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View Full Version : Will there be fixes to LW 10.1?



gclayton
11-17-2011, 09:44 AM
Simple question NewTek.

Will there be any fixes made to LW 10.1 for those people who chose NOT TO UPGRADE?

I would also like to see the SDK have access to the additions that were made to that version like the Virtual Studio/ 3DConnexion interfaces so that other devices can be added to that version as well.

Or can we just expect that NewTek will forget about any fixes for that version?

bpritchard
11-17-2011, 09:48 AM
I would imagine not. As with most applications, when the new version comes out the older versions are typically deprecated.

gclayton
11-17-2011, 09:51 AM
I would imagine not. As with most applications, when the new version comes out the older versions are typically deprecated.

Well not for some companies. They do provide fixes to their older versions and LW 10.1 is not that old.

Phil
11-17-2011, 10:42 AM
It's unlikely. NT have been pretty clear that 10.1 was the last of the 10.x cycle. I only remember one time when a fix for a previous version was provided despite a newer version being available (7.5d when 8.0 was available; 9.6.1 was a little different - see the OpenBeta forums for that situation).

Nonetheless, these were exceptions to an already established pattern for NewTek and I've seen nothing to suggest that they are planning anything like this again.

Matt
11-17-2011, 10:44 AM
Any fixes to 10.1 are in LightWave 11, it's kinda how it works, sorry.

GandB
11-17-2011, 11:22 AM
Any fixes to 10.1 are in LightWave 11, it's kinda how it works, sorry.

Nice.

dsol
11-17-2011, 11:34 AM
It could be worse. They could be Adobe ;)
http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/16/adobe-will-only-offer-photoshop-cs6-upgrade-price-to-cs5-owners/

JeffrySG
11-17-2011, 12:00 PM
It could be worse. They could be Adobe ;)
http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/16/adobe-will-only-offer-photoshop-cs6-upgrade-price-to-cs5-owners/

Now that's lame... stock holders want to make a profit though...

beverins
11-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Adobe does it AGAIN! They did this to me before they offered the Creative Suite.

"Sorry, Photoshop CS is a different product, no free upgrade"

gclayton
11-17-2011, 04:07 PM
Any fixes to 10.1 are in LightWave 11, it's kinda how it works, sorry.

You mean "it's kinda how NewTek works".

There are companies that will provide fixes to previous versions of their software. I know, I happened to work for one.

kopperdrake
11-17-2011, 04:55 PM
Adobe does it AGAIN! They did this to me before they offered the Creative Suite.

"Sorry, Photoshop CS is a different product, no free upgrade"

I think Photoshop is one piece of software I can afford to miss two, three or even four full upgrades on and not really miss anything. I think they're probably shooting themselves in the foot doing this, in today's climate. At the moment an agency might skip a couple of upgrades and jump to the latest, but if they're forced to pay every year for the latest version, then they'll either do that and pay every year - expensive, or work out how many years they need to keep the old version until it's worth upgrading the package for a brand new version (and keeping/selling the old license as well). I think many will choose to sit on old versions and wait for several years before a brand new purchase.

gristle
11-17-2011, 05:19 PM
You mean "it's kinda how NewTek works".

There are companies that will provide fixes to previous versions of their software. I know, I happened to work for one.

Haha, even PTC releases new cuts of older versions of ProE/Creo with fixes.

Go Newtek.

ShadowMystic
11-17-2011, 05:40 PM
I think Photoshop is one piece of software I can afford to miss two, three or even four full upgrades on and not really miss anything. I think they're probably shooting themselves in the foot doing this, in today's climate. At the moment an agency might skip a couple of upgrades and jump to the latest, but if they're forced to pay every year for the latest version, then they'll either do that and pay every year - expensive, or work out how many years they need to keep the old version until it's worth upgrading the package for a brand new version (and keeping/selling the old license as well). I think many will choose to sit on old versions and wait for several years before a brand new purchase.

I think this is how my college works.

BigHache
11-17-2011, 08:34 PM
Adobe's upgrade policy changes looks to be suite wide, not just confined to PS. There's banter that Adobe is looking more for subscription-based licensing rather than permanent licensing, which doesn't work for me. I think it's a bad move but hey, it's their company.

LW_Will
11-17-2011, 08:40 PM
It could be worse. They could be Adobe ;)
http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/16/adobe-will-only-offer-photoshop-cs6-upgrade-price-to-cs5-owners/

Ah... the Autodesk Upgrade path. A slow death march into +$1000/year.

Two things going for Newtek, 1) It is slight cheaper and 2) there is real honest to gwod reason to get the upgrade. Actual things under the hood that'll get you better work coming out of your program.

xxiii
11-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Adobe does it AGAIN!

They never seem to be able to maintain the same upgrade policy twice, which is really annoying.

At least they're not Microsoft.

customer: how much is Visio 2010?
MS: $600.00
customer: how much for owners of the immediately previous version?
MS: $600.00

Which is why I'm still on Visio 2007, even though I'd set aside money for 2010, until that happened.

Matt
11-17-2011, 11:21 PM
You mean "it's kinda how NewTek works".

There are companies that will provide fixes to previous versions of their software. I know, I happened to work for one.

Maybe in other sectors, but in 3D, I've rarely (never) heard of companies making fixes for versions below the latest release.

But where do you stop? Seriously, do we go back and fix stuff in 9? 8? 7?

LW doesn't have hundreds of engineers at their disposal to dispatch teams to various point releases, we have to be focussed on the current product release.

I know that sounds a little harsh and dismissive, but it's just the reality, and I'm being honest here.

achilles
11-18-2011, 12:46 AM
Maybe in other sectors, but in 3D, I've rarely (never) heard of companies making fixes for versions below the latest release.
But where do you stop? Seriously, do we go back and fix stuff in 9? 8? 7?
LW doesn't have hundreds of engineers at their disposal to dispatch teams to various point releases, we have to be focussed on the current product release.
I know that sounds a little harsh and dismissive, but it's just the reality, and I'm being honest here.

So you're saying that if a product, for which I payed, isn't fully functional I have to buy a newest version and abandon the old one. I understand that is impossible to release a perfect soft, but i think that customers buying a new version has to pay for new functions and not to resolve the problems of the previous. There are software houses that after released new version continue to support the previous one, or, like 3DCoat, continue to develope point releases until a major new release for free.
I know every soft house has its commercial politics and, for me, the new direction taken by NT isn't the best.

quantizer
11-18-2011, 08:01 AM
I think this is not a problem for the newtek Software Engineer but the marketing people, it's not only the quality of product that matter in the market but also how they marketing the product.

For example as iam also a programmer, the delphi product line whose come originally from borland and then be continued with Embarcadero, their highest suite of programming tools called Embarcadero Rad Studio XE2 which normally cost 3000 - 4000$, there is a good intention from their behalf to reduce use of their pirated product in my country and re-popularized delphi back in the heart of programmers,

they offer that product for only 200$ (limited for 1000 license), that's rights 200 bucks ladies and gentleman, no you are not mistakenly read it, not only this is good marketing but also a possible 'free' (cheap) viral market, if let say they just straight ahead make and publish a tv advertisement in my country it would cost them 200,000 $ / 15 seconds (also depends on the time),

if let's say 1 not enough then let's say 10 times for 1 year/month, that's mean 2 M $, not really cost effective as they currently doesn't have main branch here to get the empirical statistic data to reach the decision whether to advertise or not.

I am here talking about the asian market in general, as the common stereotyping about most 'pirate' comes from here, my lightwave 10.1 only 1 months and slightly over few days (11 days) from their free upgrade of v11 ( 30 days threshold ) , now after back and forth between newtek europe and us finally i've get a status quo about whether i've get free upgrade or not but the only thing i hope from asian like me is the welcome and tolerance or if there is even smallest gratitude to have intention using legitimate license, sure for 5 minutes i could get non-version of it but as FlashFXP developer said there is warm and fuzzy feeling when you really buy it and use it :D, in short i want my free cookies! :bowdown:.

In addition, if we take example from game development sector, it was comes down with full of big studio with their multi-thousand and multi-million dollar game engine & sdk, in between this 'rich' market and 'indie' market there was no balance, until unity comes around and 'democratize' the game engine market, so unity now comes in the 'in-between' (medium) market, the problem with 3D modelling tools and vice versa the 'in-between' market there is no one really filling the gap in it, lightwave sure but they should be comes with better plan for this.

dsol
11-18-2011, 09:04 AM
I know that sounds a little harsh and dismissive, but it's just the reality, and I'm being honest here.

I appreciate the honesty. One of the best things about Lightwave is the level of candour and interaction the devs have with their users.

If you were being a little bit more political, you could have said something vague like "We hope to bring some stability fixes we're implementing in 11 to 10, where it's practical. This may not be technically possible for some features however as there's some significant internal changes taking place in the Lightwave application"

LW11 is great. And most importantly, the new features are USABLE. They're not hacked-together glitchy messes as any solution based on LW10+Core Standalone would probably have been.

Matt
11-18-2011, 09:52 AM
So you're saying that if a product, for which I payed, isn't fully functional I have to buy a newest version and abandon the old one ...

As you mentioned, no software is 100% free of issues, and to make a program 100% bug free could take a long time, at some point you need to move on, there are other factors, but honestly, we are where we are, some will disagree with that, and that's fine, but we're on 11, and there is enough work to do on that without branching off and doing stuff on 10.1 too.


If you were being a little bit more political, you could have said something vague like "We hope to bring some stability fixes we're implementing in 11 to 10, where it's practical.

Hehe, but that would be incorrect and we'd then get slammed for not doing so! As politically incorrect as I am, I'm firmly in the camp of, users are smart, especially LightWave users, they see through smoke-screens and BS, best be honest and tell it like it is, they'll appreciate it in the long run.

gclayton
11-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Maybe in other sectors, but in 3D, I've rarely (never) heard of companies making fixes for versions below the latest release.

But where do you stop? Seriously, do we go back and fix stuff in 9? 8? 7?

LW doesn't have hundreds of engineers at their disposal to dispatch teams to various point releases, we have to be focussed on the current product release.

I know that sounds a little harsh and dismissive, but it's just the reality, and I'm being honest here.

Matt, I understand that NewTek is not a large company with unlimited resources and I was only asking about fixes for LW 10.1.

No, a company cannot go back and provide fixes for every previous release that may still be in use but to provide some fixes for the latest RELEASED product while developing the next release is not unheard of.

We should NOT have to BUY the next release in order to get some fixes and to get the improvements to the SDK that should have been in the LW 10.1 release.

Is the same thing going to happen with LW 11? By this I mean, is NewTek going to throw a quick LW 11 release out and then work the rest of the cycle on developing LW 12 and forget about fixes to LW 11. I'm sure there will be needed fixes in LW 11.

Chuck
11-18-2011, 11:09 AM
You mean "it's kinda how NewTek works".

There are companies that will provide fixes to previous versions of their software. I know, I happened to work for one.

Most software developers will do some amount of maintenance on their current edition up to some amount of time before the next ordinal release, and then no more on the previous edition. This is the paradigm NewTek generally follows. There have been two exceptions along the way where we invested a small amount of time on 7.5 after 8.0 released, and a huge amount of time and effort on 9.6.1 after development were already in a very high-pressure situation on the next ordinal, which was to include improvements to Layout and Modeler and also an entirely new application with a new architecture.

The lessons learned from those two exercises basically confirm that maintaining the paradigm is the best course for our engineering to follow. So, we will not be working on and releasing maintenance updates for older versions once we have passed a certain point in our work toward a new ordinal, nor after the release of the new ordinal. Thus, we worked on a 10.1 update up to a certain point after the 10.0 release and while in progress toward 11.0. Then we released 10.1 with a heavy battery of fixes and some additional features and feature enhancements, and concentrated entirely on the forthcoming ordinal.

erikals
11-18-2011, 11:14 AM
Maybe in other sectors, but in 3D, I've rarely (never) heard of companies making fixes for versions below the latest release.

actually NT did this not too long ago.

that said, bugs in 3D apps wil always exist without getting fixed.
just look at Max, Maya, xSI... this is common practice.
(edit: i see Chuck just now said something somewhat similar)
expecting something else is delusional, that's just how it is.


it's better to remind NT about the lacks to fix in future LW versions.
(like i did with FiberFX, CC, Dynamics and Hypervoxels blending)

so try to make a case out of it for a future LW release, instead of circling around an old version of LW.

Wade
11-18-2011, 11:18 AM
10 saw a 10.1 which fixed I would guess some issues with 10. 11 offers some really new and different things perhaps fixes that just can't be made to 10.1.

We have yet to see the real or final 11 and perhaps there will be a 11.1 six months after the 11 release with fixes for some of the 11 bugs that are sure to manifest at some point and time. As for Adobe well I think since I am at CS 3 I'll wait for CS6 and buy a new suite and keep the old. Now when I bought into CS it was the master collection and had everything but they now don't include all the products and not in most robust form factor.

NT with LW has and has had a good and friendly upgrade policy - Thanks NT.


Wade

Chuck
11-18-2011, 11:21 AM
Matt, I understand that NewTek is not a large company with unlimited resources and I was only asking about fixes for LW 10.1.

No, a company cannot go back and provide fixes for every previous release that may still be in use but to provide some fixes for the latest RELEASED product while developing the next release is not unheard of.

We should NOT have to BUY the next release in order to get some fixes and to get the improvements to the SDK that should have been in the LW 10.1 release.

Is the same thing going to happen with LW 11? By this I mean, is NewTek going to throw a quick LW 11 release out and then work the rest of the cycle on developing LW 12 and forget about fixes to LW 11. I'm sure there will be needed fixes in LW 11.

Some companies do not provide any fixes for free at all - if you want them, you purchase a service contract or maintenance contract annually for the product.

Also, v10.1 is a maintenance release on 10.0. You suggest that if we follow the "same pattern" for 11.0 there would be no maintenance fix, but 10.1 and 11.0 is not the apple-to-apple comparison for a pattern in this regard, 10.0 and 11.0 would be. And we provided extensive maintenance for 10.0 in the form of 10.1.

DBMiller
11-18-2011, 11:46 AM
The software we use at work (we rent out equipment) comes with a $2000+ service plan per year or no updates, no service calls, no nothing. And that is for software that is basically what could be done on paper, not something that could actually make money, like LightWave.
So, despite my previous complaints about having to pay for some things in 11 that were already in Core, NewTek has been really generous with their pricing! After all, I upgraded from 8.5 to 9.6 to 10.1 for only one payment! Looking at it that way the LW11 price is not too bad.
DBMiller

quantizer
11-18-2011, 12:30 PM
The software we use at work (we rent out equipment) comes with a $2000+ service plan per year or no updates, no service calls, no nothing. And that is for software that is basically what could be done on paper, not something that could actually make money, like LightWave.
So, despite my previous complaints about having to pay for some things in 11 that were already in Core, NewTek has been really generous with their pricing! After all, I upgraded from 8.5 to 9.6 to 10.1 for only one payment! Looking at it that way the LW11 price is not too bad.
DBMiller

You might be talking for enterprise point of view and a site licensing software, sure every software developer house has it's own licensing politics but i think sometime there is always a human factor to make an exception decision for several unique issues, the different spectrum of pricing for salary, daily life, and goods within my place might not be as heaven as you guys have, afaik for example a manager in here is within the range salary of 270$ - 500$ a month that's mostly already included various benefits, that's a manager, as for my case i am only make half as much as lightwave only part time job and a hobby for me. So 300 - 700$ is big money from my pov.

This spectrum of differences might be good for most newtek customers as it matches to most of their conditions, as my condition of license only exceeding 11 days beyond the 30 days limit, what i am asking to them is the understanding, imho it's very rare for a company to release a new version products at the end of the year, so i was straight buy it, if i knew the newtek release timeline of course i will just wait for the next month to buy it.

As the final judgement for my issues hasn't reach a 'verdict' yet from newtek, i might be become rage too soon, there is no intention from myself to discredit newtek in anyway, i just want to express my point of view from the minority ligtwave user based on my location, if there is any hurt or anything i apologize.