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Tony3d
02-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Do I understand this correctly? You can only make instances in layout correct? You can't actually make instances of objects in modeler?

ivanze
02-19-2012, 12:16 PM
You are right.

Tony3d
02-19-2012, 03:25 PM
Doesen't seem very useful for making detailed objects in Modeler. I can see it for a big scene with trees or something, but what about a cable with hundreds of windings, or a chain with a lot of links.

lertola2
02-19-2012, 04:03 PM
Doesen't seem very useful for making detailed objects in Modeler. I can see it for a big scene with trees or something, but what about a cable with hundreds of windings, or a chain with a lot of links.

It could be useful in both those situations. You could make one high poly link for you chain. Put a single polygon where each of the links in the chain should go and then instance the chain links to the polygon positions.

Tony3d
02-19-2012, 04:22 PM
How does it help with something like this?
seems to me it would far easier to instance this in modeler not in layout.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/2001as/d931a232.jpg

JonW
02-19-2012, 05:06 PM
In effect you are instancing in Modeler by using layers as in my LWO in other thread.

One needs to find a balance, there is no point spending an hour cutting up an object & calculation parts to instance. Better to spend less time & keep it as one whole object, or an least a larger part.

Trees, grass & individual defined objects would be ideal to instance. Or instancing an entire house in a suburb or a patch of cobble stones.

In your image above you can instance all the grey fibres, it would be basically the same as instancing grass. Then one can instance the second 7x7x7 wire. But there in no point instancing for the sake of it, one will spend more time setting it up than it's worth.

Attached: there are about 4 patches of grass randomly instanced & the tree is instanced a few times.

eblu
02-20-2012, 01:39 PM
instancing only makes sense in layout. it all goes back to the "great divide debate" but to shorten it up: modeler ONLY addresses things made of polygons, points, and edges (ok, Newtek hasn't been very good about keeping it that way, but the exceptions are all done with trickery) instances... don't have "any" geometry. so to add instances to Modeler... would require pissing off all the LW users that came to LW before me.

Tony3d
02-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Well, then it's pretty much useless for what I do. May take a look at Modo, where the entire process takes place in one environment.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 01:57 AM
Instancing is more geared toward rendering, specially where you need alot of repeated objects.

For that picture you show, that would be a relatively easy build in Modeler, the clone and array tools would be what you want there.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 03:15 AM
Not sure what the specifics of what you need are, but I made this in about 10 minutes in Modeler (spent a while playing in Layout-11 though..hehe)

101954

I created a disk with 6 sides, copied /pasted, moved it above the original, cloned it 5 times with 60 degree rotation...repeated for each cluster. Extruded with 20 segments, then twisted them. The wire things around them, same thing..6 sided disk cloned (removing the ones that arent needed).

Tony3d
02-21-2012, 03:21 AM
This is exactly how I made what you see here. I'm just saying it would have been nice to build just one group of 7 strands then use instancing in modeler to finish the top cable, and instance the bottom one. Trying to set that up in layout would be ridiculous!

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 03:24 AM
Still not understanding why you want to instance it, I guess...hehe

Tony3d
02-21-2012, 03:53 AM
To drop the huge poly count. I have cables that would use another 8 bundles of the strands resulting in millions of Poligons per cable. This one has slightly over 1 million!

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 04:01 AM
hmm...make a cluster, and in a background layer make points where you want other clusters, then in layout use instancing using vertex...might work.

Tony3d
02-21-2012, 04:11 AM
hmm...make a cluster, and in a background layer make points where you want other clusters, then in layout use instancing using vertex...might work.

Thanks. I'll try that.

JonW
02-21-2012, 04:46 AM
Here is the centre group of 7x7 & a 2nd group of 7x7 on the edge Cloned & Rotated around a Null in 60 degree increments. Then you don't need to Copy, Paste & Rotate 6 times in Modeler.

Tony3d
02-21-2012, 06:09 AM
Thanks. I'll have a look at that. It just seems it would be so much easier to do this in modeler.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 01:43 PM
The thing is Modeler is made for Modeling..manipulating the verts and polys..there is no render engine built into it...Instancing is a feature of the renderer, so it makes sense that Layout is the place to do it.

Tony3d
02-21-2012, 02:10 PM
Do you realize how much easier it would be to build these cables in modeler already instanced then brought into Layout as any other model? What Newtek needs to do is dump this Modeler Layout metophor, and have one single environment as in Modo. I'll tell ya, the more I see of Modo the less I want to upgrade to Lightwave Eleven. I believe Newtek is heading in the wrong direction in this regard.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 02:27 PM
There are some advantages to a split system like Lightwave... One, you can model and render at the same time (provided you have the memory), two Layout is more compact without alot of modeling tools you'd never use in animation.

To be sure, I'd love to see more modeling tools, specially deformation type in Layout, but only those that you'd ever animate. Or those that are animation oriented, like weight mapping.

JonW
02-21-2012, 04:14 PM
I prefer to have Modeler & Layout separate. It's difficult enough with 100+ layers, plus all the plans, elevations & sections for an architectural model. The last thing I need is the rest of the scene open at the same time. LW does have a lot of other issues with this type of work. A typical gripe is using many different layers for different things at the same time, so to reasonably get around the problem I have another 30" screen with all the drawings (In the old days the walls & floor were covered with drawings, sometimes up to 20 at a time)

Each application will have different advantages which will suit different scenes more appropriately so it would be best to have a few different applications so one can get the job out as quickly as possible.

Even building a physical a few years ago. We started building & soon realised it was the wrong approach for this particular model. So we chucked it out & started again. If something is not working it's best to bite the bullet & use the right approach & get the best tools for the task at hand.

I am the only one who will suffer. It's not worth the frustration going around in circles & I want to get the job finished, out & paid ASAP.

cagey5
02-21-2012, 05:08 PM
Do you realize how much easier it would be to build these cables in modeler already instanced then brought into Layout as any other model? What Newtek needs to do is dump this Modeler Layout metophor, and have one single environment as in Modo. I'll tell ya, the more I see of Modo the less I want to upgrade to Lightwave Eleven. I believe Newtek is heading in the wrong direction in this regard.

All I'll say is watch this space. LW 11 has shown some significant updates that show their intention and ability at integrating what was leant from the Core endeavour directly into the existing Lightwave workflow.

What we see now is just the start and achieved remarkably quickly given the circumstances. I would be very surprised if LW12 didn't show significant steps to integrating the 2 programs, because it has been made very clear that that is the intention.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 05:18 PM
I am sure they are moving toward the original intention of Core, which was a unified app...and Its good that they are integrating as they are able to...We may even see a 3 sided app.. with the current two seperated apps and a third unified app...that would give us the best of both worlds.

cagey5
02-21-2012, 05:22 PM
...We may even see a 3 sided app.. with the current two seperated apps and a third unified app...that would give us the best of both worlds.

But also very unlikely.:)

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 05:38 PM
we can dream...lol

cagey5
02-21-2012, 05:42 PM
I think you'll get your dream, albeit it not in the form you envisage.

lwanmtr
02-21-2012, 05:58 PM
well if it goes unified, I wont mind too much...been preparing myself for that day since Core was first announced...hehe

Matt
02-22-2012, 01:27 AM
I believe Newtek is heading in the wrong direction in this regard.

I understand how useful instances in Modeler would be, but for the majority of what people need, it was essential to hit render instances first.

So I disagree it's the wrong direction, as we would still need render instances too, and they are more useful than if we had Modeler instances only.

Lewis
02-22-2012, 02:02 AM
This is becoming (again) separation vs unification debate all over again :).

While i model 75% of my LW time I'd still like unified app much more, there is simply so much more advantages than disadvantages (whcih coudl be zero if workflow/workspaces/gui made well) that's realyl pointells to debate about that with someone who "don't get it" :(.

As for modeling instances yes they are needed very much (you don't do let's say bridge rivets with layout tools/instancing, it's simply slow and PITA due lack of modeling tools and would be tons better to do it in modeling (in our case modeler) process like in many other apps) but I agree with Matt, better to have at least somethign NOW than nothing while waiting for complete (model/render) instances solution. Also instances should support any ITEM (lights, cameras,...) not just geometry. Let's hope they have plan how to do that in next update.

ncr100
02-22-2012, 10:45 AM
If you want separation, run two instances of LW12. Right?!