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Tony3d
05-05-2012, 08:11 AM
I'm sick of Apple's silence about the Mac Pro refresh, and I'm considering moving over to Windows. Looked at HP workstations yesterday. I configured the following..

Intel® Xeon® E5-2680 2.70 20MB 1600 8C
Intel® Xeon® E5-2680 8C 2.70 20MB 1600 CPU-2 (Must be same speed as Processor 1.)
HP Z820 Localization Kit
HP Dual Processor Air Cooling Kit (Supported with Dual Processors only.)
AMD FirePro V7900 2GB Graphics
HP 16GB (8x2GB) DDR3-1600 2-CPU RAM
HP 1000GB SATA 7200 1st HDD
16X SuperMulti DVDRW SATA 1stODD
HP Single Unit Packaging
HP USB Standard Keyboard
No Included Mouse
HP 3/3/3 Warranty

Cost after 27% discount $7,395.12 including Tax!

That is one kick *** machine, and it's everything I can do to hold myself back. After WWDC I'm switching if Apple remains tight lipped! Plus a 3 year warranty, and it's shipping!

My big question is how difficult is this switch going to be for me? I have never used Windows....ever. My plan is to basically use Windows just for Lightwave in the beginning. I have a one year old 27" iMac for everything else. As I get more comfortable, I'll slowly migrate everything I need over. I am just plain fed up with Apple! They can't pull their heads out of their #$% long enough to realize they have other products besides iPad, and iPhone. Looking for good constructive help here. Also, very excited about all the plugins that will be coming my way. Thanks!

OnlineRender
05-05-2012, 08:37 AM
DO it! I would advice most people that LW on pc has to have more advantages than MAC ??? but I hate macs

ben martin
05-05-2012, 09:08 AM
You won't regret it, and you can always keep your MAC around since you already have one. :)

UnCommonGrafx
05-05-2012, 11:19 AM
It will be painful, at first.

But after a bit, you will ... well, you will see diffs in how you work with apps and that will be the biggest grind to get over.

As an aside, if you already have mac pro, why not upgrade it, motherboard and all? Or are they made that differently? (Yeah, dumb question.)

Tony3d
05-05-2012, 11:56 AM
It will be painful, at first.

But after a bit, you will ... well, you will see diffs in how you work with apps and that will be the biggest grind to get over.

As an aside, if you already have mac pro, why not upgrade it, motherboard and all? Or are they made that differently? (Yeah, dumb question.)

Lightwave runs exactly the same correct? I'd be running Lightwave saving, and backing up projects. Can you burn backups with just the OS, or do you need a program like Toast? Can someone tell me what I would definitely need to buy software wise to get up, and running? Is there any resources to guide me along the way? This is totally foreign territory for me! Really am thinking it's the way I should be heading though.

DigitalSorcery8
05-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Just a thought... but before going with HP, you may want to check out other systems. I've configured a more powerful system (dual 2.8 Xeons; 48gb RAM, nVidia Quadro 4000) at this vendor for quite a bit less and will probably order workstations for our new studio (when feasible) from these guys:

http://www.aspensystemsdirect.com/

If you can't get the exact configuration you want online, you can email them and they were MORE than helpful creating a quote for a great system. I just found them several weeks ago.

Just FYI. :)

Tony3d
05-05-2012, 12:18 PM
Just a thought... but before going with HP, you may want to check out other systems. I've configured a more powerful system (dual 2.8 Xeons; 48gb RAM, nVidia Quadro 4000) at this vendor for quite a bit less and will probably order workstations for our new studio (when feasible) from these guys:

http://www.aspensystemsdirect.com/

If you can't get the exact configuration you want online, you can email them and they were MORE than helpful creating a quote for a great system. I just found them several weeks ago.

Just FYI. :)

Yes, those are a better deal. Thanks for the link.

jeric_synergy
05-05-2012, 12:23 PM
Cost after 27% discount ....
That's a healthy discount. Where's it coming from?

Tony3d
05-05-2012, 12:29 PM
That's a healthy discount. Where's it coming from?

I guess because I own a business. The rep just offered it to me.

BigHache
05-05-2012, 01:58 PM
As a former "Mac user" turn Mac/Win user, if you make the leap just decide to do it. There are differences in the OS GUI, but at the end of the day it's basically 2 different ways to do the same thing. I fought going Windows for a long time but now it's just another tool.

The only thing keeping me around on the Mac is FCP. I do most everything else in Windows now just because it's convenient.

aidenvfx
05-05-2012, 02:27 PM
I love the Mac OS and use a Mac Pro but if I was to do it over I would go PC. The 3D world is going GPU and Mac's are being stuck in the dark ages with a lack of graphics cards compared to the PC.

ben martin
05-05-2012, 02:30 PM
Lightwave runs exactly the same correct?

Mouse opearions differs

I'd be running Lightwave saving, and backing up projects. Can you burn backups with just the OS, or do you need a program like Toast?

If you have a DVD-RW hardware drive mounted, Windows allows direct DVD/CD burn witout the need of any other external software.
Also there are free open source software to do it like www.cdburnerxp.se/



Can someone tell me what I would definitely need to buy software wise to get up, and running?


-Windows 7_x64 OS
-Lightwave x64
All the rest is up to you, you can install PhotoShop or something similar.
There are also open source options like http://www.gimp.org/


Is there any resources to guide me along the way? This is totally foreign territory for me! Really am thinking it's the way I should be heading though.

Windows is pretty much like OS-MAC the differences are about true multitask claims on MAC-OS side and the price of hardware.
MAC is a lock system PC is completely open regarding hardware and software upgrades.
Windows OS versions, normally don't block user software previously working on old OS versions.

All the rest is pretty much self-explanatory and similar.

Lewis
05-05-2012, 02:35 PM
Lightwave runs exactly the same correct?

NO, it runs Better on windows and has less bugs and in some cases it can be faster to render too :).

Dexter2999
05-05-2012, 02:46 PM
As a former "Mac user" turn Mac/Win user, if you make the leap just decide to do it. There are differences in the OS GUI, but at the end of the day it's basically 2 different ways to do the same thing. I fought going Windows for a long time but now it's just another tool.

The only thing keeping me around on the Mac is FCP. I do most everything else in Windows now just because it's convenient.

Funny. I was the exact opposite. I fought Mac for years. And was ready to cave in and go Mac to get FCP, then they announced FCX and I hesitated. Now the lack of an updated MacPro has me re-thinking things and probably stay on PC.

joelaff
05-05-2012, 02:49 PM
You will not regret it. Almost every program runs better with fewer bugs, and much better support from the developer. (The exception of course is apps bought by Apple, when they then kill the PC version.) I made the switch from being the biggest Mac fan out there (I had the first Mac early Feb 1984) to being a huge PC fan back during 2000-2001, and, wow, I was amazed what I had been missing out on with my devotion to the mac.

jeric_synergy
05-05-2012, 02:59 PM
A lot of die-hard FCP users opened their eyes when FCX was released and it turns out that other editing systems work just fine. In fact, better.

DigitalSorcery8
05-05-2012, 03:30 PM
A lot of die-hard FCP users opened their eyes when FCX was released and it turns out that other editing systems work just fine. In fact, better.

Yeah, I recall reading that in Creative Cow magazine.

OnlineRender
05-05-2012, 03:31 PM
what about ubuntu :) http://lwonlinux.oleeblood.com/

Tony3d
05-05-2012, 04:19 PM
Thanks everyone. One more question. My new machine is definitely going to be 16 core. Won't I need Windows Professional to access all 16 cores or no?

jeric_synergy
05-05-2012, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I recall reading that in Creative Cow magazine.
It was talked about in many places.

FC users seemed to embody many of the worst stereotypes of Macoids: refusal to even consider that another piece of software might work just as well, slavish devotion to the product. Weird.

--Let's not even talk about those Media 100 users. Apparently they LIKE to hold down too many keys.

BigHache
05-05-2012, 04:39 PM
Funny. I was the exact opposite. I fought Mac for years. And was ready to cave in and go Mac to get FCP, then they announced FCX and I hesitated.

Interesting contrast. :) Not to completely derail the thread, but what are you editing with now?



Thanks everyone. One more question. My new machine is definitely going to be 16 core. Won't I need Windows Professional to access all 16 cores or no?

No, I think you're just limited to 2 physical CPUs.

Dexter2999
05-05-2012, 05:01 PM
Interesting contrast. :) Not to completely derail the thread, but what are you editing with now?

Avid Media Composer. But I was one of about five guys who knew Avid in the company. All of the kids straight out of school were using FinalCut and there are more of them than you can shake a stick at.

When they called me in on my day off...while I was sick, to make a change to an edit that the VP wanted. I caved and recommended they go FinalCut. Eventually the company has moved almost exclusively to FinalCut.

Except my old system that doesn't do anything anymore as my department was made redundant. I just kept my "toys" when everything else was carted away.

Serling
05-05-2012, 05:22 PM
Well, this may tick some Mac folks off, but the reality is Windows has more software support, more hardware support, larger (way larger) installed user base, and is every bit as capable now as any Mac was back in the day. I use Windows 7 Pro 64 on an HP Z-800 workstation at my job every day: 24 cores with 16 GB of RAM and I can run After Effects, PhotoShop, Modeler and Layout in the background while cranking out news on Avid Newscutter (bleh!) in the foreground and Newscutter doesn't even know all those other apps are running. (Before our recent upgrade to these machines, I couldn't even run PhotoShop behind Newscutter on Win XP32 without eventually crashing the whole system.)

Being able to "hot switch" between all these apps and still edit in the foreground has sped up my workflow for special projects immensely.

Yeah, Mac has had this kind of power and flexibility for years but that's the point: Windows has caught up, which is why - I suspect - Apple has raised the white flag on its pro line. They can't claim "Windows sucks" anymore and still be credible. They're turning their business model to consumer hardware and apps. FCX is a prime illustration of that point.

warmiak
05-05-2012, 07:59 PM
....
Yeah, Mac has had this kind of power and flexibility for years but that's the point: Windows has caught up, which is why - I suspect - Apple has raised the white flag on its pro line.
....



Windows had nothing to catch up with.
If anything it was Apple who was doing catching up finally switching to preemptive multitasking with OS X - roughly 5 years behind Windows.

I suspect your inability to run multiple apps on XP had to do with 32 vs 64 ( and thus more memory ) than anything else.

kopperdrake
05-06-2012, 03:18 AM
We switched to Macs when the new Mac Pros came out a few years ago, and switched back to PCs a year ago. I've seen both sides of the fence and prefer PCs or 3D work due to:

Cheaper hardware
More choice with graphics cards
More choice with plugins (this is a BIG issue for me)
More choice with complementary apps *that run well*
Networkinq quibbles (for a self-networker one platform is so much easier)

Only thing to bare in mind is that Windows 7 doesn't come with a mail application. I use Thunderbird on the PC, but I do prefer Apple's Mail - very simple and elegant.

The Macs sit under the desks as spare rendering stations, or to run Mac-specific software when needed, though even they are dual boot windows.

For ease of us GUI give me Mac OS any day (for home use etc), but for studio work give me a PC.

Tartiflette
05-06-2012, 04:32 AM
Wow, an Anti-Mac feast ! :D

I, for one, am one of the few (very few reading this thread...) guys who has worked on both systems (started working professionally on LW 4.0 on Windows NT 3.51...) and can't stand having only a windows PC more than 1 month...
After that, if i don't have my Mac OS X, i'm starting to go crazy !
It's true that support is better on Windows (probably due to the years of having quite exclusively 3D apps on Windows...) and that a lot of plugins are available only on Windows, although it's more a LightWave related issue, Cinema4D for example having about every of its plugins available for Macs as well, but using Mac OS X is just so much more enjoyable that it's a no brainer for me.

As far as machines go, however, i have made the choice of building a Hackintosh (really easy now to do that, even "idiot proof" i would say...) and have best of both world, i.e. a "cheap" machine and a great OS.

Just my 2 cents, you can now continue to praise Windows and its "greatness" ! :D


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

UnCommonGrafx
05-06-2012, 04:55 AM
Snarly remarks like that haven't shown up until now, from you.
Based on the read so far, no one has tried to 'shank' the mac. Many have them and use them but the realities for a studio/work environment are what they are.

Macs are great machines and have an excellent OS to go with those great machines. There is a lack of support, as you note, though, for things one might need to do to earn money.

Folks stated or admitting that makes not an Anti-Mac fest. Quit being a victim of such an opinion.


Wow, an Anti-Mac feast ! :D

snipped

Just my 2 cents, you can now continue to praise Windows and its "greatness" ! :D


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Markc
05-06-2012, 05:02 AM
I don't really give a monkey's about win/mac debates, everyone to there own :)

I just want to know why a $9000+ machine doesn't come with a mouse? :stumped:

UnCommonGrafx
05-06-2012, 05:30 AM
Because those trackpads are AWFULLY SLICK!!

I come home to my pc and wish I had one as the muscle memory from using one is easily built.

Tartiflette
05-06-2012, 05:49 AM
Snarly remarks like that haven't shown up until now, from you.
Well, i just found that thread funny to read with a 100% agreement that Windows was better than Mac OS X to run LightWave, which it probably is, and i thought that i would add my 2 cents here and say that it's not all that "black" on OS X side.
You could even find some useful information (trying to be funny -which obviously miserably failed...- isn't incompatible with providing insights...) as i was saying that the OP could try to build how own machine while still running Mac OS X on it, which i personally do.

Anyway, the smileys weren't enough it seems so i'll stop here and let this thread go. :)


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

aperezg
05-06-2012, 08:45 AM
I am a Mac Fan But.

To be realistic.

Just look the threads in a Mac and Pc section inside LW forum, the Pc section only has few topics, Mac section has many thread.

Few year ago Mac was strong than Windows XP o Vista, in comparison.
These days Windows gains more ground than Mac.

Only think, when Steve Jobs left Apple, Apple began to down, only when he come back to Apple, Apple started to grow again.

The brain of Apple disappears, the history shows us that Apple not has long-term Future, with Steve Jobs offstage.

This year I am waiting for news of Apple the new OS system, and the news of imac or mac pro.

Although I am not a Windows fan, in our business, a computer is only a tool, if you find two tools than make the same work obviously you prefer the better tool.

gravin
05-06-2012, 09:02 AM
I've switched back and forth a few times, both platforms have there advantages and disadvantages. For me PC is more flexible on the hardware side. It's easier to manage cost with upgrades and custom builds. Mac hardware feels nicer though, very much like an appliance, no need to worry about whats going on inside the box but keeping up with the constant changes in technology can get expensive. If it wasn't for Windows 7 I would probably say stick with Mac, Vista and even XP are pretty terrible compared to OSX but Win7 holds up pretty well usability wise. The big sacrifice for me moving to PC was the lack of powerful productivity/time management software, lots of great stuff available on OSX but web apps are still an option on PC.

stealthworks
05-07-2012, 04:40 AM
Tony3D, let me just throw in my 2 cents worth. That's a pretty high spec system you are considering there and I've no doubt that for the first few months you'll absolutely love it. But, consider what your experience will be like 6-12 months down the line. No matter how brilliant your PC spec and how much memory you have on board, in my experience with Windows, inevitably things start to slow down with disk fragmentation, registry clogging up and those never-ending Windows Updates! Mac OS seems to do things completely differently with the result that I hardly ever shut down my Mac and 2+ years down the line, boot-up times, application launching times etc have always stayed constant. I've fond the only way to keep my other Windows PC in top performance is to do a reinstall of the OS every 6-12 months.
Granted you have a LOT more flexibility with a PC in being able to pick and choose your hardware but if 80% of your time is spent doing day-to-day activities like email, web, documents etc. then its such a pleasure not having to wait ages as windows tries to load up an email client or IE. Also things like installing and removing apps are a breeze with a Mac compared to all those registry changes that goes on behind the scenes with a PC.

This is not a discussion on whether PC or Mac OS is better for specific applications such as Lightwave and I hope I'm not coming across as a mac fan-boy but rather just wanted to share my experiences on what I have found the user experience is with Mac Vs PC.

ben martin
05-07-2012, 10:25 AM
Thanks everyone. One more question. My new machine is definitely going to be 16 core. Won't I need Windows Professional to access all 16 cores or no?

You only need a 64bits windows version to have access to memory over 3.5Gb.

For instance, if you buy 16Gb of ram to you new PC and install Windows 32Bits version, this OS-(32bits) won't be able to recognize/manage more than 3.5Gb of memory, so all the rest (till 16Gb) will be wasted (not used).

"Windows 7 64 bits" will recognize the 16 cores CPU (using the correct motherboard socket for it) and all the memory you can trow at it.

All is straight forward, no worries. vendors normally know all about these little guidelines when assembling a new PC.

raymondtrace
05-07-2012, 10:35 AM
Also, very excited about all the plugins that will be coming my way. Thanks!

That alone is reason to add Windows to your toolbox.

3D on Mac has never been strong, especially as Apple liked to rock the boat with processors. It was a nuisance for 3D developers to keep up with Apple's transitions from 68k->PPC->Intel.

Transitions are never as difficult as your existing platform vendor makes it out to be.

ben martin
05-07-2012, 12:42 PM
... for the first few months you'll absolutely love it. But, consider what your experience will be like 6-12 months down the line. No matter how brilliant your PC spec and how much memory you have on board, in my experience with Windows, inevitably things start to slow down with disk fragmentation, registry clogging up and those never-ending Windows Updates! ... I've fond the only way to keep my other Windows PC in top performance is to do a reinstall of the OS every 6-12 months.
My friend, you are absolutely outdated!
Just get an HD defrag and a registry cleaner.

If you need a professional maintenance software you can't go wrong with http://www.tune-up.com/

If you prefer a completely free solution, that does the job very well, you can go for: http://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER and http://www.piriform.com/defraggler to defrag.

I have My old Windows XP64 installer up to 3 years without any glitch, problem or slow performance.
All updates done up to SP2, since MS decided not to release SP3 to XP64.
I wonder why... no i don't is pretty obvious... to force the XP64 licence users to upgrade.
I keep preferring XP64 over Windows 7 though. (go figure). :)

Rayek
05-07-2012, 01:51 PM
But, consider what your experience will be like 6-12 months down the line. No matter how brilliant your PC spec and how much memory you have on board, in my experience with Windows, inevitably things start to slow down with disk fragmentation, registry clogging up and those never-ending Windows Updates! Mac OS seems to do things completely differently with the result that I hardly ever shut down my Mac and 2+ years down the line, boot-up times, application launching times etc have always stayed constant. I've fond the only way to keep my other Windows PC in top performance is to do a reinstall of the OS every 6-12 months.

Really, this is no longer the case. Even with old winxp a simple ccleaner used once in a while will clean up old temporary files. I have been running my current installation of Win7 for more than two years now, and keep it running all day: rock solid, no slowdowns at all, and as fast as day 1. And those updates keep the system protected, which is not something Apple can say (600.000 infected macs last month, and Apple was quite slow to react. It has been shown and proved time and again in the last couple of years that MacOsX's security is quite bad, to say the very least. Windows 7 and Linux are way ahead in that regard.



Granted you have a LOT more flexibility with a PC in being able to pick and choose your hardware but if 80% of your time is spent doing day-to-day activities like email, web, documents etc. then its such a pleasure not having to wait ages as windows tries to load up an email client or IE. Also things like installing and removing apps are a breeze with a Mac compared to all those registry changes that goes on behind the scenes with a PC.


Again, this is something from the nineties, and not the current situation at all: in my work I deal with both macs and windows (not PC --> your mac is a PC as well, so is a Linux box), and the built-in browsers boot up just as fast on comparable systems. But one thing where Windows 7 outperforms MacOsX is multi-tasking and switching. Also, research has shown Mac users need to click much more to perform the same tasks.

And unfortunately Apple seems to have turned its back on professional users these last couple of years. I used to be pro-Apple, but these days Apple mainly seems to be in the business of creating toys and consumer, not creator, devices. And it absolutely makes sense: why focus on a small niche market, when you can sell billions of iphones, pods, and ipads?

A friend of mine bought a MacPro workstation 11 months ago, and he is feeling incredibly frustrated by Apple: he wants to make use of GPU rendering and update his video card, but there is only *one* option for him according to Apple: buy a Quadro that is completely overpriced and useless for Lightwave, and forget about GPU computing. No Tesla for Mac, according to Nvidia (he contacted both Apple and Nvidia). No modern video card updates for him. And he hates the new Lion os. He is now looking into linux, or even Windows (which he hates - can you imagine?). If had known what he knows now, he would have never bought a macPro, for professional 3d creation/design.

And one thing I sorely miss on Macs and WinXP boxes: windows key + cursor keys allow you to control windows management. That has been the single most efficiency/workflow enhancing feature for me, especially on a multi-screen system, and I could not live without this. Windows management on WinXP and MacOsX is just outdated and *slow*.

But I adhere to a very simple paradigm: whatever works best and offers me the most flexibility. At this moment that is Windows 7. A couple of years ago MacOsX was ahead - currently it is Windows 7 (by a slight margin). For 3d content creation I would stay away from buying a Mac in the current market, though. If you do want to purchase a MacPro Workstation, wait till the end of this year. Then we will know whether Apple is giving up on them (there is a rumour), or will update the MacPro line. I hope they do: otherwise the pro-market will leave Apple in droves.

*edit* it is heartening to see that Adobe's CS6 mercury engine now runs on opencl on macOsX only, with Windows having to wait - which gives some hope! :-)

Tony3d
05-07-2012, 01:53 PM
I'm Getting sweaty palms!

OnlineRender
05-07-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm Getting sweaty palms!



take it from another perspective ... " you can buy a top end machine and another 2 to be used as a render farm " for the same price as top end Mac...

Rayek
05-07-2012, 02:20 PM
For serious 3d and video work either Mac or Windows is just fine. Go with what you like most, but do some research first, and keep an open mind. Create a list of tasks/things you must be able to do (including software), and shop around. For example, I would never buy memory from Apple: much to expensive.
Some of the fastest workstations can be bought at Boxx - but you pay through the nose.

So, in a nutshell; do your homework, and make an informed decision.

kopperdrake
05-07-2012, 02:26 PM
But, consider what your experience will be like 6-12 months down the line. No matter how brilliant your PC spec and how much memory you have on board, in my experience with Windows, inevitably things start to slow down with disk fragmentation, registry clogging up and those never-ending Windows Updates! Mac OS seems to do things completely differently with the result that I hardly ever shut down my Mac and 2+ years down the line, boot-up times, application launching times etc have always stayed constant. I've fond the only way to keep my other Windows PC in top performance is to do a reinstall of the OS every 6-12 months.

Installing your OS on an SSD drive helps, *a lot*. Personally I use a couple of SSDs in the PC, one for the OS, and another for large application sets (Adobe suite for example) and as the cache drive. All projects sit on an external RAID box and this works sweetly. I cleaned the disc up a week ago, but to be honest, I didn't notice the difference - it never felt sluggish in the first place! Again, not judging either OS, I use both, but Windows 7 was a good experience for me, going from OS X. It felt similar to using OS from the respect that it felt like one company designed the entire thing, unlike previous incarnations of Windows.

Rayek
05-07-2012, 02:54 PM
I agree whole-heartedly: the major bottleneck these days is the HDD - whether on Mac, Windows or Linux, so an SSD is a 'must-have' to improve any OS's performance. I could *never* go back to a HDD system drive.


Installing your OS on an SSD drive helps, *a lot*. Personally I use a couple of SSDs in the PC, one for the OS, and another for large application sets (Adobe suite for example) and as the cache drive.

stealthworks
05-07-2012, 05:21 PM
OK, I wasn't going to post back here since this is obviously a Windows fan club, BUT, the original poster did say he had no experience of Windows so its only fair he gets a balanced view of the good and the bad. I didn't argue that Windows is more cost effective and has a lot more hardware options than Mac but to post that Windows has fundamentally changed since previous incarnations is just plain misinformation. Dont believe me? read this: http://www.pcworld.com/article/153624/under_the_hood_windows_7_is_vistas_twin.html

Microsoft maybe have made Windows 7 more stable compared to other versions but at its core, the architecture is the same. In a way, Windows has to be a lot smarter as it has to cater for so many different combinations of components. To do this it uses a Hardware Abstraction Layer which 'abstracts' the hardware from the OS which in turn is bound to take a performance hit. In comparison Apple only have to deal with a known set of components and so can squeeze out a lot more performance from the given hardware. The bottom line is that Windows and Mac use different technologies for the OS and IMHO whatever way OSX seems to do it, there doesn't seem to be a need for registry cleaners, defraggers and anti-virus programs (at the minute!). For the poster that was so quick to point out the 600,000 Macs got infected last month, have you stopped to think why exactly this was so newsworthy and how many Windows machines do you think were infected last month? You would be pretty naive if you thought it was less than 600,000 even with all Microsofts updates! And before you all jump down my throat arguing that there are many more Windows machines out there and that's why there are more Virus's targeting windows - I totally agree- but it doesn't change the fact that you are less likely to get a virus on a Mac at this point in time compared to a Windows machine!

No doubt this post is going to generate a lot of backlash but I'm only going by my own experience (yes, and I'm using Windows 7 NOT Windows XP or Vista). Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky with my Windows 7 laptop , my Windows 7 desktop and my two Windows 7 virtual machines, and am the only one that has experienced these problems but its still a valid experience and has every right to be voiced.

The solution is of course to have a dedicated PC for your graphics work and use your Mac for everything else - that way you get the best of both worlds!

DigitalSorcery8
05-07-2012, 05:55 PM
No doubt this post is going to generate a lot of backlash but I'm only going by my own experience (yes, and I'm using Windows 7 NOT Windows XP or Vista). Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky with my Windows 7 laptop , my Windows 7 desktop and my two Windows 7 virtual machines, and am the only one that has experienced these problems but its still a valid experience and has every right to be voiced.

But if I were to go by MY own experience - having built MANY Windows machines - I haven't experienced the problems that you have. I routinely defrag my harddrives and rarely have any crashes. And don't notice any slowdowns. I am currently using 8 machines - 7 are WinXP (5 WinXP64) and one Win7 machine. I've used these machines for years and I don't experience what you experience. In fact, I REALLY like WinXP64 over Windows7 - probably because Win7 is far more different in style than any recent incarnations of Windows. Never tried Vista.

Another users experience...

sami
05-07-2012, 06:21 PM
I'm sick of Apple's silence about the Mac Pro refresh, and I'm considering moving over to Windows. Looked at HP workstations yesterday. I configured the following..

Intel® Xeon® E5-2680 2.70 20MB 1600 8C
Intel® Xeon® E5-2680 8C 2.70 20MB 1600 CPU-2 (Must be same speed as Processor 1.)
HP Z820 Localization Kit
HP Dual Processor Air Cooling Kit (Supported with Dual Processors only.)
AMD FirePro V7900 2GB Graphics
HP 16GB (8x2GB) DDR3-1600 2-CPU RAM
HP 1000GB SATA 7200 1st HDD
16X SuperMulti DVDRW SATA 1stODD
HP Single Unit Packaging
HP USB Standard Keyboard
No Included Mouse
HP 3/3/3 Warranty

Cost after 27% discount $7,395.12 including Tax!

That is one kick *** machine, and it's everything I can do to hold myself back. After WWDC I'm switching if Apple remains tight lipped! Plus a 3 year warranty, and it's shipping!

My big question is how difficult is this switch going to be for me? I have never used Windows....ever. My plan is to basically use Windows just for Lightwave in the beginning. I have a one year old 27" iMac for everything else. As I get more comfortable, I'll slowly migrate everything I need over. I am just plain fed up with Apple! They can't pull their heads out of their #$% long enough to realize they have other products besides iPad, and iPhone. Looking for good constructive help here. Also, very excited about all the plugins that will be coming my way. Thanks!

Anecdote which may or may not be useful. I've had problems with my HP Z800 specifically the raid controllers and overall - I'm not happy with it. I prefer my mac pro running win 7 x64 - it's a much more stable machine- I too went mac for FCP but came running back once Premiere got its act together... Hope you have better luck with HP than I did.

stealthworks
05-07-2012, 06:24 PM
But if I were to go by MY own experience - having built MANY Windows machines - I haven't experienced the problems that you have. I routinely defrag my harddrives and rarely have any crashes. And don't notice any slowdowns.

Another users experience...

Really?! I'd love to get hold of one of your machines. Trust me, if I were able to get a Windows machine that behaved as reliably and as smoothly as my Macbook Pro, I'd buy it in a shot to do all my development on (I am a .NET programmer and so have to use Windows in my job). Funny thing is, I find my virtual machines (Windows running under VMWARE on my Mac) tends to behave a bit better and faster than my dedicated Windows machines. Go figure! Then again,maybe my experiences are just plain different to everyone else's so happy to concede !

JonW
05-07-2012, 06:36 PM
Have a look at this thread for some benchmarks.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=126427

You should be able to put together a custom box using a small supplier for $130 - $140 per GHz with a pair of 2687W CPUs. 3.1 x 8 x 2 = 49.6 GHz

For those last few hundred dollars it's worth getting these CPUs. Today's equivalent top performing compared to my 3 year old W5580 CPUs. Over twice the speed!

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=100802

Lightwolf
05-07-2012, 06:39 PM
Really?! I'd love to get hold of one of your machines. Trust me, if I were able to get a Windows machine that behaved as reliably and as smoothly as my Macbook Pro, I'd buy it in a shot to do all my development on (I am a .NET programmer and so have to use Windows in my job).
You can also have one of mine. I also didn't bother to defrag since Vista (certainly not on the new box with the SSD either) and I wonder what those registry issues are that everybody complains about.

I'd be happy if my iMac was as reliable as any of my self-built machines though... (the G4 mini was good while it made sense to use it though) ;)

Just to add another anecdote.

Unfortunately I can't really comment on the actual topic since a machine like that is usually way out of my budget...

Cheers,
Mike

warmiak
05-07-2012, 06:43 PM
In a way, Windows has to be a lot smarter as it has to cater for so many different combinations of components. To do this it uses a Hardware Abstraction Layer which 'abstracts' the hardware from the OS which in turn is bound to take a performance hit. In comparison Apple only have to deal with a known set of components and so can squeeze out a lot more performance from the given hardware.

You are wrong and not because you like OSX but because ...well, you are wrong.

Both Windows and OSX use HAL for just about all drivers ( in fact all modern operating systems do)

THere is something to be said about OSX having more stable drivers simply because there are few choices and these tend to be heavily tested by Apple while on Windows you can get drivers for just about every piece of
PC like hardware in existence - some of them are pretty crappy but hey, you have choices.

In terms of performance, Windows tends to perform better on the same hardware simply because companies like Nvidia and ATI develop and tune their drivers with Windows in mind ( that's where their hardware gets benchmarked on ).

http://www.macworld.com/article/1155124/mac_windows_graphics.html

PS.
Here is a link to Apple's own documentation for developers - take a look at their Core Audio stack , right smack in the middle there is a reddish box labeled HAL:
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html

Lightwolf
05-07-2012, 06:51 PM
PS.
Here is a link to Apple's own documentation for developers - take a look at their Core Audio stack , right smack in the middle there is a reddish box labeled HAL:
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html
Which is one of the cases where OSX still really shines as well. (Core Audio that is).

Cheers,
Mike

ben martin
05-07-2012, 07:07 PM
Really?! I'd love to get hold of one of your machines... Ok. Now you are confusing me... are you suggesting that PC users experiences are doubtful?

I work with my Pc every day, weekends, nights and holiday.
I guess the only days I don't turn my PCs "ON" is when or if I'm hill and very debilitated.
Even so, if I have some strength to seat at desk, I'll turn my PC on.

I've working on several movies with tight-time frames to be respected.
The last project was 6 month in a row, working all days /(weekends included) and believe it or not (I really don't care) my PCs Windows XP64-Os never failed me once, ever!

I have four i7-2600k/16Gb (auto-smart overclocked as needed by bios) working on render-farm and none failed me once.
Simply keeping an auto-maintenance routine once a week.
Normally running by schedule at night.
So, interpret this as you wish.

Some PC's running Windows have problems?
SURE! So does MAC.
There are motherboards with faulty components that do not show persistent failing patterns, that can be a problem.
There are bios to be corrected / upgraded and so on.
Windows has this capacity to run a myriad of different hardware brands combinations.

MAC-OS? Damn... I have some MAC-OS friends complaining that sometimes Apple decides to “update/change” something so simple as graphic coordinates (display graphic drivers) and some software needs to be upgraded (paid upgrades) to keep working, how pathetic is that?

My experience, tells me that, if the hardware is "QC" tested and "pass", normally the Windows problems resided between the chair and the keyboard.

Rayek
05-07-2012, 07:26 PM
I didn't argue that Windows is more cost effective and has a lot more hardware options than Mac but to post that Windows has fundamentally changed since previous incarnations is just plain misinformation. Dont believe me? read this: http://www.pcworld.com/article/153624/under_the_hood_windows_7_is_vistas_twin.html


No-one here has even suggested that the core system has changed that much - but the GUI has. And that is the interface a user has to deal with on an every-day basis. Windows7 has a very good GUI - arguably slightly ahead of the current Lion. I shudder at the thought of Win8, though.



Microsoft maybe have made Windows 7 more stable compared to other versions but at its core, the architecture is the same. In a way, Windows has to be a lot smarter as it has to cater for so many different combinations of components. To do this it uses a Hardware Abstraction Layer which 'abstracts' the hardware from the OS which in turn is bound to take a performance hit. In comparison Apple only have to deal with a known set of components and so can squeeze out a lot more performance from the given hardware.

True, but this has its advantages and its drawbacks. Apple's policy to keep (almost) any other hardware vendor out of the equation, and the fact that the hardware is difficult to expand or customize, means their machines have limited expansion options. It also means most Apple users do not update their hardware quite as often as Windows users. Which is both a good and bad thing.

Apple's hardware is actually pretty mediocre - or at least some of the components used are low-grade components that can be purchased at low prices. The memory modules in the current line-up are low-brand ones, as far as I know, and sold at premium prices by Apple. I think that is unfair.


The bottom line is that Windows and Mac use different technologies for the OS and IMHO whatever way OSX seems to do it, there doesn't seem to be a need for registry cleaners, defraggers and anti-virus programs (at the minute!).

I do not agree. OSX is very vulnerable to outside attacks, much more so than Windows - and it has been proven again and again. Not to install any protection is... unwise at the moment.

Steve Jobs did a great job in downplaying how far OSX lags behind both Linux and Windows in regards to security, and industry security experts agree that this has created a problem in user perception: while users are, for the most part, still utterly convinced that 'a mac cannot be hacked or infected', the reality is that it is the easiest system to break. Ostrich behaviour like hiding your head in the sand is not going to be of help to yourself or to anyone else.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/tim_cook_challenge_fix_apples_security_mentality/


For the poster that was so quick to point out the 600,000 Macs got infected last month, have you stopped to think why exactly this was so newsworthy and how many Windows machines do you think were infected last month? You would be pretty naive if you thought it was less than 600,000 even with all Microsofts updates! And before you all jump down my throat arguing that there are many more Windows machines out there and that's why there are more Virus's targeting windows - I totally agree- but it doesn't change the fact that you are less likely to get a virus on a Mac at this point in time compared to a Windows machine!


You can downplay this event as much as you want, the fact is that Macs, due to their increasing popularity in the North America, are vulnerable. I am not comparing this with Windows or Linux - I just feel it is a worrying situation when you, as a fervent mac user, keep telling anyone who gets a Mac, that no protection is required, while on the other hand a new unprotected Mac is much more vulnerable than a well protected Windows 7 machine (and the built-in Win7 security is actually quite good these days, according to security experts).

Of course more Windows machines are infected (90% of the world's PC's run a version of Windows - how can it *not* be?); but trying to argue that Macs do not need protection "because there are far more Windows machines infected" is a erroneous statement, and more emotional than rational/logical.
http://www.seattlerex.com/linux-apple-and-the-lurid-allure-of-consumerism/

The fact that more Windows machines are infected has nothing to do with the current state of MacOSX security. Relying on lesser chances of being hacked, is like putting a revolver to the head with only one bullet: slim chance that you will be killed, but would you take the chance?



No doubt this post is going to generate a lot of backlash but I'm only going by my own experience (yes, and I'm using Windows 7 NOT Windows XP or Vista). Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky with my Windows 7 laptop , my Windows 7 desktop and my two Windows 7 virtual machines, and am the only one that has experienced these problems but its still a valid experience and has every right to be voiced.


Never had serious problems myself, but then, I *do* buy individual components from the best brands, and build my rigs myself, and know how to handle hardware conflicts, and so on. This is definitely not the best solution for everyone.

At work (schools and colleges), Windows 7 and MacOsX seem to work equally well. But the colleges I work at (Vanarts and VCAD) do not use macs for their 3d courses at all, but windows workstations. For the graphic design courses macs tend to be used.

And of course you have the right to mention the issues you've experienced - why are you so defensive? No-one here has said otherwise, and no-one has given the Mac any emotional flac. As a matter of fact, most here seem to like MacOSX as a system (including myself), but to overlook its short-comings is to delude yourself.



The solution is of course to have a dedicated PC for your graphics work and use your Mac for everything else - that way you get the best of both worlds!

This is a very personal opinion, of course. For myself, the MacOsX GUI gets in the way too much, and is somewhat inefficient for windows and file management. But again, that is my personal view, and I like the freedom that Linux and Windows gives me (both hardware and software). And friends of mine prefer Mac. Again: whatever works best for you.

Linux, Amiga, Windows, MacOSX: it's all the same to me. I work with whatever works most efficient and fastest for me. Unfortunately, I have noticed a tendency in most people to become emotionally attached to beliefs and material stuff (which is natural) - as long as one can put that into a larger perspective: no problem. (Well, I *do* still have an emotional attachment to my Amiga 1000 - keep it under my workdesk ;-) And I do have a original mac here as well)

However, I believe most in this thread would agree that a Windows workstation just gives one more hardware and software options for 3d content generation at generally better prices. But MacOSX is just as suitable for professional work!

jeric_synergy
05-07-2012, 07:27 PM
There's a reason they call these discussions "r-wars".

Tony3d
05-07-2012, 08:23 PM
Really didn't mean to start a OS war here. Just looking for options should I decide Apple does not have an offering for me. Naturally I would like to stay with Mac OS just because of all my software. Should Apple kill the Mac Pro, I really don't see anything in the line I would want. So, we'll have to see what happens by WWDC. If nothing is released by then, I'll have to take the leap. I would mainly be running Lightwave, and that's it maybe PhotoShop for textures. Can't be that bad.

stealthworks
05-07-2012, 08:28 PM
Windows7 has a very good GUI
A good GUI does not equate to a more stable system!


I just feel it is a worrying situation when you, as a fervent mac user, keep telling anyone who gets a Mac, that no protection is required
Actually I don't tell everyone that (thanks for misquoting me!!!) - I said 'less likely' at this point in time! I take viruses seriously and do have a virus checker on my Mac just in case(it just hasn't detected any viruses yet!)


And of course you have the right to mention the issues you've experienced - why are you so defensive?
Me? Defensive? I'm not the one that felt compelled to write a half page document pointing out my obvious errors! Look mate, at the end of the day I'm just saying I personally have had a better experience using OSX.

Up until my original post everyone advised the original poster that Windows was the way to go and as he has had no experience of windows, I just wanted to make him aware that it 'can' have its problems. I find it amazing that I've stumbled on a forum where everyone has had a trouble free experience of Windows and to all of you I say 'Good for you'. But, read the many other forums around the place and you'll see some alternative views.

Contrary to your opinion, I'm NOT a Mac fan-boy and have no links or brand loyalty whatsoever to Apple. I do use both Mac and Windows regulary (every day in fact) and I just appreciate more the system that gives me the least hassle and right now (for my use) that happens to be a Mac-as the tag line says "It just works" and that's what I'm most interested in!

Lightwolf
05-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Should Apple kill the Mac Pro, I really don't see anything in the line I would want.
Which is the core of the problem - and a real one at that as nobody seems to know really. All the components are on the table for a next generation upgrade unless Apple decide to skip the current generation of dual socket CPUs - but then nobody knows when the dual socket Ivy Bridges are supposed to ship either (and Intel has little pressure at the moment).

Cheers,
Mike

Rayek
05-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Stealthworks, apologies for the former post - it seems I had too much time on my hands (procrastinating while I should have worked on projects). Trouble with text-based communication is that things one wants to express often sound too harsh. 90% of human communication is non-verbal.

And I ordinarily never let myself lured into these kind of discussions, especially since we seem to basically agree with each other. So, my apologies - I never thought of you as a mac fan boy, and my half page post just sort of 'happened'.

Sorry for de-railing this thread, guys/girls.

Back on topic: yes, I for one am very interested in knowing whether or not Apple's workstation line will be upgraded or not. I would be surprised if Apple is still selling a lot of those atm.

stealthworks
05-08-2012, 01:31 AM
Stealthworks, apologies for the former post - it seems I had too much time on my hands (procrastinating while I should have worked on projects). Trouble with text-based communication is that things one wants to express often sound too harsh. 90% of human communication is non-verbal.

No problem Rayek, I enjoy a healthy discussion as much as the next person but as there's always two sides to an argument just feel its important to show both sides and take into account others experiences. After all, our ultimate intention was to allow the original poster to make an informed decision. Oh, and just on your analogy regarding viruses


Relying on lesser chances of being hacked, is like putting a revolver to the head with only one bullet: slim chance that you will be killed, but would you take the chance?
In an ideal world I'd rather not put the revolver to my head at all but if I was absolutely forced to, are the odds not better with the one bullet than if you had a revolver with a full chamber and a hope that the plug you bunged the barrel with was strong enough to stop the bullet? ;-)


I too am unsure if Apple will refresh the Pro line but I can't help wondering if they are thinking (as am I) that the future might be in external graphics cards that use the GPU for rendering rather than investing in multi-core CPU powerhouses. I've been playing with Octane Renderer and have been able to buy a graphics card for around £75 ( less than $100) that I slotted into my Media PC running Windows 7 and got physically based renders faster than any multi-core PC could do using the graphics card's 192 cores! Of course software has to be specially written to use the GPU and at the minute you're restricted to Nvidia cards (for Octane) but it's an intriguing possibility. I don't know much about this architecture so please dont think I'm speaking from an experts point of view but am just aware there are other possibities. if nothing else, you can be sure that if Apple are planning to retire the Pros, they will be citing credible reasons to justify it.

Anyway, enough said on the subject of Windows vs Mac, at the end of the day as you said, it's what works for you that's important and I hope our arguments haven't confused Tony3D too much!
Regards

Lightwolf
05-08-2012, 01:39 AM
I too am unsure if Apple will refresh the Pro line but I can't help wondering if they are thinking (as am I) that the future might be in external graphics cards that use the GPU for rendering rather than investing in multi-core CPU powerhouses.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were thinking that... and it's certainly adequate to author content for their consumption devices... :devil:

On the other hand... AMD have been betting on the same horse for years now. :sleeping:

Cheers,
Mike

ben martin
05-08-2012, 04:12 AM
If nothing is released by then, I'll have to take the leap. I would mainly be running Lightwave, and that's it maybe PhotoShop for textures. Can't be that bad.

Look, Tony3d, I surely rest my case here.
I tried to help, replying to all of your questions objectively and in a simple way.
So, I quit on recommend Windows OS to you anymore, it is useless if MAC-lover boys keep waving flags just because.
I have several computers and OS on my life.
I started with ZX-Spectrum, then AMIGA500, AMIGA2000. AMIGA1200 and AMIGA4000
Each AMIGA presented different versions of AMIGA OS, each OS with specific issues.
I also used x286-DOS.OS PCs, Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows XP.
In the mean while, and just for curiosity I tested and keep around an UNBUNTU – LINUX Machine (I wish Lightwave has a Linux version) and of course I worked with MAC for edition using Final Cut Pro for a while, but I quit on it due to several upgrades policy and changes that annoyed a lot.
I decided to replace FCP by Sony VEGAS pro and till date I’m very pleased I’ve done so.

So, I do recommend that you search practical informations, find some friends that really USE windows to run Lightwave/Photoshop.
Maybe someone can let you try Lightwave in a graphical designed Windows PC workstation and try it by yourself, then draw your conclusions.
My opinion is not based on any fan-club premises, rather is based on my everyday work (for 32 years of) computers experience.
If it is good enough for you, good... if it is not, good but try to test it by yourself if you can, with decent graphical PC workstations to draw your conclusions and try to run through the white noise around you.
Good luck.

Lightwolf
05-08-2012, 04:23 AM
I started with ZX-Spectrum, then AMIGA500, AMIGA2000. AMIGA1200 and AMIGA4000
Each AMIGA presented different versions of AMIGA OS, each OS with specific issues.
I also used x286-DOS.OS PCs, Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows XP.
*pfff* Don't listen to him, he knows nothing. 80286, Win3.11? See, that traitor left the Amiga way too early... :D :bday: <- just to make sure
(which is o.k. - It looks like Ben had to suffer the Win95-95 series as pay back ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike ;D

UnCommonGrafx
05-08-2012, 05:15 AM
Come on, Ben, not really called for.
The sniping at others loyalty, that is.


Getting rude so late in the party doesn't serve well.
It's all about opinion; asserting it as royal edict isn't productive.
Use what you do. Be a great artist. Join the club you want without dispersion as to your membership.

I'm a user. Fan-boy, too, if others so choose to label me as such. Doesn't add to the conversation but ok.

JonW
05-08-2012, 06:14 AM
You could put together a cheaper box with a 3930 CPU. Then you will not have tied up too much money & have a great computer. See how it goes & later in the year get a Mac Pro if they appear, or build a dual CPU box. By then it will be 10 cores per CPU anyway.

Nothing wrong with having both platforms, & they work together perfectly ok.

stealthworks
05-08-2012, 06:29 AM
Look, Tony3d, I surely rest my case here.
So, I quit on recommend Windows OS to you anymore, it is useless if MAC-lover boys keep waving flags just because.

I'm really not sure what your problem here is Ben Martin - why are you taking all of this so personally? As I've stated clearly before in my previous posts, I'm NOT a Mac fanboy and use Windows every day. If Windows behaved better for me than OSX then I'd be singing its praises over OSX in a heartbeat but 'IN MY EXPERIENCE' (and yes JUST in MY experience) this has not been the case.

I'm sure there's not many of us can claim to be such an expert on as many different types of OS as you are but with respect, most of us are more concerned with what works today. However, if I'm ever looking to run Lightwave on my ZX Spectrum, I'll surely know where to come ;-)

no hard feelings - we're all slaves to these darn corporations be it Microsoft or Apple! :-)

ben martin
05-08-2012, 06:47 AM
(which is o.k. - It looks like Ben had to suffer the Win95-95 series as pay back ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike ;D

The AMSTRAD x286 was imposed on me, when I was using dBase and making a degree in architecture buildings structure calculus.

I even tried to show in the office how good "DynaCAD" was running in the "AMIGA2000", but somehow they did not took advantage on it.
Well, it was not a bad decision after all since some years later Commodore just collapsed! :cursin:

Windows 95/98 was indeed the "dark ages" for Microsoft.
At that time I surly had to reinstall windows on a month basis, so "I guess" our friend "stealthworks" is still being haunt by that time.
Even "Millennium" efforts were disastrous for MS.
Fortunately they come around and fixed all that with XP, the best OS from Microsoft till date (Vista and W7 basically are XP with a new UI and some extra bells).


Come on, Ben, not really called for.
The sniping at others loyalty, that is.
...Getting rude so late in the party doesn't serve well...

Well, it is becoming an habit in this forum that people that don't know me personally tend to rush into that conclusion.
I am also aware that there are a couple of users that really don't like the way I put my argues, I have to deal with that and respect them.
Thought, if they got to know me personally, I bet we'll be best buddies, but hey, it is life.

Maybe it is because I tend to be pragmatic and my answers tend to always be honest and straight.
I confess that I am not given too much moderation about direct answers.
Thought, I'm sure that it is not my intention to disrespect or be rude to people and like someone said, written communication is not very expressive, it tends to be worst when one is not an English language native.

Anyway, be sure that every-time I write in this forum, is hoping to help or add something to the community, if I can't do it in the proper way, well, that is something I can try to improve, thought after so many years it won't be easy.
My personality is formed already. :D

ben martin
05-08-2012, 07:05 AM
I'm really not sure what your problem here is Ben Martin - why are you taking all of this so personally?... ....However, if I'm ever looking to run Lightwave on my ZX Spectrum, I'll surely know where to come ;-)

no hard feelings - we're all slaves to these darn corporations be it Microsoft or Apple! :-)

I'm not taking this personally.
I can respect your bad luck regarding windows, what confuses me is this general tendency of people to generalize personal bad experiences and wave it as a reference to others, especially when someone is trying to make up his mind about is business.

Clarifying, I'm not a windows full adept either.
I had my problems in the past.
My close friends usually made fun of me "in a healthy way" because, every single month I tend to fresh install "windows 98SE" on all my PCs due to degradation of registry and time response.
I think I may have my country's record of windows installations from that time.
That was my nightmare every month, so "Lightwolf" was making a joke but he really hit the spot right on.

So as you can see, I got my dose of frustration regarding Windows, but let's be honest, everything changed after XP-SP2 and adding some maintenance routinized software, that scenarios is completely not applicable now.

Anyway, people must choose what they have to choose, and to that respect, nothing much can be said about.

No hard feelings at all. :thumbsup:

BigHache
05-08-2012, 07:09 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they were thinking that... and it's certainly adequate to author content for their consumption devices... :devil:

On the other hand... AMD have been betting on the same horse for years now. :sleeping:

Cheers,
Mike

I wonder how quickly now Apple will be to "abandon" existing technologies and move toward what they see as the future with a new head at the helm. I'm sure we'll start to see subtle changes in the company.

stealthworks
05-08-2012, 07:37 AM
So as you can see, I got my dose of frustration regarding Windows, but let's be honest, everything changed after XP-SP2 and adding some maintenance routinized software, that scenarios is completely not applicable now.
I really wish this were true but sadly its not the case. How somethings implemented does ultimately have a bearing on its stability and scaleability. As I understand it, a registry database may work fine for a system initially but the more apps you install, the more it gets bloated and applications have to search through that ever increasing database size to get its settings. Add to that different versions of the same application which take up separate registry entries and all those Windows updates that are constantly writing to the registry and you can see that and if that database ever gets corrupt, the application (and sometimes the whole system) can get pretty much screwed. Yes you can take steps to backup the registry , run registry cleaners at regular intervals and the like - but I'm lazy - would just prefer if I don't have to bother with all that! I'm not going to say anything more on the subject but have a read of this article. Maybe Windows 8 will change all this in which case I'll be the first in line for my copy!
http://blog.syracuse.com/cny/2010/08/beware_windows_registry_woes.html

SBowie
05-08-2012, 07:51 AM
Yes you can take steps to backup the registry , run registry cleaners at regular intervals and the like - but I'm lazy - would just prefer if I don't have to bother with all that!Me too, and I don't. I use a free virus checker (paying it no attention whatsoever), sit behind a router, and once in a blue moon run a couple of free apps to make sure I haven't unwittingly picked up any malware. That's it. I currently run multiple Win 7 systems, two others still on Vista, and one Mac (my second OS X system). I've had next to no trouble of any sort with any of my Windows systems, dating back to the XP days. I run a completely insane bunch of apps on them, more often than not a dozen at a time. The systems are consistently fast and trouble-free.

To be honest, since, oh say around 2004 or so, the only significant computer problem I've had was one particular OS X upgrade a few years back that borked the system. I was far from the only person who had that particular problem, but queries were met with a round of "Well of course you should know better than to just update without taking these precautionary steps first!" (followed by a long list). You never see those admonitions in official forums or ads though. :p

So not to say Macs are not great in many, many ways, but my personal experience is different than yours has been. There are things I think they do really very well, but I also think that much of the stereotypical hoopla is the result of carefully managed spin and damage control rather than reality.

Rayek
05-08-2012, 09:12 PM
You may want to try Cycles in Blender as an alternative GPU-accelerated renderer - they are heading for an Arnold-like direction. Very, very fast if your graphics card supports it.

Also, Luxrender comes with a gpu renderer as well. Al free, of course :-)



I too am unsure if Apple will refresh the Pro line but I can't help wondering if they are thinking (as am I) that the future might be in external graphics cards that use the GPU for rendering rather than investing in multi-core CPU powerhouses. I've been playing with Octane Renderer and have been able to buy a graphics card for around £75 ( less than $100) that I slotted into my Media PC running Windows 7 and got physically based renders faster than any multi-core PC could do using the graphics card's 192 cores! Of course software has to be specially written to use the GPU and at the minute you're restricted to Nvidia cards (for Octane) but it's an intriguing possibility. I don't know much about this architecture so please dont think I'm speaking from an experts point of view but am just aware there are other possibities. if nothing else, you can be sure that if Apple are planning to retire the Pros, they will be citing credible reasons to justify it.

Lightwolf
05-09-2012, 03:12 AM
As I understand it, a registry database may work fine for a system initially but the more apps you install, the more it gets bloated and applications have to search through that ever increasing database size to get its settings.
If you look at actual benchmarks to check of a "bloated" registry really makes a difference you will find that... it doesn't.
One single little utility that's autostarted will use more time and ressources.
Most of those registry errors are just red herrings really, but "cleaners" seem to be a good way to make a buck.

Of course, a system of *nixy config files (that happily get shuffled around during OS updates) and OS specific plists is preferable. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

raymondtrace
05-09-2012, 09:50 AM
...inevitably things start to slow down with disk fragmentation...

Mac's, especially at pro level, require defragmentation as well. OS X's automatic defragmentation is only performed on small files. Large files still need to be sorted. ( http://www.coriolis-systems.com/iDefrag.php )

No computer is intuitive and inherently easier than another. They are all wonderful and they are all crap. Once you break from thinking that you have something unique on your desk, your mind is more able to jump to the next new shiny thing and use it with the same "intuition" you thought that you had with your last system. Anyone who has the brain cells to wrangle a program like LW is not going to have much trouble jumping to another platform. Enjoy the ride... and prepare to switch again to Linux in another couple years. :)

phillydee
05-09-2012, 11:13 AM
Interesting thread... I dunno if anyone's suggested this Tony3D but you can often save even more $$ by not going the Nvidia Quadro route and just buy a regular GTX card, if your OEM even offers that option.

Please correct me if I'm wrong -> For Lightwave, you'll get the same graphical OpenGL performance for far less $$, and you can even use GTX cards with Adobe's Mercury engine *even IF* the card is not "officially" listed as supported... a simple edit of the config file will make the engine see the graphics card (no problems here with my GTX 480 and Premiere Pro). The GTX 680 has just been released and it offers unreal performance for around 500$ if you can find a vendor with it in stock...

Sorry to hijack the Mac/PC discussion but just thought to throw my 2c in there about cost of building a PC with/without Quadros.

JonW
05-09-2012, 05:28 PM
Interesting thread... I dunno if anyone's suggested this Tony3D but you can often save even more $$ by not going the Nvidia Quadro route and just buy a regular GTX card, if your OEM even offers that option.

Please correct me if I'm wrong -> For Lightwave, you'll get the same graphical OpenGL performance for far less $$, and you can even use GTX cards with Adobe's Mercury engine *even IF* the card is not "officially" listed as supported... a simple edit of the config file will make the engine see the graphics card (no problems here with my GTX 480 and Premiere Pro). The GTX 680 has just been released and it offers unreal performance for around 500$ if you can find a vendor with it in stock...

Sorry to hijack the Mac/PC discussion but just thought to throw my 2c in there about cost of building a PC with/without Quadros.

It's a very good point. The big players with their work stations mostly use Quadros. What ever your budget is, if you build your own or use a small supplier you can get exactly the parts you want to save money. I'd be quite happy to put my old GTX280 in a new box as it still performs very well.

Get the key things now, CPU/s, MB & power supply etc, & you can swap & upgrade to SSD & graphics cards etc later when more funds are available. You can get a cheap case to save which is perfectly ok as well.

joelaff
05-09-2012, 05:56 PM
Quadros are pretty much a waste. The Geforce get updated quicker, the drivers get updated more often, and Geforce will have fewer problems with fewer pieces of software. Especially LW has historically always run faster on the Geforce line.

We tried Quadros for a few workstations. Big mistake. Problems with lots of programs, no better speed, twice the price. We have never looked back since going back to Geforce cards. Buy a new one every year... it's still cheaper than a Quadro every two.

Now perhaps for some Autodesk apps the Quadros might work a little better, but I am convinced this is just AD and nVidia in bed together to try to sell more Quadros.

joelaff
05-09-2012, 05:59 PM
And if you really want your windoze machine to run properly get rid of any and all third party "anti-virus" apps. Pretty much everythign other than the Windows built-in AV with Win7 is total garbage. Norton and Macaffee... terrible products that constantly nag you and slow do your machine quite a bit with their scanning, and other worthless junk.

Build your own machine and install a real, clean copy of Windows, without all the vendor supplied crapware that comes with machines you buy pre-built. It is like running a completely different OS without all that junk. I have rock solid WinXP64 boxes that are five years old... never re-installed, never had an issue. Same applies with Vista and Win7 (yes, Vista is actually a good OS... if you complain about Vista likely you don't know that those security warnings are a good thing... Win7 is better, true, but Vista is just fine.... 64 bit... Must use 64bit...)

JonW
05-09-2012, 06:40 PM
And if you really want your windoze machine to run properly get rid of any and all third party "anti-virus" apps. Pretty much everythign other than the Windows built-in AV with Win7 is total garbage. Norton and Macaffee... terrible products that constantly nag you and slow do your machine quite a bit with their scanning, and other worthless junk.

Build your own machine and install a real, clean copy of Windows, without all the vendor supplied crapware that comes with machines you buy pre-built. It is like running a completely different OS without all that junk. I have rock solid WinXP64 boxes that are five years old... never re-installed, never had an issue. Same applies with Vista and Win7 (yes, Vista is actually a good OS... if you complain about Vista likely you don't know that those security warnings are a good thing... Win7 is better, true, but Vista is just fine.... 64 bit... Must use 64bit...)

The large vendors put a stack of crap on the box. Also as said don't put any AV software on the box. Do your internet via your Mac.

Tony3d
05-09-2012, 08:34 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the input. What is this graphic card rendering thing all about? I understand it renders much faster than CPU rendering.

jasonwestmas
05-09-2012, 09:06 PM
I take the same philosophy with applications I buy and learn to use. It's an honorable thing to support the minority but sometimes it's a necessity to just use what is best at the time.

jasonwestmas
05-09-2012, 09:34 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the input. What is this graphic card rendering thing all about? I understand it renders much faster than CPU rendering.

well in a battle for bang for the buck, the cpu is going to raytrace faster in most 3d apps. Generally I think that is only because more research has been done with the CPU software rendering. One day the GPU will rule in a lot of cases but not today I think. However Cuda rendering can be pretty darn fast, you just have GPU memory limitations of course.

As Erikals and others have mentioned, sometimes it's just easier to go buy a new Video Card over buying a new CPU and mother board/ computer.

Rayek
05-09-2012, 10:36 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the input. What is this graphic card rendering thing all about? I understand it renders much faster than CPU rendering.

It depends on the application, but lately unbiased or partly unbiased renderers have been popping up that use the GPU to accelerate rendering up to 10 times or more compared to the CPU. Once you've experienced the render speed, it is hard to go back to CPU-only rendering.

The major drawback of GPU-only rendering: the scene size that can be rendered is limited by the graphic card's memory. Most consumer GPU have access to 1~2GB of memory, which is, at this moment, a bottleneck for your scene. And the OS already uses some of that video ram for the display, which means you cannot use the full video ram as it is.

However, hybrid render engines take care of this problem by dividing calculations between the CPU and GPU, thereby circumventing the limitations set by the GPU video memory. Only some of the render calculations are done in the GPU, so it is not nearly as fast as GPU only, but you do get quite a speed boost for 'nothing'.

Currently two API's are doing the rounds: CUDA (Nvidia) and OpenCL (open standard). CUDA is much more mature, hence, more used - but only available for Nvidia cards. Then again, OpenCL is improving rapidly, and Adobe and AMD are working together now to get OpenCL up to speed on Windows for CS6.

Some render engines now using GPU number crunching:
- Octane
- Luxrender
- Indigo
- Vray RT
- Cycles (Blender)
- Arion

Here are some more 'real-world' numbers (Luxmark v2.0, check my sig for the hardware):

Sala bench (medium complexity)
GPU only: 1784 samples/sec
CPU only: 423 samples/sec
GPU + CPU Hybrid: 1175 samples/sec

As you can tell, although you would expect the last test to be the fastest, this is simply not true due to the bottleneck of the CPU and GPU sending data back and forth. Still, having a more than twice as fast render by just adding a GPU is excellent, and much easier and less expensive than a CPU upgrade that would cost at least twice as much.

Oh, and most GPU render engines allow you to use as many GPU installed in your machine as it can hold. The speed boost is almost linear which results in almost real-time unbiased render results. Quite a spectacle to behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ1IRQTqMMY
Absolutely ridiculous :) Render farm on your desktop.

Though we have to be very careful comparing render engines and render speed. For example, it is said that for biased rendering (like ray tracing) GPUs are not really that useful.

JonW
05-10-2012, 01:17 AM
Although 8 GPUs is nice, the problem I see is the massive scenes we are setting up these days. At this stage I would rather spend the money on top end CPUs. & custom box, either a 3930/3960 or a dual 2687W box, it's not that expensive.

Tony3d
05-10-2012, 06:18 AM
It depends on the application, but lately unbiased or partly unbiased renderers have been popping up that use the GPU to accelerate rendering up to 10 times or more compared to the CPU. Once you've experienced the render speed, it is hard to go back to CPU-only rendering.

The major drawback of GPU-only rendering: the scene size that can be rendered is limited by the graphic card's memory. Most consumer GPU have access to 1~2GB of memory, which is, at this moment, a bottleneck for your scene. And the OS already uses some of that video ram for the display, which means you cannot use the full video ram as it is.

However, hybrid render engines take care of this problem by dividing calculations between the CPU and GPU, thereby circumventing the limitations set by the GPU video memory. Only some of the render calculations are done in the GPU, so it is not nearly as fast as GPU only, but you do get quite a speed boost for 'nothing'.

Currently two API's are doing the rounds: CUDA (Nvidia) and OpenCL (open standard). CUDA is much more mature, hence, more used - but only available for Nvidia cards. Then again, OpenCL is improving rapidly, and Adobe and AMD are working together now to get OpenCL up to speed on Windows for CS6.

Some render engines now using GPU number crunching:
- Octane
- Luxrender
- Indigo
- Vray RT
- Cycles (Blender)
- Arion

Here are some more 'real-world' numbers (Luxmark v2.0, check my sig for the hardware):

Sala bench (medium complexity)
GPU only: 1784 samples/sec
CPU only: 423 samples/sec
GPU + CPU Hybrid: 1175 samples/sec

As you can tell, although you would expect the last test to be the fastest, this is simply not true due to the bottleneck of the CPU and GPU sending data back and forth. Still, having a more than twice as fast render by just adding a GPU is excellent, and much easier and less expensive than a CPU upgrade that would cost at least twice as much.

Oh, and most GPU render engines allow you to use as many GPU installed in your machine as it can hold. The speed boost is almost linear which results in almost real-time unbiased render results. Quite a spectacle to behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ1IRQTqMMY
Absolutely ridiculous :) Render farm on your desktop.

Though we have to be very careful comparing render engines and render speed. For example, it is said that for biased rendering (like ray tracing) GPUs are not really that useful.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

kopperdrake
05-10-2012, 04:36 PM
Really didn't mean to start a OS war here. Just looking for options should I decide Apple does not have an offering for me. Naturally I would like to stay with Mac OS just because of all my software. Should Apple kill the Mac Pro, I really don't see anything in the line I would want. So, we'll have to see what happens by WWDC. If nothing is released by then, I'll have to take the leap. I would mainly be running Lightwave, and that's it maybe PhotoShop for textures. Can't be that bad.

Dude - if you feel the need to jump, don't panic. I use both, I don't really give an arse about the OS, both have nice bits, both have irritating bits. If you do decide to go with a PC, get it from a decent builder who has built professional systems before. I won't touch off the shelf systems as you never know what goes inside. I just know personally that I won't be buying another Mac for 3D work in the near future as the cost/performance compared to a Windows box just isn't there like it was four years ago, and like I said - the OS becomes so unimportant when you're inside your applications.

jasonwestmas
05-11-2012, 09:33 AM
I like Velocity Micro a lot. They build your stuff for you very nicely. Next to 0 headaches with this comp and I got it from them a year ago.

v1u1ant
08-30-2012, 09:19 PM
Cant believe that TOS was never mentioned...was great for CAD work, especially with the Mb expansion.:spam:

Rayek
08-30-2012, 09:52 PM
Cant believe that TOS was never mentioned...was great for CAD work, especially with the Mb expansion.:spam:

Oh come on! TOS did not even run Lightwave. Amiga is where it's at! :bowdown:
My A1000's 2.5mb expansion easily handles up to 8000 poly count scenes - quite high-end, that.