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papou
01-30-2012, 07:11 AM
I'm a head of a french vfx company.
I receive several job requests everyday.
Lightwave do not appear in any of them.
It's everytime Maya, 3dsmax, Zbrush.

...boring and hard to construct the future...

Nt are you aware about that gap?

Lwers, What is the status from your country?

50one
01-30-2012, 07:17 AM
Y, no surprise, maya and max are everywhere, they're more popular than gonorrhoea.

fablefox
01-30-2012, 07:37 AM
http://malaysia.3dworldmag.com/

90% uses maya. or something. too tired to read it again. but there are interesting numbers inside. and of course, the place where i currently study dropped lw for max. at least for students it's free. and we all know about industry marketshare.

kopperdrake
01-30-2012, 07:50 AM
Max and Maya are the packages being touted here, and more and more Blender.

But, if I were a VFX house then I would train the decent applicants up on LightWave if that were the company's tool of choice. If they want the job, then they must learn your preferred tool. A decent applicant will be good to go in a few months, they *should* be decent at basic solid modelling within weeks, and usable in a pipeline.

These are people fresh out of college/uni? Then they should be sponge-like, they should *want* to learn new stuff. If they don't then I would question their attitude and/or their long-term goals as a member of your team. Either way, they would likely be a bad investment for a long-term employee.

MarcusM
01-30-2012, 08:14 AM
People learn this commercial software because most companies using this, they can find job yeasier than lw users. Here in Poland 3d graphics with few years experience can even don't saw lw and don't read too much about lw. Job advertisements are full of requirements autodesk programs (game dev), maybe few times i saw lightwaver needed (tv,visualizations,advertising).
Marketing, advertising is too small compare to others soft and people choose this what is popular in industry... what have many actual tutorials and articles in internet.
When I come to my company one year ago they don't hear about LW, they need 3dsmax user (We make simulators, I also work with Unity all the time). But finally I convinced them too LW and it's soo nice :) I using lw from something about 12 years, now 11.0 pre, good know only two lw users, my old friend, one work in TV. Lightwavers are like Ferrari owners, we put heart in this and wish the best in developing :) If I could do something to make lw more popular in my country...

juice
01-30-2012, 08:31 AM
...when I was at Filmschool, my professor was asking all companies(Alias, Avid Softimage, discreet 3dmax, Adobe, maxxon,...) if they have authorized trainers and a learning program to show us the 101 level, before he was inviting awesome people from the industry... almost all had one in europe, only Newtek was not caring about that... there was some awesome Lightwavers from the industry in our school than, but people could follow better with the 101 and 102 courses in mind...

jasonwestmas
01-30-2012, 08:33 AM
Large companies set the educational standard, that's the reality of it. They have figured out a "Pipeline", several sold called formulas that usually include max, maya and Zbrush to do specific tasks. I think the whole idea that one app to rule them all is a forgotten myth in the minds of large companies now.

As a result Lightwave could indeed become more of a missing piece if it actually offered something that the big packages don't have in terms of workflow. Other than the easy to use render engine Lightwave has little to offer to make things better unfortunately. ICE and face Robot in Softimage two examples provide the tools to close up some of the gaps in advanced pipelines and provide that extra kick to speed up things when experimenting to get the vision that the artist has in his mind. This is no longer a game of I got this or I've got that but it's how flexible and fast the software can help you achieve effects that nobody has seen before or were difficult to achieve in the past. This is why SI, often makes it into the mix, especially for closeup cinematics and dynamic fx.

kolby
01-30-2012, 09:04 AM
In my country, 60% is Max, 30% Maya+XSI, 10% C4D, Blender and others. I know only three people here who uses LW. But a month ago I was asked by one highly experienced Max user to help him jump into LW. He like him because of the speed, simplicity and 3rd party developers. So who know ....

fazi69
01-30-2012, 09:12 AM
I will change my profession if LW will be no longer here :-) I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! Hate those stupid pictographs, scrollable menus, massive loading times and constant crashes. I rather be a welder or miner than 3dMAX operator :-) I`m just too old to rewire all my braincells around MAX or MAYA.

kolby
01-30-2012, 09:17 AM
I will change my profession if LW will be no longer here :-) I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! Hate those stupid pictographs, scrollable menus, massive loading times and constant crashes. I rather be a welder or miner than 3dMAX operator :-) I`m just too old to rewire all my braincells around MAX or MAYA.

Exactly ...

fazi69
01-30-2012, 09:37 AM
Here in Poland 3d graphics with few years experience can even don't saw lw and don't read too much about lw.

It is not so bad but not so good like in good old Amiga times when LW was king of the hill. If You looking for LW people in Poland You must do that on 3dMAX forum ( blasphemy ! ) : http://www.max3d.pl/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=132
There are few there.

I think that Newtek just loose marketing war. Product is good but it not have this " Avatar was made on it, transformers was made on it ...." fame important to many people who just want to try some 3d. Just look on any graphics forum and You will see : " What is the best 3d app ..." question everywhere. Lamers always think that what they see in cinema is just pure output of Maya or 3dMax .... moment when they realize that it all skills not tools is always way too far in terms of time invested in learning app appointed by other lamers as a best. They just stay in the camp and preach the glory of MAYA or MAX.

juice
01-30-2012, 09:39 AM
... I am very sure, in the freelancer marked there are more Lightwavers than Maya or Max users. Here in Berlin there are more Lightwave-Freelancers than Autodesk-Freelancer if you clean the statistic taking out the warez-users!! Of course, if somebody can give me a Ferrari with unlimited fuel,(Autodesk+Subscription) I dont say no if it is legal :-)

jasonwestmas
01-30-2012, 09:47 AM
Hmm I don't see any Lightwave freelancer jobs except the few that get posted on this forum. Must be an arch viz lightwave job board out there somewhere. I don't do archviz but that appears to be the popular thing for lightwave. That and a few TV fx studios.

50one
01-30-2012, 09:48 AM
Yip, it used to be a great bang for the buck deal, but now after the price increase and other packages catching-up....I'm still freelancing using it but looking at the other options at the moment.

JamesCurtis
01-30-2012, 09:52 AM
I'm a freelancer, and I do work for a Marketing Agency in another state delivering work by internet. I've been doing this for 4 years now. I use LW exclusively and am their 3D guy.

It's nice not having to drive to work.

realgray
01-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Yip, it used to be a great bang for the buck deal, but now after the price increase and other packages catching-up....I'm still freelancing using it but looking at the other options at the moment.

Your not the only one in this situation. If LW ends up being 695 yearly, then other options will definitely be looked at.

Cryonic
01-30-2012, 05:54 PM
Is LW going to a true subscription model or are they sticking with the numbered releases and upgrade pricing? If the latter, then it isn't $695/year, but $695 when features are released that you really want/need over the current version. Also, $695 is around 1/3 of the upgrade cost of Max or Maya.
As for ads not talking about Lightwave... Do the companies really care what software you use to model? or do they just list those products because that is what HR knows to list and they really don't care so long as it works?

jasonwestmas
01-30-2012, 06:05 PM
As a free lancer modeling and texturing package certainly doesn't matter. It isn't till I get into shading, rigging and FX networks that app specific needs are required for playing nice with others.

Shnoze Shmon
01-30-2012, 09:46 PM
I will change my profession if LW will be no longer here :-) I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! Hate those stupid pictographs, scrollable menus, massive loading times and constant crashes. I rather be a welder or miner than 3dMAX operator :-) I`m just too old to rewire all my braincells around MAX or MAYA.

hmmm...


<edit> I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! <edit>

hmmm...


I <edit> hate all Autodesk products.<edit>

hmmm...


I hate <edit> Autodesk <edit>

There we go!


I hate Autodesk

I hear ya!

jasonwestmas
01-30-2012, 09:51 PM
hmm. I like to get paid to work.

geo_n
01-30-2012, 10:27 PM
... I am very sure, in the freelancer marked there are more Lightwavers than Maya or Max users. Here in Berlin there are more Lightwave-Freelancers than Autodesk-Freelancer if you clean the statistic taking out the warez-users!! Of course, if somebody can give me a Ferrari with unlimited fuel,(Autodesk+Subscription) I dont say no if it is legal :-)

Maybe we should go to Berlin!! Never been there yet.
LA and Berlin seem to have more lightwavers still hanging around not yet switched to AD. Its no surprise that newtek is listening mostly to LA people when it comes to lightwave.
But looking at freelancer sites. Just post a job saying specifically lw artist only. You get maybe 10 artist and mostly modellers, archiviz. Post a maya/max artist only, you get 40+ artist capable of modelling, rigging, animation.

prometheus
01-31-2012, 03:46 AM
Good Marketing outside of US is required, special directions at schools, but that wonīt work unless the market says that is what we want.
Seems like an impossible task to nestle Lightwave in to the finer rooms.

For that ..the software needs to fill a void, if it isnīt a de facto standard tool like max and maya or houdini.

Luxology and modo managed to do that, and there are quite a bit of demands that you should have knowledge of modo for modeling and texturing.
Now ..modo isnīt such as complete software like lightwave, but it fills a void.

So somehow Lightwave needs to fill a void of some sort or become a de facto standard for many tasks.

Either by offering innovative tools that is very hard to come by with other softare, or become a such advanced software that can pull off anything of complex vfx.

Right now Lightwave seem to be still catching up, with a few exceptions.

The get it done, fast and enormous value for the price might not just cut it anymore when you talk to market or schools, and they say..no we want this to fill that void or we want this because it is already established to work well and has become industry standard.

One could ask a question on how to build up a reputation around the world about this product (Lightwave) indeed would work that way.

1. the product must have a good technology core..(Itīs on itīs way..but note quite there yet)
2. It must be quite stable...(not there yet)
3. Innovative features (lacking a lot unfortunatly)
4. speed and quality..Indeed..lightwave has a lot of that.
5 UI...ehmm...hard to say, needs more of customizing..docking panels etc.

Just some thoughts



Michael

Lewis
01-31-2012, 05:03 AM
Do the companies really care what software you use to model? or do they just list those products because that is what HR knows to list and they really don't care so long as it works?

From my experience they do more and more :(. Since lately they expect modelers to send them in ready models with UVs and textures in their animation package. I've had few job offers but meshes had to be exported and finished in Maya (some special UV mapping system made with 3rd party maya plugin they provide) or MAX (mostly game meshes but with smoothing groups which sadly aren't available in LW at all so *.MAX was mandatory).

So although i could model and finish 90% of those meshes in LW i couldn't finish them without Max or Maya :(.

tonyhall007
01-31-2012, 05:26 AM
Hi everyone
I teach Lightwave 10.1 at west notts college as part of the interactive media course, the students love it and do some really good work, but i have to say they are always asking why i don't teach them Maya or 3D studio max, currently in the UK there is hardly any colleges teaching Lightwave and it is a worry, but west notts and myself are dedicated to using Lightwave as i feel its the best 3D software around, i just wish they would push it into education more. Here is a link to a story that Newtek europe did on my classes. We currently don't delivery a full time 3D course, but have lots of units on various media courses that use Lightwave.

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/hall/1.html

MentalFish
01-31-2012, 05:48 AM
I attended this year's Game Jam and when I asked some Max guys why they were using that specific software they answered "because it is the best at poly-modeling" (not that they had tried any other though...). After some more digging around it turned out to be the software they had been taught in school and such became their tool "of choice". Telling them that XSI, C4D and LW are really good poly-modeling apps seemed to surprise them. :bangwall:

I plan on doing a local LightWave & Unity evangelizing, but I need to prep some coolio showcase for it.

lardbros
01-31-2012, 05:54 AM
This has always been an issue... they used to teach LightWave back in its peak at the university i attended... but by the time I got there, they were ONLY teaching XSI and 3dsmax. I bucked the trend and used LW anyway for a lot of things, but even 10 years ago people were going "You use Lightwave??... I didn't even know that existed anymore"

This is going to be a tough one to change. I think the issue ultimately lies with Newtek, and their poor marketing and development strategies over the previous decade or more. (Things are changing, but it's a MASSIVE job for the future!)

I remember in this forum someone from the UK complaining that Newtek Europe hadn't replied to them when they asked for a load of educational license for a university (we're talking A LOT of licenses here). I can't remember who it was, but eventually there was a reply from someone at Newtek Europe... too late though, being about 6 months later!!!

Newtek need to sort their employment out, I get the feeling that everyone tends to 'job-hop' and can't concentrate on one aspect of their work. Hence why, even when an important customer contacts them, they are probably working on something else entirely!

Fingers crossed with the new marketing guru this will change for the better! It's all about missing very good opportunities... but also trying to make more!! They are doing a better job with TriCaster... just hope they do the same with LightWave! :D

50one
01-31-2012, 06:06 AM
Marketing is great, don't forget it's holywood's best kept secret:) you just don't talk about the secret weapons...

Surrealist.
01-31-2012, 06:08 AM
I would think that if I was sending my child to school I would be rather enraged if I found out I was being asked to pay a hefty tuition for them to teach LightWave or Blender.

Presumably - like it or not - going to school is a financial choice. The bulk of the entertainment industry is centered around Audodesk products. You can say what you want about them, but it really boils down to the fact that they are the most widely used products on the market in the industry.

If I am sending my kid to school, I would first ask him what he wants to do with his eduction. And if his answer was he wanted to work in a large studio, I am sending him to a school that teaches Maya or Max.

If he says he primarily wants to be a great artist and work independently as a 3D artist, I am sending him to the best art and design school I can afford and set him up with something like Blender and send him on his way.

I think it is just the reality of the business and there is not likely going to be any major changes too soon.

But it is a world of choices. You don't have to work in a studio and use AD products. Money spent on a great art school is probably better spent, in that case.

MentalFish
01-31-2012, 06:12 AM
I still think that if NewTek copied Unity's license dealio with a free version and a Pro version, got rid of the dongle (so they don't disappear from the school over time), then it would be much easier for schools to choose LightWave, and people in general would be more willing/interested in giving it a go.

MentalFish
01-31-2012, 06:14 AM
But it is a world of choices. You don't have to work in a studio and use AD products. Money spent on a great art school is probably better spent, in that case.

:thumbsup:

lardbros
01-31-2012, 06:15 AM
I thought (might be wrong) Newtek did a network dongle license too... that solves any issues of theft!!

MentalFish
01-31-2012, 06:20 AM
I thought (might be wrong) Newtek did a network dongle license too... that solves any issues of theft!!

Ah... could be. But still, "Shuhh! dongle, shuh!..." :D

lardbros
01-31-2012, 06:42 AM
Ah... could be. But still, "Shuhh! dongle, shuh!..." :D

I really don't want to turn this into a dongle fencing war... but we love dongles at work. LW was the easiest piece of software to license! All the others require contact with 3rd party's and it's not good when you don't have an internet connection on your main desktop machine.

(Actually, Boujou was easy too... but it's also a dongle! :D )

Lewis
01-31-2012, 06:47 AM
(Actually, Boujou was easy too... but it's also a dongle! :D )

modo is dongle free and has even easier system (maybe they learned something from their past development on LW ;)) i.e. just license key so try that before you think LWs way is great or try to work if dongle fails in middle of process/deadline ;).

MentalFish
01-31-2012, 07:02 AM
Cord stub added due to paranoia of breaking the dongle. Icky...

But still, ye, LightWave in schools! Now! :agree:

jasonwestmas
01-31-2012, 08:48 AM
I would think that if I was sending my child to school I would be rather enraged if I found out I was being asked to pay a hefty tuition for them to teach LightWave or Blender.

Presumably - like it or not - going to school is a financial choice. The bulk of the entertainment industry is centered around Audodesk products. You can say what you want about them, but it really boils down to the fact that they are the most widely used products on the market in the industry.



I think I'd only be enraged if my kid was not going to be learning anything maya or max first. Anything additional is of course a bonus. That's how I did things 10 years ago. I used Lightwave and Zbrush any chance I got but I wasn't about to abandon popular software just because I didn't particularly care for a company's marketing strategies or the UI. Believe it or not Zbrush 1.5 was barely even talked about at the time but I loved what I could do with it even then.

So there is some hope for Lightwave to make it in where the bigger bucks are thrown but NT has to make some innovative adjustments to the heart of the software.

lardbros
01-31-2012, 08:56 AM
modo is dongle free and has even easier system (maybe they learned something from their past development on LW ;)) i.e. just license key so try that before you think LWs way is great or try to work if dongle fails in middle of process/deadline ;).

I have heard theirs works well... for our place of work, dongles work okay really. Actually, 3dCoat works nicely too... and thankfully Andrew Shpagin changed the network licensing after some quick email conversations... otherwise it would have made it unusable for us! VERY kind of him indeed...

Now.... back onto schools and LW! :D

djwaterman
01-31-2012, 09:03 AM
I still love LW and will get LW 11 sometime this year, but I'm furiously learning up on Maya because it is expected that you know and use Maya within this industry. Newtek haven't really recognized this and haven't worked hard at providing any kind of documentation on how to integrate LW with Maya, there is no official information about this despite their current boast about improving that integration for LW11. We are supposed to troll the various forums to find out how to do this, none of the FBX or OBJ exports from LW work in Maya, or maybe they do if there was some instruction about it in the help documentation. And Maya is not so bad once you get over the shock of the new, it has some nice things and some not so nice things. But yes, I stopped my part- time 3D teaching gig because the college I was working at swapped from LW to Blender this year. I can't blame them but if I have to learn another app it ain't going to be Blender so I chose Maya. I see LW as something I'll keep using for my personal projects, simply because my local industry does not recognize LW in any form so I can safely put to bed any dreams of finding a workplace that let's me play in LW all day.

Riff_Masteroff
01-31-2012, 09:26 AM
I have often used LW to analyze and find flaws with the output of Autodesk products. As long as I don't mention that I am using LW11, people are more interested in the flaws.

This is for the construction industry, and my findings very much relate to "money". Its far better to correct a project design in the early stages.

inakito
01-31-2012, 03:25 PM
Being a freelance artist, owning a small studio, or even running a big vfx production house, and not using Lightwave, it is simply a no brainer...
It is true that in some fields as character animation or massive and complex vfx simulations, Maya or Houdini can sort the problems out better than Lightwave but honestly, dont fool yourself, every single big studio in the world owns a license of Lightwave 3D.
It is also a proven fact people can get better results using Lightwave in less time than using any other software in the industry.
Lightwave is easy to work with and its render engine, simply fantastic.
Artist using other software and starting to use Lightwave are amazed of the render and shading quality from Lightwave. I am seriously seeing this daily... so what we are missing, at least in Europe, it is a better marketing service and support from Newtek to get the software the place it desserves...
I teach computer graphics at uni and I teach Lightwave 3D, and I am seeing how the industry is slowly changing, and much more people are demanding people who can take the job from beggining to end, finishing on time, making it look good... and the answer for them is Lightwave 3D.
Industry is changing and we are here to make it happen. Regards from Spain

erikals
01-31-2012, 03:59 PM
Schools teaching Lightwave in Norway = Zero... \:[

vector
02-01-2012, 05:04 AM
Well, I think the V 11 maybe a new beginning. Very nice new features and people working hard in its development... nice results show LW potential to the world... and that is our task to prove Lw is good enough :)

Vector

Shnoze Shmon
02-01-2012, 05:56 AM
Newtek haven't really recognized this and haven't worked hard at providing any kind of documentation on how to integrate LW with Maya, there is no official information about this despite their current boast about improving that integration for LW11. We are supposed to troll the various forums to find out how to do this, none of the FBX or OBJ exports from LW work in Maya, or maybe they do if there was some instruction about it in the help documentation.

Have you read the "What's new in LightWave 10.1" pdf?

An entire section explains the improved export from LightWave to Maya.

kopperdrake
02-01-2012, 06:52 AM
I will change my profession if LW will be no longer here :-) I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! Hate those stupid pictographs, scrollable menus, massive loading times and constant crashes. I rather be a welder or miner than 3dMAX operator :-) I`m just too old to rewire all my braincells around MAX or MAYA.

On a very similar note, I once had a client years ago who tried everything to get me to learn Max as he could throw as much arch viz work my way if only I would work in Max, his package of choice (despite me bailing him out with LightWave so many times after having been let down by the Max user he used). Having already used it in games, I knew I plain detested the work flow. My answer to him? "I would rather milk goats and make cheese than use Max". Still here, but the cheesecloth is on a shelf waiting.

Rayek
02-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Last year I was called into a college by the owners for an informal discussion about which hardware and software to purchase for their new 3d course.

They asked me about which software to install - and I mentioned all major 3d apps. "What is used most in the industry", they asked me. Of course, I could lie, and tell them to install Lightwave, Modo, etc. Obviously I think about what would give the students a head-start, and they had their minds set on Apple (though I advised against that), so Maya was the answer for them. Then they agreed, telling me enthusiastically they had heard about Maya. And Max, of course. In the end they went with the best iMacs, Maya, and (surprise) Blender (they had heard good things about that one as well, and it was free, so why not install it side by side).

We have to realize that without creating awareness about Lightwave and good marketing, there is a good chance that it will whiter and die. The fact is that NO student of mine ever heard about Lightwave (it is all maya, max, zbrush... with a surprising number of people in the know about Blender now)

Lightwave lives on for now because of its older user base. Newtek must start attracting young ones. But like stated earlier in this thread, it is difficult: only with the newest killer features can you make headlines, and lure in new people. Why do you think Blender is getting more and more popular lately? Because of all the eye-catching new features (which are worked on by young up-and-coming developers!)

And honestly, last time at Siggraph Lightwave had no presence at all. It is sort of embarrassing for a company to be out-marketed by all the others in the business (with the main player in the market actually starting to to some counter-marketing against the open source player).

...and one of the best schools with one of the best programs I ever taught in went belly up a year ago. Why? No marketing. Student numbers dropped, and almost no-one I knew was aware of this great school and their awesome program. Newtek, take note.

erikals
02-01-2012, 01:33 PM
 
They need to push companies to use Lightwave,
maybe even sponsor companies to make kick-*** Lightwave animations, for then to show them off later on.

a couple of renders (Terra Nova / Iron Sky) is hardly enough...

They need to focus more on character animation, VFX, improved modeling and UV tools, and update the render-engine, or integrate Octane into Lightwave.

but i've been saying this stuff for years... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry039.gif

let's see...

 

jasonwestmas
02-01-2012, 01:51 PM
I agree with the integration part but I think LW first needs to offer something that the other packages don't have.

Rayek
02-01-2012, 01:55 PM
True - how can Lightwave differentiate itself from all the others? Look at Houdini, for example: it focuses on being the best app for technical directors/technical effects.

What is the showstopper for Lightwave - or what can be marketed as one? Or even two?

jasonwestmas
02-01-2012, 03:19 PM
True - how can Lightwave differentiate itself from all the others? Look at Houdini, for example: it focuses on being the best app for technical directors/technical effects.

What is the showstopper for Lightwave - or what can be marketed as one? Or even two?

You mean THE show stopper that Lightwave is equipped to prevent completely, that other brands aren't equipped for? Hmm, that is hard to say tbh. I can think of a few things that I really like about Lightwave modeling and rendering, but I can also think of many, many more things that it needs for animation and dynamics workflow and interactive enhancements. So it certainly isn't animation fx that I think LW excels in.

The rendering isn't enough to make LW appealing as a package unless it does something radically different to make the pipeline more connected and interactive previews for the entire pipeline, not just the first half of it. That is kind of why I was excited to see the compositing workspace in core and lots of cool nodes that were mysterious as well.

Though the dynamics are a great addition, these are just addons, they don't really put LW ahead of other implementations of the same tool set types.

This is part of the reason why I thought abandoning a new work environment was kind of a mistake but I understand NT is small and can't support two 3d apps soooo, there we go. Anyway I and others are still curious about what NT plans on doing to improve these areas of the workflow and the very interactive heart of the software.

lardbros
02-01-2012, 03:22 PM
Trouble is the pre-conceived ideas of these people is VERY important. If Newtek or their marketing dept just go... "well they can think what they want, we know LW is great"... they have a point, the software is great, BUT if no one knows, then what's the point. Adverts in 3dWorld every month is a tiiiiny help. In reality, a large-scale marketing campaign is needed... so far every attempt at marketing has been lacklustre.

Even the VFX Minds event... yes impressive, but Newtek decided to have the ENTIRE video up on the site, rather than the bits that are eye-catching or impressive. Decisions like these are made because they recorded all the video, and the event cost a lot of money, so they HAVE to show the whole thing! Poor decision, whoever made it. It was an interesting vid, but I'm in the industry, and take more of an interest in LW... if I didn't I wouldn't have got anywhere near the gorgeous LW bits!

Anyway, I've been saying this for nearly a decade in here... things are changing, but at a sloths pace... the larger players are generally further ahead with their marketing strategies and planning.

People at work are surprised quite often when I show them relatively simple features... but it's things that are so tricky to do in anything else. I had to do an explosion recently, and had one knocked up using Hypervoxels, in around 20 minutes... while our client was still in a meeting in our office... I had stuff to show them already! :)

Anyway... I digress... I think Newtek need to do a lot more to help educational facilities... that's the key! I remember telling a tutor at uni (Chris Williams, who used to run Animex here in the UK) that I was going to use Lightwave, and global illumination for my animation (nearly 10 years ago), and he didn't know LightWave was still available, and had no idea it had GI in it... let alone it being the first to utilise HDR maps for lighting! Ah well... things haven't changed much since then! :)

erikals
02-01-2012, 04:00 PM
maybe they should contact some of these guys and use this for their marketing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9oD1hZCMM&list=PL36DAD32935586C03&feature=plpp_play_all

 

Rayek
02-01-2012, 04:23 PM
You mean THE show stopper that Lightwave is equipped to prevent completely, that other brands aren't equipped for? Hmm, that is hard to say tbh. I can think of a few things that I really like about Lightwave modeling and rendering, but I can also think of many, many more things that it needs for animation and dynamics workflow and interactive enhancements. So it certainly isn't animation fx that I think LW excels in.

This is part of the reason why I thought abandoning a new work environment was kind of a mistake but I understand NT is small and can't support two 3d apps soooo, there we go. Anyway I and others are still curious about what NT plans on doing to improve these areas of the workflow and the very interactive heart of the software.

Well, what is Lightwave current IDENTITY? I agree with you that the new work environment could have put LW in the spotlight, and modernize the (arguably) old-fashioned and rigid GUI.

This was pulled off by the Blender community, and, although development of its feature set was stalled for a year of two, the dividends are showing now, with a host of new eye-catching features being integrated, including a completely new mesh engine for n-gons, and the cycles render engine (which looks a lot like VPR). It is quite startling how fast things are getting done now.

On the other hand, I love the instancing in LW11, the hyper voxel tech (funny that got mentioned), the new fiberfx stuff, and so on. It seems focusing on one app sped up development again for Newtek.

But still, with most of the other main players on the 3d market I know their "identity", or rather their presence of character - how they position themselves in the market. (C4d: motion graphics/graphic design; Houdini: technical 3d fx; maya: goliath/film/animation; max: goliath/games/characters/architecture;blender: david/open source/generalist; etcetera.

With Lightwave I can't really pinpoint a defining characteristic (anymore). It's a general purpose 3d app, like the others, though if anything it used to be known (and still is up to a certain extent) for its broadcast delivery. That's kinda water under the bridge now.

Check out http://www.newtek.com/solutions-lightwave-menu.html

Archviz has a motorcycle. I would expect some great architectural visualization. Games has one silly looking indy game. Design a personal film short - not what I would call a design project (the motor cycle would make a better fit). The Print category showcases a project that could have been done much faster in Photoshop. Where are the infographics examples? Those would be a good showcase for print.

Film category: no showcase at all: "hang on tight". Excuse me?

Only the television category makes good sense to me. Even Newtek is utterly confused how to market their product: their showcase pages are fragmented, and do not create a coherent identity for Lightwave.

If anything, Lightwave's identity could be retraced to tv show production. Perhaps that is the way to go? Introduce LW to schools as THE general purpose tool used in effects, animation and virtual shots on television, where a quick turn-around is required? I have read many stories how Lightwave out-performs other apps in this area.

speismonqui
02-01-2012, 05:02 PM
Check out http://www.newtek.com/solutions-lightwave-menu.html

Archviz has a motorcycle. I would expect some great architectural visualization. Games has one silly looking indy game. Design a personal film short - not what I would call a design project (the motor cycle would make a better fit). The Print category showcases a project that could have been done much faster in Photoshop. Where are the infographics examples? Those would be a good showcase for print.

Film category: no showcase at all: "hang on tight". Excuse me?

Only the television category makes good sense to me. Even Newtek is utterly confused how to market their product: their showcase pages are fragmented, and do not create a coherent identity for Lightwave.


that's funny, I get nothing! just the games section showing William Vaughan's fun&go. The other ones just "still bold" text, no images, no article. I'm running Mozilla 10 btw.

djwaterman
02-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Lightwave more than anything needs to define it's marketing, and it needs to forget about the current user base and history and look at it's future user base. If Lightwave dropped out of the sky tomorrow completely new and unknown and you handed that product to a good marketing team do you think they would have a problem marketing it? They could make it seem so sexy, fast and production ready with a hot website and loads of helpful tutes and docs. Instead we have what has been described so well above. There is already loads of cool edgy art and video done by people on these and other forums, I never see anything as good used by Newtek, well some is good but they need to just show exceptional stuff. I never doubted the product, all apps have flaws anyway, I'm learning to love Maya but it has some problems also. Newtek simply must get their marketing strategy on track. I don't know what their identity is, but they have to figure out what it is and sell it.

lardbros
02-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Haha.... I thought they would have updated the website by now. Newtek's web presence has always been a bit poor... but right now it's the lamest excuse for a website I've seen for a long time. The LW stuff is poor... and you can tell they don't even employ real copy-writers to write the text... very lacking in attention to detail. It probably feels like a waste of money to the management, as it can seem like a bottomless money pit, but it pays off... if they are willing to have a good web presence... alas, they seem to take a lot of persuading to change their old-fashioned ways. I think Rob P has managed to swing some of their crazy old ways, but having much more time spent on decent documentation etc... but it has to take a man on a mission rather than good management for this to happen! Rob P is that man (on a mission)! :D

lardbros
02-01-2012, 05:20 PM
Lightwave more than anything needs to define it's marketing, and it needs to forget about the current user base and history and look at it's future user base. If Lightwave dropped out of the sky tomorrow completely new and unknown and you handed that product to a good marketing team do you think they would have a problem marketing it? They could make it seem so sexy, fast and production ready with a hot website and loads of helpful tutes and docs. Instead we have what has been described so well above. There is already loads of cool edgy art and video done by people on these and other forums, I never see anything as good used by Newtek, well some is good but they need to just show exceptional stuff. I never doubted the product, all apps have flaws anyway, I'm learning to love Maya but it has some problems also. Newtek simply must get their marketing strategy on track. I don't know what their identity is, but they have to figure out what it is and sell it.

I agree with every word! Well said... and i hope someone is listening! :D

djwaterman
02-01-2012, 05:40 PM
Have you read the "What's new in LightWave 10.1" pdf?

An entire section explains the improved export from LightWave to Maya.

I can't find it anywhere on the site. While I was there looking I noticed they have made some small changes here and there.

inakito
02-01-2012, 05:49 PM
Sorry, but LOL. Ladies and gentleman: the "Speed Myth" in full effect. :) Bra-vo!

There is nothing "proven" because you CAN NOT "prove" that! You might find an "example" for this case, and someone else brings an example for that case. I know... little complicated to grasp. It's "proven" if you find one case many, many times more than another, and wow! You'll have a hard time doing that in regard to LW's speed! There is no laboratory where you can prove it, or calculate it or whatever... it might be the perception you get from what's going on around you, but if someone else makes a different observation... what then? Show of hands?

I somehow believe that generalizing like that ('Uh, LW! So fast!') is what brought LW to being used mainly in the mid and low end of the industry (with the occasional exception).

ers among them) and the software package is never a topic of heated discussions - on the contrary, I'm happy that most artists seem to be interested 'to know'. Not neccessarily 'use', but they want to see the difference, and that close to never leads to a 'mine is better' discussion. Helps learning what's so interesting in other tools as well, btw...


I have my proof that other tools with the right artist are just as quick as LW with the right artist - and I'm not talking about projects needing the - also legendary - "TD army". Picking one or two simple tools where you have to click twice in LW and 5 times in Max do not always have a big impact, hard to believe, right? I met hellish fast Maya modelers, Max modelers (still can't believe it), even great Maya modelers becoming great Max modelers in a few days time... guess... it must be the artist after all. :)

So, can we please stop this stupid speed myth?

"Speed Myth"? I think pipelines changed ON PRODUCTION recently such as Iron Sky, I do really think it is no a myth but a fact, and seriously, talking about Terranova, 24, CSI and so many other series or films where Lightwave is being used in the last 5 years are not low end industry at all. On top of that I wold say there were not for sure a legion of programmers behing every single mouse click on these productions...
And one last quick thing about modelling in Maya... did u ever ask a Maya Modeller if he or she were modelling using single or double side polys? And in the case they are using double side polygons... can we considered them good modellers after all?
I am afraid but I can not agree with you at all that Lightwave superfast worflow and render is a myth... sorry

Rayek
02-01-2012, 05:54 PM
Lightwave more than anything needs to define it's marketing, and it needs to forget about the current user base and history and look at it's future user base. If Lightwave dropped out of the sky tomorrow completely new and unknown and you handed that product to a good marketing team do you think they would have a problem marketing it? They could make it seem so sexy, fast and production ready with a hot website and loads of helpful tutes and docs. Instead we have what has been described so well above. There is already loads of cool edgy art and video done by people on these and other forums, I never see anything as good used by Newtek, well some is good but they need to just show exceptional stuff. I never doubted the product, all apps have flaws anyway, I'm learning to love Maya but it has some problems also. Newtek simply must get their marketing strategy on track. I don't know what their identity is, but they have to figure out what it is and sell it.

Completely agree.

jasonwestmas
02-01-2012, 05:59 PM
Lightwave more than anything needs to define it's marketing, and it needs to forget about the current user base and history and look at it's future user base. If Lightwave dropped out of the sky tomorrow completely new and unknown and you handed that product to a good marketing team do you think they would have a problem marketing it? They could make it seem so sexy, fast and production ready with a hot website and loads of helpful tutes and docs. Instead we have what has been described so well above. There is already loads of cool edgy art and video done by people on these and other forums, I never see anything as good used by Newtek, well some is good but they need to just show exceptional stuff. I never doubted the product, all apps have flaws anyway, I'm learning to love Maya but it has some problems also. Newtek simply must get their marketing strategy on track. I don't know what their identity is, but they have to figure out what it is and sell it.

righton, it's the lack of identity that bugs me the most about LW. When I look at other applications I know EXACTLY what I want to use it for and I don't really have to look too hard to figure that out. It takes a long while to really understand any of the strengths of lightwave outside of Rendering and that is only because I've used it so long, not because it is obvious from one of two videos like so many of the other apps are.


Lightwave = Fast rendering setup with above par results. Renders output fairly quickly if you know what you are doing. Nodal control balances complexity with simplicity well. This is mainly true because we can use a nodal level of control if we need it but isn't always required. Nothing else really utilizes this form of nodal power in lightwave unfortunately.

Softimage = Nodal ICE fx that works with everything in SI. Dynamic character setups and extreme control in this area without having to know scripting.

Maya = TDs and scripting persons love it to death. May take more time to set things up but just about anything is possible if you know your stuff.

Max = Kinda like the same reasons as softimage but has tools that are more ready to be used (character studio and CAT) out of the box, complete with animation layers, file swapping and mixing that works with pre-built rigs immediately. Definitely geared for speedy setup and mass-editing despite the goofy UI.

Messiah = Takes some of Lightwave's strengths and ideas and makes them better immensely. The deformations feel very organic immediately without much setup. Very friendly script editing system in the command tab. Animation Tab is a joy to use imo.

geo_n
02-01-2012, 06:47 PM
"Speed Myth"? I think pipelines changed ON PRODUCTION recently such as Iron Sky, I do really think it is no a myth but a fact, and seriously, talking about Terranova, 24, CSI and so many other series or films where Lightwave is being used in the last 5 years are not low end industry at all. On top of that I wold say there were not for sure a legion of programmers behing every single mouse click on these productions...
And one last quick thing about modelling in Maya... did u ever ask a Maya Modeller if he or she were modelling using single or double side polys? And in the case they are using double side polygons... can we considered them good modellers after all?
I am afraid but I can not agree with you at all that Lightwave superfast worflow and render is a myth... sorry

Reading the Ironsky blog at Liberty certainly gives one an impression that lightwave is fast and maya is slow. But this is coming from one who is super good in lw working with "subpar" maya artists. It would be the same with a super good maya/max artist working with "subpar" lw artist.
Personally, I believe there are certain things one app is faster/easier in doing things. Lightwave is fast at some workflow but very very poor at others.
Importing mocap data is super tedious in lw. Lack of procedural modelling tools. Read this comment from a veteran lw user about mass revision.
http://faulknermano.com/blog/2011/12/19/tools/

Lightwave on the otherhand has an advantage in asset creation having direct access to polymodelling tools without the need to go to the subobject level. This shouldn't be underestimated and saves time.
But this will definitely change when modeller and layout are merge and will function like Core.

jasonwestmas
02-01-2012, 06:47 PM
Well, what is Lightwave current IDENTITY? I agree with you that the new work environment could have put LW in the spotlight, and modernize the (arguably) old-fashioned and rigid GUI.

This was pulled off by the Blender community, and, although development of its feature set was stalled for a year of two, the dividends are showing now, with a host of new eye-catching features being integrated, including a completely new mesh engine for n-gons, and the cycles render engine (which looks a lot like VPR). It is quite startling how fast things are getting done now.

On the other hand, I love the instancing in LW11, the hyper voxel tech (funny that got mentioned), the new fiberfx stuff, and so on. It seems focusing on one app sped up development again for Newtek.

But still, with most of the other main players on the 3d market I know their "identity", or rather their presence of character - how they position themselves in the market. (C4d: motion graphics/graphic design; Houdini: technical 3d fx; maya: goliath/film/animation; max: goliath/games/characters/architecture;blender: david/open source/generalist; etcetera.

With Lightwave I can't really pinpoint a defining characteristic (anymore). It's a general purpose 3d app, like the others, though if anything it used to be known (and still is up to a certain extent) for its broadcast delivery. That's kinda water under the bridge now.

Check out http://www.newtek.com/solutions-lightwave-menu.html

Archviz has a motorcycle. I would expect some great architectural visualization. Games has one silly looking indy game. Design a personal film short - not what I would call a design project (the motor cycle would make a better fit). The Print category showcases a project that could have been done much faster in Photoshop. Where are the infographics examples? Those would be a good showcase for print.

Film category: no showcase at all: "hang on tight". Excuse me?

Only the television category makes good sense to me. Even Newtek is utterly confused how to market their product: their showcase pages are fragmented, and do not create a coherent identity for Lightwave.

If anything, Lightwave's identity could be retraced to tv show production. Perhaps that is the way to go? Introduce LW to schools as THE general purpose tool used in effects, animation and virtual shots on television, where a quick turn-around is required? I have read many stories how Lightwave out-performs other apps in this area.

I agree.

Thanks for the link, it shows NT is thinking about their brand and what it does for the industry but. . . I kinda cringe when they say extreme things like "Because all aspects of the program, from modeling and animation, to texturing, lighting and rendering, can be mastered by a single artist. And, you can customize LightWave to work in any production pipeline."

There is no mastering going on in Lightwave, that is why it is faster, it is used to fill the areas that don't necessarily need mastering. Using tools that master a certain effect require more knowledge and time.

This is why I choose to use Lightwave and other applications as specialty programs because I can then use them for their own strengths when I need them, not cram a square peg into a round hole BECAUSE it's FASTER or vice versa.

TBH I really don't care for me personally as a freelancer what program does the most for the money, I just want speed and quality to balance themselves out and I find using different packages together help to achieve that. That is why I support NT when they add those tools that help connect the packages together. It's more expensive that way but I can't see myself living without Zbrush and 3Dcoat together, they just do thier own thing in a powerful way and I'd hate NT to think they can out perform what they do. Same with Softimage and Motion Builder. They do what they do.

What does Lightwave do, I think it should capitalize on the strengths that are already in there otherwise they just get lost in all the mediocrity.

On the other side of the tracks I understand that there are larger studios that want a "DO A LOT" package for a reasonable price and I can pretty much say with certainty that max, maya and xsi are hard to beat in that category. They pay for themselves when doing bigger projects. I just don't see how lightwave can compete which is why I keep stressing that LW's strengths need to step up and make itself known. Saying things like, oh it's just faster at everything or some things isn't going to convince anyone. The words modeling, animation and rendering are very generic terms too, they aren't convincing.

SubDProxy
02-01-2012, 07:22 PM
IMHO, schools aren't using it because they cannot provide it free to their students and to bring in students it is all about what the industry is using. I know it said it somewhere in this post about using the Unity road map. It is a great idea, but with Unity 3D you don't get real-time shadows and something else. Not sure what but I think it is something else.
What would you leave out of Lightwave 11 to fit the Unity 3D road map?

I work in games using Lightwave. Yeah, I know holy cow games? Lightwave? Yep, we use it for game objects and cinematics. Why? Because it is the fastest and easiest for us. We have a guy that uses Maya but is learning Lightwave because he thinks it is really freaking easy to model compared to Maya. He is fast in Maya but I can't wait to see how fast he gets in Lightwave. Another thing is to know some modeling skills. An expensive program doesn't mean you know how to do anything. IMHO!

I wish Newtek would start pushing towards the game market because it is really easy to create objects and my programmers like it a lot better. When I create an object in Modeler and bring to Layout, set up the scene and export it out; it looks great. As long as I name the layers in Modeler, the different objects come into Unity with the correct names. Using Maya we have some issues. Unless the Modeler goes in and combines all his objects into one object and renames it there will be lots of floaters in the game engine. Names like polycylinder01, polycylinder02 and so on. Well, you get the point.

My name is Glen and I make video games for desktop and mobile applications. I'm a Lightwaver. Please Newtek, start opening up more towards the game market.

Glen

jasonwestmas
02-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Low detail mobile assets aren't a surprising subject for Lightwave actually. I use modeler for video game stuff too but these days it's only part of 1/3 of the modeling and surfacing pipeline for unity. I'm also using Zbrush, 3Dcoat, Xnormal and sometimes xsi 6 for faster tweaking and welding. Then I have to get the normals correct in max. Granted I'm making 5-10K triangle creatures.

erikals
02-02-2012, 06:14 AM
My name is Glen and I make video games for desktop and mobile applications. I'm a Lightwaver. Please Newtek, start opening up more towards the game market.

Rob Powers said on 3 months back NT is coming full-force towards the game market, so let's see what they do.

i expect UV enhancements, but more so modeling enhancements.
(the question is if NT will do enhancements to the modeling part while at the same time making a new unified 3D app,... or will it be one or the other).

 

SubDProxy
02-02-2012, 06:28 AM
Rob Powers said on 3 months back NT is coming full-force towards the game market, so let's see what they do.

i expect UV enhancements, but more so modeling enhancements.
(the question is if NT will do enhancements to the modeling part while at the same time making a new unified 3D app,... or will it be one or the other).

 

I hope so! I have been lucky to work in a studio that started the team from the ground up. We have been using Lightwave to create the game assets and it is working great!

Glen

COBRASoft
02-03-2012, 02:32 PM
As far as I know, there's a school in Belgium teaching LW. I have no idea about the difficult level or the name of the school, but at least, it' still here :).

skywalker113
02-04-2012, 07:46 PM
My high school taught 3d animation using Lightwave. It's actually how I got into 3D. Carson High school.

Greenlaw
02-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Personally, I believe there are certain things one app is faster/easier in doing things. Lightwave is fast at some workflow but very very poor at others.
I totally agree. There was a time when I felt I could do anything faster and better in Lightwave but I no longer feel this way.

Lightwave is still my primary 3D application but when I got involved with making my own motion capture movies, I had to look elsewhere for retargeting and editing the data for LW. Working with mocap animation using only Lightwave is just way harder than it needs to be.

Thankfully, NewTek made huge FBX I/O progress during the 10.0 and 10.1 development that allowed me to use other programs seamlessly with Lightwave. If that never happened, I probably would have given up on Lightwave. LW 10.1 went a long way in restoring my faith in NewTek. I'm starting to think the day will come again when I believe that Lightwave is all I need to do my work.

Actually, if they would just take care of that offset weight issue with joints (weight associated with child joint) and go back to the 'industry standard' system they started with (weight associated with parent joint,) I would be ECSTATIC about having stuck with Lightwave, because this one little fix would pretty much eliminate Maya from my pipeline.

And being able to paint weights and corrective morphs in Layout would be an awesome bonus. :)

G.

Greenlaw
02-04-2012, 10:06 PM
I almost derailed this topic didn't I? Sorry 'bout that. I'll try to get it back on track now. :p

At my workplace, we were exclusively Lightwave for over 10 years and mostly happy about it. It was a fairly recent event when we switched to Maya for character animation. We were actually content to keep using LW for CA but in recent years it became a struggle to find good Lightwave character animators here in Los Angeles.

We still hire LW generalists for almost everything else but even that pool seems to be getting smaller. Lately it's gotten harder to find people who can light a scene well in Lightwave, and most importantly for us, quickly and efficiently.

So, getting back to the topic, yeah, I don't think schools are teaching LW. Sadly, I think LW became a harder sell for schools because it had fallen behind in so many features. Even popular web-based training sites like Digital Tutors don't offer Lightwave training.

That said, I think NewTek has been on the right track lately. First they need to make LW competitive again, and 10.1 was a great start. 11 seems to be continuing that momentum, and maybe by 12, LW will back in the industry spotlight. And when that happens, more talented people will want to learn it...and be hired by people like us.

That's my wish anyway. :)

G.

DigiLusionist
02-05-2012, 01:08 AM
I once made my living using LW, and, at times, teaching it at area colleges here in San Diego. I started using LW in v5.

Sadly, that time has past. I can occasionally find work using Maya to do character animation, but even then, I can't find a full-time job doing that here (too many lay offs at area game dev studios).

I am looking for a full-time position as a LW Generalist, but I rarely, if ever, see LW as the tool being used when I read the job listings.

erikals
02-05-2012, 07:09 AM
And being able to paint weights and corrective morphs in Layout would be an awesome bonus. :)

check WeightPaintTool,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHDOn35bVY

and Tweaking Polys in Layout,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdBQBVw4kI

 

Greenlaw
02-05-2012, 10:22 AM
check WeightPaintTool,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHDOn35bVY

and Tweaking Polys in Layout,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdBQBVw4kI 
Yes, I've used Weight Paint and LayoutMeshEdit. They're good 'proof of concept' demos but a bit too simple for heavy production use. (Also, they're only available in x32 but that's beside the point.)

If I recall correctly, WP doesn't work with LW joints, which really limits its usefulness for me. All my mocap rigs use LW joints for full Motion Builder compatibility. (Well, they're mostly compatible anyway; having to correct the weight offset issue in Maya before going to MB and requiring extra dummy joints for FBX export is getting pretty old.) And I think LayoutMeshEdit doesn't work for editing morph targets, but it's been a while since I tried it with a rigged and posed character so I might be wrong about that.

What's interesting about these tools is that they clearly demonstrate that LW has been capable of these features for some time, just never fully developed for it. It would be awesome if somebody picked up these ideas and carried them forward as rigging tools.

BTW, where LayoutMeshEdit has been useful to me is in setting up camera mapping and shadow catcher objects. For this, LME has saved me a hours of work on a couple of jobs. :thumbsup:

I haven't found a really good way to edit corrective joint morphs in LW. Lately, I've been taking advantage of the new 'auto-update' feature introduced in 10 to improve feedback. It's still awkward tweaking a morph target in Modeler and checking the results on a mesh deformed by posed joint-based rig in Layout but being able to see the tweaks by simply pressing 's' is somewhat helpful. It's okay for simple corrections but I lose patience with it for more complicated edits. Also, it takes a huge amount of desktop space since you need to see both Modeler and Layout at the same time to do this. (Forget about trying this on a laptop screen, which is where I do most of my personal LW work.)

It's things like this that make me wonder why I'm still keeping so much of my CA work in LW. Well, I know why--it's because I like LW's simplicity. But 'simplicity' doesn't have to mean incomplete.

Sorry, didn't mean to rant. I actually love using Lightwave but sometimes it doesn't seem to like me very much. (Also, I think Maya totally hates me.) :p

G.

cybernaut
02-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Lightwave was the first 3D app I learned at one school which apparently switched over to Maya.

Next I learned Maya at a private school which apparently switched over to Max now.

lots of changes.

jasonwestmas
02-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Lightwave was the first 3D app I learned at one school which apparently switched over to Maya.

Next I learned Maya at a private school which apparently switched over to Max now.

lots of changes.

Hmm, weird, most schools I've been to teach at least two animation and rendering packages.

cagey5
02-06-2012, 12:32 PM
I can't find it anywhere on the site. While I was there looking I noticed they have made some small changes here and there.

It should be in your registration download area.

prometheus
02-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Lightwave was the first 3D app I learned at one school which apparently switched over to Maya.

Next I learned Maya at a private school which apparently switched over to Max now.

lots of changes.

So why donīt you learn 3d max then? can you see the logic, they might switch over to Lightwave?:)

Michael

Greenlaw
02-06-2012, 01:11 PM
FWIW, you can never know too much 3D. Even though at work we're primarily a LW crew, depending on the job at hand we may also use Maya, Max, XSI, Houdini, and Vue. We also have artists who use ZBrush on our projects, and I often use my personal licenses of 3D Coat and Modo at work.

Greenlaw
02-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention Fusion. In recent versions, we've been using this 'compositing' program for 3D as much as anything else. :p

shrox
02-06-2012, 01:16 PM
Marketing marketing marketing marketing.

Max is better at marketing than it is at 3D. (well, in my hands anyway...)

lardbros
02-06-2012, 01:18 PM
Yeah, couldn't agree more Greenlaw... I use 3dsmax, sometimes LW, Vue, SpeedTree, 3DCoat, Mudbox, Sandbox 3, Deep Exploration, vr4max, Virtools... and the list grows each year! That's just the 3d stuff :D

Always good to learn as much as possible, so you can save time by choosing the best for the current task at hand. Autodesk have the lions share of the userbase, but things change rapidly... look at how Modo has become a staple modelling tool for many studios!

LaughingVulcan
02-06-2012, 03:20 PM
I will change my profession if LW will be no longer here :-) I just hate all Autodesk products. ALL OF THEM ! Hate those stupid pictographs, scrollable menus, massive loading times and constant crashes. I rather be a welder or miner than 3dMAX operator :-) I`m just too old to rewire all my braincells around MAX or MAYA.

^ Seconded.

Richard Hebert
02-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Well, with the few comments that I've read... I suggest more Lightwavers become the EMPLOYER and kickstart a trend in the industry. Time for the slaves to become the masters.

Richard

shrox
02-06-2012, 04:40 PM
Well, with the few comments that I've read... I suggest more Lightwavers become the EMPLOYER and kickstart a trend in the industry. Time for the slaves to become the masters.

Richard

I am Spartacus!

thomascheng
02-07-2012, 12:02 PM
Here my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Max = largest general market share, which includes everything from architecture, engineering, games, tv, film, etc.
Maya = large market share in film and tv.
Lightwave = large market share in TV.
c4d = commercials and motion graphics.

The 2 apps that will have the latest and greatest over the next 3 years will probably be LW and Max. They are pumping out quality features at a high speed. I see Houdini and XSI in similar camps, but AD doesn't seem to pay much attention to XSI. So I see Houdini pulling ahead in terms of FX work.

LW can excel on small teams and therefore they should focus on markets that can utilize this. TV, indie films, indie games, commercials, student projects, freelancers, etc that can utilize a small team can excel with LW. Let schools know that they can get students to produce great work in a short time if they use LW. Hopefully, with what they learned in school, this will carry LW into other markets. I really really hope that NT steps up in the marketing department, because it is very important. If we take the GOP race, the candidate that spends the most on marketing themselves and making their opponent look bad is the winner. It's sad, because merit is just not enough. You need both.

speismonqui
02-07-2012, 02:07 PM
Max is better at marketing than it is at 3D.

loved it! :D

renderwerx
02-07-2012, 03:48 PM
I think LightWave's popularity could be, as mentioned
due to a lack in self-promotion, perhaps and as well as
marketing management at heart of NewTek staff.
I may be forgiven if that's not reflecting the truth of
actual facts.

The 3D software market is a battleground and a
mine-field with that NewTek, has to deal also on
top of that with another big contender
the Open Source applications which are moving
at a strong and determined pace towards furure.
Take Blender for instance, the most powerful 3D
Open Source software at the moment.
I see a BIG bright future for Blender. That software
will blaze some commercial apps from the market.
sure thing....

On the flip-side, I however think also that LightWave
could be perhaps partially be misunderstood in what
it is capable of. And not just that. Design schools
seem to have a somewhat enforced Monoply game
running co-operated by without mentioning names...

If NewTek is clever enough to wipe the slate clean
and by that I mean re-structuring for an equal
agressive marketing campaign to gain a pole position
over their competitors, then we will see lightWave
firing up again.
I have confidence in LightWave and the past has
shown that it is still a leader in some aspects, a
suddle one but a real one, as many movies have
had input from LightWave.
My advise for NewTek would be to re-classify what
LightWave really is. If a lot of people say it lacks
on animation for example, then OK, then it is perhaps
not to be classified as THE animation software but
perhaps more a visual effects application.
Just for example. Don't flame me on that example
I know many say otherwise.

I use LightWave 7.5c. it does really work very well
for me and my needs. At the moment I really see
no need to upgrade aside from render-speed, but
for that I found Blender Cycles Render to be the
solution at the moment. I think it's not a bad thing to
say.

I truly hope that NewTek has already seen the
issues they are encountering at this moment and
hope they are taking the appropriate actions.
I don't want to see LightWave disappearing from the
surface like Caligari trueSpace. I mean it.
Tri-Caster and the like are professional tools aimed
at professionals, yes, but perhaps NewTek needs
to split their product line in two. One for LightWave
and one for video recording and editing.
It could be THE solution.

regards
Dominik
and still... a happy Lightwaver

mborge
02-09-2012, 01:24 AM
First, this forum depresses me with truth.

IMHO - there are very interesting things about LW and I do love it as it was the first program that really made 3D accessible to me but, I fear that it's hard to justify an ongoing cost of $495 while they work out their issues with Modo nipping at its heels at a lower cost. (Expect char rigging in 6.0). I won't lie - MODO IS LW REBORN. Some of it's best features are stolen from LW and I use modo because, it feels like LW in many respects - but, NT isn't the marketing machine that is Luxology. Lux sells it all...training, content, etc. seems like every week, there's new training, tools and press. That's growth. Then there's Blender - just plugging away. FREE and gaining. Yes, I hate the control scheme but, it's frelling free and it seems to work with every independent game engine of any account. Moreover, Modo and Blender are "SEXY". They're cool, young, and current.

So what? - Here's what I think -
Now, more than ever, Lightwave needs to go after the independents. The people who are just ambitious enough to create something worthwhile that the "BIG" guys wouldn't think of and by so doing bring fame and fortune to the LW name.

If I was NT and getting my @#$#@ handed to me by an all consuming Corporate Empire, I'd throw a frelling hammer through the their image! I'd be cool and slick. The all important sexy non-conformist! I'd certainly ditch my dongle and old-school licensing for more enticing and flexible options. My name would be all over YouTube sponsoring fanboy films - cause, I'd be pushing the idea that if you want to be an independent success you can't do better than use LW - proven for small teams/TV cause Ligtwave is sexy, cool, and rebellious enough to stick it to the man.

I'd Secure the television and internet market by grabbing new and aspiring independents and short film makers by offering discounts for credit. Cause, LW doesn't have a chance against Maya/Max unless someone uses it and makes cool stuff (and money) that gets viewed and credited back to LW.

Start with the Scifi channel - their Syfy originals' graphics suck but, geeks still watch (I confess).

Attack Youtube! Offer incentives and training to young artists and schools. Hold contests. Hell, hire strippers to wear LW attire at every comic convention and nerd fest accross the country. Even better, have those babes teach/demo LW to attendees and get some on youtube doing a vlog on fx. Promote/Show cool short films etc then have howto's showing how to use LW to create the effects and use the tools. Provide training that matters - meaning WORKFLOW/PIPELINE videos showing lightwave used for Game Asset creation with unity and Torque etc. (more kids want to be game designers/dev than directors - show them how), Videos highlighting how easy and powerful the 3D-Coat to Lightwave workflow can be etc. Create a youtube channel that shows how to go from LW to AfterEffects for all kinds of cool stuff. Show how real rendering is done using Post tools for cleanup etc.

Take the time to invest in and teach the fanboy community and the community will be loyal. Inspire them and they'll sell your product for you with their creativity and obsession. Create a cult of all things Lightwave. Because right now, there's very little being openly attributed to LW. Where's the next Bab5, Firefly, BSG? - and more importantly, will it be done with LW?

It will if NT realizes that the secret to their success is simply having the right presence/howto's on the forums that matter. When I buy Unity - do I find tutorials that use LW?! If I search Youtube for how to rig and import a character into Unity, I'm not going find LW coming up first but, I would if NT had a clue.

Kionel
02-09-2012, 11:38 AM
I still think that if NewTek copied Unity's license dealio with a free version and a Pro version, got rid of the dongle (so they don't disappear from the school over time), then it would be much easier for schools to choose LightWave, and people in general would be more willing/interested in giving it a go.

:agree::thumbsup:

I've actually been putting together a presentation to offer myself up as a 3D modeling instructor at a local community college. My biggest worry isn't my background as an instructor (though it's been over ten years since I was a teacher, I still have the chops) nor is it the cost of a 5 seat license for LW in the classroom (Newtek has a really good rate for that). Nope, my concern is selling the school on using Lightwave at all. In a metro area where Autodesk reigns, being a Lightwave user is a very, very lonely experience.

Heck, I just interviewed for a position with a Fortune 50 company that is developing video games to help promote better living. The 3D package of choice for this astonishingly wealthy company? Blender. Heck, the only reason I got the interview is that I have enough Blender experience with 2.x now that I don't look like a total dolt. Neverthless, when I mentioned that Lightwave was my primary package, I got a dull, cow-eyed stare. Only when I said "Ever seen Terra Nova?" was I able to relate the package to something they'd know.

Difficulties aside, LightWave is still my favorite 3D package. I'm not going to walk away from it until there comes a time where I can no longer find a way to use it for my paying customers.

Oh, who am I kidding? Even if that day were to come, I'd still use LW for my personal projects. LightWave is the creative tool I enjoy using the most, popularity be damned.

(And at this point I feel like I should say "Hi, my name is Tony, and I'm a LightWave user...) :)

OnlineRender
02-09-2012, 11:46 AM
Kinda what cinema do they sponsor a lot of indie artists ...but you can't just thriw everything at the one genre it need to be counterbalanced with some high end work ...ironsky terranova ext but you can't whore the same content boxed differently ...nt have a bad habbit of doing this until people get bored of the sight of it ...needs to be banging ,fresh and hip_happening. Games market needs to be a key focus also ,but what'd the point if they don't gave the basic infrastructure atm

erikals
02-09-2012, 01:19 PM
...when I mentioned that Lightwave was my primary package, I got a dull, cow-eyed stare. Only when I said "Ever seen Terra Nova?" was I able to relate the package to something they'd know...

this is why i hope to see LW more used in more hyped / kicking movies / commercials.
the people with the cash only snap up those kinda things, it's also really important for them to brag about the 3Dapp to customers.

if they can't brag about LW, then they are much less likely to use it.
sorry, but that's how that stuff works, i should know, i've worked with those people.

 

bobakabob
02-09-2012, 04:18 PM
:agree::thumbsup:

I've actually been putting together a presentation to offer myself up as a 3D modeling instructor at a local community college. My biggest worry isn't my background as an instructor (though it's been over ten years since I was a teacher, I still have the chops) nor is it the cost of a 5 seat license for LW in the classroom (Newtek has a really good rate for that). Nope, my concern is selling the school on using Lightwave at all. In a metro area where Autodesk reigns, being a Lightwave user is a very, very lonely experience.

Heck, I just interviewed for a position with a Fortune 50 company that is developing video games to help promote better living. The 3D package of choice for this astonishingly wealthy company? Blender. Heck, the only reason I got the interview is that I have enough Blender experience with 2.x now that I don't look like a total dolt. Neverthless, when I mentioned that Lightwave was my primary package, I got a dull, cow-eyed stare. Only when I said "Ever seen Terra Nova?" was I able to relate the package to something they'd know.

Difficulties aside, LightWave is still my favorite 3D package. I'm not going to walk away from it until there comes a time where I can no longer find a way to use it for my paying customers.

Oh, who am I kidding? Even if that day were to come, I'd still use LW for my personal projects. LightWave is the creative tool I enjoy using the most, popularity be damned.

(And at this point I feel like I should say "Hi, my name is Tony, and I'm a LightWave user...) :)

Newtek should bite the bullet, seriously undercut the competition and get their software into cash strapped educational establishments. It's the future. Auto desk understood this in the uk, practically giving their software away and look where they are now.

prometheus
02-09-2012, 04:21 PM
an extreme price decrease of school educational licenses perhaps?

Michael

bobakabob
02-09-2012, 04:23 PM
Absolutely, they have everything to gain getting young creative minds hooked on their software.

prometheus
02-09-2012, 04:30 PM
should be a bundle with lw-cad and turbulencefd too ..of some sort, if newt can make a good deal with the third party developer.

Michael
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

mborge
02-10-2012, 02:46 PM
this is why i hope to see LW more used in more hyped / kicking movies / commercials.
the people with the cash only snap up those kinda things, it's also really important for them to brag about the 3Dapp to customers.

if they can't brag about LW, then they are much less likely to use it.
sorry, but that's how that stuff works, i should know, i've worked with those people.

 

:agree: - And to think I wasted all those words trying to say this.

It's all about the hype. It's all about fresh minds and new creative projects... and yes, it's about looking cool to their business buddies or buying whatever their magazine mentioned as hot!

That hyped up "Apple Style/Sex Appeal" has certainly worked for Modo! (It's really just Modeler on Steroids with a lingerie interface and other sexy bits thrown in. :hey: )

NT on the cover of Fast Company with sexy girls holding a LW 11 box = World Domination! :D

fablefox
02-10-2012, 08:29 PM
I think LW must follow what others have done - wink wink to a sector they no longer care. SideFX give away for free, and the files you made can be converted later on when purchased full product. autodesk give it away for free to "students", while i don't know about file conversion. even cryengine and udk, and unity, is now given for free (with unity a limited, but can be used commercially). it's all about vendor lock down from the grass root. they know they can't fight piracy, but they can make sure that all these people, once go commercially, uses their product.

i don't really know how cryengine and udk is going to enforce their license, specially for people who don't pay $99 (in case of udk) and sell their app (but not making much sales).

LW11 student must be free. at least free to student version LW10 owner :-)

fablefox
02-10-2012, 08:33 PM
i don't know if i mentioned it here before. but sadly, i might the one involved, or caused my school to move to autodesk.

they were using LW. and one day, I ask them for a letter proof so that i can apply for autodesk student program (my school don't give *.edu emails for students). they asked why i need the lette, and i tell them about the autodeks student program.

fast foward a few weeks - LW was dropped. and now i can see my school listed under autodesk student program (previously i wasn't, hence i have to ask for letter of proof).

thomascheng
02-11-2012, 12:27 AM
Free education is great education. Get LW into schools for free! Student editions should be free edition. Just need a valid student ID as proof. Their license should only last 1 year and then they will have to display proof again. For this to happen, you will have to move away from the dongle system.

Kionel
02-11-2012, 04:03 AM
Free education is great education. Get LW into schools for free! Student editions should be free edition. Just need a valid student ID as proof. Their license should only last 1 year and then they will have to display proof again. For this to happen, you will have to move away from the dongle system.

:agree::thumbsup:

Of course, I LOATHE the dongle system with an unholy passion, but that's another discussion altogether.

Alternatively, a very deeply discounted dongle version might be all they need to do. Eve. $75.00 to $100.00 would be perfect.

Surrealist.
02-12-2012, 06:32 PM
Free education of anything 3D would be a great idea.

For that I think Blender would be a better choice. More updated CA for one. Educational versions of AD products are easy enough to get. Then there is the internet, libraries etc.

Today there is no shortage of available free software and free education. So there is no real need in that area for its own sake.

But just to say sending the price down would get LW into schools is not enough. Not only that for a school to bite on that would be a disservice to the students. It is not about money. The recent PMG "dare to share" debacle should teach that alone. That site a year later is like a ghost town and the developers are MIA. So what happened to all the new users?

Just lowering the price of software is not enough. The software has to have the tools that are being embraced by the larger workforce. LightWave has a place in the industry. It has a place based on its strengths and that is how it is used now. It is rarely used - in a broad sense - as a main tool to get the job done. AD products are much more in use. But there is a reason for this. And it is not becuause of the educational costs. It is because of the use in the workforce.

Teaching the current state of LightWave is not going to change that, nor lowering the price or making it free for students.

What will change the state of LightWave is for NT to continue going methodically in the direction they are going and complete the transition from LightWave of old to the new "CORE" version of LightWave 11,12,13, etc.

Even then it will take some time for it to become more embraced. And even then given the infrastructure that is in place you have a very tough argument for teaching it exclusively in a school and charging money in my opinion.

At 1,495 per seat LightWave is a bargain. But you do get what you pay for.

To do the best service for students you have to teach what is being used.

Look here at the Dave School curriculum:

http://www.daveschool.com/index.php/program/program-overview

That is a fair cross-section of apps.

I think it would behoove a prospective teacher to get a hold of AD ED versions and learn them, then present a program that includes LightWave with AD. As things change for LightWave - or if they actually do - you'll be in a position to take advantage.

geo_n
02-12-2012, 07:44 PM
Free education of anything 3D would be a great idea.

For that I think Blender would be a better choice. More updated CA for one.

With its quirky workflow and non general way of doing things, its not a good foundation for 3D. The same is true for messiah. Its just wierd workflow maybe that's why you don't see many people use it even after the Dare to Share promo. But I didn't know pmg forums was a ghost town now.
Even the most advance or latest doesn't always succeed as people expect. Technology always has a trend favoring what's been established for sometime. Search engine, electronics, etc.
XSI is not toppling maya, max in marketshare at all even though its super advance tech.
One way for lw to succeed is make it as easy to use as possible not trying to be overcomplicated, yet powerful. Even if it copies some workflow from other appz as long as its the standard, proven way of doing things, people will not be turned off and actually give lw a chance.
Right now the biggest turn off is modeller and layout being separate. There's just too many limitation with this workflow.

Rayek
02-12-2012, 10:20 PM
With its quirky workflow and non general way of doing things, its not a good foundation for 3D.

Say what you want, but after seeing the last two front covers of 3d World sporting "it" and the other major names at the top of those covers... I completely disagree with you.

Seems they *are* doing something right, and its popularity is reflected right there on the front cover and in the content of 3D World. In my opinion, this is not about personal opinions which 3d app is best or worst - it's about being *recognized* as a viable alternative in the industry and beyond. "It" is taken up by many newcomers (as well as experienced users), which negates the argument whether or not it proves to be a solid 3d foundation. Seeing the quality of the work produced in "it" lately, I'd rather think the point is moot.

The last two 3D World covers are a sign of what's "trending" (oooh, how that word irks me) - and at that with the editors being fans of LW!!!

So, however you look at it, the trend is that Lightwave is dissolving into obscurity, and almost none of my students have heard of it - while they all know about the big two/three/four, the open source variant, and, of course, the sculpting app.

I am a firm believer of "the evolution theory of the software species", which states that only a limited number of 3d apps can co-exist in a limited niche market as ours. "It" is one of the new species, and it is driving out other species (Truespace being one case of extinction). Lightwave's population is dwindling (as far as I can tell as an instructor at some design colleges in Vancouver).

It is a very simple equation: no young adopters of LW = no future in LW. The way I see it, LW is a bit of a dinosaur, and it's first attempt to evolve into something innovative and exciting to survive in this small niche market was a complete and utter failure - in more than one way.

I (and, as far as I have read in this thread everyone here) like(s) LW - yet even the most ardent of believer can see the signs, and now is the time for Newtek to somehow reverse the flow. Again, I do not think it is solely about the feature set - Lightwave's identity in this market is unclear. The website is chaos. The marketing is vague and lacks direction and a singular focus. And as a result, over the last five years (or longer) it has lost its momentum.

And at this point in time, and it pains me to say this, Lightwave is definitely not "the topic of conversation" in the 3d market. "It" is, along with the "industry-standard" apps. The new higher price of LW, as well as the new features that were added, are just Newtek following what others have been doing, and as long as Newtek is following, and not carving out its own unique innovative path, it is not going to lure in either new users, or users of other apps. Heck, I am still in two minds whether to upgrade or not from 9.6. Why would I? Give me a compelling reason! I'd rather invest in software that offers me innovation (and is less expensive to boot).

Of course, this is my personal take on things. That is what I feel is happening, and no-one can say whether or not a singular package is a good foundation for 3d or not - I just realize that many newcomers (young AND old in my experience) grab hold of whatever is "mainstream", "trending", "what my friend told me to try".

Question remains: how to stem and reverse the flow of LW falling into obscurity, and have Lightwave become part of the market discussion again. I do think time is against Newtek, and something must be done asap.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2012, 10:35 PM
Lol, messiah, Zbrush, max, SI and maya ALL have a weirdness BETWEEN them. Weirdness is not a reason to scoff something off, especially with 3D software. I have yet to see any 3D program that didn't seem weird to me at one time. Now that's different from bad workflow. Bad workflow is what it is.

Surrealist.
02-13-2012, 12:02 AM
With its quirky workflow and non general way of doing things, its not a good foundation for 3D. The same is true for messiah. Its just wierd workflow maybe that's why you don't see many people use it even after the Dare to Share promo. But I didn't know pmg forums was a ghost town now.
Even the most advance or latest doesn't always succeed as people expect. Technology always has a trend favoring what's been established for sometime. Search engine, electronics, etc.
XSI is not toppling maya, max in marketshare at all even though its super advance tech.
One way for lw to succeed is make it as easy to use as possible not trying to be overcomplicated, yet powerful. Even if it copies some workflow from other appz as long as its the standard, proven way of doing things, people will not be turned off and actually give lw a chance.
Right now the biggest turn off is modeller and layout being separate. There's just too many limitation with this workflow.


Actually, when you evaluate Blender as a standard, it is quite on solid ground. It's concepts and terminology borrow heavily - and in some cases are a direct steal - from Maya and Softimage.

As for Softimage, you are right. It is superior in many ways than Maya, but Maya wins out, for a lot of reasons not worth going into here.

As for Messiah, frankly, it is the worst thought out interface and workflow I have ever seen. I'll agree with you there. However it has some great functionality.

But it is rather quiet these days and development is as I said MIA. You can visit those boards to see what I am talking about.

Blender on the other hand as a development team that is active and alive and communicative. The Blender community is alive with plenty of pros to give you answers within minutes. Feature threads are often visited by Blender Foundation developers who listen feedback and get involved.

There is no comparison at all between Messiah and Blender. The one thing Blender is suffering from is sporadic development and many features yet to be ironed out.

Another strong point about Messiah is that it is extremely fast for animation in the viewport. One of the things that drew me to it. Much faster than Blender by a long shot.

Sure every software has its quirks. That is by the nature of things in general. Nothing can be perfect and still function, or it would never get done at all. And we'd all be waiting in eternal development for anything to ever get released.

From what I have seen, to me, Softimage is the king of the hill in all areas bar none. That is my opinion.

And I am not a real big fan of "Tool Bags".

If I was to suggest one app that does nearly everything out of the box for the beginning student, it would be Blender hands down. The learning curve for modeling, texturing, painting, scultiping, rendering, compositing, would be miles shorter than any other combination of apps. You could have a first year course in Blender alone as an introduction to 3D.

And many of the concepts and terminology learned in Blender would be found repeated in other apps.

From there a student could branch out and specialize and tackle software with a steeper curve such as Softimage, Maya, or Max, Zbrush, Mudbox and so on.

After that, since LightWave is so easy to grasp- especially once you learn the other software - you could offer it for a few quarters and then get students up to speed so they are at least familiar with it in case they get hired at a studio that uses it in the pipeline.

With this kind of line up. Blender for a year to get grooved in on the basics of 3D and then the AD products along with an option LW course would be an easy sell for parents.

geo_n
02-13-2012, 12:25 AM
The last time I touched blender was 2.5 alpha more than a year ago. I was using 2.4 for a month on a paid fluid project and it was tedious selecting polys and viewport navigation. I remember using mmb, rmb a lot like messiah in stuff that's commonly done with lmb. With navigation, use maya navigation, its established, less kb/mouse to use. Basics shouldn't be different for the sake of it. Just like lw navi was inferior for having multiple keys pressed for navi. Its a good thing someone made a script to make it maya navi. Only a die hard lw'er would say its superior to press ctrl,alt,shift in some navi functions. The cut for lw before, "x". Really what for? There's already a standard for win/mac to do the basic commands.
Zbrush is so lucky to be a pioneer and the only stable sculpting app the time. I don't think many people would say zbrush gui and workflow is easy to grasp.
if mudbox was established first with powerful sculpting tools, its probable we would see mudbox the king of sculpting. Like I said technology always has a trend favoring what's been established for sometime.

Rayek
02-13-2012, 03:57 AM
Let's not deteriorate into yet another app comparison war - this thread will be locked.

I have more interest in getting Lightwave back into the (rat)race. And thinking about that: perhaps Newtek devs could focus on getting a glorious viewport performance and quality. LW 10 & 11 seem to be adding a lot of viewport functionality, is that so? That would be one way to stand out of the crowd.

Back on topic, please!

Surrealist.
02-13-2012, 05:34 AM
This is on topic.

You can not talk about LightWave in schools, which is the topic, without understanding the wide scope of things. The question put forth was, basically it is not being taught in schools, what can we do about it?

1) Lie to parents of kids and tell them their hard earned money will be spent well on LightWave alone. Teach it and in school and watch how fast your attendance drops when kids parents realize they've been had. If you could even pull this off, what a bad thing to do to people.

2) Support the push to develop Lightwave, continue to buy upgrades, hope for the best, wait.

3) Be proactive, smart and diligent. Understand the marketplace. Know that LightWave is not at the forefront, and your best hope is to implement what they have at the DAVE school where it is included in the curriculum. And knowing that some studios do use it and it is a good thing to know, it can be offered as a smaller extra course in addition to other offerings.


Putting LightWave in schools, in what capacity it can me now is much smarter and practical than thinking there has to be some paradigm push to get it into schools, by Newtek lowering prices or even offering it for free. Or some LightWave users being brave enough to teach it in school.

No program, no matter how passionately pursued, can succeed without a good plan that derives itself from the existing real situation.

As far as what we can do, given the current situation. Very little. But, I don't think it is hopeless. But realistic thinking and action will go farther than dreaming and hoping, or worse, half-cocked plans.

That is of course assuming that anyone actually wants to do something other than just complain.

OnlineRender
02-13-2012, 06:03 AM
I can name Several schools that use lw around the globe ...but the statement is correct in a general sense ,for 1 ad pushed free edcl so its already got a flying start modo is cheaper and so is cinema compared to lw. Speaking for the UK lw has lost lots of ground on an epic scale ,which is a shame but fully lies in nt hands .7-10 seen no real advancements especially regarding modelling ,it just ticked over like an old car waiting for someone to.give it some.TLC

colkai
02-13-2012, 08:56 AM
As far as I can tell, Lw has always been a "underdog" when it comes to schools and education establishments.
Sure, there have been some LW centric schools / courses, but simply, Autodesk rules the roost in that area.
Given this has always been the way with, apparently, little impact on Newtek or LW, then it could simply be the niche it occupies in studio pipelines is such that they do not require huge numbers of staff to know it.
Whereas the work involved in handling Maya / Max / XSI means they need bigger teams.

Which suggests to me, the freelancer / hobbyist pool of talent is sufficient for the area LW occupies.

Could simply be a case of why put effort into an area which would gain no net rewards, if Newtek did encourage schools to use LW, that doesn't mean that LW would suddenly rise in the usage stakes at major studios. Rather, it could end up just having more and more LW students unable to get jobs, with 200 applicants fighting for 2 LW jobs vs 50 applicants.

Surrealist.
02-13-2012, 12:02 PM
Interesting points. You know I was thinking as I was writing those posts, and I think I may have a somewhat interesting perspective.

There was a time when you could make good money at LightWave. But as I think about it, it was also a time when LightWave ruled the TV shows and so on. It was used for special effects. And even in film - for special effects.

But any shows that had any significant amount of character animation, such as Jurassic Park, other software was used.

So in a sense LightWave had never competed on that level. It did eventually get some decent CA tools. But still it was nothing compared to what was available in other apps.

So what we have seen in a Post-Toy Story world is a heck of a lot more character animation for TV shows films and games. Nothing like it was in LighWave's heyday.

So you have in essence a situation where LightWave already had a foot hold in the special effects arena. And not much of a foothold in CA. Maya, Max and XSI where way ahead of the game. So it just makes more sense for studios to embrace a package that can do it all such as Maya or Max. And once CA animation exploded onto the scene it sort of left LightWave in the dust and Newtek only had a choice to continue to make LightWave the choice for rendering and special effects.

And now the competition is so stiff, you have to not only have amazing CA tools you also have to have amazing special effects, fluids, dynamics and so on. All in one package.

So LightWave is really just suffering in a worst way because I think it has been so weak in CA tools. And the dynamics have been a weak point as well in the face of what is available.

So LW 11 brings us some better dynamics. It seems the logical path is for LW to slowly climb back up as a tool that offers great special effects at a good price. And then it can start to take more of a share of that market.

But it is just interesting, this whole thing about CA. I think this is at the center of LightWave's "demise" over the years. Seems like the one thing they could not afford to spend time on - to stay competitive on the market as an app integrated into pipelines - was the one thing that did them in. With a crystal ball, they could have foreseen the future here now. It is just a crazy world of character animation. And I really do think that this is what is driving the industry. Seems like a package can not be relevant if it does not first do great character animation. Every other competing app leaves LightWave in the dust in this area. Even Blender. lol! Even Modo is threatening to move in with some great looking node-based rigging tools. But modo has a long way yet to go.

So strangely I think that that is what would have to happen if LightWave was to become relative again, It would have to first have some great animation tools that work in today's world of character animation everywhere. That is just looking at it from this perspective. I think it makes some sense to look at it that way.

I am not saying I think they can or will do this. But I think if we are talking about making LightWave relevant, it would have to make a significant splash on the scene with great character tools at some point.

inakito
02-13-2012, 02:01 PM
I am really seeing how the industry in Europe is changing as companies are starting to be seriously worried about using original software. Not that many medium size studios can afford as many licenses as they need for software such as Maya, 3d max or XSI, in order to be use for the artists they have currently hired, or in terms of render node licenses... strong point of using Lightwave. I am starting to perceive how industry is slightly changing at least from the rendering point of view.
I have currently seen how many artists working with a different software than Lightwave being impressed after seeing the VPR, just to start from that.
Industry is changing and we will be here to see it happens...

Surrealist.
02-13-2012, 11:10 PM
On the rendering side, LightWave has some strong points - if you are only rendering camera movement or solid object movement. GI in LightWave is very stable for this application. This is limited to architectural visualization and background shots for SPFX. Rendering other lighting workarounds in LightWave does not necessarily put it ahead of any other solution today. I would say the rendering needs of today far out do what LW can produce from its native rendering package. The trend in rendering is going more toward, Maxwell, Vray, Arnold, Final Render, 3Delight. Options in LightWave are somewhat limited. I don't know the extent fully. But we have Worley labs, Mawell, Kayray, and I am not sure off hand what else.

But LightWave internal GI is easy and stable for what it does and in my opinion better than the competition for camera movement and solid objects, as far as ease of use and speed.

However if you are rendering animation of characters you are boxed into very few options. And this is why you can almost always tell when something has been rendered in LightWave for character animation.

The trend in rendering is in faster computers/render farms, (as has always been the case) but now more robust brute force rendering for photo-realistic shots which takes more time. As far as quality goes, if that is your main criteria, (especially for CA) then LightWave falls way behind. And again, it is the Character Animation problem. This is a huge market. If your software can not support it, it is out of the loop.

Even Mental Ray has fallen way behind in this regard. It can not compete with 3rd Party integrated solutions such as VRay Maxwell, 3Delight etc.

colkai
02-14-2012, 09:52 AM
...snippy....But it is just interesting, this whole thing about CA. I think this is at the center of LightWave's "demise" over the years. Seems like the one thing they could not afford to spend time on - to stay competitive on the market as an app integrated into pipelines - was the one thing that did them in.

Aye, I would go along with those observations, it does raise interesting questions of how you overcome the "lagging behind in CA" that LW is perceived as suffering, if indeed, there is any point in "catching up" as the other packages are already well established with studios, & artists having their preferred CA pipeline already in situ.
I'm being kind here in saying "perceived ", as I know a few people can do CA in native LW, but then I could also do a lot of work without LWCAD but egads, I wouldn't willingly do so given the option. So I can see folks would rather use a more robust CA system than "native" LW facilities, so again, is it financially worthwhile to invest development time trying to bring LW up to speed in an area which, if you like, is already "defined", should you focus on other areas?

The joys of software development, just where do you invest your resources for best rewards?


(Says he who has just spend a week coding for an instance which is super-critical, but which is a royal P.I.T.A and we KNOW will only occur once a year at most. :cry: :screwy: )

jasonwestmas
02-14-2012, 10:47 AM
Aye, I would go along with those observations, it does raise interesting questions of how you overcome the "lagging behind in CA" that LW is perceived as suffering, if indeed, there is any point in "catching up" as the other packages are already well established with studios, & artists having their preferred CA pipeline already in situ.
I'm being kind here in saying "perceived ", as I know a few people can do CA in native LW, but then I could also do a lot of work without LWCAD but egads, I wouldn't willingly do so given the option. So I can see folks would rather use a more robust CA system than "native" LW facilities, so again, is it financially worthwhile to invest development time trying to bring LW up to speed in an area which, if you like, is already "defined", should you focus on other areas?

The joys of software development, just where do you invest your resources for best rewards?



To do CA right, or not to do CA right. . . well I'll skip that part, that would most likely derail the thread completely. =)

If I were only using Lightwave (I'm not, I have to use Character Studio for work) I think messiah as a LW plugin would keep me satisfied for quite a while, especially since it is super cheap and there are many amazing things about it right now to use. Though I do wish there was more than just Fori working on it officially. . .that's just what I hear.

Would I encourage NT to just drop the whole CA ball because people are using maya CA tools with Lightwave via point cache anyway? I'd have to say no way, please continue to develop Highlevel CA tools if the goal is to fully support animation!

Character Animation is a standard of speed verses high percision and control within your animation toolset. If people aren't digging the toolset for CA that means there are too many breakdowns and/or disconnects within the workflow. Are there break downs and disconnects within Character Studio? Yes, there are a few, the rollout panels for example in CS are very optically frustrating to use but functionally it works awesome:

Char. Studio has a great group-keyframing system; I can do most of my editing in the timeline and perspective view; the file swapping between characters and animation layers are real time savers. Hard to compete with that when you have massive amounts of character keys to edit tbh. You can set some of this kind of stuff up in LW but it takes so much longer to do. CA should not be viewed as some obscure passtime that few people need to do, it should set the standard for any animation tool-set.

So for the sake of improving animation setup speed and quality in general, I would definitely suggest NT take a long look at what they have and replace some things all together to rethink the current system. It's looks pretty bad to someone coming from maya, max and softimage in a workflow kind of context. Problems in LW have more to do with actual setup time and keyframing than the functionality aspect of rigging imo.

inakito
02-14-2012, 11:04 AM
However if you are rendering animation of characters you are boxed into very few options. And this is why you can almost always tell when something has been rendered in LightWave for character animation.

The trend in rendering is in faster computers/render farms, (as has always been the case) but now more robust brute force rendering for photo-realistic shots which takes more time. As far as quality goes, if that is your main criteria, (especially for CA) then LightWave falls way behind. And again, it is the Character Animation problem. This is a huge market. If your software can not support it, it is out of the loop.

Even Mental Ray has fallen way behind in this regard. It can not compete with 3rd Party integrated solutions such as VRay Maxwell, 3Delight etc.

Sorry but I dont think I picked up the point... Are you really saying that rendering animated character in Lightwave you can see that the shots are being really rendered using Lightwave? Are you really serious??? Just help me to understand, in the case the animation comes from Messiah or Maya, are you really saying you can spot when a render has been done using Lightwave?? Sorry but I think there couldnt be any point of what you said...

Surrealist.
02-14-2012, 11:42 AM
I think you have to understand this is mainly a technical question. And OK, it does sound a tad bit pretentious. Maybe it is.

But it comes from direct experience when you are trying for a certain look and you can't get it. Then you see someone else rendered something with CA in LightWave and you realize the thought process you went through was the same. It has to be. It is a well-educated guess when you already know the limitations and the options.

I am not trying to say I can just recognize a LightWave render off the bat. That would be ridiculous.

But given the thought process of trying to go for that GI look it starts to become easy to see if you know what to look for.

And I am speaking generally I guess, so every situation is different. But I have seen a few LightWave renders recently as I have been researching this. And that is what came to mind. I could see the thought process and limitations that led to the method of rendering. And it is something that I decided to steer away from. And I too have found myself looking for something better.

Of course I am not alone. There is a rendering trend out there now that LightWave is not at all a part of. It is strong for the things I mentioned.

The only other option in LW is brute force GI which ain't bad. But it is slower than other packages and I think it lags behind in features. And so if you are a technical director and you are choosing rendering software, you want to find something that gives stunning images and is compatible with your animation packages.

So once again, here we are following short in the CA department. If you are looking at the broader spectrum that is.

So in short, if LightWave is becoming less and less the go-to app for rendering, in a marketplace that is teaming with character animation, that is a serious problem to overcome.

inakito
02-14-2012, 12:31 PM
Well, I do really think Lightwaveīs render engine is super versatile, as you can easily go from non realistic toon or cell shade rendering to the most impressive hyper realistic image or animation just out from the box, without the need of investing any extra money on external pugins or tools, as far as you know what you are actually doing.
Besides that, Lightwaveīs super multi material works fantastic and with the implementation of nodes there arenīt any existing limits on your final output quality.
There is also a wrong way of thinking pulling you on the way realistic characters rendering are done simply using GI... it may be simply a way to get the results, but not the only one. If you have the "eye" there is no excuse not to get photorealistic results with or without GI.

cybernaut
02-14-2012, 01:01 PM
Lightwave was the first 3D app I formally learned in school. As such there was that initial WOW! COOL! factor that I experienced from finally doing something in 3D. After using it for a few months I started to understand it more and developed a "LW workflow". After I graduated I continued using it for a couple more years doing some freelance.

My former instructor, whom I was in contact with during that time talking about various new LW plugins etc, was now teaching 3D at a private school using Maya. He invited me to come by the school to check it out. Once I saw what the students were doing I was hooked. I applied and started the 6 month intensive Maya class.

When we were getting into the basics of Maya I was always asking my teacher "Lightwave can do this, how can I do it in Maya?" or "Why can't Maya do this/that" etc. Ultimately such questions were rather silly as its a very different program with a very different workflow. Soon I left Ligthwave's way of doing things behind and developed a Maya workflow. After I graduated I once again freelanced for a bit this time using Maya.

Personally, after using both Programs, I feel like I am more of a Maya person than Lightwave, although I do enjoy using Lightwave still and am happy with the improvements NT has made on its development. I certainly have my likes and dislikes for different aspects of both Lightwave and Maya like LW's formerly mention modeler and Layout split is a constant hindrance to MY 3D workflow. Every time I am in Layout and noticed something like a point that needs to be move or something simple I groan.

It shouldn't be too hard for NT to merged modeler into layout and still keep the ability to import a scene file into another scene file the same way you import a lwo into a scene. IMO

Surrealist.
02-14-2012, 09:33 PM
Well, I do really think Lightwaveīs render engine is super versatile, as you can easily go from non realistic toon or cell shade rendering to the most impressive hyper realistic image or animation just out from the box, without the need of investing any extra money on external pugins or tools, as far as you know what you are actually doing.
Besides that, Lightwaveīs super multi material works fantastic and with the implementation of nodes there arenīt any existing limits on your final output quality.
There is also a wrong way of thinking pulling you on the way realistic characters rendering are done simply using GI... it may be simply a way to get the results, but not the only one. If you have the "eye" there is no excuse not to get photorealistic results with or without GI.

Yes. Very true. But understand this is no longer the wrong way of thinking. And that is exactly on topic for this discussion and the point.

When you cut corners, try to fake GI, it is usually, I say usually, very obvious. And in LightWave there are few options when it comes down to this. And in the end, it never really looks as nice no matter what you do. That is the intrinsic problem with rendering in any package.

Yes, LightWave is versatile, texturig, nodes and so on, just as you say. And basically very easy to use.

So just to make sure you understand my perspective when I say this.

The trend for rendering is away from faking it and going for the real or even stylized real look because a) computers are faster now b) there are more choices in render engines and c) studios find it is factually cheaper to throw money at render farms to crunch numbers on brute force techniques than to get the right images rather than pay employees to sit around tinkering all day. And there is little pay off for the old way because it simply does not look as nice. And todays demands are not what they were 10 years ago. So the trend is things such as Arnold, Maxwell. 3Delight, Render engines that are heavy on compute time (Arnold and 3Delight much faster actually) but very easy on settings. Then we have Vray and others.

I have spent the last 7 years completely avoiding GI and going for all of the workarounds. I am not the best lighting guy around. But I fully understand the principles and have used all of the tricks in the book.

I just recently looked up and realized that the game has changed significantly. With the wider use of render technology such as Rayes which PRMan and 3Delight use. And then things such as Arnold (Which I have used an older version of in Messiah). And the difference in image quality and set up time is very significant. So I have even found this to be true for me as an individual. Time is precious. I'd rather let the computer crunch than tinker.

I always just assumed that LightWave was still king of the hill for rendering on a budget. So I upgraded one of my licenses. I figured I'd have a go at it and realized very quickly the limitations of rendering GI in LightWave. It is far behind the pack in this current trend. (when trying to render for Character Animation). And I was quite surprised to find this out actually.

So it is with this perspective that we look at what was once LightWave's strength is now becoming another weakness. And this is another reason why you won't see it taught in schools, until something changes in development.

Sure you'll see smaller shops use the fake it method and ease of use of LightWave, but that will not affect the education market - topic of discussion - because larger studios for the most part don't bother with it because they simply can not stay competitive. It is more prudent to simply invest in other rendering solutions.

inakito
02-15-2012, 05:34 AM
Yes. Very true. But understand this is no longer the wrong way of thinking. And that is exactly on topic for this discussion and the point.

When you cut corners, try to fake GI, it is usually, I say usually, very obvious. And in LightWave there are few options when it comes down to this. And in the end, it never really looks as nice no matter what you do. That is the intrinsic problem with rendering in any package.

Yes, LightWave is versatile, texturig, nodes and so on, just as you say. And basically very easy to use.

So just to make sure you understand my perspective when I say this.

The trend for rendering is away from faking it and going for the real or even stylized real look because a) computers are faster now b) there are more choices in render engines and c) studios find it is factually cheaper to throw money at render farms to crunch numbers on brute force techniques than to get the right images rather than pay employees to sit around tinkering all day. And there is little pay off for the old way because it simply does not look as nice. And todays demands are not what they were 10 years ago. So the trend is things such as Arnold, Maxwell. 3Delight, Render engines that are heavy on compute time (Arnold and 3Delight much faster actually) but very easy on settings. Then we have Vray and others.

I have spent the last 7 years completely avoiding GI and going for all of the workarounds. I am not the best lighting guy around. But I fully understand the principles and have used all of the tricks in the book.

I just recently looked up and realized that the game has changed significantly. With the wider use of render technology such as Rayes which PRMan and 3Delight use. And then things such as Arnold (Which I have used an older version of in Messiah). And the difference in image quality and set up time is very significant. So I have even found this to be true for me as an individual. Time is precious. I'd rather let the computer crunch than tinker.

I always just assumed that LightWave was still king of the hill for rendering on a budget. So I upgraded one of my licenses. I figured I'd have a go at it and realized very quickly the limitations of rendering GI in LightWave. It is far behind the pack in this current trend. (when trying to render for Character Animation). And I was quite surprised to find this out actually.

So it is with this perspective that we look at what was once LightWave's strength is now becoming another weakness. And this is another reason why you won't see it taught in schools, until something changes in development.

Sure you'll see smaller shops use the fake it method and ease of use of LightWave, but that will not affect the education market - topic of discussion - because larger studios for the most part don't bother with it because they simply can not stay competitive. It is more prudent to simply invest in other rendering solutions.

Just to make you a quick point, I am teaching Lightwave. It is true I am not teaching it at school, but I am teaching it at uni.
I see you are just really talking about a trend, brute force GI.
I am also currently teaching a short transititon to Lightwave from Maya course, in a production house that can not really work with the scenes have been previously created using Maya, and they have a **** lot of troubles in order to render their stuff. As soon as they saw things such as Morphs, OpenGL displacement animation or the VPR, they were so impressed about Lightwave production skills.
This is a fact, and we are changing the trend Im afraid...

renderwerx
02-15-2012, 05:52 AM
In my opinion it really boils down to:

Marketing

and that LightWave doesn't have much
a cool beach group waving with LightWave
boxes to students is something up to NewTek.

it's again Marketing

I have two Autodesk certifications and still
benefit from their free software for 2 more
years to learn the tools incl. all Autodesk
products that there are and some freebees
like Sketchbook Pro.
It's truly attractive to get your hands dirty
with Autodesk software knowing it's at no extra
cost for starters and to see what product you like
most unlike after the usual 30 day kill switch downloads
you still can build up a portfolio and have 3 years
time to do it.
But I got used to LightWave too much and I'm faster
in LightWave than max or Maya, but that's because I
barely use it if at all.
Sadly, I haven't heard anyone at the ACT giving spare
time to mention about LightWave. Our instructor
even didn't know they still do LightWave....shocked...

it's Marketing
say what you want.....

I still stand to what I said earlier.
NewTek needs to split their products and not keep them
all together on one chaos website.
Make LightWave and TriCaster etc. seperately
split the company into two divisions.
AVID did the same with Softimage and look what a splash
XSI īwas and IS. It became FAMOUS.

It's no rocket science is it?...

If NewTek continues like that....sure thing
we will see LightWave following into the footsteps of
Caligari trueSpace.

Surrealist.
02-15-2012, 06:13 AM
Just to make you a quick point, I am teaching Lightwave. It is true I am not teaching it at school, but I am teaching it at uni.
I see you are just really talking about a trend, brute force GI.
I am also currently teaching a short transititon to Lightwave from Maya course, in a production house that can not really work with the scenes have been previously created using Maya, and they have a **** lot of troubles in order to render their stuff. As soon as they saw things such as Morphs, OpenGL displacement animation or the VPR, they were so impressed about Lightwave production skills.
This is a fact, and we are changing the trend Im afraid...


That is great that you are doing that in your area. I am sure they are very thankful to have the option.

And I agree. Mental ray is very challenging.

If we are talking about rendering camera fly-through and moving objects, I can tell you absolutely that LightWave is just about the best most stable and fastest solution out there. GI with interpolation and cache is a very fast and viable solution in my opinion especially compared to the current options of Mental Ray and others.

Thanks for sharing your views and the success in your area. :)

Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

realgray
02-15-2012, 06:44 AM
I'm just hoping that the price increase signals more dedication of resources and more rapid development in the future. But of course that's just speculation.

Surrealist.
02-15-2012, 08:00 AM
Just wanted to post this as an example of the quality I am talking about:

http://area.autodesk.com/showcase/movies/the_witcher_2_intro

I do believe this was rendered in VRay for Maya. Not 100 percent sure. But it was definitely not Mental Ray and it is stuff like this that is setting the standard. You can not even come close to faking this with animated characters in LightWave.

I mean the stuff studios are doing today is just outa control.

jasonwestmas
02-15-2012, 08:18 AM
That is great that you are doing that in your area. I am sure they are very thankful to have the option.

And I agree. Mental ray is very challenging.

If we are talking about rendering camera fly-through and moving objects, I can tell you absolutely that LightWave is just about the best most stable and fastest solution out there. GI with interpolation and cache is a very fast and viable solution in my opinion especially compared to the current options of Mental Ray and others.

Thanks for sharing your views and the success in your area. :)

Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Yes, it is true that Lightwave has a great deal to offer in terms of interactive Rendering feedback. But like you said, are we talking about environmental fly-throughs with few reflections and GI rays to worry about? Or are we talking about deformed objects such as characters in a complex environment?

Specifics are needed here to talk about this stuff productively, and anyone who has used Lightwave render for a while knows that Rendering Animation with good reflections, nice lighting/ shadowing and GI comes at a huge cost time-wise. That is why people are using the 3rd party renderers, they kinda specialize in that stuff and therefore cut the time to render these kinds of things in half.

Now I can usually get away from GI and just use a nice 4 point lighting rig using area lights to simulate good bounce lighting. But what I usually can't get away from is excellent shadow and reflection quality. These things definitely need to be improved speed wise. The new AA and Sampling in LW 11 is yet to be put to the test, but that is a great step forward. I really do hope my renders can be sped up by 25% because I really want to get into animated television shows some day. It's so rare to see that on TV I think because you do need a huge render farm to get enough episodes ready.

So in conclusion I'll say that Lightwave is definitely on the right track for setting up a complex scene but rendering it is another story.

lardbros
02-15-2012, 09:23 AM
In my opinion it really boils down to:

Marketing

and that LightWave doesn't have much
a cool beach group waving with LightWave
boxes to students is something up to NewTek.

it's again Marketing

I have two Autodesk certifications and still
benefit from their free software for 2 more
years to learn the tools incl. all Autodesk
products that there are and some freebees
like Sketchbook Pro.
It's truly attractive to get your hands dirty
with Autodesk software knowing it's at no extra
cost for starters and to see what product you like
most unlike after the usual 30 day kill switch downloads
you still can build up a portfolio and have 3 years
time to do it.
But I got used to LightWave too much and I'm faster
in LightWave than max or Maya, but that's because I
barely use it if at all.
Sadly, I haven't heard anyone at the ACT giving spare
time to mention about LightWave. Our instructor
even didn't know they still do LightWave....shocked...

it's Marketing
say what you want.....

I still stand to what I said earlier.
NewTek needs to split their products and not keep them
all together on one chaos website.
Make LightWave and TriCaster etc. seperately
split the company into two divisions.
AVID did the same with Softimage and look what a splash
XSI īwas and IS. It became FAMOUS.

It's no rocket science is it?...

If NewTek continues like that....sure thing
we will see LightWave following into the footsteps of
Caligari trueSpace.

Completely agree... it's marketing!!!! I've been screaming this for years!!! The only reason LW is still on the radar a little bit is due to the (no offence) older people, the people who pioneered all this stuff.

Younger people need to hear that something is cool, and then they'll use it!

I started using LW because of the cool Hypervoxels advertising of LW6... had a physical and printed leaflet sent through to my door, and it looked freakin' awesome!!! The only reason I took LW up was because it looked cool, and they told me that it was cool!

Marketing has a huge amount to answer for all of the failures of Lightwave... just hope the new chief of marketing gets some cool stuff together for LW... and it's not all TriCaster stuff.

jasonwestmas
02-15-2012, 09:27 AM
Completely agree... it's marketing!!!! I've been screaming this for years!!! The only reason LW is still on the radar a little bit is due to the (no offence) older people, the people who pioneered all this stuff.

Younger people need to hear that something is cool, and then they'll use it!

I started using LW because of the cool Hypervoxels advertising of LW6... had a physical and printed leaflet sent through to my door, and it looked freakin' awesome!!! The only reason I took LW up was because it looked cool, and they told me that it was cool!

Marketing has a huge amount to answer for all of the failures of Lightwave... just hope the new chief of marketing gets some cool stuff together for LW... and it's not all TriCaster stuff.

Well, it has to BE "cool" too ^.^.

Surrealist.
02-15-2012, 09:55 AM
Lol indeed!

Some of the competition:

http://area.autodesk.com/renderingr

But I gotta say, been playing with 3Delight last few days. Very impressed with the speed and stability for deformed meshes. So nice to see something actually working.

jasonwestmas
02-15-2012, 10:04 AM
Lol indeed!

Some of the competition:

http://area.autodesk.com/renderingr

But I gotta say, been playing with 3Delight last few days. Very impressed with the speed and stability for deformed meshes. So nice to see something actually working.

Damn scary, especially with the price battles going on here. I hope NT is ready for a huge marathon. I love competition!

renderwerx
02-15-2012, 11:43 AM
Damn scary, especially with the price battles going on here. I hope NT is ready for a huge marathon. I love competition!

"...competition is like sunshine on ice-cream
you gotta hurry that the good stuff you got
ain't melting into your pants...."

and LightWave is good stuff
let's make it cool,
cause getting hotter and hotter from the sunshine

OnlineRender
02-15-2012, 12:38 PM
$99 an education lic , $499-$600 full ,ditch dongle ,set up a website on the www.Lightwave.com since it does nothing anyway ,sponsor some hot talent ....game set match

Celshader
02-15-2012, 03:33 PM
Skimming through this thread, saw this, and had to respond...


I would think that if I was sending my child to school I would be rather enraged if I found out I was being asked to pay a hefty tuition for them to teach LightWave or Blender.

Presumably - like it or not - going to school is a financial choice. The bulk of the entertainment industry is centered around Audodesk products. You can say what you want about them, but it really boils down to the fact that they are the most widely used products on the market in the industry.

If I am sending my kid to school, I would first ask him what he wants to do with his eduction. And if his answer was he wanted to work in a large studio, I am sending him to a school that teaches Maya or Max.

If he says he primarily wants to be a great artist and work independently as a 3D artist, I am sending him to the best art and design school I can afford and set him up with something like Blender and send him on his way.

I think it is just the reality of the business and there is not likely going to be any major changes too soon.

But it is a world of choices. You don't have to work in a studio and use AD products. Money spent on a great art school is probably better spent, in that case.

I've worked in Los Angeles as a LightWave artist since 1999, picking up RealFlow and Python along the way.

The first five years out here were hard because I did not know anything or anybody, and the cost of living was through the roof. My career has been good to me since then, but if I had started out my VFX career neck-deep in student debt, it would have been extra hard.

Anyone reading this thread: don't go to school to learn VFX unless you really, truly think you'll benefit. I've met kids earning $20/hour who owe up to $100,000 in student debt, because they went to the "best" schools to acquire software skills that they could have picked up from Digital Tutors or Liberty3D.

It's not worth it.

Nicolas Jordan
02-15-2012, 03:49 PM
Anyone reading this thread: don't go to school to learn VFX unless you really, truly think you'll benefit. I've met kids earning $20/hour who owe up to $100,000 in student debt, because they went to the "best" schools to acquire software skills that they could have picked up from Digital Tutors or Liberty3D.

It's not worth it.

:agree: In 2001 I went to a lesser known school that taught Maya for a year and I came out thinking to myself that I could have learned just as much on my own if I set aside the extra time and put effort into it.

Even though for the most part it was a fun experience I really only came away from it with an overall good understanding of Maya a few connections with people I met and a mediocre half finished Maya demo reel. I'm not sure that any of that got me where I am today because I was hired because I knew Lightwave. :D

OnlineRender
02-15-2012, 04:02 PM
Don't get much lw stuff on digital tutors :P ...but I see where you going (roughly Ģ38k) student debt ,but you need to consider the other attributes you learn from higher education...like being able to drink 2 beers at the same time ...

inakito
02-15-2012, 04:18 PM
That is great that you are doing that in your area. I am sure they are very thankful to have the option.

And I agree. Mental ray is very challenging.

If we are talking about rendering camera fly-through and moving objects, I can tell you absolutely that LightWave is just about the best most stable and fastest solution out there. GI with interpolation and cache is a very fast and viable solution in my opinion especially compared to the current options of Mental Ray and others.

Thanks for sharing your views and the success in your area. :)

Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Thanks a lot for compliments, we will keep the flow the best we know.
Cheers!

renderwerx
02-15-2012, 04:21 PM
$99 an education lic , $499-$600 full ,ditch dongle ,set up a website on the www.Lightwave.com since it does nothing anyway ,sponsor some hot talent ....game set match

cool :)

renderwerx
02-15-2012, 05:38 PM
Light
wave

n o w

Surrealist.
02-15-2012, 06:45 PM
Skimming through this thread, saw this, and had to respond...



I've worked in Los Angeles as a LightWave artist since 1999, picking up RealFlow and Python along the way.

The first five years out here were hard because I did not know anything or anybody, and the cost of living was through the roof. My career has been good to me since then, but if I had started out my VFX career neck-deep in student debt, it would have been extra hard.

Anyone reading this thread: don't go to school to learn VFX unless you really, truly think you'll benefit. I've met kids earning $20/hour who owe up to $100,000 in student debt, because they went to the "best" schools to acquire software skills that they could have picked up from Digital Tutors or Liberty3D.

It's not worth it.

lol!

:agree:

Wont' find any disagreement here. :thumbsup:

But for what it is worth, despite your admonitions, and mine, and I have plenty, there is a huge market for schools. Mostly driven by parents in a society that believes that to provide for your kids means to supply some sort of means of education through college hopefully to gain a skill they can use in the marketplace. Not all parents can afford this and many students wind up taking on the dept in the way of student loans. This is sad in many cases. But it is the way it is. So long as people believe in this system, there will be schools and there will be students going into dept.

One of my sisters falls right into this category. She sent her son to the Art Institute of San Francisco for a degree in Filmmaking. I fully understand her thinking in why she did that rather than just send him to the library or simply buy him a bunch of books and a camera for Christmas and have him study on his own in the school of hard knocks. It is just the way that it is out there. This is the thinking. A good education is sacred. And people are willing to pay for it. (Lucky for my nephew, she flipped the bill.)

It is in the mind set of this that I made my comment. And it is more or less the point of this topic.

Factually if it where me, and it was my child, I would leave it up to them. If they really felt they would benefit, I would encourage it. But I would advise strongly against going into such debt in order to achieve it. That is not a good thing for anyone in any situation, much less school.

This thread was not about the virtues of going to school or not but nothing wrong in my opinion of going in that direction.

I refuse to be a thread cop. :)

lardbros
02-16-2012, 05:54 AM
Skimming through this thread, saw this, and had to respond...



I've worked in Los Angeles as a LightWave artist since 1999, picking up RealFlow and Python along the way.

The first five years out here were hard because I did not know anything or anybody, and the cost of living was through the roof. My career has been good to me since then, but if I had started out my VFX career neck-deep in student debt, it would have been extra hard.

Anyone reading this thread: don't go to school to learn VFX unless you really, truly think you'll benefit. I've met kids earning $20/hour who owe up to $100,000 in student debt, because they went to the "best" schools to acquire software skills that they could have picked up from Digital Tutors or Liberty3D.

It's not worth it.

Completely agree with this... I was completely self-taught, then attended university as back then employers were asking for degrees. I didn't learn a great deal (had the time of my life mind you), but it did give me the opportunity and the time to create some work... and only cost me Ģ13k (sounds cheap these days for 4 years training) :D Now, my advice to people in the same boat as I was back then, is the same as Jennifer. If you spend a year teaching yourself through online tuts and things, and you're regimented, you can be as good, if not better, than any graduate. :D

SubDProxy
02-16-2012, 06:54 AM
It is funny to read some of these posts and how high they regard Autodesk Maya. When I read the Maya forums some topics on there complain about Maya losing ground to Houdini for VFX. Odd.

Glen

lardbros
02-16-2012, 07:43 AM
Well... as they always say... "The grass is ALWAYS greener!!" :D

jasonwestmas
02-16-2012, 08:18 AM
It is funny to read some of these posts and how high they regard Autodesk Maya. When I read the Maya forums some topics on there complain about Maya losing ground to Houdini for VFX. Odd.

Glen

haha, I'm sure it is in some social groups. Otherwise Sidefx would be out of business. I'm pretty sure AD sells way more copies of the soft they own.

Surrealist.
02-16-2012, 06:55 PM
It is funny to read some of these posts and how high they regard Autodesk Maya. When I read the Maya forums some topics on there complain about Maya losing ground to Houdini for VFX. Odd.

Glen

Actually it is true that it is generally considered that Maya has fallen behind in many ways. Especially if you talk to people on the Softimage Forums. Personally I would not know. I have not used Maya enough. But it is well integrated with Motion Builder for one. And hands down probably in more studios than Softimage.

For me, looking at all of the features, it was an easy pick to go with Softimage over all of the other choices.

I have downloaded Houdini. And played with it, er, much less than I have played with Maya. But enough to say I think the interface stinks. Coming from a Blender guy, that is saying something. Compared to Maya, I love the Maya inderface. And if it had the same tools that Softimage had, it would be my main choice - likely.

But the point is, I fully checked out Houdini's features. And even gave an extensive email of my questions/feature requests to a guy at Side Effects about the things I was missing, could not find info about and so on regarding Character Animation and the special effects features. After getting responses to my questions and having watched a few video tutorials, I can see why Houdini in its current state will never be embraced as widely as something like Maya.

On the effects side it is powerful but it is just too convoluted to use. It is a great concept. But Softimage ICE (same idea node based workflow) is far more intuitive than the workflow in Houdini IMHO. That is in my opinion from limited use. And when deciding weather or not to drop 6 grand on a package what other way do I choose than to download the software, watch some tutorials and give it a whirl?

And Houdini is way behind on character animation tools. No real good way to mix animation and so on. All of the great tool set you find used in Maya and Motionbuilder. Softimage has some great tools for this built into it already which makes it a great choice.

And for the same price I can get Softimage, Maya, Mudbox, Motion Builder. Why would then drop 6 grand on Houdini? It better be way better than just the most innovative effects workflow. I mean it ought to be fully voice command automated, "give me water" kind of thing. lol! I am joking.

So the thing is, we keep coming back to animation. The software that rules here and also does the other things well, effects, dynamics etc. Is the one that is more than likely to be the one that is adapted. And because Maya has been way ahead of the game for so many years, this is why you see it everywhere.

So it is not good enough just to be innovative and have the latest technology. Even Softimage suffers from this. What makes a software become embraced is I guess mainly timing , but primarily it is financial reality. How much are you getting from one package and how many roles does it fill reasonably well?

Surrealist.
02-17-2012, 07:09 AM
True. One interesting development is the partnership with Dreamworks. I wonder if they are partnering with them for the purpose of turning it into a more rounded production tool or just specialize it more.

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 07:24 AM
I wonder if they are partnering with them for the purpose of turning it into a more rounded production tool or just specialize it more.

Specialize it more than it already is? I imagine it would be something like Pixar and how they had to create tools specifically for curly red hair, haha.

Rayek
02-17-2012, 10:32 AM
So it is not good enough just to be innovative and have the latest technology. Even Softimage suffers from this. What makes a software become embraced is I guess mainly timing , but primarily it is financial reality. How much are you getting from one package and how many roles does it fill reasonably well?

True, very true. Point in case: I switched from Cinema4d Studio to Lightwave because the annual upkeep for a one-man freelance biz like mine was just completely over the top - and Lightwave improved on it in certain areas, though it was lacking in others.

In regards to the aforementioned trends in rendering: one thing I noticed is the unwillingness of many "new-comers" to have to deal with limitations, and work-arounds. With gpu-accelerated unbiased rendering, the realism, and ease of setup, no wonder. I mean, the first time I opened Octane was something of a revelation (even with imposed ram limits). The instant gratification factor is very high. And lately I have been in a less forgiving mood towards LW's renderer because of being able to render insane quality at quite acceptable render times - out-performing LW's renderer. And the quick setup time in some of the other render engines now balances out the longer setup/tinkering time in Lightwave versus somewhat longer unbiased render times. But it depends on the particular scene.

Netvudu
02-17-2012, 11:08 AM
As a medium to long time Houdini user (about 6 years) I would like to point out a few things.
First of all, I find it hard to understand how Softimageīs ICE could be more intutive than Houdini, considering is an exact copy of the VOPs context. The only thing which makes it easier and simple to use are compounds, which also exist in Houdini as digital assets.

It is indeed surprising people thinks Houdini is a "crazy TD package" while to do the same thing without it, you need, letīs say 3 different packages and/or 2 or 3 commercial plugins which might or might not work together. And yes, Iīm talking from (tough) experience. I would swear learning 1 interface is simpler than 5.

If you donīt need to tweak particles or dynamics tools, this is, if you are working in a different department other than FX, then Houdini isnīt 6 grand, but 2 grand. Note that the 2 grand version (Escape) can use all particle and dynamics tools that somebody else designed for you. You just canīt fiddle with them.

3D Studio Max plus Fume FX, plus Krakatoa, plus Rayfire is still WAY far from what you can do with Houdini and you are already on Houdini price range. If you add Vray into the mix (to be able to render anything half-decent) now you are already way above Houdiniīs Master price range.

Iīve been learning Maya for Effects for the last few months for several reasons, one of them simply being my sheer love for effects, and Iīm appalled by how primitive it is in almost all aspects of the effects department. Itīs not that Houdini tools are more streamlined or anything...itīs just simple everyday useability. For every good feature I find, there are five that look dated or simply donīt work properly off-the-shelf.
Effects in Maya have been associated soooo long to MEL coding, that at some point people forgot you might like to use a UI for something.
And still I donīt hear "Maya is a crazy TD tool" while the truth is FX-wise you need way more technical knowledge and scripting knowledge for Maya than for Houdini.

Iīm pretty bad at scripting yet I use Houdini on a daily-basis.

I think the two areas where Houdini ainīt that good are modelling and character animation, but from Houdini standards, most other packages simply donīt cut it for particles, rigid and fluid dynamics, liquid simulations and volume rendering. From my point of view Softimage is a very niche application which hovers by design all around a character toolset with a native renderer that makes the word complex sound simple.

Yet I donīt go and state "Softimage is a crazy rigging TD package". I fully admit Houdini can get tough and uninviting in some areas...so does most other packages. Itīs only some conventions have grown on you and now you find them acceptable.

renderwerx
02-17-2012, 11:35 AM
It's a jungle of good and bad 3D software
vs. real industry standard 3D software
actually taught in schools.

That is Maya, 3ds max at the very top of
the list.

IT IS A DONE DEAL

and something really magical and cool
has to happen in favor to newTek to
blaze of the giant. But for now, the
giant is standing rock-solid against all odds.

Rayek
02-17-2012, 02:44 PM
Still, even Goliath keeps an eye out for potential Davids. If history teaches us one thing, it is that the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Remember QuarkXpress? The one-time Goliath of publishing? Industry standard, untouchable, and all that?

"Don't Blend In, Stand Out". Siggraph 2011 - I was there and saw their slogan. Google it. There is a reason why AD suddenly decided to provide free educational licenses - even to "home schooled students".

I do not see how Newtek can compete when Goliath is handing out free copies of their software to students - even G realizes that a "free" student license attracts future business in the long run. Should Newtek follow suit? At least it will provide students with a choice. As it stands, no student will spend their limited monetary resources on Lightwave when free options (commercial and open source) exist.


It's a jungle of good and bad 3D software
vs. real industry standard 3D software
actually taught in schools.

That is Maya, 3ds max at the very top of
the list.

IT IS A DONE DEAL

and something really magical and cool
has to happen in favor to newTek to
blaze of the giant. But for now, the
giant is standing rock-solid against all odds.

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 02:50 PM
Still, even Goliath keeps an eye out for potential Davids. If history teaches us one thing, it is that the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Remember QuarkXpress? The one-time Goliath of publishing? Industry standard, untouchable, and all that?

"Don't Blend In, Stand Out". Siggraph 2011 - I was there and saw their slogan. Google it. There is a reason why AD suddenly decided to provide free educational licenses - even to "home schooled students".

I do not see how Newtek can compete when Goliath is handing out free copies of their software to students - even G realizes that a "free" student license attracts future business in the long run. Should Newtek follow suit? At least it will provide students with a choice. As it stands, no student will spend their limited monetary resources on Lightwave when free options (commercial and open source) exist.

oh heck yeah, anybody is a threat eventually. =) I would have never guessed 3Dcoat would turn into what it has become. You just never know. Suddenly real warriors and techno-mancers start popping up out of nowhere, seemingly. In the end this is what makes our tools more affordable and easier to learn.

TBH, I'm far more interested in brand new applications these days because they don't have a lot of baggage dragging the development down.

Rayek
02-17-2012, 02:58 PM
...which makes it all the more incomprehensible that, seeing the niche market 3d is, no-one has dared challenge the hegemony of Photoshop as of yet. Somebody should, though - or rather, I keep my hopes up - I keep hitting the limits of the layer-based approach these days.

Anyway, back on topic.

Sculptris was another contender - no surprise why Pixel-logic decided to hand the dev a job on a golden platter (he was jobless at the time). Now pretty much dead in the water.

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 03:06 PM
...which makes it all the more incomprehensible that, seeing the niche market 3d is, no-one has dared challenge the hegemony of Photoshop as of yet. Somebody should, though - or rather, I keep my hopes up - I keep hitting the limits of the layer-based approach these days.

Anyway, back on topic.

Sculptris was another contender - no surprise why Pixel-logic decided to hand the dev a job on a golden platter (he was jobless at the time). Now pretty much dead in the water.

sculptris is dead in the water?

Rayek
02-17-2012, 03:11 PM
TBH, I'm far more interested in brand new applications these days because they don't have a lot of baggage dragging the development down.

Same sentiment here (Core: if only...) - new isn't necessarily better, but at least it shakes up things a bit, and forces a re-think, or rather, becoming more efficient and flexible.

Groboto is another example. I got a license, and have not regretted it.
Messiah though, even with that amazing deal, did not attract me at all - I had had my fill with Messiah in the past (all sorts of support issues in relation to c4d).

Rayek
02-17-2012, 03:14 PM
sculptris is dead in the water?

I met the guy (graphic artist) who designed the GUI a short while ago here in Vancouver, and he mentioned that. He still uses it a lot, though. He convinced me to download it once more, and I have to agree, it IS a lot of fun.

But yeah, it seems the original dev has no time to work on it at this point. (But the wind might pick up some time)

Airwaves
02-17-2012, 03:14 PM
Presumably - like it or not - going to school is a financial choice. The bulk of the entertainment industry is centered around Audodesk products. You can say what you want about them, but it really boils down to the fact that they are the most widely used products on the market in the industry.
.

It is great to see all these posts. I am still learning Lightwave and 3D for that matter but I am on the other end trying to create a project but not have to be a full time 3D artist.

As I have looked for people who can help with Lightwave here where I live it is difficult but I have to admit that I am not surprised and agree with you completely.

I am still a novice but am starting to wonder if Lightwave is becoming more of tool to start learning on like blender?

I have always loved 3D but realize I am horrible at this stuff and that is why I have had to look for people to complete the work for me.

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Same sentiment here (Core: if only...) - new isn't necessarily better, but at least it shakes up things a bit, and forces a re-think, or rather, becoming more efficient and flexible.

Groboto is another example. I got a license, and have not regretted it.
Messiah though, even with that amazing deal, did not attract me at all - I had had my fill with Messiah in the past (all sorts of support issues in relation to c4d).

After learning Messiah 5 for over a year now, I'd actually recommend it to any lightwave user via mdd for rendering inside of LW. I'm pretty impressed with it for film stuff. Performance and keyframing system is amazing. It might have some old stuff in it but if you have any animation and rigging experience at all it's pretty easy to grasp with the Joe Cosman tutorials which are available again.

Yeah, the idea with the new stuff is to sit near it and watch it grow into something next gen and innovative, NOT to make instant money with it. Obviously NT didn't have to funds and/or patience to do that.

Airwaves
02-17-2012, 03:31 PM
I am sure most of you out there have experience in this but for someone like me lightwave has been easier to use in some aspects and really hard in others. I am a beginner and the hardest problem I have is not having enough learning material. All the other programs have 100 times as many tutorials as LW. Tutorials are really big for some people and learning LW can be difficult for someone like me.

Lightwave may not be what they teach in schools but I believe it is an awesome program providing amazing features. I am in the process of setting up a website where I hope to let lightwave users make tutorials and sell them for a decent price that way people can learn Lightwave. The more someone has a chance to use a product the more he sticks with it, if they like it of course.

Hope Lightwave continues to get stronger.

Rayek
02-17-2012, 03:39 PM
Lightwave may not be what they teach in schools but I believe it is an awesome program providing amazing features. I am in the process of setting up a website where I hope to let lightwave users make tutorials and sell them for a decent price that way people can learn Lightwave. The more someone has a chance to use a product the more he sticks with it, if they like it of course.

Hope Lightwave continues to get stronger.

Not too sure if that business model will help attract more LW users - tutorial website like cgcookie and blenderguru provide (most) of the training for free, and for a small amount they provide tutorial files, or more advanced (longer) tutorials. (btw that new cycles tutorial looks nice.)

Didn't one LW paid only tutorial website go belly up a year ago, or something?

Airwaves
02-17-2012, 04:26 PM
That is awesome that you are an instructor. I know you may have heard this before but I would recommend doing online instruction as well. Doing tutorials and things like that are extremely beneficial.

and

My name is Jason and I am a lightwave user :)

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 06:03 PM
haha, Zbrush is crazy, and I still love the brushes to death.

Surrealist.
02-17-2012, 07:27 PM
Specialize it more than it already is? I imagine it would be something like Pixar and how they had to create tools specifically for curly red hair, haha.

LOL yeah. I think it would be the wrong direction. But I would not at all be surprised.

Surrealist.
02-17-2012, 07:51 PM
As a medium to long time Houdini user (about 6 years) I would like to point out a few things.
First of all, I find it hard to understand how Softimageīs ICE could be more intutive than Houdini, considering is an exact copy of the VOPs context. The only thing which makes it easier and simple to use are compounds, which also exist in Houdini as digital assets.

It is indeed surprising people thinks Houdini is a "crazy TD package" while to do the same thing without it, you need, letīs say 3 different packages and/or 2 or 3 commercial plugins which might or might not work together. And yes, Iīm talking from (tough) experience. I would swear learning 1 interface is simpler than 5.

If you donīt need to tweak particles or dynamics tools, this is, if you are working in a different department other than FX, then Houdini isnīt 6 grand, but 2 grand. Note that the 2 grand version (Escape) can use all particle and dynamics tools that somebody else designed for you. You just canīt fiddle with them.

3D Studio Max plus Fume FX, plus Krakatoa, plus Rayfire is still WAY far from what you can do with Houdini and you are already on Houdini price range. If you add Vray into the mix (to be able to render anything half-decent) now you are already way above Houdiniīs Master price range.

Iīve been learning Maya for Effects for the last few months for several reasons, one of them simply being my sheer love for effects, and Iīm appalled by how primitive it is in almost all aspects of the effects department. Itīs not that Houdini tools are more streamlined or anything...itīs just simple everyday useability. For every good feature I find, there are five that look dated or simply donīt work properly off-the-shelf.
Effects in Maya have been associated soooo long to MEL coding, that at some point people forgot you might like to use a UI for something.
And still I donīt hear "Maya is a crazy TD tool" while the truth is FX-wise you need way more technical knowledge and scripting knowledge for Maya than for Houdini.

Iīm pretty bad at scripting yet I use Houdini on a daily-basis.

I think the two areas where Houdini ainīt that good are modelling and character animation, but from Houdini standards, most other packages simply donīt cut it for particles, rigid and fluid dynamics, liquid simulations and volume rendering. From my point of view Softimage is a very niche application which hovers by design all around a character toolset with a native renderer that makes the word complex sound simple.

Yet I donīt go and state "Softimage is a crazy rigging TD package". I fully admit Houdini can get tough and uninviting in some areas...so does most other packages. Itīs only some conventions have grown on you and now you find them acceptable.

Well, I absolutely respect your opinion because you have use it, ah, just a tad more than me. Considering I have never used it. :D

The gist of my critique is based on what I feel to be a significant difference between ICE and Houdini. This is based on a consumer point of view. I watch one video, the guy wants to get the ID from an object and in ICE he drops in a node, selects an object from the list. In the other video the guy wants to do something similar in Houdini and he types in some code. In fact I did not find much in Houdini that did not involve opening a dialog and typing. Where these intelligent side by side comparisons? No.

But if all I wanted to do was special effects, I would look harder at Houdini. Personally I was looking at it as "Does this app actually fill the advertised role?"

Which is:

http://www.sidefx.com/images/stories/products/overview/header_text.png

Followed by the complete list of things - animation and effects - that are targeted directly at the competition. All marketing of course.

But to find out, one has to start someplace. So I download the app play around, read the manual and watch videos. I find out it is a TD oriented app with a clever marketing approach and no real competitive animation tools at all really. I email them and ask to make sure I am not missing anything. I am not. Fine. Moving on.

I don't see why it should be a bad thing that it is a TD oriented tool. It is what it is. It does what it does. It is not easy to use or fun. Nothing is really. But it is not user friendly. That's OK. It does awesome special effects. The rest of it is just marketing.

By contrast the same time looking into Softimage finds it actually exceeds the advertising on every side. It is the most underrated software around. ICE is actually interactive and looks easy and fun to use - if one can say that.

As for the price tag. The direct comparison, feature for feature is 6 grand to an AD production suite, which by contrast is an actual full-blown fully-functional all-around solution to CG. If this is what I am looking for this is where I am spending my 6 grand. Not on Houdini. They are simply marketing it to compete directly with something in reality it can not compete with. That is up to them. In the mean time I have to deal with what it actually is and what it actually has in the way of tools aside from the marketing.

If I still need those extra effects I can not get from ICE, I suppose that that point I look to spend money and specialize.

That is the thinking and in my opinion where Houdini fits into the pipeline.

My feeling about Houdini is that is is completely innovative and cool. I hope they develop it to measure up to the marketing promise. If they do, they'd really have something.

renderwerx
02-17-2012, 08:46 PM
I think when companies focus on the power users in the industry
torturing them with LScript, MEL, and Python

What's needed is an intelligent approach for design functionality
implementation = not scripting but point and click
sorry but scripting doesn't cut it.
Likewise... so called non-linear node link editors are in reality
a clever cover up story and don't really encourage to be creative at all.
Speaking of Houdini or other apps having such features.
Why?
That is, an artist brain doesn't work that way. Artists are not
software engineers. period....
An artist has a wide-spread-out brain activity and wants to swimm
in an ocean of colors and smear them on paper or paint them on paper
with means of how he/she sees fit.
If you tell Renoir how to paint with node-link editors..chances are
you as developer better be prepared to take the hit.
Or imagine Ryan Church would need to
write a Python script to make an amazing paint stroke of a new
concept drawing....

Not a 3D compare but 2D

why is Corel Painter and ArtRage so good?
well, these apps were created with help from Artists who know
how to paint and the developers were listening
They came up with amazing tools to paint digital
no argument here

So, we need the same approach with 3D
ruling out CAD programs of cause.

THEN
you get a new, fresh, cool and exciting 3D app that will
blaze off the giant.
And if so good like Corel Painter or ArtRage
schools will teach it
Studios will use it
etc

...

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 08:58 PM
Well the idea with nodes is not to create raw creative content with them but to be able to mix "art samples" together like a filtering system and to do this in a controlled manner quickly and efficiently. Nodes are about being able to share things between other artists and store these creative "Visions"; tweak smaller elements and quickly rearrange the order of the "visions" more logically and not in a swirly time consuming method ALL the damn time. ;)

Rayek
02-17-2012, 11:05 PM
Don't agree - you are grossly over-generalizing, as if "true" artists are imbued with some magical property that allows them to be creative.

I am an artist/designer, and I like to develop/program as well. I teach html/css to graphic designers, and although most *are* initially intimidated by the whole coding bit, after a couple of classes 70~80% is actually having fun converting their Illustrator/Photoshop layouts to pure html and css. Most love the "puzzle" aspect, and it challenges their minds in different ways, making them even better designers/artists, if you ask me. A good artist/designer keeps an open mind, allowing himself/herself to be exposed to many different tools, environments and techniques. Coding can be a valuable part of that experience.

Lots of artists out there that also have an incredibly logical mind - I would argue that to be a good artist/designer, he/she must possess one. Generally, I would say the best students that attend my classes are the ones with good mental faculties, and the ones that are mediocre or worse, tend to have more chaotic thought patterns. Of course it is a generalization, and I do encounter some exceptions to this rule (but not many!).

Point in case: in one of my classes I have a young man who, last term, started to experiment in "processing" - http://processing.org/
He's a great artist, designer, coder, and now breaking into this type of "art programming". He might become the "techno-Monet" of the 21st century - who can tell? And I don't even want to start a discussion about what is art, design, and what is not. All in the eye of the beholder.

Having a scripting language like Python available is a gods-end: I've written all sorts of small utilities to make my life easier in Blender. It gives an artist *power* that would otherwise incur an incredibly convoluted approach with some kind of intrusive and limiting GUI.

Artists and software engineers possess the same "hardware" (brains) - it's just their outlook that might differentiate one from the other, and how they have learned to use their brains, but in this day and age they are most certainly no longer mutually exclusive - quite the contrary, I feel.


I think when companies focus on the power users in the industry
torturing them with LScript, MEL, and Python

What's needed is an intelligent approach for design functionality
implementation = not scripting but point and click
sorry but scripting doesn't cut it.
Likewise... so called non-linear node link editors are in reality
a clever cover up story and don't really encourage to be creative at all.
Speaking of Houdini or other apps having such features.
Why?
That is, an artist brain doesn't work that way. Artists are not
software engineers. period....
An artist has a wide-spread-out brain activity and wants to swimm
in an ocean of colors and smear them on paper or paint them on paper
with means of how he/she sees fit.
If you tell Renoir how to paint with node-link editors..chances are
you as developer better be prepared to take the hit.
Or imagine Ryan Church would need to
write a Python script to make an amazing paint stroke of a new
concept drawing....

...

Surrealist.
02-17-2012, 11:41 PM
I think it is a progression that is based on frequency of use.

You don't have any advantage of programing things you do all the time. This can be in simple ways.

And frankly I am not and will never be a programmer. I could. But I have other things to do. It is not that I am not capable of it. I just don't have the interest in spending the time to learn it. You can't just say it is as simple as picking up a manual and diving in. Programing is extremely hard to do. It is also extremely hard to learn. I don't care how many people tell you it is easy. It is like me telling a new guy. "Subpatch modeling is a snap!" Of course it is. I have been doing it for years. But it took a long time to get over the basics.

So when you invite people to learn programing you have to be responsible for what you are asking. It is not easy and it takes time.

I do audio engineering on my own projects. But it took years to learn. Sure this saves me time and money and I have hands on control of audio effects in my productions. But to say to someone... "all you have to do is edit the audio in a program... done".

It ain't that easy. It is a whole science and art that takes a long time to learn.

And if you have spent the time learning it, great. You have an asset to use. If you have not, you have to evaluate the trade off.

Just like anything. Do I want to get deep into expressions, or do I want to use an Auto Rig tool? Do I want to set up each limb with an expression for IK or do I wan the program to know when I make a chain of bones, I mean there to be an IK operator there?

Do I want to have to figure out the math and use pi equations or do I want to simply plug in Cycler? I should not have to get "programmy" just to dig deeper. I should be able to do most things I need without going there.

There are a host of things that can and should be left under the hood. Is there an advantage to learning programing? Sure. But the reality is not everyone is going to do this. It is a learned skill just like anything else. It is a professional skill.

That is why software companies that are aware of the trends, don't spend time and energy trying to shove programing down people's throats, they develop tools that have most of these things under the hood so to speak. This is the nice thing about ICE. You can get as deep as you want, if you need to. But you can really do a lot without any need to know programing at all. That is power for the rest of us who simply will never be programmers.

And the thing is that software is all over the map in this regard. But the progression is away from programmy things. In Blender 2.49 I had to go look for the target of a constraint and then copy it or remember its name and type it in. In 2.5x I can just select it from the list. This is progress.

jasonwestmas
02-17-2012, 11:42 PM
Emotionally moving art is part chaotic and part harmonizing. I think we need both forces if any dramatic effect is to take place. The experiment being the chaos and the logic providing the harmony.

Rayek
02-18-2012, 01:00 AM
Emotionally moving art is part chaotic and part harmonizing. I think we need both forces if any dramatic effect is to take place. The experiment being the chaos and the logic providing the harmony.

Let me re-phrase what I said: our brains are incapable of creating chaos. It's all patterns. We can't help ourselves.

renderwerx
02-18-2012, 03:54 AM
All genuine opinions and meaningful. My worry is that artists get bored
having to learn programming in LScript so that they can call themselfs
Professional LightWave users and that said that studios pay emphasis
on the programming skills of LightWave users prior to job interviews.
Ironically speaking, studios can then hire straight away the NewTek
software engineering staff for AVATAR 2.

Sorry but I disagree. By any means, knowing LScript surely is a good
thing, sadly enough. But it would be wise to keep LScript under the
hood. At least for artist minds like myself. I still find even expressions
hard to deal with.

I want for the sakes of real world comparishon name a software that
has a (in my opinion) kept the marketing headline promise for 3D
artists. That said, the package or actually 2 packages work with the
artist mind approch.
And I would encourage to have a look at these 2. Even though they are
not as near as powerful as LightWave perhaps, but respectable at least.
I'm talking about Hexagon and Carrara.
Hexagon's promise? Model your inspiration.
I tried Hexagon and they keep the promise. Carrara works seemingly easy
with animations, MOCAP, FBX, content, formulas (for the coders amongst you)
powerful shader editor.... etc.
Doesn't hurt to download a 30 day trial...to have a look... I did too.
Maybe newTek can learn from DAZ Hexagon and Carrara.

jasonwestmas
02-18-2012, 09:07 AM
All genuine opinions and meaningful. My worry is that artists get bored
having to learn programming in LScript so that they can call themselfs
Professional LightWave users and that said that studios pay emphasis
on the programming skills of LightWave users prior to job interviews.
Ironically speaking, studios can then hire straight away the NewTek
software engineering staff for AVATAR 2.

Sorry but I disagree. By any means, knowing LScript surely is a good
thing, sadly enough. But it would be wise to keep LScript under the
hood. At least for artist minds like myself. I still find even expressions
hard to deal with.

I want for the sakes of real world comparishon name a software that
has a (in my opinion) kept the marketing headline promise for 3D
artists. That said, the package or actually 2 packages work with the
artist mind approch.
And I would encourage to have a look at these 2. Even though they are
not as near as powerful as LightWave perhaps, but respectable at least.
I'm talking about Hexagon and Carrara.
Hexagon's promise? Model your inspiration.
I tried Hexagon and they keep the promise. Carrara works seemingly easy
with animations, MOCAP, FBX, content, formulas (for the coders amongst you)
powerful shader editor.... etc.
Doesn't hurt to download a 30 day trial...to have a look... I did too.
Maybe newTek can learn from DAZ Hexagon and Carrara.

Well I would definitely agree in the respect that human beings I think, can easily get caught up and "Lost" in the tools, constantly learning Processes and Patterns to create "pretty stuff" but in fact sacrifice the creative thought processes needed to truly appreciate the medium.

What is needed is a good healthy balance of something as flexible as a lump of polygons in Zbrush that can be infinitely deformed and reshaped. Then on the other hand, a way to quicly bottle, filter and reuse such creative processes/material, which I believe nodes do quite well.

Surrealist.
02-18-2012, 11:38 AM
Yeah, I mean if we are talking about, creating characters, painting textures and so on. Ptex is in the right direction.

But when it comes to something like a million particles flying around or merging into globules of water or any other such effect. The technology is not quite there yet for paint stroke interactiveness. I think nodes are closer. There is this particle paint tool in Maya but I have never used it. Have not idea how useful it is.

In the Softimage videos on ICE modeling he makes a point several times. This is not about a better way to model a bottle for instance. Or a method to replace other modeling techniques.

A great example is the set up for cracking an object up with ICE nodes. It takes a bit of set up, but once you get there, yeah you could have just cracked up the object, but now you can control all kinds of parameters.

As far as I remember the modeling of the chunks was entirely procedural with nodes. And you can then animate the cracks in all kinds of ways. This stuff is far more interactive than anything I have ever seen.

You can see the free preview of this tutorial here:

http://www.digitaltutors.com/11/training.php?pid=98&autoplay=1

It is things like this that just go way beyond the bounds of what you can accomplish with just doing things in a direct linear hands on way.

And as a note more or less on topic, I really do recommend this site. For less than the price of one book on one software you can sign up for a month and just check out the tutorials on any software you are interested in. It is a great way to check stuff out. And I did a whole bunch of tutorials on Softimage and I think that is how I eventually got sold on it.

And unfortunately, no. No tutorials on LightWave...

renderwerx
02-18-2012, 07:29 PM
phew...
lot of stuff to talk about
and lot of stuff needed to get me hooked on that node thingy

But interesting that ICE
not sure if I get ever to try it though
I can download the edu version from my stutend account
and try it...... well won't hurt trying.... huh?

Are there any video tutorials other than digital tutors?
I can't stand digital tutors..... sorry... but I'm honest about it.

jasonwestmas
02-18-2012, 07:41 PM
Tons of free stuff about nodal setups in general on vimeo and probably you tube.

Surrealist.
02-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Here is a good place to start:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13571400

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=14508753&linkID=12544118

http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:Tutorials

Surrealist.
02-19-2012, 05:31 AM
I think when companies focus on the power users in the industry
torturing them with LScript, MEL, and Python

What's needed is an intelligent approach for design functionality
implementation = not scripting but point and click
sorry but scripting doesn't cut it.
Likewise... so called non-linear node link editors are in reality
a clever cover up story and don't really encourage to be creative at all.
Speaking of Houdini or other apps having such features.
Why?
That is, an artist brain doesn't work that way. Artists are not
software engineers. period....
An artist has a wide-spread-out brain activity and wants to swimm
in an ocean of colors and smear them on paper or paint them on paper
with means of how he/she sees fit.
If you tell Renoir how to paint with node-link editors..chances are
you as developer better be prepared to take the hit.
Or imagine Ryan Church would need to
write a Python script to make an amazing paint stroke of a new
concept drawing....

Not a 3D compare but 2D

why is Corel Painter and ArtRage so good?
well, these apps were created with help from Artists who know
how to paint and the developers were listening
They came up with amazing tools to paint digital
no argument here

So, we need the same approach with 3D
ruling out CAD programs of cause.

THEN
you get a new, fresh, cool and exciting 3D app that will
blaze off the giant.
And if so good like Corel Painter or ArtRage
schools will teach it
Studios will use it
etc

...

Thought you might want to have a look at this:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?225190-Bsurfaces-v1.5

OnlineRender
02-21-2012, 01:16 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/421052_296476800407384_100001351986581_740235_1684 79321_n.jpg

SCHOOL - LIGHTWAVE :) just posted on FX Animation FB page, SPAIN!

50one
02-21-2012, 01:18 PM
That's Photoshop!
:D

Netvudu
02-21-2012, 04:25 PM
No. Itīs not. Actually itīs better than just the school (which is placed in Barcelona). The screenshot shows the school people helping a production house change their pipeline from Maya to Lightwave.

inakito
02-24-2012, 01:42 PM
No. Itīs not. Actually itīs better than just the school (which is placed in Barcelona). The screenshot shows the school people helping a production house change their pipeline from Maya to Lightwave.

I agree with Netvudu.

Itīs been a three long weeks transition to Lightwave from Maya course for a production house in Galicia, North West of Spain.

The idea was basically implementing the use of :lwicon: for a Maya and Lightwave hybrid production pipeline. They are currently in production, and they were having so much problems on the rendering side with Maya.

The aim also was making them ready to take on board any kind of future production, and bringing down the terrible and wrong idea remaining in Europe about Lightwave's lacking production tools...

The modelling bit was hard but as soon as they saw how quickly you can create production quality product, preview it, and how easy you can create it, they were so into Lightwave!!!

Guys, I do really think this could be a new beginning... or should I say a rise up against the dark side???( simply joking)

On top of that I would like to say itīs been a fantastic experience and tha we will hopefully see some good stuff coming out from them soon.

jasonwestmas
02-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Guys, I do really think this could be a new beginning... or should I say a rise up against the dark side???( simply joking)

On top of that I would like to say itīs been a fantastic experience and tha we will hopefully see some good stuff coming out from them soon.

The beginning of an uprising? Maybe in Europe. Just depends on what you want to do and what your budget is, but I tend to agree for rendering certain effects and environments the LW renderer is ace.

Dexter2999
02-24-2012, 03:53 PM
Can't say I have read everything in this thread.

But did anyone else notice that the majority of the testimonies given in the CGTalk article about LW11 were from EU users?

Economic hardships may be making many productions look at other than the "top of the line" methods such as using Maya for modeling/animating then another package (Renderman/Vray) for rendering. Cheaper seats and an easier render workflow may be nibbling away some of the AD userbase. (I'm not suggesting they will "kick down the doors" and overtake them but certainly get a foot back in the door as it were.)

djwaterman
02-24-2012, 10:03 PM
Earlier in this thread I said I was no longer teaching LW at the college and they had swapped to Blender, well they haven't yet (probably because they couldn't find enough Blender instructors), so I'm back teaching Lightwave at least for some part of this year.

jasonwestmas
02-24-2012, 10:05 PM
Earlier in this thread I said I was no longer teaching LW at the college and they had swapped to Blender, well they haven't yet (probably because they couldn't find enough Blender instructors), so I'm back teaching Lightwave at least for some part of this year.

Blender eh? Why didn't max or maya come up?

GandB
02-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Blender eh? Why didn't max or maya come up?

$$$ VS Free

jasonwestmas
02-24-2012, 10:17 PM
I don't see any job postings for blender in the game industry. . .just max and maya.

djwaterman
02-24-2012, 11:57 PM
It's free, students can get access to it and the 3D component of the course is small as it's more graphics orientated, last year they were teaching game design, I don't know, they change with the wind. Most of the other adult colleges around teach Maya, this place just happens to be walking distance from me and they use Lightwave so I lucked out. It's not typical is what I'm saying.

jasonwestmas
02-25-2012, 08:23 AM
Sound more like the classes are about teaching 3d basics then which is great. Just thought I would play both sides of the coin though and say that using and learning something more widely accepted is good too.

mborge
02-26-2012, 01:11 AM
Sound more like the classes are about teaching 3d basics then which is great. Just thought I would play both sides of the coin though and say that using and learning something more widely accepted is good too.

Established pipelines, what nonsense, you're just an AD instigator in disguise! To prove it, I'm going to hold my breath until maya and max go away! :D

mborge
02-26-2012, 01:20 AM
Thought you might want to have a look at this:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?225190-Bsurfaces-v1.5

Thanks! I just had a Nerdgasm! I'd heard rumor of this but, never really seen in action. - Kind of like my High School exp come to think of it :D

djwaterman
02-26-2012, 06:52 AM
That Blender plug-in was amazing. Amazing. I wish I had another head so I could go learn Blender as well. That looked like the future of modeling. I'm so impressed (depressed).

jasonwestmas
02-26-2012, 09:29 AM
Established pipelines, what nonsense, you're just an AD instigator in disguise! To prove it, I'm going to hold my breath until maya and max go away! :D

Whatever pipelines achieve the appointed effect in a faster amount of time. . .that is what I and others are after. This could include lightwave or not. The software works for me and my vision or the vision of the client, I don't work for it because it is merely a tool.

djlithium
02-27-2012, 07:41 PM
A couple of quick thoughts on this subject and how NT can immediately kick down some doors.

1. Educational seats must ditch the dongle, immediately. NT can do it now, why it doesn't is beyond me. Probably bad IP lawyer advice. I don't know. But it must happen to make it accessible to schools at next to zero cost to NewTek.
2. Studio Seats also must ditch the dongle for similar reasons. Control being one of them
3. For every Tricaster/3Dplay or whatever it might be, NT should be offering as a bonus for when a school buys one, as many LW seats as a school can take, free of charge plus "broadcast graphics training" videos done by the best of the best for use with the Tricaster. This will help push back C4D out of NT's market space when it comes to motiongraphics.
4. Pick up more developers to accelerate development on all fronts from Modeler to Layout and beyond, while addressing long standing issues that we are all aware of.
5. Drop the dealer network for LightWave3D purchases and combine all worldwide purchase sales online to one central place. Again, ditch the dongle so you can turn someones "spontaneous purchase" temptation into cash in NewTek's hand and all you are selling is account access and a Virtual Dongle ID and people download the software and get to work right away.

I have a challenge for NewTek marketing and management. I bet you hands down, that LightWave 3D sales would go up 20 - 50% if you enacted the things above, and your costs would go down. And this would happen practically over night.
BTW, if people consider LW to be a "hobbyist app", go ahead and let them, but in return you should own that market space. That means every person with Poser/Daz/Vue should be LightWave users.
Cut the price of the software to 495.00 for download/virtual dongle id and get the software into the apple store, Best Buy, Future Shop, Frye's, Curry's and London Drugs. All places where you can buy adobe product.
Offer all 3DSMax and Maya owners, when proof of purchase is provided, a copy of LightWave3D as a "rendering alternative" to Mental Ray for major discount. Then hammer the hell out of fast interchange and surface translation from MentalRay, Max/Maya standard materials into LightWave for that purpose and watch Vray fade into non-existence along with Mental Ray (which is owned by nVidia and VERY prone to market fluctuations such as this).

djwaterman
02-28-2012, 12:01 AM
I totally agree with ditching the dongle, who want's to pay money and then wait around for you dongle to turn up, it's got to be instant now days. It's a negative and who knows how many people talked themselves out of a purchase because they didn't want to wait.

A render alternative? It would have to be a lot better to convince Vray users.
They would also have to incorporate an AE link to undercut C4D's hold on motion graphics, or heavily promote or sponsor the 3rd party plugins that currently do this.

Netvudu
02-28-2012, 06:05 AM
I agree with Kat in most fronts, but as much as I would like it to be true, I doubt Newtek will ever dare to do number 5 (ditching dealers). There are a huge lot of factors to consider before attempting something like that.

gravin
02-28-2012, 06:24 AM
I must be a weirdo or something because I like the dongle lock system.
I know logically I shouldn't but I find it comforting to have something physical to prove ownership. This was actually a factor in my decision to pick up a Lightwave license, well the dongle and the flexible user resale policy and the overall value considering the functionality included. feels more like a hardware purchase in that if I have to I can sell it and recoup a portion of my investment. With AD products you buy in for life, no selling the license if life takes you in a different direction, which does make more sense for AD financially I guess.

ben martin
02-28-2012, 07:24 AM
[edit] I haven't found a really good way to edit corrective joint morphs in LW. Lately, I've been taking advantage of the new 'auto-update' feature introduced in 10 to improve feedback. It's still awkward tweaking a morph target in Modeler and checking the results on a mesh deformed by posed joint-based rig in Layout but being able to see the tweaks by simply pressing 's' is somewhat helpful. It's okay for simple corrections but I lose patience with it for more complicated edits.[edit]
It's things like this that make me wonder why I'm still keeping so much of my CA work in LW. Well, I know why--it's because I like LW's simplicity. But 'simplicity' doesn't have to mean incomplete.
G.

We are absolutely on the same page here.

To stay on topic, I’ll add that it is not only in schools that Lightwave is not being much exposed /desired.

Things are further complicated when some VFX teams / studios contact (because they saw and liked one's work in films) and ask what is the tool one uses for a possible project collaboration and when one says "Lightwave" they just shut up on the phone and say: "ha ... ok ... we’ll call you back for further news." and one never hears about them again.
This yes, is sad and boring.

Anyway… I too, love Lightwave :twak:

jasonwestmas
02-28-2012, 09:28 AM
Vmap edits in layout. That will get LW into more hands and educators. ^.^