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khalid
10-13-2003, 08:05 AM
Hi there,
I am A Mac user for 11 years, I do use LW with Mac, I want to by the new G5, But I am a bit skeptical when using 3D applications on the Mac, To any Mac User that has used it for a long time would agree that when it comes to both Mac & Pc, the PC has more speed in processing 3D graphics & more Graphic card options, & I don't know why that is!
To the people that have experience in both Machines G5 & Pc, Can you guide me in what to bay? & what do you recommend for LW? What Graphic card or processor speed to get the maximum Performance ? Money is not my main concern..
This Question was asked to Apple Tek support & to PC Machine support, And I did not get a strait answer from both?? is it that complicated ? who would know the truth without favoring The X Team with The O Team!!
I hope that I will find the truth in the end!!? It has been a long time... I hope some one out there really knows the Truth .............:( :(

Phil
10-13-2003, 08:43 AM
CPU/Memory - as much as you can afford. The dual G5 systems look fast, but you will need to investigate benchmarks to have a real idea of how performance compares to PCs.

An important factor that should be considered is that you get both Mac and PC versions of LW with your license. This gives you the possibility to try both platforms out (assuming you have friends willing to let you loose on their machines). If your Mac retailer is cooperative, you might be able to install LW on one of their demo machines (without the dongle, it will simply run as the educational version).

Where it really becomes important to have a firm choose of platform for LW is plugins. Whilst most commercial vendors will have a Mac version of their plugins, you can pretty much guarantee that every plugin out there is available for PC. Freeware or shareware plugins don't always appear on Mac because the authors don't have a Mac to compile them. This is changing - the last I knew, there was at least one person who was happy to compile LW plugins on his machine for those people who did not have a Mac to hand. It should not be ignored though - plugins are time savers, by and large, so you want to be able to access them on your platform :)

Further, what do you intend doing - animations / stills / DV work? This may require additional software or hardware. If you decide to play with the VideoToaster in conjunction with LW, you only really have the PC option, currently. If you want compositing, etc. you have various options on both platforms. Apple will sell you Final Cut Pro or Shake and in addition, Apple have a bunch of super little iApps that work well together within OS X for making DVDs, etc. PC folks tend to live with After Effects or Digital Fusion for post-processing work.

In general, all other things being equal, I would tend (these days) to opt for OS X. It's a more pleasant working environment despite the inefficiencies of the Aqua interface. I can work faster in Windows, but I am happier working in OS X. The only thing stopping me is the lack of plugins. To some extent, you might be able to side step this by buying a cheap PC or a copy of Virtual PC for those quick plugin-related fixes :) It might also give you a nice little LWSN rendernode as well :D

khalid
10-13-2003, 12:06 PM
Thanks Phil,
That's a pleasant way of looking at things, And lets say that I will sacrifice a few plugins here and there, My main problem is when I start working on complicated environment on my Mac today G4 Duel, even with its top of the line Graphic card installed on it, I cannot continue working because the machine gets to run the so slow that you just cant visualize the concept any more, I am tired from this problem that when you even want to try to find better Cards, nothing works on the Mac, Has that Changed with G5??
So my main concern to day is not even software availability, My major concern is that Do I use Mac Or Pc?? Which Machine will Go faster in OpenGL & in render??
Again Phil I am going back to the same point that I have been stuck on for the last 11 years....& please don't tell me to put 2 Machine next to each other and test it for one good reason, I don't know if I should trust The Mac volunteer to have the BEST Mac & at the same time I Don't trust The PC volunteer to says his Pc is BEST Configurations. So you see The Story just repeats it self, And Me and many others are just getting lost even more..
I am still hoping that one day the truth will come to me and others, I just hope that I am closer not further away!! I need to know the Truth Please......Please feel free to in-lighten me more...:confused:


Oh! And My brother Is a Good doctor in you town.....Cheers to Glasgow!! Great town ;)

paintboy
10-13-2003, 12:32 PM
deleted.

khalid
10-13-2003, 01:10 PM
Thanks paintboy,
Thanks for your point of view, We still go back to the same old drawing board, theories & theories & theories!! Is there no hope? Should you just give up & Pick Just one?Any one?! I still need The truth, I don't need favorites only the way, I can't choose what I can't see!! I don't see what is right and what is wrong!!
Again with all do respect to both worlds, I am still hoping that someone will have a knowledge or the wisdom in this sensitive issue, And I hope they will share it with me & others that need to know & mainly THE TRUTH.:rolleyes:

eblu
10-13-2003, 01:26 PM
also,
there is something to be said for working within the constraints of the system available to you. If you are choking your machine, and its not because the terrible ATI OpenGL display bug, then there are probably ways to speed things up.

such as:
1. storyboard storyboard storyboard. plan shots so well that you never need to build the entire set, for any one shot. this saves render time, and modelling time, and bc you build only what you need and no more, the set usually winds up easy to manipulate in OpenGL.

2. turn down the openGL options. I have a 16 meg ati Rage pro card, and it works just fine, real time in fact, with just a few tweaks to the display settings for most things. Remember LW is not a game, you can live with an ugly display as long as you can understand what your looking at, and get good final results.

many people blame the system for its lackluster performance, and they have every option turned on at full blast. The truth is, Every year CPUs leapfrog themselves in performance and we still arent satisfied. That just doesn't make sense. so why not get down off the bleeding edge so that you Can get work done? Get used to some level of abstraction, and speed up your work, without spending a ton of cash.


heh heh, i guess I'm backing the whole "think different" thing, but it makes sense for everybody, not just mac people. Its nice to have the fastest/strongest whatever, but if you don't have it, or like me you can't take the hit in your productivity (I'm personally much more productive on a mac) theres no shame in making your life easy, by using the best visualizing device you have... your imagination.

khalid
10-13-2003, 01:49 PM
Thanks eblu,
But again you are giving me work flow tips, & that only comes with experience in how you set up thing on you software, That is great!! & there are hundreds of creative ways to make you set to have less so you can gain more, & I know that this has a big effect on my work. Still we stray out of the main Need, Hardware performance, not software work flow & Tactics...

What is a better Choice to make LW 3D Do more, Do not consider money or Favorites as an option!!!

Does any one Knows the Truth???!!!!

paintboy
10-13-2003, 01:50 PM
deleted!

khalid
10-13-2003, 02:15 PM
So we are under the mercy of the Blind-man has lost his stick, His only way home is by guessing Or Trying all Directions ......going into the maze with his hops up high.... not knowing there might be a deadened....


Thats What I was afraid of!! No Truth in the end, Only excepting the confusion.....The continues confusion.....
:confused: :confused:

Triple G
10-13-2003, 05:08 PM
I really don't see what the problem is. Mac or PC...both are capable of producing professional quality 3D work. I own a 1GHz G4, and have worked on several Pentium and Athlon-based systems in the past. Generally, the PCs have seemed faster interface-wise and rendering-wise, but I feel more comfortable with the Mac OS. I'm sure the new G5s are much snappier now, compared with the G4s...so the 3D playing field is now much closer to level ground.

Bottom line...the truth you seek does not exist. Pick a platform that you're comfortable with, and run with it. Mac or PC...there is no wrong choice. Stop worrying about the hardware and start doing some killer work! :)

mlinde
10-13-2003, 09:35 PM
I have a friend who does killer lightwave work with...wait for it... a PowerMac 8500 with a G3/400 processor upgrade, 256 MB of RAM, an ATI Rage Orion, and OS 8.6.

It wasn't the paintbrush that made VanGogh.

js33
10-13-2003, 09:38 PM
Hehehehe. Well if his work is that good maybe he could afford to upgrade. ;)

Cheers,
JS

khalid
10-14-2003, 12:55 AM
I get all your point, & it is all taken in consideration, But As A Mac user That Has Been Faithful to Mac, And I don't that I ever said that I Had problems in Quality production, The only problem is looking at what I have today (Machine), I have to many restrictions... Example Does Any one knows Something About the G5 that Makes it accept more Upgrades or Better Graphic Card then The G4s or earlier Macs?? I asked Apple, & the feeling I got was they Did not know! Could that Be? So how much restriction We have when it comes to beefing up the G5 only ?Who Knows!!!????

Is that such a complicated Question to ask!! Almost every one that posted an answer, Just goes around the Question, Like saying things that reflect Artistic expires Or creativity or work flow & tricks here & there !! Again We still go round and round. If every one believe that there work is Very good then thats great!! I am not Judging How Creative People Are, I only need to no Should I stick with the Towel that I am using for 3D ARt Or is THere A sharPer ToOl!!Ahhh!!! A lot will still favor What they are using, Just like What foot Ball team they like, Others don't have a good answer so they would blame the artiest for not Working properly.....Ahhh Again!!
My Purpose of this exercise was to prove that we are all followers to the wave of advertising, And what Your Heart loves,It does not have to bet the Real truth, I does not have to make sense, We just accept the that & follow. But I think Deep inside you might still have a voice that tells you (Am I right??Am I right??Am I right??Am I right??...................


So No one knows!! & no one wants to know!! & I said earlier That this is part of Accepting, We think that What ever we have to be the best that we deserve....It's A Dead End, All answers Are very_____restricted___ Contains____No Way out!
Thanks for trying:)

drclare
10-14-2003, 02:00 AM
I think mlinde's point was that in the end the hardware doesn't matter, it's the artist that counts. Maybe having a slow system makes him really pay attention to his polygon counts and really optimise his scene to minimize render time.

js33
10-14-2003, 02:41 AM
Well here's my 2 cents worth.
PC's are pretty cheap now and Lightwave (since 7.5) comes with both Mac and PC versions. So why not buy both a Mac and a PC then you have the best of both worlds. :D

PC's do have more choice in graphic cards and the same cards for both are cheaper for the PC.

Then you can use the PC for Lightwave and the Mac for Video editing and DVD production, etc... although those can be done on the PC as well. But it never hurts to have more than one machine in a production environment. Also if a client, say an ad agency, sends you files they will usually come from a Mac so you won't have any problem working with their files.

Also if you need to accept PC files such as word, powerpoint or avi files then you can also work with those.

Cheers,
JS

Ge4-ce
10-14-2003, 04:01 AM
I think I know what you are feeling.. It's a feeling like no-one want to tell you there are better systems out there. You're question is: ARE there better systems out there?

YES THERE ARE! THERE ALWAYS ARE! As long as you have the money, there is.

On the other hand, it is true what everyone says..

Wanna do some serious Lightwave stuff?
Pick up you mouse and start! That's the only way.

The Dual G5 with lots of ram will work just fine! Maybe in January, there will be new graphic cards for the Mac, as a guy at mac expo in Paris told me. This will slightly increase the performance.. Do you want to work on holywoodproductions? There is always silicon grafix! Why not, since money was not an issue, You told us, Buy something like the virginia Tech plant with 1100 Dual G5, and you renderspeed will increase a bit :rolleyes: Maybe if you pay nVidia a couple of million dollars, they wil build you a personal for mac optimized Grafix card that will scream!! for the next 3 months (and then being old), I know I'm being sarcastic.. But there is NO answer to your question. I was able to do a lot of work with an ATI rage Pro G4 450 single!! I recently saw an animation made on an AMIGA!! many of today's animators could not finish a work like that! How do you think most people work in the animation business? Do you think their scene files from a city contains all buildings in 100K polygon models?? NO WAY, all buildings are maid in 100K poly models or more, but in the scene file, they are first replaced by 6 poly Cubes, wich plays realtime and gives a good impression what the movie is going to look like! Then at the end they are replaced by the high poly models,.. You should not TRY to rotate a cameraview in realtime in this scene! Not even on a silcon graphics! It does not work!! But it does render!!

Then I'm not even talking about multi layer rendering, just to save time..

mlinde
10-14-2003, 09:26 AM
-delete-

mlinde
10-14-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by khalid
My Purpose of this exercise was to prove that we are all followers to the wave of advertising, And what Your Heart loves,It does not have to bet the Real truth, I does not have to make sense, We just accept the that & follow.
So you don't really care about the hardware question, you just want to stir up trouble?

As an artist, in any medium, you work with the tools you are comfortable with. I buy Windsor Newton horsehair brushes to paint with. They cost a lot more, and aren't necessarily better than other brushes. I've used them for years, I know how they feel and how they put paint down on canvas. I've tried other brushes, but use the ones I like. The same goes for computers, but the question can get much more complicated. If you are more comfortable with the workflow in Mac OS 9, or Windows 2000, that system will work better for you than a different system. The problem with switching systems in a digital production environment is the COST. You don't just go buy a new Windows PC because it's faster than your old Mac. You go buy the PC, you pay to get PC versions of all your software, you learn the ins and outs and little tricks of a different operating system. I use a Mac for three reasons (in order of priority):
1) I know the ins and outs of the Mac OS better than any version of Windows.
2) I have thousands of dollars invested in Mac-platform software
3) I like the feel of the Mac GUI. I think the mouse is more responsive and smooth, like my Winsor Newton brush. It's a purely subjective experience.

If you want the biggest, fastest computer out there, get ready to be disappointed. The life cycle of the "fastest" machine is less than six months. After a few cycles, you can't upgrade small parts anymore because something fundamental has changed, and you've got to upgrade big parts. The difference is, when you upgrade big parts on the Mac, you have to go buy a whole box from Apple. When you upgrade big parts on a WinPC, you get a logic board, processor(s) and maybe RAM.

Here are a few facts:
1) Computers based on the intel motherboards (or AMD) are more upgradeable because there are more manufacturers making parts that will go into the slots, from processors to RAM to PCI cards to AGP cards to power supplies to cases.
2) Computers made by Apple can be upgraded via RAM, available PCI cards, a handful of AGP cards from Apple and ATI, and the occasional processor upgrade from one of 3 or 4 companies.
3) Computers in group 1 are less expensive to make and buy because there are so many competitors in the market, they have to lower prices to compete. Computers in group 2 are more expensive because there are fewer competitors in the hardware market.
4) Computers in group 1 can be more difficult to configure (up front) because the variety of parts manufacturers follow their own standards, and there is less regulation.
5) Both systems are fairly stable once built and running.

paintboy
10-14-2003, 11:03 AM
deleted.

khalid
10-14-2003, 12:11 PM
Well I only ask those that Have the Knowledge, Not those Whom think they DO!!
"Not every one with A brush is an Artist"

No need to get all worked up for nothing paintboy... If you don't like What You here, No Need to Participate in this one ....There are lots & Lots of others that will comfort your Need! Others Have Been Very useful & helped me to understand what different people think about this issue.

So paintboy Don't Upset your self! Just Go back To your Brushes & Paint In Peace...It really helps, Specially with carolinas Sunsets....:cool:

paintboy
10-14-2003, 01:01 PM
deleted!

khalid
10-14-2003, 03:27 PM
paintboy ,
The Question of the Day is, Are You A 3D Or LW artist???Hmm!! form your work, I can clearly see that you have Very little experience when It comes to 3D Work!!! I really Tried to Qualify you as a Voice to listen to, But you are not (Sorry)!! What are you doing in this Chat? What Are you doing answering A question that Was asked to the LW 3D artist That really Need Graphic Cards & lots of processing to run There application?? Why would someone Just go in Chats that are Specified to certain issues That Some people Are interested in & Be Mr.CaPtaiN DebAte ?? The last thing that I would like to ad, The Software that is used in your Kind of work Does not need Much HardWare Experience.......So Thank you for (footsteps fading away....) It's About Time Bro!!:cool:

paintboy
10-14-2003, 04:15 PM
deleted.

Triple G
10-14-2003, 04:42 PM
Can someone please close this thread? It was pointless to begin with, and it doesn't look like it's going to be getting any better. :rolleyes: