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robertoortiz
12-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Quote:

"

If you’ve been waiting to upgrade Photoshop CS3 or CS4 to CS6 when it’s released sometime next year, here’s some bad news: the upgrade price won’t apply to you. Starting with CS6, Adobe will be enforcing a new upgrade policy:


[...] we are changing our policy for perpetual license customers. In order to qualify for upgrade pricing when CS6 releases, customers will need to be on the latest version of our software (either CS5 or CS5.5 editions). If our customers are not yet on those versions, we’re offering a 20% discount through December 31, 2011 which will qualify them for upgrade pricing when we release CS6.




The existing policy is that customers with software from three versions back quality for upgrade pricing. For example, owners of CS2, CS3, and CS4 and upgrade to CS5. Buying the full version of Photoshop CS5 right now costs nearly $500, while the upgrade is only priced at ~$150."



http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/16/adobe-will-only-offer-photoshop-cs6-upgrade-price-to-cs5-owners/

nickdigital
12-05-2011, 01:11 PM
It makes you appreciate NewTek's LightWave upgrade policy even more.

mosconariz
12-05-2011, 01:23 PM
It makes you appreciate NewTek's LightWave upgrade policy even more.

It makes you appreciate piratebay also ;)

robertoortiz
12-05-2011, 01:36 PM
Well it seem to me that they are herding people into their cloud services.

(if true This is a HORRIBLE precedent)


Adobe responds to Creative Suite pricing criticism

“Our aggressive subscription price for Adobe Creative Cloud – $49 per month for every Adobe Creative Suite application, our new touch apps and new cloud-based services – will provide incredible value for the creative community and we will clarify and promote these benefits to our customers over the next few months,” reads the statement. “The changes to our upgrade policy, for customers who would like to continue to purchase CS software as a perpetual license, benefits customers who are on the latest versions of our software. We have promotions that enable customers to upgrade to the latest CS version ahead of CS6 at a reduced rate – at the moment we are offering 20% off any upgrade to the latest version of their Adobe software.”



The response to Adobe’s pricing has been strong throughout the community, but that stands to reason considering how many creative pros use the company’s software.


Rob note: The cloud is coming for us...

Dexter2999
12-05-2011, 01:50 PM
Well, to be honest their sales are way down. There isn't really a "must have" reason for most people to upgrade past CS3. Most of the tools I use in Photoshop are the same ones I have been using since version 6.

The "Heal" brush is kinda cool. And Smart shapes seem useful (but I haven't gotten into using them.)

The only reason to upgrade for me is if an upgrade in OS demands it.

I'm avoiding "the cloud" at all costs, including the "complimentary UV streaming digital copy" with new DVD releases.

biliousfrog
12-05-2011, 02:06 PM
I've known this for a while. I've got the CS3 production suite and have been avoiding an upgrade for two main reasons: I'd have to upgrade my AE plugins to work with the 64bit application and AE cannot save projects to older versions (which makes collaboration very difficult).

To be honest, the only reason I'd consider an upgrade is for 64bit versions of After Effects and Photoshop, there aren't any tools which I need from the newer applications. What I'm now considering is whether to buy 5.5, which is greatly reduced in some places or just hold off and buy CS6+ at a later date when they develop something that I really need. If current prices hold, it would actually be cheaper for me to buy CS6 than CS5.5 upgrade then CS6 upgrade as upgrade prices from CS3 aren't much cheaper than buying the full app if you shop around. I also wouldn't need to worry about running CS3 alongside CS6, something which Adobe couldn't asure me I'd be able to do with an upgrade.

tischbein3
12-05-2011, 04:35 PM
What I'm now considering is whether to buy 5.5, which is greatly reduced in some places or just hold off and buy CS6+ at a later date when they develop something that I really need.

The other option I read somewhere else is:
Wait until CS6.0 is almost shipping so you get into the "5.5 + free 6.0" - upgrade timeframe.... although don't ask me, if this, in the end will be actually much cheaper than buying 5.5, at a reduced price, now.

chris

tischbein3
12-05-2011, 05:26 PM
“Our aggressive subscription price for Adobe Creative Cloud – $49 per month for every Adobe Creative Suite application, our new touch apps and new cloud-based services – will provide incredible value for the creative community and we will clarify and promote these benefits to our customers over the next few months,”

RIP Master Collection

jaf
12-05-2011, 08:31 PM
I now see a reason onOne went to a standalone version of their Perfect Photo Suite product. I have version 6, and I won't say it replaces Photoshop, but it does do a lot of things better/easier than what I used to use Photoshop for.

Adobe should watch out. Just as Blender can be a great 3D graphics free replacement, especially for hobbyists, there are other applications out there like Paint.net, Gimp, etc, that can do the job for a lot of us.

Ernest
12-05-2011, 09:21 PM
It's not as horrendous as it could be (the cloud part, I mean; the upgrade part is quite top-level horrendous. Way to deal with the fact that their customers can no longer pay those kinds of prices every single year. Turn them into non-customers, for all practical purposes!).
From their FAQ:

First, the Creative Suite products will not be cloud based; in fact, the CS applications, Adobe Edge, and Muse will continue to be installed directly on your computer just as they are today. You will not need an ongoing Internet connection to use these products on a daily basis.

JeffrySG
12-05-2011, 09:28 PM
Here's a great open letter to adobe from the NAPP president.
http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2011/archives/22903

Truth is it's time that there was a real competitor to Photoshop out there.

Dodgy
12-05-2011, 10:04 PM
I now see a reason onOne went to a standalone version of their Perfect Photo Suite product. I have version 6, and I won't say it replaces Photoshop, but it does do a lot of things better/easier than what I used to use Photoshop for.

Serif Photoplus is a pretty good clone of photoshop in that it has pretty much everything PS 7 had (in the same interface pretty much), and some stuff that the latest PS still doesn't have (Like live transforms which undo one move at a time, NOT all the way back to when you selected the item to move... Curse you PS! Or the ability to stack filters and see the results before confirming, and other bots and pieces)

The best thing about it? The price: 59.61 pounds

http://www.serif.com/photoplus/

Really, I recommend it if you're fed up of Adobe's pricing...

BigHache
12-05-2011, 10:40 PM
That looks keen. I'm still using my CS(1) suite on my Mac but sometimes get tired of the back and forth. That may be a good solution for my Windows box.

This new Adobe pricing structure is For The Fail. I'm not spending money on software that expires and I've never been at a point where I can upgrade every year.

tischbein3
12-06-2011, 03:15 AM
Adobe should watch out. Just as Blender can be a great 3D graphics free replacement, especially for hobbyists, there are other applications out there like Paint.net, Gimp, etc, that can do the job for a lot of us.

Not sure: A few years back I did expect, gimp would make it a hard time for all the 100$-200$ long-term-stagnating applications out there (wich I shall not name)... wich also didn't happened.


It's not as horrendous as it could be (the cloud part, I mean; the upgrade part is quite top-level horrendous. Way to deal with the fact that their customers can no longer pay those kinds of prices every single year. Turn them into non-customers, for all practical purposes!).
Its the comination of a forced upgrade and monthly based subscription wich I do think will make a lot of existing customers rethink if their current suite, and all the applications in it really need such an tight upgrade policy, and rather decide to go into a more selective route .
(for example: lower priced suites: splitting up a bunch of master collection licences into web and production premium, just temporarly subscribe to a cloud service if a new feature is _really_ needed).

InfoCentral
12-06-2011, 03:29 AM
And you have Xara which is an excellent AI replacement. It also contains an option to add website development as well so it might just be good enough to replace Dreamweaver too.

Dodgy
12-06-2011, 05:17 AM
Not sure: A few years back I did expect, gimp would make it a hard time for all the 100$-200$ long-term-stagnating applications out there (wich I shall not name)... wich also didn't happened.

Yeah, I waited so long for Gimp to get decent I gave up and looked for an alternative. Photoplus was the closest I could find to photoshop. It's not perfect, but then what do you expect for 60 quid :)

For AI, I switched to Inkscape, and that is pretty nice, and completely free.

Lightwolf
12-06-2011, 08:37 AM
The main problem that I see is for the small companies/single person outfits, especially if you need to deal with assets delivered by customers.
I.e. I get just about anything created in the Suite, PSD, PSB, .AI to InDesign documents.

On the other hand, at least one can rent the stuff if it's not needed all the time (i.e. to prepare the odd, delivered, asset ever once in a while).

I'm not sure what this change of upgrade policy has to do with cloud computing though... :question:

Cheers,
Mike

BigHache
12-06-2011, 08:57 AM
I'm not sure what this change of upgrade policy has to do with cloud computing though... :question:

That's part of the new pricing choices (http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2011/11/adobe-creative-cloud-and-adobe-creative-suite-new-choices-for-customers.html).

biliousfrog
12-06-2011, 08:59 AM
And you have Xara which is an excellent AI replacement. It also contains an option to add website development as well so it might just be good enough to replace Dreamweaver too.

I just had to look that up, I thought Dreamweaver got dropped years ago. People still use it then?

Lightwolf
12-06-2011, 09:00 AM
That's part of the new pricing choices (http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2011/11/adobe-creative-cloud-and-adobe-creative-suite-new-choices-for-customers.html).
Precisely, that's only an additional offer. It's not the only option.
The kicker is limiting of the upgrade eligibility for the "classic" licensing and upgrading model.

Cheers,
Mike

BigHache
12-06-2011, 10:33 AM
Precisely, that's only an additional offer. It's not the only option.

Ok, I understand your question now. I think "cloud" is/is becoming a dirty word, people hear cloud and scream :help:

Cryonic
12-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I waited so long for Gimp to get decent I gave up and looked for an alternative. Photoplus was the closest I could find to photoshop. It's not perfect, but then what do you expect for 60 quid :)

For AI, I switched to Inkscape, and that is pretty nice, and completely free.

Like most other Free/OpenSource apps, they only get better at the rate that volunteers improve upon the features.

Blender is the same way, but they try to work on things which is why they started doing the projects IIRC. Use the software to develop a movie and see where the workflow/UI needs to be adjusted. Make the changes, then do another movie project.

Lightwolf
12-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Ok, I understand your question now. I think "cloud" is/is becoming a dirty word, people hear cloud and scream :help:
Yup, and it's got little to do with the change.
Mind it, it looks like Adobe is turning into a four letter word as well nowadays... :D

3DBob
12-06-2011, 01:57 PM
As far as I am concerned Adobes name is mud now.

3DBob

JCG
12-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Yup, and it's got little to do with the change.
Mind it, it looks like Adobe is turning into a four letter word as well nowadays... :D

It got mixed into the change because the rental of locally installed apps appeared like it was going to be offered through the "Adobe Creative Cloud."

Lightwolf
12-06-2011, 03:26 PM
It got mixed into the change because the rental of locally installed apps appeared like it was going to be offered through the "Adobe Creative Cloud."
And it will be. Which isn't that bad an offer since it's quite a bit cheaper than their existing rental by the looks of it.

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
12-06-2011, 05:30 PM
I just had to look that up, I thought Dreamweaver got dropped years ago. People still use it then?

Yup, and it's still the only WYSIWYG HTML editor out there, besides the underpowered Kompozer (AFAIK). Everything else is just one-way HTML export.

Dodgy
12-06-2011, 07:45 PM
Yup, and it's still the only WYSIWYG HTML editor out there, besides the underpowered Kompozer (AFAIK). Everything else is just one-way HTML export.

It's always surprised me that Mozilla hasn't made a really powerful html editor to go alongside Firefox. Anyone know a really good one? I have Komposer at the mo, but that is still a bit buggy and incomplete in some areas.

Cryonic
12-06-2011, 09:10 PM
It's always surprised me that Mozilla hasn't made a really powerful html editor to go alongside Firefox. Anyone know a really good one? I have Komposer at the mo, but that is still a bit buggy and incomplete in some areas.

It doesn't surprise me. It takes a lot more effort to create html than it does to display it. WYSWIG is a great idea, until you start drilling down into the heart of it to see what a huge mess it can make of things if not thought through from the get go. Look at old Frontpage code or what M$ does to office documents when you turn them into HTML/CSS.

Silkrooster
12-06-2011, 10:48 PM
Yup, and it's still the only WYSIWYG HTML editor out there, besides the underpowered Kompozer (AFAIK). Everything else is just one-way HTML export.

I have a strong feeling Dreamweaver is on its last legs. Adobe is promoting a new app aim at designers that does all the coding for them. The problem is, it is extremely expensive. High enough small companies and hobbiest will be left in the cold, if it becomes the only option. Thats a big if though. Too early to tell yet.

Silkrooster
12-06-2011, 10:53 PM
It doesn't surprise me. It takes a lot more effort to create html than it does to display it. WYSWIG is a great idea, until you start drilling down into the heart of it to see what a huge mess it can make of things if not thought through from the get go. Look at old Frontpage code or what M$ does to office documents when you turn them into HTML/CSS.

WYSWIG has nothing to do with the code being messed up. It MS way of injecting its own code into the mix to force browsers to see what they could have using normal html/css. But then again, back during frontpage days, html and css was still quite new. But that don't explain Word's XML code. Most of that isn't even needed.

Exception
12-07-2011, 02:56 AM
I have a strong feeling Dreamweaver is on its last legs. Adobe is promoting a new app aim at designers that does all the coding for them. The problem is, it is extremely expensive. High enough small companies and hobbiest will be left in the cold, if it becomes the only option. Thats a big if though. Too early to tell yet.

Except that designers are often asked to improve an existing design rather than just build a new one from scratch. Dreamweaver is the only option, as it can import html to edit. Most other programs can't do that.

Cryonic
12-07-2011, 11:15 AM
WYSWIG has nothing to do with the code being messed up. It MS way of injecting its own code into the mix to force browsers to see what they could have using normal html/css. But then again, back during frontpage days, html and css was still quite new. But that don't explain Word's XML code. Most of that isn't even needed.

Well, unless the system reoptimizes the html/css after each change, then the backend will get worse if you don't design the pages from the get-go with a layout in mind.
Not sure how much longer things like Dreamweaver will be needed given the takeoff of CMSes like Drupal, Joomla, etc...

Greenlaw
12-07-2011, 11:42 AM
Over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, Adobe offered CS 5.5 Design Premium upgrades for around $450 for CS4 DP users. Honestly, I wasn't planning to upgrade but at this price I couldn't resist. (I'm such a sucker.) :)

If having upgrade sales like this becomes normal, that would be all right with me. I'm not wild about the new upgrade prices/policies or the subscription service but reasonably priced upgrades for software that shouldn't 'expire' are okay with me.

Greenlaw
12-07-2011, 11:46 AM
That reminds me: many years ago, my Mac copy of Adobe Premiere actually did expire. It was pretty weird...I hadn't used my Mac for a few years and one day I decided I needed to go back to it to render a video, when the software announced that this version was 'expired' and I needed to purchase an upgrade. I thought that was totally messed up. (This was way back in ancient OS 9.x days, and no, I didn't bother to upgrade to the next version of Premiere.)

This made me wonder if all Adobe products had a built-in expiration day.

G.

robertoortiz
12-07-2011, 12:05 PM
I have a strong feeling Dreamweaver is on its last legs. Adobe is promoting a new app aim at designers that does all the coding for them. The problem is, it is extremely expensive. High enough small companies and hobbiest will be left in the cold, if it becomes the only option. Thats a big if though. Too early to tell yet.

All of the sudden it seems like we are back in the 90's. A time that you had to take a car loan to afford your software, let alone the hardware.
WARNING: Rampant speculation coming up.
And what scares me about this subscription model they are pushing, is how long until we start seeing exclusive features in the Cloud version of the app?
Or that high-end clients will start demanding that freelancers be part of the Adobe cloud in order for them to work on a project.

dblincoe
12-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I don't know. As long as I have the clients and a back log of projects the subscription is great. I've had it for a year now. They actually sent me an email saying my cost for the master collection subscription would drop to $49.00/month if I have the year subscription or $79.00/month if I have the month to month. Again, not horrible for the studio that has the backlog. Easily passed thru to the client(s) that have projects requiring the use of the software. And you are always on the most recent version.

I pay that for my cell phone...I think I am more productive and have made more with Photoshop than with my phone.

JonW
12-07-2011, 01:13 PM
If I need or want something I buy it. I'm not going to start leasing hammers, drills & saws etc. I have always paid cash for my cars. The last one is a 96 model & still going well. The one thing in my life I borrowed money for was property, but I paid that off years ago by putting every last dollar into the mortgage, against my accounts advice!

The minute the average person starts leasing things it's the beginning of a down hill financial spiral.

dblincoe
12-07-2011, 01:31 PM
If I need or want something I buy it. I'm not going to start leasing hammers, drills & saws etc. I have always paid cash for my cars. The last one is a 96 model & still going well. The one thing in my life I borrowed money for was property, but I paid that off years ago by putting every last dollar into the mortgage, against my accounts advice!

The minute the average person starts leasing things it's the beginning of a down hill financial spiral.

True. But if you find yourself wanting the hammer/tool industry to keep improving their product and offer you a discounted rate to get the new product then eventually something would have to change. Sometimes we forget that while we need the tools to make our living, making the tools is how they make theirs.

How many clients ask you to trade services or give them discounts or try to talk your estimates down. We all deal with that. I can't provide them an animation with all the bells and whistles if they want to don't want to pay.

Not saying that it is right/wrong. Just that the subscription based approach has worked for me. It was especially helpful when I couldn't plop down all the cash for the master suite but needed the tools. As with most things it's not an across the board "one size fits all" thing. Because it is used by hobbyist, start-ups, small and large studios, Adobe must keep their pricing, bundling and upgrade policies flexible.

tischbein3
12-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Yeah, I waited so long for Gimp to get decent I gave up and looked for an alternative.
Yes, but at least, it seems they are on the right track. The single window option for example is a hudge step forward to organize the clutter.


Photoplus was the closest I could find to photoshop. It's not perfect, but then what do you expect for 60 quid :)
Well I went to the adobe land (production premium) soon after the pixel debacle was becomming ridicilous.
Interestingly, through a obscure upgrade path I did "enjoyed" a non extended photoshop versions for a few weeks... and was really surprised, how little more it actually offers in comparison to the alternatives... (in contreary to extended)
Anyway, still thanks for the tip, I'll check it out, maybe it can find a perfect home on my the 2nd / 3rd pc.



For AI, I switched to Inkscape, and that is pretty nice, and completely free.
Completly agree on this one.

Lightwolf
12-07-2011, 05:23 PM
WARNING: Rampant speculation coming up.
And what scares me about this subscription model they are pushing, is how long until we start seeing exclusive features in the Cloud version of the app?

That would require a cloud based version of the applications in the Suites in the first place.
The cloud based applications offered by Adobe at the moment are different applications. And I seriously doubt that there'll be a cloud base AE or Premiere any time soon - even if it's optional. Heck, it doesn't even make sense for PS or InDesign in a pro environment.

Or that high-end clients will start demanding that freelancers be part of the Adobe cloud in order for them to work on a project.
Then it's just like any other requirement that clients have... which can be anything from drug tests to the exact applications to use.
Nothing new...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
12-07-2011, 05:31 PM
If I need or want something I buy it.
You do realise that you don't actually own any of the software you use, right? Certainly none of the commercial products (and even GPL and LGPL limits the ownership).
All you own are usage rights, which are licensed to you (on varying terms).

I certainly agree though, US$50 per month isn't that bad, especially as a cost of doing business. That's roughly 3-4 years worth of usage if a suite is purchased (roughly) - and that's without any upgrades. Add those (one per year) and it'd take 5-6 years at least for the purchase of a license to be cheaper. Not taking anything else into account (taxes, cost of financing, etc.)

On the positive side it's directly deductible and doesn't affect the cash flow - so it's preferable from a taxes based PoV in many situations as well.

If you don't make any money with it then it's certainly different though.

Cheers,
Mike

JonW
12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
One is only a temporary custodian of everything. Even one's car & home there is a list a mile long of what you can't do.

jwiede
12-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Well, I'm glad I went for the CS5 upgrade to PS (skipped CS4, just wasn't worthwhile to me). Adobe's been in the doghouse, IMO, since they killed off GoLive and Mac FrameMaker (the best book production software there was). I'll keep PS up to date, as well as Lightroom, but already have alternatives for most other needs. I have an ancient Premiere license I might upgrade before CS6 just to be safe, as well, but only if the price isn't too ridiculous.

wesleycorgi
12-08-2011, 06:42 AM
Adobe's been in the doghouse, IMO, since they killed off GoLive and Mac FrameMaker (the best book production software there was).
I like Adobe products in general, but I used to like Adobe better before they bought Macromedia, because I liked Macromedia (and Aldus way before) more. I'm glad Adobe kept Dreamweaver and Fireworks, but I'm still po'd over Freehand. It was a lot more intuitive than Illustrator, could do multiple pages (I know AI does now but not as well), and still has some features that AI doesn't. I kept it on my Mac as long as I could to do the dozens of operations that AI can't or doesn't do well.

Also, I hate how Adobe has let Director languish, yet still sells the product at a premium. As a non-programmer, I loved creating things in Director. They should outright kill it or sell it.

dblincoe
12-08-2011, 08:20 AM
I like Adobe products in general, but I used to like Adobe better before they bought Macromedia, because I liked Macromedia (and Aldus way before) more. I'm glad Adobe kept Dreamweaver and Fireworks, but I'm still po'd over Freehand. It was a lot more intuitive than Illustrator, could do multiple pages (I know AI does now but not as well), and still has some features that AI doesn't. I kept it on my Mac as long as I could to do the dozens of operations that AI can't or doesn't do well.

Also, I hate how Adobe has let Director languish, yet still sells the product at a premium. As a non-programmer, I loved creating things in Director. They should outright kill it or sell it.
Yeah, Adobe has done that with a lot of merging software they see as potential tech they could incorporate or if they see it as potential competition.

I wish they did something more with Canoma (which was also briefly held by macromedia I believe). They bought it years ago and never did anything with it...it just died. I think some of the tech was introduced into Atmosphere??? Canoma was a great photogrammetry software especially for the price. I still use it for some things today but really wish it could be updated.

Titus
12-08-2011, 09:19 AM
That reminds me: many years ago, my Mac copy of Adobe Premiere actually did expire.

Yeah, it happened to me as well. It was Premiere 5 I think.

biliousfrog
12-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Well, I'm glad I went for the CS5 upgrade to PS (skipped CS4, just wasn't worthwhile to me). Adobe's been in the doghouse, IMO, since they killed off GoLive and Mac FrameMaker (the best book production software there was). I'll keep PS up to date, as well as Lightroom, but already have alternatives for most other needs. I have an ancient Premiere license I might upgrade before CS6 just to be safe, as well, but only if the price isn't too ridiculous.

If you're going to go for more than one Adobe application I'd definitely consider a suite. I admit that they are much more appealing if you use After Effects but they are still a much better price than buying seperately. When I bought CS3 I found the Production suite for £100 more than buying After Effects alone...that means that I got Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, Encore, Soundbooth and a few other applications for £100, bargain!

Lewis
12-12-2011, 04:55 AM
For AI, I switched to Inkscape, and that is pretty nice, and completely free.

Can it open latest PDF files and save them as *.AI v8.0 (last one modeler can import) ?

thanks

EDIT: Downloaded, installed, tested - NOPE it can't :(. It opens PDF but don't have Save to *.ai format and EPS he saves LWmodeler don't open so its back to Corel or Illustrator :(.

GregMalick
12-12-2011, 08:28 AM
Over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, Adobe offered CS 5.5 Design Premium upgrades for around $450 for CS4 DP users. Honestly, I wasn't planning to upgrade but at this price I couldn't resist. (I'm such a sucker.) :)

If having upgrade sales like this becomes normal, that would be all right with me. I'm not wild about the new upgrade prices/policies or the subscription service but reasonably priced upgrades for software that shouldn't 'expire' are okay with me.

You're not a sucker... I did the same.
I figured it positioned me for future upgrades and was a decent price.

Cutman
12-12-2011, 08:54 AM
I have been avoiding Adobe quite successfully for years.

I use the following alternative creative apps on the Mac:
Motion (& Shake) instead of AE
Pixelmator & Gimp instead of PS
Flux 3 & Hype instead of Dreamweaver. Check out Flux 3 it's fantastic and really cheap but fully featured and superior to DW imho. In the App Store.
Vector designer & Inkscape instead of AI

I looked elsewhere because a few years ago the exchange rate was almost two dollars to the UK pound but adobe kept their almost 1 to 1 dollar to pound pricing. This meant it was very nearly double the price to UK customers for the same software, a rip off. I looked elsewhere and haven't looked back.

JBT27
12-12-2011, 09:59 AM
I don't have a problem with the subscription idea ... we do make money with this stuff, and that monthly outgoing is OK.

Lightwolf made a valid point about purchase versus subscription, which I know first hand, as after years of using a mish-mash of Adobe versions of this and that and not having them work together because of it, this past summer, I dropped cash on the upgrade to the Master Suite, and I did so from our old Macromedia Studio 8 license ... that was still an eye-watering £1,600, or something, maybe a tad less ... a wedge anyway :D

I'm very glad I have the latest and greatest now, and it works a treat, though I did consider leasing ... tough call ... as has been pointed out, you never actually own this stuff anyway ... it's just I wasn't happy at the thought of being tied to the internet connection to keep running ...

Julian.

colkai
12-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Serif Photoplus is a pretty good clone of photoshop in that it has pretty much everything PS 7 had (in the same interface pretty much), and some stuff that the latest PS still doesn't have (Like live transforms which undo one move at a time, NOT all the way back to when you selected the item to move... Curse you PS! Or the ability to stack filters and see the results before confirming, and other bots and pieces)

The best thing about it? The price: 59.61 pounds
A recommendation from you is good enough for me Mike!
Especially as Serif have just offered me PhotoPlus X4 with a panorama stitcher AND a free ream of photo paper for 9.95. :D :D
Done deal. :thumbsup:

biliousfrog
12-13-2011, 02:32 AM
I have been avoiding Adobe quite successfully for years.....



I'm sure many would use alternatives if they didn't need to share files with others. It's bad enough that After Effects can't open files from newer versions of itself (save save to an older version) let alone dealing with completely different applications.

I've just spoken to an Adobe customer service rep (which was like pulling teeth) about upgrading my CS3 production premium to CS5.5. I have asked several times before in various ways and never got a definitive answer - "If I upgrade, can I still use CS3 alongside CS5.5?"

The answer was NO. You can use one or the other.

Because of how bad After Effects is with reading/saving its files, that is an issue because I will have to buy the full product rather than upgrade.

An example of how this was a complete PITA recently - I started working on a project in CS3 and handed it over to my customer to finish. They were using CS4 (unknown to me) which became a problem when they needed help finishing something off because I couldn't open it. We quickly decided that I'd grab the CS5 demo and finished it in that...now neither of us can open the file without CS5+. 8/

JonW
12-13-2011, 04:50 AM
We many have various issues with LW but at least we can still open stuff & redo old scenes. Not only do you have to keep upgrading it looks like they want you (gun at head) to keep half a dozen licenses on the go. Bouncers have more finesse than this!

souzou
12-13-2011, 07:30 AM
I've just spoken to an Adobe customer service rep (which was like pulling teeth) about upgrading my CS3 production premium to CS5.5. I have asked several times before in various ways and never got a definitive answer - "If I upgrade, can I still use CS3 alongside CS5.5?"

The answer was NO. You can use one or the other.


We've got CS3 and CS5 running alongside each other on both PC (Win7) and Mac (10.5.8) without any problems. One is part of master suite the other part of production premium. Don't know if that's changed in 5.5 (though can't see why).

biliousfrog
12-13-2011, 08:01 AM
We've got CS3 and CS5 running alongside each other on both PC (Win7) and Mac (10.5.8) without any problems. One is part of master suite the other part of production premium. Don't know if that's changed in 5.5 (though can't see why).

Are they both under the same licence, ie. is the CS5 an upgrade of the CS3? That's what I have been trying to find out. Adobe seem to be saying that it isn't possible to upgrade CS3 to CS5+ and have both installed and working, I'd have to buy a full licence.

souzou
12-13-2011, 08:14 AM
Are they both under the same licence, ie. is the CS5 an upgrade of the CS3? That's what I have been trying to find out. Adobe seem to be saying that it isn't possible to upgrade CS3 to CS5+ and have both installed and working, I'd have to buy a full licence.

Both are upgrades. On the PC it was an upgrade from CS3 web premium + standalone CS3 AE to CS5 master suite. On the mac an upgrade from CS3 production suite to CS5 production suite.

biliousfrog
12-13-2011, 08:36 AM
Both are upgrades. On the PC it was an upgrade from CS3 web premium + standalone CS3 AE to CS5 master suite. On the mac an upgrade from CS3 production suite to CS5 production suite.

Great, well, as if I needed any more proof, Adobe support are obviously morons. Thanks:thumbsup:

Lito
12-13-2011, 08:46 AM
I am sure it is not a technical issue, you most likely can run CS3 with CS5 with no problems at all. Though it is probably a breach of the license to run both CS3 and CS5 where CS3 was "upgraded" to CS5. Adobe customer service will never say you can run both at the same time, if they did it would be like saying the CS3 license was still valid. When you upgrade a program I am sure it is somehow worded on some EULA or purchase agreement, that you are basically invalidating your current license for the new one you upgraded to for a price break on the new version. I am sure many places still use the older version of their software at the same time use upgraded versions of that software at the same time, but technically it is a breach of the license that is not really enforced. Though given the state of the DRM in most software, it should be easy for a company like Adobe to invalidate the older software license when you register your upgraded version (and I am sure they will at some point).

dwburman
12-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Even if you can't run both at the same time, you might be able to deactivate one version and reactivate the other. I have heard that there is a limit to the number of times you can activate a license before you have to explain yourself to Adobe in order to keep it working.

rwhunt99
12-18-2011, 02:27 PM
IMO, if a company has to go the subscription route, either they are losing customers (simply not upgrading on a regular basis), or they see a future of less and less innovation in a mature software product. It is a better way to continue to make money by simply implying that you will see improvements in a rented product and possibly a forced payment for support.
I will never support a company like that. Especially one that I feel is overpriced to start with.

biliousfrog
12-19-2011, 04:35 AM
IMO, if a company has to go the subscription route, either they are losing customers (simply not upgrading on a regular basis), or they see a future of less and less innovation in a mature software product. It is a better way to continue to make money by simply implying that you will see improvements in a rented product and possibly a forced payment for support.
I will never support a company like that. Especially one that I feel is overpriced to start with.

Perhaps you'd consider your employer paying you a fixed amount when they feel that you have done an acceptable amount of work rather than a regular subscription? Would you find that you are more productive or more cautious?

Personally, I prefer to buy products as/when I need them but I can completely understand why developers have subscription services. It must be incredibly difficult to be innovative when they can't guarantee an income. At least, when they know that there's a steady stream of cash coming in to the company, they can budget for development better. Without a subscription the company has no way of knowing for sure whether they'll sell 1 unit or 1,000,000 units so, often, development will be done cautiously with focus on flashy new features for a quick sale rather than steady, solid development across the board.

jwiede
12-19-2011, 06:15 AM
Flux 3 & Hype instead of Dreamweaver.
I've been using Flux since it first came out, and it's impressive both in capability / power, and in how inexpensive it is. I just added Hype (after reading your post, hadn't heard of it before), but agree it's quite powerful as well, and makes a great combo together with Flux. Thanks!

tburbage
12-19-2011, 12:59 PM
To me, the primary upside of suites, if the vendor does more than pay lip service to integration, is that they can be designed in a sense as a functional unit, with complementary features. If the suite is too broad, though, I feel like I'm buying software I just don't need, and with an inflated price on account of "look at all the amazing functionality we are bundling together for you". Really, my main concern about suites is that I think they tend to force specialization in the apps in a way we may not like. For example, say Maya users want to see tools like retopology added to their built-in toolset, but the marketing guys decide no, that will go into Mudbox instead. Well, OK, if you are a Suite subscriber, but lets say you only use Maya, and prefer ZBrush instead... It just seems to me that the advances in the individual products become less aggressive and the marketers start having too much influence over product development direction and decisions.

I think suites, again using AD as an example, have had the positive influence of forcing some common data exchange standards to be adopted so i.e. Max and XSI and Maya and Mudbox and MB can successfully exchange data to form a pipeline. Even though FBX is AD proprietary, it seems to me that its support has improved enough for that to help other apps to fit in as well. It may also make it more likely that other emerging standards like Alembic and Ptex will get broad support.

Per subscriptions, I have been on subscription for Maya for a long time and am generally happy about it. The thing about subscriptions to me is that assuming the price level is considered reasonable, the key issue is whether the app in question is being developed aggressively, and whether that development is in the feature areas the subscriber cares about. You have to have a certain level of faith in the development team and its decision-makers. If yes, then great and keep it coming. If not, upgrade/subscription renewal anxiety ensues... Per the initial post topic, you used to be able to vote with your upgrade decision on whether the new version provided you with what you thought was adequate value. With subscriptions, you typically can't just drop out for a cycle and expect to get back in without a big penalty. I see that as a significant risk: folks can ***** on forums all they want, but our purchasing decision is really the best possible vote we have and I hate to see that leverage weakened.

For active/professional users, I don't see subscriptions and suites as they are currently offered as necessarily a bad thing overall, but for the part-timer or hobbyist, it seems like it just escalates the cost and anxiety factor.

Well, back to the original post, I don't think it is unreasonable to reward users for their ongoing support, but I would have advised Adobe (if I had any influence) to impose a sliding scale on the upgrade cost, or perhaps at least make a one time offer to bring folks up-to-date at "reasonable" cost.

Cutman
12-21-2011, 04:34 AM
I've been using Flux since it first came out, and it's impressive both in capability / power, and in how inexpensive it is. I just added Hype (after reading your post, hadn't heard of it before), but agree it's quite powerful as well, and makes a great combo together with Flux. Thanks!

Pleased to have helped.

I'm hoping Hype gets a serious update as it shows some great promise.

What can I say about Flux other than I wish I had come across it earlier!

Both great products for the small amount of money they cost and proof there is a life outside the Adobe hegemony.

Cheers

Happy New Year one and all...

achrystie
12-21-2011, 05:30 AM
Subscriptions are imposed on consumers by companies that think they have a strong market share and want to provide as little as possible to the buyer for the maximum price.

Simply put, the reason Adobe, can, and probably will, get away with the upgrade changes, and eventually transition to a subscription model, is because you allow them to. Too many artists are afraid to learn and/or use different software, and this creates a market that is driven by fear. There are "many" alternatives to Photoshop and the like, you just need to take the step to do the work to learn something new. I would guess that there are certainly cases where features in Adobe products are considered "essential", but I would suspect that the vast MAJORITY of use does not require the odd bits that other programs don't have, and thus the only reason to continue using Adobe is fear of learning new things, and fear of losing compatibility.

If people finally get over that fear, then the pricing will come down, and the upgrade model will change again, if they don't, the market will have just handed yet another large corporation their money on a platter for as little provided value as possible.

To put it another way, providing as little as possible for as high a price as possible, is the very definition of what businesses (all of them) try to do. There are no "nice guys", other than a handful of individuals in a company, which is why small outfits often offer much better service than large ones. Investing your money on subscriptions in hopes to "support the company" and expect them to do right with that money, is naive at best. Once they have your investment, you've lost your bargaining chip.

wibly wobly
12-23-2011, 06:53 AM
I really hope other competitors come out because of this. Ever since the CS started shipping I've been steadily loosing confidence with Adobe. I remember when AE was a tiny, tiny program that would launch in 2 sec. Now it's just a bit hog, just like everything they're making now. I'd like to give Fusion a go but it costs so much more and I tend to do some motion stuff so AE probably suits most of the things that I do better. There aren't really too many alternatives for compositing that I know of.

Lightwolf
12-23-2011, 06:57 AM
Subscriptions are imposed on consumers by companies that think they have a strong market share and want to provide as little as possible to the buyer for the maximum price.

That may be a reason for some companies (or one of many for some) - however, I wouldn't generalise like that.
There's a number of advantages for users (especially professional ones) that may come with subscription models.
Especially from smaller companies that don't have a strong market share actually.

Cheers,
Mike

tischbein3
12-24-2011, 07:20 AM
Subscriptions are imposed on consumers by companies that think they have a strong market share and want to provide as little as possible to the buyer for the maximum price.

A, subscription model primarly serves a vehicle to bound the customer to a company more closely. period. If its better or worser or does make no difference for anyone involved is up to the conditions.

Sarford
01-03-2012, 08:30 AM
Personally, I prefer to buy products as/when I need them but I can completely understand why developers have subscription services. It must be incredibly difficult to be innovative when they can't guarantee an income. At least, when they know that there's a steady stream of cash coming in to the company, they can budget for development better. Without a subscription the company has no way of knowing for sure whether they'll sell 1 unit or 1,000,000 units so, often, development will be done cautiously with focus on flashy new features for a quick sale rather than steady, solid development across the board.

This has nothing to do with the new pricing scam of Adobe. A couple of years ago the stockholders of Adobe complained that they wanted more money. Reason was that the price of the stock only increased during the release of new suites, every 18 months. Ever since have adobe been looking to squeeze more money from there customers, first by upping the release scedule with the .5 releases, and now with the subscription and the update-now-or-never-again threat.

Ernest
01-03-2012, 04:38 PM
This has nothing to do with the new pricing scam of Adobe. A couple of years ago the stockholders of Adobe complained that they wanted more money. Reason was that the price of the stock only increased during the release of new suites, every 18 months. Ever since have adobe been looking to squeeze more money from there customers, first by upping the release scedule with the .5 releases, and now with the subscription and the update-now-or-never-again threat.

That reminds me of that old story of a group of investors who owned stock on a goose. And the goose would lay a golden egg every 18 months.

dblincoe
01-03-2012, 04:45 PM
This has nothing to do with the new pricing scam of Adobe. A couple of years ago the stockholders of Adobe complained that they wanted more money. Reason was that the price of the stock only increased during the release of new suites, every 18 months. Ever since have adobe been looking to squeeze more money from there customers, first by upping the release scedule with the .5 releases, and now with the subscription and the update-now-or-never-again threat.

Not sure they are entirely money hungry. I got notice from Adobe that my subscription service is dropping by almost $50.00. If they were just after my money wouldn't they just keep me at my contracted amount? Guess you could argue that they saw a decrease in sales so they had to drop the price, but they still offered the reduced price to me without my inquiry.

Sarford
01-04-2012, 08:07 AM
Not sure they are entirely money hungry. I got notice from Adobe that my subscription service is dropping by almost $50.00. If they were just after my money wouldn't they just keep me at my contracted amount? Guess you could argue that they saw a decrease in sales so they had to drop the price, but they still offered the reduced price to me without my inquiry.

Well, being on subscription is more expensive then upgrading your suite every 18 months, and with perpetual licenses you could skip one or two versions, making subscriptions even more expensive.
When you don't own CS5.5, you are forced to update twice to get to CS6 and stay in the upgrade path which is a bit of a money grab since CS6 is expected around coming April.
And once they've brought the upgrade path down to the latest version, they can very easily increase the upgrade prices since people have no other option then to upgrade or buy a new package, no more skipping.
There are maybe other options for PS and AI, but are they available for all platforms and can they read and write PSD and AI files? But are there viable options for AE, Indesign, Premiere, Flash (no, not HTML5)?

dblincoe
01-04-2012, 08:30 AM
I'm not sure how/why the software industry and software users got in this relationship...it seems to be the only industry in which the user expects to get new updated products for next to nothing ($). In other industries that have more expensive or even similarly priced products the users don't demand free/reduced pricing for the next best thing. Do we think that software developers don't live in the same world with the same standards of living and costs of doing business, employ talented people, etc. Now how the subscription program works can vary and it shouldn't include a forced update every time, which is what I think most people hate.

I can totally understand why some don't like the subscription model, but I can also see why developers want to create a steady revenue stream. From that they can easily determine demand (or captive audience if you prefer), they can quickly eliminate outdated tech/software/features/platforms that is costly to create patches/updates/fixes for, and they have a steady income for their business.

I know I prefer when I can get an client on a retainer for x number of projects for x number of months instead of worrying about when/if we'll have contracts negotiated, approved and signed. So in sense their my subscriber(captive audience). :D

kosmodave
01-04-2012, 02:20 PM
Actually I think selling discounted updates is the least they can do as software vendors seem to be the only businesses that can knowingly sell defective goods and are allowed to get away with it. Who can say they have a piece of software that is bug free? For instance how long have we all accepted the bugs in Lightwave, loads that even Newtek have said will not be addressed in the LW11 cycle but many people have jumped in and purchased it without hesitation. But if for example you or I purchased a TV that the volume control did not function properly, we would not accept it and rightly demand it be put right.
I'm not complaining, but I can't think of any other business type that can get away with selling faulty goods as a matter of course.

Dave.

Lightwolf
01-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Who can say they have a piece of software that is bug free?
Some do... but you couldn't afford it. Not even with a mortgage as well as selling your first-born... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

kosmodave
01-04-2012, 02:50 PM
Some do... but you couldn't afford it. Not even with a mortgage as well as selling your first-born... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

:)

Actually If we waited for bug free software we would probably all grow too old in the process to use the finished product. I personally don't mind the odd bug as having dabbled with programming in the past I am quite aware of the pain involved in debugging etc. I also marvel at PC software programmers who have to deal with a whole variety of unknown hardware that the customer may be using, makes me wonder why the Mac version of some software can be so problematic seeing as the majority of the hardware is a known quantity.

Dave

dblincoe
01-04-2012, 02:52 PM
For instance how long have we all accepted the bugs in Lightwave, loads that even Newtek have said will not be addressed in the LW11 cycle but many people have jumped in and purchased it without hesitation.

Dave.

I can't think of one "bug" that has rendered the package completely useless. For that matter I can't think of one "bug" that has kept me from working in LW10 for the past year and LW11 for the past couple of months. If you are talking improved features that is another thing. Remember while we are here discussing that LW should squish bugs before release, there is another bandwagon stringing them up for not releasing the software fast enough.

dblincoe
01-04-2012, 02:53 PM
:)

Actually If we waited for bug free software we would probably all grow too old in the process to use the finished product. I personally don't mind the odd bug as having dabbled with programming in the past I am quite aware of the pain involved in debugging etc. I also marvel at PC software programmers who have to deal with a whole variety of unknown hardware that the customer may be using, makes me wonder why the Mac version of some software can be so problematic seeing as the majority of the hardware is a known quantity.

Dave

:agree:

Lightwolf
01-04-2012, 04:38 PM
Actually If we waited for bug free software we would probably all grow too old in the process to use the finished product.
Well, there are techniques to minimise the potential for errors. But, they both heavily slow down the development process (-> higher cost) and also risk slowing down the software itself.

Cheers,
Mike

Dodgy
01-04-2012, 07:07 PM
I'm not sure how/why the software industry and software users got in this relationship...it seems to be the only industry in which the user expects to get new updated products for next to nothing ($).

I'm not against that, I put my money up for LW every time, but with Adobe I harbour a grudge from the time it was $2=1 UK pound, and they were still charging 600 pounds for PS when it was $630 in the states. At the same time, NT was actually charging slightly less in the UK than it was in the States for LW. That really irked me and put me off their software. I don't mind some price fluctuation, but really, double the price?

Inkscape will open older AI files (up to about 10 I think) and Photoplus will open and save multilayer PSD files, and it supports pretty much all the same layers and layer options, so it shouldn't lose much if anything...

Waves of light
01-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Well, right now I would love to be able to get CS5.5 Master Suite and get into AE. However, look at the differences in price (keep in mind that the current exchange rate is 1 GBP = 1.5542 USD

US:
Full version: $2,599 which would be £1663.36 (with exchange rate)
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): $1,399 / £895.36

UK:
Full version: £2,763
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): £1,524

And that's just to upgrade to 5.5. I would then have to do it all again when CS6 comes out.

I don't understand why we have to pay more based on where we live. Yes, charge me shipping if the item has to come from the US (I could even opt for the download version) but nearly double for the same product... come on.

Lightwave upgrade to 11: $695 = £444.8 say no more.

Red_Oddity
01-05-2012, 08:16 AM
Well, right now I would love to be able to get CS5.5 Master Suite and get into AE. However, look at the differences in price (keep in mind that the current exchange rate is 1 GBP = 1.5542 USD

US:
Full version: $2,599 which would be £1663.36 (with exchange rate)
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): $1,399 / £895.36

UK:
Full version: £2,763
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): £1,524

And that's just to upgrade to 5.5. I would then have to do it all again when CS6 comes out.

I don't understand why we have to pay more based on where we live. Yes, charge me shipping if the item has to come from the US (I could even opt for the download version) but nearly double for the same product... come on.

Lightwave upgrade to 11: $695 = £444.8 say no more.

This dead horse is such a pile of minced meat by now, it's ridiculous.
The simple reason they pull this is because they can, there is just no true replacement for their suites, and every bit of competition on the market pretty much is DOA, is it by market penetration, being assimilated or by getting dragged to court over vague patents.

Simply put when asking Adobe truthfully as to why:

Why? because f**k you, that's why.

Lightwolf
01-05-2012, 08:21 AM
I don't understand why we have to pay more based on where we live. Yes, charge me shipping if the item has to come from the US...
While I agree on the general sentiment... don't forget to compare prices before VAT to be fair.

Charging (slightly) more for a download than a boxed version is ridiculous as well.

Cheers,
Mike

dblincoe
01-05-2012, 08:38 AM
While I agree on the general sentiment... don't forget to compare prices before VAT to be fair.

Charging (slightly) more for a download than a boxed version is ridiculous as well.

Cheers,
Mike

I was just getting ready to ask that...doesn't make sense that a download (which the subscriptions are) be any different in price for oversees than in U.S.

Lightwolf
01-05-2012, 09:11 AM
I was just getting ready to ask that...doesn't make sense that a download (which the subscriptions are) be any different in price for oversees than in U.S.
That depends. If there is a subsidiary of the company within the same commercial area (i.e. country or common market) then local rules apply, regardless of where the content is hosted.

A few reason for price differences are also compliance to different rules and laws as well as translations to other languages.
Something that companies especially from the US seem to have more problems with, and thus charge more.
(Not dissing here by the way, it's just due to being used to a large homogeneous "home" market).

Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
01-05-2012, 09:46 AM
That depends. If there is a subsidiary of the company within the same commercial area (i.e. country or common market) then local rules apply, regardless of where the content is hosted.

A few reason for price differences are also compliance to different rules and laws as well as translations to other languages.
Something that companies especially from the US seem to have more problems with, and thus charge more.
(Not dissing here by the way, it's just due to being used to a large homogeneous "home" market).

Cheers,
Mike

Problem is that Adobe charges double for the only true homogeneous market as well, namely Australia (the home market suites are not truly homogeneous, as those contain Spanish and French next to English as possible languages.)

Lightwolf
01-05-2012, 10:45 AM
Problem is that Adobe charges double for the only true homogeneous market as well, namely Australia...
Yeah, but that one is relatively tiny by population as well as remote (not that this would really matter nowadays).

Cheers,
Mike

glebe digital
01-05-2012, 12:04 PM
UK:
Full version: £2,763
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): £1,524

And that's just to upgrade to 5.5. I would then have to do it all again when CS6 comes out.

:ohmy:
That's made my day. Stick with CS4 & take the family to Lanzarote instead. . . .that's what I'll be doing.

Waves of light
01-05-2012, 12:12 PM
While I agree on the general sentiment... don't forget to compare prices before VAT to be fair.

Charging (slightly) more for a download than a boxed version is ridiculous as well.

Cheers,
Mike

Mike, yep fair enough.. £2303 without VAT so still £640 difference for not being in the US.

Oh, and I changed the drop down from 'ship the box to me' to 'download' and the VAT total went up, but not the base price???? So charged more for the download than shipping the box?

Crazy.

When will we be expecting CS6? How long do we have to upgrade to CS5.5 to still qualify. I personally cannot see how I will be able to afford this at this time.

What really pee's me off, is you just know there are people out there winning work and using pirated software.

Waves of light
01-05-2012, 12:41 PM
:ohmy:
That's made my day. Stick with CS4 & take the family to Lanzarote instead. . . .that's what I'll be doing.

Lol. Lanzarote over Adobe... ermmmm :D

I'm sure I could stick with CS4, but my suite doesn't include AE. Which is still £873 (ex VAT) versus £639 (exchange rate).

RenderBlur
01-09-2012, 06:25 PM
As a Photoshop CS3 owner I'm in the same upgrade boat. The original deadline for this new upgrade to CS5 was end of 2011 right? Then it seemed to extend out to Jan 31 2012 I think.

I just found the following info from their website and unless I'm reading this wrong, in North America it seems now to be " between October 3, 2011 and March 15, 2012."

http://store.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/discount_off_products.html

Which puts the upgrade deadline right around the time I'll be doing LW11.

-Jim

Ernest
01-09-2012, 07:12 PM
I'm not sure how/why the software industry and software users got in this relationship...it seems to be the only industry in which the user expects to get new updated products for next to nothing ($).

It started during the early days of computers, when companies bought mainframes for many millions of nothings$$ and were stuck with the mainframe provider for all their OS, terminal, software, expansion, and support needs.

If another company offered better software, the original provider didn't really have to care because, once they bought the mainframe, the client was stuck with them.

With the advent of personal computers, there came a problem. With a single, cheap platform, if you sold software to a client and then your competitor made a slightly better program, the client could (and likely would) switch without a second thought.

That's when software companies came up with the concept of "upgrades" to recover that sense of a captured market from the mainframe days.

Now, if you sold a program to a client, you didn't have to worry about your competitors releasing something slightly better. Your client would not make the huge investment on another program since they expected that they'd be able to get those features for a much lower price if they waited for their current provider to include them in a future "upgrade."

The point of releasing upgrades for "next to nothing$$" (aka hundreds or thousands of dollars) is that, as a software developer, you don't have to go and fight for your clients from scratch every time a new feature appears in the industry, which is incredibly expensive. You can just retain them, which is much cheaper.

When you have a dominant market position, like Adobe does, this is a veritable golden goose. It's money in the bank.

If Adobe goes and decides to eliminate all upgrades for some of their clients, those clients don't complain out of a sick sense of entitlement. They do exactly what anyone with any rationality would expect them to do. They look at the new features in the market and they start comparing what Adobe offers with what the competitors offer as free (not-captive) customers.

That's what I meant by killing the golden goose. In exchange for maximizing the number of CS6 upgrades, that huge mass of old Adobe customers who are not in CS5, at least, are no longer a captive market. By not offering them an upgrade path (for hundreds of nothings$$), Adobe is giving all those trapped customers away and setting them free back in the market. Now they will have to fight to win them back just as if they had never been Adobe customers.

It's the same reason why newspapers and magazines offer yearly subscriptions for "next to nothing$$" compared with buying each daily paper. So they don't have to compete for each client every day.

jaf
01-09-2012, 07:32 PM
Well, this will be interesting to watch. I suspect a lot (+80%?) of the users have all the power and features they need with cs3/4/5 and will be hard pressed to justify entering this new upgrade program. There's a "sweet spot price" that attracts hobby/amateur users, but I'm thinking this new update program will cross that line. Lightwave seems be headed in the same direction.

Now sell Photoshop CS6 upgrade at a relatively low price without tough time restrictions and offer more sophisticated add-ins (high-end features) for the pros -- they could probably cater to the amateur and pro crowds.

[edit] I think Ernest wrote what I was trying to convey while I was writing my post, but did a much better job!

biliousfrog
01-10-2012, 06:23 AM
Well, right now I would love to be able to get CS5.5 Master Suite and get into AE. However, look at the differences in price (keep in mind that the current exchange rate is 1 GBP = 1.5542 USD

US:
Full version: $2,599 which would be £1663.36 (with exchange rate)
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): $1,399 / £895.36

UK:
Full version: £2,763
Upgrade (from CS4 Web Premium): £1,524

And that's just to upgrade to 5.5. I would then have to do it all again when CS6 comes out.

I don't understand why we have to pay more based on where we live. Yes, charge me shipping if the item has to come from the US (I could even opt for the download version) but nearly double for the same product... come on.

Lightwave upgrade to 11: $695 = £444.8 say no more.

Master collection from Evasoft is under £2k for the full product, to upgrade from CS4 web premium you'd need the upsell version which is £1200

http://www.evasoft.co.uk/adobe/191-adobe-creative-suite-master-collection-cs5-5.do

I'd never buy directly from Adobe, they are always much more expensive.

Waves of light
01-10-2012, 06:33 AM
Master collection from Evasoft is under £2k for the full product, to upgrade from CS4 web premium you'd need the upsell version which is £1200

http://www.evasoft.co.uk/adobe/191-adobe-creative-suite-master-collection-cs5-5.do

I'd never buy directly from Adobe, they are always much more expensive.

Hey, thanks for that. That makes it a bit more affordable. This will probably mean it would be cheaper to buy a new full CS6 licence from evasoft when released, and by using the money I would have paid to step upgrade.

Think I will wait.

Ricky.

souzou
01-10-2012, 06:35 AM
Master collection from Evasoft is under £2k for the full product, to upgrade from CS4 web premium you'd need the upsell version which is £1200

http://www.evasoft.co.uk/adobe/191-adobe-creative-suite-master-collection-cs5-5.do

I'd never buy directly from Adobe, they are always much more expensive.

Hmm that seems too good to be true, have you ordered from them?

Couple of reviews I found:
"Be Warned!"
I took a chance and ordered expensive RETAIL software from this company. What arrived was an educational version (albeit with a serial number) from America! Both of these issues would have caused problems in regestering/upgrading in the future so what looked like a bargain price certainly wasn't...twice the price of other places selling educational versions.

"CON SITE> DO NOT PURCHASE"
Purchased indesign cs5.5 turned up on time however they sold me a education copy that had ALREADY be registered elsewhere to someone in america! live chat impossible to talk to, phone never answered. finally got through to be told to return the product to an address in bond street, went there personally and no answer. They then said they would refund me and havent. a complete con, all the good reviews must be themselves.

biliousfrog
01-10-2012, 07:30 AM
Hmm...yeah, they don't sound like very good reviews although there are around 50+ very positive ones too. I haven't used them personally.

TBH the prices seem about right to me, I bought my CS3 production premium from a local company for around £995 (full version) about 6 months after release. The prices have increased but there are some deals out there if you shop around.

Red_Oddity
01-10-2012, 07:54 AM
You are (or where, not sure what the deal is now) as a non-US citizen allowed to buy a US version and register it locally, the only thing you'll miss out on is their 'support', which is basically saying you are not allowed to call them to get personally insulted by arrogant douche bags.

kopperdrake
02-14-2012, 04:32 PM
Ressurect to moan. Adobe US are offering a 50% special on Creative Suite 5.5 Prodution Premium, making it about £540. Zipped over to the UK site to see if they have a similar deal - would you know it, comes in at £1,810.

Bless 'em.

CROUTON213
02-14-2012, 06:05 PM
Creative Suite Production Bundle 5.5 runs extremely well in my 64-bit studio. As for the cloud, I'm already there man.

My thanks to Adobe and NewTek for their awesome software products. Lightwave 3D, After Effects and SpeedEDIT are a dream come true for the top banana in our small but talented studio.

Waves of light
02-15-2012, 01:15 AM
Ressurect to moan. Adobe US are offering a 50% special on Creative Suite 5.5 Prodution Premium, making it about £540. Zipped over to the UK site to see if they have a similar deal - would you know it, comes in at £1,810.

Bless 'em.

:mad:

kopperdrake
02-15-2012, 10:08 AM
Red Oddity might well be right - I've just bought Production Premium 5.5 from Safe Harbor for $850 + shipping @ $41, grand total to me of £568, saving over £1,200! Marc at SH reckons it's okay to register it overseas, so give me a few days and we'll see if this has been worth it. If it has, I reckon it's a good deal! I couldn't upgrade my old CS2 suite for less!

T-Light
02-15-2012, 12:39 PM
kopperdrake -

Red Oddity might well be right - I've just bought Production Premium 5.5 from Safe Harbor for $850 + shipping @ $41, grand total to me of £568, saving over £1,200!
Could cost you a bit more, if UK customs spot it they may charge 20% + duty. :devil:

Still a good price mind :thumbsup:

kopperdrake
02-15-2012, 03:29 PM
Ah - you know I totally forgot about customs! I've been stung with that in the past but I'm so used to downloading software these days I hadn't even thought of that!

Red_Oddity
02-15-2012, 03:58 PM
Even with the added tax and import fees it's still a whole lot cheaper than buying locally, which when you think about it, shouldn't make any sense at all.

kopperdrake
02-15-2012, 04:52 PM
Nope - no sense. But if this works then hurrah :D I've never tried Adobe Premiere, so looking forward to that especially :)

Waves of light
02-15-2012, 05:29 PM
That brings back memories. I got slapped by customs when I bought my LW seat second hand from the states, lol.

Yep, depending on what duty they add, 20%+ is still a better saving than buying in the UK. Crazy, really crazy.

BigHache
02-15-2012, 06:04 PM
Yep, depending on what duty they add, 20%+ is still a better saving than buying in the UK. Crazy, really crazy.

I have to wonder what exactly Adobe's problem is, because the way to convince people to give you their money is not to piss them off. This is how Blockbuster Video got clocked in the side of their head by Redbox and Netflix.

Cryonic
02-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Even in the US everyone is supposed to collect sales tax when they sell items here, even second hand, but few, if any, private sales ever do and it is generally ignored by the government as they are hard to track. Especially if it was a cash sale.
"Prove I didn't sell my car for just $1..." :)

kopperdrake
02-16-2012, 03:24 AM
Really? Second-hand goods over here don't incur any value-added tax if it's a private deal and not through a VAT-registered company, which sounds more fair. Swings and roundabouts I guess - in the end we're all of us running around minus our fleeces...

moussepipi2000
02-16-2012, 07:15 AM
from cs3 to cs5 there is a very big difference. not in the tools but in the optimizations i think. when we use to work with psb data (more than 2 gb) the file open very fast on cs5 compare to cs3. save time is also considerably reduce. If you have good hardware, big file with many layers will display faster than cs3.
Some shortcut change here and there.
Open GL for 3d still slow and large object but it can be an interesting worflow for paint UV. for the moment not satisfying at all.