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patrickkelly
09-22-2011, 08:18 AM
Good news, Bad news.

Good news, I have a job and am hell busy.

Bad news, see above.

I need to pawn off some modeling work and am happy to pay the person who comes up with the best product. I have used this method on this forum in the past and it has worked very well, for me and the winner of the cash prize. So here it is...

http://www.patrickkellystudios.com/Mask/Mask-001.jpg


http://www.patrickkellystudios.com/Mask/Mask-002.jpg

I am using Lightwave 10.1, but don't care what you use to model it, so long as it is fully compatible.

Since I have had little sleep in the last two weeks, I am feeling generous, so let's say $250 to the best submission.

OK, get to it. I will be shooting in the studio with our new Red Epic cameras today and might be slow to respond to questions.

I will publicly announce the winner, and if you happen to be friends with that person, they will have money for beer.

c5m7b4
09-22-2011, 04:04 PM
Hey,
I am very new to Lightwave and have been heavily inspired by looking at the work that you guys do. I was hoping that you would post the submissions so we can see what the results look like.

Thanks,
Mike

NinoK
09-22-2011, 04:13 PM
What an ingenious idea for cheap labor.

patrickkelly
09-22-2011, 04:19 PM
Ninok, for the right animator, this will be a walk in the park, for others, it will pose a challenge. Any change you want to take a stab at it?


c5m7b4, I will most certainly post up the winning submission.

hrgiger
09-22-2011, 06:22 PM
When do you need this PK?

Dexter2999
09-22-2011, 07:00 PM
I suck so I won't be submitting anything but at first glance it looks like a chain link fence mesh with backing material...apply cloth effects.

Then much much much tweaking.

JeffrySG
09-22-2011, 08:24 PM
Patrick, just out of curiosity, rather than have 20 people work on something for you and only one of them getting paid, why don't you ask to see some examples and just hire one modeler to do the job and get paid? Finding a good modeler here will not be a problem.

And everyone else... Why would you do commercial work for someone for no pay? (http://www.no-spec.com/faq/) This is not a contest. This is a paying job for Patrick. Not trying to be disrespectful to anyone either, btw.

probiner
09-22-2011, 11:02 PM
/\ Feel the same.

Iain
09-23-2011, 06:59 AM
I'll do it twice as well as the best submission for $100.

Portnoy
09-23-2011, 08:13 AM
And everyone else... Why would you do commercial work for someone for no pay? This is not a contest. This is a paying job for Patrick. Not trying to be disrespectful to anyone either, btw.

@Jefferysg, thanks for the article link, very interesting!

patrickkelly
09-23-2011, 08:29 AM
hrgiger, I would like to start setting up my scenes early next week.

Dexter2999, you might be correct in your approach.

JeffrySG, you make a good point, but because this is a challenge to me, the wide variety of solutions that will be presented will benefit each of us, unless of course there is only one way to model this thing, which I doubt. This is a gamble of course and I don't expect ANYONE to spend time on this if they can not afford to do so. And unlike some "I'll take care of you next time" ********, I have clearly offered to pay for the finished product. The right modeler, with the right solution can knock this this out in half a day. I think that $250 for a half day is a fair pay rate. Now if you struggle to find the solution, and it takes you 2 days, well then you are working pretty cheep. I am looking for the right guy with the right solution.

Iain, no way, a deal is a deal. I have hired other animators from this forum and will not do anything to sour that resource.

I am not only looking to buy a finished product, but to also learn different ways to do it. The vast experience of this forum will present ways of doing this project that I would have never thought of, and I have been using Lightwave since it was bundled with the Toaster.

Iain
09-23-2011, 09:01 AM
Iain, no way, a deal is a deal. I have hired other animators from this forum and will not do anything to sour that resource.



Sorry, I was joking. I'd never enter into anything like this this because I don't work for nothing-its against the few principles I do have.

And no matter how you pitch this that's what it is because every entrant will be really hoping to 'win'.

sandman300
09-23-2011, 09:56 AM
I think this is a great idea, at least for those of us looking to hone our skills, while getting a job with a real company is out of our reach, things like this help to feed the resumes. I think I may try my hand at it when I get home from the day job.

rednova
09-23-2011, 01:22 PM
Dear Amigo:

My skill is not good enough to tackle this job.
But I want to tell you I really appreciate this challenge.
This means sometime in the future, I will have a chance to get
a small contract from you.
Please keep bringing these challenges for cash.
I might be able to take a stab at it.
Thanks !!!

Rednova

c5m7b4
09-23-2011, 01:42 PM
I love the idea. That is going to make me work harder. For those of us who are very new to 3D modeling and Lightwave it definately gives us something to look forward to. I absolutely see the point if your profession is already in this field though. Hopefully I'll be able to participate soon. It would be the only real way to build up a resume without a degree in the field or knowing someone in the right place.

lardbros
09-23-2011, 02:26 PM
Just out of interest PatrickKelly, how much detail are you expecting in this? What is the target? Telly, games or film? Does all that detail need to be modelled?

kadri
09-24-2011, 04:26 AM
"Will work for food." was-is bad but:
"Will work for possibility."

Not me!:stumped:

akademus
09-24-2011, 05:16 AM
Its not all about getting payed for what you do. Its also about having fun doing it. I always expect at least one thing out of payed projects. To be whether well payed or very interesting. Preferably both of these.

So i'm giving it a shot. Its under 1 hour as well, does that make it speed challenge? :)

Cheers

patrickkelly
09-24-2011, 09:20 AM
akademus, that looks pretty damn good for under an hour, we might need a tad more detail in the outer mesh, it will depend on the actual product shots, which we have not yet shot. For under an hour, you got the basic shape nailed. Love the way you got the flat part to marry up with the actual filter part.

lardbros, as for the level of detail, this is for a corporate client, and we will likely get as close as a medium shot or even a close up. Can't say until we have our studio shoot.

I see the other challenges that come and go on this forum, and although they have always interested me, I never have the time to participate. I had hoped that this would be similar to those other modeling challenges, but with the added incentive of some cash. Perhaps I offended the artistic nature of some, and for that I am sorry, but this modeling job presented a challenge to my skill level, and it was in that vein that I reached out to the forum. Had I simply asked for help, and offered nothing in return, I might have stepped on fewer toes. That being said, for those who submit their models, please include a brief sentence or two about your technique. We can all learn a new trick, even if we are old salty crusty codgers with too little sleep. (that was a weak stab at humor).

sandman300
09-24-2011, 08:58 PM
Well, I modeled it 4 times using different methods before I was satisfied with the polyflow, most of my time was spent texturing. I didn't model the bands yet, but that won't be a big deal. How does it look so far? Any reason for me to continue my efforts?

sandman300
09-25-2011, 12:19 AM
I was messing around with it some more, I came up with something a little bit different.

Iain
09-25-2011, 03:42 AM
I see the other challenges that come and go on this forum, and although they have always interested me, I never have the time to participate. I had hoped that this would be similar to those other modeling challenges, but with the added incentive of some cash. Perhaps I offended the artistic nature of some, and for that I am sorry,


There is nothing wrong with healthy competition but this is different. I worked in Architecture and Construction for 15 years and I can tell you that the established trend of competitions is not popular with anyone other than the client.

Does it bring the odd job to a firm? Yes.
Has it put any firms out of business? Oh yes.
Why? Because firms with little work on can't resist the lure of a competition so they spend a lot of time and resources on it, only to lose when they could have been drumming up work in other ways.
What do they get? Nothing. No expenses, nothing. No real publicity, no new experiences, nothing. Only the public knowledge that they lost.

So, no, my artistic sensiblities are intact. It's my business brain that's appalled.

patrickkelly
09-25-2011, 11:05 AM
sandman300, that is some nice work there. A question if I may, did you use geometry or texturing for your mesh? I like the way you got the texture on the flat part, and the folds look real good too. Never mind, I answered my own question. In the side view, I can see daylight thru the mesh geometry.

I will wait until the weekend is over and make my selection. Thanks to all who have submitted their work.

sandman300
09-25-2011, 02:52 PM
A question if I may, did you use geometry or texturing for your mesh?

It's actually both. In the first set of pics it is just a bump map on a UV with a weight map to vary the bump height. The last pic, I made a copy of the geometry on another layer, and used point normal move to shrink the geometry. then on the outer layer I used the texture that I made (the lattice pattern) as a clip map, with the weight map from earlier as an alpha map for the edge area.

If you want to see other angles just let me know.

Iain: I totally understand where your coming from, for a business to spend resources and money on a "I hope I win" scenario is just plain bad business sense, but for an individual who has nothing to loose but a little time, and even if they loose there is still the bonus of the experience. This kind of thing is perfect.

patrickkelly
09-25-2011, 06:34 PM
sandman300, thanks for sharing your workflow, that is a different approach than I would have taken. Nicely done.

Since your outer mesh is clip mapped, I assume it would be possible to vary the image map so as to make the holes in the mesh smaller?

Will the outer mesh (clip mapped) cast a shadow on the inner mesh? I will test that and see.

I know clip maps are all or nothing, no soft edges, so if I needed a soft edge on the outer mesh, I suppose I could render it in two layers and do some comping. Hummmm.

sandman300
09-25-2011, 07:25 PM
Since your outer mesh is clip mapped, I assume it would be possible to vary the image map so as to make the holes in the mesh smaller?

Not a problem, I made the clip map / bump map by making geometry in modeler, and then rendering it in layout with the orthographic camera. there is a bit more to it than that (texturing and lighting) but because of this method I can easily go back and change the size of the camera to change the scale of the pattern. It is a bit of guesswork to get the right size though; the one I used was the second one I rendered. The first was about 5 times smaller. I could also change the thickness of the lines.


Will the outer mesh (clip mapped) cast a shadow on the inner mesh? I will test that and see.

I know clip maps are all or nothing, no soft edges, so if I needed a soft edge on the outer mesh, I suppose I could render it in two layers and do some comping. Hummmm.

You really wouldn't want soft edges on a clipped surface, at least as far as shadows go. There best way IMHO to get soft shadows is by using the right lighting. The Right now, the model is stet up as two layers, so under the Properties panel>render there are shadow options. Self shadow is off for both, and cast shadow is off for the outer layer.

Here it is with cast shadows on.

hrgiger
09-26-2011, 07:40 AM
I tried using actual geometry for the strings and had some success but ultimately, there are problems with the technique so I won't bother finishing it. Just took it as a challenge.

What I did was made a copy of my subpatch object in a second layer, froze that mesh, and then made a pattern of cross hatched splines to use as stencils on the frozen mesh. Then I loop selected each cut in turn which follow the contours of the frozen mesh, and created curves from the selections. In a seperate layer, I converted the curves into polylines with LWCAD, then used LWCAD's profiler tool to create the string. There was a bit of cleanup before getting to profile it so it did take a bit of time but once I had it down, it went quick enough. The biggest problem I could see was that there was no way for me to create my cuts on the frozen mesh without getting distortion around the sides perpendicular to the cutting plane. I even tried flattening the mesh in a morph to remove the distortion but morphs don't respect booleans and the cuts were the same wtihout the morph.

Personally, I think this would best be handled by zbrush or something like it that would allow this kind of detail. I actually did try it but wasn't happy with the results. But I'm still learning zbrush so I'm sure in more capable hands, the results would have been better.

Anyway, here's what I ended up doing.

patrickkelly
09-26-2011, 09:56 AM
hrgiger, thank you for your submission, that is a very interesting solution you came up with, and totally different than what I tried. I have always wanted to learn Z Brush and LWCAD but never seem to have the time. It seems like the mesh surface is the real challenge here. Thank you for taking a crack at it.

patrickkelly
09-26-2011, 10:48 AM
Well actually we have two. I really like both the submissions from sandman300 and akademus, and so I have decided to put the cash prize in each of their pockets.

I appreciate all the submissions and the vast differences in the solutions offered. Like my Grand Daddy used to say, "There is more than one way to skin a pig", and I have learned a few new tricks as a result.

For those who disagree with this method of solving my modeling challenges and getting my work done, I respect your viewpoint and hope we can all continue to be productive members of this forum. That being said, when I have additional challenges, I will most certainly look here for solutions, and when I can, gladly pay for it.

patrickkelly
09-30-2011, 09:38 AM
I utilized the model provided by Akademus and the clipmap trick that sandman300 came up with. It was close, but the clip map had hard edges that were a bit too much, so using sandman300's idea, I copied the outer mesh layer, point normal moved it out a tad, and applied a transparency map with a blurry version of the grid texture. The UV map needed some love and bingo, it's done.

http://www.patrickkellystudios.com/Mask/Test-001.jpg
http://www.patrickkellystudios.com/Mask/Test-002.jpg
http://www.patrickkellystudios.com/Mask/Test-003.jpg

Thanks again to this forum and its members for their vast and varied knowledge and experience. And especially to Akademus and Sandman300.

lardbros
09-30-2011, 09:47 AM
Good job guys!

Just as an aside, I don't see anything wrong with you asking people here to do work. As long as you pay fairly, and it seems you did, it's no different from selling your soul to well known 3d model based selling websites. :)

BlueApple
09-30-2011, 05:18 PM
No disrespect to anyone involved in this process, but I am with Iain.

For those that participated in/hosted the competition, if you all feel like you benefited from the whole thing, I wish you the best.

This is not at all directed at the OP, or intended to speak badly about the OP, but if anyone is unfamiliar about speculative (spec) work, I encourage you to read up about it prior to engaging in the practice.

probiner
09-30-2011, 05:44 PM
I personally, now, see this matter differently, patrick wanted to learn and he paid for it.

Normally ppl come here and ask for help and normally they kindly receive it.

Maybe patrick thought that this was not a matter to "might get help", but he had to be sure he get it, hence shaking some money.

Yes he could have had that help from one person he selected, but that would show him probably only one solution (even if it was a good one)

So I guess it's the money that makes it look dirty, not the actual intentions of patrick, when compared to spec work.

If he just had came and made a challenge, I bet many would dive in and presented options and solutions, but probably not as complete as the one that participate provided.

It doesn't look good, but probably not the same thing we see all days, literally. Not saying is good, just probably different from what we painted.

Cheers

sandman300
09-30-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm happy to have been able to help. For the record I don't see this as spec-work. If anything, Ian trying to under bid the competition showed that patrickkelly has integrity when it counts.

Thanks again for the chance.

JeffrySG
09-30-2011, 09:14 PM
I'm happy to have been able to help. For the record I don't see this as spec-work. If anything, Ian trying to under bid the competition showed that patrickkelly has integrity when it counts.

Thanks again for the chance.

Iain, was joking just so you know. He plainly states how he feels. :)

akademus
10-01-2011, 02:07 AM
I don't think this is by any means speculative work.

Patrick is a fellow lightwaver who got stuck in the work most likely due to lack of time to respond to the client, asked people for help and also put some dough in it, as he is charging this to client so I think it would be kinda ungrateful to take other people solutions and resell them to client.

If there where no money involved I would most likely explain the way I would do it and follow up to see how it gets done. Since there was some money involved I said what the heck, I can spare an hour or two and see for my self how well the method works.

I wouldn't mind if someone else won, however I think Patrick was very generous and awarded two people, thus spending twice the money he intended. He thus shows great deal of respect for other people's time and skills.

Yesterday I went and bought something nice for my wife in about same amount so all in all I think its time well spent, better than in front of TV (what I was originally intending to do).

Iain
10-01-2011, 02:57 AM
Just for clarification, I personally have no issues with the OP or anyone who thinks this is not a horrendous trend for outsourcing of work.

I do worry that this will become acceptable, however and that people will think spec work is "OK in certain circumstances."
It's not-no matter how its dressed up or how nicely its carried out.
You don't want to become known as the guy who works for free or cheap. On a larger scale, that affects the whole industry. Prices come down, standards fall.
Also, for a client to tell you the price you're going to accept and throw in that you're blessed is completely arse for tit.

These things are done in a set way to protect everyone involved. You mess with that, hell mind you.

geo_n
10-01-2011, 03:12 AM
250USD for this model is overpaying.
This would take less than 2 hours to do. You can ask veteran 3d artist at odesk, elance, etc to do this for less than 100. But they're all in asia or india. :D

lardbros
10-01-2011, 03:40 AM
250USD for this model is overpaying.
This would take less than 2 hours to do. You can ask veteran 3d artist at odesk, elance, etc to do this for less than 100. But they're all in asia or india. :D

I just feel that turbosquid undersells and encourages people to give quality work for free... Unfortunately it also gives opportunity for poor work to be sold for quite a bit of dosh. Speculative work is done all over the industry, especially in 2d design work... Bidding for projects by taking time out to show what you could do on a piece of work, and not get paid unless you win the pitch!