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View Full Version : Baking_all, yes, but not really a solution...



Hervé
10-19-2003, 11:45 PM
Just like the thread mentionned, it is not an ideal solution... I know coz that is what I am doing now.... so I tell you that just to prepare everything ready to bake, it took me a week (yes an entire week !) why ? because smoothing option in the surface panel is not friend with surface baker ! (not at all) So, in order to prepare the uv maps for baking, you'll have to work a LOTTT ! why I am baking 326 surfaces, around 200 image maps, 200 megs just the objects..... (64 objects)

So why sooo much extra work...? simple !!

One frame takes about 3 hours to render at pal res. (on a dual amd 1900+), and I have to render about 4,000 frames..... gulp ! So the direct radiosity solution is a no no way. Baking illumination was the solution... it takes now 3 minutes /frame... also there is no more flickering or so little...!

So what's the point...? obvious no?

NEWTEK, fix the surface baker.....
(this is the least you can do if you dont fix the renderer...)

I) make it multithreading
2) fix the need to unweld/weld for smoothing option (hardest part to do)
3) you could even make some sort of automatic process like a button that saiys (bake object- bake entire scene) or similar..

Now Archi-Lwer's, if you have any ideas share them here...!

Last not least I dont want to hear about soluyions that replace radiosity, they're all produce non stisfying results since they are always an approx solution...

also that maybe why there is no animations in the LW gallery or so OLD and so little... he he

Cheers, later
Hervé

PS. going to a render farm would cost, err... a couple legs...

RePS... Max6 is making so much noise in the archi area, I want to stay LW, but NT has to help...!

papou
10-20-2003, 05:12 PM
ok you can go to http://www.respow... hmm $34,641.93 .

NEWTEK, fix the surface baker.....(this is the least you can do if you dont fix the renderer...)
It's so true.

Hi, im not an archi-man, but i want Nt to correct that too and add the features Hervé wants.
And add Networking Baking too.

with that, i can wait lw8.x renderer improvement.....

spigolo
10-20-2003, 09:35 PM
I agree with Herve', and as I'm working with Max in these days for my architectural works (i need photometric lights) I had the occasion to test their baking system and it's much more easy and AUTOMATIC to setup.
Many times Newtek is the first to introduce new tecnology and for this I love them but later they let other people improve their ideas while they remain from where they started.

Sometimes the Microsoft approach (let the other have ideas than copy them Improve them and have a good marketing) wouldn't be bad, so if really we will not see any mprovements in the rendering area (still I struggle for Antialiasing improvements which doesen't means more passes...) I hope we will se a better baking system wuith the suggestion from Herve' and may be the simplicity that it has on Max

Hervé
10-20-2003, 11:18 PM
Thanks for sharing Papou and Spigolo....

I guess no answers at all from NT (like this thread does not exist) means generally they wont do anything... I could be wrong but I doubt... too bad..

Notice how many of archi people are moving to max...

LW is more and more dedicated for CA, thats why , I guess they had to choose a route.....

the worse is that I showed a few stills renders to a client, and he said OK for the anim, but now he's calling everyday, saying what's going on !!? I told you it would be long....

I first suggested a respower renderfarm, but the price they ask is ridiculous.... except disney or honda, no small client would ever pay that amount... add the fact that the result would not even be good for all this money.... lots of flickering.... and IF something goes wrong , you start to sale your car and house.... ha ha...

Dont know , but surface baker looks like an old fart... he he

Hey NT, sure baking a ball or a cube goes fast and people are saying OOOHHHH AAAHHHH !!!, now go for a real project with a couple million polys, then we talk again...

Have a nice day, for me it's wait wait wait... sometimes I feel tired just watching the computer doing, err...., well,.... baking... if only it would bake my morning bread ....

Hervé

Karmacop
10-21-2003, 01:11 AM
Newtek always reads the feature request forum I think. They'll only ever post if they want more information about a feature.

Don't think they don't care, it just may be too hard or not as important as other features.

spigolo
10-21-2003, 01:23 AM
Hello herve'
I had in the past the same problem you had, it's actually impossible to make radiosity animation with lightwave expecially with big projects, also baking it's an hard work.
Usually we simulate radiosity by placing accurately colored point lights and big spot with shadowmaps outside the buildings trepassing roofs to make the smooth appearance of shadows

I will put some pictures as example of a big animation we made

spigolo
10-21-2003, 01:25 AM
Onother example,
it's an hard work, and sometimes you have scenes with hundreds of light but it's very fast to render.

spigolo
10-21-2003, 01:27 AM
this was a 3 minute rendering with low AA

Exper
10-21-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
I guess no answers at all from NT (like this thread does not exist) means generally they wont do anything... I could be wrong but I doubt... too bad..

Notice how many of archi people are moving to max...

LW is more and more dedicated for CA, thats why , I guess they had to choose a route.....They read!

Chuck said in a previous Thread, I'll search for it, NT is working!
They started with CA and other stuffs but we'll see more in future!
Ok... we know and we hope... LW[8] will not be the last version... am I right?

LW unfortunately was stopped by the bad Lux affair!
I guess we all know it but the new developer team is working good (I personally don't use CA)!

Is NT a little deaf to advice, at now?
Can I see this from another point of view?
Yes... they're hardly working... little amount of time to speak and talk!
Give them a chance! ;)

Bye.

Exception
10-21-2003, 08:08 AM
As an addition to this thread (I hadnt seen it before), I just posted a suggestion for LW-Archi ers to implement Adaptive Mesh refinements in their list. With this option, we would be able to use LightScape like radiosity solutions... these bake really quick, provide excellent controlleability of quality and they are of course 100% animateable. check out the thread.

Hervé
10-21-2003, 11:40 PM
Well Well Well,what to say, First Spigolo.... yeah great job, I know this trick with tons of lights (I even have a small script someone donated to rig all the lightsand position them around...), I just dont like the feel of it, no deep shadows (produced by GI) and all the color bleedings are a guess... ( I dont critic your work here, just a general remark)

I have noticed that surface baker does a pretty good job, except the preparation of the UV spaces are very tedious (depend, but it was in my case...)

I really think if Surface baker was working as it is (that is just make an atlas uv and it will deal with..) then all the problems would be gone !

So dont worry NT? I'll upgrade anyway to 8, but I was just curious to see IF they would do even a little improvment on the baker side... then and only then I could maybe fly with the eagles... he he (they are flying pretty high today...)

Notice. I am just finishing baking an entire decor with EVERYTHING baked (even the trees, bushes, ALL !) I've almost finished... I"ve baked something like 125 maps, some are fully bked , some others just illumination (to keep the texture repeat, like for the walls) (btw, thanks Emanuele for all your support..!)

So, It should be finished in about a week....

Cheers, and thanks again to NT and the loyal LW'ers... !!

Later, Hervé

Hervé
10-21-2003, 11:42 PM
Did I say very nice job ? Spigolo, yes but here I say it again....

BTW, the scene I am working on is about 1,9 million polys... (that's also why it is taking me long...)

spigolo
10-22-2003, 12:34 AM
thank you Herve' for the compliments, I didn't post the example to have them anyway, it was just to say that there is an (Hard) possibility to achieve good results working by hands and with sensibility.

Of course real GI is another story, but sometimes I think that we have animated for years without it it's still possible to do good works without it.

In these days I'testing v-ray for animations and it seems to work with good rendering times (Don't worry Newtek will upgrade to LW8 me too!). Basically it's possible to save an irradiance map every nth frames (example avery 10 frames) and the rendering engine interpolates this map to calculate the energy in the inbetween frames. If you find a good compromise you have a radiosity animation that for standard scenes takes only 2-3 minutes for frame to calculate!!

Anyway NT is hearing us so I hope....

Hervè thanks again and please when you have finished post some pictures of your work, I'm very curious about it.

Ciao

Hervé
10-22-2003, 04:30 AM
Hey Thanks for your.... thanks hehe....

Well I do hope NT is hearing us, as well as other LW'ers that already posted these kind of requests....

Xssing Fingers....!!!!!

Cheers, Later...

Hervé

Lamont
10-26-2003, 04:45 PM
I have been thinking about this for some time. And I read an article about Final Flight of the Osiris (Animatrix) that they got the radiosity look by well placed lights, and each character had their own light rig surrounding them to simulate that nice soft glow.

So off and on, I have been tinkering with Max and Lightwave to get the same effect in a script. LW script builder is great sometimes, and the 3DS Max book I have is kinda cool, but is missing some things.

What I do is sample the area and use Kag Point to Lights for each light set. Each light set is controled by sliders for intensity, RGB and a couple of other settings. I then import that light setup into the scene I want to light. Works great, and WAY fast.

Tutorial time? I don't have 1.9 million poly scenes... but I can generate one with all kinds of surfaces...

kodomo
10-27-2003, 05:21 AM
hey Herve, you can try MicroWave from http://www.evasion3d.com/

it's great, much better than Lightwave's SurfaceBaker, and faster, and it works perfect with architecture work

Hervé
10-27-2003, 11:41 PM
But.... but Komodo, that is what I was thinking about, but when I e-mailed to Evasion, they told me "... using this plug just for baking is a bit of a waste...." apparently not...!!

I'll give it a try...

Lamont, thanks for your input.. I pretty much know about faking, but LW does radiosity since 6.0, and I want to use it... bouhhh bouh ouuuhh, sniff sniff, feel better, thanks...

At least it looks like Microwave is multithread...

Thanks a lot

jorbedo
01-07-2004, 02:03 AM
I got my Max 6, and I'm in love with all the functions just for architectural, AEC objects support, DWG file import, select the door (sliding, 2 pieces, pivot?) and opens the hole automatically, Surface baking, some clicks away and voila!, Radiosity rendering, getting better and better, no perfect but much better than Lightwave workarounds.

Another friend is heping me to make a universal scene and try it with all the different reder engines out there, LW, Lightscape, FinalRender Stage 1, Brazil 1.2, MentalRay, Max native radiosity, Vray and let see if we can get the integra plug-in for Max 6 soon.

I will post the results, pros and cons on every one.

Again, I know how much max cost, but I got tired trying to solve problems with Lightwave, I just make my move.

My perfect combination right now for the lightwave Archviz community would be: A killer plugin toolkit to do booleans like FormZ (Quads wise), Fixing the problem between LW 7.5 and Lightscape (Saving and reading texture params), if anybody knows how to do this, PLEASE post it now, you don't know how many people need this.

HOW TO MAKE LW 7.5 to accept Lightscape solutions like with in 5.6?. I have to reapply all the textures again every time that I need to open my lightscape solutions (Not very useful). I iwll love to use LW7.5 and Lightscape, it's like baking on stereoids (I know that it's not the same process, but....)

Just to be safe, Buy your Max copy know, REMEMBER it's about making money, your money, not how to be loyal to an application, if they can have a better solution, then they sure will have my money for the upgrade.

Hervé
01-07-2004, 02:26 AM
I am waiting a little bit, coz they said somewhere that my trusty LW will have a renderer that goes mucho faster without sacrifying the quality, and as you know lw Gi and radiosity rocks...!

So I'll wait and see....

Thanks for your input. I'd love in fact to see the result of different renderers.... are you going to post the results here... ?

Later, Hervé

jorbedo
01-07-2004, 03:11 AM
Hi herve, glad to hear from you again, my last post make a lot of noise, I went back to my LW dark cave for a while. But now I came back to see the light, and the light was called MAX.

Just joking, but yes, I choosed Max, and until today man I'm happy, very fast, very practical, AEC & DWG support, good radiosity, I hate how to modify a model in Max, but whatever, I'm just learning, the are completely different approachs.

It's the solution fro architects and Visualizers. But I'm waiting to put my hands on the next version of insight from integra.co.jp.

I don't know if you know something about it, Very, very fast, the only picky thing about it is the modelling approach, like Lightscape.

I think that I will continue to perfect my skills with the native radisoity render in Max 6.

About hte tests:
I iwll make the scenes available for Max, LW, Lightscape, pictures and rendering times. i'm thinking more about how to complete a task, like a living room, with doors, windows, textures, reflections (And how they affect rendering times) the pros and cons of every approach, and the final cost for us the consumers.

I think that our Archviz LW community, needs to stand up and ask for solutions, put some pressure on the Newtek team, we need real solutions, not more workarounds.

They cannot afford people moving to comptetitors.

In my case, I don't think to buy LW8 just for beatifull bones, clothes, and some dynamics, no more.

I will stay with Lw7.5 if I can get my LW to Lightscape connection working, i'm still looking for this.

See you Herve

Dodgy
01-07-2004, 03:22 AM
Given the number of people shouting for faster rendering, I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the thing they looked at for 8.1 or somesuch....

Hervé
01-07-2004, 03:23 AM
we tried to put a sort of pressure to NT's new team, but apparently, a big majority of users are doing CA only with LW, so I guess Nt had to move towards the biggest community, and last but not least, users complaining too much have been banned (like the poor Jin), so I dunno right now.... I am still confuse about moving to another app (in terms of learning curve), but IF I had to move, then I'll completly move to..... XSI.... I know Iknow, it's a bit of a challenge, but challenges are here to be taken... so Right at this moment of time, I am just waiting the next LW8, and then I'll see the light at the end of the tunnel, and then , and then, ..... euh... and then..... well, you get the point...

Cheers, Hervé.

jorbedo
01-07-2004, 03:41 AM
Herve, can you say how much percentage is your ArchViz business right now?, for me is like a 60%.

I tried Softimage, very good, but very very slow, i dont think that you want to go that way, you need a powerfull equipment to have decent rendering times.

In terms of usability nothign compare to LW, MAX comes second, Maya and softimage last.

I think that one of the reasons why ILM choosed XSI its because they already have a very large investment on Softimage, but here more important to money and license seats it's years of experience. you cannot be changing every 5 years. they just adapt or evolve.

For character animation, Maya and Softimage are very very good, but I thing that LW is closing the gap, slow but steady. I think that they have to look very deep, on thier weaknesses and make a very big push forward to be as good as Maya on evert aspect. Is just time and money. I don't care if I have to pay a little more for the next version of LW, but I want a World class solution.

It's like Newtek advertisement for LW8, "World Class" render, yeah, world class on the 90's, nothing new.

For me LW looks nothing more like the same old chassis/engine with a very cool body and new seats, nothing more like that, the are loosing their rythm. Now they have a lot of comptetitors, I don;t think that Newtek wold be Ok, if they start to loose customers.

I don't think that more than the 30% of LW customers already payed for the upgrade. I'm still holding, I don't want to make another mistake like LW7, I'm still hate the Fu..ing Hub.

herve what if we start an independent forum for LW Arch visualizers on yahoo groups?.

jorbedo
01-07-2004, 03:44 AM
If you get any chance to use the Microwave plugin, can you post your experiences?

I was playing the other day with worley G2, and I think that the best thing that LW can do ever it's to let others expand the renderine engine, then you can see progress.