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View Full Version : About the time line in LW8



jack2538
10-22-2003, 07:02 AM
I saw the screen shot of Lw8 . And there are two time lines when you want to move the key frames ( like Keytrak) . I just wonder why not just put them together . Or just Switch them with hotkey when you need . Then you don't waste the operation space .

By the way , do anyone know that the new time line can do the copy key function ? Just like 3dmas ( you just hold the shift key and drag a key frame to a new position then you get another key with the same value ) If so , then it will be great !!

WilliamVaughan
10-22-2003, 08:17 AM
If you hold down the alt key it will copy the frame leave it there and drop the copy to where ever you drag it to :)

Exper
10-22-2003, 08:24 AM
Good news... day after day! ;)

Bye.

Dodgy
10-22-2003, 08:52 AM
Isn't this inconsistent with the graph editor? Shouldn't it be ctrl-drag to copy? Otherwise we're all gonna get very confused :)

jack2538
10-22-2003, 08:59 AM
Oh Yeh
I think so , it should be the same with Graph editor

papou
10-22-2003, 03:11 PM
Good news but i need to agree it must be ctrl key...
Don't u think so Prooton?

geoff3dnz
10-22-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Dodgy
Isn't this inconsistent with the graph editor? Shouldn't it be ctrl-drag to copy? Otherwise we're all gonna get very confused :) Well, to be exactly like the GE it should be ctrl-right drag to copy a key... maybe the right mouse button's already got something to do? ;)

badllarma
10-23-2003, 01:16 AM
You can always just remap your keyboard I would of thought:)

Exper
10-23-2003, 02:01 AM
Hopefully! ;)

Matt
10-23-2003, 03:13 AM
consistency is everything NewTek!

although technically speaking it should be the shift key if LW wanted to remain consistent with almost every other package on the planet, as they use the shift key to duplicate things!

I had to re-train my finger when I started using LightWave!

:)

just gives us _complete_ control over keyboard shortcuts that's what I say!

Dodgy
10-23-2003, 03:48 AM
This is one are where LW does fall down quite a bit. Consistency, consistency, consistency. Where things could match across several areas, they often don't. I'd like to see the grid in layout match more the grid in modeler, with the same snapping options for precision... I seem to remember it did used to snap, but that seems to have been broken in some version.

Exper
10-23-2003, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
I'd like to see the grid in layout match more the grid in modeler, with the same snapping options for precision... Consistency shuold be one of the major aims!

LW suffer of some "similar but different" features between Modeler and Layout and this behaviour expecially discourage new and potential users/customers! :(

The only solution is a complete rewrite which should include the integration between Modeler and Layout and a new and modern architecture (remove doubled stuffs, better memory managment, completely opened SDK... go on and on)!

Modeller & Layout integration in LW8??
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12428

Bye.

Karmacop
10-23-2003, 07:50 AM
Exactly Exper. I mean there's a move in modeler and a move in layout but thesee are two different tools. Only merging modeler and layout will make these the same tool and let both tools use the same keyboard shortcut :rolleyes:

Sorry Exper, not picking on you. Just tired of people asking for a rewrite that wont happen because it's not needed. I'm also sick of people in the feature request forum saying "we need a completely new renderer for 8" or "we need really great nurbs tools for 8" ... some sort of reality would be nice over there :P

Sorry .. :(

I agree integration would be nice, but I'd still want seperation like it is now, even if it is one app. Sharing the dll's would be the best option I guess, even though alot of that is done at the moment anyway ...

Dodgy
10-23-2003, 07:58 AM
I agree Karma, I don't see integration as the way to go just yet. I have had a few ideas along those lines, but I think the hassles are too much at the moment, and unless they're starting right now to rewrite it from scratch, I can't see it happening by 9 at the earliest. I think there's still some life in the old girl yet. Even realtime booleans, which people thought would need a rewrite for can be done with clipmaps and a shader..

jcool
10-23-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Matt
consistency is everything NewTek!

although technically speaking it should be the shift key if LW wanted to remain consistent with almost every other package on the planet, as they use the shift key to duplicate things!


Actually, Adobe software uses the Alt key, which would be the most useful thing to mirror.

Shift is usually used to constrain on an axis, which LW (modeler) uses Ctrl instead.. I always thought this was poor planning.

By the way Proton, can we see a screenshot of the dopesheet? ;)

(don't get me wrong, this timeline improvement looks nice... but it's no dopesheet)

Exper
10-23-2003, 08:21 AM
Karmacop...
read the Thread... many of us are asking for a rewrite but at the same time we are happy with the new [8] direction!
We simply hope in a better future... so... I'm not picking on you too! ;)

Dodgy...
I think intergation is actually the second aim; LW suffer of some lacks, I list them later if you want, that can be removed with lot of work... at this point... instead of spend a lot of time in updating some core parts it should be better a rewrite... again... IMHO!
It will require a lot of time, we all know, but NT could start to rewrite internally while developing [8.5]/[9]/[10]... new developer team seams clever and working really good!

There's a beautiful song which sing:
"My only mistake is I'm hoping!"

;)

Bye.

Matt
10-23-2003, 08:47 AM
jcool wrote: Actually, Adobe software uses the Alt key

Doh! I stand corrected!!! You think I'd know that using Illustrator and Photoshop day in day out!!!

:rolleyes:

Karmacop
10-23-2003, 09:35 AM
Exper,understand where you're coming from, but so many people ask for integration it's getting a bit tiring :p

I think Newtek is trying to do both at the same time though .. that is, rewrite the core (which can be done easily thanks to 6) while adding more features. Hopefully we'll get a more open/expandable lightwave while not waiting years for a new release. For proof I show the dynamics tab in lightwave 8. Obviously dynamics is a new plugin class. See, expanding the core while not needing to wait years ;)

WilliamVaughan
10-23-2003, 09:39 AM
Alt is also what macromedia uses...but ti doesn't mean that we are stuck with that...

jcool
10-23-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by proton
Alt is also what macromedia uses...but ti doesn't mean that we are stuck with that...

"Being stuck with it" is really the wrong view in this case. Standards are usually a good thing.

I can see where programmers want to make their programs different in the name of being better than the competition, but from a workflow standpoint, conformity is a big help. I jump in and out of a couple 3D packages and the Adobe Suite all day, and the more they function similarly, the easier it is for me.

Plus, this makes it easier for new users to understand the program, if they have experience somewhere else. (Witness Luxology's pitch about appealing to users of all packages through their configurable interface. No matter what you think of Luxology, their point is very valid. People like to use what they are comfortable with.)

Doug Nicola
10-23-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by jcool
By the way Proton, can we see a screenshot of the dopesheet? ;)

(don't get me wrong, this timeline improvement looks nice... but it's no dopesheet)

Yeah... dopesheet dopesheet! It's gotta be on the way soon, I hope, seeing as how proton said "we understand the importance of a dopesheet." That's a pretty clear statement of the importance of this feature. If not with 8 then soon after I believe.

I have a strong feeling that when it's in there it's going to be killer!

Proton, can you clue us in a wee bit more on the new timeline features, like compared to Keytrak? Key selection and movement on multiple items? Hierarchy-based selection? Selection sets? Insert time, delete time...etc? Change key type? If the new timeline is just grab keys and move them around, I would still use Keytrak instead.

Matt
10-23-2003, 11:02 AM
jcool wrote: Plus, this makes it easier for new users to understand the program, if they have experience somewhere else.

exactly!

:)

Exper
10-23-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
For proof I show the dynamics tab in lightwave 8. Obviously dynamics is a new plugin class. See, expanding the core while not needing to wait years ;) Karmacop...
yep... the new developer team is working really good right now... I'll order the upgrade to [8] as soon as possible! ;)

Again... they're expanding the core with new interesting stuffs...
but we're a little worry...
soon or later Lw's core will start to creak under the pressure of new features!

A complete rewrite is really important to prevent LW in beeing buried by itself and not collapsing!

I don't know if NT is already working in this direction.
We can only say: "Confiding!" ;)

Bye.

bloontz
10-23-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by proton
Alt is also what macromedia uses...but ti doesn't mean that we are stuck with that...

Adobe, Macromedia, and a lot of other companies use alt for drag copying because it was specified in the Apple interface guidelines as the key to use for that operation (actually it was the option key on a mac). It was a VERY good idea and should still be followed. I imagine MS has similar guidelines. It makes getting up to speed on an app so much easier when you can count on certain interface conventions.

jeanphi
10-25-2003, 05:27 AM
Will this tool be as powerfull as KetTrak?

Will you be able to strech keys time, change from linear to tcb or steped and add layers for keys?
For copy/cut/past keys, you use "x", "c", "v" like in modeler.
There are cool stuffs like creating selection sets of items, a button to display and affect selected item keys and all decendents items keys. It's so cool to affect bones keys , lights keys and objects keys at once, to move them, copy and past. There is a quick push/pull key for timing adjust...
In KeyTrak you can see rotations, positions and scales keys and switch to separate X, Y, Z channels (Split mode). You can see if it is linear, steped or tcb as well. It's very useful.
Will you be able to see morph keys, master channels keys, and all other envelops? This is what KeyTrak can't do.

We already have KeyTrak, I hope the new timeline tool will add something more than KeyTrak and will not be a "poor fake/copy".

hrgiger
10-25-2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Exper

Again... they're expanding the core with new interesting stuffs...
but we're a little worry...
soon or later Lw's core will start to creak under the pressure of new features!

A complete rewrite is really important to prevent LW in beeing buried by itself and not collapsing!

Bye.

I see you asking for this all the time Exper. I was curious, do you know anything about programming? This isn't an attack, I was just wondering.
I'm just not sure that LW absolutely needs a rewrite. Maybe there's a solution to bringing more plug-ins into the core and integrating modeler's tools and Layouts tools without integrating the two programs, maybe not. However, I guess what I'd be interested to know is how is LW's core going to "creak under the pressure" of new features. I'm not sure that LW is in fear of collapsing.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you have some informed knowledge of the Lightwave program in those terms, I'd really like to hear them.

Karmacop
10-25-2003, 08:48 AM
Well from what I can tell by looking at my lightwave directory, all of the 'core tools' are just external plugins anyway. Even things like the geometry core (which controls all of the math etc) is external. All layout and modeler do is set up how they view things etc. This means that to merge modeler and layout all they really need to do is create a single program that sets up this viewing and how things are set out etc .... if I'm wrong someone please tell me :p

Exper
10-28-2003, 02:34 AM
hrgiger...
yes I'm not strictly what you can call a "Professional Developer" but I know about programming and I've developed in the past! ;)

I'm sorry about misunderstanding... I never said that LW absolutely needs a rewrite but it should provide some benefits and I listed them a lot of times!

Then looking in other Threads I've seen something interesting:
"We've also added numerous new features to our SDK..." and "memory managnement during rendering"
so they're working already on the core!
GOOD! :p

I've already said many many times, and probably I was one of the first, that new developer team is working really well and in a good direction!

Cheers! ;)

Bye.

Dodgy
10-28-2003, 02:58 AM
Yeah, it certainly seems they're trying to get to the roots of some of the problems LW suffered from, while buying in some plugins to help boost the feature count and keep everyone happy. I think after this release (which isn't just bought in plugins!) we'll start to see a lot more changes to LW...