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cgisoul
11-10-2011, 09:42 PM
Interesting new features. :D
http://www.newtek.com/features-lightwave-menu.html

Gar
11-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

cgisoul
11-10-2011, 10:14 PM
Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

You might want to contact CS, I'm sure they will be more than happy to help you out. Regarding if this features should have been in the last upgrade.......... I reserve my comments :thumbsup:

Gar
11-10-2011, 10:24 PM
I have just sent a message...But this is newtek again, not giving enough details and getting the wrong impression across...sound like they are turning in to AUTODESK to me...they will probably start renting it soon. I HOPE they have something for recent upgraders. Otherwise , its time to go to another package if i am spending that much again this soon.

jasonwestmas
11-10-2011, 10:29 PM
Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

Yes we complained a lot. . . six months ago.

SBowie
11-10-2011, 10:32 PM
It's pretty common practice to provide those who purchased within a set period prior to an upgrade with a break - but this case may be a little different, since the actual release is still some time off. There are other differences too, but it's late so I won't get into them. This all said, I'd not get too worked up until more info is available.

LMUSIC
11-10-2011, 10:35 PM
I'm trying to figure out how to get the pre-release. Hmmm, maybe more clicking. . . .

Phrog
11-11-2011, 12:56 AM
I am in the exact same boat! Very dissappointed as well.



Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

akademus
11-11-2011, 01:53 AM
When they're not releasing new versions people are disappointed, when they do people are dissapointed again.

Two versions (or one new version and one pre-release) are very welcomed after cycle 9 dry period of almost 2 years.

I'd be happy if we get a new version every year. Things have changed in the industry, with AD being a year or two ahead with releases :) and that is not NTs fault. You wanted them to keep up and that is what they are doing.

biliousfrog
11-11-2011, 02:04 AM
I think LW 11 sounds pretty good. It's the upgrade that LW10 should have been and I'd quite like to upgrade my 9.6...if only it was clear what the prices are and how to do it.

moussepipi2000
11-11-2011, 02:13 AM
money need to flow for a good economy, bought it!

cgisoul
11-11-2011, 02:17 AM
I believe the upgrade price is $695

JBT27
11-11-2011, 02:29 AM
On my account, there's a LW11 Pre-Release Upgrade, Upgrade Post, and Upgrade Charter - the latter is listed as $395, the other two say 'Call for Pricing' ... but all three carry the same description ...

Julian.

OlaHaldor
11-11-2011, 02:47 AM
On my account, only the "upgrade-post" has a price, and it's $495

JBT27
11-11-2011, 02:58 AM
Oh ... then it's obviously according to when people signed up for Hardcore or whatever ... I'm seeing people saying either $495 or $695, though I signed up before that 'magic' March date back whenever, so I guess that'll be why ... which means our other license will be one of the other two prices ... I hope the lower one ... :D

Julian.

cgisoul
11-11-2011, 03:44 AM
For charter members -> $395 -> Includes 5 consecutive major releases without changing in upgrade price. Being point releases free.

For non-charter member -> $495 ->Includes 5 consecutive major releases without changing in upgrade price. Being point releases free.

For everyone that doesn't fall in those 2 categories -> $695 upgrade price.

For brand new users -> $1495

At least that was the pricing few months ago, not sure if they have changed that.

JBT27
11-11-2011, 03:57 AM
Sounds about right and looks like what's happening right now.

Julian.

colkai
11-11-2011, 03:58 AM
Well, guess that makes it official, at those upgrade prices, my days of upgrading are dead.
Though, bring honest, I sort of expected as much, Lightwave is no longer going in a direction that suits me and from what I've read so far, any serious attention to modeller is still lacking. Again a "layout centric" update.
So LW12 is probably the earliest modelelr would get some love, if then.
Ah well, t'was fun whilst it lasted I suppose.
Time to learn other things,

JBT27
11-11-2011, 04:01 AM
It's certainly a great shame about Modeler, but I'm one whose greater requirements are in Layout, and all of this, in 11, and IF it all works, is good stuff ... in fact although it's still very much catching up with some of the competition, there are some very nice feature additions here ... for me anyway.

Julian.

Netvudu
11-11-2011, 04:18 AM
Iīm really happy about this version release, and I hope this will be the new policy for LW in the future. I wholeheartedly agree with Akademus. Some people complain no matter what. Itīs literally impossible to release strong updates without charging users for several years. At least, not with rival companies doing otherwise.
Of course, those complaining about prices now, are the first people to complain when updates are not coming.
Thatīs the kind of attitude that kills a product. Fortunately for us, Newtek knows better now.

colkai
11-11-2011, 05:48 AM
It's certainly a great shame about Modeler, but I'm one whose greater requirements are in Layout, and all of this, in 11, and IF it all works, is good stuff ... in fact although it's still very much catching up with some of the competition, there are some very nice feature additions here ... for me anyway.

Julian.

Yep, I'm sure those who live in layout will be happy, certainly seems it is being driven by a given faction of users / studios. In that case, probably worth the money for those folks.
On the upside for me as well, I now know I can write off any thoughts of moving forward with LW, which means I can focus my energies elsewhere.
May not sound like an upside as far as me continuing to use LW is concerned, but I'm sure Newtek isn't gonna cry over 1 lost customer and it seems many are likely to buy into the next pre-release.

The only constant is change. ;)

prometheus
11-11-2011, 05:53 AM
I donīt understand this, why does this show up here in the general discussion and not in a Newtek announcement? and from a non newtek staff?

Or did I miss this somewhere else?

Looks pretty nice, I wanted bullit foremost, and a native fracture tool, so that can be unchecked.

Instances was expected too..uncheck that too.

Flocking wasnīt expected, nice
Remains to see how VPR performs and fiber fx

The hypervoxels improvement doesnt seem much thou, thatīs a major let down that the volume mode doesnīt recieve a boost with a similar shader like dynamite wich doesnīt work in Lightwave 10.1

All the other enhancements seems all good, but Newtek delivers new features in a very slow pace, and I havenīt seen any really jawdroppin innovative stuff...in my point of view.

Gonna be interesting to see what I would have to pay for this, Im getting more and more annoyed with that I didnīt ask for a refund, since I think I didnīt get what I payed for the last time, cant wait to see what they will offer me this time.

Michael

JBT27
11-11-2011, 06:18 AM
Yeah ... I thought that ... then all morning I've been thinking they released LW11 pre-release on 11/11/11 but made no fuss about it ... just an email to each customer.

Julian.

eagleeyed
11-11-2011, 06:21 AM
I shall be giving NewTek a call as soon as they open so I know what pricing I will be eligible for. Sent them an email on Tuesday midday (Monday night their time) and no response regarding it so shall just call.

The upgrade is a good step in the right direction, and I am quite happy with the features, especially the render pass manager and dynamics. I also already own 2 PlayStation Moves and a 3D Connexion Mouse so that will be awesome to use and play with.

Just hope they are able to provide what pricing I am eligible for when I call, went through a huge hassle of getting my HardCORE license on the database, took around 9 - 10 months so may have been eligible for Charter or just normal Hardcore pricing. Shall try and find out.

I am impressed, I really did hope Modeller would get a lovely touch up as I have been looking at Modo very recently, however with LW Cad 4 coming out LightWave has probably kept hold of me (it would be a waste of money I have already spent on everything if I just moved to Modo).

Please though NewTek, please look into your email system, didn't even get an auto reply saying message was received.

DBMiller
11-11-2011, 06:27 AM
Yeah ... I thought that ... then all morning I've been thinking they released LW11 pre-release on 11/11/11 but made no fuss about it ... just an email to each customer.

Julian.

I haven't even gotten an eMail yet.

SBowie
11-11-2011, 06:36 AM
I donīt understand this, why does this show up here in the general discussion and not in a Newtek announcement? and from a non newtek staff?I would say that the main reason little was said yesterday was so as not to give away the surprise before last night's event. I'm sure much more detail will be forthcoming moving forward.

cresshead
11-11-2011, 06:43 AM
http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=192404971
show starts 20min in...audio sync is out which is a shame..NO lightwave 11 on this clip apparently

SBowie
11-11-2011, 06:48 AM
http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=192404971
show starts 20min in...audio sync is out which is a shame..NO lightwave 11 on this clip apparentlyThat sucks. I'm on a crappy motel wireless connection, and the original stream was really very good last night. Maybe they'll get it fixed later today.

50one
11-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Looks awesome so far, definitely heading into right direction.
Now, need to convince my boss to upgrade, shadow catcher itself will be useful as I tend to use the nodal tricks but always had problems with alphas and shading.

:thumbsup:

cresshead
11-11-2011, 07:35 AM
hope the video editors over at newtek don't have a hangover so they can cut and upload the lightwave 11 portion of the event for us to watch soon
[i missed it...too tired to stay up to 3am]

jasonwestmas
11-11-2011, 07:36 AM
hope the video editors over at newtek don't have a hangover so they can cut and upload the lightwave 11 portion of the event for us to watch soon
[i missed it...too tired to stay up to 3am]

Yeah my internet is slow. I'd be interested in a video as well.

manholoz
11-11-2011, 07:37 AM
I just woke up to the announcement and the live link. People seem to be having fun socializing, did I miss something in the live feed?

Dexter2999
11-11-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm sorry and maybe it's just me. I think that Newtek should offer those that paid into Core and stuck with them a free upgrade to 11. I know they offered refunds to the ones that wanted out when Core fell through but for those that stayed in figuring they'd come out with 11 shouldn't have to pay twice.

I know it's still early so I'm hoping that Newtek will do that. Not counting on it. If not, I think my days of upgrades for LW are done. I'll still use it but but I'll stick with 10.1.

just my 2Ē

The people who bought into CORE are getting like a $300 discount over people who didn't lock in. And if that price hangs over the next five releases, as promised, that is $1500 saved in the long run.

This seems fairly generous. If you took CORE completely out of the equation and looked at it as "Give us $X now, and will give you the next release when it comes out and over the next 5 releases you will save 2X on all upgrades."

There certainly doesn't seem any reason to threaten to take your business elsewhere over a deal like that.

prometheus
11-11-2011, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portnoy View Post
I'm sorry and maybe it's just me. I think that Newtek should offer those that paid into Core and stuck with them a free upgrade to 11. I know they offered refunds to the ones that wanted out when Core fell through but for those that stayed in figuring they'd come out with 11 shouldn't have to pay twice.

I know it's still early so I'm hoping that Newtek will do that. Not counting on it. If not, I think my days of upgrades for LW are done. I'll still use it but but I'll stick with 10.1.

just my 2Ē

I put 5Ē for that, it is the absolut most efficient and most decent thing to do for those who bought in to the core program.

Michael

Snosrap
11-11-2011, 08:56 AM
For me it's been 3 years since I last paid NT for an upgrade. I can understand how people may feel now that they need to shell out more money for features they were promised on the first release of Core. I was kind of hoping that Rob was going to announce at the very end that the upgrade to 11 would be free so I was mildly disapointed. I dont "need" most of the features shown, but NT is showing me that they are going in the right direction so I supported them by upgrading. People have mentioned that there were'nt any advancements Modeler with this release and I suppose that disapoints me the most, but I'm really liking that VPR now resolves to a higher quality and shift clicking will select surfaces. All in all I'm pleased with the release. Bullet is a blast and is very user friendly and IMO works much better than iBounce. (Sorry Steve :D) However there is no cloth implementation yet. Instancing is nice too with a full panel for all kinds of settings or simple add instance button much like add clone. The node editor is vastly improved as well.

SBowie
11-11-2011, 09:00 AM
People have mentioned that there were'nt any advancements Modeler with this release and I suppose that disapoints me the most...I am positive that EVERYONE would like to see Modeler given the love it needs, but I've been expecting it to be slower to show signs of receiving it, for the simple reason that it's a more difficult implementation than a lot of others things and always seemed unlikely to me to be the 'first fruits' of the new direction. It made a lot more sense as an early item when viewed as a foundation for a new standalone app - viewed from a dev perspective.

Iaian7
11-11-2011, 09:02 AM
The people who bought into CORE are getting like a $300 discount over people who didn't lock in. And if that price hangs over the next five releases, as promised, that is $1500 saved in the long run.

This seems fairly generous. If you took CORE completely out of the equation and looked at it as "Give us $X now, and will give you the next release when it comes out and over the next 5 releases you will save 2X on all upgrades."

There certainly doesn't seem any reason to threaten to take your business elsewhere over a deal like that.

In the long term, yes, it could end up costing less. In the short term, however, it would have been cheaper to upgrade from LW9 to LW11, skipping the LW10 promise/failure debacle altogether.

Argue rational facts as much as you want, I'll be the first to admit I'm still feeling pretty sore about that. :(

Andyjaggy
11-11-2011, 09:06 AM
This looks like a great release, lots of features that get me really excited. I am actually tempted to upgrade.

But if it is indeed 695 for me to upgrade from 9.6, I am not sure I could justify the cost.

It is also sad to see that Modeler still has not received any love, what is this now like 10 years without any major updated to modeler? I guess that's why I have Modo.

geo_n
11-11-2011, 09:13 AM
This looks like a great release, lots of features that get me really excited. I am actually tempted to upgrade.

But if it is indeed 695 for me to upgrade from 9.6, I am not sure I could justify the cost.

It is also sad to see that Modeler still has not received any love, what is this now like 10 years without any major updated to modeler? I guess that's why I have Modo.

It is better for lw 9 users now I think. Paid 495 for lw 10.1 and will pay 495 for lw 11. I think it might be better for me to skip and wait for lw 12 where there's more unification in place. Just my preference.

beverins
11-11-2011, 09:16 AM
So I take it nobody captured the live stream last night? stickam.com's recording is cut before the LW 11 stuff. Or, did the live stream cut too?

as for the upgrade price - $395 for CORE charter users. How long does this pricing last? I'm tanked right now, need to wait a few weeks... :-(

beverins
11-11-2011, 09:17 AM
I'll see if I can post the stickam video onto youtube in case people have trouble watching it overseas.

Portnoy
11-11-2011, 09:46 AM
Quote from Dexter2999:

The people who bought into CORE are getting like a $300 discount over people who didn't lock in. And if that price hangs over the next five releases, as promised, that is $1500 saved in the long run.

This seems fairly generous. If you took CORE completely out of the equation and looked at it as "Give us $X now, and will give you the next release when it comes out and over the next 5 releases you will save 2X on all upgrades."

There certainly doesn't seem any reason to threaten to take your business elsewhere over a deal like that.

Well, when you add on the $395 or $495 it was to buy into the Hardcore program That's $700-$800. Which is a lot to spend for some, especially when Core was balked on. Maybe down the line it does pan out but I'm talking CS for those that stuck by them. I think that's what separates good companies from average/bad ones. Don't get me wrong, I love and will continue to use LW 10.1 but I can't justify paying $395 for Core, which didn't pan out, and then another $395 for LW 11.

I'm just saying I think it would be good practice for NT to honor the ones that did buy into Core with a free upgrade to 11.

Portnoy
11-11-2011, 09:49 AM
Of course, I'm just saying that for the ones that didn't ask for a refund with Core. Had I asked for one, which I didn't, I would expect to pay the upgrade price.

Samus
11-11-2011, 09:54 AM
Hmm... Seems nice but i may sound like a "Tough croud" but it look like "too little too late... but finaly your getting there" SADLY...when you say LW 11 is Dynamic's driven , should you have forgotten CLOTH SIMULATION!!! Cmon now!!!! Guys!!

At least get Md2000 running back on LW(should'nt be hard) again and updated with Cloth FX features.

Sigh... but happy to see some sunshine at the horizon for lightwave anyway.

littlewaves
11-11-2011, 10:07 AM
Hmm... Seems nice but i may sound like a "Tough croud" but it look like "too little too late... but finaly your getting there" SADLY...when you say LW 11 is Dynamic's driven , should you have forgotten CLOTH SIMULATION!!! Cmon now!!!! Guys!!

At least get Md2000 running back on LW(should'nt be hard) again and updated with Cloth FX features.

Sigh... but happy to see some sunshine at the horizon for lightwave anyway.

Bullet physics have cloth so I'm hopeful (but not TOO hopeful!) that we might get it in a free point release before LW12

Is current dynamics (eg clothFX) multithreded in either 10 or 11?

Iaian7
11-11-2011, 10:14 AM
Well, when you add on the $395 or $495 it was to buy into the Hardcore program That's $700-$800. Which is a lot to spend for some, especially when Core was balked on. Maybe down the line it does pan out but I'm talking CS for those that stuck by them. I think that's what separates good companies from average/bad ones. Don't get me wrong, I love and will continue to use LW 10.1 but I can't justify paying $395 for Core, which didn't pan out, and then another $395 for LW 11.

I'm just saying I think it would be good practice for NT to honor the ones that did buy into Core with a free upgrade to 11.

Absolutely agree. While I appreciate long-term lower cost for upgrades, and I fully understand that Newtek offered a refund on LW10, it feels somewhat rude to deliver* the features people were promised last time while demanding another upgrade. I didn't take the refund on my HC membership, trusting and hoping that my long-term loyalty would be rewarded. Objectively, one can argue that I'm getting a better deal in the long run. Emotionally, I feel taken advantage of.

Newtek has been overly lenient in the past regarding free updates (9.5 and 9.6 were terrific additions and NewTek didn't get a dime for either one), so it's understandable they don't want to make the same mistakes that will make it fiscally difficult or even untenable to continue business. Unfortunately, sour tastes left in the mouth are hard to scrub away, and make a long-term difference in how eager users are to upgrade, recommend, or even continue using a product.

Edit: Perhaps the biggest surprise to me is that after the LW10 debacle, upgrading to LW11 (with the features originally promised in the LW10 cycle) will end up being more expensive in the short term than skipping LW10 altogether. Sure, in the long run, we trust upgrades will continue at the cheaper price...but I'm going to guess that for a lot of users, trust is in short supply.

*or at least promise to deliver...again.

robertoortiz
11-11-2011, 10:18 AM
Bullet physics have cloth so I'm hopeful (but not TOO hopeful!) that we might get it in a free point release before LW12

Is current dynamics (eg clothFX) multithreded in either 10 or 11?

Here is a paper by AMD on doing cloth simulation with the bullet engine.
http://www.heterogeneouscompute.org/hipeac2011Presentations/ClothSimulation.pdf
So it is quite doable:

Sadly I will not be part of the first week of testing- since I am getting married next week.

Ok Newtek the next big thing is form me PTEX implementation.
http://ptex.us/
And Alembic support.
http://opensource.imageworks.com/?p=alembic

calilifestyle
11-11-2011, 10:22 AM
After watching lw 11 at VFX minds i have to say i ready to upgrade. The Flocking demo was so sweet, along with Fracture.

robertoortiz
11-11-2011, 10:25 AM
Oh BTW
Who came up with this page?
http://www.newtek.com/features-lightwave-menu.html

The person who did this deserves a BONUS.

It showcases in a clear manner what the upgrade entails. I feel strongly that this kind of format should be SOP from now on at NT.

probiner
11-11-2011, 10:34 AM
Oh BTW
Who came up with this page?
http://www.newtek.com/features-lightwave-menu.html

The person who did this deserves a BONUS.

It showcases in a clear manner what the upgrade entails. I feel strongly that this kind of format should be SOP from now on at NT.

Yes, it's a nice page. The white text/blue background is a bit weird, but no fuss. It's a sexy page.
Where is Unity by the way? They are still probably cooking it.

bazsa73
11-11-2011, 10:36 AM
Oh BTW
Who came up with this page?
http://www.newtek.com/features-lightwave-menu.html

The person who did this deserves a BONUS.

It showcases in a clear manner what the upgrade entails. I feel strongly that this kind of format should be SOP from now on at NT.

yes it is informative but we live in the future which means streaming video is part of our life so if Pixologic can demo the new features of ZBrush then why NewTek inc can not?

cresshead
11-11-2011, 10:37 AM
yes it is informative but we live in the future which means streaming video is part of our life so if Pixologic can demo the new features of ZBrush then why NewTek inc can not?

yeh...where's the video?:agree:

Larry_g1s
11-11-2011, 10:46 AM
Argue rational facts as much as you want, I'll be the first to admit I'm still feeling pretty sore about that. :(

While I appreciate long-term lower cost for upgrades, and I fully understand that Newtek offered a refund on LW10, it feels somewhat rude to deliver* the features people were promised last time while demanding another upgrade. This looks to be a much nicer release, but I'm 100% with you Iaian7.

SBowie
11-11-2011, 10:49 AM
Sadly I will not be part of the first week of testing- since I am getting married next week.Well, first of all - heart congratulations! :D

(Second, you probably don't want to let the blushing bride read that sentence - word to the wise).:hey:

colkai
11-11-2011, 11:02 AM
Well, first of all - heart congratulations! :D

(Second, you probably don't want to let the blushing bride read that sentence - word to the wise).:hey:

heh, that would be THE shortest marriage on record. :p

bazsa73
11-11-2011, 11:10 AM
It's like swallowing the cherry with the seed :) But all in all what I have seen so far is very promising and long awaited especially for those artists who are on their own and cannot afford all the tools big studios offer. So let's rejoice!

Snosrap
11-11-2011, 11:56 AM
I am positive that EVERYONE would like to see Modeler given the love it needs, but I've been expecting it to be slower to show signs of receiving it, for the simple reason that it's a more difficult implementation than a lot of others things and always seemed unlikely to me to be the 'first fruits' of the new direction. It made a lot more sense as an early item when viewed as a foundation for a new standalone app - viewed from a dev perspective.I don't disagree at all. Now that we have some long time needs addressed in Layout (instancing, dynamics, interactive rendering, etc. etc.) I'm hoping that NT will see the light and develop Modeler with the Core codebase, bring that up to speed and then put layout capabilities into that instead of trying to get modeling tools into layout.

Emmanuel
11-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Yeah, but why do I have to pay for GoZ for LightWave when its free to every other app ?

jasonwestmas
11-11-2011, 12:49 PM
Yeah, but why do I have to pay for GoZ for LightWave when its free to every other app ?

Depends who creates the plugin. In this case NT did. If they want to sell it as a feature set. . .

JBT27
11-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah, but why do I have to pay for GoZ for LightWave when its free to every other app ?

I suppose that's a reasonable observation ... but the problem is there's a ton of other stuff in there that is NT's development, so just because GoZ is included perhaps in their eyes doesn't mean the user pays for that component ... they just chose to build it into this release.

I know what you mean, but it is a somewhat pointless argument with all the other stuff in there that is chargeable. What price would anyone put on instancing versus flocking, or the fracture tool, or the render buffers, and so on ... ?

Julian.

Lewis
11-11-2011, 01:09 PM
It made a lot more sense as an early item when viewed as a foundation for a new standalone app - viewed from a dev perspective.

That's understandable and expected (it was obvious and hinted by now that we will get layout only update again) but then again how does Long standing BUG in certain modeling tools look from as you say "dev perspective" ? I mean they had time to make completely new tool for modeler (Fracture) and not time to fix Bevel/Rounder :)? There is no way how this looks good from modeling perspective. Why didn't they make Fracture work in layout already if layout is our future modeling environment ? That would show desire for unification more seriously also. As much as i like what they did in layout (and i seriously like most of stuff, impressive work on new AA/As system) i still "hate" that they aren't fixing long standing issues in modeler after all those years and user complains :(. Even if is going to be completely deleted or whatever by LW 12 we still need to use it till then - right? So yeah it's great LAYOUT 11 :D ;).

But show was very good (at least this part what I saw form VFX guys in 65 minutes) and i believe Rob gave great presentation of 11 since he always do nice presentations.

cheers

Emmanuel
11-11-2011, 01:17 PM
I suppose that's a reasonable observation ... but the problem is there's a ton of other stuff in there that is NT's development, so just because GoZ is included perhaps in their eyes doesn't mean the user pays for that component ... they just chose to build it into this release.

I know what you mean, but it is a somewhat pointless argument with all the other stuff in there that is chargeable. What price would anyone put on instancing versus flocking, or the fracture tool, or the render buffers, and so on ... ?

Julian.

Agreed.But then Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady.
I think both, GoZ and Bullet should be free of charge downloads for every registered LW user, if ONLY to show the community that they learned from the CORE trainwreck, want to proof that they are worth our money and trust and pay us back for the YEARS of empty promises, unfulfilled features (CC SDS anyone ? WORKING FiberFX ?) and lack of modern, standard features (normal maps in modeler viewport, history, modern UV tools etc).
Its called PR and Customer CARE, which NT is severely lacking in, just as if they have no competition.Its a bit...and I never thought I would say that...Autodeskish.

The Dommo
11-11-2011, 01:38 PM
Would you work for free?

Come on, yes GoZ and Bullet may be 'free' to get hold of but they take time and expertise to implement. If they didn't, you would have done it yourself.

Give them a break.

gordonrobb
11-11-2011, 01:38 PM
I really like the look of this upgrade, but I'm a little confused. I am a charter member, which (if I remember right) means I'm locked in to $395 per upgrade for 5 upgrades. So is there any reason that the pre-release is $395? Wouldn't it be less? or is it just that I'm getting ie earlier than other folks.

jasonwestmas
11-11-2011, 01:42 PM
Agreed.But then Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady.
I think both, GoZ and Bullet should be free of charge downloads for every registered LW user,.

That's total bogus, dude ;)

Bullet and GoZ are both nothing more than SDK tools, they know nothing about Lightwave until someone builds a plugin for them. You might as well accuse NT for stealing everything inside of Lightwave. It's all outside information that had to be processed and built to fit the original LW code.

Likewise, many here take the LW sdk and build stuff to sell to others.

Dexter2999
11-11-2011, 01:44 PM
I really like the look of this upgrade, but I'm a little confused. I am a charter member, which (if I remember right) means I'm locked in to $395 per upgrade for 5 upgrades. So is there any reason that the pre-release is $395? Wouldn't it be less? or is it just that I'm getting ie earlier than other folks.

I haven't heard it explained out completely but from what I have heard/read that $395 is your locked in price (mine is $495.) That entitles you to download the software now which technically may qualify as a Beta because the "Gold" release isn't until later this year.

JBT27
11-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Agreed.But then Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady.
I think both, GoZ and Bullet should be free of charge downloads for every registered LW user, if ONLY to show the community that they learned from the CORE trainwreck, want to proof that they are worth our money and trust and pay us back for the YEARS of empty promises, unfulfilled features (CC SDS anyone ? WORKING FiberFX ?) and lack of modern, standard features (normal maps in modeler viewport, history, modern UV tools etc).
Its called PR and Customer CARE, which NT is severely lacking in, just as if they have no competition.Its a bit...and I never thought I would say that...Autodeskish.

Oh I'm not standing firm with NT on the ethics of this, or lack of. I suppose I'm just content to see it moving forward on more solid ground ... not up to date, but moving forward at least ... and I was always a very tolerant kind of person ... :)

I think some of the truth is that wording a PR statement to be truthful, so in the vein of 'we know that GoZ and Bullet are free, but we're charging a bit to incorporate it, then there's instancing and flocking, which was all our stuff so we're charging more for that' ... well, that doesn't really work. There's a pile of new stuff, hopefully it mostly works well, and will do so by final release, and it cost me $395 (in my case). In the case of instancing, there's HDInstance, which has some serious bugs which have not been addressed for a long time, or DPInstance, which is generously offered and regularly updated, but not native ... I have battled with HDI on deadlines for some time, so if the new instancing works well and predictably, that alone for me is worth the money.

But again, I do take your point and I agree, but LW is my workhorse and this new stuff, whatever its provenance, is a real boost.

Julian.

motivalex
11-11-2011, 01:51 PM
Agreed.But then Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady.
I think both, GoZ and Bullet should be free of charge downloads for every registered LW user..

Cinema 4D has implemented Bullet phsyics and charged for the upgrade. 3D Studio Max has a work in progress 3rd party implementation that will cost. Softimage has Bullet physics via Exocortex at 499 dollars.

So... Judging by your posts. I think the real issue is that you are annoyed with Newtek for past mistakes.

:)

zumwalt
11-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Charging those of us who purchased 10 within the past year an upgrade charge when 10 was still in beta and it just went gold not to long ago then 10.1 came out, now announcing 11? I don't think so, this is morally and ethically wrong, there are features in 11 that are SUPPOSED to be in 10, so it is simple, update 10 to 10.2 and include all the features that were supposed to be in 10 to begin with, which is why I purchased 10 (including the 2d piece which STILL is not in 10 but was part of the 10 design)

That or give all of us a free upgrade to 11 and make sure 11 includes all the features 10 was supposed to and still doesn't.

Dexter2999
11-11-2011, 01:58 PM
I think the real issue is that you are annoyed with Newtek for past mistakes.

:)

I think that is the case with most of the people saying things like "this should have been a .5 release" or "This release should be for free."

The mistakes of CORE and the promises made then are still hanging over the heads of the new team.

zumwalt
11-11-2011, 02:21 PM
No, it goes beyond what "was" promised to what "was" promised which is the reason why the product was purchased, in most states this is called "bait and switch" and there are laws against a company advertising one thing and selling something else. All I Care about is getting the promised features in the version that it was supposed to exist in, not pushing forward into a new version and obliteration of the promised features as if they will simply "go away" and nothing will happen.

10 just got out of beta 6 months ago for crying out loud and it was feature incomplete!

jasonwestmas
11-11-2011, 02:26 PM
No, it goes beyond what "was" promised to what "was" promised which is the reason why the product was purchased, in most states this is called "bait and switch" and there are laws against a company advertising one thing and selling something else. All I Care about is getting the promised features in the version that it was supposed to exist in, not pushing forward into a new version and obliteration of the promised features as if they will simply "go away" and nothing will happen.

10 just got out of beta 6 months ago for crying out loud and it was feature incomplete!

Don't you know that software developers never promise anything except a new license? But I agree this was a major case of feature slide but we were saying that 6 months ago, why bring it up again.

I'm not one to let things go and say it was alright what NT did, but it doesn't do any good to keep asking or demanding for what you think you deserve. Nothing against you but there are a lot of people including myself that just need to buy more wisely next time.

BigHache
11-11-2011, 06:27 PM
All I Care about is getting the promised features in the version that it was supposed to exist in, not pushing forward into a new version and obliteration of the promised features as if they will simply "go away" and nothing will happen.

While I can't say I disagree with this, I also believe what has been stated now is what it is. The money back offer on the 10/CORE upgrade was everyone's chance whom was absolutely unsatisfied to back out. Otherwise, at least my understanding is, you were content enough to push forward.

Yeah, it's not pretty, no one's really overly happy about it, prolly not even NT. So here we are and we're moving forward or we're not.

Dexter2999
11-11-2011, 07:54 PM
10 just got out of beta 6 months ago for crying out loud and it was feature incomplete!


I believe 10 was out of Beta as of 12/31/10 as I recall. That was the date of the "10.0 Gold release candidate"

"Bait and Switch" refers to an illegal practice and I see it thrown around way too often on the boards (much like the word "Nazi" gets used on the internet in general.)

The features being offered now were originally proposed as part of the CORE standalone application. That application never came to fruition and refunds were offered. If you elected to not take advantage of that offer and stay with LW10 (and thereby stay locked in for the price advantage for the next five upgrades that equal twice what you paid into the CORE program), I don't believe you can claim "bait and switch" at this time.

They offered it. They said that it wasn't going to happen and offered refunds to HardCORE members. DONE. You either bailed or made the decision to get LW10 and the price break on the next five versions.

The stuff from CORE is being moved into Classic LW gradually.
With LW10 you got the VPR bit.
With LW11 you get the Python, Instancing, Bullet bits.
Who knows?, maybe with 12 or 14 it will be unified.

But the comparison to an illegal act is unfounded.

Celshader
11-11-2011, 08:01 PM
WORKING FiberFX ?

I'd like to step in here and say that despite a few pipeline quirks, FiberFX in LightWave 10.1 is working quite well for us on TERRA NOVA. We've thrown FiberFX on pterasaurs (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolmus_pterosauri), pteranodons, ovosaurs (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Ovosaurus), Slashers (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Acceraptor), and Nykoraptors (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Nykoraptor) so far, and it always looks great.

lino.grandi
11-11-2011, 08:02 PM
Yeah, but why do I have to pay for GoZ for LightWave when its free to every other app ?

LightWave11 offers GoZ support. LightWave10.1 doesn't. You don't pay for GoZ, you pay for the work that has been done in 11 to make it possible.

COBRASoft
11-11-2011, 08:08 PM
I think most people here are forgetting Python support. I have no idea how deep Python will be integrated in LW11, but if it will be integrated in modeler, a lot of tools can be rewritten/adapted.

Greenlaw
11-11-2011, 08:16 PM
I think most people here are forgetting Python support. I have no idea how deep Python will be integrated in LW11, but if it will be integrated in modeler, a lot of tools can be rewritten/adapted.
I agree--Python support is a HUGE deal! Now I just need to learn it. (Fortunately, my wife has been learning it for a while now.) :)

G.

Andy Meyer
11-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Agreed.But then Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady.
I think both, GoZ and Bullet should be free of charge downloads for every registered LW user

you are a funny guy :-)
i have new car tires. i will ask my garage owner if he will mount the tires for free. the tires doesnt cost him a buck, so he will mount them for free... like that?
:question:

Bill Carey
11-11-2011, 10:54 PM
you are a funny guy :-)
i have new car tires. i will ask my garage owner if he will mount the tires for free. the tires doesnt cost him a buck, so he will mount them for free... like that?
:question:

Also align and balance them so they work right on your particular car for free as well.

Emmanuel
11-12-2011, 02:52 AM
Was that before or after You ordered Your car which was advertised with leather, improved engine and more comfortable seats and You paid for it, and when You cam to take it home, it lacked most of what was advertised ?
Oh, and where I live, these things are called value added bonus, so when I purchase a pack of tires for like 1000 bucks, I KNOW that the garage will put them on my car for free, because they value me as a customer.
Strange, I always thought this was an american tradition to make customers feel valued and appreciated :)
So far NT most of the time threw something in the basket when releasing a new version, like LWCad, Vue d'esprit, CanDo etc.
Seems the new NT doesn't have to show its appreciation for You business anymore.

Emmanuel
11-12-2011, 02:56 AM
LightWave11 offers GoZ support. LightWave10.1 doesn't. You don't pay for GoZ, you pay for the work that has been done in 11 to make it possible.

Actually its the other way around. NT so far failed to deliver me a product that is up to the same standard a)as most other programs and b)what they announced LW to be.
So now I am petting them and pay them for making LW competitive ?
If LW would have been up to the standard in the first place, Pixologic would have probably had GoZ ready for it along with Maya, Max and XSI.
So from my perception its (again, we had that with Joe Alter already and other tools in the past where LW just wasn't ready) NT's duty to make sure I as a customer can benefit from the same advantages as the others, its not ME who wants to sell the product, right, and especially since the price has gone up steeply ?
Ever wondered why there is no Vray for LW ? And why engines like Unity or UDK prefer Max and Maya ? Its because LW was't ready when it counted, and its going down since then.
Now if NT was clever they would do ANYTHING to keep LW competitive and on the radar, especially for game development (where even MODO has passed LW by easily).Oh, yeah, and giving away GoZ would hurt NT so much, right ? As an act of good will ? Jeeeez.

The Dommo
11-12-2011, 03:41 AM
Charging those of us who purchased 10 within the past year an upgrade charge when 10 was still in beta and it just went gold not to long ago then 10.1 came out, now announcing 11? I don't think so, this is morally and ethically wrong, there are features in 11 that are SUPPOSED to be in 10, so it is simple, update 10 to 10.2 and include all the features that were supposed to be in 10 to begin with, which is why I purchased 10 (including the 2d piece which STILL is not in 10 but was part of the 10 design)

That or give all of us a free upgrade to 11 and make sure 11 includes all the features 10 was supposed to and still doesn't.

Well, what do you want them to do? I think all 3D software companies are like this. Somewhere along the development timelines, people will buy the software, upon first new release launch or near to the next. You can't expect Newtek to turn around and say:

"Hey everyone, we're launching LW12 in 9 months, so we're making LW11 unavailable till then", can you? :2guns:


LightWave11 offers GoZ support. LightWave10.1 doesn't. You don't pay for GoZ, you pay for the work that has been done in 11 to make it possible.

Exactly what I was saying, Lino.

Emmanuel
11-12-2011, 04:18 AM
Well, what do you want them to do? I think all 3D software companies are like this.


Erm, Pixologic anyone ? So far I have been nothing less than impressed, look at the cool plugins at their site You can download, the new additional brushes, the workflow enhancements, its no wonder everybody just is excited when Pixo announce a new release.
NT ? Yawn. They announce standard things as if they were super spectacular.
You do realise the last substantial update to modeler happened like 5 years ago ? 5 years !!! They weren't even able to add working CC SDS !
You also realise most studios use LW for rendering these days ?
And Maya for animating ?
And that modo is the favoured modeling app ?
Doesn't that bother anybody ? We can't even show normal maps in modeler, as the OpenGL doesn't support it (which has also been updated
like 5 years ago).
When is modeler actually gonna be updated ?
I don't want NT to only to make LW work well with others, I want NT to deliver a product that leads the way.

lino.grandi
11-12-2011, 05:09 AM
Erm, Pixologic anyone ? So far I have been nothing less than impressed, look at the cool plugins at their site You can download, the new additional brushes, the workflow enhancements, its no wonder everybody just is excited when Pixo announce a new release.
NT ? Yawn. They announce standard things as if they were super spectacular.

LightWave11 new features are not just "Instances" or "Bullet" or "GoZ". We've done and still doing our best to make these tools (and many others that have not even been announced!) something unique that can vastly improve the productivity ofthe software.
Of course the perception of this can be different for you or other users, but basically we're developing LightWave with our minds targeted towards real production projects.
As a user I couldn't be more excited about this release.



You do realise the last substantial update to modeler happened like 5 years ago ? 5 years !!! They weren't even able to add working CC SDS !


We strongly feel that Modeler needs a lot of cares. We've done several speed optimizations, and we're perfectly aware that working on a better definition of the tools and mesh editing speed is something extremely important.




You also realise most studios use LW for rendering these days ?

Sure, with great results. And render has received (and will receive) a lot of attention so we can maintain this status.




And Maya for animating ?

Nothing new here. Maya is the main choice for a lot of animation studios.
This doesn't mean that LightWave can't be used to create great animations (and is in Layout that animation lives).




And that modo is the favoured modeling app ?
Doesn't that bother anybody ? We can't even show normal maps in modeler, as the OpenGL doesn't support it (which has also been updated
like 5 years ago).
When is modeler actually gonna be updated ?
I don't want NT to only to make LW work well with others, I want NT to deliver a product that leads the way.

We strongly think that data interchange is extremely important. This makes possible to push LW in any company pipeline.

Delivering a product that leads the way is exactly what we want to do.
Possibly not for free. ;)

lardbros
11-12-2011, 05:18 AM
You guys just need to buy into it... support the development, and make some cool sh*t! :D

Only messing... but it's all nice to play with! And VERY easy too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOYT6X0PYwM

A basic bullet setup, took me all of 5 minutes... seriously!!

colkai
11-12-2011, 05:23 AM
We strongly feel that Modeler needs a lot of cares. We've done several speed optimizations, and we're perfectly aware that working on a better definition of the tools and on the editing speed is something extremely important.

I appreciate you are now part of Newtek staff so of course, have a different slant on things as some others of us, but I'd say not that strongly, given the fact there seems to have been much languishing there in favour of Rendering and Layout.
Indeed, this is one of the factors that put off, for years I've heard "yes - modeller needs attention", but none is given.
Fine, Newtek know it needs work, they did 5 years ago, they have with every release.

Company line not withstanding, one has to appreciate, if such awareness has not provided any movement and development in 5 years, you could perchance, understand that some folks may not quite trust that such statements will resolve into any concrete action?

Not to take anything away from LW11's advancements in catching up with the competition feature-wise. It's been a long time coming and I'm sure will make many folks life easier. The company has a clear direction given Rob Powers background, it is logical to assume the product will be tailored to his vision and strengths.
As a past user of LW for over 15 years, I can at least appreciate this and hope ground is gained, even if I no longer can justify putting money down on faith.

Lewis
11-12-2011, 05:24 AM
We strongly feel that Modeler needs a lot of cares. We've done several speed optimizations, and we're perfectly aware that working on a better definition of the tools and mesh editing speed is something extremely important.


That's great to hear Lino, now you know what's next question - right :D?

WHEN ? When will users start to see that ;).

Thanks and congrats to nice event.

stevecullum
11-12-2011, 05:26 AM
Actually its the other way around. NT so far failed to deliver me a product that is up to the same standard a)as most other programs and b)what they announced LW to be.
So now I am petting them and pay them for making LW competitive ?

I don't get it, why bother wasting your time here, when so many other applications clearly satisfy your 3D requirements? If NT can't deliver what you need then shop around!

Lightwave still offers excellent value for money IMHO and I'm more than happy to support them...

lardbros
11-12-2011, 05:27 AM
As many of you are aware, Modeller has been in need of updating for years... and now I think the team are working on the replacement within Layout... BUT it's a huuuuge job!

I think by LW12 we will start to see many things in Layout... and yes, it may be too late for some, but it will be fine for many of us. The way current development is going, it will be the best implementation that could be done, and the way the team are being organised is the most productive they have ever been. I put this down to Rob P if I'm honest... but I'm sure Chuck and the others are all helping too! :D

It is quite an exciting time for Newtek!

lardbros
11-12-2011, 05:28 AM
The grass is ALWAYS greener! :D

I use max all day every day at work, and I STILL use Lightwave (sometimes at work)... why would I do that if 3dsmax is soooo good eh? :D

SBowie
11-12-2011, 05:39 AM
If LW would have been up to the standard in the first place, Pixologic would have probably had GoZ ready for it along with Maya, Max and XSI.The natural application of your argument is that - until such time as LW reaches feature parity with the combined strengths of all other mainstream 3D apps (setting aside the fact that it has it's own strengths) - all features that do not require payment of a licensing fee to a third-party should be free. Reading between the lines, you seem to contend that this (LW lagging behind) has been the case since, oh, around LW 6 or so. This being so (in your construct) LW upgrades should have been free for the last 10 years or so, and would continue to be free for some years ahead. Hmmmm. I wonder how that would work out.

Regardless of these things, you (and I, and everyone else here) is presented with a choice. It's not a complicated one, just two options: upgrade, or don't upgrade. No-one is forcing anyone to take either course. If you don't see sufficient value in the upgrade, you know what to do. If you're not sure, you can wait a little while, then try the free trial version before deciding. (If anyone has some situation that they think calls for special consideration, they can approach CS to discuss its merits.) There are no other options on the table, and endless debates are just a waste of pixels.

cresshead
11-12-2011, 05:49 AM
any new on the feature video on Lightwave 11?

SBowie
11-12-2011, 05:51 AM
any new on the feature video on Lightwave 11?I don't have any. As of supper time Friday, staff (and equally significantly, equipment that would have the full blown high quality capture files on it) wasn't back from LA, so I doubt anything will happen until early in the week.

kadri
11-12-2011, 06:13 AM
I am no programmer but to me it looks like the developers thought that they can evolve Layout but had to write modeler from the ground. So we see new things added to layout but have to wait for a brand new modeler(in layout or so) to be seen. Not sure , but given the time we didn't see anything new , i think that it will in v. 12 probably. Of course pure speculation but i am more layout centric and have not a problem with this . But new things wouldn't hurt of course.

Some bad decisions from the past will haunt Newtek a while still. (The forum and website is still a work in progress .Had 1+ pages and as i waited for them to go i saw 2+ ghost pages on the forum. Shame on you.)
Most pro and con things about Lightwave are all justified . But in general i think LW 11 is really a good sign if you balance all of it.
I bought Lightwave 10 knowing that it would be kind of a transition version. Because i know Newtek for so a long time . The price reduction was a strong hint if you ask me. So i have nothing to say. But others maybe doesn't saw this in the same way. I was going to buy HDinstance probably anyway. But i waited that maybe Newtek would put something along the same line in v11. Bingo :)

If it really works of course!

But for the waiters for modeler news . Yeah i can feel their pain ! And i am not sure how much GoZ would be a cure !

Dexter2999
11-12-2011, 07:29 AM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."


Please, please. please.

SBowie
11-12-2011, 07:31 AM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."I love it. :D

Lewis
11-12-2011, 07:45 AM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."


Please, please. please.

Hee cool idea (i really like it) and to make it truly honest and little more sarcastic it would be even more cool if it had "L" letter on that knob it and maybe another knob near to it with "M" letter which say "goes up to 9 and stays" so it would be like layout 11 and modeler 9 :D :D :p.

probiner
11-12-2011, 08:15 AM
so it would be like layout 11 and modeler 9 :D :D :p. Ohh the laughter... after the rage and cry... just before the *sigh*

cgisoul
11-12-2011, 09:00 AM
I hope my brutal honesty won't hurt anyone's feelings here, that's not the intention, and here comes my view. It's great NT is taking LW to another step, despite being way behind in comparison to other 3D packages, but here comes the reality (it maybe haven't hit anyone yet but...), have anyone asked the question, how many YOUNG lightwave users are here?

I have mentioned this already while back when I was Hardcore member, but here it goes.

There's a reason I ask this question of course and I'm sure you know what's coming next. How old are you folks? 40? 50? 60? I'm 35 by the way.
What's the point in having all this development, when one day there are no more Lightwave users because: 1st The old wavers are resting in peace and 2nd The young generation are not even using it.

Now you might ask how do I know this. Let's start where the chicken lay the eggs. How many Universities / Institutions are teaching Lightwave?
Link this idea with the number of LW users + the marketing + convincing time for someone to pick it up.

Don't get me wrong here, I respect everyone here, young and old, but I do want to steer up some connections and serious thoughts here for Newtek. I am not bashing NT, far from that. I just think if NT does want to spread its wings, better start from where the chicken lay its eggs and by saying that, Autodesk is doing an excellent job in promoting its package. To start, free licenses to Students. Now, can you do better?
(No t-shirts and membership cards please) :)

colkai
11-12-2011, 09:01 AM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."


Please, please. please.

That is not a bad idea at all, pretty much everyone would get the reference. :thumbsup:

OT: on the local news last night, speaking of 11, the was a kid who was 11 yrs old on the 11/11/11 and he was born in the 11th hour. Maybe he deserves a free version of LW11, seeing as that was 'born' on the same day. :p

lardbros
11-12-2011, 09:16 AM
Well, CGI Soul, I'm 30, but not sure if that's young or not round here?

Believe me the grass is always greener... I use multiple apps, and still drop back to LightWave for certain things at work... just makes sense to do so. You can't just use a single app for everything these days... and if you have no choice because you are working on your own, then LW is still a VERY good option!

cgisoul
11-12-2011, 09:27 AM
I hope my concern is being well taken as no matter how good your application is, to wide spread the seed, you need to start from the egg always. Pretty much bottom line.

zapper1998
11-12-2011, 09:32 AM
any documentation on the new things flocking, bullets, etc etc ???????????

OnlineRender
11-12-2011, 09:32 AM
I am yonger than 30 , Oliver is 18 another user showing solid progress and potential , I agree we had this discussion before on another form of media , I believe its like a football team you start at jr level IE colleges/schools and breed them from there, the fact that ad have free EDLics makes it even harder I have pleeded with NT to make there educational version free but I don't think they ever will .

Andy Meyer
11-12-2011, 09:56 AM
I am no programmer but to me it looks like the developers thought that they can evolve Layout but had to write modeler from the ground. So we see new things added to layout but have to wait for a brand new modeler(in layout or so) to be seen. Not sure , but given the time we didn't see anything new , i think that it will in v. 12 probably. Of course pure speculation but i am more layout centric and have not a problem with this . But new things wouldn't hurt of course.


thats what i think too. they upgrade layout with core tech and as soon as they are ready they will start to rebuild modeler inside layout with core tech.

so the next big step will be a unified app. i dont like it but very well understand that parametric and nodal modeling with stack/history has to wait until LW is unified.

Liber777
11-12-2011, 10:23 AM
?..Bullet physics is actually also a free tool, that NT implemented to charge money, which also is kinda shady...

Bullet is a set of libraries. NewTek still has to write the code to implement functionality in LightWave.

Emmanuel
11-12-2011, 10:59 AM
Regardless of these things, you (and I, and everyone else here) is presented with a choice. It's not a complicated one, just two options: upgrade, or don't upgrade. No-one is forcing anyone to take either course. If you don't see sufficient value in the upgrade, you know what to do. If you're not sure, you can wait a little while, then try the free trial version before deciding. (If anyone has some situation that they think calls for special consideration, they can approach CS to discuss its merits.) There are no other options on the table, and endless debates are just a waste of pixels.

So NT can obviously close down the forums, as a debate about NT's marketing and product policies are clearly useless, fruitless, and, as You say, "a waste of pixels".

Emmanuel
11-12-2011, 11:21 AM
I'd like to step in here and say that despite a few pipeline quirks, FiberFX in LightWave 10.1 is working quite well for us on TERRA NOVA. We've thrown FiberFX on pterasaurs (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolmus_pterosauri), pteranodons, ovosaurs (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Ovosaurus), Slashers (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Acceraptor), and Nykoraptors (http://terranova.wikia.com/wiki/Nykoraptor) so far, and it always looks great.

Wow, that looks real good ! I love how the hair reacts to the lighting !

The Dommo
11-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Erm, Pixologic anyone ? So far I have been nothing less than impressed, look at the cool plugins at their site You can download, the new additional brushes, the workflow enhancements, its no wonder everybody just is excited when Pixo announce a new release.

Ok fair example, but any other one I can think of you're either paying for upgrades or for subscriptions.

I actually have no clue how Pixologic stay in business at all with the amount of free updates and free full-point releases they do.

But any other is paid for (apart from Blender, which is part funded), and I'd have no problem paying for LW11

jasonwestmas
11-12-2011, 12:09 PM
I am well confused, my HardCORE membership halted on the 9th Nov '11, is this due to the pre-release of LW11? As a result an upgrade is now going to cost $495, I feel somewhat cheated, bullet physics should have been in '10!



Many of us were disappointed 6 months to a year ago.

Anyway, your upgrade price is locked in for the next 5 upgrades according to when you bought into LW core HC. If the price that you get after logging into the store is wrong in your mind, contact [email protected] Plus you were supposed to login to the store using the new user and pass code NT emailed you.

Lewis
11-12-2011, 12:44 PM
I actually have no clue how Pixologic stay in business at all with the amount of free updates and free full-point releases they do.


Easy, software development is so good/interesting and full of new features with each new update that they get "enough" NEW users which pay full price so they don't need to charge upgrades that often :).

prometheus
11-12-2011, 12:58 PM
Easy, software development is so good/interesting and full of new features with each new update that they get "enough" NEW users which pay full price so they don't need to charge upgrades that often :).

Indeed that seem true, so whats the difference between the pixologic team and the newtek team, the amount of staff working or skills of programmers or directional management of the product?

The pace of how fast and often pixologic produces new versions and new innovative tools seems to exceed that of what Newtek can handle today, I hope Newtek very soon can cross that barrier of slowness that seem to have been sitting on their shoulders for development in my point of view.

I guess you could in fairness mention all about the new direction and rewriting in lightwave as a little defense speech, but that doesnīt taste good anyway in a customers way of looking at the product and company when decisions are made and how things are reviewed.

Lightwave 11 looks nice and is shaping up I guess, but a little behind schedule since most of us expected this and even modeling and history stacks wich is still missing in core or lightwave 10 versions, so Newtek is a little behind schedule and is lacking a little of innovative, groundbreaking stuff.

when does it take that leap from very good and decent valuable software to wow factor??

Michael

jasonwestmas
11-12-2011, 01:27 PM
Pixo's support and user friendly videos have a lot to do with their success with or without the community support. Over here it seems to be the opposite.

SBowie
11-12-2011, 02:08 PM
So NT can obviously close down the forums, as a debate about NT's marketing and product policies are clearly useless, fruitless, and, as You say, "a waste of pixels".There are plenty of things to discuss constructively, and pros and cons about many aspects of different matters. I simply do not find your argument to be very well founded in reason. You can talk about it 'til the cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that your contention essentially states 'my software should be free until it's on a par with everyone else's feature list'. Good luck with that. This is not a reasonable expectation, and it stands zero chance of being adopted.

DBMiller
11-12-2011, 02:19 PM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."


Please, please. please.

Along the lines of advertising, why doesn't NewTek advertise during Terra Nova, or any other of the shows that feature LightWave work? That would be a sure way of getting the attention of new users.

Dexter2999
11-12-2011, 02:27 PM
Along the lines of advertising, why doesn't NewTek advertise during Terra Nova, or any other of the shows that feature LightWave work? That would be a sure way of getting the attention of new users.

National spots during prime time are rediculously expencive. To your point, I don't know of a single graphics program that advertises on TV. To be honest, I don't know why Microsoft bothers spending money on advertising. Are they afraid PC users will decide to all switch to Linux or BeOS? And Intel? What revenue is generated by those commercials? Do they think those commercials have any impact on which computers consumers purchase? Seems pointless to me.

Not that it directly promotes LW but DAVESchool does run spots on SciFi. Which indirectly promotes LW by teaching it to their students.

JEFFilm
11-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

Me too. My new usb dongle just arrived from newtek a couple of weeks ago for 10.1:cry:

tyrot
11-12-2011, 05:33 PM
a new update. hmm. I have skipped 10 .. i can jump in this one :)

- modeler needs JUST speed update LWCAD's victor does the rest. (when i move something other items can act as they do in Layout -turning into box state) -... So if 11 speedy enough i am sold there :)

- Bullet looks really cool and instancing lovely. Native instancing finally...

- If you guys deliver fully working UNITY export .... we are all set for a year:)

Ok what now ? Hmm character animation anyone?:) Any plans for Max's Biped-ish workflow?

By the way I am really happy because soon Octane Renderer will be released for Lightwave - there were few Normal issues .. I hope they fixed it in this release. If they did it ...and if we see Octane for Lightwave sky is the limit for all archvizer here.

For users who waited years for Core things can be very frustrating. I understand that.
I think for an user like me who is under 9.6 should pay the full upgrade price but for 10.1 it should be very less - could be even free.

cagey5
11-12-2011, 06:30 PM
I propose an advertisement of a Fender amplifier knob with the number 11 on it and the pitch line being "Lightwave, Now it goes to 11."


Please, please. please.

As an aside. Anybody that uses the BBC website will have noticed that the volume level for audio/video goes all the way up to 11. How cool is that? I mean it's like cranking it up to 10 but then it goes up to 11 ;)

probiner
11-12-2011, 07:39 PM
Easy, software development is so good/interesting and full of new features with each new update that they get "enough" NEW users which pay full price so they don't need to charge upgrades that often :).
Not just that but also uniqueness. Not so much these days, but still those updates also go along with ensuring that is still the case on many points.
LW is not alone and it's uniqueness was surpassed. CORE had uniqueness, even if bad too :p, no?


The Age stuff and college
I agree with you. Still, when you join a studio, you use what they use, no? Even if you have students making their own studio, I think the market drives the schools. (Let's not mention colleges, which are driven for God know what...)
Probably the only thing holding LW are the studios that still use it, hence these updates being somewhat driven to scene construction, preview and render output. I wonder what such studios use to model, animate, etc.



Forum Tips (http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/2011/08/03/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet/)
Brilliant!

cresshead
11-12-2011, 10:04 PM
re studio tools...i'd like something like this please!
[3dsmax script example]

camera controller from a xbox 360 pad.

http://youtu.be/Z3ACnzKGQNU

Greenlaw
11-12-2011, 10:16 PM
I wonder what such studios use to model, animate, etc.
We mainly use Modeler and sometimes Maya. I'll use Modo (personal license) for building more complicated stuff but typically fall back to Modeler once the object is being used in production (matter of convenience, especially with the new 'auto update' feature.)

I also like to use 3D Coat (again, personal license) but what I build in there is typically finished in Modeler.

This isn't to say I don't think Modeler could stand a lot improvements and modernization; only that it's still a very useful tool for us.

G.

Snosrap
11-12-2011, 10:31 PM
We mainly use Modeler and sometimes Maya. I'll use Modo (personal license) for building more complicated stuff but typically fall back to Modeler once the object is being used in production (matter of convenience, especially with the new 'auto update' feature.)

I also like to use 3D Coat (again, personal license) but what I build in there is typically finished in Modeler.

This isn't to say I don't think Modeler could stand a lot improvements and modernization; only that it's still a very useful tool for us.

G.

Pretty much same boat here. Modeler is very comfortable. Has tons of issues, but the basic way it functions really reasonates with me. I only occasionally open modo for UV mapping and a lot of times I get better UV's from Modeler with PLG tools. I liked the performance and some of thoughts NT had in the later Core releases, so I think we will eventually get the Modeler we all want.

zumwalt
11-12-2011, 11:23 PM
Look all I am saying is that when I called in and talked to sales prior to my purchase, I was reassured that the 2D component would in fact be part of LW 10 series, so I bought in knowing sales would not lie and at this point they did, I need the 2D where it will make my animation strip sheets from an animated object along with rendering out the scene to a png or animated bmp, just put those in 10.2 and call it a day.

Emmanuel
11-13-2011, 06:09 AM
when does it take that leap from very good and decent valuable software to wow factor??

Michael

Hehe, back then, when I saw the first preview of LW 6, I was like "OMG!!!"
UV tools, morph mixer, OpenGL, new moedeler tools, radiosity, Viper...I mean...hellooooo ? THAT was a brilliant update and more than worth the new version number, I purchased it as soon as it was released. I dunno what NT must do to merit such a great leap ahead again, but they should do it.

SBowie
11-13-2011, 06:09 AM
I was reassured that the 2D component would in fact be part of LW 10 series ....I am by no means a Lw heavyweight, but I have some difficulty understanding what you're talking about. What "2D component" is missing from LW?


I need the 2D where it will make my animation strip sheets from an animated object along with rendering out the scene to a png or animated bmp, just put those in 10.2 and call it a day.As to the latter point, you can certainly render out anything you create as a PNG (or other file type) sequence, in pretty much any version of LW. On the first point, I'm not sure what you mean by "animation strip sheets". Are you talking about some sort of contact sheet, or storyboard, or something else?

Emmanuel
11-13-2011, 06:15 AM
Yeah, I could swear the ability to save anim strips (sprite sheets) was added to LW in 9.x. or 10.x ! Its in there ! AFAIK You can specify columns/rows etc.

SBowie
11-13-2011, 06:17 AM
I dunno what NT must do to merit such a great leap ahead again, but they should do it.The jump from 9.6 to 10, and later 10.1 didn't impress everyone equally. Some felt it justified an integer upgrade, others didn't. OK, I get that, I don't know how anyone can think there isn't enough brand new ability in 11 to make the same claim though. This is an awesome upgrade.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-13-2011, 06:54 AM
This is an awesome upgrade.

It really is. Relative to Autodesk upgrades, the Lightwave upgrades are incredibly cost effective. Plus, Lightwave includes a native interactive renderer that let's you preview everything in realtime. There is just no comparison in terms of bang for the buck. The only software that comes close IMO is Modo, which I happily use alongside Lightwave and which is presently far from a complete solution.

Dexter2999
11-13-2011, 07:03 AM
I don't know how anyone can think there isn't enough brand new ability in 11 to make the same claim though. This is an awesome upgrade.

I think it is because they are seeing the features in 11 that were promised in CORE and some are confusing that with being promised in 10. Others see what they paid for in CORE but didn't get and now think they should get it for free in LW.

There seems an inability to connect that CORE is dead. The refund/discount process was the apology. Spill your tears and move on...but it's done. Over.

But, the technology and research is being ported over into LW. This is a new deal.

Some others, well, they just don't like the idea of spending twice in one year for upgrades. I feel for some people and hope they can strike a deal with CS. But for people who paid for the upgrade to 10 in January and got to use VPR, and saw benefit from the Color Space workflow that's what they paid for!

LW10 was an odd release. It had some cool stuff for the pro's with the sterescopic cameras. The color space stuff was interesting but I personally didn't have a use for it. VPR was the only big deal for me because I didn't already have FPrime for my seat that I was upgrading. That and the price guarantee for the next five versions.

I think many people stuck with 10 instead of refunds because of the price guarantee and VPR. But now they are having different thoughts. They are taking a short term view of the purchase plan instead of a long view. Saying they should have skipped 10 and bought 11 and saved money. Maybe, but when they go to buy 12 they would have spent more money because they wouldn't have the savings. They would have paid full price for 11 and 12. (Probably around $200 more than people locked in with 10, 11, and 12.) And they seem to take VPR and color space for granted not giving a thought to the utility that it provided in the year they had it. It is easy to take for granted the things we have, it seems to be human nature.

I swear it's almost like Newtek needs to find a sweet spot in a major release every other year so people don't feel like they are shelling out cash on a regular basis or waiting forever for updates.

DBMiller
11-13-2011, 07:24 AM
http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/2011/08/03/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet/
Brilliant!

It really does make me sad when I see some of myself in that...but it is funny never the less!.:thumbsup:

lino.grandi
11-13-2011, 10:46 AM
Thanks Oliver.

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 10:59 AM
Good day Lino!

Good to see you! Is there a complete feature list of 11??

I personally am hoping for improved Open Gl performance as well as (hopefully) instancing. I do appreciate the developments in 10 but can understand the issues some were having with it though. We still animate heavily in LW but now do most of our stills in Modo. LW and Modo compliment each other very well and support each others weaknesses nicely. We are excited by the development of both apps and look forward to upgrading to both as well. Under the circumstances the way the two work together they present a great example of symbiosis. Thanks and looking forward to 11 ... :thumbsup:

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 11:12 AM
Ooops sorry Lino, never mind, I found it! Yes! native Instancing very cool! I really like Modo's instancing system so it will be really nice to see how it stacks up. I also like the way the liner workflow is developing in LW. The new dynamics system looks promising as well. I also like the adherence to the LW look and feel but with newer capabilities. Go Z after having had GoZ for sometime I can tell you when it works, it's nice. The print rez utility is a nice add on and believe me if it works as advertised will really please a lot fo folks... it's the little things I suppose.

The enhancements in Modeler should be welcome to those who model in LW.... Till we see the completed Modeller, modelling will be done in Modo.

Keep up the great work guys!

COBRASoft
11-13-2011, 12:07 PM
Don't forget Lino told on this forum we haven't seen everything from LW 11 yet. There is more to come, but it is to early to show it. I'm really wondering what that will be...

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 12:11 PM
Don't forget Lino told on this forum we haven't seen everything from LW 11 yet. There is more to come, but it is to early to show it. I'm really wondering what that will be...

Fair enough, Looking forward to it! Wow me!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 12:24 PM
I think it is because they are seeing the features in 11 that were promised in CORE and some are confusing that with being promised in 10. Others see what they paid for in CORE but didn't get and now think they should get it for free in LW.

There seems an inability to connect that CORE is dead. The refund/discount process was the apology. Spill your tears and move on...but it's done. Over.

But, the technology and research is being ported over into LW. This is a new deal.

Some others, well, they just don't like the idea of spending twice in one year for upgrades. I feel for some people and hope they can strike a deal with CS. But for people who paid for the upgrade to 10 in January and got to use VPR, and saw benefit from the Color Space workflow that's what they paid for!

LW10 was an odd release. It had some cool stuff for the pro's with the sterescopic cameras. The color space stuff was interesting but I personally didn't have a use for it. VPR was the only big deal for me because I didn't already have FPrime for my seat that I was upgrading. That and the price guarantee for the next five versions.

I think many people stuck with 10 instead of refunds because of the price guarantee and VPR. But now they are having different thoughts. They are taking a short term view of the purchase plan instead of a long view. Saying they should have skipped 10 and bought 11 and saved money. Maybe, but when they go to buy 12 they would have spent more money because they wouldn't have the savings. They would have paid full price for 11 and 12. (Probably around $200 more than people locked in with 10, 11, and 12.) And they seem to take VPR and color space for granted not giving a thought to the utility that it provided in the year they had it. It is easy to take for granted the things we have, it seems to be human nature.

I swear it's almost like Newtek needs to find a sweet spot in a major release every other year so people don't feel like they are shelling out cash on a regular basis or waiting forever for updates.

Perhaps, I invested early and am looking forward to what NT will offer. If they fall short, well I blame myself, not NT. However, as you pointed out there ARE some great features that have come about. I am not bitter about the Modeller I have a top notch modeller so that means I can wait till if and or when NT delivers one and if by some chance it falls short, well no worries mateys I have a solid solution in place. LW, as far as I am concerned is a top notch animation tool and is our choice. The possibility of instancing in LW 11 just might be the reason we will stay with LW as opposed to Modo if it compares in efficiency in the realm of animation. I must confess despite what efficiency the Mod animation system might offer. I still prefer LW's approach. Some of that of course is familiarity with LW as well as using solutions that are tried and true. We are in fact though running tests in Modo to see just how it stacks up and if the new tools in Modo perform well we may see a sharing of the animation mantle around here. It is NOT a matter of LW vs Modo it is about the using the tool best suited for the job at hand.

I am truly hopeful that NT will deliver a solid well rounded product and still have the faith but we do have a contingency plan in place because we also have to maintain an objective perspective on this...

fazi69
11-13-2011, 12:28 PM
It is step in right direction for sure. I can only complain that like many previous updates, eleven is limited only to layout.

Dexter2999
11-13-2011, 12:32 PM
I just hope that my earlier post isn't misunderstood. I am positive on LW 11 and will be buying in as soon as I take care of some other obligations.

The post was more about saying I understand why some people are unhappy. I understand them, but I don't agree with them.

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 12:41 PM
It is step in right direction for sure. I can only complain that like many previous updates, eleven is limited only to layout.

Under the circumstances that makes sense Remember, Modeller was a separate application written at a separate time by two separate people and never had the intention of being able to interact with each other. The hack that was the hub was the means of communicating. So under the circumstances a complete re write is most definitely in order it will however, if done right will be a force to be reckoned with, we will just have to be patient... I feel it will be worth the wait. Til then there are other solid solutions in place.:D

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 12:42 PM
I just hope that my earlier post isn't misunderstood. I am positive on LW 11 and will be buying in as soon as I take care of some other obligations.

The post was more about saying I understand why some people are unhappy. I understand them, but I don't agree with them.

Understood, Understanding the issue is the first step in finding positive solution...:thumbsup:

wesleycorgi
11-13-2011, 01:44 PM
I'm enjoy working with the pre-release. I can't wait to see tutes and feature vids come out though. I'm not very good at experimenting in LW and very weak with nodes.

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 02:02 PM
Easy, software development is so good/interesting and full of new features with each new update that they get "enough" NEW users which pay full price so they don't need to charge upgrades that often :).

Totally agree! (Hey Lewis!) These guys have a very interesting though amazing approach and they just get better and better and better. Well on their way to fast becoming an industry standard in their areas of concern...

Good to see you still here :thumbsup::D

eagleeyed
11-13-2011, 03:11 PM
I might as well put my personal view in aswell.

Sure, have been a bit battered in my confidence with NewTek with the Core events, that will probably haunt them for years to come. However, LightWave 11 is a very nice step in the right direction.

I have all intentions on purchasing LW eleven, however with money being quite tight I am going to hold off until I know everything promoted on the feature list is delivered, see what happens with Bullet (if it gets cloth added before gold release etc).

I am really happy the render pass manager has been added though, have been trying to justify purchasing one for a while so to have a native version is brilliant.

Never had a use for instancing, however with it now being native am quite eager to give that a go.

MacDoggie
11-13-2011, 03:58 PM
I might as well put my personal view in aswell.

Sure, have been a bit battered in my confidence with NewTek with the Core events, that will probably haunt them for years to come. However, LightWave 11 is a very nice step in the right direction.

I have all intentions on purchasing LW eleven, however with money being quite tight I am going to hold off until I know everything promoted on the feature list is delivered, see what happens with Bullet (if it gets cloth added before gold release etc).

I am really happy the render pass manager has been added though, have been trying to justify purchasing one for a while so to have a native version is brilliant.

Never had a use for instancing, however with it now being native am quite eager to give that a go.


A sound attitude indeed. A quality render pass manager is cetianly worth something no doubt and if done right would definitely have my vote! As to instancing (if done right)... You're going to Love it! :D:D

speismonqui
11-13-2011, 05:05 PM
first of all, Congratulations Newtek! now we're seeing the real Lightwave with Core Technology that you promise a while ago. Lightwave 11 looks very cool and heading in the right direction. I must say I'm very impressed with the upcoming features, I was about to give up on GoZ for instance, now we got it. So thank you and keep it up, you're doing an amazing job out there.

One thing I keep thinking and no one seems to talk about in this thread... what's up with Steve and iBounce now that we have integrated bullets? HD and DP instance will become irrelevant with integrated instances right? Don't get me wrong, as I said before I love LW11 new features, but I feel huge appreciation for guys like Dennis, Steve, etc, and even worley's FPrime for all the great things we've done thanks to all of them.

So I just want to say to these guys THANK YOU! for the effort, for keeping LW competitive and for being great to this community. LW11 looks great and you're all a part of this.

Cheers!

jasonwestmas
11-13-2011, 05:14 PM
first of all, Congratulations Newtek! now we're seeing the real Lightwave with Core Technology that you promise a while ago. Lightwave 11 looks very cool and heading in the right direction. I must say I'm very impressed with the upcoming features, I was about to give up on GoZ for instance, now we got it. So thank you and keep it up, you're doing an amazing job out there.

One thing I keep thinking and no one seems to talk about in this thread... what's up with Steve and iBounce now that we have integrated bullets? HD and DP instance will become irrelevant with integrated instances right? Don't get me wrong, as I said before I love LW11 new features, but I feel huge appreciation for guys like Dennis, Steve, etc, and even worley's FPrime for all the great things we've done thanks to all of them.

So I just want to say to these guys THANK YOU! for the effort, for keeping LW competitive and for being great to this community. LW11 looks great and you're all a part of this.

Cheers!

"starting to see core technology" yes, long way to go.

Third party options tend to hold features and strengths that the native stuff sometimes doesn't get to for a long while if ever. It's rare that I totally dismiss a 3rd party solution just because something else might do some things similar. Both are appreciated because natively you have more stability in your software package and third party development is a great place to explore ideas for the customers/community and get some solid features a lot earlier.

Willax
11-13-2011, 05:20 PM
I started with LW when it was bundled with the Amiga toaster years ago. At that time I was a hobbyist. Eventually I came to use it more in my video production business and it was a tremendous access. To be honest, I'm not very talented artistically, but LW has allowed me to do things I could not otherwise do because of this limited talent. I have since retired and am involved back in hobbyist mode doing stuff with independent film and hope to continue using LW in this process. I have read 'most' of the posts in this forum and respect the opinions presented by most of you. I also understand the changing of technology and business over the years and think Newtek has done it's best in light of the many changes it has undergone to provide what they felt was the best for their customer base, which has indeed changed over the years. I'm reminded of the cliche' about not being able to please all of the people all of the time and this is certainly the case here. Hopefully, we'll all get back to what we love to do - modelling, animating, and sharing these things with the world.
Willax

jasonwestmas
11-13-2011, 05:32 PM
I started with LW when it was bundled with the Amiga toaster years ago. At that time I was a hobbyist. Eventually I came to use it more in my video production business and it was a tremendous access. To be honest, I'm not very talented artistically, but LW has allowed me to do things I could not otherwise do because of this limited talent. I have since retired and am involved back in hobbyist mode doing stuff with independent film and hope to continue using LW in this process. I have read 'most' of the posts in this forum and respect the opinions presented by most of you. I also understand the changing of technology and business over the years and think Newtek has done it's best in light of the many changes it has undergone to provide what they felt was the best for their customer base, which has indeed changed over the years. I'm reminded of the cliche' about not being able to please all of the people all of the time and this is certainly the case here. Hopefully, we'll all get back to what we love to do - modelling, animating, and sharing these things with the world.
Willax

Certainly, some people get lost in the tools and forget what their goals are. Suddenly, the idea that package x has something that package y doesn't. Or constantly reminding newtek that they didn't give me what I think I deserve. Then suddenly it's the tools and not the project(s) that have somehow become more important. I say just use what you can use to get the job done. If that means just using Lightwave x.x only without any 3rd party help, then that's ok too.

Rayek
11-13-2011, 11:11 PM
Cinema 4D has implemented Bullet phsyics and charged for the upgrade. 3D Studio Max has a work in progress 3rd party implementation that will cost. Softimage has Bullet physics via Exocortex at 499 dollars.
:)

Well, Blender has had full (interactive real-time) bullet support for years - including cloth. And don't forget the boids (flocking), python, fluids, full nodal compositing, and smoke! All 'free'... :devil:
And I shudder at the thought were it will be in 6 months, what with the new visual effects focused open source movie project.

I do like the new LW11 feature set, especially instancing and FiberFX. I am still on 9.6, but have a combined approach in my workflow with both Blender and Lightwave. Though, I cannot shake the feeling that, especially after last week seeing the storm of very useful new features being built into the trunk of Blender, that Newtek is playing some catchup at the moment, with ALL the main players in the 3d market. Which is not necessarily a bad situation - Newtek devs should be able enough to implement similar features in a better way in LW than the competition.

Whether I'll jump into updating to v11 remains to be seen, depending on the final version. Still, it's reassuring to see Newtek's resolve in improving LW.

*edit* after watching the instancing demonstration: love it!

jasonwestmas
11-14-2011, 06:52 AM
I'm pretty sure LW has some nice stuff that blender doesn't or at least is supported better than blender and vice versa. Not sure why the need to do a comparison.

abdelkarim
11-14-2011, 07:00 AM
i think its great new version of lightwave. if u have matter with your money go work with crape 3d software like 3dsmax and Vray ; render time so long just for preview .

lightwave elven its best Ever 3d package with some news features like instancing fasnt VPr . unity for game . buffer preset . Shadow reflection catcher . bullette what u when its great . and many others . we proud with newtek and Lw. and some hardware ps3 u can use it like Vcam . its very progressive think in small time. GReat Rob powers :D

Davewriter
11-14-2011, 08:03 PM
Just wanted to say a huge THANKS!! to all of the NT crew for an outstanding event. The facility was beautiful... the food was more than a bit tasty... and the entertainment was, well different - all in a good way.
A ton of time, effort and $$$ went into it and it all glowed.
And it is difficult to spend more than about three minutes with Rob without seeing how strongly he believes in LW and wants to push it forward.
The same follows with the rest of the staff. A bit of one on one time with any of them will show you how in tune they are with the product and how they mean to improve it.
My wife and I had a great time - felt stoked when we left - and I've plunked down
Now to play!!

THANKS! and Congrats!

Chuck
11-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Wait a minute....i just bought a upgrade to version 10.1...now only 3 months later they are offering version 11 for more money than my upgrade only 3 months ago..comeon...

Nice features or not, these feature were supposed to be in the last upgrade.

Now either this is a cheap upgrade or free for those of us that just bought our upgrades or its time to go elsewhere...i have used lightwave since the amiga days, and throughout NEWTEKS CORE issues have stayed with them .

Time to RETHINK your upgrade options...very dissapointed.

gar

If you paid for v10.1 then you must have been upgrading from v9.6 or an earlier version? If you had purchased HardCORE v10.1 would not have cost you anything additional. This means you purchased at the end of a more than two-year cycle, after some number of years on your earlier version. And the contents of 10.1 were a known entity for you when you purchased. Apologies if I am misunderstanding your situation.

achrystie
11-15-2011, 05:32 AM
Here's why I won't be upgrading.

For all the nice nice features that get advertised, Lightwave 9.6, 10, and now 11 still don't do the "simple stuff" as well as they should, or at all, given the price tag. For every hot VPR feature (which I have no real use for when making game models), there are hundreds of "half assed" modeling tools and poorly implemented/non existent things.

For my workflow I need:

Efficient modeling tools that work quickly and are consolidated into the least number of button clicks as possible, available in the same place I will assemble the scene and animate characters.
Quick and easy to use UV unwrapping and packing. (This got better in 10, yay, but hardly a $400 feature)
Basic texture painting, preferably in the 3D viewport.
Some simple tools to move mass around/sculpt (to some extent at least) in the same 3D viewport I will animate in.
Rigging, preferably autorigging, with weight painting in the same viewport/app as the rig so it can be adjusted on the fly.
Simple IK setup. AutoIK options.
Timeline/NLA/DopeSheet
The ability to bake decent lightmaps and passes directly to the UV's.
Easy export to my engine of choice and/or a native implementation.
Bonus: Physics/Dynamics that can be baked to a mesh animation.

While some of this is a step forward for Lightwave in the last release, and in this new release, some of it still doesn't exist in the program, or still requires a plugin, or has been there for a while and implemented poorly.
Meanwhile ALL of that exists in Blender, and more, for free.

So why would I pay $695 to upgrade?
I have yet to figure that out.
I mean I'd "like" to upgrade, to keep current, and have the option to jump to Lightwave if I need to make a cut scene or get inspired to work on a short film, but I can't justify the pricing. This is particularly true now that the pricing has gone up almost "arbitrarily", when that price increase announced was supposed to on the backs of releasing the new CORE hotness. CORE went away, the new pricing model didn't, and now the upgrade cycles are shorter with less features added as point upgrades.

No thanks.

lardbros
11-15-2011, 05:56 AM
Fair enough... everyone is entitled to their view, but it's funny how despite having Mudbox, 3dCoat, and 3ds max at my desposal, I STILL prefer to paint my textures in Photoshop rather than in the viewport... I'm happy to do this in the future too... makes no odds.

UV-ing in modeller is definitely something that needs work... a lot of work, but by LW12 i think all of our modelling woes might be over...

Save your money and wait for LW12... :D

colkai
11-15-2011, 05:56 AM
achrystie:
Instead of upgrading, for what you're after, you may be better investing in LWCAD4.
Viktor is consolidating tools, adding UVMapping and other refinements so sounds like you'd get use out of it. (Assuming of course you haven't already bought it ;) ).

Lewis
11-15-2011, 06:19 AM
UV-ing in modeller is definitely something that needs work... a lot of work, but by LW12 i think all of our modelling woes might be over...


And you are basing that Estimate (on modeling in 12) on what facts (or track record) ?

lardbros
11-15-2011, 06:22 AM
No facts, or track record... I said 'woes might be over'. Just a guess... come on, just let me have a guess Lewis!!! :D

Lewis
11-15-2011, 06:50 AM
No facts, or track record... I said 'woes might be over'. Just a guess... come on, just let me have a guess Lewis!!! :D

Well i asked 'coz maybe you have some info we don't, I guess n(o)t :).

As for "might be" well we are listening that since LW9.2 so i wouldn't be so optimistic for 12 modeling and then be disappointed again, so let's keep optimism in reality (managing expectations :D?) for now and since this is LW11 topic and users are describing what they need from it which isn't there so far (modeling upgrade) it's not really sensible or fair to tell them "well it might be in 12" and get their hopes high to convince them to buy 11 just 'coz they MIGHT get what they need in 12 ;).

Emmanuel
11-15-2011, 07:04 AM
Yeah, there must be some MAJOR obstacle in the codebase that prevents enhancements of modeler, like its hit a wall or something.
I just hope they overcome this, as I don't wanna LW become a renderer only ! There is better tools for UV mapping, better tools for modeling, better tools for animation, and it doesnt do 3d painting or sculpting or extraordinary particle effects, so at the moment its Jack of all trades...and master of none.

cagey5
11-15-2011, 07:17 AM
I suspect Modeler is in fine fettle behind the scenes but we won't see the improvements until they get it integrated into Layout. I'm thinking/hoping LW 12 will be the reveal for that next step.

lardbros
11-15-2011, 07:59 AM
Well i asked 'coz maybe you have some info we don't, I guess n(o)t :).

As for "might be" well we are listening that since LW9.2 so i wouldn't be so optimistic for 12 modeling and then be disappointed again, so let's keep optimism in reality (managing expectations :D?) for now and since this is LW11 topic and users are describing what they need from it which isn't there so far (modeling upgrade) it's not really sensible or fair to tell them "well it might be in 12" and get their hopes high to convince them to buy 11 just 'coz they MIGHT get what they need in 12 ;).

Fair enough... I'll keep quiet... :D LW9.2 was a very different beast though... and different people were in charge. Rob is heading up a very strong team, who appear to be working as a brilliant unit! But still... I'll keep my mouth shut in regard to any future offerings Newtek has! :D

SBowie
11-15-2011, 08:05 AM
Yeah, there must be some MAJOR obstacle in the codebase that prevents enhancements of modeler, like its hit a wall or something.The wall was always there, and I've long said that it would (imho) likely take longer to get over it than to achieve the sort of thing we're seeing already in LW11. That doesn't mean it's an insurmountable wall, or that no-one cares, or that work isn't in progress.

Andy Meyer
11-15-2011, 08:19 AM
Yeah, there must be some MAJOR obstacle in the codebase that prevents enhancements of modeler, like its hit a wall or something.

i dont think they will enhance modeler. imho they will build new modeling tools inside layout with core tech. this smells like alota work. i think most work will be under the hood, the modeling tools will be made at the very end. i dont like it but very well understand that this kind of stuff takes some time.

SBowie
11-15-2011, 08:24 AM
imho they will build new modeling tools inside layout with core tech.In case it wasn't clear in my previous post, this is my expectation too. I wasn't referring to changes in "modeler", but as respects "modeling".

Larry_g1s
11-15-2011, 09:07 AM
If you paid for v10.1 then you must have been upgrading from v9.6 or an earlier version? If you had purchased HardCORE v10.1 would not have cost you anything additional. This means you purchased at the end of a more than two-year cycle, after some number of years on your earlier version. And the contents of 10.1 were a known entity for you when you purchased. Apologies if I am misunderstanding your situation.Just so everyone is on the same page, as it pertains to this guys situation and his recent upgrade of 10.1, where are you getting "more then two-year cycle" since 10.0 was announced at Siggraph 2010 and 10.1 was at this years Siggraph?

Chuck
11-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Just so everyone is on the same page, as it pertains to this guys situation and his recent upgrade of 10.1, where are you getting "more then two-year cycle" since 10.0 was announced at Siggraph 2010 and 10.1 was at this years Siggraph?

Same page is always a good place to be! :)

I'm getting the two-year cycle from the amount of time since 9.6 released, and that actually went into developing LightWave v10.0/10.1 - work on Layout, Modeler, and the CORE technologies was in progress when CORE was announced just after the v9.6 release; it did not begin just when the v10.0 designation for the product release was announced at SIGGRAPH.

Larry_g1s
11-15-2011, 12:50 PM
Same page is always a good place to be! :)

I'm getting the two-year cycle from the amount of time since 9.6 released, and that actually went into developing LightWave v10.0/10.1 - work on Layout, Modeler, and the CORE technologies was in progress when CORE was announced just after the v9.6 release; it did not begin just when the v10.0 designation for the product release was announced at SIGGRAPH.Gotcha. But as it pertains to this gentlemen and anyone else who just recently purchased v10.1 from previous LW version, they've only had the decision to upgrade to v10.1 since Siggraph of this year (i.e. a couple months ago). I think that is the frustration for those like him who are now being asked to pay again after only a couple of months (not years), for what is actually a solid upgrade (i.e. as it compares to the v10 "series").

Chuck
11-15-2011, 01:32 PM
Gotcha. But as it pertains to this gentlemen and anyone else who just recently purchased v10.1 from previous LW version, they've only had the decision to upgrade to v10.1 since Siggraph of this year (i.e. a couple months ago). I think that is the frustration for those like him who are now being asked to pay again after only a couple of months (not years), for what is actually a solid upgrade (i.e. as it compares to the v10 "series").

And as in the past, we are providing a 30-day grace period for recent full seat and upgrade purchasers. This is something that happens with every new paid release - there are always folks who have purchased late in the previous cycle, and often based on the last release of a cycle. That does end up putting the purchase close to the next paid update release, and we have tried our best to be reasonable with a grace period.

Larry_g1s
11-15-2011, 01:43 PM
And as in the past, we are providing a 30-day grace period for recent full seat and upgrade purchasers. This is something that happens with every new paid release - there are always folks who have purchased late in the previous cycle, and often based on the last release of a cycle. That does end up putting the purchase close to the next paid update release, and we have tried our best to be reasonable with a grace period.Again, that's understandable. But "in the past" cycles went past a .1 release. So purchasing/upgrading only a couple of months back for 10.1 would not have seemed late based upon previous cycle.

This is obviously your guy's call, and not trying to stir the pot. I'm just saying that none of this has been "normal", so to treat very recent purchases of a version (i.e. v10) that is no where near as feature rich as normal LW release, as "normal" is frustrating for users.

But I guess he and others should have thought of that first when they thought v10.1 was worth the purchase.

Chuck
11-15-2011, 02:42 PM
Again, that's understandable. But "in the past" cycles went past a .1 release. So purchasing/upgrading only a couple of months back for 10.1 would not have seemed late based upon previous cycle.

This is obviously your guy's call, and not trying to stir the pot. I'm just saying that none of this has been "normal", so to treat very recent purchases of a version (i.e. v10) that is no where near as feature rich as normal LW release, as "normal" is frustrating for users.

But I guess he and others should have thought of that first when they thought v10.1 was worth the purchase.

We spent a lot of wordage communicating that folks should base decisions strictly on 10.1, especially in HC, and that we needed to change our business model for the product. More than ever we need to aggressively develop LightWave, and that's a matter of having the appropriate resources to do so.

Even with a new business model, LightWave will remain the best bargain among the commercial 3D products. And all the more so as we can apply increasing resources to the development of the product across the range of application development, content development, and documentation.

All of that said, anyone who feels that they are due some form of adjustment should certainly contact our Customer Support staff to pursue that. Customer Support and Management will review any requests on a case by case basis.

Larry_g1s
11-15-2011, 02:45 PM
We spent a lot of wordage communicating that folks should base decisions strictly on 10.1, especially in HC, and that we needed to change our business model for the product. More than ever we need to aggressively develop LightWave, and that's a matter of having the appropriate resources to do so. Agreed. Which is why I said, he and others should have thought of that first when they thought v10.1 was worth the purchase.

Good luck guys.

Gar
11-15-2011, 02:54 PM
Hello Chuck,

thanks for replying. I am not part of HARDCORE. To tell you the truth , after hearing the nightmares of others, can you blame me for not going that route.

Either way, i purchased a 10.1 a couple of months ago, upgrading from 9.6. CS could have let me know something was going to happen soon. Then i would have held off upgrading and bought 11.

Instead, i bought 10.1 for 495, now the 11 upgrade is 695.

If i had stuck with 9.6 and waited for 11, it would have cost just 695.

This is my issue, i am now out 495 for just a few months of owning 10.1

So a slightly better upgrade price would be appreciated.

I think the upgrade price of 695 is reasonable, if i had not just bought 10.1.

Either way , there seems to be alot of point of views on this. But it would seem more are in my boat than NEWTEKS. Would be GREAT if they could contact me back after waiting since friday morning. Then I could at least talk to them about this and perhaps come to some compromise. But i have heard others not getting anywhere.

I am dissapointed with NEWTEK. From lack of communication, HARDCORE issues and now this.

Gar




If you paid for v10.1 then you must have been upgrading from v9.6 or an earlier version? If you had purchased HardCORE v10.1 would not have cost you anything additional. This means you purchased at the end of a more than two-year cycle, after some number of years on your earlier version. And the contents of 10.1 were a known entity for you when you purchased. Apologies if I am misunderstanding your situation.

Surrealist.
11-15-2011, 03:05 PM
I hate to say this. But I am going to say I am in favor of Netwek being financially viable with LightWave, with some provisions and a look at reality, which I will cover from my view and experience.

A few years ago just before CORE started, there was considerable debate over the future of LightWave. All of us that were there remember. One of the main issues was the fiscal reality of creating a new app. And as usual there was the comparison to Audodesk who "has the resources" etc...

But there was this reality no one wanted to seem to discuss. And that is that for LightWave to get the development it needed that was going to take money and it was going to mean that we were going to be spending more to see more product.

To be fair to Audodesk, they have overall superior products. But at a price tag.

However they are upgrading consistently each year and there is the subscription advantage pack. So when you buy in to one of these products you know what you are getting into. But if your production requires it, that is the cost.

ICE modeling is absolutely amazing. And even with LightWave bullet and the fracture plugin, these things are no match for something as robust and powerful as ICE.

I would love to see this kind of development go into LightWave. That is hopeful, but realistic, probably not. I'll likely be looking at a purchase of Softimage up the line.

Because there is no way on earth Newtek is going to be able to pulll something together fast enough to compete with that. LightWave will continue to be a cost effective, user-friendly application that fits into pipelines and offer some great tools and workflow.

When CORE came out I was in favor of this transition but felt as if the projected time line was unrealistic at best. I knew it was going to take time and money. But I felt as if Newtek had lost sight of the estimated effort and was not at all surprised to find that core was abandoned as a project.

It should not have been abandoned! It should have been started with a better estimate of effort and then continued.

But if this new direction is the way they see it can be realistically accomplished, then I support that decision.

So my point is this. If LightWave is going to make it through this transition, it is going to take money and time. And that is going to mean more upgrades more often and it means if we want to stick with it, it is going to cost us money.

They alternative is to spend $3,000 - 7,000 on an initial investment and add to that the cost of yearly upgrades.

What LightWave offers currently at its cost is extremely inexpensive. But again you get what you pay for.

Now here is where the reality comes in and NewTek I hope you take this to heart.

This is NOT a normal cycle.

It took 6 years to get from LightWave 8 to LightWave 10. That is an average of 2 years per major upgrade.

You have just thrown a major curve at everyone. Even me. I called in to upgrade to LightWave 10.1 on 11/08/2011 and I asked specifically. "Is LightWave 11 planned to release very soon? Because if so, I'll wait." The answer was there was NO planned release date for LW 11. This person was not lying. They honestly did not know. Fair enough. No point in going into all of that. (And I am covered under the 30 day free upgrade to 11 anyways).

So based on the track record of releases and even if they stepped it up, I'd be looking at an upgrade to 11 sometime mid 2012, if I was lucky. But not likely till later. So I bought my upgrade to 10.1.

My license arrived the next day, 11/09/2011 and the day after that 11 prerelease was announced with a scheduled release of Q4. At first I misread this, and figured they mean next year because this is Q4!

I mean this is a major major curve to throw at the community.

Major!

Think about it. 2 years per major release and you jump from that to some people are having to upgrade twice within a year. Even a jump to 1 year is 2 times as fast!

And we are talking about regular LightWave costumers. CORE members have nothing to do with it.

What CORE does have to do with it is that you have all of this development you are able to port over to these releases. And so this accelerates things quite a bit I would think.

So this is something to think about.

I support LightWave getting development and resources to do that.

But at this point in the game you have to be sensitive and sympathetic to negative responses from costumers over the cost of upgrades. I think the time ranges are a little unrealistic. And they are definitely not normal.

Now all that being said, for the sake of the future of LightWave I really hope it does become the norm.

But do realize that this point in the game it is a bit of a curve.

I can't even begin to suggest any line of action, price breaks, or anything like that. That would be ridiculous. I don't work for NT.

But all I am saying is to step back and at least be aware of the statistics. This is not normal. It is a transition I hope to a new norm, but it is a transition. And in that transition there are bound to be flareups.

This is my feedback on the situation.

jasonwestmas
11-15-2011, 03:09 PM
One man's point of view: What isn't normal is the amount of features that actually do work well for a lot of projects for half the price. Plus the integration and software bridge/ talky talk that I get via fbx and mdd and xml now. So I don't have to use Lightwave solo anymore. Which saves me even more money. So software wise I felt this way all through the 9 series. I'm actually thinking I robbed NT after using LW 10 for $395. Granted I didn't always feel this way and I am glad they do give me a break financially. And this is all subjective stuff anyway.

Surrealist.
11-15-2011, 03:16 PM
We spent a lot of wordage communicating that folks should base decisions strictly on 10.1, especially in HC, and that we needed to change our business model for the product. More than ever we need to aggressively develop LightWave, and that's a matter of having the appropriate resources to do so.

Even with a new business model, LightWave will remain the best bargain among the commercial 3D products. And all the more so as we can apply increasing resources to the development or the product across the range of application development, content development, and documentation.

All of that said, anyone who feels that they are due some form of adjustment should certainly contact our Customer Support staff to pursue that. Customer Support and Management will review any requests on a case by case basis.

I wish I would have read this before typing my long response! You said it less time what it took me a whole page!

But still I think it is something worth taking a look at from a longer range perspective Anyways. Yes. A new model is needed. That is the absolutely true and it should continue in my opinion.

realgray
11-15-2011, 06:59 PM
This has been very hurtful because Lightwave was the package I started out with. I spent 495.00 thinking I was locking in a price in August. (didn't realize the death of Core stopped that deal) I didn't realize I was entering a "window" where I wasn't locking in the price and a new paid upgrade (only 200 less then what I paid for the whole thing) was just around the corner. I understand Lightwave needs to be financially viable to continue which is why in the end I bought in. Now I am looking at alternatives.

SBowie
11-15-2011, 07:50 PM
This has been very hurtful because....Yet again, if circumstances appear (to you) to warrant consideration, please do take the matter up with CS.

fluxmedia
11-15-2011, 07:52 PM
Maya has just included Bullet also in their last update - free to subscription holders. We were predominantly a LW studio up until the Hard Core debacle. We are now a fully Maya studio with only a few seats of LW still in use, which were upgraded to 10.

Maya is quite good once you get your head around it. But man I miss LW! What I am about to say refers to LW up until 9.6 as I have very limited use of 10... but ... LW is so quick to do anything, and it always works (minus the particles, but maybe that is just me). It it faster to work in, faster to render and ALWAYS works on the renderfarm! The turnaround on jobs is definitely superior and Maya still struggles to reach the quality vs speed standard of LW. I have the benefit of being unbiased and have watched both products for 3-4 years now and would say LW has it for Shows, Commercials and fast turnaround stuff. Maya has it for movies and long time-frame projects (but only if you need the quality of rigs and mesh (amazing deformations!) that Maya provides.

LW needs to pump out features.

They unfortunately will need money to do that.

As for Blender... Until they can fix that GUI, it will keep that high learning curve that LW seems to be without. Really even if they do fix the GUI, it will be a long time before it can beat LW's. It is the most user friendly of all the 3d apps we use in our studio and simply makes LW the fastest to learn. Should probably be the entry point for every 3D artist. The jump to other apps is easy from there as you have had easy experiences and the fundamentals are easy to grasp in LW.

Rigging and nice skin deformations for realistic looking muscular movements especially faces should be a priority for LW.

We probably won't be upgrading though. We are too entrenched in Maya now and can't see us paying again jus for the 2 or 3 guys that still use it.

Stink!

gristle
11-15-2011, 11:29 PM
We probably won't be upgrading though. We are too entrenched in Maya now and can't see us paying again jus for the 2 or 3 guys that still use it.

Stink!

Haha, saw you sign off with stink, thought - must be a kiwi. Checked your sig and what do you know. RIght, back to 11...

hrgiger
11-16-2011, 04:43 AM
We spent a lot of wordage communicating that folks should base decisions strictly on 10.1, especially in HC, and that we needed to change our business model for the product. More than ever we need to aggressively develop LightWave, and that's a matter of having the appropriate resources to do so.

In all fairness Chuck, the wordage on whether or not 10.1 was the end of the line for LightWave 10.x development was pretty vauge at best. I know for sure that we would never get a direct answer when we asked if this was the case. Even when faced with the decision around 10.1 if we would take a refund or decide that we had received value for our hardcore purchase, it was never explicitely stated that 10.1 was it. I remember you (who I consider usually to be the most frank provider of information and with which I appreciate) said something along the lines of 'whether or not there are additional 10 updates'.
While I don't disagree with the idea of more resources for a more aggessive updating of LightWave, I think the last 3 years have really challenged a lot of users on how they view Newtek as a company and how they deal with their customers. I just think in this particular case, some special concessions could be made to help mend fences. In my view, the refunds were obligatory since NT did not deliver on CORE and I wouldn't consider that a concession. In my particular case, I just wish that more then 60 days would be given to those who are eligible for their charter pricing. If I do decide to upgrade to LW11, that is probably not going to be enough time for me to do so. Christmas and the month or two after is not the best time, for me anyway, to make new purchases. Is this something that customer service might work with me on?

Chuck
11-16-2011, 12:22 PM
No, it goes beyond what "was" promised to what "was" promised which is the reason why the product was purchased, in most states this is called "bait and switch" and there are laws against a company advertising one thing and selling something else. All I Care about is getting the promised features in the version that it was supposed to exist in, not pushing forward into a new version and obliteration of the promised features as if they will simply "go away" and nothing will happen.

10 just got out of beta 6 months ago for crying out loud and it was feature incomplete!

LightWave v10 went gold in December of 2010, and LightWave 10.1 was briefly in beta during 2011. Each was feature complete at release. At the release of 10.1 we also communicated that folks should base any decisions on the v10 cycle on v10.1, and not make assumptions of any further for the series.

For folks who purchased HardCORE memberships, NewTek did everything possible to make it clear that our projections were just exactly that, projected goals, not absolutes, and as such subject to change due to development realities. While we made every effort to achieve projections, including extending the one-year memberships out to roughly two and a half years to allow for more working time to get to the 10.1 release, in the end we had to offer folks the choice between 10.0/10.1 or a refund of their HardCORE membership. I'll repeat, at the release of 10.1 we also communicated that folks should base their decisions on which option to choose based on v10.1, and should not make assumptions of anything further for the series.

All of this adds up to why we do not plan to do any such similar projections in the future. We'll announce products when they are ready or very nearly so. If we talk about things as actually achieved and working, then we don't have to worry about people translating "projections" to "promises" and expecting something that may not turn out to be possible within the reasonable timeframe for a development cycle or given the issues that arise in development.

Regarding the "2D" item, would you happen to be referring to SpriteGen, which is used to render sprite strips for game development? The feature is present and working in v10.0 and v10.1.

TeraBit
11-16-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm in the same boat as Gar. I upgraded to 10.1 a couple of months ago on the strength of the Lightwave 10 videos that were on the Newtek site (the ones with William Shatner, that demonstrated the new Bullet physics engine etc.)

Being in the UK, I bought through a reseller. Once LW 10 was delivered I noticed that things were missing. With a little digging I found out that the Hardcore thing had just been scrapped, features that I intended using had been removed (the physics stuff). Add to that the Rigging DVD that was advertised as being bundled, wasn't.

Needless to say I was upset, but I thought, "Oh, well the features must have not been ready for prime time, so perhaps they will make it into some point releases, or maybe the next full version in 18 months time".

Imagine how hopping mad I was to see today, the features I thought I had paid for getting moved to LW11 and getting the offer to upgrade again to LW11 for more again than I already paid to get to 10.1 a couple of months back. :/

(Just to clarify, I think the Lightwave is well worth the money, but I am unhappy with how this thing crept up on me and that I ended up not getting the features I thought I was going to get.)

jasonwestmas
11-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Where is this BOAT that everyone keeps talking about. You all should come in from the open waters and onto the shoreline of customer service. [email protected]

Celshader
11-16-2011, 12:57 PM
We were predominantly a LW studio up until the Hard Core debacle. We are now a fully Maya studio with only a few seats of LW still in use, which were upgraded to 10.

I'm curious. What software are you using for rendering in your Maya shop? VRay, mental ray, the native Maya render engine, or LightWave? Also, what software do you use for modeling?

At work we're using LightWave 10.x to render almost everything and Maya only for creature animation. LightWave models/animates all the hard-surface stuff and ZBrush sculpts/paints the creature models. We did use VRay for massive flocks Maya-instanced birds in one episode and FumeFX for a few meteor trails in another episode, but everything else gets rendered out of LightWave.

Dexter2999
11-16-2011, 01:23 PM
OT:
Jen- Curious as to what you use for pass management?
Also, another OT question, do you have experience with Messiah? And if so how does it stack up against Maya animating? And would Maya still be prefered because of the number of artists with experience is greater?

Back on topic, can't wait! Get paid and buying my LW11 seat tomorrow! W00T!!

Celshader
11-16-2011, 03:36 PM
OT:
Jen- Curious as to what you use for pass management?

Right now we're using a custom render pass system built with Python (http://python.org/), wxPython (http://www.wxpython.org/), and PythonCard (http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/). It glues together Deadline (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/deadline/), exrTrader (http://www.db-w.com/products/exrtrader/about), the exCamera EXR module (http://excamera.com/sphinx/articles-openexr.html) and Denis Pontonnier's Pixel Filter Node Editor (http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/nodes/DP_Filter.html#NodePixFilt).



Also, another OT question, do you have experience with Messiah? And if so how does it stack up against Maya animating? And would Maya still be prefered because of the number of artists with experience is greater?



I rigged in messiah:studio 3.x for all of the creatures used in the Animal Armageddon TV series. However, I do not yet know how to animate in messiah:studio.

There are some areas where messiah:studio 3.x fell short of Maya. messiah:studio 3.x could not run a Wacom tablet and two monitors at the same time. I also think messiah:studio 3.x restricted animators to editing one item's motion envelopes at a time. messiah:studio 3.x did not have Maya's referencing, so I had to apply rig fixes manually to existing shots. I'm also not sure if messiah can integrate as tightly with LightWave as Maya can right now with custom PyMEL pipeline scripts.

That said, all of these issues might be fixed with version 5.0 of messiah:studio. We were also able to create animation in messiah that would have been difficult in LightWave 9.x. messiah:studio 3.x had a nice implementation of spline IK that we could use for tentacles, tails, fish bodies and cat spines. The armatures in messiah:studio were also fun, and I remember the messiah community was most generous when answering my many newbie questions.

However, it is easier to find seasoned Maya animators than messiah:studio animators in Los Angeles at this time.



Back on topic, can't wait! Get paid and buying my LW11 seat tomorrow! W00T!!

Yeah, I'm buying my LW11 upgrade later this week, too. :thumbsup:

PeteS
11-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Great upgrade! well worth the $$. Hell, HD instance is $300 bucks alone, and no longer works on a MAC.

ANyhow, only issue is, there seems to be no documentation/manual for the new feature. At least on the MAC build. I'm itching to use it, but the online manual is for 10!! Any answers on 11 manual??

antsj
11-16-2011, 06:58 PM
Agree with others on the upgrade cost and the significant improvement from LW9.6 (Surrealistic post).

In Autodesk Softimage, maintenance is only cost effective option. They have now a release in March/April and Maintenance only users update in October.

I think it is 795 yearly and if a person miss upgrading every 2 releases(which has become yearly) the language is that you purchase at the new user cost.

Cost of programs are not comfortable, but new features are always alot of fun too. The upgrade cost for LW have allowed NEWTEK to make available options that before cost money in plug ins or other programs.

Great features and improvement in LW 11. Thumbs up to al staff at NEWTEK for work to maintain viability of LW.

aj

jaf
11-16-2011, 07:48 PM
When Newtek can figure out how to fix this problem....
I'll think of upgrading.

Snosrap
11-16-2011, 07:57 PM
When Newtek can figure out how to fix this problem....
I'll think of upgrading.:D Could be a vBulletin thing. But that was funny.:)

djwaterman
11-17-2011, 12:23 AM
I finally got my email from Newtek, so what actually happens once you commit to following the steps. Does your version of 10.1 morph into version 11, and what if you decide you want to go back to 10.1? Guess I'm hesitant to step right into the unknown.

stevecullum
11-17-2011, 01:04 AM
Great upgrade! well worth the $$. Hell, HD instance is $300 bucks alone, and no longer works on a MAC.

ANyhow, only issue is, there seems to be no documentation/manual for the new feature. At least on the MAC build. I'm itching to use it, but the online manual is for 10!! Any answers on 11 manual??

The documentation has been put up on the pre-release forums. It's not in PDF form, but fine to get you going with how to use the new features.

Darth Mole
11-17-2011, 02:15 AM
Also, most of the new features are so well implemented they're pretty easy to figure out - instancing is kind of obvious, and once I figured out how to use Parts in Bullet, I was up and making some really complex sims. Really liking what I see - and as a Mac user I can't wait to use the fracture tool when it gets finished!

kopperdrake
11-17-2011, 03:45 AM
I finally got my email from Newtek, so what actually happens once you commit to following the steps. Does your version of 10.1 morph into version 11, and what if you decide you want to go back to 10.1? Guess I'm hesitant to step right into the unknown.

If you follow the instructions and buy it, you'll end up with an email with links to download the various options:

LW11 Prerelease Win32
LW11 Prerelease Win64
LW11 Prerelease MacBoth
LW11 Prerelease Content
LW11 Prerelease WhatsNew

Once you've downloaded, just click on the installer.exe and it'll install. Make sure you choose a different install folder than your 10.1 (I have all my lightwave installations within one NewTek folder in Programs, but each has its own folder - ie 9.6, 10.1, 11.0). The configs are all separate so I can open up LW11 and LW10.1 with no problems between. It also seems as though the hub application now doesn't remember what each version is doing, I think I read somewhere that LW11 uses a different system. So now, if I set a working directory in LW10.1, LW11 will remember its own working directory, and vice versa. Previously, all versions of LW would remember the last working directory any of them were set to, so if I worked in LW9.6 on a project, that same project folder would be the default folder when I next opened LW10.1. This doesn't happen with LW11. That being said, if I am working in LW11 and open, at the same time, an instance of LW10.1, I don't get an extra hub, so they are using the same hub for some things, but I never have them both open at the same time.

Wordy I know - I have a cold, brain is malfunctioning :D

Ah - this is all on Win64 I should have said, on Windows 7.

Afalk
11-17-2011, 04:38 AM
Kopperdrake -- the info on being able to keep the content directories is fantastic! I have my installs set up like yours (well I'll have 11 in mid December)

Phil
11-17-2011, 05:49 AM
Great upgrade! well worth the $$. Hell, HD instance is $300 bucks alone, and no longer works on a MAC.

Sure it does. Ping Graham - he has a functional 64-bit compile. I thought he would have made it available by now.

Likewise, actually, for HDPumpIt. That now has a 64-bit compile for Mac after I nudged him :D

Surrealist.
11-17-2011, 09:20 AM
There are some areas where messiah:studio 3.x fell short of Maya. messiah:studio 3.x could not run a Wacom tablet and two monitors at the same time. I also think messiah:studio 3.x restricted animators to editing one item's motion envelopes at a time. messiah:studio 3.x did not have Maya's referencing, so I had to apply rig fixes manually to existing shots. I'm also not sure if messiah can integrate as tightly with LightWave as Maya can right now with custom PyMEL pipeline scripts.

That said, all of these issues might be fixed with version 5.0 of messiah:studio. We were also able to create animation in messiah that would have been difficult in LightWave 9.x. messiah:studio 3.x had a nice implementation of spline IK that we could use for tentacles, tails, fish bodies and cat spines. The armatures in messiah:studio were also fun, and I remember the messiah community was most generous when answering my many newbie questions.

However, it is easier to find seasoned Maya animators than messiah:studio animators in Los Angeles at this time.


I have just been scouring the Messiah docs recently and learning this app to do some rigging and animation in 5.0. Here are some updates you might find interesting.

You can now edit more than one item at a time in the graph. Also you can manipulate multiple items in the viewport. Messiah now has referencing (As of version 4)

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/videos.html

It now works with a tablet and two monitors.

Version 4 also brought Point Animation. Have you seen that? Very cool. One of the most powerful features. Motion Dynamics is also very nice.

And the soft body dynamics looks very very promising. I have yet to try it out on character cloth but it is basically real time. And it does have self collision which I have tried. (Basically you set the cloth object to be a collision object and turn on self interaction) I am getting ready to do some testing with collisions on an animated character. I am really amazed at the speed of it. No calc times. Not sure how well that is going to hold up under more strenuous testing but will be interesting to see.

Here is a list of V. 5 improvements:

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/messiahStudio5_WhatsNew.pdf

Overall if your experience with v.3 was good, you'll love this upgrade I think.

Chuck
11-17-2011, 09:50 AM
Don't forget Lino told on this forum we haven't seen everything from LW 11 yet. There is more to come, but it is to early to show it. I'm really wondering what that will be...

Apologies, Lino was talking about beyond 11; the major feature sets for 11 are indeed in place at this time. We do have some considerable work left in some areas, but the range of features is already on view.

Chuck
11-17-2011, 10:08 AM
Maya has just included Bullet also in their last update - free to subscription holders.

Apologies, I just have to say this: the subscription was the payment for any updates subsequently received during the subscription term. This is just the same as if I were to say that I received 12 issues of Astronomy Magazine last year, free to subscription holders.

:)

Emmanuel
11-17-2011, 10:28 AM
LOL :D That was a good analogy.

Samus
11-17-2011, 10:42 AM
I suppose those features might be Core's OpenGL in lw 11 and bullet cloth (hopefully!).

Just guessing... it would be nice and consistant as far as Dynamics go.

BigHache
11-17-2011, 11:01 AM
When Newtek can figure out how to fix this problem....
I'll think of upgrading.

It's weird, I'm currently on a Mac viewing the forums with Safari (5.1) and that ghost page issue isn't present. Mind you, I'm normally on Windows in Chrome…

So there, problem solved. Feel free to upgrade. :D

OnlineRender
11-17-2011, 01:56 PM
When Newtek can figure out how to fix this problem....
I'll think of upgrading.

better get your wallet out then looks fixed now :devil:

Dexter2999
11-17-2011, 02:00 PM
Sooooo frustrated. I swear I was like a kid waiting on Christmas morning going to buy LW11 today. I checked my bank account and the money was there...then I saw my car insurance hasn't cleared yet! I have to wait another week.


Gutted.

OnlineRender
11-17-2011, 02:12 PM
Sooooo frustrated. I swear I was like a kid waiting on Christmas morning going to buy LW11 today. I checked my bank account and the money was there...then I saw my car insurance hasn't cleared yet! I have to wait another week.


Gutted.

I waited 5 days for the cheque to clear FIVE FREAKING DAYS ...and tomorrow I will order my new PC ...mmmm mmmm give me 16gig"possibly may even go more RAM IS CHEAP " i7 of goodness please

jaf
11-17-2011, 06:38 PM
better get your wallet out then looks fixed now :devil:

Well.... I did leave myself an out -- I said I would think about it! :D

PeteS
11-17-2011, 09:13 PM
The documentation has been put up on the pre-release forums. It's not in PDF form, but fine to get you going with how to use the new features.

OK, I know my eyes are not what they were, damn you 40's, but where is this secret forum???

PeteS
11-17-2011, 09:15 PM
Found it, maybe my eye's aren't hat bad after all :jam:

eagleeyed
11-17-2011, 09:19 PM
A side effect of the update for LWeleven including GoZ, is I have actually had a detailed look at Z-Brush now. I have a feeling I am going to be seperating with even more money to purchase it, just have to budget now and see if I can justify it.

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 11:08 PM
Hmmm, is the minimum upgrade price $395? I think I should qualify for that, but I was quoted the $495 price.

eagleeyed
11-17-2011, 11:16 PM
Hmmm, is the minimum upgrade price $395? I think I should qualify for that, but I was quoted the $495 price.

The pricing that you qualify for is listed on this page here:
http://www.newtek.com/support/424-lightwave-eleven-prerelease-11.html


customers registered from 01/13/09 to 03/31/09 will purchase for US$395
customers registered from 04/01/09 to 06/15/11 will purchase for US$495
customers registered after 06/15/11 will purchase for $695

HardCORE members cannot skip versions in order to receive the locked-in discount available for future versions of LightWave.


First time I stumbled accross that page, good FAQ there NewTek. :)

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 11:48 PM
better get your wallet out then looks fixed now :devil:
It seems to be thread-specific: this thread is working correctly, but I just got off a 43 (44?) page thread and it was still borked. :chicken:

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 11:50 PM
The pricing that you qualify for is listed on this page here:
http://www.newtek.com/support/424-lightwave-eleven-prerelease-11.html
First time I stumbled accross that page, good FAQ there NewTek. :)
Eagleeyed, truly your handle is apropos: thanks for nailing that. :thumbsup:

Now to convince CS that that is the case: a hundred bux is a hundred bux. :newtek:

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 11:53 PM
Along the lines of advertising, why doesn't NewTek advertise during Terra Nova, or any other of the shows that feature LightWave work? That would be a sure way of getting the attention of new users.
My guess: compared to advertisers on national TV, NewTek isn't just small, it's microscopic, and has advertising budgets to match.

rcallicotte
11-18-2011, 07:10 AM
zBrush - you'll like it.


A side effect of the update for LWeleven including GoZ, is I have actually had a detailed look at Z-Brush now. I have a feeling I am going to be seperating with even more money to purchase it, just have to budget now and see if I can justify it.

jasonwestmas
11-18-2011, 07:12 PM
zBrush - you'll like it.

Best sculpting brushes I've used so far.

adamredwoods
11-19-2011, 04:39 AM
LW11 looks like a very nice upgrade! I didn't like the 10.x series, so I passed. Now finally, native instancing has arrived. And better blend modes for hypervoxels? WOW!

This is what LW10 should have been, IMO, but better late than never.

My only disappointment is the lack of a "make awesomer" button...

silviotoledo
11-19-2011, 06:16 AM
well, we will really miss CLOTH and SOFTBODIES with bullet.

It's the weak part of this Lightwave.

:(

metahumanity
11-19-2011, 12:32 PM
well, we will really miss CLOTH and SOFTBODIES with bullet.

It's the weak part of this Lightwave.

:(

No bullet cloth?? Really? Nah, makes no sense..

50one
11-19-2011, 01:19 PM
Considering the fact that in different thread here people are posting cloth sims, I have no idea where some guys are taking the info from, well anyway as far as I'm concerned that area is being improved.


Anyway got question to beta testers, is it possible to use the bullet with particles?i mean, simulating, let's say 300 balls, bake the simulation and then use those balls as particle group? Also is the instance are working with the particle objects too?

Thanks in advance for any info,
Simon

jeric_synergy
11-19-2011, 01:23 PM
well, we will really miss CLOTH and SOFTBODIES with bullet.

It's the weak part of this Lightwave.

:(
Wait, don't we STILL HAVE ClothFX and SoftFX alongside Bullet?

Orimar
11-19-2011, 03:00 PM
silviotoledo:

In the "Newtek does listen! Im almost there to upgrade" thread you wrote:


Give us Bullet cloth and softbodies. Hardbody is not sufficient and cloth is extremelly necessary for characters.

And, in this thread you state:


well, we will really miss CLOTH and SOFTBODIES with bullet.

It's the weak part of this Lightwave.



Would you kindly point us to where you found this information?

Thanks.

.O.

silviotoledo
11-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Where are the cloth simulations? The Eleven release only says HARD

Orimar
11-19-2011, 04:55 PM
That may very well be true, but that alone does not necessarily mean that soft or cloth dynamics are not present in "eleven", since, contrary to what you have stated, early adapters are reporting that they are present.

So, who's correct?

.O.

eagleeyed
11-19-2011, 05:00 PM
I would also really like clarification on that matter from NewTek directly. The Eleven features page only states:


Bullet features 3D rigid body dynamics originally created by Erwin Coumans.
http://www.newtek.com/features-lightwave-menu.html

However, there have been examples of Bullet cloth being shown in the thread, and as Matt said:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?p=1198306#post1198306

Not entirely true ...

However, self collision and the various settings needed to tweak deforming objects specifically are not in there yet, but, these will be coming.

Quick note, when set to Deforming mode, any intersecting geomtry will be automagically 'fixed'.

As can be seen in this small test.

There is a video in that post for anyone interested.

I personally havent seen anywhere that commits to a full implentation of Cloth being in the final version of LWeleven, with the features page wording making it seem it wont be the case.

I know Matt says "these will be coming", just wondering really if he means in Eleven or a future release.

If there is a place, please let me know, would like to be proved wrong :P.

stevecullum
11-19-2011, 05:05 PM
Where are the cloth simulations? The Eleven release only says HARD

There aren't much in the way of controls for cloth yet, but it is in there. Controls I'm sure will come soon...

Snosrap
11-19-2011, 05:49 PM
No bullet cloth?? Really? Nah, makes no sense..


Bullet cloth is in there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=XSgg2qi-wvU

Orimar
11-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Bullet cloth is in there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=XSgg2qi-wvU

Truth over rumor.

Thanks.

silviotoledo
11-19-2011, 06:39 PM
Nice to see soft is also there. Anyway, let's see it in use for characters.
So please do a T-shirt or dress. No balls anymore please.

It was said by Matt that bullet cloth on Lightwave does not have self collisions actually. So, the implementation is still in progress. After that we need to see the stability and real use for real clothes. It seems Blender uses Bullet, but the result for cloth is too bad.

I'd like to see a good result like we find in Maya, Syflex or Marvelous.
I did some tests with Cloth FX on the other topic to show it's not usefull.

erikals
11-19-2011, 07:08 PM
It seems Blender uses Bullet, but the result for cloth is too bad.

from what i've seen Blender cloth is quite good, have any links/info on it?

jwiede
11-19-2011, 11:03 PM
I personally havent seen anywhere that commits to a full implentation of Cloth being in the final version of LWeleven, with the features page wording making it seem it wont be the case.

I know Matt says "these will be coming", just wondering really if he means in Eleven or a future release.
This is an important question, and it'd be nice to hear someone from Newtek provide an explicit answer as to whether LW11 will support Bullet cloth and soft-bodies by release? If Newtek isn't ready to commit to it yet, that would also be an acceptable answer, IMO.

The LW11 docs currently do not explicitly commit to Bullet cloth or soft-body support. Whether some level of functionality exists now isn't a guarantee of a reliable, adequately functional implementation available at LW11's release, nor are statements that controls are coming "soon" (which could as easily mean the next release after LW11).

Surrealist.
11-19-2011, 11:15 PM
It seems Blender uses Bullet, but the result for cloth is too bad.

I'd like to see a good result like we find in Maya, Syflex or Marvelous.


Me too. :)

Cloth in Blender does not use Bullet however. It was written by someone specifically for Blender. Bullet is only used in the Blender Game Engine.

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Physics/Cloth


from what i've seen Blender cloth is quite good, have any links/info on it?

The only way Blender cloth is better than old LightWave cloth, is that it has self collisions. This actually does equate to quite a bit of difference however.

Note: Old LightWave cloth states that is has "Self Collision" and if you test it on a simple plane falling on another one it will work. Put it in motion and it fails miserably as if it does not exist at all.

But for practical use in clothing both have serious limitations. Even self collisions break down under enough force in Blender. And Blender cloth is extremely finicky and springy. To get it to work on a character I had to do all sorts of tricks including putting gravity to 10x.

I actually wrote a tutorial on it for 3D Artist Magazine issue #28 (http://www.richardculver.com/tutorials.php) of this year.
http://www.richardculver.com/resources/3da_028_gallery.jpg

http://www.richardculver.com/resources/ClothStep3.jpg.opt412x427o0,0s412x427.jpg
Above image is blender cloth in action on a character.

I would like to see something closer to real time like Syflex on ICE in Softimage.

Messiah has great softbody cloth that is real time. However the collisions are horrible so far. And I have not yet figured out how to tame it. You can also set it up to have self collisions but it is a tad weak. I am currently working on testing of it so we'll see.

Greenlaw
11-19-2011, 11:18 PM
Well the 'issue' is that 11 is still in beta, meaning it's still being developed so not all the specs are finalized yet. I'm sure more info will be confirmed as 11 approaches its final release date.

By the way, the existing ClothFX system is certainly useable for clothing and hair--we've been using it in the Box for cloth, hair, and even some fluid fx for about 10 years now. Granted, the system is dated and certainly not perfect but it's worked for us for dozens of commercials and video game cinematics.

That said, I'm sure we'll be putting Bullet to good use once we get 11 in our pipeline here in the Box.

I'm almost certain I'll be using the feature on the next 'Little Green Dog' movie.

G.

adamredwoods
11-19-2011, 11:20 PM
Regarding LW11 Flocking: could one compare this to Cinema4D's MoGraph?
Or are the settings not so programmable?

Thx.

erikals
11-19-2011, 11:42 PM
The only way Blender cloth is better than old LightWave cloth, is that it has self collisions. This actually does equate to quite a bit of difference however.

yes, quite alot imo...

geo_n
11-19-2011, 11:42 PM
Regarding LW11 Flocking: could one compare this to Cinema4D's MoGraph?
Or are the settings not so programmable?

Thx.

They are using the term agents for the particles. Its more comparable to the crowd sim in 3dmax probably with behaviors for agents.

Greenlaw
11-20-2011, 12:10 AM
yes, quite alot imo...

I would hope so, being a much more recently developed tool. :)

G.

Surrealist.
11-20-2011, 01:16 AM
yes, quite alot imo...

That kind of testing is interesting and looks good for a promo but you have to test it on a full character with motion. (not just a shirt bending over a little bit or ball tests)

Under those conditions, (full on characters) self collision is crucial for some things. Blender cloth works but it ain't that much better than LightWave. And it will fail unless you have certain things set up just right. If you don't it causes lots of problems and you have to find a balance.

This is coming from someone who would rather use Blender cloth than LightWave cloth. But who thinks both - though workable - are really a pain in the A.

What I am trying to say is that both leave you with an equal number of limitations.

You can definitely use LightWave cloth in production - just with certain limitations.

You can definitely use Blender cloth in production - just with certain other limitations.

But after working extensively with Blender cloth and LightWave cloth, I'd say they have about an equal suck rating with Blender being ahead by a little. IMHO. This kind of cloth technology is very poor.

But all of that said. LightWave cloth is not nearly as bad as most people think. You can use it. But it will take more than an afternoon or two to sort it out. And when I say sort it out. I don't mean put a little cape on a cartoon character, or some other cheep thrill. I mean full on cloaks and gowns and dresses and robes and shirts with long sleeves - when the character is fighting or dancing not still like a mannequin going through some robotic poses. And then what about cloth overlaying on itself?

I have done all of the simple testing. And it is good to get your feet wet. But when you start trying to use it for something real, you have to start all over and test again until you find what works. I found the same to be true in production with Blender cloth.

What I'd like to see from LightWave 11 and beyond is something on a par with Syflex in Softimage. It is the only solution I have seen that looks like it will hold up under these conditions without too much trouble.

So it not so much a question of does it work. It is more about how much trouble is it to do anything real cool and what limitations will you run into. Both equal more time and frustration and you need as little of that as you can in production.

erikals
11-20-2011, 02:15 AM
"And then what about cloth overlaying on itself?"
this is an interesting challenge indeed... :] it would have to be cheated, if possible...
(i hear nCloth does this well)

not that familiar with Syflex, but it isn't real dynamics, but rather a very advanced deformation plugin.
so i would think it would have quite a lot of limits as well. (?)

anyone tried Marvelous Designer btw?

i like LW cloth quite well actually, it's more of a speed and self-collision issue for my part.

Bullet cloth, no idea how the quality is. (actually, does it have "cloth" at all or is it just soft body dynamics?)

 

Surrealist.
11-20-2011, 02:44 AM
In Blender you can layer cloth as in the screen grab above.

In LightWave the way you do it is you bake one cloth layer and then use it as a collision object for the next. Very time consuming.

As for Syflex, I can not say what the limitations would be. But I have seen it demoed where the guy was adjusting the parameters of a shirt in real time colliding with a body and it looks convincing.

I had the trial of Softimage and I opened that very same scene, played it back in real time on my computer. Saw what it was doing for myself. Looks pretty good. But of course there may be some limitations. But it already seems far in advance of anything I have used.

erikals
11-20-2011, 02:59 AM
as for real-time yes, pretty much.
tested it some time back, unfortunately it didn't belong to me, so the test was limited.
(paying $2200 for it though is a bit too much for most of us, heck that's over half the price of xSI :]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbwrfiqLtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOGBxdN5mNg

hevjudo
11-20-2011, 03:38 AM
I must admit after purchasing lightwave at 9.6 Im a bit miffed..

I was a Blender user and was quite impressed with lightwave, but the more I learnt I found myself coming back to Blender.. I use Messiah for animation, and would have to say that the rigging and mesh deforming tools for Blender and Messiah are far ahead of lightwave (Messiah even more so..)..

Blender now has the Cycles Render Engine in development (with current builds freely available of course) with the end goal being a full node based system (as is now) but with a render engine very similar to Octane Render.. And Camera Tracking, and Ocean Simulator thrown in for good measure..!! And constant feedback on goals and targets..

I really do love Lightwave but have found the PR and lack of clear information in regard to the development targets .. unproffessional.. I work in land development as an engineer and constantly deal with lawyers, planners, big developers. Its amazing what you can get away with if you imply something but never write it down....

So here I am thinking that really the only thing I want is GoZ and Im going to fork out $495 US for it.. Dont think so..

Blender, Messiah, and Lightwave 10.1 seem to be just fine..

Ill patiently wait with my eye on Lightwave development over the next few years, but in the meantime I can save an extra $500 and get the kids some awesome Christmas presents instead..

50one
11-20-2011, 04:57 AM
Anyway got question to beta testers, is it possible to use the bullet with particles?i mean, simulating, let's say 300 balls, bake the simulation and then use those balls as particle group? Also is the instance are working with the particle objects too?

So, is there anyone who can shed some light on it??

silviotoledo
11-20-2011, 05:52 AM
hey Erikals, your blender tests looks cool! I like the t-shirt.

yeah, we will need to wait LW 11 development to see how good will be the bullet for cloth. I really don't like Cloth FX.

I have the syflex licence for lightwave, it's almost realtime, cool simulations but it also does a little problems with collisions sometimes. It seems lightwave have a problem with the colision information. It is also not working on version 10, just 9.X.

I've tested maya n-cloth and it's really fast, colission perfect and does cloth over cloth nicelly, but sometimes you need a little edition, so you need hability in maya to use it.

Have not tried marvelous yet.

lardbros
11-20-2011, 07:28 AM
So, is there anyone who can shed some light on it??

Oops... forgot I was under NDA and am not allowed to talk about this stuff I don't think! oops!

Nothing to be seen here... move along, move along!

colkai
11-20-2011, 07:32 AM
yes, quite alot imo...

Hi erikals, for some reason, none of my media players can play these AVI files. (Win7 64-bit - tried media player, GOM, irfanview, VLC)

steve0077
11-20-2011, 07:53 AM
Works with my VLC media player.