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jeric_synergy
09-20-2011, 11:26 PM
When using "Silhouette Edges" I get an uneven line (see attached).

AA=10. Simple object, attached.

Why is this so?
How do I avoid it?



Thanks.

nickdigital
09-21-2011, 08:54 AM
This might have to do with your Edge Z Scale value. I set it to 1.0 and the line renders for the most part ok. There are some areas where the lines look chewed up but I'm not getting those breaks that you are. I use unReal over LW lines as problems like the one you're having are harder to correct with the native tools.

Simplifying your geometry might help. IMHO there are a lot of polys for such a basic shape.

nickdigital
09-21-2011, 09:02 AM
You could see if this link helps.
http://celshader.com/gallery/kara/about4.htm

jeric_synergy
09-21-2011, 09:34 AM
This might have to do with your Edge Z Scale value. I set it to 1.0 and the line renders for the most part ok.
I left it at 1: some values used just made things that should have been obscured draw thru the object.

It seems very contingent on the object's rotation: at fr40, no problems, fr47, lots of gaps.


I use unReal over LW lines as problems like the one you're having are harder to correct with the native tools.

That's a shader?

Simplifying your geometry might help. IMHO there are a lot of polys for such a basic shape.
It was just knocked out quickly (although not as quickly as hoped) for making a 2d perspective mask, so, yeah, I agree.

Thanks Nick. I should probably tug on Jennifer's coattails too.

nickdigital
09-21-2011, 10:05 AM
It's this plug-in:
http://d-creation.sakura.ne.jp/plugin_latest.htm

If you look at my avatar, unReal was used on that. If you go to this link this is the Fairly OddParents special that it's from. If you go towards the end of the clip you can see the robot in action. LW lines actually won't draw the robot's head properly. unReal handled it perfectly. The quality of the vid is so-so.
http://my.spill.com/video/fop-hd-wishology-episode-1-1

This is a youtube video from one of my animators. You can see how unReal rendered this object. Again, very little cleanup in comp...if any. I think this is a raw LW render.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDUWqBUrq8A

That's the problem with LW lines. They might look perfect on one frame but if you have an animation where the object/camera changes then you might start to see the line quality change. So you spend a lot of time noodling settings hoping to find a happy middle ground. And even then you probably won't get exactly what you want. When we used to use LW lines I would find myself doing a lot of clean up during the comp stage. Not fun if you had to change the animation due to notes, etc.

With unReal you don't have that. The plug-in is PC only though so if you're on a Mac you're out of luck.

daforum
09-21-2011, 10:47 AM
Sorry to go off topic, but I just watched the FOP special and it's really good!
This one -> http://my.spill.com/video/fop-hd-wishology-episode-1-1

Loved the bit when the teacher sets a new assignment and the chalk lets him down.
You guys must have lots of fun making those (not jealous one bit!)
Great work :)

nickdigital
09-21-2011, 11:01 AM
Sorry to go off topic, but I just watched the FOP special and it's really good!
This one -> http://my.spill.com/video/fop-hd-wishology-episode-1-1

Loved the bit when the teacher sets a new assignment and the chalk lets him down.
You guys must have lots of fun making those (not jealous one bit!)
Great work :)

Thx!

vector
09-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Amazing render! I didnīt know this plugin exists. Very useful :)

Vector

jeric_synergy
09-21-2011, 07:14 PM
It's this plug-in:
http://d-creation.sakura.ne.jp/plugin_latest.htm

Dude. You are : THE MAN. :thumbsup:

Thanks a tonne Nick. ---And that is the most JAPANESE website I've seen in a long time. :)

nickdigital
09-21-2011, 07:20 PM
:thumbsup:

FYI the beta of unReal won't crash Layout when you switch to VPR. The beta version has been beta for awhile though and I don't know how much has changed since the release version. We've been using the release version for awhile but will probably switch to the beta just to avoid that nasty crash. unReal lines don't draw in VPR though so there's no real point in switching to VPR anyway. If something in the beta is broken you can always roll back to the non-beta version. There are a lot of options in the plug-in...most of them I don't use.

bazsa73
09-21-2011, 08:10 PM
Heck, if I had known... I will try this. Thx for the tip Nick.

jeric_synergy
09-22-2011, 01:31 AM
Great results on the sample files. Now I'm slogging thru the dox, trying to suss out how the effect is specified for which geometry.

That is some Ka-RAZY translation in those dox-- brutal. Good thing for a make-over on my "plugin of the week" blog.

(And by "week" I mean "monthly, maybe".)

nickdigital
09-22-2011, 05:07 AM
I separate areas by surface border. You can also do it by group ID but I find it easier to do it with a single group ID and multiple surfaces.

jeric_synergy
09-24-2011, 10:55 PM
Oyyy-yoi-yoiiiiiiii, before I start writing my own translation of the translation, has anybody already done so?

For instance: I haven't even been able to LOCATE the "Group ID" field in the NSE, let alone use it. I think I've been thru every heading, haven't seen it yet (for what that's worth). Which heading is it under?? ("Group ID" did not turn up in a global search of the LW10 pdf dox.)

nickdigital
09-25-2011, 10:02 AM
There should be English versions of the docs with the download. The translation is still a bit weird tho but you should be able to get the idea of what's going on.

Group ID has to do with the unReal instance that's been applied. Group ID lets you have different line settings in a single scene.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2011, 12:15 PM
There should be English versions of the docs with the download. The translation is still a bit weird tho but you should be able to get the idea of what's going on.
Thanks, Nick, I've got the "Engrish" dox, but seriously, I'm going to print them out and translate them into REAL English. When I'm thru I'll put them up on my blog for checking, correction, & distribution. Happy to give them to the Unreal people too.

Group ID has to do with the unReal instance that's been applied. Group ID lets you have different line settings in a single scene.
The image the authors use uses the old "SpreadSheet" function, which is of course gone. I'm just looking for the Bank of presets available in the NSE to simply locate the GroupID parameter, and I can't find it (!!!! :bangwall: ).

(Even though, as you say, I'd probably just use Surfaces to delineate between line weights, still, it'd be good to know where that field is, and it gives me yet another cudgel with which to beat NewTek's 'documentation'.)

Celshader
09-25-2011, 12:39 PM
When using "Silhouette Edges" I get an uneven line (see attached).

AA=10. Simple object, attached.

Why is this so?
How do I avoid it?



Thanks.

Edges are 3D cylinders drawn in space. They can be occluded (http://www.celshader.com/classic/comp_ink/tech.html) by the geometry that shares their space.

Try lowering the Edge Z-Scale from its default of 1.0 to .998 so that they are drawn 99.8% of the distance between the camera and the geometry that generated them. If you lower the Edge Z-Scale too much, too many of the Edges will get drawn on top of the fish, as though the geometry was transparent.

The default Edge Z-Scale used to be .998. This was dangerous to use with cameras that were far, far away from the subject matter. For example, look at the bangs on the hair of this character (http://celshader.com/gallery/angel/angel2.html) that was rendered with a high-zoom lens and an Edge Z-Scale of .998.

1.0 is the "safe" setting for Edge Z-Scale, but it's OK to lower it slightly on a shot-by-shot basis.

nickdigital
09-25-2011, 01:44 PM
(Even though, as you say, I'd probably just use Surfaces to delineate between line weights, still, it'd be good to know where that field is, and it gives me yet another cudgel with which to beat NewTek's 'documentation'.)

I rarely use the Spreadsheet as I've always felt it was crash prone.

You should be able to find the Group ID in your instance of unReal where you add unReal. It default to a value of 0. In the unReal panel under the Pixel Filter area there will be a long list of Group IDs. There should be an asterisk next to all the IDs that you have in your scene.

I'm considering doing a video tutorial series on unReal. Is there enough interest out there?

erikals
09-25-2011, 02:03 PM
...I'm considering doing a video tutorial series on unReal. Is there enough interest out there?

,... maybe do a poll...?
(no celshader guy myself...)

paulhart
09-25-2011, 02:10 PM
nickdigital, jeric_synergy, Celshader, all efforts to make this more user friendly are encouraged. I has the potential to be a distinguishing quality choice for Lightwave illustators, animators, arch/viz, medical, etc. but it isn't very user friendly. Video tutorials and more comprehensive manuals would help. I wish Newtek and the developers were working together. I would like to see it on-screen (VPR?) preview to tweak, and presets of different styles. The settings and outcomes are a bit hit and miss now, and I have yet to generate a convincing variable (thick/thin) line.

Celshader
09-25-2011, 02:23 PM
The settings and outcomes are a bit hit and miss now, and I have yet to generate a convincing variable (thick/thin) line.

I use Edges for 99.5% of my celshading work because they are stable during an animation and easy to predict in their behavior:


Sihouette Edges highlight the shared polygonal edges between two polygons where one polygon faces the camera and the other is turned away from the camera.
Surface Borders represent shared polygonal edges where each polygon on either side of that edge has a different surface name.
Sharp Creases represent shared polygonal edges that are not smoothed over by the Smoothing Angle of the surface.
Unshared Edges represent edges that belong to only one polygon.


It's true that Silhouette Edges will always look like technical pen. Because of the above rules, though, the other three Edge types do not shift from frame-to-frame and can be faked with geometry and texture maps.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2011, 03:11 PM
Try lowering the Edge Z-Scale from its default of 1.0 to .998 so that they are drawn 99.8% of the distance between the camera and the geometry that generated them. If you lower the Edge Z-Scale too much, too many of the Edges will get drawn on top of the fish, as though the geometry was transparent.
Thanks Jen, that was a crystal-clear description of that parameter.

-- I wonder if someone somewhere would find a use for that for going above 1.0?

Celshader
09-25-2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks Jen, that was a crystal-clear description of that parameter.

-- I wonder if someone somewhere would find a use for that for going above 1.0?

I doubt it. 1.0 already represents 100% of the distance between the polygonal edge highlighted by the Edge and the camera. Higher values would push the polygonal edges behind the object.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2011, 03:36 PM
I doubt it. 1.0 already represents 100% of the distance between the polygonal edge highlighted by the Edge and the camera. Higher values would push the polygonal edges behind the object.
Indeed, but what if the surface were translucent? (Obviously, this is not a cel-shade thing.)

One of the charms of LightWave is that lots of parameters CAN be set to nonsensical values, and people find uses for the damndest things. This quaint practice differentiates LW from the more buttoned-down, corporate applications.

Celshader
09-25-2011, 03:58 PM
Indeed, but what if the surface were translucent? (Obviously, this is not a cel-shade thing.)

One of the charms of LightWave is that lots of parameters CAN be set to nonsensical values, and people find uses for the damndest things. This quaint practice differentiates LW from the more buttoned-down, corporate applications.

Well, a Z-Scale value of 0.0 reveals all Edges generated by the object, as though it was transparent.

A Z-Scale higher than 1.0 would hide all Edges behind the object. I can't think of a use for that.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2011, 04:27 PM
Here's a link to an explanation written by a native-English speaker:

http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/UnReal_ToonTracer:_Tips%2C_Tricks%2C_and_Lessons_% 28English-language_version%2C_2006_Edition%29

Can't vouch for it, but at least it exists, although it was written back in 2006.

probiner
09-25-2011, 04:50 PM
Would be lovely to have the option to have lines/edges be drawn by world size and not screen size, with no perspective and dependent on render resolution.

It would make the inverse edge thickness trick a lot more interesting to deal with heavy wire stuff. And edge drawing relative to its disatance to camera, accurate.

Attachments: Same scene and settings, only different render sizes.

Cheers

Celshader
09-25-2011, 05:05 PM
Would be lovely to have the option to have lines/edges be drawn by world size and not screen size, with no perspective and dependent on render resolution.

To a point, we have that option right now with the "Shrink Edges With Distance" checkbox on the Edges tab of the Object Properties panel.

The shrinking seems to get applied to the edges as a whole instead of individual edges, however.

probiner
09-25-2011, 06:09 PM
That option works, so and so, for edges, not for other 'Line' render: Surface's "Render Outlines" and Object's 2 Point Poly chains, both can be shaded with negative thickness, while Edge render can't.

But ok, were are talking about edges here, sorry :3

erikals
09-25-2011, 06:59 PM
...might be an idea...?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhtMT1uQHz0

erikals
09-26-2011, 08:12 AM
interesting... ;]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATwHHu1xkI

  

4dartist
09-26-2011, 09:34 AM
Uhg. I found this thread from searching for help on edges and I REALLY wish that Japanese plug in was available for the mac.

I need the Silhouette Edge rendered on a lot of models for my client and the gaps are just killing me. No matter how many AA passes I make I can still see gaps. If I adjust the sub-d level the gaps move but don't go away. I need the lines to be uniform so using a incidence trick would just drive me nuts.

I tried .998 and .9999 on the Z and it doesn't help. .998 actually starts showing too much on this small nuts on the model.

Anyone know of any Mac edge rendering plug ins? :)

nickdigital
09-26-2011, 10:19 AM
Anyone know of any Mac edge rendering plug ins? :)

I think you might be out of luck if you're on a Mac. Sorry.

4dartist
09-26-2011, 10:26 AM
ya, figures. I'm going to have to buy windows and dual boot someday. What a pain though..

jeric_synergy
09-27-2011, 09:42 AM
Perfect opportunity for one of those "Kickstarter" projects.

First dev to make a Mac version gets all the marbles.

erikals
09-28-2011, 08:46 AM
 
on request, a bit more detailed explanation,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhx8xZKRIZs

 

probiner
09-28-2011, 09:58 AM

on request, a bit more detailed explanation,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhx8xZKRIZs



I guess the focus plane should be at "infinite" , otherwise you just present farther edges with more thickness :S. And rendering out the noise... hmm

erikals
09-28-2011, 10:13 AM
 
no idea, hehe,... :]
might be, i'll have to look more into it later on... :]
 

probiner
09-28-2011, 10:18 AM
corrected, meant infinite, not 0

daforum
09-29-2011, 03:51 PM
Perfect opportunity for one of those "Kickstarter" projects.

First dev to make a Mac version gets all the marbles.

+1:thumbsup:

erikals
01-28-2012, 08:16 AM
interesting trick...
Thick Lines for Real-Time Cel Shading

http://www.chrisevans3d.com/tutorials/cel_lines/

 

nickdigital
01-28-2012, 09:25 AM
I've used this trick before when I didn't know about unReal. The Danny Phantom probe in the LightWave gallery was done with this technique.