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DiM
05-08-2012, 07:46 AM
Hi all,
I don't know if I'm in good section, but I try ;)
I need to do something but I don't know if is it possible with LW and triCaster maybe ? :vticon: :lwicon:
so I explain :
we have a project with a live puppet character in front of blue screen (green)
we need to integrate 2 things :
- a decors
- a 3d live character, and to animate it into LW with for example virtual studio

someone can say if it's possible ? (Rob or others)

thank a lot

silviotoledo
05-08-2012, 08:01 AM
In realtime?

No. Lightwave will not render realtime, you will need a game engine ( Cry Engine, UDK... ) or other and the output as a vídeo to Tricaster.

http://youtu.be/VJEL9Kipuw4

For motion capture you can use ipisoft ( www.ipisoft.com )

DiM
05-08-2012, 08:10 AM
I don't need realtime rendering but just animate in realtime and save it and after correcting animation and put texture and make render on 3D character and decors
the thing is to see elements in realtime when we animate the puppet ;)

DiM
05-14-2012, 05:54 AM
so nobody can help me ?

Cryonic
05-14-2012, 09:57 AM
You should be able to see the the textures on the model while you animate if you set one of the windows to be VPR from the dropdown next to the type (perspective, camera, light, etc...).

DiM
05-17-2012, 11:59 AM
hum, yes but we don't need real time render :)

RebelHill
05-17-2012, 12:07 PM
No.

LW has no realtime character system.

End Of.

Now, if you're just gonna be saving the result anyway, texturing and rendering it off later, why exactly do you need realtime animation?

DiM
05-17-2012, 12:10 PM
for see in live the interaction with live puppet :)

RebelHill
05-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Yeah ok... so you want to be able to animate the performace of one alongside the performance of the other.

Not possible with LW, and to get the tools and hardware that will let you do it, gonna cost you (minimum) 10,000 euros.

DiM
05-17-2012, 11:22 PM
^^ 10 000 euros if it's a good system why not, but I think with virtual studio it's possible to do this, just need to have a video return into LW (not available yet) or the possibility to have a camera view in a second monitor, for return in for example tricaster.

I try too the kinect motion capture, maybe with dstorm plugin but I don't know if we can buy it now :/
I want to try move.me with playstation move but only available in US :/

RebelHill
05-18-2012, 03:14 AM
Its not possible with virtual studio... it just plain isnt.

The Dstorm plugin could be an option... were it available. The closest thing atm is the brekel plugin for motionbuilder (plugins free but MBs like 5k). However, nice and fun as that setup is... its also kinda flaky at times... not what Id call production worthy... so who knows what the Dstorm one for LW would do better/different.

Also ofc, there's the fact that with just one kinect, you're pretty restricted in the kinds of movements, and space where you can perform your actions.

Once you get past that whole kinect and the like... the next step up is really to something like an Xsens system with MB, and the Xsens MB plugin tools... realtime, super accurate, few (if any) limitations... getting close to 100 grand though.

silviotoledo
05-18-2012, 05:19 PM
Motion builder and ipisoft allow you to see mocap transfer data in realtime through a simplified mesh character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVDf1cretpw

If you have a second video entrance from camera. I think you can use TRICASTER to fusion both images and see both in one screen for reference only.

TRICASTER is an compact TV studio from Newtek wich costs some money. There will be probably a less cost solution like the video assist people uses for stop-motion animation that superposes reallife and puppets.

Similar to what James Cameron did in AVATAR, right?

DiM
05-19-2012, 03:44 AM
Right Silviotoledo, and thx for your reply :p
what is the best ? Motion builder or Ipisoft ?
For the Tricaster I don't know the version of Tricaster is better for me, there are a lot of version :/

RebelHill thx too for your information :)

RebelHill
05-19-2012, 03:51 AM
Motion builder and ipisoft allow you to see mocap transfer data in realtime through a simplified mesh character.

Umm... no Silvio... no it doesnt.

iPi is most definitely NOT realtime... and again... for MB, you can have realtime input, but apart from brekel (which isnt very good) the extra kit to do that is 10s of thousands.

DiM
05-19-2012, 05:28 AM
so the best is ? :) it's difficult to know

RebelHill
05-19-2012, 06:02 AM
i already said... this... http://www.xsens.com/en/general/mvn

Start at 50k+ for the (basic) kit, plus software on top.

I think Silvio's confused... yes iPi and MB give realtime PLAYBACK... but realtime INPUT is something entirely different. As I said... there's only huge gaps in price. 5k for MB, add a kinect and brekel and uve got a (pretty ropey and not production worthy) realtime input device. Next step up is the Xsens. After that 100s of thousands to millions.

Thats it.

DiM
05-19-2012, 06:47 AM
Thx RebelHill I will see Xsens MVN :)
it's look good ;)

silviotoledo
05-19-2012, 06:21 PM
I've not used any of these systems yet. Just looked at some. Plan to use it but not for realtime work soon.


Umm... no Silvio... no it doesnt.
iPi is most definitely NOT realtime...

So is this pre recorded video processed latter?
http://youtu.be/G2KLtGsl-L0

Also Jimmy Rig ( wich does the same as ipisoft, but limited to 1 kinect ) is not realtime?
http://youtu.be/mBWEu_V0IrQ

:( sad. Looking at the videos seems it's realtime.


I've seen a realtime motion transfer throught Kinect in Motion Builder done by a friend on Motion Builder Viewport with http://www.brekel.com, but he used only one kinect as data entrance. A system with only one kinect is not good. When the character turns around the software goes confuse and there will be several errors in capturing.

silviotoledo
05-19-2012, 06:23 PM
i already said... this... yes iPi and MB give realtime PLAYBACK... but realtime INPUT is something entirely different.

Got it! So it's only Playback in realtime!

Titus
05-20-2012, 01:13 AM
You can do live puppetry with Blender and some controlers like the wiimote:

http://www.blendernation.com/2009/07/07/blender-marionette-with-wiimote-experiment/

http://www.blendernation.com/2009/05/06/pyppet-real-time-character-control-with-sound-and-gamepads/

http://www.blendernation.com/2009/05/06/pyppet-real-time-character-control-with-sound-and-gamepads/

Then mix this with your live set in tricaster if you want, or create everything with the Blender game engine.

P.S. I do know you can control live animation with other 3D programs like Maya, but I'm not going to talk about this here.

Titus
05-20-2012, 01:20 AM
DiM: I see your company will be at MIFA, I'll be there too :D.

DiM
05-20-2012, 06:45 AM
Thx Titus, Blender can used Kinect too but 1 kinect so the result is not good for the moment :/ I think the best with kinect is ipisoft, or Xsens MVN but I haven't the price now I waiting for information, I test a lot of solution for finding the good system ;)

and true I will be at MIFA, so you can meet us in Mifa ;)

thx all for your help I hop I will find a solution ;)

Titus
05-20-2012, 10:13 AM
I didn't get what you want was a mocap system.

ipisoft is good and cheap, but it's far from being realtime. After calibration, every capture may take several minutes to get the animation ready, the calculation is done inside the video card.

Xsense has it's drawbacks as well (like any other mocap system). In this case I remember they have a problem with certain movements like jumps. So just watch if your needs lie inside their capabilities.

DiM
05-20-2012, 11:39 PM
I don't want specially mocap system Titus, just have a live return like this http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlmjdn_les-aventures-de-tintin-le-secret-de-la-licorne-steven-spielberg-making-of-n-1-hd_shortfilms
with virtual cam and live animation ;)
but I try with all system you had explain ;) and I will come to give the solution I will find :p
someone know what tricaster system we will need for this ?
thx again to all

RebelHill
05-21-2012, 01:38 AM
You dont specifically want mocap, but the video you post IS mocap?!

Also, the system used for TinTin is a completely custom build... its not something you can just buy... oh, and it cost MILLIONS of dollars.

And umm... tricaster... why?

DiM
05-21-2012, 03:50 AM
Yes I know it cost Millions of dollars :) but I think we can do it for minus ;)
if I must develop tools for, I will make it ;)
tricaster it's for integrate puppet into 3D in live and delete green screen behind puppet
and too maybe integrate 3D character to animate ;) if we can of course

it's difficult to explain all we need, the thing I will like it's do it with Newtek tool (LW and tricaster) but if is not possible we do it in a other method ;)

RebelHill
05-21-2012, 04:08 AM
Well, if you want to go creating a whole toolset FOR lw, then sure you can do it there. if not, then its just not possible.

The cheapest youre going to find is the xsens + motionbuilder.

Now piping that to a video mixer is gonna be something entirely different again. MB won't give you a "cut out" of the character animation happening in there, again, not unless you want to go creating custom tools to do it.

I believe Ive seen somewhere tools available to let you send a live video feed into MB, so you may be able to do it that way.

But in all honesty what you're describing just does not exist as an off the shelf system you can buy, even as different parts. SO you're either going to have to create some custom stuff of your own, or accept a compromise somewhere.

DiM
05-21-2012, 04:22 AM
Yes I thinking too we can't find all in one
it's for this reason I want to find a lot of compromise system and find the best of many system for making one process at all ;)

RebelHill
05-21-2012, 04:27 AM
Well, best of luck to ya... bon chance. you're gonna be in for spending a WHOLE BUNCH of both money and time.

Be nice to see what you eventually come up with.

DiM
05-21-2012, 04:34 AM
True :) thx for your wish
and I'll come to show you what we will do ;)

Titus
05-21-2012, 01:46 PM
Optitrack is a less expensive mocap system than most other products, I think with 8k - 12k you can get a working rig:

http://www.naturalpoint.com/optitrack/

DiM
05-22-2012, 06:18 AM
Thx Titus, I will look this too and compare all possibility ;)