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Richardas
05-24-2012, 02:12 AM
Intresting. Is anybody got photoreal hair render with LW? Just saw "peregrine labs YETI" hair plugin and its freaking sick! But no LW support. :mad:

erikals
05-24-2012, 04:52 AM
for long hair no, for short hair instancing can be used so yes...

but long hair, photoreal, no, haven't seen anything close to that i'm afraid.
still, haven't seen that many other apps that do it either...

Yeti, the one you refer to, is quite new, http://peregrinelabs.com/yeti
so it's not like something that other packages have had for ages...

also the price isn't all that low, CA $1200... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

 

Richardas
05-24-2012, 05:22 AM
Thanks for reply.
Suggestion for LW community to start FiberFX photoreal long hair challenge.
Then we would see how far FFX could be pushed. :)

Titus
05-24-2012, 07:05 AM
Thanks for reply.
Suggestion for LW community to start FiberFX photoreal long hair challenge.
Then we would see how far FFX could be pushed. :)

For our own sanity, please don't :D.

Danner
05-24-2012, 07:14 AM
I still find sastcuatch to be better than FiberFX.

FFX is just too unstable.

Richardas
05-24-2012, 07:58 AM
Sasquatch is great, but i have no idea how get clean antialiasing on hair -fur object sides - where hair becomes lossy and that areas renders crapy noise :mad:

Would by nice if we could use new LW antialiasing on sasquatch without classic camera. :)

littlewaves
05-24-2012, 08:48 AM
Richardas: are there some particular renders done with Yeti that have impressed you?

While the renders on the website are certainly above anything I've seen FFX or Sas produce I'm really not sure they're quite "there" yet.

The hairline (where the hair comes out of the flesh) still looks pretty clunky to me.

erikals
05-24-2012, 08:55 AM
the hairline is an easy fix though, just add a second generator, no problemo.
(same goes for FFX etc...)

Richardas
05-24-2012, 10:26 AM
Here is another intresting thing "Dr. Arno Zinke's Hair rendering application".
http://vimeo.com/23474699 (Mild nudity)


Littlewaves: i saw just on their website, but that renders realy nice.

Also i had read somewhere, that human hair has 1,55 IOR.

Is there anny way to use refraction in FFX shading?

Greenlaw
05-24-2012, 12:42 PM
I've been using at least two layers of FiberFX for people hair, one surface based layer for short 'base-hair' and guides for longer bits and dynamics. For the surface based fibers I use a map to control scale and density--for example, shorter sideburns and longer on top. Bias Map would come in handy here but this feature doesn't seem to work correctly in 11.0, so I've had to cheat direction by using a weight map and gradient to have two different gravity settings. Well, sort of. It's not perfect but it works for my current situation. Basically I have less gravity in top front and more everywhere else. The Bias Map should give you more specific diectionsl control so hopefully this gets fixed in the future.

For hairline, I've been using a fairly high Cluster Radius (90mm to 100mm) which randomizes the fiber placement and prevents the 'doll hair' rows that happen with the default settings. This is way faster than using Relax. If you're concerned about fibers going 'out of bounds', the masks should clip them.

Sorry, can't show any examples from work. When I have time, I'll try to do some personal examples that I can show.

Tip: in 11.0 and 11.0.1 you'll want to disable On for surface fibers when animating or scrubbing to prevent slow-down. (In 10.1 you only needed to disable Draw.) Just remember to re-enable it before rendering. Don't worry, disabling On won't lose your settings--you have to Deactivate to erase current settings.

Hope this helps.

G.

erikals
05-24-2012, 02:40 PM
Here is another interesting thing "Dr. Arno Zinke's Hair rendering application".
http://vimeo.com/23474699
nice, but just a beta atm afaik, price is uncertain, and compatibility too.


Also i had read somewhere, that human hair has 1,55 IOR.
Is there any way to use refraction in FFX shading?
nope, don't think that is all that usual though...
faking the look is more plausible, witch is probably what Zinke / Yeti do...

 

silviotoledo
05-24-2012, 08:59 PM
FFX does a photoreal hair rendering

what it does not have is a photorreal way to model guides :)!
But now you have Zbrush and Goz for that!

and of course, FFX need better collisions.

I hope this will be solved when bullet will drive softbodies soon.

Greenlaw
05-24-2012, 10:39 PM
..what it does not have is a photorreal way to model guides :)!
I assume you actually mean it lacks an 'intuitive' way to model the guides, because I can certainly model guides in Lightwave and get photoreal results. I primarily use Modeler's Strand Modeler and Strand Tools, which are very capable but they aren't as naturally intuitive like a brush tool. Layout, of course has a Brush tool and it works fairly well at that; unfortunately it hasn't been as reliable as using guide chains modeled in Modeler or other applications. I kinda wish the Brush tool existed in Modeler in addition to the tools already in there.

BTW, I've also used Modo's tools to make FiberFX guide chains. It's pretty neat but it has its own shortcomings. I like it for certain hairstyles but I mostly rely on Modeler's FiberFX tools.

I really do need to look into ZBrush and GoZ as another option for FiberFX guides. I have a license of ZBrush but just haven't had time for it lately. That'll probably happen after we finish this job I'm on where I could really use it. :p

G.

Richardas
05-24-2012, 10:56 PM
This community is top user friendly in all cg world! :thumbsup: Is there solution to get smooth FFX guides? Converting splines with Strand Maker results sharp points. :mad:

And i can't add more than one fiberfilter on the same object, while Sasquatch has no problem with that in deform tab. One more thing - some Sasquatch antialiasing problems can be solved by slightly increasing fiber width and decreasing fiber tip narrowing.

I think, that fiber tip narrowing for long hair should allways be 0%, except that character never visited hairdressing saloon :)

erikals
05-25-2012, 02:14 AM
FFX does a photoreal hair rendering...

hmm.... does it? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/question.gif
haven't seen any renders that confirms this... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/aiwebs_029.gif

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/gotpics.gif
 

erikals
05-25-2012, 03:03 AM
so, had to check,
best FFX examples i've seen 'till now...

Bear and Bull - (interesting bull shading) http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69899&d=1234889253
Buddy - http://www.turrican.gamevoice.de/wip/bud02.jpg
Getting to know FiberFX - (interesting shading) http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68638&d=1232829511
'Mad Colonel' - http://muharraqi-studios.com/gallery/muharraqi_image103.jpg
young Hero - http://www.turrican.gamevoice.de/wip/boy_v06.jpg


so, maybe... bit hard to tell as they are still images... would they look good animated 360... ?
interesting question...

 

Richardas
05-25-2012, 04:38 AM
Scene with bull shows that most important is right amount of specularity and glossiness. I missing lossy hair glow in backlight. Does FFX support it? Sasquatch does.


That bull has human eyes! HaHaHa! :D

jimmahbee
03-20-2013, 08:56 PM
I assume you actually mean it lacks an 'intuitive' way to model the guides, because I can certainly model guides in Lightwave and get photoreal results. I primarily use Modeler's Strand Modeler and Strand Tools, which are very capable but they aren't as naturally intuitive like a brush tool. Layout, of course has a Brush tool and it works fairly well at that; unfortunately it hasn't been as reliable as using guide chains modeled in Modeler or other applications. I kinda wish the Brush tool existed in Modeler in addition to the tools already in there.

BTW, I've also used Modo's tools to make FiberFX guide chains. It's pretty neat but it has its own shortcomings. I like it for certain hairstyles but I mostly rely on Modeler's FiberFX tools.

I really do need to look into ZBrush and GoZ as another option for FiberFX guides. I have a license of ZBrush but just haven't had time for it lately. That'll probably happen after we finish this job I'm on where I could really use it. :p

G.

I have LW 9.3...and I can't seem to find Strand Modeller or even Fiber FX...when was it introduced?

hrgiger
03-20-2013, 09:21 PM
but long hair, photoreal, no, haven't seen anything close to that i'm afraid.
still, haven't seen that many other apps that do it either...

 

Hair farm for 3DS Max does pretty nice human hair. http://www.hair-farm.com/gallery.php

netstile123
03-21-2013, 03:48 PM
Hay, does messiah do hair? I no I have a pro version but I have never used it?

lardbros
03-21-2013, 04:54 PM
I'm agreeing, not seen any photoreal FFX hair. The bull and bear are the best I've ever seen... but can understand from the unintuitiveness of FFX that that is the reason there aren't more examples.

Celshader
03-21-2013, 05:08 PM
Intresting. Is anybody got photoreal hair render with LW?

In The Amazing Spider-Man (2012), there's a shot of a lizard-rat eating another rat in a laboratory. The remains of the other rat uses FiberFX.

lardbros
03-21-2013, 06:14 PM
Well... JUST tried another stint in FFX in modeller, and it's crashed 3 times doing simple tasks, and already has me pretty much pulling my hair out as it's so unusable and frustrating!


Create a guide... can't rotate model once the add guide is clicked, UNTIL you click a polygon to add it... now edit the guide, add some nodes, pull it around a bit, scale it up a bit... now add another guide! BOOM, the new one is scaled MASSIVE. It doesn't take into account the initial guide you've just spent minutes trying to ease into a nice position.

Has anyone here who has tried FFX actually used the one in 3dsMax? It makes complete sense, and I don't end up pulling my own hair out trying to make it work. I'd rather rip my own hair out and glue it to my screen than try to get FFX to do what I want.

Dexter2999
03-21-2013, 07:51 PM
I draw a parallel between FFX and a Diabolo
112840

Just because I can't make it work, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

TalleyJC
03-21-2013, 08:34 PM
112842 Not outstanding but this is the first thing I tried. Im sure if I spent any real time on it I could get pretty close

Richardas
03-22-2013, 03:58 AM
Pretty nice hair :) Put some love on specular and glossiness. And now my thoughts about realistic hair model. Hair should be a cylinder shape (LW i think renders flat plane). Have some refraction, color absorption and macro displacement, or noise filter in shading due the hair structure. Hair fiber at the end should be narrow, if they never been cut. And now hit F9 and render will be finished at Christmas :D

Here some hair reference:

http://www.bendobson.co.uk/snaps/d200/supermacro/hair.jpg

http://lwrlvl.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/hair-electron-microscope.jpeg

http://www.dino-lite.com/img/microscopy/Medical/Dermatology/Microscope-Hair-6.jpg

Thanks to LW that now we can use multiple hair layers on same object. I found that hair guides editing is comfortable in 3Dsmax Ornatrix plugin. Then export guides as splines via .ase to modeler and convert to LW hair guides.

Here some dude did great job with Ornatrix hair modeling:

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=947&d=1303081603

That hair contain about 24 layers :bowdown:


I tried ad refraction to hair in 3Dsmax, but the problem is flat rendering :( Then i converted hair to splines, gave some thickness to get cylinder shape, added shader with refraction, hit F9 and ... ... out of RAM :D

MDSPECIFIC
03-22-2013, 04:36 AM
Just wanted to put this here.

Jack Sparrow (http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g35/279935/279935_1311655475_large.jpg)
Jack Sparrow brief (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=996652&page=1&pp=15)

Richardas
03-22-2013, 04:52 AM
Oh yeah. A magnificent peace of art and Sasquatch power. One thing bugs me is low hair segment count on lossy hair shown on background. If Sas had visual hair presentation in 3d workspace and better antialiasing and shadows capabilities it would be the best and FASTEST hair plugin in CG world. Does Sasquatch work in LW 11.5 ?

Phil
03-22-2013, 06:15 AM
I have LW 9.3...and I can't seem to find Strand Modeller or even Fiber FX...when was it introduced?

If you have 9.3, you can install up through 9.6.1 without trouble. Then you'll find FiberFX and be able to benefit from the improvements made to the whole software package.

Celshader
03-22-2013, 11:09 AM
Well... JUST tried another stint in FFX in modeller, and it's crashed 3 times doing simple tasks, and already has me pretty much pulling my hair out as it's so unusable and frustrating!

I've used FiberFX successfully for two years in film/broadcast production. FFX is usable, but sometimes frustrating.

Greenlaw
03-22-2013, 04:49 PM
Here's a little test I did a few weeks ago with FiberFX:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY

After we posted the test shown above, we've been using using FiberFX for nearly every shot in our second 'Brudders' film and so far it's working out great. If it's of any interest, I posted more information in this thread:

Brudders 2 Production Log (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-(Well-sort-of-))

The thread is not meant to be a FiberFX-only thread but so far that's pretty much what it's been. You might find some helpful tips in my notes there.

G.

Greenlaw
03-22-2013, 04:54 PM
And here's something the Box at Rhythm & Hues made last fall. I don't know if I'd call this 'outstanding' use of FiberFX because it was my first effort using FiberFX on an actual production but I used it for nearly all the characters in this theatrical cinematic (it played in many theaters in front of the Resident Evil movie.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODz7j8sB7I

Sadly, this was also the very last job we did in the Box. Oh, well...at least we went out with a bang. ;)

G.

Greenlaw
03-22-2013, 05:17 PM
I have LW 9.3...and I can't seem to find Strand Modeller or even Fiber FX...when was it introduced?
It was included in 9.5 but, IMO, FiberFX didn't become usable for production work until version 10.1 and, then, not really usable until version 11.0 sp2/3 (the version we used for DmC.)

The latest FiberFX in 11.5 is the most usable release yet and I highly recommend it over any previous releases.

If you're still using 9.5, you're probably better off using Sasquatch. Edit: But you can certainly use FiberFX Strand Modeler with Sasquatch just fine--I used Strand Modeler for Sasquatch on many jobs. That might be worth updating your Lightwave to at least 9.5 for--though, if you're sticking with 9.6, I would recommend going all the way up to 9.6.1. There are many other benefits to using 9.6.1 over 9.5.

G.

geo_n
03-22-2013, 09:33 PM
Just wanted to put this here.

Jack Sparrow (http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g35/279935/279935_1311655475_large.jpg)
Jack Sparrow brief (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=996652&page=1&pp=15)

That's amazing sas work.
http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g35/279935/279935_1311655475_large.jpg

lardbros
03-24-2013, 01:10 PM
And here's something the Box at Rhythm & Hues made last fall. I don't know if I'd call this 'outstanding' use of FiberFX because it was my first effort using FiberFX on an actual production but I used it for nearly all the characters in this theatrical cinematic (it played in many theaters in front of the Resident Evil movie.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODz7j8sB7I

Sadly, this was also the very last job we did in the Box. Oh, well...at least we went out with a bang. ;)

G.

Ha... very modest indeed. I would call that outstanding FFX work... and so far in these forums you are probably the main person who has figured out a mighty fine workflow for these things. I know it's a big ask, but to see an example workflow of how you generate a 'wig' using FFX would be soooo valuable. I struggle trying to think of the best way to generate a whole head of hair. I feel like it would be quicker for me to make it using curves and then converting them to FFX rather than use the strand tool within modeller.

Greenlaw
03-25-2013, 02:07 AM
Thanks for the nice words. Making hair for that job was hard and stressful work but luckily I was able to tap the advice of artists and programmers from these forums and elsewhere. (Thanks guys--you know who you are!) ;)


I know it's a big ask, but to see an example workflow of how you generate a 'wig' using FFX would be soooo valuable.

If there's enough interest, I'm thinking about developing courses for specific workflows after we finish 'Brudders 2'. For now I've been posting a bunch of FiberFX related stuff at that 'Brudders 2 Production log' forum mentioned earlier. When I can make the time, I'll post more information there for using FiberFX Edit Guides, ZBrush FiberMesh, and other guide tools for animated FiberFX.


I struggle trying to think of the best way to generate a whole head of hair. I feel like it would be quicker for me to make it using curves and then converting them to FFX rather than use the strand tool within modeller.

Funny you should say that--most of what you see in DmC was created in Modeler using Curves with Rail Cloning. In general, each character had at least two layers of FiberFX: a surface based layer for short 'base' hair and a guides based layer for long animated hair. Some characters had multiple layers of externally modeled guides--the 'fat man', for example, required about five layers of modeled guides objects. The twins each had four different guides objects, plus unique color textures applied so you could tell them apart (not that you could anyway because the characters are too far away and the heavy processing.)

Besides Rail Cloning, I used FiberFX Strand Modeler to create some hair elements (Dante's 'spiky bits' comes to mind.) I also used several general purpose Modeler tools, the hair brushes in Modo (which work with Lightwave curves btw,) and in one case, I used FiberFX Edit Guides guides that were converted to 2-point polygon chains using the Polygonize command. What didn't work at the time (this was in LW 11 sp 2/3) were VMaps and the general use of Edit Guides. I would like to have used ZBrush FiberMesh at the time but I didn't have that skill at the time.

BTW, the VMaps and Edit Guides features are mostly fixed in LightWave 11.5 and are certainly usable. I'm not using these features in 'Brudders 2' but I put them through extensive testing a few months ago and got nice results for the two cats and that animated carpet test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkuyIYHXuA). Back then, I decided to switch to ZBrush FiberMesh for reasons too complicated to go into here and those reasons may possibly be non-issues by now. The turntables for the FiberFX Edit Guides version of the cats have never been shown publicly but I'll post comparisons with notes later.

In general, while I like the more random naturalness of the ZBrush FiberMesh guides, the FiberFX Edit Guides version of the cats was a whole lot easier to create and it looked pretty good too. If I didn't already have the FiberMesh/FiberFX versions working in our short film, I would definitely be using FiberFX Edit Guides/FiberFX for the cats.

For Sister's hair, IMO, ZBrush FiberMesh is still the way to go though. I could probably create it using Edit Guides but it wouldn't be as easy as the cat fur with Edit Guides.

I guess it comes down to knowing which tool to use in a given situation.

G.

OnlineRender
03-25-2013, 02:59 AM
nice work greenlaw , I think wes ball had some stunning stuff using ffx ...SEARCHING

lardbros
03-25-2013, 07:00 AM
I do appreciate your in-depth explanations Greenlaw.

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who's having issues with the FFX tool in modeller. I thought the whole point of it was to remove the necessity of using curves and rail-clone. Whereas it makes it a strange and crashy world where nothing quite works properly, and the sliders all hinder the creation of a nice hairdo.

Adding guides is probably one of the least friendly workflows, it's all rather painful to be honest. It seems that you use a huge variety of tools in order to get a nice hair do, but unfortunately I don't have zbrush, or Modo to make my LW hair. I'd simply love a FFX guide tool in Modeller that just worked the way 3dsmax's hair tools work.

Object collision in FFX in modeller is completely useless, I've not got it to clip using an object perfectly either... and the different bundle options for the guides is confusing and over-complicated... and none of them seem easily controllable. I seem to randomly click and shift click to make sure I have a selected guide properly... basically, if Newtek are going to keep this in there, Matt really needs to be let loose on it. It's potentially really promising, but executed particularly poorly.

Apologies for moaning in this thread, you're always so upbeat about LW and its tools... but I do seem to lose all hope when I play with FFX again after leaving it for a while. For me it's pretty unusable and unstable still. :(

Greenlaw
03-25-2013, 12:38 PM
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who's having issues with the FFX tool in modeller. I thought the whole point of it was to remove the necessity of using curves and rail-clone. Whereas it makes it a strange and crashy world where nothing quite works properly, and the sliders all hinder the creation of a nice hairdo.

I've been using FiberFX Strand Modeler for several years, mostly for short haircuts. The tool actually works quite well for this but, yes, the interface is a bit strange and it's not explained very well in the docs.


Adding guides is probably one of the least friendly workflows, it's all rather painful to be honest. It seems that you use a huge variety of tools in order to get a nice hair do, but unfortunately I don't have zbrush, or Modo to make my LW hair. I'd simply love a FFX guide tool in Modeller that just worked the way 3dsmax's hair tools work.

It's not too bad--just press 'g' and click where you want the guide. The tricky bit is knowing where to most effectively place that guide and which falloff mode to put it in--this skill eventually comes with practice. Some tips: go the Options panel and disable Knots Only and Ends Only, and enable Splines. This gives you something comprehensible to look at. When editing the guides, I probably work with IK disabled as much as enabled--with it disabled, you have more control over length and specific shape editing; when IK is enabled, it's easier to make more general shape changes. To change the falloff mode, just click on the spline's root point--with each click it will change color to indicate the mode it's in. To adjust the falloff range, grab the dot on the radius and drag.

Also, before Exiting StrandModeler, make sure you save your settings to a StrandModeler file. If you need to go back to to more more edits to your style, you can reload the control Guides from the layer where FiberFX created them but you will also need to reload the settings you were last using from the file. For FiberFX, you will want to copy and paste the layer that contains the main fiber guides, not the control guides used by StrandModeler.

Hope this helps.


Object collision in FFX in modeller is completely useless, I've not got it to clip using an object perfectly either...
Yes, I don't think these ever worked correctly for me too.

...and the different bundle options for the guides is confusing and over-complicated...
Yes, this is what I meant by the above. It is overly complicated but it's possible to work quickly with it once you get a few tricks down. I'll try to explain what these 'tricks' are later.

That said, I agree--this tool feels dated and needs an overhaul. I'm not sure we'll see it anytime soon--I get the feeling that the new Edit Guides system is meant to replace it. I still find StrandModeler more useful for certain tasks though.


Apologies for moaning in this thread, you're always so upbeat about LW and its tools... but I do seem to lose all hope when I play with FFX again after leaving it for a while. For me it's pretty unusable and unstable still. :(
I understand--most LightWave hair/fur tutorials I've seen typically show how to use the tools with balls and planes or how to grow a simple 'mohawk' on a generic character--not terrifically helpful in a production with fully animated characters. (The exceptions being the excellent user submitted Sasquatch tutorials at Worley Labs, which have some relevance for FiberFX too.) The lack of production level hair/fur tutorials frustrated me too but as you might guess, I can be a bit stubborn about making tools do what I what I need them to do. (Sometimes that's a good thing.) :p

Anyway, keep nagging me from time to time and when things slow down a bit, I'll put together a few practical tutorials for using the tools in production. I meant to do this after DmC was finished so that the next time the Box needed FiberFX hair/fur artists, we might have had a chance of finding some help for me, but it was forever before we got clearance to say we even worked on it.

Shoot...I just remembered that I had written many pages for the Box Wiki on creating hair and fur for LightWave. This info was mostly Sasquatch related but much of it might have been relevant for FiberFX too. I guess that's all gone now. Oh, well--at least I kept all my DmC notes.

G.

Dodgy
03-26-2013, 01:06 AM
I thought I'd post my hair render here and hopefully others can post theirs so we can improve each other's experiences with FFX. I really like the shading and I think it can be useful, so I'm hoping I can get constructive dialogues going on how to best use it. 113027