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Jeremiah McLamb
10-04-2011, 08:22 AM
I'm shooting HD with various cameras (EX cams and some Panasonic HD P2 cams). I've got some long runs to go....up to 500' and beyond sometimes. What cables do you guys recommend for these long runs without having to boost the signal?

PIZAZZ
10-04-2011, 09:06 AM
While you can go 500' with some of the newer higher quality RG6 class shielded coax using HD-SDI, anything over 500' is a hit and miss without reclocking the signal with a DA or reclocker.

If you need to go further then Fiber is finally an affordable (relatively) option. The new BMD atem camera fiber convertors are $595 on the camera end with a 4 unit rackmount coming out in Nov for $1995. So a little over $1000 per camera run plus your fiber cost which is under $2 per foot for tactical grade heavy duty fiber.

Jeremiah McLamb
10-04-2011, 01:15 PM
what about connecting to 250' cables? Does using a connector effect it any?

PIZAZZ
10-04-2011, 01:35 PM
what about connecting to 250' cables? Does using a connector effect it any?

Yes definitely. Barrel (Female to Female) BNC connectors are discouraged against using. If you have to use a barrel then it is imperative to make sure that it is a 75Ohm version not the cheaper 50ohm ones you find at RadioShack. We use Canare 75Ohm barrels if we have no choice. Same ones we use on Panel Mount Pass thrus.

Jeremiah McLamb
10-04-2011, 02:40 PM
I'm going to be shooting and live switching football games and live concerts. So probably the best thing to do is to get the longest HD-SDI cables I can...instead of getting shorter ones and linking them?

Also, what if I ran my video signal from an sd-sdi or preview out from the camera? That's not delivering an HD signal is it?

Lee-AVP
10-04-2011, 06:21 PM
If its sd sdi, it by definition is not hd sdi.

alexoliveira
10-05-2011, 04:36 PM
The thing with HD SDI is that it's all or nothing, you either know for sure you can 500' on this cable (which I can almost guarantee you won't be able to do) and the point is moot or, the more likely, is that you don't know for sure almost certainly going to need one reclocking da (AT LEAST) per 500' run in which case there, you go. Plug in a monitor and a camera and plug it in. The unfortunate thing these days is that standards in specs are pretty loosey goosey on the part of the electronics makers and the cable makers so I never believe a word of what they say until I see it working on MY cable and MY camera.

..but I've been accused of being paranoid for a living, I'm a TD :)

Jeremiah McLamb
10-08-2011, 12:21 PM
ok...how about this thought?

What if I did a short 5' or so run of HD-SDI off the camera...converted from bnc to triax....run my long run through the triax cable...then back to short HDSDI cable in to the tricaster? Would all the connectors kill it? Or could I get a triax cable made with a bnc connector?

PIZAZZ
10-08-2011, 06:54 PM
ok...how about this thought?

What if I did a short 5' or so run of HD-SDI off the camera...converted from bnc to triax....run my long run through the triax cable...then back to short HDSDI cable in to the tricaster? Would all the connectors kill it? Or could I get a triax cable made with a bnc connector?

Do you have Triax already ran?

Jeremiah McLamb
10-09-2011, 07:45 AM
no i don't

vanderwielen
10-09-2011, 08:19 AM
I'd suggest stop guessing. look up the loss specifications for the exact cable you are using. then, determine the length that results in a 23 db loss at 1/2 of the clock rate or 750 MHZ for HDSDI. Generally, a solid center conductor works better than stranded and a thicker cable works better than a skinny one. if you simply want an answer, use Canare LV77S at 300' and it will work. Belden 1694 works, but has a solid center conducter and is therefore problematic when used on sidelines or handhelds.

Lee-AVP
10-09-2011, 08:22 AM
Are you using any of the other features usually associated with triax? Camera power, ccu, return video?

Do you already own the triax?

Triax to BNC adaptive are easy enough to come by, and if you already have the cable inventory, might as well use it. But certainly don't BUY triax for this purpose.

At 500' you're pushing it. Test thoroughly before the show. If you're doing more than a few of these, absolutely buy a fiber solution. If this long of a run is rare for you, you could just rent something.

Jeremiah McLamb
10-09-2011, 08:24 AM
I'm not quessing...I'm asking. I'm new to this and don't know all the requirements of HDSDI and all the math equation to figure signal loss. I just need to know what I need to make runs from 500' - 1000' ....300' is not enough...and I don't want to buy a bunch of signal amplifiers.

Just want to know my options. I know I could do fiber...but that's a lot more money.

Jeremiah McLamb
10-09-2011, 08:26 AM
i don't own any triax already...and I won't be using all the other options of power and ccu

I've looked at the fiber option...seems so much more expensive. And it made me a bit confused as there are a bunch of options for fiber. Suggestions?

Lee-AVP
10-09-2011, 12:31 PM
The standard option has for a while been the Aja Fido or the Telecast Rattler. But for another hundred bucks you can get the BMD camera converters with so much more power.. Headset, return video, multi-format inputs.

So that's my recommendation. Foot for foot, fiber is only barely more expensive than mid grade coax. And at a thousand feed, ther is no decision to be made. You're doing fiber.

Depending on the production, we sometimes do a hub system. Sdi coax to a hub, and fiber from there to FOH or the truck. But that's only because we already have 300' camera looms built with coax, and the hub system works well for concerts, basketball, and fights.

If we were building a new rig from scratch, it would be all fiber to the cameras. If only we could get power over fiber!

Jeremiah McLamb
10-09-2011, 01:57 PM
ok fiber it is....maybe :)

so I'll need two converters for each cable run right? One converter from hdsdi to fiber at the camera...then second converter from fiber to hdsdi at the tricaster? So that's an additional $1000 per camera run...plus the cost of cable.

where do you suggest purchasing fiber cable? I'll probably get a few 300' hdsdi cables and then probably two 500' and two 1000' fiber runs.

thanks for all your help...i know some of these questions may seem elementary...but I'm coming from the cinematic world where I don't do long cable runs. Branching in to this whole new live world. I've spent some years on a live truck but that company is mainly betacam over triax....and I just ran the camera :)

Beaumon
10-12-2011, 05:13 PM
I've spent some years on a live truck but that company is mainly betacam over triax....and I just ran the camera :)

We use Sony HXC-100 Cameras. Triax FTW!

PIZAZZ
10-12-2011, 09:04 PM
We use Sony HXC-100 Cameras. Triax FTW!

Nice cameras. What kind of events are you shooting?

mikemsi
10-14-2011, 03:23 AM
ok fiber it is....maybe :)

We use AJA (FiDO-2T/2R) dual-channel HD-SDI to Fiber converters. They're a little more expensive than the single channel units (about $1,200/pair I think), but you get two channels per fiber run. You can do a single fiber run to the converter, then have 200-300 feet of coax from the converter. With two fiber runs, you can get four channels, then do your under-300ft runs with coax.

Beaumon
10-16-2011, 12:56 PM
Nice cameras. What kind of events are you shooting?

We do corporate events mostly. Everything from AARP to Sharp, ADP, MLB, etc. 350 to 15,000 people.

ccambern
11-10-2011, 03:50 PM
I've also seen dropped frames on "borderline" copper runs. We use Canare SDI-rated RG6 and it's really only reliable to 300' on a single cable. It can vary a bit from camera to camera, too- at a recent shoot, we were able to get a really solid signal from an HM700, but had a bunch of dropped frames from an XL-H1. We do a lot of motorsports, so we've had to invest in a bunch of fiber and transceivers.

vanderwielen
11-14-2011, 04:57 PM
one suggestion...if you run handheld for sports, run coax to a fiber converter...fiber on the field is easily damaged.

brianone20
11-17-2011, 12:52 AM
I think fiber is great option and do not wish to sway your decision however, I want to share my experience with coax real quick. I have many times run HDSDI signals over 1300 feet of coax. Not 1080P, but 720P or 1080i. Here's what we do...
500'(DA)500'(DA)300'

We use Belden 1694 RG6 coax and AJA HD5DA DA's. The DA's must be powered of course so there is a catch. FYI a $125 900watt UPS will power one of the HD5DA's for 15 hours no problem and then some. If we had to do this all the time, fiber may be the way to go, although the coax to fiber converters at both tx and rx sides must be powered as well, it just seems easier but more expensive to use fiber. I also don't want to deal with broken fiber cables as we are always on the road. RG6 is very easy to fix and diagnose.

Just my two cents.

FNN Network
11-19-2011, 10:57 PM
We just finished doing exactly what your talking about. We went fiber with rattlers. We've done 500 foot runs with zero clicking issues. We power the rattlers on the camera end using phantom power down our com cable that also connects to our clear com belt packs operators use.

It is more expensive, but you'll never regreat it. Go fiber...don't hesitate...especially if you're doing sports.

cptcorn
01-10-2012, 03:48 PM
We run $35 500' RG6 cable to 3 locations when we broadcast. Without a DA. No issues. No joke.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202316478/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

rally1
01-24-2012, 05:47 PM
FYI a $125 900watt UPS will power one of the HD5DA's for 15 hours no problem and then some.

Brian, do those turn off after a certain period of time? All the consumer (ie easy to get) UPS units I have used seem to power down after a few hours, even though the battery still has charge.

TTaylor
02-02-2012, 08:17 AM
Hey,
I've used fiber, Triax... even multicore. These days for a long run I always look to fiber first. As we work in different environments each time it's impossible to know exactly what sort of factors will be in play on longer runs of copper.I wouldn't risk ever going near the maximum length of copper because it's just too risky to find out that due to large amounts of interference you're signal isn't making it.
Telecast has a great series of fiber products, as does BMD. depending on your camera configuration running fiber the full length to each camera can be over zealous. If you have groupings of cameras use that to your advantage and run a single fiber line for eigth cameras with a telecast python in a central location then run copper from there.
If you have to go fiber to each camera I'd look at the BMD units, from what I've seen they have the best bang for buck.
Cable wise look for tactical fiber (TAC4 Fibre or similar) for any longer runs. I've used it in arenas, concert halls... pretty much any where I've used fiber. It's really robust and no where near as fragile as the cheap stuff.
Hope that helps.

PIZAZZ
02-02-2012, 04:41 PM
Deploying a pair of the ATEM camera convertors and a 1000' tac2 fiber run this weekend for a separate building to the TriCaster Trailer. I am looking forward to using more and more of solutions like this. 1000' of fiber weighs 25lbs on the spool by the way. That is awesome when you have to ship this stuff all over.

For Cameras though I am leaning more so to the Copperhead Pro from Telecast. We are getting many requests and situations now that we need the ability to paint and shade the cameras. The BMD ATEM convertors just don't allow that. http://www.telecast-fiber.com/copperhead-pro/

Lee-AVP
02-03-2012, 09:56 PM
When BMD says the Atem camera converters have an "open standard" tally over SDI packet, how many of us would have to beg to get it put in to the Tricaster SDI output?

PIZAZZ
02-05-2012, 08:01 PM
When BMD says the Atem camera converters have an "open standard" tally over SDI packet, how many of us would have to beg to get it put in to the Tricaster SDI output?

Lee,

I believe the number is 135,974.

It sure would be nice to have, I agree.

rrubin
03-22-2012, 01:36 AM
Tactical Fiber Systems makes tactical fiber cables specifically for BMD Atem camera and studio converters in lengths of 250 to 2000 feet delivered on cable reels.

TFS cables are military grade Tactical Optical Fiber single mode dual fibers terminated with LC connectors and are tested with ATEM camera converters before they are shipped.

For more info: Visit http://www.tacticalfiber.com

Cheers,

Rich Rubin
Tactical Fiber Systems
www.TacticalFiber.com
561-372-0604

Beaumon
03-22-2012, 01:39 AM
Tactical Fiber Systems makes tactical fiber cables specifically for BMD Atem camera and studio converters in lengths of 250 to 2000 feet delivered on cable reels.

TFS cables are military grade Tactical Optical Fiber single mode dual fibers terminated with LC connectors and are tested with ATEM camera converters before they are shipped.

Single Mode or Multi Mode?

rrubin
03-22-2012, 02:41 AM
Single mode

Cheers,

Rich Rubin
Tactical Fiber Systems
www.tacticalfiber.com