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biliousfrog
02-20-2012, 11:54 AM
If you're remotely concerned about the 'F' word then I'd advise against reading, however, it sums up the piracy problem quite nicely - aimed at the music/movie industry but is equally relevant to the software industry and caused some serious flashbacks to software purchases I've made from certain 3D application developers...mentioning no names.

http://mattgemmell.com/2012/02/17/the-piracy-threshold/

Matt
02-20-2012, 12:08 PM
I agree entirely.

tischbein3
02-20-2012, 01:35 PM
Sorry but by reading articles like these, the picture a little green couch sitting consumer monster, crying for getting "more" even "cheaper" stuffed into its throat, comes into my mind. A monster, wich does not even realise that he has actually lost his taste by overconsumption.

Especially as for music, I don't a share absolutely no grain of sympathy with the author of this article. There good alternatives (free or cheap) out there, once you search for them and stop to expect that those are served to you on a silver plate.
And yes they do have imperfections, and the stuff you really like is rare, and you have to digg through a lot of "crap" before finding it. But it does exists.

And again, sorry if this sounds harsh, and please don't take it personally, I was on the same path a long time ago, but there a lot of artists / content creators out there wich only expect, _and derserve_ the little attention span you need to read the article linked above.

(And no... this is no call to go completly "off-road", but during the process you actually start to see the "overpriced stuff" with very different eyes.)

shrox
02-20-2012, 01:43 PM
What do you think about DRM?

biliousfrog
02-20-2012, 01:46 PM
I don't really understand what you're trying to say tischbien. I'm curious whether you even read the article because it seems pretty much identical to what musicians, actors, directors and consumers have been saying for a long time. Distribution methods and audiences have changed but the record companies, movie studios and software developers haven't.

tischbein3
02-20-2012, 03:14 PM
What do you think about DRM?
drm as the meaning as copyright projection ? forget it, it never worked out, and it won't work out in future.

But I do actually start to really wish for a more reliable method to verify if a work distributed under a licence such as cc, falls actually under these terms. (Or to have a way to backtrack wich licence the content was actually distributed.).



Distribution methods and audiences have changed but the record companies, movie studios and software developers haven't.
They can't. They can't kill their own established distribution food chain, not until they are assured they will reach the same amount of paying customers in a different way: Thats whats acta / sopa / and drm is (imho) mostly about.



I don't really understand what you're trying to say tischbien.
It makes me angry, seeing people complaining about price, drm and outdated distribution, and using it as a justification to copy...knowing, by doing so, they actually (indirectly) support the content industries strategy:
Piracy helps to monopolise software, and upholds attention to established products / artists.
If you really want to change something, ignore them, search for alternatives and use those. Even if they are 2nd class in quality, it makes much more sense and will have a much greater impact in longterm.


(edit: amen :) )

Amurrell
02-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Of course there are those that suffer from piracy on music, like the one time owner of this house.... http://swamplot.com/for-sale-in-san-leon-dusty-hill-estate/2007-09-05/

GregMalick
02-20-2012, 03:33 PM
I thought I would throw in my two cents:

Back when I was in a band, royalties on records was only a few cents. That's not much for that small group of talented people that actually put their blood sweat & tears into creating the music (engineers included). So those items are indeed drastically over priced.

Movies seem a different story, especially since hundreds of people contribute and DVD's seem to be released within weeks of general release. If the prices were dropped below the actual theater admittance prices, I'm not sure movies would sell enough to break even. I for one would more deeply consider waiting a few weeks on iffy movies if the cost dropped from $6.50 to $1.00

Software is another story - especially 3D software. I'm just not convinced there is a big enough market to sustain the number of person-hours required to create & test software (no moaning regarding "testing" - please). People argue that LW doesn't have Realflow quality fluid simulation because they don't have an army (or squad) of programmers to dedicate to that work. I agree. If it only took 1 person a couple weeks to knock that out, I'm sure we'd have it. Then again Turbulence seems to be put together by a single person - but that's not a cheap plugin.

My point is that this is a complex issue which isn't solved by such a simple argument.




One other point: I love Luxology's scheme. Their software isn't cheap - but I can download anything I've purchased at anytime (all previous versions & content & training). And they trust that I won't run it on more than one machine at a time.
It's a model that I wish NewTek would seriously consider.

Dexter2999
02-20-2012, 03:36 PM
related article
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-02-17/news/31071209_1_dvds-internet-piracy-pirating

kopperdrake
02-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Add me for agreement. I'd also like to add the ridiculous wages paid to the big name actors, which has become the norm as they 'pull in' the money, according to their agents. Well the big news is that the money just isn't there any more. For fear of getting into a much bigger arena, many people (actors/sportsmen/bankers etc) have become greedy and fat, through no direct fault of their own ("because you're *worth* it, really you are") whilst the economies have been able to support these wages. The middlemen in each of the cases - agents, distributors, advisors and so on - have received their cut from each deal. The reality check is that the world has changed. Seriously changed. I'm never for diddling an artist out of his or her worth, but when people start thinking they're worth oh-so-much-more that it becomes obscene in the eyes of the majority, then you must seriously question the ethics behind the money pyramid. For example, I haven't seen the latest Sherlock Holmes film - in no small part to a comment I heard in a passing interview with Guy Ritchie when he was asked 'why make a sequel'? His parting shot was something along the lines of 'and it'll make me a lot of money'. To be clear - I am talking of 'a lot of money' in terms of what I think is obscenely rich, so rich you have lost focus on reality. We will all have our definition of 'obscenely rich', and so it should be. If piracy goes up beyond that which the skint teenagers and criminals could manage on their own, then that could mean the money-making system is no longer valid, enough people are thinking 'hold on - this is too much'.

Dexter2999
02-20-2012, 03:53 PM
Been complaining about "double dipping" for years. When talent takes $20 million up front and demands points from revenue...

The "points" were originally designed as a process whereby talent basically wagered their skills in a production that couldn't otherwise afford them. "You can't afford $500,000? Tell you what, I'll do the movie for $75,000 but I get a percentage." (These aren't the actuall numbers but are probably close as points deals originated with John Ford in the 50s.)
Jack Nicholson did the same thing with BATMAN. (Here is where greed kicks in because it is said that his deal included points on sequels weather he appeared in them or not.)
But later, no one is waiving anything up front. There is no gamble. It is just more and more.

And soon I believe it will all come tumbling down as Hollywood and movies can't compete with home cinema. And no amount of DRM is going to stop piracy.



Add me for agreement. I'd also like to add the ridiculous wages paid to the big name actors, which has become the norm as they 'pull in' the money, according to their agents. Well the big news is that the money just isn't there any more. For fear of getting into a much bigger arena, many people (actors/sportsmen/bankers etc) have become greedy and fat, through no direct fault of their own ("because you're *worth* it, really you are") whilst the economies have been able to support these wages. The middlemen in each of the cases - agents, distributors, advisors and so on - have received their cut from each deal. The reality check is that the world has changed. Seriously changed. I'm never for diddling an artist out of his or her worth, but when people start thinking they're worth oh-so-much-more that it becomes obscene in the eyes of the majority, then you must seriously question the ethics behind the money pyramid. For example, I haven't seen the latest Sherlock Holmes film - in no small part to a comment I heard in a passing interview with Guy Ritchie when he was asked 'why make a sequel'? His parting shot was something along the lines of 'and it'll make me a lot of money'. To be clear - I am talking of 'a lot of money' in terms of what I think is obscenely rich, so rich you have lost focus on reality. We will all have our definition of 'obscenely rich', and so it should be. If piracy goes up beyond that which the skint teenagers and criminals could manage on their own, then that could mean the money-making system is no longer valid, enough people are thinking 'hold on - this is too much'.

souzou
02-20-2012, 05:26 PM
I agree with tischbien on this, and to be honest I disagree with the author of the article. IMHO I think people that think like him are the minority, and the majority of people that pirate couldn't care less if it costs £2 or £20 in the shops, or whether it has DRM or not - I think they would pirate anyway, because (a) it is easy to do and (b) there are almost no consequences to themselves. Why pay for something when you can just download it for free, right?

There is a reason many shops have security guards, CCTV cameras, undercover agents and radio tags/alarms.

Eroneouse
02-20-2012, 05:55 PM
I can see from studio / developer point of view the " need " for some kind of DRM they see it mostly as a way to protect thier investment of time and cash but also I can see that the " need " for DRM is at best silly if the object of desire is available in a digital format then the DRM is stripped off and the digital investment is available for anyone pretty much to grab as they wish.

DRM at worst hurts the industry it is supposed to protect as an example I myself bought empire total war the game but due to some stupid error with steam could not get the game to run. Now I am banned from steam for voiceing my displeasure with thier system and had to look at other avenues to get my bought and payed for game to run. The result is steam can suck it big time and I now have a game that runs with no hickups at all. Every game I buy in future I will read the box if steam is mentioned then it goes back on the shelf its as simple as that.

Similar story with Spore from EA, due to thier DRM I DL alternative copys of the game as needed from elsewhere and use my paid for key to make it work < on my machine only I might add > simply because they would have me pay again and again to DL a copy of a game I already paid for once.

To my mind if a game / film / music / software product is worth haveing then it is worth paying for as the guys who created it deserve to be payed for thier investment. If it is not worth paying for then it is not worth haveing in the first place.

DRM is a double edged sword, on one hand the people who control DRM products and im talking now of the guys who code the actual DRM stuff not the stuff its applied to are just sucking money from the guys/gals who really deserve those bucks and thus just help hike the price up to a point where people reach that what the heck point lets just DL it from X torrent site and get a crack file for that DRM system. DRM does not work on people who would not pay for the product in the first place and lets face it those are the people who will DL the product anyway.

For anyone who believes in the concept of " if its good enough to have then its good enough to pay for " DRM is just another pain in the *** to deal with. for everyone who does not respect that philosophy then DRM matters not as there is always a crack file to wipe out the DRM codeing.

Just google " crack file " and see how many hits you get for god knows how much digital products. DRM does not work I can not say it enough. Just googled crack file myself and got 299.000.000 hits in less than a second if that does not say it all then I do not know what does.

Edit - Souzou if that was the case I would have a cracked version of my fave 3D animation proggy I am not a pro I use it for hobby not work but I payed £602 sterling to buy a copy of my hobby software because its good enough to pay for as it is worth haveing. My good friend next door would never pay £602 sterling for any piece of software no matter how he felt about it so you can not tar everyone with the same brush my friend. sorry yes just reread your post, your not tarring everyone with the same brush my bad.

erikals
02-20-2012, 09:54 PM
in a way piracy is good i guess, the only problem is that the balance is off.
(poor artists / smaller companies get ripped off)

but why can't the big guys just sell me a cheaper downloadable mp4 movie?
money saved > no transport, no storage, no printing, no DVD, just the download> done.

majority wouldn't bother to pirate anymore.

Aaargh! http://www.piratesonlineforums.com/forums/images/smilies/pirates/pirate2wn0.gif

erikals
02-20-2012, 09:59 PM
 
...and when you finally buy a DVD, you get this sh**,... genius... ꞉P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5SmrHNWhak

 

BigHache
02-20-2012, 11:15 PM
It makes me angry, seeing people complaining about price, drm and outdated distribution, and using it as a justification to copy...

I didn't get from the OP article that was the intended justification, although I think that is a valid point and one that definitely exists rampantly. I actually think all your points and everyone else are very valid.

I have sought different solutions to the mainstream music industry, because of how that industry has expressed itself. Mainly from the suit the RIAA brought against the woman from Minnesota. I won't buy another major label album ever again (no, I won't download one either). The RIAA made examples of select individuals by pinning them for 100% blame of the actions of the masses. IMO that's just uncalled for.

I half agree with the author of that article, the industries are partly responsible for piracy. The other part, there are people that will pirate just because they can. But those people were probably never going to buy the product in the first place.

If everyone would just pirate because they can, then there wouldn't be original discs of Mac OS X on ebay right now with bids. Yup, no serial, no DRM, straight up unprotected discs people are will to pay money for.


but why can't the big guys just sell me a cheaper downloadable mp4 movie?

Here's where I think greed comes in: they don't want to. I think the economics have shifted but they're comfortable making the money have been and see no reason to bring in less.

This is what I think happened to Blockbuster Video. The economics of the video rental industry shifted and Blockbuster didn't. Late fees were a good portion of their business model. Remember their "No more late fees" campaign? Yeah that was a straight up LIE. No more actual late fees meant less money in their bottom line, coupled with cheaper competition, they couldn't hang. The difference being there's not really direct competition to Hollywood so I don't see Hollywood losing business.




...and when you finally buy a DVD, you get this sh**,... genius... ꞉P

Yeah I never understood that nonsense. I already paid for this, why are you trying to convince me to pay for it???

erikals
02-20-2012, 11:29 PM
if Universal, 20th Century, etc made movies available for download, Indies would do the same, and "steal" market shares by offering low prices / good marketing. Might even threaten mill-$-dollar actors like Depp in the end as things would speed up, making it easier for newbies to enter the game and compete.

i guess it wouldn't be a good deal for the big guys in the end.

maybe YouTube rentals could be the start to a change... or the new Torrent TV.
 

Dexter2999
02-20-2012, 11:44 PM
The difference being there's not really direct competition to Hollywood so I don't see Hollywood losing business.

Not so much about competition with Hollywood. Blockbuster bought HUGE numbers of discs for their nation-wide chain. They are/were very large chunk of profit for Hollywood.

Keeping in mind that Hollywood accounting chalks up the box office revenue as a break even for production and as sort of a promotion for the DVD sales and a springboard for negotiating ancillary market prices.

They even negotiated to have discs in stores for like 30 days before they would be available online. Because who wants to drive down to rent a disc when they can stream it online?

But the delay actually feeds the piracy issue, which they didn't forsee. A very large portion of piracy is from the public's desire for "instant gratification". (This has also been discussed as the single largest contributor to piracy in overseas markets where they don't want to wait three to six months for foreign release of current box office hits.)

With systems of digital distribution and online sales like iTunes, the industry is moving towards erradicating a large portion of piracy.

There are others who pirate because they just don't have money. A friend at work said his daughter was telling his wife, "We're all going over to Jennifer's house to watch (insert popular movie title here) because we don't have enough money for all eight of us to get in at the movies."

Yet another motivator is young people torrenting movies (not only that they can't afford) that they can't get into without an adult.

I buy tons of discs, not new, but when the demand goes down and the price drops (many of them used). I don't feel guilty at all ripping them to play on my media center, but according to the law I'm breaking the copyright laws by not purchasing digital copies (that are most always diminished in quality with higher compression geared towards mobile devices.)

The market is at a divergence that I equate directly to the VHS/BETA war. THe choice is highest quality vs cheaper and "good enough". Blu-ray is the higher quality choice, but the public is leaning towards streaming services with diminished quality on what will be tighter bandwidths that are in competing households.

Gotta stop now before I go into full rant mode.

Cryonic
02-21-2012, 12:03 AM
I buy tons of discs, not new, but when the demand goes down and the price drops (many of them used). I don't feel guilty at all ripping them to play on my media center, but according to the law I'm breaking the copyright laws by not purchasing digital copies (that are most always diminished in quality with higher compression geared towards mobile devices.)

It has been ruled that space and time shifting of material that you own (or have legitimate access to like cable programs when you have cable TV) is legal. If you were to just raw copy the DVD to your hard drive without attempting to decrypt the files (via DeCSS or other method), then you wouldn't be violating any laws since you are doing it to your own copy for your own use.

The joke is, DeCSS isn't needed to pirate movies. Just burn exact copies of the discs they sell with the encryption still in place and DVD players will happily play it back without realizing its a copy and not an original, heheh.

biliousfrog
02-21-2012, 02:15 AM
drm as the meaning as copyright projection ? forget it, it never worked out, and it won't work out in future.

But I do actually start to really wish for a more reliable method to verify if a work distributed under a licence such as cc, falls actually under these terms. (Or to have a way to backtrack wich licence the content was actually distributed.).



They can't. They can't kill their own established distribution food chain, not until they are assured they will reach the same amount of paying customers in a different way: Thats whats acta / sopa / and drm is (imho) mostly about.


It makes me angry, seeing people complaining about price, drm and outdated distribution, and using it as a justification to copy...knowing, by doing so, they actually (indirectly) support the content industries strategy:
Piracy helps to monopolise software, and upholds attention to established products / artists.
If you really want to change something, ignore them, search for alternatives and use those. Even if they are 2nd class in quality, it makes much more sense and will have a much greater impact in longterm.


(edit: amen :) )

I'm not sure that you got the argument put forward by the article. It doesn't condone piracy, it states that piracy is a fact of life now that content is freely available online so content creators and distributors should look at ways to make the legal option easier.

This sums it up quite well I think: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

Most people want to do the right thing but, in the case of music, movie and software distribution, the legal way is fraught with more complications and restrictions than the illegal way. Just shaking a finger and saying that piracy is wrong doesn't fix anything, it happens and more people are going the illegal download route because it is easier, not because it is cheaper.

I'll give you a great, personal example. I generally buy CD's and burn to MP3's because I can't see the point in paying for a lower quality version which is restricted by DRM and I like having a physical copy with the artwork. The problem is that some CD's also have DRM so playing in a computer can be difficult let alone trying to burn to MP3. What I do instead is download a pirated copy of the MP3's because it is easier, faster and more convenient. I'm from the generation that grew up with vinyl, cassettes and CD's so I appreciate the physical media, however, anyone under the age of 25 is less likely to care about that and will go straight for the download...are they going to go for the legal option or the illegal option? It's not likely to be a question of cost or morals which drives the decision, it will likely be down to convenience.

colkai
02-21-2012, 02:22 AM
 
...and when you finally buy a DVD, you get this sh**,... genius... ꞉P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5SmrHNWhak

 

Aye, it yanks my chain that, having paid for the DVD, you get subjected to ages of copyright info that you cannot skip through. Those who pirate the video simply avoid it. :foreheads

If I paid for it, why are you pestering me about piracy being a crime? :twak:

50one
02-21-2012, 03:38 AM
Well, the whole system is just effd up,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og1xiUEG0eE&sns=em

I understand the both parties to be fair, but I think it's more about music and entertainment industry, software developers can work on their own, however you need to be sure there is a market for your app if you want go with the pound land strategy...

probiner
02-21-2012, 04:37 AM
but I think it's more about music and entertainment industry...

The adult entertainment industry is one that poses some questions for me, as a way to look to these issues from another perspective:

___Have they taken any position? Why aren't they backing them? (at least I don't recall seeing a name on those bill supporters list that would be from it).
___Aren't they like the rest of the film and music industry seeing authoral content being freely distributed without legal revenue? I don't know any numbers, but I guess one could imagine the share of the overall internet traffic dedicated to it.

___ Could it be that it's because that even though they might be losing some, the free stuff is advertisement, they still make a big buck and make their costumers happy? (pun away :D) Or that they think it's actually some power that would shut them down if the government starts to get too moral with it's new Internet Zapper Gun? Or is it that they wouldn't fit well as victims of piracy along the others to present these laws?

Software is another section I haven't heard of.

Cheers

alexos
02-21-2012, 04:41 AM
...Most people want to do the right thing but, in the case of music, movie and software distribution, the legal way is fraught with more complications and restrictions than the illegal way.


Not sure about that. To me it's the other way round actually, because I'd rather buy a BD movie than download it; I might be a dinosaur, but I generally want the extra content and I find the idea of downloading 10+ gigs of stuff appalling. But I know a lot of people who will download pretty much anything - thousands of songs, hundreds of movies - just because they're available. They hear a song they like and download the author's entire discography, they read a review for a movie and immediately grab it - no matter if it's a Russian tragedy and they're Michael Bay fans. Because it might as well be true that people generally want to do the right thing, but it's certainly very true that most people are simply greedy.

ADP.

biliousfrog
02-21-2012, 05:01 AM
Not sure about that. To me it's the other way round actually, because I'd rather buy a BD movie than download it; I might be a dinosaur, but I generally want the extra content and I find the idea of downloading 10+ gigs of stuff appalling. But I know a lot of people who will download pretty much anything - thousands of songs, hundreds of movies - just because they're available. They hear a song they like and download the author's entire discography, they read a review for a movie and immediately grab it - no matter if it's a Russian tragedy and they're Michael Bay fans. Because it might as well be true that people generally want to do the right thing, but it's certainly very true that most people are simply greedy.

ADP.

That is kinda the point though. People's habits have changed and, when they can freely get any film, music, tv show, software application or book, what are publishers going to do to make consumers want to pay for it? Taking a holier than thou attitude towards people that download pirated material isn't going to change anything, they need to be shown something of greater value which they are willing to pay for.

If we look at the music industry. Artists used to tour to promote their albums. Albums no longer make much money so they use the album to promote the tour where they can sell merchandising and get a greater return on ticket sales. Why will people spend money on a live concert but not on an album?...because you can't download that experience for free.

For me, the physical media, the artwork, the packaging, the bonus material...they all encourage me to pay for CD's, DVD's and Bluray's. With software it generally comes down to tech/customer support. Many people aren't bothered by those things which makes the decision to jump through hoops with DRM, licencing issues, copyright notices, postage charges etc. much less appealing than downloading quickly, for free, with no hassles.

Waves of light
02-21-2012, 06:27 AM
Aye, it yanks my chain that, having paid for the DVD, you get subjected to ages of copyright info that you cannot skip through. Those who pirate the video simply avoid it. :foreheads

If I paid for it, why are you pestering me about piracy being a crime? :twak:

Why not rip all your purchased DVDs and stick them on a NAS drive?

I've done that for most of our collection, and it just makes life so much easier. Plus you can take out the trailers and the other stuff and get straight to the movie.

I've noticed that some DVDs come with 'portable' version, but does that come with all the trailers still?

HenrikSkoglund
02-21-2012, 06:57 AM
Not to be taken too seriously of course but gives an insight :)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

jasonwestmas
02-21-2012, 07:34 AM
I'm not sure hijacking software is ever a good idea. Just leads to more red tape and confinement for our more honest way of life.

wrench
02-21-2012, 07:39 AM
And exaggerating the anti-piracy ad for comic effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg. Personally, I guess I'm one of the saps who buys this stuff. We have over 600 DVD/BRD titles in our collection and come Christmas or birthdays there is usually more to add. There is certainly truth to the suggestion that those that spend more on media are also bigger pirates (hunting out what they like so they can they buy it). Gawd knows how much money I've given Goerge Lucas for his endless recycling...

B

Dexter2999
02-21-2012, 10:12 AM
I've noticed that some DVDs come with 'portable' version, but does that come with all the trailers still?

No, the few I have bothered to download are just the movie. (again highly compressed.)

What I am even more concerned with is the trend to "Ultraviolet" copies which aren't downloadable copies at all but streaming only versions. I don't think this is a "big picture" view at all. It is just another attempt to stop piracy by keeping digital copies out of the hands of the public so they can't strip it of DRM. It is just another extension of the move to HDMI which was only to plug the analog hole and incorporate HDCP. (I cannot be convinced that 1080P was impossible via analog but if manufacturers incorporated as such then there would be no motivation to move people over to HDMI so they could "lock" the system down in an attempt to stop people from copying media.)

shrox
02-21-2012, 10:13 AM
I like a disc with a case. I just do.

jasonwestmas
02-21-2012, 10:19 AM
I just want a box for legal reasons. ^.^ Anybody can buy something but I want proof (as much proof as possible anyway) of something as being the real deal.

Rayek
02-22-2012, 11:23 AM
There *is* another way.

This, and for other reasons, is why I have been shifting my workflow to open source software where I can. I have grown weary and tired of the strategies employed by most larger software publishers to keep revenues ever more increasing, and the freedom I feel each time I fire up Blender, Inkscape, Scribus, MyPaint, Krita, Libre Office, LightWorks, and so forth, is exhilarating.

In the past I was always fretting over the next upkeep of all my software, and the newest version would (mostly) be underwhelming in new features. I just could not afford it anymore as a one-man show freelancer, but felt I had to to keep up with the industry.

Of course, that's a feeling most commercial vendors just love to instill in their customers... Pixologic is one of the few that does not ask for costly upkeeps.

Never have I regretted this decision to leave the rat race - now I have access to great software, even greater communities, and I also give back to that same community by *sharing* models, scripts, etc. It's a very different feeling I have now compared to 'before' - so much more relaxing.

It is a completely different concept, not based on monetary greed, but on a concept of freely sharing, and that is why companies like Autodesk have trouble dealing with it.

And this is also happening in all other areas of entertainment. Bands sharing their music for free, film makers sharing their work...

Call me idealistic and hopelessly out-of-touch with 'reality', but I would like to see a future where money does not play a major part in our lives anymore. Or at least, it is no longer seen as a goal, and put back in its original role, without banks and other parasites. Anyway, that's a different story.

SBowie
02-22-2012, 12:47 PM
Call me idealistic and hopelessly out-of-touch with 'reality', but I would like to see a future where money does not play a major part in our lives anymore.I'm already pretty much living in your future ... not on purpose, mind you. ;)

BigHache
02-22-2012, 02:21 PM
Blockbuster bought HUGE numbers of discs for their nation-wide chain. They are/were very large chunk of profit for Hollywood.

Then I'm to assume that with the demise of Blockbuster's retail stores and that profit gone, we the consumers will be expected to pick up that slack.


They even negotiated to have discs in stores for like 30 days before they would be available online. Because who wants to drive down to rent a disc when they can stream it online?

This is still going on with Blockbuster vs. Redbox and Netflix. It makes absolutely no sense to the customer and the customer doesn't want to hear why they can't buy what they want.


I've noticed that some DVDs come with 'portable' version, but does that come with all the trailers still?

By portable do you mean the digital copy? I've bought a few BD discs that have the digital copy and it's a half-arsed system if I've ever seen one. First you get an authorization code, that has an expiration date! My BD doesn't expire, why should this? But it's really big of them to give you the option of using the code for Windows Media Player or iTunes. Select iTunes and it takes you to the iTunes store and downloads it. Why did you bother to give me a physical disc with the digital copy if I have to now download it?!?! Oh, that disc is ONLY for Windows Media Player. Lame.

They're not interested in making it convenient for paying customers. I do love the FBI warnings on purchased discs. Reminds me of the joke of the sign: No dogs allowed, seeing eye dogs only -- who is this sign for?

colkai
02-23-2012, 03:25 AM
I'm already pretty much living in your future ... not on purpose, mind you. ;)

Funny, I thought you were just on another planet Steve. ;) :D

50one
02-23-2012, 03:43 AM
I think we could compare the Lightwave as to DVD you can get at the moment when it comes to the watermarking and other stuff that is there for paying customers.

People who don't pay don't have the problems with dongle and the registration process is straightforward - install the software and done.

Been kinda annoyed by the fact that I can't use the trial becasue the registration process is not really straight forward - yeah call me idiot for picking the 'Lightwave 3d' from the drop down, but after the second try and picking the correct one the trial still doesn't work..

Anyway the dongle should be scraped and file license introduced / easy to instal, just copy to folder and done and don't tell me about the dongle securing the product, casue it is clearly not, so what the point of paying for it Newtek?

Also looking at the gallery at Newtek page and speaking to certain person and if the person speaks truth than Newtek knows that He/She is using the cracked version of the software, because he cannot afford - fair enough but c'mon that shouldn't be encouraged in any circumstances - as it is the same as the whole debacle of buying pirated music or DVDs/ games cause they are to expensive so people can't afford them.

Skonk
02-23-2012, 04:48 AM
I love buying movies, tv series, anime etc on blu-ray but it really does pi$$ me off that on almost all of them I'm forced to watch a load of anti-piracy stuff AND adverts.

I'ts ridiculous but the last few movies I've bought force me to watch a selection of TV adds before I can start the film.

The only people who end up viewing all this garbage are the people who actually buy the discs; If I'd just gone online and downloaded them then I would have had a much more pleasant viewing experience because the first things they would strip out are the adverts.

SBowie
02-23-2012, 05:07 AM
Funny, I thought you were just on another planet Steve. ;) :DNo, same planet (parallel universe) .... :hey: :alien:

fablefox
02-23-2012, 05:49 AM
What do you think about DRM?

It doesn't work and I hate, hate, hate, hate it.

In my opinion, Occam Razzor says that Anti piracy tools should screw the pirates, not legitimate users. The problem with DRM, due to the nature of the product, screw the legitimate users, but not the pirates - because the pirated product have the DRM disabled.

A good drm should be like a credit card - you could just swipe it, and use pin at atm when you need cash, and the 3 digit to buy online. pirates need both item (card and pin, or card and 3 digit number) in order to use it.

DRM, on the other hand, like a door with 10 lock in front and emergency electronic door at the back. you need to unlock and relock all ten. but one hacker that disable the power grid (which unlock the backdoor), and anyone can walk in into a house, while the real owner still using 10 lock and unlock everyday.

I remember then first time I own a credit card and buy songs online. The first hour I was screwed because the DRM need to be activated via Windows Media Player, and I set WinAmp as my wma player. It tooks trial and error because googling does solve anything since the error code was too generic or something. The next thing was (after activation, it can be played with winamp) I went to buy an mp3 player - only to hear the sound screwed.

Moral of the story, never buy drmed wma online.

so let me get this straight: legal user can only listen on their pc, while pirates have all kind of freedom? really? seriously?

i know my example is old (at least when it come to music) now that both itunes and amazon drop drm.

this year i plan to buy a tablet - and i don't know why, but I could sense I would be equally screwed on ebooks - because ebooks with drm doesn't just works and portable like a pdf (or un drmed ebook).

sorry, long rant, but that is my experience with drm.

and does anyone remember the sony + rootkit fiasco?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

yes, that is what you get for being a nice, legitimate user.

Ironic, isn't?

jasonwestmas
02-23-2012, 07:37 AM
The only thing that does work for sure is the desire not to hijack or steal. How do we get that desire, more laws and red tape?

Dexter2999
02-23-2012, 10:33 AM
The only thing that does work for sure is the desire not to hijack or steal. How do we get that desire, more laws and red tape?

Better parenting?

shrox
02-23-2012, 10:54 AM
The only thing that does work for sure is the desire not to hijack or steal. How do we get that desire, more laws and red tape?


Better parenting?

Behavior chips.

jasonwestmas
02-23-2012, 11:12 AM
Behavior chips.

haha, I'll just leave it at that. But Yeah good parents rock!

stiff paper
02-23-2012, 12:04 PM
Behavior chips.

Oh, they'll try that just as soon as it works and they can find an excuse.

First they'll find a type of criminal to do it to that nobody can object to, like, say... well, pick one. There are a few. I'm sure everybody can think of one. And then when that works, they'll expand it to lesser categories of criminal. And then when that works they'll expand it to children so that parents can always track their kids and know they're behaving themselves. And after that... well, it's everybody.

And then two weeks later it'll turn out that some l33t hax0r had been working on a hack for the behavior chips all this time, and then when the hack is released into the wild it causes every single person in the entire world to hunt down executives at large media companies and make a bonfire out of them.

Can't wait. Sounds great.

Sometimes you can just tell that the people in charge of these things are incapable of learning. I don't know if it's because they've always been deeply stupid but ruthless and pushy, or if it's because they've done so many lines that their brain is now the consitency of a fruit smoothee. I just don't know.

But I do know that the endless procession of them proclaiming that "Oh this DRM is uncrackable!!!" while waving a BD in the air only to have the DRM cracked wide open two weeks later would make anybody normal think twice about the whole idea.

But don't ask me. I still have a large collection of vinyl albums from the 1970s. And I still think that if I want to record them so's I can listen to them while I'm in my car or walking around somewhere then, well, I paid for that music already. It's mine. You had your money back in 1978. I don't care if the DMCA says (retroactively) that what I bought was "A format". It wasn't.

shrox
02-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Oh, they'll try that just as soon as it works and they can find an excuse.

First they'll find a type of criminal to do it to that nobody can object to, like, say... well, pick one. There are a few. I'm sure everybody can think of one. And then when that works, they'll expand it to lesser categories of criminal. And then when that works they'll expand it to children so that parents can always track their kids and know they're behaving themselves. And after that... well, it's everybody.

And then two weeks later it'll turn out that some l33t hax0r had been working on a hack for the behavior chips all this time, and then when the hack is released into the wild it causes every single person in the entire world to hunt down executives at large media companies and make a bonfire out of them.

Can't wait. Sounds great.

Sometimes you can just tell that the people in charge of these things are incapable of learning. I don't know if it's because they've always been deeply stupid but ruthless and pushy, or if it's because they've done so many lines that their brain is now the consitency of a fruit smoothee. I just don't know.

But I do know that the endless procession of them proclaiming that "Oh this DRM is uncrackable!!!" while waving a BD in the air only to have the DRM cracked wide open two weeks later would make anybody normal think twice about the whole idea.

But don't ask me. I still have a large collection of vinyl albums from the 1970s. And I still think that if I want to record them so's I can listen to them while I'm in my car or walking around somewhere then, well, I paid for that music already. It's mine. You had your money back in 1978. I don't care if the DMCA says (retroactively) that what I bought was "A format". It wasn't.

BMC-Behavior Modification Chips, free installation! Also handy for forcing, err, compelling consumers to buy things.

mborge
02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
I know everyone has been waiting for my two cents...

I think the solution is simple - value, respect, and COMMUNITY.

People don't just buy software or content they "buy the company". People don't rip off their friends (or they're really not friends at all).

If you want people to be loyal be loyal to them. Treat them like fans and realize that your fans are your business. Take time to say, you're awesome for buying our product and what we do for you proves we believe it.

Here's my real world example:

I love Newtek because LW was the first app that made 3D a reality for me. Plus, there's always the pithy humor on these forums. :D

But now after all my hardcore loyalty, they've given me 60 days to decide or loose my pricing. This is not imho good business. I've been here for them for several years and now I have a 60 day put-out or get-out demand.

What does that say to me as customer?

People go where they're appreciated. That's true in life as well as in software.

Now don't all of you feel just a bit more enlightened. :tongue:

Tonttu
02-23-2012, 05:16 PM
If you want people to be loyal be loyal to them. Treat them like fans and realize that your fans are your business. Take time to say, you're awesome for buying our product and what we do for you proves we believe it.

Yeah, look at Louis C.K. (https://buy.louisck.net/) and more recently Double Fine Adventure (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure/) - it's the "Shut up and take my money" -phenomenon at its finest!

OnlineRender
02-24-2012, 02:55 AM
Uk film industry "cinema"broke all records for sales last years with profits set to increase for 2012 , dvd sales slumped however legal downloads netflex ect jumped 10 fold ...just saying

jburford
02-25-2012, 10:13 AM
I know everyone has been waiting for my two cents...

But now after all my hardcore loyalty, they've given me 60 days to decide or loose my pricing. This is not imho good business. I've been here for them for several years and now I have a 60 day put-out or get-out demand.

What does that say to me as customer?

People go where they're appreciated. That's true in life as well as in software.

Now don't all of you feel just a bit more enlightened. :tongue:


I have to agree with you here. Was also totally confused and furious in seeing a 60 day deadline to jump or loose my pricing for supporting them before with Hardcore.

At that time, I did not have the extra money, new the adventure as they were presented could not be achieved in the time and manner given, still I decided to buy in and support NT as well as getting an edge on newer technologies for 3D.

ok, we know what happenned to Core and the plans, and did receive some good value still to our Lightwave.

However, now out of the blue to give a 60 Day period to up or loose the benefit of supporting Core. . . . . Just Takes the flippin Cake!

So here I am, forced to make a decision in a period that I do not agree with. Give up ship, part ways or stay the course? Simply do not know at the moment.

Waves of light
02-25-2012, 10:55 AM
In my opinion, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

I can understand the frustration of only having 30 days to play and yet 60 days to make up your mind, but most software companies only offer 30 days anyway.

I bought an extra seat for LW9.6, with membership to the HardCore forums. With that I got an insight into the development of Core, parts of which were passed over to LW10 (VPR), which I got a free upgrade to. I also got Lino Grandi's Rigging Revealed DVD for nothing (which is an excellent tutorial) and a t-shirt.

At some point, a company has to draw a line and say that's the cut off.

jburford
02-25-2012, 11:16 AM
I agree there has to be some cut off, some point in time, but I am sorry after the fiasco of how Core was played out (not to rehash, we did receive value for our investment), personally feel it insulting to only provide 60 days. But hey, such is life and business.

Yeah, the t-shirt is cool.

roboman
02-25-2012, 12:33 PM
In my opinion, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

I can understand the frustration of only having 30 days to play and yet 60 days to make up your mind, but most software companies only offer 30 days anyway.

Most software companies don't sell vaporware any more (market and sell a program that hasn't been written yet). Most companies when they discover they can't deliver a product they have sold a customer refunds the money. Newtek instead of refunding money for a product they can't deliver offers discounts on products they might deliver at some later date (guess they made a time limited refund offer, but didn't bother to contact people and let them know) Then at a later date the discount, "you agreed to" in exchange for not getting the product you paid for, will be revoked unless you come up with several hundrad dollars in 60 days. That they took the up front money, spent years not delivering a product, then killed the project and kept the money with a promises of discounts of coming software and then after that promise changed the terms of what you have to do to get that discount upsets some. It doesn't seem unreasonable that some people would feel they are being screwed over and Newtek is stealing a discount the person already paid for by demanding an unreasonable time line that Newtek has clearly shown it can't live up to itself. It was a promise people paid for and then got changed with out their consent to help Newtek make money. Do you not get that people dislike feeling they have been misled, lied to and screwed over on things they have already paid for?

Me, I bought a ver 9 upgrade when they announced that if you bought 9 right then you would get the upgrade to 10 and core as part of the deal. I expected to get 9, figured the chances were likely I would get 10 and thought of core as a pipe dream that might be a nice bonus if it ever happened. The refund deal, I never got offered, I probably would have gone with the discount any way, wondering if they would ever live up to it, and figured it stood a reasonable chance of never being honered. I'll probably send them money for 11. They write software I like. Back in the 70's and 80's companies promised the world and you never counted on any thing more then they could put in your hand today. Newtek hasn't changed. Hell, if I hadn't come to the forum I wouldn't have known core had been killed, several months after it had been, or the discount offer that replaced it. If I hadn't come here I probably wouldn't have known LW 11 was out until next month some time or maybe the month after that and wouldn't have had a clue that Newtek had changed the rules and I had ALREADY lost my discount or would loose it very soon.....

jasonwestmas
02-25-2012, 12:49 PM
yes, yes we already know NT promised too much and couldn't deliver. We already know they don't communicate well. There is always something to fuss about, I get that.

Waves of light
02-25-2012, 02:15 PM
Most companies when they discover they can't deliver a product they have sold a customer refunds the money.

I don't know where to start with your post... but I will give it a try...

You bought an upgrade to v9 (probably for $695). With that you got a free upgrade to the next version and access to HardCore. With that, you should have got 10.1 and Lino's DVD.

Now, as I see it (and I hope someone will correct me) but Newtek DID offer a full refund to anyone who paid for their subscription to Core. That's paid, not free that came with yours and my LW upgrade.

You tell me that you expected this, and Core was a pipe dream. Yet you have been a member on these forums since 2004 and have only made 9 posts. Surly someone with access to the HardCore forums, so wanting the pipe dream that was Core, would have posted more issues, more suggestions. Again, you complain about being updated with information about upgrades... see previous comment about 9 posts.

I'm starting to get p'eed off with people who either 'don't read instructions about installing software' and automatically create a post about how rubbish the software is, or support, or come back and complain about it.

Go.. buy Maya, Max, whatever... No, wait, you can't because that would cost more than the upgrade price of LW, which in some cases is the same for the next 5 upgrades. :thumbsup:

Rayek
02-25-2012, 02:18 PM
I am old enough to recall the feeling of anticipation whenever a new update was announced for Lightwave on the Amiga, or Deluxe Paint, etc. Maybe others here might know what I am talking about: the buzz and excitement of a new Amiga model coming out... Or a new episode of Babylon 5 ;-)

In the last 10 years the industry really could not get me to sit up and take notice in regards to updates or hardware - the industry 'professionalized' quite a bit, and that is a good thing. But I always sort of missed that 'nostalgic' feeling I used to have when the industry was younger.

Well, back to the present, and I have just read that the Blender devs have Cycles working with gpu-accelerated opencl rendering (finally, thanks to AMD collaborating with them and providing a working opencl library) - and you know what? I am excited! Like before. And the same thing with Bmesh now finally integrated in trunk.

This has nothing to do with LW in a direct way, but I 'emotionally' connect with Blender, as I used to in the past with Lightwave and DeluxePaint. Or the Amiga. I guess other people 'connect' to their Apple products (*shudder*)

Photoshop does nothing for me 'emotionally' - it's a tool, but if an able competitor would appear on the market, I would switch in a snap. Not so with DeluxePaint - Still have it running in Amiga emulation ;-)

Don't know - the 'buzz', idealism, and enthusiasm surrounding Blender development is akin to what I felt during the Amiga days. Am I crazy? Perhaps, but that community seems as driven (or more) as the Amiga community in the old days.

Perhaps that is what is missing in the Newtek-Lightwave equation. Old-time users of Lightwave can surely remember this 'buzz', and it would be nice if Newtek were able to rekindle that fire in both old and new users. Emotional aspect, though irrational it may be, is very important.

cybernaut
02-25-2012, 03:08 PM
Throughout my schooling years, I have purchased many different programs, some 3D, like a good little consumer. In too many cases I met with a very frustrating experience in not just trying to GET the product but to get it working as well. At the same time as I was dealing with all this red tape, for weeks and even months sometimes, some of my "school peers" had downloaded a crack in 5 minutes and had it up and running in 30 seconds. Maybe that's just the way things go, but I was the one who was feeling like the idiot.

BigHache
02-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Newtek instead of refunding money for a product they can't deliver offers discounts on products they might deliver at some later date...

Quote shortened because it was an extremely long run-on sentence, but Waves of light is correct. If you bought a v9 upgrade late in the game, and were offered 10/CORE in addition to, or as a "bonus" to the v9 upgrade, there would be nothing to refund for CORE, because you actually paid for the v9 upgrade. This subject has been discussed in great length and it's WAY late to still be unhappy about this and/or not understand it.

We're way off topic now. Um, piracy, YAAAAAARRRRRR!

Waves of light
02-25-2012, 03:32 PM
but Waves of light is correct.

Wife needs to read that one.


We're way off topic now. Um, piracy, YAAAAAARRRRRR!

Yep, but what about the RUM...

BigHache
02-25-2012, 03:38 PM
wife needs to read that one.

lol!!!

colkai
02-25-2012, 03:41 PM
Photoshop does nothing for me 'emotionally' - it's a tool, but if an able competitor would appear on the market, I would switch in a snap. Not so with DeluxePaint - Still have it running in Amiga emulation ;-)

Have you seen Serif PhotoPlus X5?
I got the X4 as a "valued customer" for free when I upgraded my PagePlus, (their publishing software), for the huge sum of 10 quid. (Yup 10, not 100).

I got put onto Photoplus X4 by Mike "Dodgy" Green as so far, yup, very Photoshop like but stupidly priced, in a good way.

As for 3D, Blender is going to be my route in future, no more LW upgrades for me, that decision has been taken out of my hands. From now on, if it ain't free, I can't afford it. 8/

jasonwestmas
02-25-2012, 03:54 PM
Well for me the question is does the image editor have 16bpc editing capabilities?

Dexter2999
02-25-2012, 04:08 PM
I think we are getting a little off topic.

The general consensus is that piracy motivators for software is primarily cost, whereas for entertainment it is convenience and price is secondary.

Other factors are things such as the very nature of what is being pirated. Software is for people to utilize. It requires active effort. Whereas entertainment piracy is for viewing and listening, passive. It requires no effort or intelligence. So, the audience for it is magnitudes higher than that for pirated software.

We have millions of people who either think "it's no big deal, everyone does it" or that maybe they are getting a kick out of being "naughty" and not getting caught.

I think it would be probably far more productive rather than to threaten with $5,000 dollar fines and prosecution to rather have a digital way to track down violators and access an instant $50 fine per transgression.

I think people who see that $5,000 and jail threat disassociate from it. It is an abstract and unrelatable (therefor unbelievable) concept.

But an instant hit of $50 and an email saying "An unauthorized copy of <Title "X"> has been found on your system. You have been fined." would seem very real to people...more like getting a parking ticket really.

pming
02-25-2012, 11:41 PM
Hiya



But an instant hit of $50 and an email saying "An unauthorized copy of <Title "X"> has been found on your system. You have been fined." would seem very real to people...more like getting a parking ticket really.

But you know the saying...two wrongs don't make a right. :) And besides, I would *guarantee* that companies would abuse the living H-E-double-hockey-sticks out of that. Suddenly there would be 'special considerations' in the EULA or DRM that basically said "...if you install it more than once, each time is considered infringing", and before long you'd have "...you agree that you may only use the software for a total of X number of times before you are deemed a professional user. Professional users are required to upgrade to the Pro version. Failure to do so will result in a $50 fine for every day the software is used.". So, uh, no. Terrible idea. :)

On a side'ish note...back in post #12, someone basically said "price doesn't matter...2 or 20...they will pirate it". While I don't believe this is 100% accurate, I do believe there are a fair number of people who feel this way. The catch is...those people were never going to buy the stuff anyway, so claiming that a company just "lost" 2 or 20 bucks is completely false. If I test drive a $83,000 car, then refuse to buy it because I don't actually have $83k...the dealer didn't just "loose" that money. If an alien force then perfectly duplicates said car for me...the car company *still* hasn't lost any money; that I did or didn't have their car is irrelivent...I never had the $83k to give to them, so it's a moot point. (Yes, there is more grey areas to this line of thinking, but the basics are solid, IMHO).

What really ticks me off about software/digital is that companies want to treat it "just like any other product", but at the same time have it treated "with special changes". Either it's treated as everything else, or it isn't...you can't have it both ways (or, rather, shouldn't have it both ways...). "If you copy this, you're stealing from us!"..."ok, here's cash...a day passes...uh, this software isn't performing as stated on the box and I'd like to return it"..."No. You opened the box and installed it. No take-backsies for you!" o_O If you want to be treated like "real stuff", then you need to back up your claims. There are dozens of software titles that I have bought over the decades that I'd give back for a refund in a second...but I can't, because it's "digital and you registered it". Grrrrr! You can't have it both ways, damn it!

Anyway, there's my 2¢.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

PS: As one other person noted...earlier...I'm in the same "if it ain't free, it's not for me" place now. The "upgrade to v11 in 60 days or you're kicked off the Cool CORE Kids Club forever!" threat basically puts the nail in the coffin for me with LW. I was going to go to Autodesk...but I just *hate* that company. So...Blender or my older software is where I'm going now.

Rayek
02-26-2012, 01:10 AM
In the last 15 years I have tried to purchase licensed software, and my experience is that, in general, (most) bigger software companies will punish you for it.

What do I mean by saying this? Here's a personal example: I did a 3d course and was trained in Cinema4d 6/7. After finishing this course I bought a full Studio license, including ALL modules (even Hair) from Maxon - which cost me an arm and a leg. But I was happy purchasing the license.

Then v8 came out - already the update price was increasing, but I updated my license. And v8.5 (which was not too highly priced). Then Maxon decided to increase the update costs through the roof with v9, and I could not (would not) afford that. By that time I had spent around $7500 on plugins, updates, modules, etc. And for my loyalty Maxon punished me (that's how it felt like) by introducing ever-increasing update costs. So I side-graded to Lightwave.

Even if I wanted to, I will not be able to upgrade my v8.5 license to the newest version for an acceptable price. That is not how it works, it seems: because I was not "loyal", I would have to pay an insane amount of $$ to get them to allow me "to get back in the fold".

Adobe is now going to use similar draconian upgrade rules - no upgrades from older versions possible anymore.

Again, I feel punished for having bought and supported their software for all these years. In response, I have used GIMP for my latest client web project, rather than PS, because it feels (to me) as if Adobe is acting akin to a bully - and I despise bullies. Why make it harder to your existing user base to upgrade?

Now, compare this methodology of dealing with your honest (loyal) clients to Pixologic and zBrush: so far free updates, great new features, and a (seemingly) honest company that at least pretends to care.

Why is it so difficult to understand for most software companies that draconian upgrade rules will only alienate your loyal users at some point? Even *downgrading* my old c4d license would be a costly affair. It boggles the mind - come on, make it easy and painless! Be forgiving!

I really think if people want to use pirated versions, they will. But harsh upgrade rules *will* drive away users, and perhaps initiate those users into piracy.

PS "tit for that" works to the best advantage of both parties - and most companies do not seem to understand this basic strategy at all.

souzou
02-26-2012, 06:52 AM
On a side'ish note...back in post #12, someone basically said "price doesn't matter...2 or 20...they will pirate it". While I don't believe this is 100% accurate, I do believe there are a fair number of people who feel this way. The catch is...those people were never going to buy the stuff anyway, so claiming that a company just "lost" 2 or 20 bucks is completely false. If I test drive a $83,000 car, then refuse to buy it because I don't actually have $83k...the dealer didn't just "loose" that money. If an alien force then perfectly duplicates said car for me...the car company *still* hasn't lost any money; that I did or didn't have their car is irrelivent...I never had the $83k to give to them, so it's a moot point. (Yes, there is more grey areas to this line of thinking, but the basics are solid, IMHO).


Sorry I disagree with you on this one. Comparing a $83k car to a low cost consumable like a dvd or cd is not really a fair comparison. If you go back 30 years would those people that just download movies/music now have been stealing tapes and vinyl from stores? Or would they have been buying those products? If the internet didn't exist would the people that pirate stuff really not consume any of that media? I find that hard to believe - so I do view that as lost revenue for content producers.




PS: As one other person noted...earlier...I'm in the same "if it ain't free, it's not for me" place now. The "upgrade to v11 in 60 days or you're kicked off the Cool CORE Kids Club forever!" threat basically puts the nail in the coffin for me with LW. I was going to go to Autodesk...but I just *hate* that company. So...Blender or my older software is where I'm going now.

I have a different perspective on this, I see it that loyal users that have stuck with LW and always upgrade when a new release comes out are getting a discount (ie. rewarded), everyone else just gets the standard upgrade pricing. And to be honest if you skip a version you'll still only pay $695 for your upgrade, which is less than paying for the two upgrades at a discounted price anyway. Compared to Autodesk or Adobe policies (and pricing!) I still see this as a great deal. But hey that's just me. :)

SBowie
02-26-2012, 07:31 AM
It's true, imho - software protection schemes are not very effective, and do negatively impact the honest user. Surely no-one is happy about this ... except perhaps pirates who can point to it as 'justification' for their rationalizations. The 'punishing' of the honest for the behavior of cheats is certainly not limited to the software industry. I pay more for my insurance because of the dishonesty of others. I pay more (a lot more, I think) in taxes because of the cheating and dishonesty of others. It is the dishonesty of others that requires me to keep my door locked and my alarm service paid up ... etc., etc. It's annoying, but I'm not unrealistic. It's getting worse, not better.

There are arguments in this thread that boil down to 'It's not stealing when I use a pirated version because my doing so costs you nothing; you still have the software to use (or distribute) as you please'. I don't accept that view. The losses due to piracy are real, despite the somewhat different way intellectual assets are dealt with as a commercial property.

By way of comparison, people are asked to pay to attend a concert, or to buy a membership to use a swimming pool. They might have to wear a wrist-band or bear a stamp on their arm when attending. Why? That is, why should a paying customer need a 'dongle'? Because others will certainly try to sneak in without paying. Some of these will even fake the ticket, stamp or wrist band. Some contend that there is plenty of room in the pool, lots of empty space at the concert, and that paying customers have not been harmed - they still have their seat or access to the pool, after all ... but it's not that simple. The venue is more crowded because of the cheats; the experience and enjoyment honest customers have paid for is diminished and diluted by a crowd of 'unpaid guests'. In similar fashion, honest professionals often face harsh and unfair competition from people who did not pay the price of entry, but who compete in the same 'pool'. This is less true of recorded performances, for example, but even then the practice contributes to the ongoing erosion of public values, every act of piracy serving as a little stepping stone to the rampant corruption we see in business and government - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, after all, right? One act of dishonesty justifies another in retribution, or so that argument goes - and downward we sink inexorably.

Then there is the Robin Hood argument. Cheaters declaim, 'The ticket (or membership) price is egregiously high', and 'The promoters grab all the cash and the performers are under paid, what a rip off!' Let's test the validity of that righteous indignation by asking the cheats, 'Put your money where your mouth is. Sit down and add up the retail cost of all the rip-offs you've perpetrated, and send checks for what you think are reasonable production and promotion costs to those involved, then send the balance for each item directly to the performers (or programmers, as the case may be).' Otherwise, you are just as guilty as the greedy promoter.

Contentions along the lines of 'It's all part of the free market, capitalism at work' also fall short. In the long run, the laws of supply and demand are immutable ... if something is over-priced, the ethical response is to support a competitor with better pricing, or better support, or better licensing policies, or whatever. There is no competitor? Well there you go, boy - a golden opportunity. Get your buddies to scrape together their pizza and beer money and found a startup. Too much effort? Unable to compete? Then refrain from buying at all, thereby providing a market for an honest competitor to arise and gain a toehold against the giant. No? Wait - I thought you were all about the free market? But you would actually rather help the greedy developer maintain his monopoly, making sure there is no market for the little guy, instead of contributing to a real solution? Well sorry, but that seems rather hypocritical. And this is not a fairy tale. All of us who have been here a decade or more have seen giants toppled, monopolies vanish.

Barnacles come to mind, clinging to the hull of a ship, getting a free ride ... but in reality adding a lot of drag. Scraping them off is a laborious and imperfect process, annoys everyone but the barnacles, and never really all that effective - but it's a fact of life.

p.s. Some will state that, for all manner of good reasons, it's legal where I am to do this and that. Fine, good for you. Legislation that reasonably serves all parties is a mature and ethical response to complex issues.

souzou
02-26-2012, 08:35 AM
Totally agree with everything you just said Steve.

SBowie
02-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Well, thanks. I don't expect many to agree, and usually don't bother with these arguments much. People tend to find endless excuses for whatever it is they really want to do, and counter arguments don't generally have any effect. I just wanted to go on record as having seen nothing on the 'No really, I'm actually the good guy in this, fighting for justice and liberty!' pose that is remotely compelling when examined closely. Cliché or not, two wrongs really do not make a right.

Note, this is not to say I support any particular legislation, or anything of that sort. There's no shortage of one-sided, poorly implemented or unenforceable law. I'm just saying I find the arguments in favor of 'ethical piracy' quite unconvincing.

Titus
02-26-2012, 09:48 AM
I live in a city were you can buy a dvd movie on the street for $1, and you can see the police buying such products. However I own a small studio and try to be as legit as possible. We're no more a LW-only shop, when we started production of our last animated short film I've decided to go almost completely for the open source route. Instead of paying thousands dollars in software, that money could go to a couple of months in staff's salary. That decision went well in most part. We still use LW for some paid jobs, but can't afford to buy a LW/Maya/photoshop license to everyone, so it's a delicate balance of what we want and what we can get, i.e. Photoshop full or Photoshop elements or GIMP. Maya or LW or Blender. RealFlow or Blender, etc.

It's easy to talk bad about OS or inexpensive software when you can get anything you want easy. On the other side clients always ask what software and hardware you own: "You have Maya, right?". I don't care to give a real answer nowadays, if that's what they want to hear.

We had a visit from the BSA last year. They previously sent a "scouting client" with a "big project" for bid. All he wanted to know was the software we had. Since they are treating us like criminals we're not buying their software anymore.

Titus
02-26-2012, 10:01 AM
Oh! and...

Repo Man director urges fans to "pirate a bunch of my stuff right away":

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/26/repo-man-director-urges-fans-t.html

Cryonic
02-29-2012, 08:06 AM
In the long run, piracy of certain software products actually helps those products spread and maintain their "monopoly". Both Microsoft and Adobe have taken advantage of piracy in other markets to gain dominance in those areas. That was part of the reason that Microsoft introduced the low-cost version of Windows to places like China, but don't offer it in the US. From their perspective, while they didn't gain any revenue initially, it gets people using and learning their software, which means businesses in those places will purchase licenses and hire people familiar with said software.
So, it is true. If you don't like what a company does, then don't support them at all. Don't see their movies, don't use their software, don't listen to their artists, etc... Don't like Adobe... then use other apps, like GIMP, or Inkscape. Support the alternatives. Help them grow. In the case of apps like GIMP you can add features to its codebase for things it is "missing" from Photoshop.
Don't bother pirating Windows... as that just keeps Microsoft in clear majority control of the market. Use something else, like OSX or Linux or *BSD.

roboman
03-02-2012, 11:33 PM
As to piracy being about price and helping the people who wrote it. Back in the days before the internet I wrote a couple door games for bbs's and a few other things. I was only asking $2 and mostly just hoping to get enough to cover my costs. I never did get enough to cover what the compiler and other stuff had cost. Within my local calling area there were more bbs's runing my games then I has sold copies and the really funny part, one of the reg number hacks broke the software and I got more support contacts about the broken pirated software then the number of copies I had sold. From what I keep hearing, things haven't really changed

geo_n
03-03-2012, 07:29 AM
This author is f up. :D
Probably one who almost got a heart attack when megaupload and similar sites got shutdown.
I don't think most companies are asking too much for their product especially money making software, cost of lw or modo can be recuperated with a few projects.
And he's a developer? Would he work for 10/hour and sell his software for less than 50USD? The time alone is costly.
For movies, it costs a lot of talent to make them and the number of people involved need to be compensated. The vfx people are already severely underpaid.
At any rate the only thing that can be done imho is to make costs regional. A software or digital products for example, it shouldn't cost the same worldwide. It should be feasable for someone to buy it that is in line to the countries GDP or something.

Verlon
03-05-2012, 12:05 AM
I have to agree with the author of the article. I buy music. I like knowing the musicians get paid. It isn't because I cannot find a way to download it.

I buy movies. I own hundreds of them on DVD. I want to move that collection to a NAS drive and watch from anywhere in my house. What is wrong with that? I want to protect the DVDs from kids and wear. Heck, there are some shows that I am anxious to watch and can't because they aren't available in the US right now (BBC Sherlock, I am wishing I was looking at you). The system is frustrating. I would gladly buy the DVD if somoene would just sell the thing to me. They some guy comes along with a plain brown package and says "hey, you..c'mere. How would you like to buy a small letter 'm'? Oh, you want some crazy BBC show? I got that, too" [note, I am being good and patiently waiting on PBS in May].

Software, same thing. How many issues has copy protection caused. I played the game on PC called GTR. Loved it. Then I upgraded to XP-64 and the copy protection kept the game from running. Tech support for the game said that I wasn't using an actual OS, but a beta, and they weren't interested in finding a solution. StarForce (third party copy protection) actually patched their scheme, and all GTR had to do was recompile with the new CP and instant satisfied customer. They declined and lost a customer (never bought GTR2 or GTR Legends).

How about that Sony Rootkit on the music CDs? The one that secretly reported back to Sony on your music listening habits? The one that diabled your CD Rom drive if you uninstalled it? The one that Sonly would only give you an uninstaller for if you could provide them with a reason they considered good enough to warrant it? The one that was written with code that Sony STOLE (comments were found by the original author in the source)? And when the French police raided Sony, 40% of the software on their servers was pirated. Yeah, Sony is all about protecting IP.

How much of a performance hit is all this copy protection? We know virus checking is harsh. I read on a forum that the performance hit on Sasquatch is north of 20%. I have no way to verify this (and it might well not be true), but if it is true, ouch.

I am not opposed to copy protection, but I am opposed to ridiculous crap that makes it hard for honest users to enjoy a product. If the best user exeprience to be had is to buy the software, but download the crack and run that, something is horribly wrong. If CP prevents honest users from using your product, something is wrong (since you know it isn't stopping the pirates).

I mean locking your house is a good thing. Lock it every time you leave or go to sleep. Right? But, would you advocate locks that only let you (and only you) go in and out through the front door? The lock company decided you didn't ever need to go through the back door or the garage, and if you did, they would sell you other locks that invalidated your front door lock to do so. If your wife also needed a door key, she had to buy her own ($150). If she needed back door or garage door access, she had to pay for those separately from you. Also, these locks might mysteriously stop working if you rearraged your furniture or painted your house. You would have to have them re-keyed by the manufacturer, who would require that you prove you weren't trying to move the lock to a new house since you didn't actually own the locks, just licensed them for that address. This could take weeks or even months. If you replace the carpet, the locks won't work anymore and will never work again. You just have to buy (license) new locks for $150 per door. This would also happen sometimes for repainting or re-arranging furniture, because the locks were updated and Lock company didn't want to bother re-keying your old ones.

Further, at any time your locks aren't working, You aren't allowed in your own house and will be arrested for breaking and entering and forced to pay damages to the lock company for even trying to get in. How much money would you pay for this setup?

But, this lock company is the only game in town, and you are required to use them. Feeling better yet? So you paint your house, your locks quit working, and Lock company says they will work on rekeying system for your color when enough people are using it. Just check into a hotel for a few months. That is the price you pay for being an early adopter of "Desert Sienna." Then, you find out that almost every kid in the neighborhood has a skeleton key that will open your front door, back door, and garage, and they give these things away for free and they never need to be re-keyed.

Which version works better for the end user?

Rayek
03-05-2012, 01:20 AM
Good points on both sides of the fence, which only goes to show that this is *not* a black and white issue. It's grey. However, I tend to agree that honest users are negatively impacted by over-zealous anti-piracy systems, region coding, and plain-old greed. It seems to me that a fair share of anti-piracy methods base their reasoning along the lines of "guilty, unless proven otherwise".

There are the odd exceptions to this rule, though.

A couple of years ago I bought two licenses of Accutrans. I only required one, though. Why? Because Accutrans's license system is entirely based on honesty: you are allowed to use it for 30 days, and after that time you buy a license. There is no license key, no time-out, no nothing: full version, and the developer expects you to be honest enough to acquire a license.

As simple as that - a breath of fresh air, and I bought two 'copies'. And support has been brilliant compared to bigger companies I purchased software from.

I believe that once anti-piracy methods begin to negatively affect honest customers, that company has gone too far. And the Sony example goes to show that mega corporations, as a basic rule, have become and remain "mega" through foul practice - maybe borderline legal, but still dishonest/unethical nonetheless.

wrench
03-05-2012, 02:42 AM
Last Friday I wanted to show the students in my Culture and Media class the film Rare Exports. I have it on BluRay and had to buy an external BluRay drive (€80) for my laptop to use it (I could have bought an internal one and replaced the DVD that's in there, but Dell wanted €738 for it, that's roughly $1000. It would be cheaper to find a second laptop that had a BluRay drive already built in). So then I had to buy the horrible Cyberlink PowerDVD (€100) because VLC couldn't play BluRays (it can now with some fiddling). So, set for showing the film to the students I attached the projector to my laptop to be told that I was attempting to do something illegal and so the disc couldn't be displayed. My crime? The projector was connected by a VGA connector, rather than HDMI. Just think, I could have pirated the film and had none of this expense or trouble.

B

SBowie
03-05-2012, 05:29 AM
The system is frustrating ... (snip) I am not opposed to copy protection, but I am opposed to ridiculous crap that makes it hard for honest users to enjoy a product.No one will argue with that.

But, this lock company is the only game in town, and you are required to use them.But this is where the analogy breaks down. It may be that crime in your neighborhood makes a lock a necessity. And maybe you can't just jury rig something yourself (though it sounds like there would certainly be a market for it if you and your buddies could put your heads and wallets together and come up with something). But no-one absolutely has to listen to Miley Cyrus. It's not a life or death decision. And anyone who absolutely must use Photoshop or LW, just cannot manage without them, can pay for them - or should perhaps look for honest work elsewhere. Not to mention that there are alternatives to these apps, even free ones that are arguably decent enough.

Despite the fact that IP owner's practices can be quite annoying, piracy is not some form of noble protest. Rather than improve things, it unquestionably strengthens the monopolies, obliterating the prospects of successful competition. Others have often argued 'they know we're going to do it, they expect it, plan for it, benefit from it'. This is all true - and every 'free' download supports that incentive crushing system. People will continue to cheat - but let's not fool ourselves into thinking doing so is 'striking a blow for liberty'. The truth is quite the reverse. To really make a statement, to issue a wake up call to those who impose annoying and greedy practices, the correct thing to do would be to put your money where your mouth - throw your weight behind those who abjure those practices.

MentalFish
03-05-2012, 06:09 AM
Despite the fact that IP owner's practices can be quite annoying, piracy is not some form of noble protest.

True, but it should be an incentive for the IP owner to at least try to make their IP accessible and the purchasing of it as hassle free as possible. Right now a pirated version of LightWave works immediately after download, no hassle with broken serials or fragile dongles sticking out of the laptop.

There are two things that keeps me from wanting to use a pirated version of LightWave:


It is bad mojo to not pay for someone else's work (if they expect to be paid). "Do unto others" and such... :thumbsup:
I am paranoid about getting malware onto my machine


If it wasn't for those two, I'd be all over the pirated version with its hassle free approach. Many people have a low threshold in regards to messing up their mojo when it comes to not paying for any sort of software. If I am to persuade anyone to get LightWave, the friction has to be less than .0000001 N for a transaction to take place.

I was this || close to throw 800$ at modo 601 crossgrade, based on their showcase and reported hassle free purchasing process, but decided against it as I don't want to spend the time learning a new 3D software (time is of the essence). The "friction" towards learning a new 3D software is too great compared to just staying a loyal customer. I am starting to feel the friction burn from that too though.

I vote: no more features in LightWave until I can point someone to, or throw money at a website/AppStore and have the latest version of LightWave running on my machine 10 minutes later ( need some time for download and install :) ). The actual purchasing sequence should be less than 30 seconds either by typing in the password for the app store, logging into PayPal, or filling out a Visa/MasterCard form.

SBowie
03-05-2012, 06:55 AM
True, but it should be an incentive for the IP owner to at least try to make their IP accessible and the purchasing of it as hassle free as possible.But that's exactly my point (well, one of them) - it isn't incentive for them to 'make their IP accessible and the purchasing of it as hassle free as possible'. If it was, given piracy's rampant nature, it would have been effective long ago.

Instead, piracy makes things worse - both for legitimate customers and also startups who might otherwise challenge the monopolies. Paying customers are forced to endure ever more troublesome anti-piracy schemes, and to pay the costs of lobbying and legal maneuvering by developers engaging in endless and futile efforts to force honesty by legislation. Arguably far worse, piracy neuters free market forces that would otherwise encourage healthy competition. Do you see piracy bringing Adobe to it's knees? Hollywood? Auto Desk? No, you don't; and you won't. It only really hurts the little guys. How does a startup even begin to compete with the dominant software when every kid has that product on his laptop already courtesy of a warez site? Good luck finding funding for your venture. There's no incentive for competition. The fact is, rather than forcing monopolies to reform, pirates prop up those monopolies, extending their reign.

Contrarily, if people didn't steal software (etc.), we'd never have heard of DRM, SOPA, etc. And honest, paying customers wouldn't be saddled with the burdens piracy has brought about. Developers don't cheerfully expend resources on those technologies and measures. Dongles, licensing schemes, etc., were reluctantly implemented as anti-theft measures because people were ripping off the developers. Adding fuel to the fire certainly hasn't put it out. It has only made the honest users suffer. And frankly, I've no doubt it will continue to do so, as people continue to make excuses for what is essentially simple theft.

p.s.

I vote: no more features in LightWave until I can point someone to, or throw money at a website/AppStore and have the latest version of LightWave running on my machine 10 minutes later ( need some time for download and install :) ). The actual purchasing sequence should be less than 30 seconds either by typing in the password for the app store, logging into PayPal, or filling out a Visa/MasterCard form. you'll get no argument from me that the purchase and installation process need to be as friendly as possible - but I stop well short of suggesting that any awkwardness that might exist justifies piracy. Again, the free market is perfectly capable of punishing those who fail to realize that you don't want to annoy your customers needlessly.

Dexter2999
03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Wrench- Seeing as you own the disc...

You were thwarted by HDCP which pings the system as it were to ensure that the system is "secure" against possible piracy.

In the future, you may want investigate a program called makeMKV.
http://makemkv.com/

It is free. But apparently never made it out of Beta so there is only one version that you have to keep downloading/installing every 30 days.

VLC will play MKV's.

Titus
03-05-2012, 09:28 AM
This sums my thoughts:

http://www.marco.org/2012/02/25/right-vs-pragmatic

MentalFish
03-05-2012, 09:30 AM
It only really hurts the little guys. How does a startup even begin to compete with the dominant software when every kid has that product on his laptop already courtesy of a warez site?

You make the overall experience more pleasant than the big companies. You ensure your paying customer base are happy to be your paying customers, and you don't spend time/frustration over people who don't want become your paying customer.

As a game developer (or software developer in general) one can make it into a selling point that it is DRM free, you create a fan base, "Buy this and we will create more stuff", create an open and active relationship with its customers. You can do Humble Bundles and get it on as many devices/platforms as possible (iOS/Android/Web/Mac/Win/SmartTV), app stores, in app purchases + in game ads++ the list goes on for how you can monetize creative work. Spread the risk and potential.

If you have a movie or TV show, make it available for purchase through iTunes, directly on your site with PayPal, ad-based low-res for cheapskates++ Let me have it asap, don't tempt me with a promise of a future release at a cinema near me. I know the movie is out there, right now, let me throw some money at you right now to get it. If not, chances are more people will turn into pirates from the frustration (friction) of having to wait, ...needlessly?. If I want to see a TV show that airs today, should I wait for it to air 6 months later in Norway?

Point is, even with all the DRM in the world, things gets hacked/pirated, and the only way to beat it is to have a better product or service than the pirated version. People want to do good, but if it is too much hassle to do so, its a short fall into piratehood. Yarrr!

If I ever get a proper game out, I will go for a low barrier of entry to get people playing. No need to register up front to be able to play. Make it freemium - pay to get more. If it somehow gets hacked so people with jailbroken iPhones gets everything for free, then I'll ignore them. They are not my target audience and nothing or very little of what I say will make them into paying customers. Spending my time trying to create a cumbersome DRM-scheme is just wasted effort as everything will get hacked, and those who have to deal with the DRM solution (the paying customers) will get frustrated.

I don't want everything to cost 0$ and be DRM free. Just get rid of needless obstacles so that people who are willing to part with their hard earned cash can do so, easily.

SBowie
03-05-2012, 09:36 AM
You make the overall experience more pleasant than the big companies. You ensure your paying customer base are happy to be your paying customers, and you don't spend time/frustration over people who don't want become your paying customer.Again, I'm certainly not against improved customer service, and that can be one of the factors that draw people away form the juggernauts, just as you say. But we've had inexpensive and and friendly contenders dying to step up and challenge Photoshop for years ... yet they can hardly hold a place in the market - why? One major factor is that the prevalence of pirated copies of the king kong apps kills competitive product sales. Most people find it far easier to steal the high end app than give support to the little guys.

So yes, by all means - try to make the experience of ownership pleasant. Just don't try to tell me that piracy is punishing the giants. It's not.

MentalFish
03-05-2012, 09:46 AM
So yes, by all means - try to make the experience of ownership pleasant. Just don't try to tell me that piracy is punishing the giants. It's not.

Never said, never will :) Piracy is not "fighting the power", its not cool, its not right, its not good nor evil, it just happens, for X amount of reasons.

I am saying that, trying to get money from people who are not willing to give them to you is difficult, so its better to focus on the ones who potentially will.

Btw, when I was one of da kidz back in the early 90'ies, I had a pirated version of LW on my Amiga, and it resulted in 2 licenses + 2 upgrades along the way. If I had grown up with Windows and a bogus version of 3DS Max, then thats most likely where the money would have gone in the end. So its not all doom and gloom with "extended demo versions" either :D Perhaps thats why Unity also went for their free version? Why let the pirated version be the "extended demo version" when they could do it themselves and have full control over it + all the marketing mojo that follows it :thumbsup:

SBowie
03-05-2012, 01:55 PM
I am saying that, trying to get money from people who are not willing to give them to you is difficult, so its better to focus on the ones who potentially will.I can't disagree with that sentiment.


So its not all doom and gloom with "extended demo versions" either.And mugging creates jobs in the law enforcement, health care, firearms and insurance industries. There's always a silver lining if you look hard enough ... :devil:

Rayek
03-05-2012, 03:11 PM
Again, I'm certainly not against improved customer service, and that can be one of the factors that draw people away form the juggernauts, just as you say. But we've had inexpensive and and friendly contenders dying to step up and challenge Photoshop for years ... yet they can hardly hold a place in the market - why? One major factor is that the prevalence of pirated copies of the king kong apps kills competitive product sales. Most people find it far easier to steal the high end app than give support to the little guys.

So yes, by all means - try to make the experience of ownership pleasant. Just don't try to tell me that piracy is punishing the giants. It's not.

That... is a very interesting thought. I just finished reading an article in 3dWorld titled "Life After Photoshop", and how Adobe's new changes in upgrade pricing have led vfx/3d designers to look elsewhere for alternatives to Photoshop. A very interesting read, and it mirrors my thoughts exactly (which I have been saying in forums for years) that PS is becoming somewhat decrepit in its workflow. Mari has gotten a good foothold in the industry now, replacing Photoshop for texture painting.

Even a poll for "your Photoshop for 3d texturing" was done: http://tinyurl.com/texturepoll

I have the 'perfect' Photoshop replacement in my head (and on paper) designed now (which already includes all the requirements mentioned in the article above), and I have done some tests that make me believe I can probably implement a prototype relatively quickly. That's what you stated earlier, I believe:


... if something is over-priced, the ethical response is to support a competitor with better pricing, or better support, or better licensing policies, or whatever. There is no competitor? Well there you go, boy - a golden opportunity. Get your buddies to scrape together their pizza and beer money and found a startup.

You are absolutely correct: if one wants change, sometimes one must take fate into one's own hands. After years of hoping/expecting to see a real PS alternative, I've actually started working on my own replacement. You've inspired me. May take some time, though ;-)

SBowie
03-05-2012, 03:20 PM
After years of hoping/expecting to see a real PS alternative, I've actually started working on my own replacement.Yay. I'm know I'm somewhat unorthodox, but I am not a big fan of the PShop UI...

Verlon
03-05-2012, 09:16 PM
No one will argue with that.
But this is where the analogy breaks down. It may be that crime in your neighborhood makes a lock a necessity. And maybe you can't just jury rig something yourself (though it sounds like there would certainly be a market for it if you and your buddies could put your heads and wallets together and come up with something). But no-one absolutely has to listen to Miley Cyrus. It's not a life or death decision. And anyone who absolutely must use Photoshop or LW, just cannot manage without them, can pay for them - or should perhaps look for honest work elsewhere. Not to mention that there are alternatives to these apps, even free ones that are arguably decent enough.

..


But if my and my buddies make a 3D rendering program, and it works, and it catches on like wildfire, how long until the patent trolls show up to at least try to shut us down (even if we were as honest as possible while writing it)? If AD honestly felt the were losing money to Blender, I bet there would be a lot more C&D letters flying. Look at Apple vs Samsung (or the whole of semiconductor manufacturing).

No, you do not have to listen to Miley Cyrus (be times I wish I could avoid it, myself). But her promoters are quite happy to tell children they do have to. We as parents combat this in defense of our sanity, but kids are kids. Some kids want more than they can have. Not MY kids and not YOUR kids... some other kids out there somewhere :)

But suppose I WANT to listen to Miley Cyrus. I buy the disk, but would prefer to listen on my NEXTGEN player and leave the disk safe at home. Record companies want to say this is a crime, and I need to buy ANOTHER version of the same song to listen to it on NEXGEN. They say we are stealing from them when we don't. I can't clone Miley and make my own recordings. That is illegal also. So in that sense, I am cornered. Remember all the hooplah when the iPods hit the market?

If I want to just watch Spider-Man. I bought the DVD, but would prefer to just watch the movie, not all that junk in front of the movie on the disk (especially since the disk is 10 years old). Sony (oh how I love these guys) says that you are a criminal STEALING from them each and every time you skip those commercials. They have tried to get legislation altered so they could make it impossible for you to do so. What they'd have to say about you ripping the DVD that you own and excluding all that stuff is predictably even worse.

I am not saying Miley Cyrus is life or death, but that they do over-charge consumers, under-pay the artists (though Miley may not be the best example of this), and infringe on our fair use with the double standards alluded to earlier.

If I buy a song (or a software product, or a movie), my rights to that product should be exactly like my rights to a book (or a NewTek dongle). I can use it wherever I like (laptop, desktop, work, coffee shop, tablet, smart phone). I can loan it to a friend. I can sell it. As long as only one copy of that product is in use at one time, everything is fair.

EULAs try to circumvent this and limit your rights, like when Garth Brooks went after the used CD market, saying that was infringing on his rights. The basis for all this nonsense is that the software is copied from the disk into system memory in order to use it. This is why you own a license to use Photoshop instead of owning a copy of Photoshop. It is crap. It isn't even NEW crap. Book publishers tried this same nonsense around 1900 with an EULA on the inside cover of the book. The Supreme Court said no then, and they should say no now.

Again, I am not advocating piracy, but pointing out how the less than saintly folks with the IP are encouraging it with their greed and treatment of consumers. I want to watch Star Wars on my iPad. Well, I have bought and paid for that movie on VHS, Laser Disc, DVD, and Blu-Ray. Why should I have to buy it a fifth time? Why can't I just rip the DVD I already own and throw it in the closet? 20th Century Fox doesn't think that is okay. Why not? As long as I do not distribute it, what am I doing wrong?

Now you see me watching Star Wars on my iPad and ask me about it. I explain it, but you can't rip DVDs. You say how you'd love to do this, but you can't get your wife to let you buy Star Wars on iTunes since you also have already bought and paid for that movie on VHS, Laser Disc, DVD, and Blu-Ray. I hook you up since you actually do own the movie (and I know you do/you proved it to me somehow). I still do not see that Fox has suffered any harm.

Yes, at some point, someone shares it with someone who never paid for it. Those people are crooks. Prosecute them. But do not put a bunch of crap on my DVD that I don't want, especially if it BREAKS my ability to use it (security on Casino Royale for example). Especially don't do it and tell me it is to keep prices down when prices aren't down!

MentalFish
03-06-2012, 02:22 AM
I can't disagree with that sentiment.

And mugging creates jobs in the law enforcement, health care, firearms and insurance industries. There's always a silver lining if you look hard enough ... :devil:

Chaos theory according to Zorg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krcNIWPkNzA :thumbsup:

BigHache
03-06-2012, 03:24 PM
There's a mass mentality shift that needs to happen. That clip from "The Fifth Element" on Youtube actually is copyright infringement. Not everyone thinks that way. Making a family photo slideshow, syncing your favorite song to it and posting it on Youtube is a huge no-no. People in the industry know this. The layman usually doesn't understand this, which you can see by comments like, 'It's just photos of my family, why did you remove this Youtube?'

I agree with Verlon on the DVD. If I buy a DVD I want to rip it to my HTPC or whatever, it really shouldn't be a problem because I bought the product. To answer his question, what is he doing wrong? I say that comes down to viewing movies as a software and treating the purchase of a DVD like it comes with an EULA. The EULA for a DVD basically states do not copy. You want the "digital" version, go buy that in iTunes store. At the end of the day, you could have the copy on your HTPC and lend the DVD at the same time. They want to prevent the could, plus they sell a specific product for what you want. The digital version. What are the actual chances you will loan a DVD AND say 'oh I want to watch that at the same time'? Probably next to zero. Good luck with convincing people en masse they need to buy the same thing twice.

No, I don't agree with or endorse piracy. Companies are continually convincing me to stop consuming their goods at all though.

Steve, good points. I always enjoy reading your posts. You're one of the most unbiased persons I've never met.

I would like to know this. I have bought a few BD's that come with a digital version. If I lend out that disc and decide to fire up that digital version, have I committed copyright infringement?

Dexter2999
03-06-2012, 03:34 PM
I would like to know this. I have bought a few BD's that come with a digital version. If I lend out that disc and decide to fire up that digital version, have I committed copyright infringement?

I'd say no. You bought multiple formats do with those as you will this side of redistributing it. As a variant, I have bought the Blu-ray/DVD sets and loaned out the DVD disc while I kept the Blu-ray for my own viewing.

However, the lawyers for the IP holders most likely have other opinions.

Verlon
03-06-2012, 05:10 PM
There's a mass mentality shift that needs to happen. That clip from "The Fifth Element" on Youtube actually is copyright infringement. Not everyone thinks that way. Making a family photo slideshow, syncing your favorite song to it and posting it on Youtube is a huge no-no. People in the industry know this. The layman usually doesn't understand this, which you can see by comments like, 'It's just photos of my family, why did you remove this Youtube?'

I agree with Verlon on the DVD. If I buy a DVD I want to rip it to my HTPC or whatever, it really shouldn't be a problem because I bought the product. To answer his question, what is he doing wrong? I say that comes down to viewing movies as a software and treating the purchase of a DVD like it comes with an EULA. The EULA for a DVD basically states do not copy. You want the "digital" version, go buy that in iTunes store. At the end of the day, you could have the copy on your HTPC and lend the DVD at the same time. They want to prevent the could, plus they sell a specific product for what you want. The digital version. What are the actual chances you will loan a DVD AND say 'oh I want to watch that at the same time'? Probably next to zero. Good luck with convincing people en masse they need to buy the same thing twice.

No, I don't agree with or endorse piracy. Companies are continually convincing me to stop consuming their goods at all though.

Steve, good points. I always enjoy reading your posts. You're one of the most unbiased persons I've never met.

I would like to know this. I have bought a few BD's that come with a digital version. If I lend out that disc and decide to fire up that digital version, have I committed copyright infringement?


Well, ripping a DVD, and watching the ripped version at the same time someone else watches the DVD elsewhere IS copyright infringement, and I grant that, but could is not the same as did. This is the exact scenario and response that came up when VCRs first came out and movie companies complained that people could copy movies illegally. The Supreme Court of the US (and presumably everywhere else VCRs are legal), said that the ability to commit a crime does not equate to having done so.

Think of all the other ways you could commit a crime (jaywalking, drunk driving, mass murder spree with a spark from Taco Bell). Does your ability to do these crimes mean you are already guilty of them? No, and the gripe is that these industries are treating us like we did.

Fairly speaking, I am doing nothing wrong by watching a movie I bought on my iPad intend of the disc it came on (and what about movies that aren't even offered in a digital format - not everything popped up on iTunes the day it launched). The industry would prefer you paid each and every time you watched the movie. If they could make that happen, they would. Look at Divx (not the codec, the failed alternative to DVDs circa 1995, backed by Circuit City and various movie studios) which was taking us in that direction.

They want to sell software/music/movies like its a product and restrict it like it is a service. They want to have their cake and eat it, too legally speaking,

SBowie
03-06-2012, 06:54 PM
But suppose I WANT to listen to Miley CyrusThen nothing I can say will likely dissuade you. ;)


Yes, at some point, someone shares it with someone who never paid for it. Those people are crooks. Prosecute them. But do not put a bunch of crap on my DVD that I don't want, especially if it BREAKS my ability to use it (security on Casino Royale for example).It's entirely possible for someone to start parsing 'the dill and the cumin' in matters like this, getting lost in the fine print and missing the larger issues. And I'm strongly disinclined to offer judgements on those matters, aside from those that apply to my own actions.

Still, and speaking broadly, someone can always pose a fringe scenario wherein a technical breach seems perfectly reasonable; perhaps even the IP holder would really not care (one could always ask, if in doubt). The problem with this is that, for many, the next step is to say 'If this is ok, it's all ok.' And that's a big leap.

There are regions, I'm told, where 'common sense' consumer laws have been implemented. Would it perhaps be better to strive for that sort of thing than to use excesses to justify widespread abuse (whether by Draconian legislation on the one side, or liberal copyright infringement on the other)?

Again, at the end of the day nothing teaches commercial interests vital lessons like a little dose of capitalism. I confess I have seen Casino Royale, but I can certainly live without it. If practices of any sort associated with it really bugged me that much, I'd boycott it and write the purveyor a letter telling them why. If nobody bought a few 'blockbuster releases' in a row, I bet you'd see new and much friendlier policies in a hurry. SOPA-style measures would wither on the vine in the face of a determined backlash.

Verlon
03-06-2012, 07:39 PM
Then nothing I can say will likely dissuade you. ;)

Again, at the end of the day nothing teaches commercial interests vital lessons like a little dose of capitalism. I confess I have seen Casino Royale, but I can certainly live without it. If practices of any sort associated with it really bugged me that much, I'd boycott it and write the purveyor a letter telling them why. If nobody bought a few 'blockbuster releases' in a row, I bet you'd see new and much friendlier policies in a hurry. SOPA-style measures would wither on the vine in the face of a determined backlash.

Yes, but if you bought the Casino Royale DVD, and tried to play it, only to find that the new security in place would not work with your DVD player, the position of the movie studio is "you opened the box, you own the DVD. You didn't buy a product. You paid for a service, and you can't return a service."

So you say, "but I didn't get the service. I want my money back."

Then they say, "You have the DVD, don't you? That is proof that you have the service. It's like a product. You were just trying to copy it and return it, you nasty pirate."

So you say, "well, I guess I'll just put this DVD on ebay."

And they say "Cease and Desist. You don't have the right to sell OUR service to someone else. It isn't a product, you know. Didn't you read the EULA?"

and that is just wrong. It doesn't matter if I can't organize a massive passive resistance movement or not. It is, at its core, wrong.

If we did manage to organize and not buy a blockbuster disk as some kind of protest, the studios would say we were watching it via pirated copies and complain about all the lost revenue to encourage more legislation.

Heck, if the "get everyone to vote smarter" idea worked, we would have better elected officials across the board.

They lie, cheat, and steal every chance they can get away with it to further their own ends (profit) at the expense of the users, some of whom will lie, cheat, and steal at every chance they get to further their ends. The companies have more, better lawyers, but it is the same racket. Then they want to tell us how they are better than the other liars, cheats, and thieves because they have a marketing department.

Yes, some common sense would be nice (and you could expand that discussion into the entire legal system really quick, as far as that goes).

Verlon
03-06-2012, 07:58 PM
as far as parsing the 'dill and cumin,' Well, Thor was a fairly big release last year. It made just south of $450 million in world wide box office and, by the end of November, had sold 1,045,566 copies of DVDs (including Blu-ray) for $20 million and change.

So, one million DVDs. How many people have the convicted of pirating that movie? They are blowing up a small problem and 'parsing the dill and cumin,' to make it harder for you to watch a movie when and where you like. I believe they are more interested in restricting the rights of honest paying users so they can milk more money out of us.

And in saying all this, I should probably take a moment to say that Newtek is much better than most about all this. I do understand the dongle and appreciate how good NT is about transfers and the like. I just wish there were a better way.

SBowie
03-06-2012, 08:27 PM
and that is just wrong. It doesn't matter if I can't organize a massive passive resistance movement or not. It is, at its core, wrong.Lots of things are wrong. You know what they say about two wrongs, though ...

These things are services, products - basically, if you don't like the way they do business, you're under no compulsion to refrain from entering into a business relationship with them. It's not like they have the monopoly on air (yet).

Verlon
03-06-2012, 08:34 PM
Lots of things are wrong. You know what they say about two wrongs, though ...

These things are services, products - basically, if you don't like the way they do business, you're under no compulsion to refrain from entering into a business relationship with them. It's not like they have the monopoly on air (yet).

I am not advocating piracy, though. I am saying they should change the way they do business (or not get self-righteous when other people act just like they do).

So, correct the first wrong, not add a second. And my movie going and buying expenses, such as they are, might seriously impact the global economic recovery were I to suddenly stop :)

Then less movies get made and think of all the Lightwavers that would be out of work....no, it is too great a risk for too much collateral damge. I must continue to go to the movies and duy DVDs.

SBowie
03-07-2012, 05:52 AM
I am not advocating piracy, though.Didn't mean to suggest you were, just discussing the topic in broad strokes. :)


Then less movies get made and think of all the Lightwavers that would be out of work....Nah, realistically ... they'd reform their practices long before they'd stop making tripe.

wrench
03-09-2012, 03:29 AM
Yay, just tried to show that BluRay to my class again. I went and bought an HDMI cable thinking that would resolve the issue I had last time of trying to play it back through VGA. My laptop has an HDMI port, so I thought that would be okay. It also has an Optimus system with an Intel HD chipset and an NVidia card. The HDMI port is only available through the NVidia and you can't get PowerDVD to use the NVidia graphics card, so I'm stuck again. Just to reiterate what being honest has cost me so far:

Rare Exports BluRay - €15
External Blu-Ray drive - €80
PowerDVD - €100
HDMI cable - €10
Time spent trying to research a solution at my hourly rate of €45 - €135

solution found: none.

Piracy? Strictly price-less.

Not saying that I want to, or am going to download this film, but I have made significant efforts to comply.

B

K-Dawg
03-09-2012, 04:03 AM
Try VLC Player. The newest version should support Bluerays (experimental) and I'm sure it won't take too long and it will support Blueray stably.

It doesn't cost anything, so it can't hurt.

http://www.videolan.org/

wrench
03-09-2012, 04:38 AM
Oh trust me, I have. I've done the libaacs.dll thing and added the keydb.cfg and perhaps it works for other Blu-Rays, just not this one.

B

Tonttu
03-09-2012, 06:29 AM
Try Potplayer, from the creator of the legendary KMPlayer:
32-bit http://www.dvbsupport.net/download/index.php?act=view&id=230
64-bit http://www.dvbsupport.net/download/index.php?act=view&id=236

Dexter2999
03-09-2012, 10:28 AM
makeMKV- $0
VLC Player- $0

Saving yourself aggrivation- Priceless

wrench
03-09-2012, 10:55 AM
What would be priceless is to play the BluRay I paid for without needing to jump through hoops. One of the students, found a *better* version to download immediately I told them about the problem - it was better for them in the sense that it had French subtitles where the original only has English, and that only where Suomi is being spoken, there are no subtitles when English is being spoken. Even if I rip using make MKV, it means I have to have the film sitting on my hard drive; when I have a nice, circular bit of plastic with the film sitting on it waiting to be watched.

I could just buy a PS3, that would be about the same price as I've already spent and hook that up to the projector to show the film. That would please Sony.

B

BigHache
03-09-2012, 11:29 AM
@wrench Wow, just wow. As long as situations like that with DRM remain, piracy will run rampant. The MPAA is NEVER going to convince people that, "Buy our stuff and still not be able to do what you want within the law," is okay.

wrench
03-09-2012, 11:33 AM
I don't think anyone can say I haven't tried to play the game. I have just used MakeMKV to rip the disc to my machine, but I don't think I'd be happy to have to do that with every BluRay I want to show my class. This one weighs in at ~18GB and has no extras to speak of. We'll find out next Friday. Oh and make MKV isn't free, I have a 30-day trial, after which I'm expected to fork out more money.

B

Dexter2999
03-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Oh and make MKV isn't free, I have a 30-day trial, after which I'm expected to fork out more money.

B

Where did you find a purchase? I downloaded from makeMKV.com and there is no purchase option. It is aggravating that the download is only good for 30 days then you have to re-download it. And if the software were available I might consider it for a reasonable price. But all I see is the free version available.

And while I see your point of view as to playing the disc, I am in the complete opposite camp as to using discs. I have converted roughly 350 discs of movies and tv shows from my collection to Mpeg's on two 2TB drives so I have my movies played back through Windows Media Center.

wrench
03-09-2012, 11:58 AM
Ah, so it's just you have to re-download it? When I saw that it was a 30-day trial I guess I just assumed... I too would be happy to pay for the software. It was fast and did exactly what I thought it would. As for disc space, that would be fine only I'm using my laptop at the school, so I only have my internal 500 GB.

B

Dexter2999
03-09-2012, 01:42 PM
As for disc space, that would be fine only I'm using my laptop at the school, so I only have my internal 500 GB.

B

I feel your pain, Sir. My laptop was in a similar state. I broke down and purchased a 1TB USB drive. Then I added portable apps to the drive. Now I just carry the drive around and run it on whatever computer is handy. I don't even carry around my laptop anymore.

But I understand if not everyone shares my situation.

wrench
03-09-2012, 01:57 PM
It's a lovely laptop, if a bit heavy, with three USB 2 ports, 2x USB 3 ports, VGA, HDMI and DisplayPort video out, eSATA and more. For connectivity it's the bee's knees. It just doesn't have a Blu-Ray drive and so I already have to carry an external one of those around, otherwise I probably would go for another USB drive, esp a USB 3 one - yumm...

B

wrench
03-11-2012, 03:43 PM
I posted to my (infrequently updated) blog: http://beevee-notes.blogspot.com/2012/03/piracy-threshold.html

B

Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2012, 04:14 PM
Something that I see coming up in the whole piracy debate over and over again is this:
If you were to make your product x times cheaper, then x times more people would buy it. The logic of this argument is flawed as it assumes an unlimited market of people willing to buy the product, but simply lacking the funds to do so. But if you think about this, you will realize that this is not entirely true, it cant be. Not everyone wants LightWave, no matter how cheap you make it. Most people dont care about it and would not bother downloading it if it was for free, simply becaue they do not need it and do not want it. Believe it or not, but not everybody wants to do visual effects ;) Even movies dont have an unlimited market. There are so many movies out there (most actually these days) that I would not even bother watching if it was for free, same with music. There may be some people that have the desire to own every album of music ever made, but I can tell you that they are rare.
So you have a limited market and you have to price your product for that market in order to make a certain amount of turnover, which you will need in order to make a profit.
We priced VoluMedic at a pretty steep price, because we were aware that the market for the product, as it was, was quite limited. Poeple doing medial viz would buy it, but that was it.
With VoluMedic CE, we finally introduced features that should make the product interesing for a larger audience and were able to lower the price for it. I still regard this as an experiment however and it will be interesting to see whether the product will sell well enough at this price to be profitable.

Dexter2999
03-11-2012, 04:24 PM
With VoluMedic CE, we finally introduced features that should make the product interesing for a larger audience and were able to lower the price for it. I still regard this as an experiment however and it will be interesting to see whether the product will sell well enough at this price to be profitable.

I must admit I have been curious about this as well. I hope the experiment yields you a nice little windfall.

I've been listening to my fellow technicians kvetch about HDMI for a couple of years now. I maintain that HDMI is not a professional connector rather it is a consumer connector, designed to prevent the public from pirating media. My peers are finally getting fed up with trying to install 1080p into our venues and finding they are unable to run it through our audio/video routers because of HDMI (the HDCP considers it an "open" system rather than a "closed loop"). Also finding that they aren't getting any audio because the audio jacks don't output when the HDMI is connected. (In all of our venues, audio and video are handled separately.)

HD/SDI anyone?

wrench
03-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Wow, that's appalling. :( Would DVI help, since it doesn't include audio? I saw that HDMI 1.4 now also supports networking, which means that I can see that we'll be reliant on that one cable for our network connections as well before long. :(

B
PS. I completely agree with you Elmar, and it was the one point in Matt Gemmell's blog post that I didn't hold with - the notion that things were too expensive. Sure, we'd all like "stuff" to be cheaper, but I don't think it's a strong argument for the reasons behind piracy. On the other hand, charging the same price for an ebook version of a novel for something that has no printing, distribution, storage or delivery costs *is* unconscionable - we should be rewarded for driving towards an environment that is cleaner and healthier, not punished.

B

Cryonic
03-11-2012, 07:17 PM
On the other hand, charging the same price for an ebook version of a novel for something that has no printing, distribution, storage or delivery costs *is* unconscionable - we should be rewarded for driving towards an environment that is cleaner and healthier, not punished.

B

I've talked with and dealt with some publishers and the actual costs of printing are minimal in comparison to the rest of the costs. Costs like Artist royalties, author's pay, editing, layout, etc... On a book that was $40 cover price, the cost to print it, full color, was about $4 per book for printing. The cost for the art and other stuff was over $20 per book. The rest, provided that entire print runs would sell out, was either eaten up by distributors/stores wanting their cut or direct sales giving the publisher a larger % of the profit margin.
So, selling an ebook for the same price as the physical product isn't unconscionable as all that has changed is the cost of printing. Distribution and warehousing aren't gone. They are shifted to something else (servers, electricity, network connections, programming, etc...).

BigHache
03-11-2012, 09:23 PM
I've talked with and dealt with some publishers and the actual costs of printing are minimal in comparison to the rest of the costs. Costs like Artist royalties, author's pay, editing, layout, etc... On a book that was $40 cover price, the cost to print it, full color, was about $4 per book for printing. The cost for the art and other stuff was over $20 per book. The rest, provided that entire print runs would sell out, was either eaten up by distributors/stores wanting their cut or direct sales giving the publisher a larger % of the profit margin.
So, selling an ebook for the same price as the physical product isn't unconscionable as all that has changed is the cost of printing. Distribution and warehousing aren't gone. They are shifted to something else (servers, electricity, network connections, programming, etc...).

I've heard this too, and their broken system is not my fault. Additionally, to carry the same economics of a printed book to an ebook would suggest that the printed books are no longer available which is not the case. They're still selling printed copies for that formula to work. That doesn't work with ebooks. I have to spend several hundred dollars for a device to use their software, I can't lend the copy for an indefinite amount of time, nor can I sell a used copy of my ebook. The publishers have to pay me for all of that, not the other way around.

Cryonic
03-11-2012, 11:37 PM
I've heard this too, and their broken system is not my fault. Additionally, to carry the same economics of a printed book to an ebook would suggest that the printed books are no longer available which is not the case. They're still selling printed copies for that formula to work. That doesn't work with ebooks. I have to spend several hundred dollars for a device to use their software, I can't lend the copy for an indefinite amount of time, nor can I sell a used copy of my ebook. The publishers have to pay me for all of that, not the other way around.

So, who gets shorted in the digital domain vs the print domain? should artists accept less for their work? what about the writers or the editors? I don't see what you mean by a "broken" system. Yes, some abilities are gone because you've accepted the ebook over the printed work. But they didn't force you to do that. Publishers have openly stated they don't like the existence of the secondary markets.
Both Kindle and Nook have a device that is about $70 in price, not hundreds.

DigitalSorcery8
03-12-2012, 12:34 AM
Well... I know that I published my book as an ebook and it cost virtually nothing. Of course *I* did all of the proofing and formatting and preparation and testing and uploading. But that is essentially ONLY a one-time cost. OTOH... if I wanted to publish hardcopies, the cost with color images would have been more than $20 for 500 books or slightly less using POD. Whereas the cost of the ebook is next to nothing - especially since I created the images and did all of the work. I can charge $4.99 for the ebook but for the same printed book I'd have to charge LOTS more just to cover the costs. Using CreateSpace I'd have to sell the book for about $25 JUST to make a little bit of profit - less than selling an ebook.This of course was some time ago - and I'm sure if you go through a publisher the cost of printing is probably quite a bit less. But the author doesn't get a HUGE cut (few authors make a great living) and editing & layout are one-time fees and are not SUPER high. And unless you get a name artist the cost there is also not very high.

Nope, print books cost more to create than ebooks.

BigHache
03-12-2012, 06:57 AM
So, who gets shorted in the digital domain vs the print domain? should artists accept less for their work? what about the writers or the editors?

From a consumer standpoint, that's unfortunately not my problem. It's the same argument theatres have that they have to charge $6 for a Coke because they don't make a large enough margin on ticket sales. Not my fault. Do I have to pay for it? Of course not, but that doesn't make it price gauging nonetheless.



I don't see what you mean by a "broken" system. Yes, some abilities are gone because you've accepted the ebook over the printed work. But they didn't force you to do that. Publishers have openly stated they don't like the existence of the secondary markets.
Both Kindle and Nook have a device that is about $70 in price, not hundreds.

What I mean by a broken system is simply what they're doing isn't working. Like the MPAA and the RIAA have done, they've tried to treat the digital market as the same as analog products, but then they removed my ability to do things like sell my copy. I do think that is broken. "Accepted the ebook" sounds like I'm knowingly taking something that isn't as good.

Publishers don't like secondary markets? I'm sorry but they don't get to dictate this.

Also, I haven't seen numbers to suggest that ebooks are taking away from the print market. I would say instead ebooks have opened another market, and sometimes people buy the ebook and the printed copy.

If books were published solely as an ebook, then sure, most of the same economics should carry over. Most because I still don't possess a physical product. As it stands, all the expenses for the author, art, editing, etc. are all done IF a publisher decides to offer an ebook. The only expense they have is to create the ebook version which they don't always do correctly.

Dexter2999
04-14-2012, 02:35 PM
UPDATE

MKV is now for purchase and the trial does expire.
It is $50 US.

It was nice while it lasted. I think I'll buy it though. It has been good software in my experience.

erikals
04-14-2012, 02:50 PM
$50 = good \:]

Tonttu
04-14-2012, 04:10 PM
Why don't you use something like Vidcoder: http://vidcoder.codeplex.com/

Dexter2999
04-14-2012, 04:44 PM
Why don't you use something like Vidcoder: http://vidcoder.codeplex.com/

That product doesn't remove encryption from the files allowing me to rip the disks I bought to hard drive. Also, it doesn't support subtitles.