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thekho
10-23-2003, 05:21 PM
Hi, everyone

Have you seen this lightwave 8 feature information on the 3d world mag? So, i thought you may want to know about Lightwave 8 information.

I recieved it today and i read it about Lightwave 8. Its really interesting about new modeler.
They said "We're working closely with a number of Modeller powers users to improve the workflow and to make tool behaviours better match the expections and requirements of our users" And "Among other specifics will be an improved interactive move tool, new interactive smooth shift capabilities, new cutting tools, edge divison, and more"

I can't wait to see Lightwave 8 soon :cool:

Best,

Keddy

Kvaalen
10-23-2003, 05:30 PM
Hey, this is really cool!
I can't wait to get more info!

Thanks for shareing. :)

hrgiger
10-23-2003, 07:48 PM
Edge Division... are you sure it didn't say edge weighting?;)

Wade
10-23-2003, 08:13 PM
I hope that you are correct!:)

sketchyjay
10-23-2003, 08:28 PM
So does this mean Proton is free to spill the beans on the tools he's been hinting at?

Great news.

Jay

hrgiger
10-23-2003, 09:13 PM
And does it have something to do with this?

http://www.spinquad.com/

milkman
10-23-2003, 09:33 PM
woo! neato!
this spinquad thing intruiges me quite a bit

geoff3dnz
10-23-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
And does it have something to do with this?

http://www.spinquad.com/ :) How did you find that?

WizCraker
10-23-2003, 09:42 PM
interesting the logo looks strangely familar to Proton's Avatar, except it is blue.

SLAYER
10-23-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by geoff3dnz
:) How did you find that?

Scroll down and see Proton here:

http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=1348&page=2

WizCraker
10-23-2003, 09:47 PM
Thanks Slayer,

That would explain the logo.

SLAYER
10-23-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Thanks Slayer,

That would explain the logo.

Indeed.
It is quite interesting.

Maybe this is a new modeler developed from Proton as he is breaking away from Newtek like Peebler did to make MODO!

Just kidding of course!

Nemoid
10-24-2003, 01:09 AM
Proton talked about some new tools sometime ago, showing a photorealistic head made by himself, but didn't explained very much about the tools actually.
Just can't wait to know more...:D

tottebias
10-24-2003, 06:48 AM
Aargh. Proton needs to start talking :)

Exper
10-24-2003, 07:21 AM
Agree! ;)

Can we know something more?

Bye.

badllarma
10-24-2003, 09:56 AM
Yup got me 3Dworld today and I've read it and is sound really top!

wooohoooo
cannot wait now:D

Matt
10-24-2003, 10:00 AM
www.spinquad.com is just Proton's home page, nothing to do with LW8s release!

cresshead
10-24-2003, 10:03 AM
animated uv's and interactive move.smooth shift look enticing!

so modeler will have a good overhaul along with layout in lw 8...and they said they would def ship B4 2004....cool

steve g

Yog
10-24-2003, 10:33 AM
I really don't want to be one of those "glass half empty guys", but my first thoughts were :

Interactive move/smoothshift = David Ikeda's Power Tools, Super Translate and Super Smooth Shift.
Edge division = existing Add Edge plugin.

The cynic in me wonders if after a number of negative posts here about the lack of new modeller tools in LW8, that perhaps Newtek went out and licenced a few of the free plug-ins already out there so it could say "new features added" cough>magic bevel<cough, cough>band glue<cough.

AS Lee S. has already said, people who do a lot of modelling already have a lot of the free and comercial modelling plug-ins out there, so there isn't much room to improve in it's current incarnation.
I honestly believe that the only way for major improvements in Modeler is through a major overhaul in order to provide such things as edges as an intergral element type (like vertices and polys) and provide a more intuitive and dynamic selection type (if you've used Wings you know about how you can turn a poly selection into an edge selection, expand it, then turn it into a vertex selection, all on 3-4 keyboard clicks). And we have already been told that this release isn't a major Modeler overhaul.

Gui Lo
10-24-2003, 12:27 PM
Just a thought after hearing that Newtek are not talking about Modeler.

Is it possible for Newtek to use some coding or algorithms produced by Luxology for the Modo app?

This may be the deal that allowed Luxology to develop another 3d app while still keeping Newtek happy.

Like I said, just a thought.
Gui Lo

A Mejias
10-24-2003, 04:27 PM
Here we go...

;)

mattclary
10-24-2003, 05:43 PM
That actually crossed my mind a while back, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Tesselator
10-24-2003, 06:34 PM
.ed.

sketchyjay
10-24-2003, 06:58 PM
I may be wrong but they mentioned a few plugin programmers who joined them. Where any of them modeler plugin gurus?

That combined with workflow improvements has me hoping that they are making sure all the tools work as expected. i.e. bandsaw not killing the UVs, one bandsaw tool that does it all and other such stuff that would not count as mind blowing new features but stuff that would make us all very happy.

Jay

CB_3D
10-25-2003, 04:56 AM
Agreed.
And i hope to see some radical improvements in organic uv mapping.

retinajoy
10-25-2003, 06:41 AM
The 3D mag article also said that they are speeding up rendering which comes as good news.

cresshead
10-25-2003, 10:32 AM
yeah they [newtek] metioned memory management improvments and also antialiasing speed/quality if i remember it right...
it was all a little vague though so please don't read too much into it just yet!..they were hint's only....it may be better than that!

steve g

ikaruz
10-26-2003, 12:31 AM
Maybe Newtek just wanted to concentrate all the Press Releases and information of version 8 on the new CA tools and improvements in layout.

Just can't wait till its' out.

jin choung
10-26-2003, 01:12 AM
hey yog,

yeah, i agree with ya too... i really don't want to be a wet blanket either but i'm preparing myself for a big let down when it comes to modeler.

unless they're giving us edges, edge weighting for sds, and a comprehensive uv solution for sds, i have a feeling it will be minor tweaks at best and just grafted on free plugins at worst.

oh yah, and our interactive gizmo is ugly an unintuitive as all hell.

come on people, let's face lift the interface into the 21st century eh?

some RGB in the ui instead of that day glo green/blue would be nice.

oh yah, and snapping to a visible grid.

jin

p.s. god, i wonder how many times i have to repeat myself!!!

Matt
10-26-2003, 02:47 AM
when was this article done anyway? I remember seeing a little news snippet in a 3DWorld some time ago, but it didn't mention anything about the features you guys are talking about.

Can someone scan this article and post it, I'd love to read it!

Nemoid
10-26-2003, 03:41 AM
yap, I wnt to read it too, even if these kinda articles are often very partial. :D
about tools It would be great a good integration of some free plugs in Lw workflow, with some enhancements indeed. if Nt hired some of these plugs creators seem to me a good thing.

badllarma
10-26-2003, 11:44 AM
It's in the latest edition issue 45 pages "Horror FX Special" on pages 10 and 11 in the news desk. To post an copy of it would I guess break copyright issues but you can always buy it! Or if really short on funds just go into your local WH Smiths and have a read :D

cresshead
10-26-2003, 12:05 PM
the article is quite short and i think that the various posters have covered what was said in the magazine...it was more of a bunch of hints and in progress comments than any full on spec sheet for lightwave 8...so i'd expect to see more stuff than was written..they were trying to [the mag] come over as though they had some insider info...but in reality only had rumors and whispers.

steve g

SLAYER
10-26-2003, 12:25 PM
Where is and how do you get issue 45?
My latest is 43 and I expect tp get 44 today at my bookstore. 3dworldmag website shows issue 44 as the newest and latest?

Lamont
10-26-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by jin choung
unless they're giving us edges, edge weighting for sds, and a comprehensive uv solution for sds, i have a feeling it will be minor tweaks at best and just grafted on free plugins at worst.
...
p.s. god, i wonder how many times i have to repeat myself!!! Save time, make it your sig. ;)

I think after edges are implemented, the rest of the work can be put in Layout. I held off on buying KeyTrack because I have a feeling that something like that is comeing to LW8.

Also, a few more UV tools. I don't use the UV tools from LW much, I use the one made by that guy who posted in the LScript section. I hope NT looks at that. There also should be a pixel snap in the UV ports. And a option to pack them in better. Being able to adjust the U and the V size is great too. Because when map a head or something that doesn't fit in the U and V it's kinda annoying.

I know the Mac users may groan and moan a bit, but alternative viewport renderings would be great. Like DX and nVidia/ATI shader language...

jin choung
10-26-2003, 08:29 PM
yah,

there's one really cool tool in maya where if you do a planar projection of a head from the side so that you have the left and right side overlapping in uv space, there's a command that automatically SEPARATES overlapping polys in uv space!

lw's uv mapping is pretty darn good but just a bit more automation with pixel snapping and packing options would really polish it off. the ability to unweld uvs without having to unweld verts is still pretty high up on my list.

jin

mlinde
10-26-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Lamont
I know the Mac users may groan and moan a bit, but alternative viewport renderings would be great. Like DX and nVidia/ATI shader language...
Clarify please. I'm one of those Mac users, and I don't even know what you are asking for. Are you saying you want to render from a viewport other than the camera? Why is this a DirectX thing?

cresshead
10-27-2003, 02:04 AM
re:
Originally posted by Lamont
I know the Mac users may groan and moan a bit, but alternative viewport renderings would be great. Like DX and nVidia/ATI shader language...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Clarify please. I'm one of those Mac users, and I don't even know what you are asking for. Are you saying you want to render from a viewport other than the camera? Why is this a DirectX thing?


__________________


I think they are on about seeing your game shader in the viewports rather than having to export to the game engine your using to test the character/scene you are making...more about game production rather than "rendering" in max you can use pixel shaders and nvida shaders and see their results as you create your assets inside max..saves loads of time and gives you the game look rather than a simple open gl look...

steve g

Karmacop
10-27-2003, 04:24 AM
I'm sure Newtek will add open gl 1.5 support as soon as possible, meaning both mac and intel get shaders.

sketchyjay
10-27-2003, 05:35 AM
Cresshead: He is talking about the DirectX shader language that the game market is moving toward for coming games. Doom3, Half-life 2 etc. Directx is a component of windows.

So the inclusion of it would allow the PC users of LW to make game models and shade them inside of Lightwave instead of having to do it in another package bring it into the game to look at it then go back to tweak in LW then the other software and back to the game... See the reason people want this inside of the 3D packages, it would save alot of time. Max and Maya just added support for these into their software.

The shader language allows us have the game render fur on the fly. Or reflections, or bumpmapping or normal mapping the list goes on...

So we may still get it at some point. I have heard that they are adding in more of the Open GL FX and if they include the Open GL 1.5 (or is it 2.0 i get mixed up) it will have alot of the features that directx enjoys.

Jay

Matt
10-27-2003, 08:13 AM
sorry about the naff scan but here's the article from 3DWorld (I went and bought it)

Rahnem
10-27-2003, 08:36 AM
I hope they support Normal Mapping out of the box. This is the next big thing in game development. I know of four major game engines that will be using this technique extensively.

DaveW
10-27-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
I'm sure Newtek will add open gl 1.5 support as soon as possible, meaning both mac and intel get shaders.

I thought it still hadn't been finalized yet. Even if it has, that doesn't solve the game development problem. Writing the shaders twice doesn't seem like a good solution when apps like XSI, Maya, and Max have DX9 support.

Karmacop
10-27-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Rahnem
I hope they support Normal Mapping out of the box. This is the next big thing in game development. I know of four major game engines that will be using this technique extensively.

Why not use the normal mapper plugin? Or do you mean the ability to see normal maps in real time?


Originally posted by DaveW
I thought it still hadn't been finalized yet. Even if it has, that doesn't solve the game development problem. Writing the shaders twice doesn't seem like a good solution when apps like XSI, Maya, and Max have DX9 support.

Do XSI and Maya use DX9 for rendering or do they have some kind of interpreter? Either way there's programs that'll let you code for both at the same time ... I know, not a solution, but Lightwave running in D3d isn't an option ...

Rahnem
10-27-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Why not use the normal mapper plugin? Or do you mean the ability to see normal maps in real time?

I mean it would just be good if they supported it officially. Most game companies are hesitant to build tools for there engine based off unsupported plugins due to legal issues and what not.

hrgiger
10-27-2003, 09:47 AM
I'm sure that violates copyright law to reproduce that but thanks Matt...;)

Matt
10-27-2003, 10:01 AM
probably!

:eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

sketchyjay
10-27-2003, 11:39 AM
Well the one thing that has me thinking is more selection types... as in poly, vertex, edge and object?

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Jay

TSpyrison
10-27-2003, 12:21 PM
ummm... ok..

What would an interactive move tool do, that the one we have now doesn't?

:)

cresshead
10-27-2003, 12:40 PM
i would imagine that an interactive move tool would work with the numeric panel where currently you'd dialup a move to say 50mm then apply to "see" it move....whereas an interactive move you would see the move happen in the viewport as you dial up n down "before" you APPLY it....

steve g

jin choung
10-27-2003, 01:36 PM
ah,

but that kind of move would rely on an OBJECT move... but there is NO NOTION OF AN OBJECT IN MODELER!

i know, when i moved over from 3d studio v. 3, i thought it was wierd as hell that i had to select a part of my object and then do a 'select connected' to grab my object but that's the way modeler works.

and since there's no animation in modeler, it's unlikely that they'll add objects there....

but really, not having to select 'subobject' to start manipulating the mesh is one of the reasons why modeler is so fast for me.

so i would argue for edges but not objects.... imho.

jin

Matt
10-28-2003, 02:32 AM
Looks like the scan has disappeared into thin air, how strange! ;)

(Sorry moderators, didn't mean to over-step the mark! Thought it would be okay because it was about LightWave!)

:D

sketchyjay
10-28-2003, 06:05 AM
Jin: the software does not have to have the idea of objects or even edges. The programmer has to have it react as if it does. If there was a select object then it would do the equilent of a select connected when you click on any poly. Edges is the same way. it won't give you all the features you want but if it shows you edges and you select them and can then do the same features as if they were edges then we got what we wanted.

Now this is all wild fantasy since they haven't said anything about what the new selection types are. We just know that there are new ones. Yeah select object may be redundent since it is so fast to select an "object" with a click and a keystroke.

As for the interactive part I just dawned on me that the interactive tools in say wings3D show you what part you're over by making it highlight. Maybe that is what they are talking about. You see what you are about to do .

Jay

Chuck
10-28-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Matt
Looks like the scan has disappeared into thin air, how strange! ;)

(Sorry moderators, didn't mean to over-step the mark! Thought it would be okay seen as it was about LightWave!)

:D

Unfortunately the topic relative to location doesn't change copyright rules -- ;)

Matt
10-28-2003, 08:31 AM
:D

I can only claim ignorance, please forgive me Chuck!

hrgiger
10-28-2003, 08:34 AM
Thanks anyway for posting that Matt, I'm glad I got to read it before it was pulled. Now there's no need for me to even look for the magazine. I decided to stop buying 3DWorld a few months back. The pertinent info it contains certainly doesn't, for me anyway, justify the $14 for the magazine. I'll take Keyframe anyday.

Matt
10-28-2003, 08:46 AM
I paid 6GBP for it, can't say it was worth it this month, only bought it for the LW8 "review".

Glad you got to read it! :)

DaveW
10-28-2003, 01:13 PM
Do XSI and Maya use DX9 for rendering or do they have some kind of interpreter? Either way there's programs that'll let you code for both at the same time ... I know, not a solution, but Lightwave running in D3d isn't an option ...

I'm not sure about Maya, but XSI and 3ds Max use DX9. I don't understand why you think LW running D3d isn't an option. LW used to support it in the 5.x days.

I know CG lets you program for both API's at the same time, but I've heard it isn't quite powerful enough for some shaders. Maybe newer versions address those problems. How many developers are actually using it though? XSI and Max make a big deal about native support for DX9, that leads me to believe that there are a lot of developers that aren't using CG.

cresshead
10-28-2003, 01:40 PM
i had a chat with the editor of 3d world last week...well more of a rant!...saying that many of my students were unable to complete the max tutorials in many issues due to vital info not being in the tutorials...i told my students not to bother trying the tutorials anymore seeing as the writer didn't write all the steps needed in the mag or add them to the cdrom if there was a page space issue...

3d world "could" be a great mag it just need a shakeup and have some production value to it...it needs a workflow overhaul.

steve g

mlinde
10-28-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by DaveW
I'm not sure about Maya, but XSI and 3ds Max use DX9. I don't understand why you think LW running D3d isn't an option. LW used to support it in the 5.x days.
I would expect that Maya uses OpenGL. Since Alias used to be a subdivision of SGI, and OGL is the 3D language of SGI, and Maya is the only one of those apps that also runs on Macs, I would guess Maya uses OGL. In addition (unless I missed something) I don't think there is a version of DX9 for any flavor of Unix.

Oh, but now I am confused. XSI can run in Linux, but how does it access these DX9 routines there?

omeone
10-28-2003, 02:07 PM
Cresshead,
Until very recently, it was very long time since I had seen a good tutorial in 3DWorld mag, and I agree usually the magazine format and space issues should take most of the blame.
The point of my reply though, is to point out that in one of the recent issues the Worms-of-Art wrote a glass tutorial which brought the tutorial quality way up. It appeared to me that they were allowed extra space and a format change though. Which obviously confused the publishers cos they got the order of the tut steps wrong in the mag...

cresshead
10-28-2003, 02:38 PM
i missed the glass tutorial...mags have to be consistant otherwise they'll lose readers...they lost me quite a while back..only if they have a stunning cd on the cover do i think of buying it...not for the content of the mag anymore.

they have some work to do...so do other mags though..i'm not just pointing at 3d world..digit,computer arts and others need to raise their game to keep readers.

steve g

DaveW
10-28-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
Oh, but now I am confused. XSI can run in Linux, but how does it access these DX9 routines there?

It doesn't. XSI's DX9 support works the same way Lightwave used to do it; you choose which API to use. Max also lets you switch between OpenGL, Heidi, and DirectX. I assumed Maya does the same thing on the Windows version, but I couldn't find anything about it on their website. The Linux and OSX versions obviously wouldn't have DX9 as a display option.

Karmacop
10-28-2003, 04:38 PM
I said having direct x was not an option because Newtek would spend alot of development time adding something that only half the user base could possibly use, and would look and act exactly like lightwave does now for most people. I'd much rather them spend the time adding a feature all users can use. A good implementation of opengl 1.5 and a direct x interpreter would be time well spent, I'm not sure if it'd work though.

DaveW
10-28-2003, 06:30 PM
Even if only a few users can really take advantage of it, it'll go a long way to legitimizing LW in the game dev market. That potentially leads to more LW sales, which is good for all LW users. If a DX9 interpreter can get the job done without a big FPS penalty, then go for it. I don't know if it's possible or if it would be less of an effort than native DX9 support, but either way DX9 shaders need to be supported.

Karmacop
10-28-2003, 06:56 PM
How about this then; having a seperate directx window you could use in modeler. So modeler was still all opengl, but you could view your object and shader in a seperate window? I think this could be done with a plugin right now even.

Then in layout have a similar thing, and even include opengl and directx as rendering types along with wireframe, realistic etc.

That's my idea :\

spikey
10-29-2003, 08:02 AM
Actually that's not a bad idea. Viper-style Direct3D viewer window in Modeler would be real nice, with shaders and all. I'm all thumbs up for that. I'd imagine it can't be integrated without being a separate app that communicates w/ Modeler through a plugin or something..

Resident plugin gurus could perhaps chew on this and tell us if it's even possible? :)

mlinde
10-29-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
It doesn't. XSI's DX9 support works the same way Lightwave used to do it; you choose which API to use. Max also lets you switch between OpenGL, Heidi, and DirectX. I assumed Maya does the same thing on the Windows version, but I couldn't find anything about it on their website. The Linux and OSX versions obviously wouldn't have DX9 as a display option.
Thanks Dave. I had forgotten about the API switch. It's been a long time since I sat in front of a PC daily.

Original1
11-01-2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
i had a chat with the editor of 3d world last week...well more of a rant!...saying that many of my students were unable to complete the max tutorials in many issues due to vital info not being in the tutorials...i told my students not to bother trying the tutorials anymore seeing as the writer didn't write all the steps needed in the mag or add them to the cdrom if there was a page space issue...

3d world "could" be a great mag it just need a shakeup and have some production value to it...it needs a workflow overhaul.

steve g

There certainly seems to be a lack of Lightwave related stuff in recent issues, I may well cancel my sub at this rate.

Steve,

I am sure we met at Lee's Learning Lightwave in Bath, what sort of tutorials would your students find useful?