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netstile123
12-04-2011, 12:55 PM
ok. I have a bones set up for each leg. In place. I have weight maps for each leg. I set the bones to on with (setup) parent in place-enable deform highlighted. I hit r to reset, nothing is happening.


So I asumed it has to do with my weight maps. So I go to the bones properties and select the check mark (use weight maps only) turned bones off, than on and hit r to reset, nothing.


Is there something I have missed here. Do I need to have the bones highlighted in any way before I turn them on or reset.

Is there something I need to do to parent them to the body?


RRRRRR:help:

VonBon
12-04-2011, 01:22 PM
yes, you need to have the bones selected.

RebelHill
12-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Well they either need to be children of the mesh... or the mesh needs to be set to "use bones from" in its own bone properties for whichever item the bones are children of.

but yes, resting only works on selected bones.

netstile123
12-04-2011, 07:57 PM
Ok, I figured that out. I have to select each bone from the hier arky start and hit r as I move through each bone.


But I am now stuck with my bones moving stuff they are not suppose to be moving. Like I turn the elbo down and a circle around the body seems to be moving everything in the area. Not just the sholder.


Is there something that needs to be adjusted on the definition of the bone I am turning to stay within the range ogf the bone or do I need weight maps?



Thanks so much .. Help Pleaseeeeee

netstile123
12-04-2011, 09:25 PM
FASTER BONES....... In the bones property pannel needs to be checked along with the wieght map to not influense the rest of the modell...


I FIGURED it out.. I am not gone crazy yet tonight

RebelHill
12-05-2011, 06:00 AM
well, u dont need to hit r as u move through each bone, you can just multiselect them all and r them as one.

Oh, and no, faster bones is not the answer.

Faster bones limits each vertex to a max of 3 bone influences (rather than with it turned off where there's no limit), which is why it appears to be reining in your bones from other areas.

The proper way to manage influence is through weights, to make certain bones only affect a certain area (as defined by the map) and the use of "hold bones" in certain areas to hold chunks of geometry in place against the influence of bones elsewhere.

Surrealist.
12-05-2011, 07:03 AM
You can weigh with bones and hold bones alone also. It has been while since I have done this in LightWave but based on my recollection and opening up a bone panel here are the parameters that will affect the bone influences:

1) Fall of type. This affects all bones

2) Rest Length

3) Multiply by rest length.

4)Strength

Limited Range is also an option but I seem to remember steering away from that one, though it might work well on places like fingers. Like I said it has been a while.

You can play with all of these factors to dial in a decent deformation and then add hold bones where you need them.

But rigging is such a complex issue. It is not the kind of thing to first kind of figure out yourself and then come here for questions. There is so much available in tutorials that it is time well spent rather than pulling your hair out.

Try some of RebilHill's tuts or search the net. You'll be glad you did. :)

netstile123
12-05-2011, 08:55 AM
Thats about right. I about pulled my hair out. And you are right. Faster bones is not the altimate solution to the problem. I had to also set the weight map to bones farther up the bone chain to gain the influense of what I wanted. I did mess with limit range to see what it would do does help the effect of a bone messing with an area of your model but learned you still require a weight map. Strength seems to do almost nothing as far as I can tell.


I am still having an issue that has become a problem. And feal it is of the same topic as of BONES so I am staying in this thread.

I now have my bones opened with my model in layout. Layout requires this model to be the only model that works with the bones. I can open the model in modeler and create a weight map and save this model and it will work with the change in layout as an update.

The question is can I save the bones I have created as an object to place these bones on another model?

I would like to rename my model. As the night went on I ended up nameing my model with some bad words.

Plus I would like to have the same bones with another model so I can change textures and add props to the model.

I would like to than be able to save both configurations as an object to open up in a scene. As of now I open a layout scene to work with the boned object. What if I wanted to create a scene and open that boned model as an object?

I am guessing there is better programs for bones but thought I would give lightwave a shot that has become a really bad experience.

What is everyone else working with? I do have messiah but have not got into that. Would I be better off starting over with messiah? Or should I give skeligons a shot?

RebelHill
12-05-2011, 10:36 AM
ok, well no... layout will let u use a single set of bones with as many meshes as you like... but ofc each mesh will be moving in unison.

If you're wanting to use the same bone set in another character of the exact same proprtions, you can just clone the boned mesh (bones and all) and then just replace the mesh with another.

Bones, however, you cant load into modeler... u can use the bones to skele's plugin thats about... can be OK... but really in that case, it'd be easier to start with skele's in modeler to begin with, then reuse those for each character.

Setting up bones, getting good deforms, etc, is a highly skilled task in any software... your "bad experience" with LW won't be much different elsewhere.

LW works just fine for me (check the reel)... and will do for anyone, but you WONT learn it overnight... no chance.

Ryan Roye
12-05-2011, 11:58 AM
LW works just fine for me (check the reel)... and will do for anyone, but you WONT learn it overnight... no chance.

I'll second that. I started using Lightwave in early 2009 and still find that there's always something new to learn about the program, and new ways to use old tools. The best practice is to start simple and build from that gradually.

Surrealist.
12-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Thats about right. I about pulled my hair out. And you are right. Faster bones is not the altimate solution to the problem. I had to also set the weight map to bones farther up the bone chain to gain the influense of what I wanted. I did mess with limit range to see what it would do does help the effect of a bone messing with an area of your model but learned you still require a weight map. Strength seems to do almost nothing as far as I can tell.


I am still having an issue that has become a problem. And feal it is of the same topic as of BONES so I am staying in this thread.

I now have my bones opened with my model in layout. Layout requires this model to be the only model that works with the bones. I can open the model in modeler and create a weight map and save this model and it will work with the change in layout as an update.

The question is can I save the bones I have created as an object to place these bones on another model?

I would like to rename my model. As the night went on I ended up nameing my model with some bad words.

Plus I would like to have the same bones with another model so I can change textures and add props to the model.

I would like to than be able to save both configurations as an object to open up in a scene. As of now I open a layout scene to work with the boned object. What if I wanted to create a scene and open that boned model as an object?

I am guessing there is better programs for bones but thought I would give lightwave a shot that has become a really bad experience.

What is everyone else working with? I do have messiah but have not got into that. Would I be better off starting over with messiah? Or should I give skeligons a shot?

Basically the workflow you are looking for is "load from scene". Unfortunately I don't think there is a way to reference a rig in LightWave, unless that has changed recently.

What you do is you create a "Set Up" scene for each character. Going back to skeletons for each character would be very time consuming. Once you get one character rigged and ready to go, you can load another mesh in and do as RebelHill described to clone it and assign the bones to the new mesh. Then you may have to make some tweaks for the new character. Keep each character as a scene of its own where you work on the rig and make changes. When ready you can load the rig into the scene you need it for.

This system is less flexible than in other applications. But it works.

However, this entire subject is quite extensive. You should do yourself a favor and do some tutorials now. You will save much time and probably more important - frustration.

As a note however. If you are planing to use the same rig with multiple characters then you should try and stick to deformations with bones only and not use weights. It will be much less work.

netstile123
12-05-2011, 02:01 PM
The problem of not Being able to work on just the model in modeler or removing the current
object from the bones and creating just an bone object.

Well I figured that out. I wanted to just have the bones as an object.



Here is what I did.

I could not remove the object from the bones. And delete just the object.

Enter bone edit mode
exit bone edit mode

Than I was able to move the bones away from the object

Than I was able to select the objects in the scene that I did not want and delete them
( My Character )I now just have the bones

I renamed the bones to what I wanted them to be and saved the scene under another name.

Closed Layout.
Opened Layout.

Loaded my Scene I named my bones under. ( The Bones Now List as an object alone)

Clicked on modeler. Loaded my model, after working by itslef adding wieght maps and so on.

Send object to layout. Now I have the model object next to the bone object.

Select your bone object. Move them into place over your new character. Create Key 0

Enter Scene editor and select all your bones or how ever you do it and hit "R" for reset

Select your character and Highlight - Select bones Tab ( KEEP NONE AS YOUR CURRENT ITEM)
Hit properties, Has a box with a
pull down tab that says " use bones from" And select your bone object ____ BAM----- working new model
under your bones object.

This was very nice as well to work with the bones alone with all objects out of the way.
It was also nice to work with the model alone in modeler
without flippin back and forth through layout.

Now one thing . I never deactivated the bones at anytime, they allways stayed on. Go figure.


Not bad for 12 hours of training- and some help from you guys as well

Surrealist.
12-05-2011, 04:08 PM
In the future

Items: Replace with null. Or simply hide your mesh object.

You don't have to go through all of that. And you don't really need to be moving your rig around like that and resetting. You can hide skeletons in Molder - or as far as I remember - you don't need them so you could just save a sew object without them.

I am really not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your workflow. Everything you described is the workflow for working in Modeler and in Layout for rigging.

But I am nor sure what you are trying to accomplish with trying to remove the rig from the object in Layout. Can't get my head around what you have gained as a workflow with that.

Whatever it is you are gaining please share if I have missed something obvious.

Otherwise understand that people have figured all this out already. You'll save yourself some time by doing some tutorials.

RebelHill
12-06-2011, 04:21 AM
Yeah, I agree with Rich here...

You're going about things in a very long winded, convoluted way, which probably isnt helping you much and probably making some things harder or more confusing than they need to be.

You're also getting your terms and definitions mixed up... which isnt gonna help you one little bit, and will make it harder when trying to get help.

For instance, "bones just as an object"...

Bones are not objects, they're bones. Objects are meshes or nulls, and to move bones from one object to another is easily done either by reparenting, or by using replace object with... no need for the crazy round trips that you're doing.

You should probably first try some of the very very basic tuts in the NT 24hr collection just to familiarise yourself with the most basics of objects, bones, and parenting, etc in layout before trying to jump straight into full setups.

netstile123
12-06-2011, 09:28 AM
I really am in the beginner stages and trying to work on my FIRST project animation with bones. I am sure I will hit and miss a few times here on the subject.

I think in my case of the learning process and working so long to create something that may be simple to everyone else as a bone setup. I created an emotional strain in thinking if I do not have that copy of what I created alone I will mess it up some way or another in the flipping back and forth layout modeler and so many random saves.

Layout displays so many objects at the same time as well.

As far as my work flow- I no I have that bone setup saved and I have gone back to just working on my characters in modeler instead of making a change here and there and playing with the bones wondering "what does that do! and end up messing up my models and waisting more time and going back through the multiple saves to try to fix it.


PLUS- have you not had the problem of fliping to layout after making a change in modeler and back to modeler and there is no UNDUE available. Well for a beginner this just will not due.

Surrealist.
12-06-2011, 02:35 PM
I think you will have better luck if your goal is to do some experimentation, then set up your scenes with that in mind. That is what I usually do. I don't bring the intended project into it until a later date when I have messed around with scenes and objects I don't care about just to get my head around it. And I usually break things up into smaller projects to understand only certain aspects of the tool.

RebelHill has the right idea pointing you toward some simpler tasks to learn first.