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View Full Version : Lightwave 11 Particle limit of 1 million is breached! 2,5 millions



prometheus
02-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Well I noticed that I could apply hvīs on a subpatch object with 16 millions of points, so it renders 16 millions of points with hv sprites.

Now I did some checking on the particles, and yepp..lightwave 10 automaticly switched back to 1 million even if I put 2 millions in the particle limit..

Now in Lightwave 11-64 bit..no such limit...havenīttested how far I can set it thou..but 2.5 millions of particles works..takes a minute or so to settle thou when using vpr and hvīs.

Initially I thought the handling of particles was extremly slow, but that was when using a wind in direction mode and procedurals to drive it..If I instead use procedural directly in the particles velocity channels it works decently.

Image attached
VPR render...2.5 millions of hv particles.
if I tweak density and size down ..I might get a better look too.

They should have told us, or maybe they did?

How far can you push it?

Michael
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

zapper1998
02-06-2012, 01:53 PM
cool

Andrewstopheles
02-06-2012, 02:13 PM
hmm I want to test this for myself!

prometheus
02-06-2012, 11:08 PM
I reached 6.5 millions of particles, I had a full vpr preview animation render during g night, unfortunatly no render statistics, I need to go back and do the particle sim a little better thou before I show anything.

Iīll guess it can be pushed a couple of millions more..this opens up some possibilities indeed.

Michael

jameswillmott
02-07-2012, 04:50 AM
I reached 6.5 millions of particles, I had a full vpr preview animation render during g night, unfortunatly no render statistics, I need to go back and do the particle sim a little better thou before I show anything.

Iīll guess it can be pushed a couple of millions more..this opens up some possibilities indeed.

Michael

See how far it can go!

lardbros
02-07-2012, 05:31 AM
Hi James... was this purposefully changed for LW11? Or has it happened as a by-product of making other changes?

Will have to nag the boss for an upgrade to LW11 here at work too! :D

jameswillmott
02-07-2012, 05:37 AM
It was intentional. You guys deserve more than just 1 million particles.

lardbros
02-07-2012, 06:34 AM
Ooh, cool... thanks... you're right, we do deserve more! :D

prometheus
02-07-2012, 06:40 AM
This needs to find Itīs way(.Properly) to marketing feature details when Lightwave 11 gold is released.

Michael

rcallicotte
02-07-2012, 07:00 AM
Cool post! I'm sold.

-FP-
02-07-2012, 07:03 AM
There was a one million particle limit?
I'm retroactively outraged!
What if I had needed over one million particles?
I woulda been hosed, is what.

erikals
02-07-2012, 07:17 AM
you'd had to clone the emitter, that should do the job though.
so if you wanted 15mill particles you would have to have 15 emitters.

prometheus
02-07-2012, 07:22 AM
There was a one million particle limit?
I'm retroactively outraged!
What if I had needed over one million particles?
I woulda been hosed, is what.

Why bother with that now? that limit has been around for years, drop the cloak of displeasing things hanging over the shoulder..and everything feels lighter.

Now It is time to refine it even more, first the limit is crushed, now it only needs better handling (faster) and better ways to simulate low amount but render in high amount..perhaps take a look at krakatoa.
some enhancements with particle operator/flow tools would also be nice..

Michael

thomascheng
02-07-2012, 10:56 AM
I assume the limit was there as a safe guard to low memory machines, but doesn't apply as much today. Either way, it would be nice if the program would analyze the available resources and let us know how close we are to hitting our limit. Anything to avoid system crashes is a good thing.

dwburman
02-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Thanks for fixing this one, James. :D ^_^

-FP-
02-09-2012, 06:41 AM
Re:
Why bother with that now? that limit has been around for years, drop the cloak of displeasing things hanging over the shoulder..and everything feels lighter.

Uh... I was being fuh-seeshus

prometheus
02-09-2012, 08:44 AM
Havent had more time to investigate how far I can push it, 6.5 millions was the last test for particles, could be enough for nightcrawler bamf effects or asteroid "armageddon vapor gas"
The hard work would be to give nice dynamic turbulence effects to simulations.

I got up to 16 millions of points in my space angel experiments, but the sample on vimeo is only 4.7 I think. or even less..but this was with hv on vertices, not particles, but who knows what the limits are
http://vimeo.com/36095525

http://vimeo.com/35978253


some insight in the bamf effect wich seem to be rendered mostly out with
6 millions particles, they mentioned 20 millions, but I think that was splitted with the tool partman and composed toghether.
See excerpt below..from cgw
------
Nightcrawler provides the film's dramatic opening—an attack in the White House by a fast-moving, acrobatic, martial-arts maneuvering, blue-faced intruder. Each time the Secret Service takes aim, the intruder vanishes in a cloud of smoke. "It sets the tone for the movie, that it's bigger and badder than before," says Gregory Anderson, CG supervisor at Cinesite. "From the beginning, because Nightcrawler is a fast, agile character, we wanted to have a teleportation effect that reflected that, but the last thing we wanted was a cartoonish poof in which one frame he's there and the next frame he's gone." Instead, smoke trails off Nightcrawler as he dematerializes and a rush of smoke fills the void.

To create the effect, the Cinesite team started with a rough model of actor Alan Cummings that was fashioned using Alias|.Wavefront's Maya in six sections: head, torso, arms, and legs. Then, in Side Effects Software's Houdini, the crew filled the virtual volumes with particles that were rendered in Side Effects' Mantra using a smoke shader and Houdini's i3D volume rendering datasets. With the body in sections, the artists could control each volume to make him dematerialize all at once or have an arm or a leg lag behind. To make the smoke disappear, they pulled particles in the volumes inward and rendered the implosion with Maya.

The streaming smoke and the residual smoke were also created with particles and were animated with a fluid dynamic algorithm written by Jerry Tessendorf that was ported into Houdini as a particle operator and used as a turbulence field. To render a nearly impossible number of these particles—sometimes as many as 20 million—they used a proprietary tool called PartMan, written by Tessendorf and Bill LaBarge, 3D technical director. "We could render six million particles using 125mb of RAM and a general pass in 15 to 30 minutes per frame at high resolution," says Anderson. "This meant we could render the effects in multiple layers and recombine them in the comp." The compositing was done with Kodak's Cineon software.

To fasten the smoke to the live-action Nightcrawler, the compositing crew matched-moved the rendered output into a relative position, rotoscoped Nightcrawler, and then replaced his alpha with the render's alpha. "On top of that we did a series of 2D distortion effects," Anderson says. "As he implodes, we gave it a slight expansion outward before the effect and then collapsed it inward."

Last, the crew attached a CG tail to Nightcrawler for scenes in which he's moving fast; otherwise, the tail was a prosthesis. In addition to Nightcrawler, Cinesite also created Pyro's fire, the frost Iceman uses to freeze whatever (or whomever) he chooses, Cyclops's white "energy" beam, the atmospheric Cerebro with its ethereal floating images of the mutants, and a fiery "Phoenix effect" around Jean Gray at the end of the film. "This is a particle show," says Fink. "Some of Pyro's fire is practical, but when the fire is CG, it's made of particles. The frost is all volumetric rendering, and the Cyclops beam is a particle effect, too, that used PartMan for rendering. Also, because PartMan would render hundreds of particles so that they looked like millions without creating clumps, it gave Cerebro a true vaporous/gaseous look that didn't look mathematically computed."
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Michael

Netvudu
02-09-2012, 05:56 PM
For the last few years the big-leagues are resorting more and more to brute force point rendering as opposed to volume rendering for many effects because...well, because you avoid having to render volumes, duh!
If we can get into nice numbers that might give a lot of oomph to many effects. Certainly a point cluster generator at render time similar to Krakatoa would be a huge benefit for this kind of situations.

...and with this, I will end up this post full of stuff that everybody already knows :D

torturebori007
02-10-2012, 12:56 PM
This thread was freaking exciting!!!...from 2.5 million to 6 and then 16 million. was like reading a great book just shorter, lol...WOW!!! now I just need to learn how to use it, so I can do some stuff with it.

prometheus
02-10-2012, 01:21 PM
This thread was freaking exciting!!!...from 2.5 million to 6 and then 16 million. was like reading a great book just shorter, lol...WOW!!! now I just need to learn how to use it, so I can do some stuff with it.

well..6.5 millions is what I got for testing with particles, havenīt checked any higher yet, I have a buckload to do, but it might be able to get to 16 millions and even more pehaps.
16 millions was refered to render hv with points as a source.

Michael

Philbert
02-10-2012, 01:24 PM
I wonder if it's OK to discuss this outside of the LW 11 beta area.

lardbros
02-10-2012, 01:29 PM
Sure it's fine if James has posted :)

dwburman
02-12-2012, 11:10 AM
It's not illustrating a bug or crash, so it's fair game :)

Waves of light
02-12-2012, 03:07 PM
You guys blow my mind with some of the stuff you produce in LW. Just checked out your Vimeo vids Michael, interesting.