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View Full Version : Is Lightwave 11 upgrade price too much?



motivalex
11-14-2011, 01:20 PM
The upgrade price from a previous version to LW 9.x was just 395. Now, if I choose to upgrade which I am considering, it has nearly doubled to 695 dollars. If for that price they are going to release some point releases including a significant 11.5, then maybe not so bad. Just being cautious since only a .1 release for 10.

Newtek did need to increase the upgrade price as it remained static for a long time and business costs have gone up over the past years. However, most people budgets are being squeezed and looking to make sure to get best value for money. Or maybe 695 dollars is reasonable and I have just been spoilt before??? Maybe Newtek can carefully think about their pricing before the final release.

beverins
11-14-2011, 01:36 PM
I think its fair pricing if you look at this industry as a whole - Adobe / Autodesk / E-On Software / Maxon, etc. They've all done this sort of thing, and for some they continue to do it. And while its on a different monetary scale ($1 - $20 instead of hundreds of dollars), you can see this sort of thing happen on the iOS App Store - while upgrades for any particular app you buy are always free, what people do is to release a "version 2"

juice
11-14-2011, 01:46 PM
I was thinking the same, I think this update was coming a bit to fast, there is a big lack of documentation, and as the most of us know Newtek from the past, a new update has nothing to mean if the branding is Newtek!!

BUT, I can say, I have already found my arguments, why the 11 is worth the money. Sure everybody have different needs...

I just figured out how to make a pointcloudpass :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmN__vhHpPk

lardbros
11-14-2011, 01:48 PM
I bought in early each time, and you do reap the benefits for doing so... BUT having said that, I still don't think $695 is too much. If I'm honest, my first job using a new version would pay for the upgrade costs. This couldn't be said if I was using 3ds max at home!

Plus, LW11 is quite a substantial update... a no brainer for me! :D

biliousfrog
11-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I think it's a bit much but, as has been pointed out, it's still cheaper than if you'd bought LW10 then LW11 upgrade.

monovich
11-14-2011, 03:04 PM
I don't think its too much for commercial work. Perhaps hobbyists would disagree.

Darth Mole
11-14-2011, 03:20 PM
I'm a hobbyist, but this release (assuming it delivers everything promised) goes some way to removing the need for C4D and modo for things like dynamics. The instancing is great and I like the way they're continuing to streamline the app. Keep going on that path and I'll be happy...

It's pricey, but look at the upgrades elsewhere. Autodesk once asked nearly as much money for a Mudbox upgrade as it cost for a full seat of ZBrush. I no longer use Mudbox.

I am a long-time LW user, through thick and thin, and I'm happy to support development if it continues on this path.

SBowie
11-14-2011, 03:24 PM
...there is a big lack of documentationJust to touch on this point, it's my impression that improved documentation is one of the focal points of 11 - it just might not be visible yet at the pre-release stage.

UnCommonGrafx
11-14-2011, 03:25 PM
No.
As a paid app, the upgrade costs for those who have stuck around makes having stuck around worth it.
For those who haven't and the cost is higher, I would say it's purely a question of subjectivity; ya know, like a fart or an opinion: everyone has one and you generally think yours is better than another's.

I think your answer for you is the best you will get.

Darth Mole
11-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Put it this way: to add dynamics to modo costs $199 (and recoil is crap), to add fracturing to C4D costs $55 (Nitroblast), to add instancing to LW costs $299 (with HD Instance), to add flocking you'd need to find an old copy of Dynamic Realities' Particle Storm (which coast about $500 and never worked cos I was one of the suckers that bought it). Now I'm already down over $1,000 and that's not counting the other stuff - so if you can get LW 11 at the cheap upgrade price, I'd say it was pretty decent value!

antsj
11-14-2011, 03:59 PM
In the current economy money is not a luxury and budgeting is tight.

Each person I think needs to decide what is a risky ROI (Return on Investment) and ones that are not. I see investment in LW 10 and 11 as bringing tools to LW that were missing and would not appear otherwise.

Other programs on the average I have found to be more costly to remain current with these programs. Adobe, Cinema 4D, SoftImage (Autodesk prodects in general) have had releases almost every 12-18 months. LW has had 2 were others have had 3-4 to 4 or more.

There are the outliers like Z Brush 4 and 3 D Coat. But LW continues to cost less to keep up than others and I am more hopeful with LW 11 video The features shown in the video are looking really kewl to start using now and not in some future release.

Great job to Rob, Chuck and New Tek team.

aj

Dexter2999
11-14-2011, 04:01 PM
For some perspective, there are people who spend $800 a month for a parking space in New York.

That's almost $10,000 a year...for a parking space.

How reasonable does a software upgrade seem now?

Seriously, if you are making money with LW it isn't too much. If you are just playing with it at home for a hobby, well, that can be a grey area. People spend more than that a year for hobbies like golf or fishing. It just comes down to how much disposable income you have and can you afford to treat yourself or not.

LW_Will
11-14-2011, 04:34 PM
You know, that's what will be in the future. Release of new version in January, a 'dot' release in summer, then a new version in January.

This process is slow. It takes time for things to work out. But, I have faith that Rob, Jamie and the rest of the crew will not just throw a new thing or plugin into the mix. Everything has a workflow. That is so huge!

While my pocket book is hurting from the concept, I will be saving my pennies for LW 12...

hrgiger
11-14-2011, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the price of LightWave go up eventually, but I think its pretty bad timing now. Right off the heels of the CORE debacle and also at a time when updates are coming faster and with less features and structural changes then previous updates. I think $100 increase for LW11 would have been reasonable.

Dexter2999
11-14-2011, 05:04 PM
You know, that's what will be in the future. Release of new version in January, a 'dot' release in summer, then a new version in January.

I just hope that an annual influx of cash to the company means they can keep enough developers on staff to continue the rate of progression/improvement. Which would in turn mean those annual releases are substantial enough to warrant the expense.

MentalFish
11-15-2011, 12:24 AM
LightWave 11 is great, and the price is fine. I do believe NewTek would reach a larger audience though by "doing an Apple", by lowering the price to a mass market level and ditching or emulate the dongle. Also getting it on the OSX App Store and the rumored Windows App Store would be neato. Full version 500$ upgrade 100$? If not, the current deal is fine, especially if one would make money from using the new features in LW 11.

Edit: hmmm, my avatar is "noisy". Should I change it back to just the fishy? And I guess I should change my subtitle to Python minion... bye bye LScript, we had a good run together...

50one
11-15-2011, 12:41 AM
Yip, you should change it to Python minion, myself can't wait to put my hands on the python for LW, as I've got more skills in Python (and still learning) than Lscript, so it will be fun:D.

App store?hmmm, it all depends how do you want other people/professionals to perceive your business, I wouldn't sell LW in any store, it's not an angry birds lol.

gristle
11-15-2011, 12:52 AM
I guess whether the price is too steep depends on what you use LW for. I use it for product and transport interior viz, so the latest step with 11 is not very enticing. I don't need fracturing and the other stuff (yet) but would love a decent spline deformer that runs on Win64, cough cough.

The instancing and buffers look good, but I use Kray or fPrime for rendering. My next upgrade looks to be Kray 3 if and when it comes out.

Netvudu
11-15-2011, 12:59 AM
Definitely NOT expensive. A way to put it (that has already been mentioned) is to check how much it would cost the same feature set through competing products. Anything else but Blender is simply much more expensive, and then again Blender is just starting to have a decent rendering engine, which we already have long ago.
Bottom line, CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP. Definitely NOT expensive, and a great investment.

OnlineRender
11-15-2011, 01:44 AM
what is the price of LW11 for a new user "when its gold", ie no upgrade no LW9x or 10x

tbh I think its a tad bit expensive for what you are getting its totally worth it , but if your skint like me its way to much.. I still think EDlics should be made cheaper or free to official schools and colleges

colkai
11-15-2011, 03:27 AM
Personally, it's moved LW out of my pay grade as a hobbyist.
IF the upgrade had features I could use and justify, then I could convince myself $395 was worth it.
As I do not make any money whatsoever from it, well, $695 is just too much for me, even moreso at the moment as times are very tough. At $695 every 6 to 12 months, I could amass a huge collection of guitars is short order, (not that the wife would let me :p ).

But ya, LW upgrades are dead to me at this price, but if you make money doing 3D, you've probably got this sort of money floating round as spare change and can easily write it off against expenses and projects, so then I guess the answer is any upgrade price is affordable.

I'm just very grateful that the likes of Blender exists for me to move to, with Python, fluids, particles, bullet physics, NLE etc. A LONG way from being forced to use Povray or a free copy of TrueSpace 2.0 in the past! :D ;)

archijam
11-15-2011, 04:29 AM
Entirely worth it from what I have seen. Time to check the local prices for Sony Move etc .. THEN it will start getting expensive ;) ..

Emmanuel
11-15-2011, 04:38 AM
99 bucks as a bundle with camera and games.Not really expensive.
Now where is Kinect support to map kinect motions to a custom rig in LW :D ?

archijam
11-15-2011, 05:01 AM
True .. even cheaper!

http://www.microspot.ch/microspot/product/Spielsteuerung/0000439331/Playstation_Move_Starter_Pack_(Version_DFI)_/detail.jsf

Curiouser and curiouser ...

SBowie
11-15-2011, 05:23 AM
I was a hobbyist when I paid $2500 for LW 3.5 back in 1994. That's the equivalent of $3,800 in 2011 dollars. Prices have gone down quite a bit.

lardbros
11-15-2011, 05:43 AM
I started as a hobbyist too... then decided to buy LightWave and scout around for random work... a job or two more than pays for it...

I have got my boss to buy me a copy (will have to beg them to upgrade it though... they still laugh at me unfortunately)... but I still use LW at home for my own projects when I get time... and the one freelance project I've had time to do this year has paid for the upgrade for two years!

colkai
11-15-2011, 05:53 AM
I was a hobbyist when I paid $2500 for LW 3.5 back in 1994. That's the equivalent of $3,800 in 2011 dollars. Prices have gone down quite a bit.

Oh no doubt, alas, my wages have also taken a severe tumble lately.
Even so, I am not sure I could justify that amount of money, I can't even justify it for a new guitar for at least 2 years, assuming I am still employed then. I'd get far more use out of a guitar than LW so alas, yep, too much for me.

It's always going to be an individual choice as to if something is "too much", what is too much for me now, might not have been a couple of years ago and may not be in a couple of years time. Conversely, it may be even more difficult to justify.

I have a simple saying I apply to everything.
All things have a price, the question you have to ask is, am I willing to pay it?
I ain't just talking about purchases there either. ;)

lardbros
11-15-2011, 05:58 AM
Dead right there Colkai... hope you stick around these parts though, you don't need the latest and greatest version to pull off some cool work! :D

SBowie
11-15-2011, 06:17 AM
Oh no doubt, alas, my wages have also taken a severe tumble lately.Sure. I know you're into Blender, now, but you can always skip an upgrade or two and come back when things look better or when you see a promo price for some later release.

djwaterman
11-15-2011, 07:03 AM
It does feel steep for me, I bought LW 10.1 in September and now I'll be shelling out about half that price again to upgrade, not being a Core member or anything I had no idea a new Lightwave was about to be released. But it looks worth the price. I'm impressed with things like better integration into Maya pipelines, the print media thing, that philosophy of making it work in production. It might be that we users have to catch up to where LW is taking us, where as it felt the other way around up till now.

Afalk
11-15-2011, 07:06 AM
IMO, no its not, and not even remotely.

Emmanuel
11-15-2011, 07:20 AM
I was a hobbyist when I paid $2500 for LW 3.5 back in 1994. That's the equivalent of $3,800 in 2011 dollars. Prices have gone down quite a bit.

Hehe, I do remember when NT used Babylon 5 shots for their advertising in Amiga magazine, and price back then was like 5000.- DM, which is today 2500.- Euros :D
Add that to the Blizzard 1260 turboboard (16 Meg RAM, 800.- Euros) and a decent graphicscard (Cybervision or Picasso) and were at almost 5000.- Euros.
Hey, that buys You merely a Mac workstation !
But already back then LW has MetaNurbs, which IIRC only Imagine or Caligari Truespace could cope with, barely.

Boris Goreta
11-15-2011, 07:57 AM
LW 11 is great and upgrade price is waaaay too cheap if you use it professionally.

motivalex
11-15-2011, 08:05 AM
A good balance of views here. I suppose for me, it is quite a jump from what I used to pay for previous Lightwave upgrades. I think hobbiests like Colkai are a group of customers that Newtek may lose with the higher pricing. Though Blender these days looks a solid app as a alternative for hobbiests and capable for professional work too.

The instancing, bullet dynamics and new render buffers are features in Lightwave 11 that I would use in production. Our Cinema 4D guy may not have as much to laugh at Lightwave anymore when it comes to motion graphics work. hehe.

Look forward to trying the demo and seeing if 695 would be well spent. Maybe Newtek can make it 595 instead. :D

Netvudu
11-15-2011, 08:23 AM
Personally, I would like Newtek to think on a higher price for the package. As it is, itīs too cheap and this misleads many people into thinking itīs not capable. It should be more expensive than it is now.
This could also derive into bigger development, even if the current pace after Rob took the ship is nothing short of terrific.

Sanchon
11-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Finally I managed to purchase LW11 and I am pleased with the improvements compared to the price. The price is worth it, hoping to further rapid improvement.

Emmanuel
11-15-2011, 08:38 AM
"Personally, I would like Newtek to think on a higher price for the package. As it is, itīs too cheap and this misleads many people into thinking itīs not capable. It should be more expensive than it is now.
This could also derive into bigger development, even if the current pace after Rob took the ship is nothing short of terrific."

Can someone please ban this guy from the forums :D

Emmanuel
11-15-2011, 08:42 AM
Finally I managed to purchase LW11 and I am pleased with the improvements compared to the price. The price is worth it, hoping to further rapid improvement.

Impressive website and gallery you got there, is it all LW ?

Sanchon
11-15-2011, 08:48 AM
Impressive website and gallery you got there, is it all LW ?

Thank you. Yes, all work has been done in Lightwave, soon update with those made in 2011.

colkai
11-15-2011, 10:03 AM
Sure. I know you're into Blender, now, but you can always skip an upgrade or two and come back when things look better or when you see a promo price for some later release.

That was my plan, I'm seeing nothing in LW11 to entice me personally, thus my choice to upgrade to LWCAD4 to "upgrade" my LW9.6

Simple truth is, even if LW12 provides what I want, right now, I'm not convinced I'm going to be in a position to upgrade. Times is worrying, curse this global downturn! :cry:

Snosrap
11-15-2011, 10:43 AM
---$395 every 3 years may have been a little low, but $695 every year is too high. Maybe now we'll get Inspire 2.0 :D

djwaterman
11-15-2011, 10:51 AM
Anyway, at at least LW is moving again and we have something to talk about.

sandman300
11-15-2011, 01:02 PM
I really want to get the upgrade. And I'm a charter member, but unfortunately, with Christmas just around the corner, I feel selfish to even think about spending $395. I was already trying to find ways to get some extra dough for Christmas presents for the kids. Sorry, Newtek but the kids come first. Maybe after Christmas when the dust settles, if I can get the money.

OnlineRender
11-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I really want to get the upgrade. And I'm a charter member, but unfortunately, with Christmas just around the corner, I feel selfish to even think about spending $395. I was already trying to find ways to get some extra dough for Christmas presents for the kids. Sorry, Newtek but the kids come first. Maybe after Christmas when the dust settles, if I can get the money.

tell your kids Daddy wants a new toy! and due to the economy being unstable Santa has went into administration.

crpcory
11-15-2011, 09:25 PM
I guess the price increase makes sense with the direction they seem to be heading although, even as a professional, I certainly wouldn't mind it being a little less. Lightwave was honestly heading in a pretty jenky direction but they seem to really be getting their act together finally.

I wish they'd go the apple route but apple is crazy rich and subsidizes it's software cost with hardware so, that ain't happening I'm sure. My client's can't always pull big budgets so everything dollar helps but since I skipped 10 I think I'll pull for 11.

achilles
11-16-2011, 03:22 AM
For me is too high. I don't know if it is the right price, but I, as an hobbyst, can't upgrade for 495$. At this point, for me, would be better that NT consider the possibility to realease a limited (on animation resolution o similar) version of LW, like Houdini Apprentice HD. If it isn't possible, I for now stop at 10.1.

kadri
11-16-2011, 08:32 AM
Depends on what you do , how much income you have, how you rate it etc. It is too much subjective .

Blenders price is : $ 0 It was to high to me. I bought Lightwave instead . If someone paid me to use Blender i would use it :)

The price is not too much in general maybe. But i can not afford to upgrade it yearly. A teachers monthly salary is nearly only 1000 $ here :(

monovich
11-16-2011, 09:16 AM
For me is too high. I don't know if it is the right price, but I, as an hobbyst, can't upgrade for 495$. At this point, for me, would be better that NT consider the possibility to realease a limited (on animation resolution o similar) version of LW, like Houdini Apprentice HD. If it isn't possible, I for now stop at 10.1.

how would you limit third party renderers?

achilles
11-17-2011, 04:45 AM
how would you limit third party renderers?

I don't know, I'm not a programmer, but there are softwares that do that.
Bye

archijam
11-17-2011, 02:27 PM
695 looks like a lot on paper, but someone upgrading now for that price from 9.6 is still paying less than I did since as an early core member. All good.

I also feel obliged to upgrade, personally, because I have hassled for years for native instancing .. Time to put my money where my mouth is (was). ;)

Nt have always not overly penalised for those skipping versions. This is a good thing for hobbyists etc., imo. The business alternatives would be subscription, or cheaper updates that you cant skip.. And bigger penalties if you do... IMO

achrystie
11-17-2011, 02:44 PM
For some perspective, there are people who spend $800 a month for a parking space in New York.

That's almost $10,000 a year...for a parking space.

How reasonable does a software upgrade seem now?

Seriously, if you are making money with LW it isn't too much. If you are just playing with it at home for a hobby, well, that can be a grey area. People spend more than that a year for hobbies like golf or fishing. It just comes down to how much disposable income you have and can you afford to treat yourself or not.

Parking spaces have an extremely limited supply. Software has a theoretically infinite supply, although I see your point, it's not the best example. :D

Pavlov
11-17-2011, 02:54 PM
Maybe Newtek can carefully think about their pricing before the final release.

Shor answer: no.
You pay what you get. It's a decade we hope to see a more pro LW, and now it's coming at its price... i highly welcome it !

Paolo

achrystie
11-17-2011, 02:56 PM
$695 feels like a lot to me because it's more than I paid for the software originally. That said, it's "in the ball park" for my personal budget, it's just on the high end.
However, it's not the price that is keeping me away, it's the functionality offered at that price, largely not applying to my needs and not seeming like much given all the time that went buy to "perfect the tech" during the CORE years.
I'll consider an upgrade and a switch back when they streamline the whole workflow by eliminating modeler and/or reworking the whole modeler to layout process, and add some sort of nice autorigger that has a "light" skeleton for the actual deformations (a control rig with a separate deformation rig that binds nicely and exports separately), with good easy to create weight maps, that export very cleanly.
However.
What I'd really like to see is some software actually innovate the animation process to be more like hand drawn amimation. Something where I can draw some expressive volumes or stick figure poses and have the model conform to that. Seems doable to me, I just don't have the time at the moment to experiment developing it, and if I worked on it, I'd probably have to mess around with the concept in the "free program that shall not be named", rather than LW.

MentalFish
11-17-2011, 03:03 PM
To put some perspective on things:

3DS Max and Maya 2011->2012 upgrades are $1,745 each

Softimage 2011->2012 upgrade is $1,495

A yearly Houdini upgrade (subscription) plan:
Houdini Escape Workstation $800
Houdini Master Workstation $2,495

Cinema4D R12->R13 ranges from $349 to $995 depending on what C4D package you have.

With the amount of new goodies that is in LW11, the current pricing is rather good and NewTek is decluttering their brand and communication by the "minute" (at least month by month), so all is pointing in the right direction. I blame Matt Gorner for a lot of that de-cluttering taking place, goooooo Matt!... you stupid brit taking my dream job... grrr... :D:thumbsup:

When LightWave have been fully de-cored, pricing and direction should be back on track.

When I suggest that LW could be de-dongled, priced at $500 and put in both the Mac App Store and a potential Windows App Store, it is because I think NewTek would make a killing by doing so. I'd much rather have 100,000 customers pay me $500 than having 1,000 customers pay me $5,000 :thumbsup:

stiff paper
11-17-2011, 04:48 PM
the "free program that shall not be named", rather than LW.
Blender! Blender! Blender!

Oh look. You can say "Blender" here and you won't be banned. What you can't do is encourage people to use it instead of LW here, just like you can't encourage people to use any of the other 3D suites instead of LightWave here. No shilling of competing products. This is the LightWave forum. It's such a simple concept: the... LightWave... forum.

For LightWave. About LightWave.


To put some perspective on things:
Indeed yes.

I'm sure this relatively small group of people will be much happier paying three to five times as much for their software if they decide to use any of the competing products out there. Particularly when you factor in that to get a render as nice as LW can produce means you have to invest in VRay too. That lot'll cost you... ooh... gosh... I can hardly even count.

Personally, I can't afford to upgrade to 11 right now. But when I can it'll be a no-brainer to an almost pathetic degree. It seems like some people out there need to reflect on the cost of LightWave and what you actually get for that money, as compared to the other options.

Perspective is a handy thing to have.

SBowie
11-17-2011, 05:14 PM
Blender! Blender! Blender!Banned, Banned, Banned.


What you can't do is encourage people to use it instead of LW here, just like you can't encourage people to use any of the other 3D suites instead of LightWave here.Oh, wait ... errrr, un-banned? :hey:

kopperdrake
11-17-2011, 05:16 PM
Banned, Banned, Banned.

Oh, wait ... errrr, un-banned? :hey:

Trigger happy ;)

lardbros
11-17-2011, 05:33 PM
HAhahahahaha! :D

Ernest
11-17-2011, 07:27 PM
Parking spaces have an extremely limited supply. Software has a theoretically infinite supply, although I see your point, it's not the best example. :D

But with software upgrades you are not buying software. You already bought the software. You are buying development time in the form of new features. And development time is definitely not infinite. It's usually limited to 22.5 hours per programmer per day.

But you can probably increase that with the right "tools".


Anyone else noticed how similar "Banned Banned Banned" sounds to the shooting onomatopoeia?

SBowie
11-17-2011, 07:31 PM
But you can probably increase that with the right "tools".Yep.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLX7MCMPDXV0xn6SifG-7J0pez50mZ65gEFdfV5Yd6B8dShj0jRQ

mav3rick
11-17-2011, 08:45 PM
if lw is your every day living.. it is cheap as hell... actually i dont even think about price regarding how much money it earn me over years. deservs every penny.. i am glad newtek took subscription route.

crpcory
11-17-2011, 09:15 PM
3DS Max and Maya 2011->2012 upgrades are $1,745 each

Softimage 2011->2012 upgrade is $1,495

A yearly Houdini upgrade (subscription) plan:
Houdini Escape Workstation $800
Houdini Master Workstation $2,495

Cinema4D R12->R13 ranges from $349 to $995 depending on what C4D package you have.

With the amount of new goodies that is in LW11, the current pricing is rather good...

I very much agree that LW gives you bang for you buck relative to what exists in the market and I've always appreciated that (it's also why Cinema4D would be my only other realistic option, but of I'd rather not switch :) ). But $700 is $700.

Although it's not a 'full 3D app', Zbrush, which I paid $500 many many years ago has never charged me for an upgarde (that's Zbrush 2 through Zbrush 4R2). I don't know how/why they aren't charging for it but I love it. I love not missing out on any new features.

I don't question LW's value but it's just hard to keep up with upgrade costs that are getting well over $500 (regardless of it's value). I don't want to skip versions but we'll see. I'm less concerned about the price than I was about the direction (or lack there of) LW seemed to be taking for a while but i think I'm getting LW11. This release makes me feel the best I've felt about LW in a long time (just hope my jobs have budgets that let me keep up with each release :) ).

Cutman
11-18-2011, 04:23 AM
Cinema4D R12->R13 ranges from $349 to $995 depending on what C4D package you have.

:

There's almost nobody that pays full price for upgrades from Maxon as a lot of people are on the service agreement which gives a huge discount.

But anyway, Newtek should be applauded for getting real with pricing. IMHO Newtek had been hurting themselves for years by not charging enough.

I always look at upgrades as a down payment on what's coming next. By paying that bit more than you've been used to means NT will have the funds to bring forward their plans much quicker. I don't think there's too many people who would disagree that NT needs to push on with LW development at pace. It's a contract though, they need to deliver.

It wouldn't be NT without a confusing upgrade policy though, two steps forward and one back.:rolleyes:

kadri
11-18-2011, 04:58 AM
... IMHO Newtek had been hurting themselves for years by not charging enough....


No they couldn't request the high price in those years . Or there would be much lesser Lightwavers now here with higher prices in the past.
That they are requesting it now is kind of a good sign that they are more confident in the state of Lightwave (or the future of).
It is a little to much for me. But good for Lightwave's future in general maybe as you said Cutman.

stiff paper
11-18-2011, 10:06 AM
Banned, Banned, Banned.

Finally, I am one of the kool kidz.

Oh, how I have waited for this day.

dnch
04-01-2012, 04:43 PM
as a core customer, i feel being ripped off, well i still use 9.6 + fprime, never even opened lw 10 box, so i dont even care about 11 i guess

SBowie
04-01-2012, 04:55 PM
Probably should have asked for a refund back when, in that case.

Snosrap
04-01-2012, 09:11 PM
as a core customer, i feel being ripped off, well i still use 9.6 + fprime, never even opened lw 10 box, so i dont even care about 11 i guess Your loss. LW10.1 is a good release and 11 even better.

RudySchneider
04-01-2012, 09:25 PM
Not that my comments mean anything, but...

I'm a hobbyist. I first bought LW8.5, and bought into Hardcore (sigh). And even though I've been unemployed for nearly 17 months(!) now, I purchased the upgrade to LW11! Why? Because it's WORTH it!

It never ceases to amaze me how much belly-aching, bit-ching, and moaning people can do!

UltraViolet
04-01-2012, 10:26 PM
Yep, personally I think it's too much ...

Bit too much for the app which, after all these years, still does not have decent SDS, UV unwrapping or caustics, but hey, as long that there are workarounds, third party plugins and bunch of happy users blinded by the new shiny features, who am I to demand anything ? :devil: :D

No, thanks, I'll pass, quite happy here with LW 10 :thumbsup:

dnch
04-02-2012, 03:12 AM
i feel ripped off because newtek adds some fancy features but the basic everyday things 3d artists needs stil does not work, like rendering depth pass

lino.grandi
04-02-2012, 03:26 AM
i feel ripped off because newtek adds some fancy features but the basic everyday things 3d artists needs stil does not work, like rendering depth pass

Could you please clarify this?

Depth pass works here. :stumped:

blondimage
04-02-2012, 06:20 AM
er.. possibly does for you Lino.

Sarford
04-02-2012, 07:57 AM
Not worth the upgrade in my opinion.
I'm a charter member so I got it for 395, which was sort of ok. The FBX tools are nice, render buffers are convenient but also painfully illustrate how incredible lacking LW is in the passes department.
It blows my mind that they deliberately leave things like CC's slow as hell, things like manipulating (adding, deleting etc) your mesh destroys your UV's, broken FFX which you still have to operate from within a crappy plug-in window...

If I had to pay 695 for an update I would pass. I might even pass the next time eventhough I only pay 395.
Then again, it is quite cool of NewTek that you can pass on as many updates as you want without a penalty (if you are a non-charter-member).
As I've said before, I had/have more faith in Jay Roth than I have in Rob to deliver a unified app, especially after LW 10 and 11, which still have nothing in that regard, and according to Chuck that still can be at least another five years off (makes one wonder how far Core would have been at that time).

Anyhow, I'm here till twelve comes around, let's see if then they have done something to keep me interested.

zarti
04-02-2012, 01:26 PM
Not worth the upgrade in my opinion.
I'm a charter member so I got it for 395, which was sort of ok. The FBX tools are nice, render buffers are convenient but also painfully illustrate how incredible lacking LW is in the passes department.
It blows my mind that they deliberately leave things like CC's slow as hell, things like manipulating (adding, deleting etc) your mesh destroys your UV's, broken FFX which you still have to operate from within a crappy plug-in window...

If I had to pay 695 for an update I would pass. I might even pass the next time eventhough I only pay 395.
Then again, it is quite cool of NewTek that you can pass on as many updates as you want without a penalty (if you are a non-charter-member).
As I've said before, I had/have more faith in Jay Roth than I have in Rob to deliver a unified app, especially after LW 10 and 11, which still have nothing in that regard, and according to Chuck that still can be at least another five years off (makes one wonder how far Core would have been at that time).

Anyhow, I'm here till twelve comes around, let's see if then they have done something to keep me interested.

exactly my thoughts ! esp the bolded segments .

nt totally underestimated the ' interest ' factor , suffocating the ' hope ' too .

the 11th doesnt smell yet that something is being unified , so ..




.cheers

Oedo 808
04-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Everyone has their own view, I must confess that I'm not entirely chuffed about LW10, that episode did push me to trying out Modo because felt that if the 10 cycle was a sign of things to come then even as a charter member it wouldn't be good value to stay with LW. Thankfully it seems that NT might be steadying a course that is more agreeable with me, but only LW11's cycle will bear that out. Although I am very interested in seeing the modelling aspects of LW developed more than other areas, I do get the feeling that people keep mourning Core as what it might have been rather than what it actually was, yet pragmatically a future version of LightWave stands a far greater chance of becoming what we hoped for when we saw Core than Core itself ever did. It was not up to par even well after its expected delivery estimate, and while it is frustrating to have experienced the freedom it promised, it was totally inadequate. Any suggestion that it was but a few tweaks away from what we all wanted to see would be fanciful at best.

Core couldn't go on indefinitely being the focus for NewTek, and developing two versions alongside each other would be thoroughly impractical. The work done with it is not lost and we will see, as has been stated, that work coming to the fore as LightWave's architecture is updated in a progressive, sustainable fashion that doesn't ignore the reality of the business product that LightWave is.

But if LightWave was being developed in a vacuum, then sure, I'd have gone forward with Core too.

lino.grandi
04-03-2012, 03:46 AM
er.. possibly does for you Lino.

If you or anybody else has any problem with Depth in LightWave, would be great to know it, so they can eventually be fixed.

"This doesn't work" is not helping much. ;)

lardbros
04-03-2012, 05:30 AM
If you or anybody else has any problem with Depth in LightWave, would be great to know it, so they can eventually be fixed.

"This doesn't work" is not helping much. ;)

Hang on!! There was a whole thread about this somehwere.... wait, let me try and find it....


I'm sure it was Greenlaw who started it...


Here we go...

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=122035&highlight=depth+pass

Thanks Lino!

Lightwolf
04-03-2012, 06:52 AM
Hang on!! There was a whole thread about this somehwere.... wait, let me try and find it....


I'm sure it was Greenlaw who started it...


Here we go...

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=122035&highlight=depth+pass
Apples and Oranges though... The depth buffer (not pass!) is perfectly fine as is. However, LW doesn't generate a coverage buffer (which is needed for other buffers as well by the way) - which helps solve some of the general, conceptual issues of buffers in many cases (vague, me? ;) ).
There's also a general problem of AS not looking in buffers to check if more samples are needed. The question being if that is actually desirable all the time.

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
04-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Although I am very interested in seeing the modelling aspects of LW developed more than other areas, I do get the feeling that people keep mourning Core as what it might have been rather than what it actually was, yet pragmatically a future version of LightWave stands a far greater chance of becoming what we hoped for when we saw Core than Core itself ever did. It was not up to par even well after its expected delivery estimate, and while it is frustrating to have experienced the freedom it promised, it was totally inadequate. Any suggestion that it was but a few tweaks away from what we all wanted to see would be fanciful at best.

I don't think its so much as mourning CORE as it is mourning a particular focus in direction. CORE at least reprsented a path that showed a unified application as its focus as well as creating a more modern architecture that could be developed further over the coming versions rather then 'rewritten' or fixed like current LW.

I dont' see a particular focus currently on making LightWave work better in of itself, I see the largest improvements come in the form of new features added on top of same LightWave, longstanding issues and all.

lino.grandi
04-03-2012, 11:59 AM
So, looks like our ZDepth buffer works as it should.

A Coverage Buffer would be very welcome.



Apples and Oranges though... The depth buffer (not pass!) is perfectly fine as is. However, LW doesn't generate a coverage buffer (which is needed for other buffers as well by the way) - which helps solve some of the general, conceptual issues of buffers in many cases (vague, me? ;) ).
There's also a general problem of AS not looking in buffers to check if more samples are needed. The question being if that is actually desirable all the time.

Cheers,
Mike

jwiede
04-03-2012, 09:23 PM
If you or anybody else has any problem with Depth in LightWave, would be great to know it, so they can eventually be fixed.

"This doesn't work" is not helping much. ;)
See Bookman's post cited in this thread. (http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=1229649&postcount=8) Only folks who can access the 11 prerel fora can read this, though.

The depth problems with AA PRMB and with transparency have been around for quite some time, but still, it is not working "as it should".

dnch
04-04-2012, 11:50 AM
so i installed lw 10 and .1 update and where is core or bullet dynamics?
http://tv.newtek.com/player.php?recordID=65

othervise it looks to me that 10.1 against lw 9.6 is lw+ fancier fprime... am i right? im sorry i dont really know what was going on in later months

lardbros
04-04-2012, 12:07 PM
Apples and Oranges though... The depth buffer (not pass!) is perfectly fine as is. However, LW doesn't generate a coverage buffer (which is needed for other buffers as well by the way) - which helps solve some of the general, conceptual issues of buffers in many cases (vague, me? ;) ).
There's also a general problem of AS not looking in buffers to check if more samples are needed. The question being if that is actually desirable all the time.

Cheers,
Mike

Well... Guess this is what I would like done, so posted the thread... Sorry for mixed up specifics. Would be great to get the coverage done though! :-)

Snosrap
04-04-2012, 12:22 PM
so i installed lw 10 and .1 update and where is core or bullet dynamics?
http://tv.newtek.com/player.php?recordID=65

othervise it looks to me that 10.1 against lw 9.6 is lw+ fancier fprime... am i right? im sorry i dont really know what was going on in later months

Core is cancelled. Core tech is showing up in 10, 11 and beyond.

Snosrap
04-04-2012, 12:25 PM
so i installed lw 10 and .1 update and where is core or bullet dynamics?
http://tv.newtek.com/player.php?recordID=65


Another prime example of the underlying performance prowess of Core! Come on NT lets see some of that in LW.

Hieron
04-04-2012, 06:23 PM
Apples and Oranges though... The depth buffer (not pass!) is perfectly fine as is.

Well I had some major issues with whatever was coming out of the compositing buffer image filter, whatever I tried. (instances showing up at 0 depth etc)

Using your Exrtrader gave a perfectly fine as expected buffer.

no clue.

Greenlaw
04-05-2012, 12:03 AM
Will people stop blaming me for everything! :p

Lightwolf
04-05-2012, 12:08 AM
Using your Exrtrader gave a perfectly fine as expected buffer.

no clue.
And yet it does nothing else (well, not much else) but just save what LW provides...

Cheers,
Mike

Hieron
04-05-2012, 01:19 PM
I know :| I had no idea, nor time so just happily took your Exrtrader reset the renderfarm back, plug new scene in and slam render and continue not sleeping and working :)
Got a bit of time now.. will test it..

Result: ofcourse now with time aplenty, it all works fine. exrtrader and compositing buffer export give the same result. Funny how these things go. Anyway, my DP instance placed instances (native rendered) showed up at 0 depth back then, they do fine now.. odd. Had some other problems with those instances and a decent amount of crashes (funniest was that loading a scene crashed *always*, but loading the same one from "recent scenes" worked fine... heh. That was all 32 bit btw as current DP Instance wasn't compiled to 64 bit then yet)

ps: would like LW to have a standard switch to stop producing files from Image Filters on F9's.. Like exrtrader does.

Chuck
04-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Will people stop blaming me for everything! :p

If it's any comfort to you, I always appreciate the relief I get for a time when folks are occupied with blaming you for something instead of me. ;)

Let me buy one for you! :beerchug:

Paul_Boland
04-05-2012, 06:33 PM
Core is cancelled. Core tech is showing up in 10, 11 and beyond.

Which CORE tech is in 10??? It all seems to be showing up in 11. Wish I had of known, I wouldn't have bought 10 and bought 11 instead.

DigitalSorcery8
04-05-2012, 07:14 PM
Which CORE tech is in 10??? It all seems to be showing up in 11. Wish I had of known, I wouldn't have bought 10 and bought 11 instead.

That's part of the ire. :cry:

Snosrap
04-05-2012, 09:09 PM
Which CORE tech is in 10??? It all seems to be showing up in 11. Wish I had of known, I wouldn't have bought 10 and bought 11 instead.

Well for 10 I think it was VPR and Linear Color Workspace. In 11 it's Instancing, Flocking and Bullet.

Paul_Boland
04-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Well for 10 I think it was VPR and Linear Color Workspace. In 11 it's Instancing, Flocking and Bullet.

I am NOT looking to start a debate on this whole issue again, but 10 was sold to use on those features, or Bullet at least. I'm still very sore over how this was all handled but as I said I'm not looking to start a debate on this again so I'll close here.

DigitalSorcery8
04-06-2012, 12:45 PM
I am NOT looking to start a debate on this whole issue again, but 10 was sold to use on those features, or Bullet at least. I'm still very sore over how this was all handled but as I said I'm not looking to start a debate on this again so I'll close here.

Actually I don't think Snosrap was TRYING to start another debate - he was just stating facts.

And I completely agree with you. LW10.1 was sub par after what we went through. But unfortunately there's nothing we can do about it. If you bought into CORE, they offered the refund. I think how they handled it was extremely, very and undoubtedly POOR - but again, we're at their mercy. I feel your pain, but unless NT decides to provide the original CORE customers with a special discount (which again, is HIGHLY doubtful) we're stuck with what we've got.

I don't like it - not one bit. I returned LW10 and lost all future upgrade pricing at $395. IMO that was not fair. But what can we do? Nothing. Well... we can stop buying LW - and that MAY still be an option for me. I don't know. You'll have to decide for yourself. I know quite a few have opted to skip upgrades unless something is incredibly wonderful in an upgrade. Regardless of the feature list of LW11, many of the new features are still not completely implemented - all seem to have caveats.

Good luck! We're going to need it! :)

Snosrap
04-06-2012, 12:47 PM
I am NOT looking to start a debate on this whole issue again, but 10 was sold to use on those features, or Bullet at least. I'm still very sore over how this was all handled but as I said I'm not looking to start a debate on this again so I'll close here.

Well back to the original question: Is LW11 upgrade price too much? It depends. :) For the company I work for - no. We have subscription service with AutoDesk/VAR for Inventor, so $395 for a few seats of a LW upgrade is cheap. I also upgraded my personal copy and if NT does indeed stick to a 12 month release cycle, that's still only $33 a month or roughly a dollar a day. That's not so bad for something I get that much enjoyment out of and cheaper than most people will spend on beer in a month. :D

cresshead
04-06-2012, 12:53 PM
too much for me right now,maybe when lw12 comes out i'll get it.

realgray
04-06-2012, 01:05 PM
Everyone keeps talking about the 395 price point for hardcore members. I don't think 395 is too much at all. If your in the 695 boat, then you have to consider the competition.

DigitalSorcery8
04-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Everyone keeps talking about the 395 price point for hardcore members. I don't think 395 is too much at all. If your in the 695 boat, then you have to consider the competition.

You don't quite understand. $395 is not a bad upgrade price - it's about what we've been paying for a LONG time. But LW10.1 was (IMO) not worth that upgrade price and then immediately thereafter we are expected to pay another $395 for 11. Skipping 10.1 and upgrading to 11 would save nearly $100. Just skip every upgrade. But unfortunately that's difficult since problems in each upgrade will more than likely not be fixed during its development cycle and you'll HAVE to buy the next upgrade for it to end up working as expected.

Ah well... what does it matter? It's not going to change anything. :(

realgray
04-06-2012, 02:03 PM
Actually I had to pay more than 395 for both 10 and 11 as I'm not a hardcore member. Customer service was quite aware of my frustration. All I'm saying is that LW 12 will have to be nothing short of amazing for me to upgrade again.

Paul_Boland
04-06-2012, 07:46 PM
Well back to the original question: Is LW11 upgrade price too much? It depends. :) For the company I work for - no. We have subscription service with AutoDesk/VAR for Inventor, so $395 for a few seats of a LW upgrade is cheap. I also upgraded my personal copy and if NT does indeed stick to a 12 month release cycle, that's still only $33 a month or roughly a dollar a day. That's not so bad for something I get that much enjoyment out of and cheaper than most people will spend on beer in a month. :D

Seven years unemployed, I've recently gone back to college at 100% expense to myself, I got no grant or financal aid because of the course I'm availing of. Result, I'm not going to avail of the Lightwave 11 upgrade for US$495 (as mine is) because I have zero free income to play with. My discounted upgrade price for the next five or whatever number version of Lightwave won't be open to me. So I bought Lightwave 10 based on a rich feature list which wasn't delivered, at least not unless I'm willing/able to pay for it again. And I'm not able to pay so my journey ends here...

DigitalSorcery8
04-06-2012, 08:16 PM
Seven years unemployed, I've recently gone back to college at 100% expense to myself, I got no grant or financal aid because of the course I'm availing of. Result, I'm not going to avail of the Lightwave 11 upgrade for US$495 (as mine is) because I have zero free income to play with. My discounted upgrade price for the next five or whatever number version of Lightwave won't be open to me. So I bought Lightwave 10 based on a rich feature list which wasn't delivered, at least not unless I'm willing/able to pay for it again. And I'm not able to pay so my journey ends here...

Seven years unemployed? I've been UNDERemployed for the past three years or so, but I couldn't survive being seven years unemployed. You really should contact Newtek customer service and try to return 10.x and stick with 9.6 - if you've got that. Then you can use that money now for expenses and wait til LW 12 or 13 and buy back in - if it's worth it at that time.

SBowie
04-07-2012, 11:59 AM
Paul, since you're enrolled in a course, you should look into student pricing for the duration.

aidenvfx
04-08-2012, 01:36 AM
The upgrade prices if fair. For any of the hardcore members it is a fantastic upgrade and a great price. Personally I think Pro software should cost money. I don't hold it against any company for charging what they charge. I went with LW because of price and have come back to LW after playing a bit with Houdini and finding out how easy and user friendly LW is compared to other software packages.

I made the decision to upgrade to LW 11 VS going over to Modo because I like the direction LW is headed with Rob in the lead and watching how behind the scenes they are working with artists, studios and filmmakers to test new features in production (Iron Sky)

Paul_Boland
04-08-2012, 02:13 PM
Paul, since you're enrolled in a course, you should look into student pricing for the duration.

Thanks. I started out with the student version of Lightwave 8 and upgraded the licence when I moved up to 10 so I don't really want to move back to a student version of 11.

I appreciate the feedback. I'm in a very bad situation financially. Hopefully the I.C.T. course I'm on will open up some doors for me. I won't be making the move up to Lightwave 11, and hence will lose any additional discounts for future upgrades, but I'm happy enough working in 10. I can't lie, I'm very sore over how 10 was sold to me, but I'm going to stick with what I have.

Thanks again, appreciate the feedback.

Carm3D
04-08-2012, 03:16 PM
I went from v9 to v11. It was absolutely worth the price.

DigitalSorcery8
04-08-2012, 04:26 PM
I went from v9 to v11. It was absolutely worth the price.

:agree: But not from 9.6 and then to 10.1 and THEN to 11. IMO not worth the cost, the wait or the features - in 10.1 that is. :)

bobakabob
04-08-2012, 05:29 PM
Core members got a rock solid LW 9.6 following countless bugfixes, then LW10 with VPR, transforming production work, and only had to pay a very reasonable $395 for LW 11 which is a quantum leap. Alternatives? Blender, totally free and Autodesk and Maxon which are most definitely not. Compared to the mid 90s when you had to remortgage your house to get into 3D it's really not a bad place to be. You pays your money -or not- and takes your choice. So why all the angst?

Carm3D
04-08-2012, 05:39 PM
No angst here.

bobakabob
04-08-2012, 05:54 PM
I went from v9 to v11. It was absolutely worth the price.

Agreed :)

DigitalSorcery8
04-08-2012, 08:45 PM
No angst here.


Agreed :)

Happy for you both! :dance:

Nice to see people expect everyone to conform to their values. :)

Carm3D
04-08-2012, 09:13 PM
If I didn't skip 10 I might have a different opinion.

DigitalSorcery8
04-08-2012, 10:30 PM
If I didn't skip 10 I might have a different opinion.

THAT.... is pretty much entirely my point! :jam:

bobakabob
04-09-2012, 01:36 PM
My point is, it's horses for courses. If LW isn't good enough there's always Blender or Maya. It's not compulsory to upgrade. Sure core was a disappointment but Newtek offered core members their money back as an alternative to 10. Some stayed some didn't. IMHO it was a good choice to stay, LW10 sped up production significantly. Just glad we're not in the 90s when software cost as much as a good car. Sadly I'm old enough to remember :)

ShadowMystic
04-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Just glad we're not in the 90s when software cost as much as a good car. Sadly I'm old enough to remember :)

I disagree. I could find a decent used car for less than Autodesk charges for most of its software.

bobakabob
04-09-2012, 04:27 PM
I disagree. I could find a decent used car for less than Autodesk charges for most of its software.

My last car cost as much as the last LW upgrade. But you wouldn't want to drive it :D

LW_Will
04-09-2012, 11:11 PM
I once said that my hardware for Lightwave would not cost more than my first car... $8000 new. Now, that is easy to do. The software, well, that could be very costly... but not more than $8k.

ShadowMystic
04-10-2012, 01:11 AM
I once said that my hardware for Lightwave would not cost more than my first car... $8000 new. Now, that is easy to do. The software, well, that could be very costly... but not more than $8k.

I have better insurance on my hardware than I do my car...

motivalex
09-16-2012, 03:24 PM
I started this thread last year and we were going to go fully to another 3d package and half the team is using that package. The showcased features in LW 11.5 on top of version 11 changed my mind and I have now upgraded from 9.6. Lightwave is back in the game.

lardbros
09-16-2012, 03:30 PM
I started this thread last year and we were going to go fully to another 3d package and half the team is using that package. The showcased features in LW 11.5 on top of version 11 changed my mind and I have now upgraded from 9.6. Lightwave is back in the game.

Welcome back to the gang! ;)

Seriously though... that is very good news. It's a shame that Newtek lost for the other half of your team, but still... keeping a foot in the door is a good thing for any software company (especially in the UK where LW isn't used as much as others.)... atleast it has some users left. Just out of interest, what is the other package?

motivalex
09-18-2012, 03:07 AM
Welcome back to the gang! ;)

Seriously though... that is very good news. It's a shame that Newtek lost for the other half of your team, but still... keeping a foot in the door is a good thing for any software company (especially in the UK where LW isn't used as much as others.)... atleast it has some users left. Just out of interest, what is the other package?

They use Cinema 4D. I am looking forward to using 11.5 new After Effects pipeline and soft body dynamics for some future projects.

lardbros
09-18-2012, 05:57 AM
Yeah, it's an exciting time for sure... Not seen much info on the AE interoperability but I'm sure it'll be fine!

Can't be too long until we get to actually play with it :D