.
But maybe there's something in the version of Panther that we bought that is meant for the G5 architecture? That could explain crashes, and freezes. Or maybe it was to do with Panther trying to use Jaguar system files on another drive/partition etc..

Can anyone here with a G5 (Turbo I think?) validate my comments on having problems with crashing or freezes?

Jimzip :D

themaxx
10-29-2003, 08:49 PM
my G5 didn't come with 10.3 installed.

Jimzip
10-29-2003, 09:31 PM
Hmm. 10.2.7 ?
I thought they were all coming with Panther now?

Jimzip :D

themaxx
10-29-2003, 09:36 PM
the new ones probably do, but mine arrived before panther was out.

mlinde
10-29-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Jimzip
Hmm. 10.2.7 ?
I thought they were all coming with Panther now?
Yes, this was a discussion in this thread earlier. At some point Apple starts pressing new HDs with 10.3. Whether that is before or after the official release date is in question (I would expect that they start pressing HDs within a couple of days of official release). However, a boxed machine "on the showroom floor" will have 10.2.7 most likely, especially the single processor models, since they have been in greater availability longer. A new, BTO Mac will probably come with 10.3, and no going back unless you have another around with 10.2.7 on it.

Pensart
10-30-2003, 01:47 AM
Wil it be a matter of "days" to release the fix or do i have to reinstall my jaguar licence? Please let us know Newtek.
:confused: :mad:

turbo
10-30-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Jimzip
I just want to clarify.
Having OS 9 and OS X on different partitions/drives is fine, there is no problem there. It's when you have multiple X versions. 10.3 on your main HD for example and 10.2.8 etc on other drives.
I haven't had a problem since I ejected my other drive with 10.2.8 on it, (as in, no crashing) the OpenGL bugs are still there of course.

Also,


From comments people made a while ago on other forums, there were two different versions of 10.2.7 . One for the G4, and one for the G5. Most of the people here know that. Since G5's shipped with 10.3 installed, they shouldn't have a problem, because Apple tested the configurations and they know it works. But are the OS's still split? (As in, are there now simultaneous OS versions released for each architecture?) Obviously there is still the OpenGL problem, but no doubt that's being worked on. And thank you Scott for giving feedback, it is appreciated.
But maybe there's something in the version of Panther that we bought that is meant for the G5 architecture? That could explain crashes, and freezes. Or maybe it was to do with Panther trying to use Jaguar system files on another drive/partition etc..

Can anyone here with a G5 (Turbo I think?) validate my comments on having problems with crashing or freezes?

Jimzip :D

I only have one drive in me G5 so far. I'm on a network with 7 other computers and 3 are macs. Can't remember having to power off or reset (does it even have a reset button?) since I got this baby.. She's pretty sweet, no crashes, all.. It boots up so fast its scary..

Whats REALLY cool is how I power on me G5..
There's a power button on the Apple Cinema display. CLASS! ... all soft and glowy.. :cool:

DP G5 2 GHZ
OSX 10.2.8 (G5)
stock ATI video card
1.5 GIGs RAM
LW 7.5


However... on my DP G4 I have 3 drives and one is partitioned.. On my G4 I have multiple versions of X... The only problem was to make sure I have all my alias' mapped to the correct path.. and the keychain thing can get a bit screwy...

Didn't partition the G5 drive.. tho.. thinkin of one day just putting another drive in the extra bay..

themaxx
10-30-2003, 10:39 AM
On the "objects jumping around" issue: I've noticed that if I go to the login window via the user switching menu, then log back in, the mouse tracking seems to be set at ludicrous speed. It calms down after a click or two, but I wonder if the objects jumping around issue is related.

Anyone else notice this?

Scott_NewTek
10-30-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by themaxx
On the "objects jumping around" issue: I've noticed that if I go to the login window via the user switching menu, then log back in, the mouse tracking seems to be set at ludicrous speed. It calms down after a click or two, but I wonder if the objects jumping around issue is related.

Anyone else notice this?

I think you'll find it is just a related glitch.

Check out the Mac Faq on tech support... but the short answer is, select Tablet mode in your Input Device preferences and it will stop jumping around!

-Scott

Pensart
10-30-2003, 02:56 PM
Hi Scot,

But what about the crash when trying to acces the graph editor. Just one klik on a keyframe and bam!
The glitches i could live with but the cold crash?
Where unable to animate anything!

Scott_NewTek
10-30-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Pensart
Hi Scott,

But what about the crash when trying to acces the graph editor. Just one klik on a keyframe and bam!
The glitches i could live with but the cold crash?
Where unable to animate anything!

Yes, I know... that one is not so easily worked around. Just don't use OpenGL and you will be fine... :-) Oh, right, not possible. Details! :-)

Seriously, we are working on a fix. Sorry about that.

-Scott

Johnny
10-30-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek


Seriously, we are working on a fix. Sorry about that.

-Scott


Hi, Scott;

Might this be a fix for the current Mac version of Lightwave, or only for LW8?

J

fabmedia
10-30-2003, 04:17 PM
I just saw this thread and boy oh boy.

LW 7.5 on my dual 867 under Panther is really funny.... sporatic and arbitrary movement when trying to adjust an object or camera. After some unspecified amount of time, I lose the ability to use any hot keys (move, rotate, etc....) or change the menus, click on the menu items within the main window. The panels are fine, but everything else is screwed.

Any solutions? And no... I don't have time to reinstall Jaguar right now...

Arlen

themaxx
10-30-2003, 04:42 PM
you can fix the sporadic object movement by switching to tablet input mode.

fabmedia
10-30-2003, 04:57 PM
Tablet mode? How do I do that? AND does that mean I have to use my Wacom tablet? Sorry that I'm asking this question but I don't have time to look it up in the manual. I have 4 deadlines due for the end of day. I have one hour.... (it's 4pm PST)

Cheers!

Arlen

themaxx
10-30-2003, 05:00 PM
no, you don't have to use a tablet. just go to general preferences (press 'o') and there's an option:

http://rocketsheep.com/temp/tabletMode.jpg

Jimzip
10-30-2003, 05:52 PM
fabmedia/Adrien, why did you upgrade to Panther in the middle of the project!? :D :D :D!
I did the same thing and I'm kicking myself for it! lol

(You'd think after three screw ups I'd have taken heed of the: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." saying, but I'm a sucker for new software!)

Jimzip :D

pdrake
10-30-2003, 06:04 PM
i bought my g5 in the middle of a project and got the free upgrade. i won't even upgrade to 7.5c in the middle of a project. not with a 3 week deadline. maybe i'm just a little older and experienced, but that's taboo.

(have learned things the hard way)

leapoffaith
10-30-2003, 07:09 PM
Sort of off-topic, but it is an issue with Panther...

I just noticed that Apple has confirmed an external FireWire problem. Apparently, it only affects extrenal FireWire devices that use an Oxford 922 chip and are FireWire 800 devices (are they one and the same... are Oxford 922 chips only in FireWire 800 devices? How would I know? I'm just a bass-playing cartoonist).

I guess I'll have to hook up my drive to my iBook and see what happens...

Here's the article: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/30/firewireissue/index.php?redirect=1067542466000

mrxd
10-30-2003, 08:23 PM
I am running Lightwave 7.5c on a dual 1GHz G4, 1.5GB RAM and a nVidia GeForce Ti 4600 card. I haven't tried Layout since I installed Panther but I have tried Modeler.

I found that the mouse/cursor problem exists there too. At first it seems that the cursor will jump in an arbitrary fashion when you are trying to rotate, zoom or move within the viewport and when you are physically moving pixels (move, bevel, etc). After a little while it seemed to me that there is some logic to this erratic behavior. The cursor seems to jump in the same direction and the same amount as you moved the mouse just prior to performing what ever action that showed the erratic movement. It seems to 'remember' the last mouse movement. I have reduced this by making an additional tiny movement (whenever I can remember) with the mouse before I try to do any delicate motions.

It's a huge hassle. I hope they can fix it soon.

themaxx
10-30-2003, 08:30 PM
switch to tablet mode and it will stop.

it's in display options, under the interface tab.

Scott_NewTek
10-30-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by mrxd
I am running Lightwave 7.5c on a dual 1GHz G4, 1.5GB RAM and a nVidia GeForce Ti 4600 card. I haven't tried Layout since I installed Panther but I have tried Modeler.

I found that the mouse/cursor problem exists there too. At first it seems that the cursor will jump in an arbitrary fashion when you are trying to rotate, zoom or move within the viewport and when you are physically moving pixels (move, bevel, etc). After a little while it seemed to me that there is some logic to this erratic behavior. The cursor seems to jump in the same direction and the same amount as you moved the mouse just prior to performing what ever action that showed the erratic movement. It seems to 'remember' the last mouse movement. I have reduced this by making an additional tiny movement (whenever I can remember) with the mouse before I try to do any delicate motions.

It's a huge hassle. I hope they can fix it soon.

Just use Tablet mode... really! It works! It is jsut a different way for us to read the mouse, and it happens that it fixes the glitch.

Apple's underlying mouse locating protocol is changing to callback events instead of polling. So... our old algorithm for reading the mouse in normal mode doesn't quite work... but the tablet mode did things a little different and it reads the mouse in such a way that it is not affected by this change in behavior. No big deal ... we are lucky we had the Tablet mode! Try it, you'll see...

-Scott

mrxd
10-30-2003, 08:35 PM
I tried the 'tablet' mode and it worked just fine. Thanks! Now I can go back to my usual cruddy modelling and not have anything to blame it on.

Miles
10-31-2003, 01:32 AM
I'm not sure what to say, except call it as it's seen here. I updated to OSX.3 and while a few out of dozens of regular apps used had initial issues they all now work fine after updating (not upgrading) them. I'm well aware of the arguments for why NT hasn't an update for LW-Mac issues with the new OS, but it does reflect poorly (again) on NT's support for it's Mac loyalists. I never would've thought to own a PC before LW-Mac issues yet there I was early this year building a PC, just for LW use. IF I hadn't spent those funds on PC hardware NT might've had me ordering a LW8 upgrade. Now that prospect is in serious question with only so much budgeting. Seeing first hand that out of all the apps needing an update for use with OSX.3 LW will again be the last to function, properly. It is, well it's just disappointing... Regardless of the fact that I was able to build a PC and -could- now ignore the LW-Mac issues I realize not all Mac loyalist have a PC on hand to pick up the slack, so it still doesn't sit well here.

The fact that Mac users haven't had an equally fair compositing upgrade bundle offer for equal number of months too is an additional poor impression on a still loyal mac user here.

Sorry, just venting, as I see once again LW is THE app on Macs here which is coming up with the short end of the stick. I'm almost considering selling LW and the PC I built for it both and be done with jumping through hoop$ for NT when I see all my other apps on the Mac working fine...

Maybe I just need some sleep and try and look at it all differently tomorrow, but I have a feeling unless after I open my eyes if I don't see a LW-Mac update posted and an equally offered LW8+Shake 3 compositing bundle upgrade I'll still be feeling bent, :eek: bent over that is... :mad: Been feeling mighty Foolish being a LW owner for a while now and I hope that changes, FAST.

Ge4-ce
10-31-2003, 04:32 AM
Miles,.. They are working on it like hell! They know the issue, now I guess Newtek works a lot to fix it!

Also.. Remember a few threads earlier , when I said I would not install Panther until the fix was available? The one with the black beast shining on the shelve and I could not (did not want to) install it?

Guess what.. I did it!! The beast bit me!! I installed it!!:rolleyes: Even I know I have issues now with LW.. why?? Do they put any drugs in those black Pantherboxes??? :D I don't know but.. Oh wait.. have to play with Expose for a while... aaaaaahh I'm addicted!!

designvs
10-31-2003, 07:37 AM
You know what, screw Newtek! I'm gonna do something I should have done long ago....switch to an industry standard application! I'm lucky that I work at a University and I can get Maya complete for fairly cheap thru Journeyed.com . They have Maya 5 Jumpstart Student Ver. Complete MAC which also has several tutorials for only $599.98!!! Lightwave and Newtek headaches be gone!!!!

http://www.journeyed.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?UID=2003103109230470&GEN0=&GEN1=&GEN2=&GEN3=&GEN4=&GEN5=&GEN6=&GEN7=&GEN8=&GEN9=index2.html&TRAN85=Y&T1=32816471N+F&FNM=00&UREQA=2&UREQB=1&UREQC=3&UREQD=4

TyVole
10-31-2003, 07:59 AM
Are you positive Maya doesn't have problems with Panther?

Johnny
10-31-2003, 08:02 AM
I'm no expert on Maya, but a few times I've visited their Mac board, there was just as much kvetching about various issues as there is here...things busted or not available, lack of platform parity, bugs..

You may just be exchanging for a new set of problems.

J

mlinde
10-31-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Miles
I'm well aware of the arguments for why NT hasn't an update for LW-Mac issues with the new OS, but it does reflect poorly (again) on NT's support for it's Mac loyalists.
Yeah, and the fact that Apple changed it's core mouse behavior for the first time since the advent of the Mac mouse has nothing to do with it, and the fact that Apple screwed with its implementation of OpenGL again has nothing to do with it.

Frankly, what would make this easier on developers is if Apple documented changes like this and passed those documents on to developers. And saying "core OpenGL enhancements" doesn't count.

Miles, just in case you haven't noticed, the new guy at Newtek (Scott) has been thrown into the fire. He's got enough responsibilities out of the gate to confound anyone. The guy has been on the job a couple of months, and probably has hundreds of specific tasks beyond the global "Mac programming support" he's been labeled with here. Even if Newtek were privy to the release date of 10.3 (and they weren't), making the current release of Lightwave (and the one in development) work with the current OS (which until 7 days ago was 10.2) is much more important than devoting your energies to an OS which may or may not come out before January.

Yes, now that 10.3 is out Newtek needs to deal with it. For those of you not keeping track, they are. There has been official recognition of the problems in the Graph Editor with 10.3, and there will be a resolution, I'm sure. I'm also not in the least surprised that Scott doesn't say when or how that will come about. His job is to program, not to make company policy. Now those of you who still haven't figured it out, a couple of tips:
1. NEVER upgrade ANYTHING in the middle of a project.
2. NEVER put a new version of software in production until it's been tested on a non-essential production-comparable machine.
3. NEVER expect an upgrade to work 95% out of the box.
I ran 10.1.5 on my primary production machine for 4 months after the release of 10.2, and I had a copy of the software running on a secondary machine most of that time. I know a guy who ran 8.6 on his Mac up until he bought a G4 (one month ago). It worked, it did what he needed, and the possibility of improvements wasn't worth the pain of upgrades. Yes a faster, shinier OS would be nice. But if the one you are using works, and you are working on it, don't mess with it until you have the time for it not to work.

Karl Hansson
10-31-2003, 10:34 AM
I heard from people that there's other applications than LW that have problems with Panther. And some FireWire 800 disks have stoped working under Panther.

crusher
10-31-2003, 12:46 PM
i'm on a dual gig
having all the same bug probs
as discussed..but i wanted to know if anyone is noticing slower render times in panther.????

brumbaer
10-31-2003, 01:43 PM
Yes,
especially when using multiple threads.
Instead of faster, it gets much slower (2 to 3 times)
using a Dual G5 and Panther.

Regards
SH

Miles
10-31-2003, 04:48 PM
mlinde, I too have been dealing with system upgrade issues since the early 80's and had my now core Mac app (FCPv4) not required an OS upgrade I too would've held off. I was previously using X.1.5 and FCPv4 requires X.2.5 or later. Since X.3 was coming out and LW is not my core Mac app now an upgrade to X.3 (regardless of the early adopter risks) seemed a little wiser (longterm) over buying an outdated OS (X.2). I know NT is suppose to be addressing issues LW has with OSX.3 I'm just also venting that I can continue to put myself in other Mac users shoes that haven't a PC to fall back on for use of LW and think this is not good, again... I say again because I never would've had to fork out to build a PC if the Mac version of LW were on equal footing with it's PC version. I doubt when the next XP release comes out that a LW8 update will not be ready the same day.

Again, I now have the option of forgetting about LW-Mac issues since I built the PC for LW, but my frustration continues for you all since it appears the only OSX.3 app still broken (here anyways) is LW-Mac. I wouldn't have even bothered to mention it had that point not slapped me in the face yesterday when I was done testing apps under OSX.3 and was brought back to the old feeling I had last year at this time when deciding how to deal with LW-Mac issues then.

Now I'm asked to upgrade to LW8 for $$$ how much after all that AND again still being very much a Mac man I'm asked to $pend that with a company that tilts so far to the PC that the $pecial bundle offer will leave Mac folks out of a "deal" of equal standing... Even being able to use LW on a PC now I'm questioning how much I want to $upport a continued unbalanced situation. Venting OFF I need to get back to work. Take care all...

leapoffaith
10-31-2003, 10:53 PM
If anyone's interested, you can set up a dual boot system with 10.2.8 and 10.3 successfully if you have two internal drives. OWC has internal 7200 RPM drives on sale at $68 for a 60 GB drive (www.macsales.com). Not the optimal situation, but a tolerable workaround; after NT fixes Lightwave, you'll have a decent backup drive.

FLGB
11-02-2003, 04:25 AM
I just hope that the correction that Newtek is working on will not be released in one month like the second version of 7.5c for mac. Do you remember?

Ge4-ce
11-02-2003, 07:19 AM
I also notice that LW crashes a lot when using in panther..

I mean.. I don't know if the Opengl bugs that causes the graph editor crash and the twisting objects and the transparenty problem also causes these things..

I don't use these things at this moment (more modeling and rendering stills) but a lot of times when I hit F9, LW crashes!

maybe there is also a memory problem? cause the scenes are rather heavy..

Just letting U know.

brumbaer
11-02-2003, 08:45 AM
I doubt that there is an OpenGL problem (but I do not know for sure of course).

The reasons are:
Empty scene
Open Graph Editor
Move the frame slider nothing happens.

Empty scene
Add a key anwhere (i.e. for the default camera)
Open Graph Editor
Move the frame slider
Crash.

Also on my Mac there are problems when switching between Modeller and Layout.

The Hub talks about Memory allocation errors.

All in all it looks more like a thread/memory allocation problem.

Regards
SH

Ge4-ce
11-02-2003, 08:52 AM
Scott from Newtek (department Mac) allready identified the grapheditor problem as an OpenGL bug..

But I wouldn't be surprised if there are more problems.. (with memory etc..)

based on previous experirience.. how long does it take the Newtek team to fix something like this? anyone?

And how long will it take for LW 8 to ship?
they said 4th quarter, why do they not say december 30th??

It's driving my crazy.. being curious about LW 8...

TyVole
11-02-2003, 10:03 AM
It's impossible to know (or guess) how long it will take them to fix these problems. It could be something simple (which I doubt) or something terribly complicated.

So, hope for the best and expect the worst.

Many people received e-mails categorically stating that v8 will be released before Christmas.

Karl Hansson
11-02-2003, 12:20 PM
These problems are really anoying. I really want to by G5 to run LW on but with all these problems I keep hearing of I'm very doubtful. I got the money and everything but I'll hold of buying until I see that things is getting better.

I'm a computer animation student at Bournemouth university (UK) and I live two minutes frome the computer lab (Maya Ultimate on linux) so I don't really need a computer of my own... But I really want a G5.

Of topic:
I realise that I don't know every thing about Maya yet having been on Maya Ultimate for only roughly six weeks now. In my opinion Mayas modeling tools doesn't come close to LWs modeling tools. I hate the way you model in Maya, for the price that you have to pay for maya the modeling tools really suck, big time (I really miss LW modeler).

themaxx
11-02-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Karl Hansson
These problems are really anoying. I really want to by G5 to run LW on but with all these problems I keep hearing of I'm very doubtful.

FWIW, the problems seem to be related to Panther, not the G5. I'm running LW under Panther on a G5 and am not having any problems. (I'm mostly modeling right now so I'm not really having to face the graph editor issue.)

Get the G5!

fabmedia
11-02-2003, 01:29 PM
Jimzip,

No I didn't upgrade in the middle of a project, but I was creating an image for an email promotion, BUT I am about to start a HUGE project, which I'm not too sure what to do about. It's going to last some 2.5 months and time is everything.


So I do know that Panther installed on the old iMacs is just too much. You have to have a whole crap-load of RAM for it to run decently. It's driving my wife nuts, and I'm forced to revert the os back to OS 10.2. Sigh. I get a little disappointed everyonce in a while.

I haven't tried the tablet mode thing yet but I'm sure it'll work.


I guess I should also mention this... I've had printer problems, hard drive install problems and a variety of other things that came about when I upload panther on my machines.

- another sigh -
Arlen

fabmedia
11-02-2003, 01:33 PM
oh yeah, before I really forget...

has anybody noticed that every once in a while that clicking the interface just stops? Things like 's' for save still works but you can't use any other keys or click any buttons in the main window.

I'm curious if anyone else has had this happen?

Arlen

Scott Gammans
11-02-2003, 01:52 PM
Now that you mention it, YES... but not in LightWave (at least I haven't noticed it yet in LW). But in MacMegaPOV (the patched Macintosh version of the freeware POV-Ray raytracer) I have noticed that the text editor window will sometimes refuse to accept further keyboard input. The application doesn't freeze, mind you... you just can't edit anymore and you have to exit & re-enter the program. I have also noticed this same anomaly in the TextEdit utility... sometimes I will type a key and Macintosh will make that "burp" noise and won't let me type any text. Again, TextEdit isn't frozen; it just no longer accepts keyboard input.

Methinks this could be a Panther bug of some sort, since I'm seeing it in two different applications and now you're reporting it in a third (LW).

fabmedia
11-02-2003, 01:57 PM
It gets to the point where I can't rotate, move or size objects in LW. This is an issue....

arlen

Ge4-ce
11-02-2003, 02:55 PM
Yes fabmedia! I did notice that as well! Also that all the buttons in my user-interface disapear! I had that problem once in LW 6! restarting LW was and is the solution to that..

Man... oh man.. to many problems!

SCOTT!! If you solve it in less than 2 weeks I'll send you a box of Belgian Chocolate!! :D Best in the Market..

Beamtracer
11-02-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
SCOTT!! If you solve it in less than 2 weeks I'll send you a box of Belgian Chocolate!! I guess that means you'll send Newtek a box of chocolates with your upgrade money for Lightwave 8.

Ge4-ce
11-03-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I guess that means you'll send Newtek a box of chocolates with your upgrade money for Lightwave 8.


LOL! no not really... I bought 7.5 with the DFX package.. I have a free LW 8 on hold.. :cool: I really ment that I would send a box of belgian chocolats to the Newtek Mac team for fixing the bug(s).. :D

But I'm pretty convinced they can't do it in less than 2 weeks :o (pssst... this keeps them motivated but don't tell them!)

Red_Oddity
11-03-2003, 03:07 AM
Well, look on the bright side....
At least we can use Simpletext with more than 4Gigs of memory now:D

Chuck
11-03-2003, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Miles
I doubt when the next XP release comes out that a LW8 update will not be ready the same day.


If that happened it would be a first. We have had countless occasions when a Windows new release or service pack was issued and caused a problem, and not once have we released a new LW update to account for it the same day, or at all prior to our next maintenance update being completed. In those cases where the issue results from a bug introduced into the OS code, we do not adapt to the bug - we wait for the fix from the OS manufacturer, like the rest of the users. If the issue is due to a change in behavior that the OS manufacturer intends to be a permanent new feature - then we adapt during the next maintenance cycle or at those times when the adaptation requires extensive and complex changes, at the next major update. There is no difference in the procedures and timing of our adjustments for OS changes for each platform supported.

dmg3d
11-03-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
If the issue is due to a change in behavior that the OS manufacturer intends to be a permanent new feature - then we adapt during the next maintenance cycle or at those times when the adaptation requires extensive and complex changes, at the next major update. There is no difference in the procedures and timing of our adjustments for OS changes for each platform supported.

Hi Chuck-

If there were changes to the OS in the Panther update that cause problems for LW (eg - OpenGL),

1) where does a maintenance update for people NOT upgrading to LW8 fall in that cycle? (this quarter? next?)

2) is LW8 too far along that these issues won't be addressed until a maintenance update for 8?

Thanks
-Dave

Beamtracer
11-03-2003, 01:29 PM
I think you could read between the lines of Chuck's statement (above) that Lightwave 8 will be your fix for Panther.

We know that LW8 will be released before the end of the year (Newtek already said that). I don't think they'll release it on Christmas eve. So, I predict that Newtek will release LW8 within the next 7 weeks.

Sure, it's frustrating that a Panther-compatible version of Lightwave will be a paid upgrade (I wish that everything was free!!!). On the other hand, it's probably no different to what other software vendors (such as Adobe) do.

I guess it'll be a compelling reason to upgrade to Lightwave 8.

Pensart
11-03-2003, 02:25 PM
If this would be the case then it would be very disapointing.
I already upgraded to the Dfx+ bundle so i'm entitled to download the lw8 for free but what about al those users who wish to wait awile with upgrading? Does this mean that all these people have to reinstall jaguar.
This would be a serieous discrimination.
I dont think Newtek would do this, they said they are working on a fix and never mentioned that the fix would be Lw8.

Ge4-ce
11-03-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

Sure, it's frustrating that a Panther-compatible version of Lightwave will be a paid upgrade (I wish that everything was free!!!). On the other hand, it's probably no different to what other software vendors (such as Adobe) do.

I guess it'll be a compelling reason to upgrade to Lightwave 8.


Mmm Beam.. I don't know that for sure.. Scott told us that he is working on a fix.. if it is true what you say.. Newtek should fully take responsibity and say LOUD and CLEAR that current LW 7.5 is not and WILL not be compatible with panther. Than everyone knows what he/she is up to..

you cannot expect that we all guess that! but I do not believe that. I think a patch will be released for current LW 7.5 users! when.. that's a whole other issue.

Also.. I do hope LW 8 will be released sooner than 7 or 8 weeks from here.. because.. if you count :) that is almost christmas eve!! :p ;)

brumbaer
11-03-2003, 04:50 PM
Ok, I'm done.

I bought LW a week ago to use it on my Dual G5.
I run Panther (I'm a developer) since some months with glitches but no crashes. And since 7B85, about a month ago, without any problems.

I just expected LW to work as nothing hinted that there would be problems with either Panther or G5s.

But in the last week I spent probably 30% of my time with LW and the rest of the time with LW problems. Even going back to 10.2.8 (G5) didn't cure all problems like key strokes and mouse input being locked out or lost communication between modeller and layout. Other things which took my fancy are that my Athlon 3GHz is up to 3 times faster (usually abut 20%) than my Dual G5 while rendering scenes (seems to be related to HyperVoxels). I already (other thread) mentioned that using multiple threads slows rendering down by a factor of three (on 10.3 as well as on 10.2.8). This all creates the feeling that the Mac is not well supported, but I do want to do the stuff on the Mac.

I haven't invested too much time into LW to be a waste. And the sidegrade to what I will use from tomorrow on (so UPS will) costs more, but I do not loose any money compared to buying the software in the first place (I've got LW for free so to say).

I looked at Carrara which feels too limited, at Maya which looks even more half-heartedly Mac than LW (there is no Mac product but the "complete version". The "unlimited" for Mac is not even on the horizon and no plug-ins for Mac (at least nothing I could find quickly), which doesn't create trust into a Mac future. Of course I hope to be proved wrong).

So I will use Cinema 4D hopefully with more luck. The feature list looks good, the software runs under Panther, they even know about the existence of G5 processors and have plans to support it. All software and plug ins are available for Mac and PC.
The relative render times on G5, G4 and Athlon are reasonable. The scripting language looks more modern and less patched (sorry, but LScript looks like it was started some time ago and than patches and features were added, where needed, but not integrated "language wide").

I'm sure as soon as I work with Cinema 4D there will be problems and surley some curses, but I hope they will be related to understanding the program and ways of implementation or missing features and not just about getting the program to run.

I hope this didn't transform too much into a rant, but I just wasted a week of time and feel frustrated about it.

It was nice to have met you all.

Regards
SH

Chuck
11-04-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by brumbaer
Ok, I'm done.

I bought LW a week ago to use it on my Dual G5.
I run Panther (I'm a developer)


What do you develop?


since some months with glitches but no crashes. And since 7B85, about a month ago, without any problems.

Cool progress that Apple is making now on the OS. We only just got a DPG5 ourselves, and Apple is being very helpful on our planning for optimizing.


I just expected LW to work as nothing hinted that there would be problems with either Panther or G5s.

The G5 came well after our last update to LW, and Panther only just now, so in fact we had no way to know how the current software was going to behave on these new elements. Not sure why you include the G5 though, given the results here:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12836

which seem as though LW is in fact a happy camper with the new processor. There are issues with Panther, and we're working on those. I suspect that LW [8] will be just fine with Panther on release.

We had no way to know that there would be problems, otherwise we would certainly have let folks know.

mlinde
11-04-2003, 01:10 PM
Hey Chuck, any chance that a 7.5 update will exist for 10.3? I know, 8 is due out any month now, but for those of us without $500 in the bank, but maybe $120, could you guys consider releasing a 7.5 patch for 10.3?

Thanks.

Beamtracer
11-04-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
Hey Chuck,...
...could you guys consider releasing a 7.5 patch for 10.3?If Newtek released 7.5D for Panther, they'd then release LW8 a matter of days later. It would be hard to sell LW8 if it was released so soon after 7.5D.

I received my G5, which came with Panther. I was ready for this though, having read all the earlier reports. I acquired a 10.2.7 disk and the first thing I did was erase the drive and install 10.2.7.

Lightwave 7.5c seems to be running fine on the G5 with 10.2.7 so far, though I haven't given it a really big work-out yet.

So, for anyone considering purchasing a G5, chances are you won't get OS10.2.7 in the box. You should check with your Apple dealer, or Apple themselves, or a friend / colleague, and make sure you get a 10.2.7 disk to run Lightwave.

Originally posted by Chuck
Apple is being very helpful on our planning for optimizingIt's good to hear that Apple is taking an interest in Newtek and Lightwave.

My guess is that Apple will release an "emergency" update to Panther very very soon. Given the Firewire800 erase bug, I expect to see OS 10.3.1 released in the next week, but that's just my guess.

mlinde
11-04-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
If Newtek released 7.5D for Panther, they'd then release LW8 a matter of days later. It would be hard to sell LW8 if it was released so soon after 7.5D.
I disagree. If Newtek patched 7.5c to work with Panther (releasing a 7.5d) that's totally different than Lightwave 8. I'm not asking for a free upgrade to 8, I'm asking that a patch to 7.5 be made available so that it works with Mac OS 10.3. These are (in my mind) two totally different things. In addition, since there are existing bugs in 7.5c (like the fact that 80% of LScripts won't work because of a code-bug) a final 7.5 maintenance release would be a good PR move, IMHO. Even if 8 is released days (or weeks) after a 7.5 update, people will still buy 8 for the new features (assuming they could afford 8 to begin with).

dmg3d
11-04-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
In addition, since there are existing bugs in 7.5c (like the fact that 80% of LScripts won't work because of a code-bug) a final 7.5 maintenance release would be a good PR move.

Same thing I was thinking...

You don't want your customers thinking the ONLY way they can continue to use your product is by spending another $500... but I suppose one could argue not to upgrade to Panther if your not upgrading to LW8.

BTW, against better judgement (hey, I'm a glutton for punishment) I installed Panther on one of my 2 internal drives (10.2.6 on the other). Dual G4 1.42. LW 7.5c is installed on both drives (leapoffaith mentioned trying this).

Things are much snappier in Panther. Did get the graph editor crash. Also get an extreme movement when turning an object (close up) in the perspective window in Modeler. THAT is annoying. Also when I started up Modeler for the first time under Panther I was missing tons of buttons, but since I had it on the other internal drive, I just copied over anything related, and everything was back.

Haven't tried rendering yet... (working in Jaguar right now).

-Dave

Scott_NewTek
11-04-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
... since there are existing bugs in 7.5c (like the fact that 80% of LScripts won't work because of a code-bug) ...

Yikes! Can you be more specific? I do not see that one in my bug list for the Mac, is this a PC bug?

Yikes!

-Scott

noiseboy
11-04-2003, 05:08 PM
would this be Lscript 2.6.1's inability to read or write files in 7.5c in Mac os x (don't know about os 9) worked in Lscript 2.5.1 now broken.

brumbaer
11-04-2003, 06:52 PM
<Snip>

Ok, I mentioned that I'm a developer to make you understand why I had access to Panther for some time. Not to make any impression.

"What do you develop? "

Nowadays mainly Java and Cocoa Applications for companies. But before you start to try to discredit me, you should know that I've developed hardware and software for accelerated graphic cards on the Mac in the good old days, before you had NVidia and ATI deliver a chipset and a driver, those were the days when you had to search for graphic processors and cluts and 24 bit colour with 120 Mhz pixel rate was a challenge. And I mean I did so. With a capital I. And I remember enough of those days to recognize this type of cursor movement frenzy to know a cure (if the software allows for it). And if you take the time to go back this thread to page 3 you will see that I posted a note about it on the 27th, but which was seemingly ignored.

"quote:
since some months with glitches but no crashes. And since 7B85, about a month ago, without any problems.


Cool progress that Apple is making now on the OS. We only just got a DPG5 ourselves, and Apple is being very helpful on our planning for optimizing.
"

I refer to Panther and 7B85 has a time stamp of October 7 on the developer website, but I think it was made public before.

Anyway even the 10/7 will have given you at last two weeks time to test with the version which made GM.

My DPG5 was delivered in October, but which isn't really important because many of the bugs appear on G4s as well, most noteable the Graph editor bug.

"
quote:
I just expected LW to work as nothing hinted that there would be problems with either Panther or G5s.
"

The G5 came well after our last update to LW, and Panther only just now, so in fact we had no way to know how the current software was going to behave on these new elements. Not sure why you include the G5 though, given the results here:
"
I can half-heartedly agree on the G5 thing, but it leaves me wondering why you didn't use Apple's test site. But regarding Panther I will not agree. I assume Newtek is a registered developer and has access to the beta versions and is therefore able to test her software against those beta versions. And as already mentioned not all problems with Panther are G5 related (it might be that none of the problems I have are G5 related, I tested only on a G4 with Panther, so probably, if I would reinstall 10.2.x, I might have the same problems, I have with 10.2.8 on the G5 or not. But I do no see any sense in doing those tests (but it would make sense, if it would be my software, which shows such problems).

I mentioned G5 in 10.2.8 (G5), because that is what the version is called and if you do want to try to reconstruct the problem, it will be helpful to know the exact software version used.

"

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthr...&threadid=12836

which seem as though LW is in fact a happy camper with the new processor.
"
I'm not saying that everybody is seeing problems, but I do. And if you read the thread you will realize that all posters use 10.2.8 but not 10.3 so there will be at least no Panther problems. I posted at least two messages asking for comments and if anybody does see similar performance behaviour, but nobody replied, neither a yes nor a no.
By the way, if the guys use the green resize button after LW opened, the window will resize automatically to use the maximum screen space available with the dock, being left free.

There is also a thread about a test in PCMagazine, in which some guys laugh about the testers for not using multithreating in LW, but from what I see, it might be a blessing that the testers, switched off multithreating on the Mac and probably did so, because they got better results.
You tell me to check some threat, but I ask you, whether you had somebody check whether you can reconstruct the performance problem (I see it as a problem, you probably don't). I'm sure nobody contacted me to ask, where the problems show or if they could have a copy of the scene to check. I understand ( I really do) that a lone message, is not enough for you to react, but how many of your users do render and compare the render times on different platforms ?
I wouldn’t have done so, if I hadn’t had the problems on the Mac. And to be true I would not have thought to compare render times, if it wouldn’t have been recognizable just by looking (which as you know hints that the speed difference is at least a factor of 2).

"
There are issues with Panther, and we're working on those. I suspect that LW [8] will be just fine with Panther on release.
"

I'm sure it will, and I understand perfectly, that you prefer to work on LW8 instead to fix an obsolete version 7.5. This is not meant sarcastic, I'm not native English as you will have recognized by now, so if it appears to be sarcastic, please be assured it isn't meant to be, it's just a lack of words.

"We had no way to know that there would be problems, otherwise we would certainly have let folks know.
"
As I said before I do not believe in that. If you are a registered developer you have access to the beta versions of the operating system and even if you chose to ignore them as betas, as soon as the release of the OS is announced, it is time to test your software with the latest beta, which will be surely GM. So you can know some days (7b85 was made public latest on October 7) before release of the OS whether your software will work or not. Of course there are errors, which appear only under certain circumstances and it is possible that QA is not able to detect those, but an error like the Panther vs. Graph Editor doesn't seem to belong into this category.


Probably I'm over sensetive, but I get the feeling that even now, you try to create the impression that I'm an guy who writes Excel Macros and calls himself developer, and that I'm the only one who had ever problems with LW, and surely all my problems are just user errors, because everybody else is just so happy, instead of trying to see wether there is a problem or not.
I think I don't deserve this. What I wrote is true and I gave you specific information on what problems I see (at least compared to "everythg crashes" :) ).

I think we should stop this discussion in public, it's just noise to the others, if you have anything to add, please mail me in private.

Regards
SH

Chuck
11-04-2003, 08:34 PM
I asked what you develop only because I was curious what you develop. We have a lot of folks participate here and they have a wide range of backgrounds and it is very interesting to get to know about folks and what they do.

I reported accurately and factually that we did not know that there would be issues with either G5 or Panther, and that we just got the G5 and just began looking into the latest OS releases available to us. If you feel comfortable disbelieving someone and demeaning their integrity and intentions when in fact you don't know them, that's certainly your choice.

Could we have done something sooner? I don't know - I just know what we did do. Given the rebuilding process we're in it's certainly possible that we didn't take advantage of some avenues that were available - but we're on it now that Scott's aboard, and I can assure you he is pursuing matters with complete diligence. If we were late to the mark, our apologies.

As for the notion that I was trying creating an impression that there were no problems except user error, I am not sure how you arrived at that, since I specifically said that we were aware of issues with Panther and were working on them.

turbo
11-04-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
I disagree. If Newtek patched 7.5c to work with Panther (releasing a 7.5d) that's totally different than Lightwave 8. I'm not asking for a free upgrade to 8, I'm asking that a patch to 7.5 be made available so that it works with Mac OS 10.3. These are (in my mind) two totally different things. In addition, since there are existing bugs in 7.5c (like the fact that 80% of LScripts won't work because of a code-bug) a final 7.5 maintenance release would be a good PR move, IMHO. Even if 8 is released days (or weeks) after a 7.5 update, people will still buy 8 for the new features (assuming they could afford 8 to begin with).

I agree with Mlinde.
We Lightwave users would have more confidence in Newtek and LW8 and be more likely to upgrade to 8 if Newtek released a maintenance patch for 7.5 that addresses Panther issues.

Also it seems pretty unfair that the only application we use that has Panther issues is LW 7.5 .. thus relegating the shiny new Panther box to the shelf at the mercy of Newtek.

Scott Gammans
11-05-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Given the rebuilding process we're in it's certainly possible that we didn't take advantage of some avenues that were availableChuck, what rebuilding process are you talking about? Did something happen that is causing NewTek to be in a rebuilding process?

tallscot
11-05-2003, 11:21 AM
I think Scott already mentioned he's working on a patch for 7.5, so there's no need to get excited about possibly being forced to upgrade to get a LW that works on Panther.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Scott_NewTek
11-05-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
I think Scott already mentioned he's working on a patch for 7.5, so there's no need to get excited about possibly being forced to upgrade to get a LW that works on Panther.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

In a tone circa 1966, "Working..."

-Scott

Johnny
11-05-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
In a tone circa 1966, "Working..."

-Scott

well, I appreciate that (in the tone of one who intends to upgrade, but for now, finds the financial holdings less than vast).

J

Beamtracer
11-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Read Chuck's post again. No special patch to fix one bug. The fix will come with the next major upgrade. The next major upgrade is Lightwave 8, due for release in a matter of weeks.

So folks, you may as well psychologically adjust to this now. Start saving your pennies.

One day in the not too distant future, Newtek is going to suddenly announce "Lightwave 8 has now been released" and you're all going to be sulking for that free update that didn't happen.

Sure I'd like a new Panther-savvy version of Lightwave to be free, but a dose of reality says that such things cost money.

Chucks post is quoted again below. Read it again. He is responding to a remark that if it was a Windows problem a LW patch would be ready the same day...


Originally posted by Chuck
If that happened it would be a first. We have had countless occasions when a Windows new release or service pack was issued and caused a problem, and not once have we released a new LW update to account for it the same day, or at all prior to our next maintenance update being completed. In those cases where the issue results from a bug introduced into the OS code, we do not adapt to the bug - we wait for the fix from the OS manufacturer, like the rest of the users. If the issue is due to a change in behavior that the OS manufacturer intends to be a permanent new feature - then we adapt during the next maintenance cycle or at those times when the adaptation requires extensive and complex changes, at the next major update. There is no difference in the procedures and timing of our adjustments for OS changes for each platform supported.

TyVole
11-05-2003, 03:53 PM
What if someone buys that half-priced, 7.5-only Mac version for use on a Panther-installed Mac? Is Newtek gonna say, "Sorry, dude -- you have to pay an additional $500 if you want it to work"?

I don't think so.

Red_Oddity
11-06-2003, 05:27 AM
What i don't get is...

Everybody knows there are problems with Panther (it's a new OS, by now as a OSX user you should be aware that Apple has never released a bug free OSX [update])
Yet, everybody goes installing Panther, even though there are no real advantages to be found for it on current setups (unless you bought $4000 worth of memory with the OS, or if you just have to use Labels again)...
Then there seems to be stuff broken/bugged (shock...that never happened before with OSX....), and you all go whining and bitching at Chuck and all the other folk at Newtek how they 'screwed' you all by making a LW that doesn't work on the latest hardware with the latest OS...well...boo f-ing hoo...get over it you bunch of whiners...

When my LW on my Mac or Windows box acts funny after an update i uninstall (yup that annoying stone age feature of Windows that has no use in the eye of the Mac zealot) that update or re-install my previous OS ...

My advise...you probably still have that Jaguar install disc lying around ...use it or do a dual boot install....
How to do that can be found here : http://www.macosxhints.com

Red_Oddity
11-06-2003, 05:41 AM
hmmm...my previous post might sound a bit harsh...but i'm not withdrawing any of statements...

here's another tip that might have been mentioned before...

IF IT AIN'T BROKE...DON'T FIX IT!

reyMoskito
11-06-2003, 10:46 AM
(
and you all go whining and bitching at Chuck and all the other folk at Newtek how they 'screwed' you all by making a LW that doesn't work on the latest hardware with the latest OS...well...boo f-ing hoo...get over it you bunch of whiners...
)

Red:
It´s when one starts offseting the reality just a little bit to make it a little bit more like one's opinion that these things usually happen: a) You loose your credit to the other valuable opinions you might have, b) Other people feel they have the right to offset reality too to get even, c) Some people get offended and start useless misunderstanding wars on threads like this. So please do not exaggerate things, it is better to learn from each other than to prove you [generic] are right or prove your [generic] bad boy attitude.

Now, that said and strictly regarding your opinions:

1) I dont recall anyone in this thread go bitching at Chuck, only people asking them for a quick adaptation to a new OS, which is something that goes in their own interest too. We know it is not Newtek's fault. Some people are only saying maybe they could have reacted earlier, and some other (like me) think they dont give a **** as long as they can start using their new OS with Lightwave, just as they can already use Panther with ALL the rest of apps. Maybe it is not fair that OS makers have everyone dancing at their rithm, but thats the way it goes and always have.

2) Maybe the Panther OS is not worth all the fuzz, Apple's marketing campaign, or the money it costs, or maybe it uses more RAM than Jaguar (that's into everyone's personal choice), but, you know (or should) it is noticeable faster than Jaguar, has a lot of USEFUL features and workflow improvements over Jaguar other than tags (lol). If you dont know them, you will when you take your time learning and exploring it. And by the way, I have installed it on one of my machines and does not act funny at all. Only much better than Jaguar (and I am speaking of an old iMac with 256MB RAM).

fabmedia
11-06-2003, 10:55 AM
Interesting conversation here... but there is one thing that I've noticed under Panther, faulty renders. Now I have to look into this one, but I've noticed that the renders are taking a little longer, but the scene starts processing quicker. I'm finding that transparency is an issue.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just nuts?

Arlen

Johnny
11-06-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by fabmedia
Interesting conversation here... but there is one thing that I've noticed under Panther, faulty renders. Now I have to look into this one, but I've noticed that the renders are taking a little longer, but the scene starts processing quicker. I'm finding that transparency is an issue.

fabmedia;

Have you tried the exact same scene on a Jaguar Mac, or do you just have one machine now loaded with Panther?

J

fabmedia
11-06-2003, 11:07 AM
I rendered exactly the same scene. I needed to do some quick animations for a potential job and figured that I would create some with the fastest rendered scenes (well not anymore). There are transparent glass spheres that have an 'air' layer on top and when I render it I get a whole bunch of nasty visible polygons without any smoothing. A single image should only take about 1 minute to render, and it was increased to about 11.

That's bad, but really it's not Newtek's fault. Yeah maybe they should issue a patch for Panther, it would be really nice, but it's our own doom for making a switch on a production machine without first testing it out. There are issues with Panther and there are issues with Lightwave before Jaguar.

The only thing that I have issues with Lightwave are:

1.) its stability. It has a tendancy to crash on me
2.) the time it takes thinking BEFORE it starts rendering
3.) the difference in time for rendering a scene over a PC.

Other than that, I'm a happy camper.

Arlen

Johnny
11-06-2003, 11:11 AM
fab;

sorry to hear about yours and others' mid-project Panther troubles... I'm learning the lesson from this.

At least I have the opportunity to play with Panther on my iBook, which is handling all the 2-D stuff, and Reason, just fine..happy to wait 'til things are fixed.

J

fabmedia
11-06-2003, 11:30 AM
Well I'm not in the middle of a project thank god! I am however looking at a dual boot system for my dual G4. So not all hope is lost. Not too sure what to do for the long run if an update to Panther doesn't fix the issues. Like I said before, I'm not too sure if it's in Newtek's hands to create a patch/fix for Panther. All I would say is that I hope that LW 8 is near bug free on it's release. I'm looking forward to it, but I'm not too sure if I'll jump right away.

Arlen

Red_Oddity
11-06-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by reyMoskito
( )

Red:
It´s when one starts offseting the reality just a little bit to make it a little bit more like one's opinion that these things usually happen: a) You loose your credit to the other valuable opinions you might have, b) Other people feel they have the right to offset reality too to get even, c) Some people get offended and start useless misunderstanding wars on threads like this. So please do not exaggerate things, it is better to learn from each other than to prove you [generic] are right or prove your [generic] bad boy attitude.


a) I have valuable opinions?...darn..i better get my act straight then:D

b) I'm not offsetting reality here my friend, it was done before me already...and if so, i wasn't trying to...

c) Yup, you should check out the 'A little Mac humor' thread in the Lightwave PC forum...damn....the thread remains funny however:D

Anyway, this wasn't meant towards you as i can clearly exclude you from the 'stupid f-ing bugger' crowd by installing a new OS on a test system (your old iMac), some people however are stupid enough to install on their main workstation...tsk tsk tsk...just because people screw up by installing a brand new OS (which every major point release of OSX really is) it's still not a viable reason to go pointing fingers at Newtek all of sudden...sure Newtek does need to fix this fast, but so does Apple, it's a two way relation....

NigelH
11-06-2003, 02:42 PM
Fabmedia,

I just installed Panther onto the secondary partition on my DP G4 and did a test render of a few frames of an animation I recently completed - complete with glass/air transparency polys, soft shadows and dithered motion blur. I didn't come across either a problem with transparency nor render time. I didn't do a head-to-head test against Jaguar, so there might be a few seconds difference one way or another, but it didn't 'feel' any slower (certainly not a ratio of 1:11). I also didn't render my glass objects with ray-traced refraction, which I know has a tendency to slow things down significantly. I don't know if that might have contributed to your problem.

I can't really speculate as to what is causing your render anomalies, but it may not be a purely LW/Panther issue, and as such, is probably fixable (a good thing :-).

fabmedia
11-06-2003, 02:48 PM
hmmm... like I said I have to look into it further. But while I we're on this topic of fixing, I have noticed with LW that when I go to start a render (10.1-10.2.5), the LW sits and thinks and thinks and thinks before it even starts to do any organizing of the objects in a scene. For instance if I have an object such as a 6K polygon tree, it'll take 30 seconds to move it (even more sometimes).

Does anyone experience this and is it possible that I can fix it?

Arlen

Red_Oddity
11-07-2003, 02:12 AM
Hmmm...try to do a Save Transformed Object (under a new name offcourse)...delete the one in the scene and add the Transformed one...might help...

Ade
11-07-2003, 07:15 AM
Panther seems to have reverted my LW prefs and wont save em? Not overly annoying but any work arounds or findings?

RUdiger
11-07-2003, 09:01 AM
It is said several times here, but no one seems to understand.
LW can't make a patch to LW7.5 to fix Apple's OpenGL bugs.
Chuck says that they won't work around bugs from OS. This is smart because it is a waste of time, and the bugs will be fixed from Apple before hacks to avoid them are released. Probably hack workarounds are more buggy or break with 10.3.1. Other openGL programs have problems with Panther too, read the apple opengl ml.
When apple changes mousing, maybe apps aren't ready, so users must be careful with upgrades. Lucky that tablet mode works, we don't imagine LW engineers testing old versions when they must be very busy on 8. They should keep working on that.

Expect no panther compatible LW75, expect a LW75 compatible Panther!

NigelH
11-07-2003, 09:15 AM
Which OGL problem in particular are you referring to? Are you saying that edits in the graph editor crashing LW is an OGL problem? Just curious. I wouldn't know.

RUdiger
11-07-2003, 09:39 AM
Scott says it is openGL bug.
Anyway think logical:

Things work

OS Changes

Things don't work

It MUST be the OS change that has bug!!!
Apple OpenGL is funny for years, and Panther/QuartzExtreme use more and more openGL for OS acceleration. Few other program use so much openGL like LW. Apple should be testing openGL with LW, not just Unreal!

dmg3d
11-07-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by RUdiger
Scott says it is openGL bug.

...
Few other program use so much openGL like LW. Apple should be testing openGL with LW, not just Unreal!

Not to get technical, but Scott said it was an openGL ISSUE. I think if it were an actual BUG in openGL, there would be a whole lot more applications not working right. My take (when I talked with the Apple Store guy) is that something changed in the routines to access openGL, and LW just needs to "roll with the changes" (easy, right Scott :rolleyes: )

With regards to gaming apps, I would think they use MORE openGL routines than LW.

I don't think clicking in the graph editor or doing a render is openGL... but moving/rotating an object in a window is.

Then again, I haven't had the enjoyment of coding in awhile :eek:

-Dave

Scott_NewTek
11-07-2003, 11:35 AM
It turns out it seems to be something in 'smoothing polylines' in an OpenGL call list in our Graph Editor. (And, as a matter of fact... the G.E. *is* done in OpenGL! :-) ) That smoothing is not so necessary... nor using saved call lists... so we now redraw it when needed - voila no more crashing.

This may be a driver change or an OpenGL change, or something else, etc. I do not have all combinations of NVidia, ATI, Other, video cards and all versions of said cards, with Panther on a G5 or otherwise, to test with. So... we carve out around the known and go on.

It's all good. It just takes time and patience.

-Scott

mlinde
11-07-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by dmg3d
With regards to gaming apps, I would think they use MORE openGL routines than LW.
Hey dave, games actually use a subset of OpenGL, especially first-person shooters. A few years ago this group of calls got the infamous nickname "The Carmack OpenGL subset" after ID wizard John Carmack. I couldn't tell you which commands they are though.

js33
11-07-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
It turns out it seems to be something in 'smoothing polylines' in an OpenGL call list in our Graph Editor. (And, as a matter of fact... the G.E. *is* done in OpenGL! :-) ) That smoothing is not so necessary... nor using saved call lists... so we now redraw it when needed - voila no more crashing.

This may be a driver change or an OpenGL change, or something else, etc. I do not have all combinations of NVidia, ATI, Other, video cards and all versions of said cards, with Panther on a G5 or otherwise, to test with. So... we carve out around the known and go on.

It's all good. It just takes time and patience.

-Scott

Hi Scott,

So you have a fix for the graph edit bug. That's great will there be a patch for 7.5? Also why does the Graph editor use OpenGL at all? Is it just for drawing the curves? Is it necessary to use OGL for that?

Cheers,
JS

policarpo
11-07-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by js33
Hi Scott,

So you have a fix for the graph edit bug. That's great will there be a patch for 7.5? Also why does the Graph editor use OpenGL at all? Is it just for drawing the curves? Is it necessary to use OGL for that?

Cheers,
JS

the entire UI of LW uses OpenGL to draw itself if i am not mistaken. :)

js33
11-07-2003, 04:44 PM
Maybe the entire UI is OpenGL based now but it wasn't always.

Cheers,
JS

Johnny
11-07-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
the entire UI of LW uses OpenGL to draw itself if i am not mistaken. :)

aren't there certain things which rely on OGL that can be turned off? (the panel that comes up with the d key?)

J

Ge4-ce
11-08-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Johnny
aren't there certain things which rely on OGL that can be turned off? (the panel that comes up with the d key?)

J

Yes, there are, but those are different things.. The options available with the 'd' key (display settings) are for Opengl options that affect Our way of view in a scene. We can descide here what we want to view in Realtime (lensflares, fog,..)

The Opengl problems we're talking about here are totally different. Here it is the "Opengl-engine" if I may call it like that, that is used to display the grapheditor. So you cannot turn it off.

Ade
11-08-2003, 01:43 AM
Anyone having troubles getting prefs to save, it stays default and i cannot make the views save to how i want it.
LW forgets its last settings..


Panther.

noiseboy
11-08-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Anyone having troubles getting prefs to save, it stays default and i cannot make the views save to how i want it.
LW forgets its last settings..


Panther.

No problems here, you might want to check your cmdline paths are set correctly.

Ade
11-08-2003, 01:53 AM
Cool it worked..Money cant buy this community i tell ya!

fabmedia
11-09-2003, 12:47 PM
Okay. I have some good news.

I put my systems with LW 7.5 and Panther to the test. I'm on a G4 dual 867 and have noticed that I have a slight improvement with overall performance and speed. The system tends to not "think" as much as it used to and the overall rendering has not decreased but possibly increased.

I've been watching the system performance with the usage of the overall applications that I use and find that the memory management is improved.

This is still preliminary, but it seems that there is not too much out of the ordinary with Panther and LW. At least from my persepective and the issues that seem to be resolved with the mouse.

Arlen

archiea
11-09-2003, 01:16 PM
hey gang....

Its been great that so many have contributed their experiences, and its even better to hear from chuck and scott...

My assumption would have been that you brave souls would have been installing 10.3 on non-critical machines.. However, from the amount of emotion being displayed, it seems that some people have installed panther on their primary machines....

Add to that the fact that panther adds no really extra funtionality to LW....

So why would ANYBODY install a MAJOR os upgrade on a machine thats in production?

the debate as to whether NT should have none earlier, or have had a patch ready is still valid, but I think their responses here have been honest and realistic.

I mean, even free point releases and maintainence releases should be looked at with caution, let alone a major update.

Should updates work, sure, it would be great. But any veteran would tell you to not change the software until at least a key portion of the production was done, and even then on a test system.

this should be a lesson to us all...

In the end, Panther seems to immediately benefit the non production mac user, with updates to finder, mail, etc... I'm sure thee is plenty under the hood, but nothing where someone working on a show w/ LW would care to upgrade. I can see someone hopping on installing LW 8 but not panther....

Admit it.. we all got caught in Job's reality distortion field... I found Panther underwhelming at first and then it slowly grew on me...

Kinda funny now... you hit F9 to do a test render and your LW windows scatter like roaches when you turn on the light.... at least in an apartment in NY....

fabmedia
11-09-2003, 02:00 PM
It is true. A good portion of people do error at times at making mistakes during production. But whether you are in the middle of something or not, eventually you are going to make a switch. Smaller production studios such as mine (being 1), do end up making the 'switch' at sometime or another. Sometimes it is good, and sometimes it is bad. What it really comes down to is how adaptable can you be to any problems that arise. Typically I trust Apple. I've never really had anything to be upset about with them. Yes Panther may not have met my expectations and caused a lot of headaches, but overall, the system is pretty stable, and allows for a easier production work around. For me that's what is better in the long run. The errors with some of the programs is a minor glitch that will be fixed in the next week or so. So I have no one else to blame but me if I can't get things done.

Of course I'm not in the middle of production right now, and I can spend the little extra time trying to find any kiind of work-around that I may need when the next big project walks through the door.

Arlen

Johnny
11-09-2003, 02:04 PM
Anyone here with a G5/Panther and Radeon card have troubles with such a Mac in a ScreamerNet scenario?

IOW, if there are troubles modeling, is such a machine at least good for ScreamerNetting?

J

eblu
11-10-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by js33
Hi Scott,

So you have a fix for the graph edit bug. That's great will there be a patch for 7.5? Also why does the Graph editor use OpenGL at all? Is it just for drawing the curves? Is it necessary to use OGL for that?

Cheers,
JS

js
actually OpenGL is not just a good 3d engine, it is also specifically targeted at 2d as well. so while it may not be necessary for openGL to be employed in the graph editor, it is:
1. darned convenient, and easier to implement than making your own 2-d crossplatform display engine.
2. another bit of code that is cross-platform through OpenGL, and thus chock full of known variables.
3. HardWare accelerated.
4. unified with the rest of the UI.

in short, OpenGL makes sense here.

Beamtracer
11-10-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by eblu
2. another bit of code that is cross-platform through OpenGL, and thus chock full of known variables. The code may be cross-platform, but the bugs aren't !

Ge4-ce
11-10-2003, 02:22 PM
AUWCH!!! ;)

mlinde
11-10-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
The code may be cross-platform, but the bugs aren't !
Especially when apple changes the way it calls the standard OpenGL routines with every OS patch.

On a side note, a clip from the news.com review of 10.3:

nor is ... Panther... the must-have upgrade that last year's Jaguar was. Many of Panther's changes to the Finder seem motivated more by fashion than by usability, and although Apple lists 150 new features in Panther, others have disappeared. Along with advances in compatibility with Windows networks come problems in their implementation and interface. Until Apple works out these quirks, we can't recommend this version of Panther to users of Macs on enterprise networks. And if you are a home user with Jaguar, we suggest holding on to it in anticipation of next year's Mac OS X update.

I saw a bit of the 10.3 intro at the local Apple store this weekend, and frankly there doesn't seem to be much that 10.3 offers that is mission critical. Although Exposé looks like it would be top of the useful updates list, I'd be concerned about issues with LW and Exposé -- this feature seems to have the greatest possibility of causing problems.

At this point, in my opinion (and I am allowed an opinion here), 10.3 is not on my list of vital software updates. In fact, it's not even on my wish list. It's just not necessary, and with the upgrade costing $110-$130 (depending on your source) it's just not worth it.

Scott_NewTek
11-10-2003, 02:59 PM
There are some nice features in Panther...

One is the ability to control the processor utilization via a system preference panel. I am not sure of the total effect, but I can tell the difference between 10.2.8 and 10.3 on a Dual CPU G5 Mac.

Here is a bit about the OpenGL issue(s):

OpenGl for Mac OS X v10.3 "Panther"

Panther's OpenGL implementation brings significant performance
optimizations, powerful development tools and support for the latest
display cards to Mac OS X. OpenGL applications running on Panther
benefit from optimizations in the vertex and texture paths, improved
asynchronous operation and better Graphics Processing Unit (GPU)
utilization.
http://developer.apple.com/opengl/panther.html


They do improve things at lower levels, and that is possibly where we are seeing this smoothing bug. Oh well... things change, for better or worse. We will do our best to work around the bugs!

-Scott

Ed M.
11-10-2003, 03:13 PM
By the way.... 10.3.1 has been released (this was for those that didn't know).

--
Ed

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:21 PM
Thanks Ed! I'm downloading and installing as I type. If I have any troubles I'll let you know.

Cheers!
Arlen

Scott_NewTek
11-10-2003, 03:23 PM
8 Minutes... you guys are slipping... I thought you'd be upgraded and testing within 4-5 tops... :-)

-Scott

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:25 PM
ha ha. Nice one...

Arlen

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:32 PM
Just figured I'd let you know I started a crashing streak while rendering.

hmmmm...

Scott, has there been a history of crashing during rendering with LW? I know I have quite a few issues with it doing so under 10.x and I've never been able to solve it. Any ideas?

Arlen

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:37 PM
Yup. A crashing streak. Same place everytime. LW starts using Virtual Memory like it's going out of style and rendering in chunky blocks.

Arlen

Scott_NewTek
11-10-2003, 03:39 PM
Not very much that I know of. There seems to be more GUI crash bugs. If you can post your scene I can take a look at it. Watch out for third party plugin issues... there might be something there, but for the most part they seem to be working well too.

-Scott

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:40 PM
The only plug-ins that I'm using and rarely are Sasquatch, polas.net's Tree Designer, Leaves Generator, and Eki's Overcaster.

Arlen

Scott_NewTek
11-10-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by fabmedia
Yup. A crashing streak. Same place everytime. LW starts using Virtual Memory like it's going out of style and rendering in chunky blocks.

Arlen

Big scenes definitely hit the VM hard. I have had a few 'hangs' but those were quite large scenes... Are you using a G5 or a G4? How much RAM? Have you ever rendered that scene (successfully) before? Which version of LW is it? 7.5c?

-Scott

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 03:46 PM
As far as I know it's just 7.5 off the disk. I haven't installed any of the updates off of the NT site.

My specs are Dual G4 867 with 1.12 Gb of RAM. And the scene has been successfully rendered before.

I find that LW is only using 400 Mb total. I really hate dealing with this stuff at times.

Thanks,
Arlen

Scott_NewTek
11-10-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by fabmedia
As far as I know it's just 7.5 off the disk. I haven't installed any of the updates off of the NT site.

My specs are Dual G4 867 with 1.12 Gb of RAM. And the scene has been successfully rendered before.

I find that LW is only using 400 Mb total. I really hate dealing with this stuff at times.

Thanks,
Arlen

Try my job! :-) I like to fix things though. 7.5c addresses some issues, but many people like 7.5 as is. As for Panther... well... you've seen the posts here...

I am not sure why it would go off and start hitting VM like that, if you seem to have the RAM available, unless something requested a VERY large block of RAM... which would cause the OS to save everything to disk, purge everything and allocate as much VM as needed. LW itself does not control those things directly, however. And I have not seen any Panther-related memory allocation issues yet.

I can't speak for the third party plugins, maybe there is something going on there. Hard to say without being able to debug the actual scene.

fabmedia
11-10-2003, 04:03 PM
Send me an email with your email address and I'll send you a link for the files. [email protected]ia.com

Arlen

riki
11-10-2003, 10:07 PM
Looks like 10.3.1 is out

re: http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/8848

riki
11-10-2003, 10:10 PM
What's new in this version:
The 10.3.1 Update delivers enhanced functionality and improved reliability for the following applications, services and technologies: FileVault, Printing, WebDav, and FireWire 800 drives. This update also includes the latest Security Updates. Important Note: Apple has identified an issue with external FireWire hard drives using the Oxford 922 bridge chip-set with firmware version 1.02 that can result in the loss of data stored on the disk drive. Even with the improvements available in this update, Apple recommends you update the firmware on your FireWire drive. Please contact your drive manufacturer for more information.

js33
11-11-2003, 02:09 AM
Well 10.3.1 didn't help the graph editor crash so I guess we have to wait for 8 for a fix of that.

Cheers,
JS

riki
11-11-2003, 03:36 AM
ha! But got you juiced up for a sec :D

Ge4-ce
11-11-2003, 04:44 AM
Hey, I noticed you talking about the Polas.net plugins (treegenerator, leaves,..)

I never heard of these before and went for their site! I was totally amazed!

Only.. How about rendertimes??? :D

They have quite some beautiful artwork there, but these are no image-effects like sasquatch! there are all real polymodels! (wich is great) .. Even the grass plug-in generates all the grass in polys!

Isn't this a real real real big hit on rendering performance? I'm planning to purchase the plugin's.. Can you (or someone else who has used them) help me out on this one?

Thanx.. Ge4-ce

js33
11-11-2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by riki
ha! But got you juiced up for a sec :D

:D I thought it couldn't hurt to try it and see if it made a difference but in the back of my mind I was saying..."Newtek probably has to fix it though."

Cheers,
JS

fabmedia
11-11-2003, 10:04 AM
Ge4-ce,

Yeah the plug-ins are great. They do create actual polygon objects and it's really fast. You just have to remember that Tree Designer and Leaves Generator are two different plug-ins that you need to generate your tree/bush/vine. I bought these over Dynamic-Realities plug-in (which I hummed and hawed over for a very long time I might add) because the leaves and the tree itself are UV mapped and it makes your progress so much quicker and easier. You generate a decent tree, texture it, and render all in about 5 minutes if you have your textures ready to go.

It's really good and I recommend it. These are plug-ins that Dosche Design uses for their Trees CD-ROM that they sell.

Arlen

designvs
11-12-2003, 08:03 AM
In all the previous posts, some people are saying that you will have a update to 7.5 that fixes the graph editor problem while others say there won't be a fix to 7.5 and the only solution will be to either upgrade to LW 8 or downgrade to OS 10.2.* .
Can you please tell us for sure which it will be? Thanks

policarpo
11-12-2003, 08:10 AM
for right now until a patch is released to fix the 10.3 bugs introduced, use LW 7.5 and 7.5c under 10.2.8.

And if you have an ATI card, be sure to install the hotfix after upgrading to 10.2.8

Hope that helps.

Chazz
11-12-2003, 08:39 AM
Yes, but some of us just got new Macs with 10.3 pre-installed. I'm aware that Newtek doesn't have to issue a patch for 7.5...but some of us would be really grateful if they did. :D

designvs
11-12-2003, 08:42 AM
As I said in my previous post, I would like a direct answer from NEWTEK only. I want a simple YES or NO if there will be an update to 7.5.

BTW, I checked out your site policarpo and I liked what I saw. I really dig your watercolor effect. You have some nice work on your site. Also I discovered some really cool sites thru your links. Thanks

policarpo
11-12-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by mfessenden
Yes, but some of us just got new Macs with 10.3 pre-installed. :D

doh!

some of us should be so lucky. ;)

Just do everything as straight linear animation until they release a patch. :D

and designVS, thanks for taking the time to visit my site.

keep up the good work everyone.

Chazz
11-12-2003, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I second that...your site rocks!

Doing facial expressions through the Morphmixer dialog is killing me...I want my graph editor back!! :D

fabmedia
11-12-2003, 10:34 AM
10.3.1 doesn't fix the graph editor issue. Just to let you know. I'm trying to freeze some particles in mid motion so I can fly around them, but no success.

Kind of off topic but is there a way to clone a heirarchy of which there is a NULL and a Camera then render out all of the cameras in one movie?

Arlen

Scott_NewTek
11-12-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by designvs
As I said in my previous post, I would like a direct answer from NEWTEK only. I want a simple YES or NO if there will be an update to 7.5.


DIRECT COMMENT

MAYBE :-)

It is not so simple is all we can tell you at this point. Sorry. If we could say, we would have by now. I can tell you that we have fixes/workarounds for the bugs, of course. But WHEN is a question that is not easy to define. Believe me, as soon as possible is the goal.

END OF COMMENT



BTW, I checked out your site policarpo and I liked what I saw. I really dig your watercolor effect. You have some nice work on your site. Also I discovered some really cool sites thru your links. Thanks

Policarpo's stuff rocks!

nawDsign
11-12-2003, 02:28 PM
Where can I find the fixes and workaround for the graph editor bug?

thanks,
nor

designvs
11-12-2003, 02:43 PM
Well, Scott, I appreciate the fact that you came right out and said it......even though it wasn't necessarily the answer I was hoping for. At least however, your honest about it.

Scott_NewTek
11-12-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by nawDsign
Where can I find the fixes and workaround for the graph editor bug?

thanks,
nor

Unfortunately, there is no fix available for the Graph Editor bug at this time. :-( But, as above, we know, we know, we know... and we are working on getting a fix out... sorry.

-Scott

fabmedia
11-12-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
Unfortunately, there is no fix available for the Graph Editor bug at this time. :-( But, as above, we know, we know, we know... and we are working on getting a fix out... sorry.

-Scott

Will it be an update for 7.5 or just released for 8?

Arlen

mlinde
11-12-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by fabmedia
Will it be an update for 7.5 or just released for 8?

Arlen
Arlen, to help Scott out for a moment, here's his quote:

Scott_NewTek
DIRECT COMMENT

MAYBE :-)

fabmedia
11-12-2003, 03:56 PM
Right. Sorry. I did overlook that.

My appologies. I do however wouldn't blame NT for not updating 7.5. Just my opinion so don't hate me for it. Although it would be nice...

Arlen

Scott Gammans
11-12-2003, 06:00 PM
I would be annoyed if the Panther fixes were only available with LW 8.0. This may not be the politic thing to say, but frankly I wasn't planning on upgrading to the next version of LightWave until the 8.x release... I don't have the $$$ and honestly I wonder what non-Panther bugs will be introduced with 8.0 (not to mention the new-and-improved features that may change the workflow that--as a shiny newbie--I'm still trying to get a handle on).

Since NewTek still hasn't come up with a upgrade offer to match the one that the PC crowd got, I think the least they could do is release a patch for 7.5C that fixes the Panther issues. My $0.02.

PaladinWolf
11-12-2003, 06:27 PM
Hey gang, I too am totally jacked up because of Panther. I am on a G4 933 Mhz with 736 MB of RAM, using LW 7.5c. I can only load one item into a scene and when i try to load another, forget it. It's over. So, now I have to become the king of compositing and build my projects, one piece at a time, in After Effects. PLUS do NOT right-click in Panther unless you want to wait for years until the menu appears in any application. [email protected]#t!

fabmedia
11-12-2003, 08:29 PM
PW... it sounds to me that you might have to reinstall LW and clear your preferences. You shouldn't be having those kind of problems.

I'm not sure what to offer, but backup your current LW folder and all of your preferences and try the reinstall. It might work for you.

Cheers!
Arlen