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View Full Version : things we really need in LW8 for Serious production



spigolo
10-12-2003, 07:42 AM
Hi, I use lightwave since version 3.5.My studio does mostly architectural visualization and video simulation of archeologicsal themes.

I don't want to speak here about the need of a rewriting of LW rendering engine expecially about radiosity, there has been many threads and I agree totally with them, in the latest time i had sadly to turn to 3dS max and v-ray to have an human render time and more controll about lights.

We understood that we will not see many changes in Lw8 about this, probabily in next coming releases (8.5?) ok but I really hope that newtek has fixed the biggest problems of Ligtwave which is the Antialiasing.

I'm tired to see that even with enanched High AA our animations flickers and we have to turn crazy in postproduction to try to fixes this problem while other people render (with others packages)in less time without any sorts of flickering.
Newtek can put the most wonderful tools in Lw8 but if they dont fix this issue they are unuseful for me.
The highest level of AA of lightwave is similar to the standard level of other software and this is unbeliavable!!!!

I'm very curious to see the workflow enanchements of LW8, in the past lightwave was a very fast interface software to use, but now it opens so many windows that sometimes even I get lost in it.
Sometimes Newtek may also copy something from other software.
ie: think about the modeler, you select a polygon and you want to subdivide it many times, first time you select the tool you have to answer to a requester, but way you can't repeat the command again, you have to click again at the subdive button answer again at the requester and go on, why we can't do like in Softimage where when you want to use the same preset of a tool you just need to click the middle button of the mouse and the software executes your latest choice of that tool. this simplify the workflow and can be used in many areas of the software.
Also please newtek make multyselection with the use of shift and ctrl buttons, it's a shame that we cannot use this in the scene editor or expecilly in the list of inclusion exclusion of light and objects, my scenes have always hundreads of lights and of objects, sometimes it took me hours to exclude hundreads of objects from a light as i have to click them each!!! When my friends that uses Softimage or houdini sees this kind of thinghs they starts to laugh and say that those things are those that makes the differences in productions time between softwares

I still love lightwave and I hope that Lw 8 will surprise me, but If i will not see those things fixed I will have necesssarily to turn to other software as it's hard to see that your concurrence does better works just as they have software with better AA fasterworkflows etc. etc.

Matt
10-12-2003, 08:45 AM
I have to agree, AA in LW is in need of an update! Especially the speed.

papou
10-12-2003, 11:53 AM
i have to agree too.
All render speed problem come from slow AA. (who can render 32 times to get Xhigh AA?)

spigolo
10-12-2003, 01:00 PM
Its also a problem of the way AA is calculated, even with high antialiasing you have flicker expecially with small little lines it seems that the software doesn't know to which pixel assign the drawings, so they jump from a pixel to onother one ( i think it's a problem of sub pixel) creating a terrible flikering.

Another issue that newtek must absolutely put in Lw8 are the local coordinates in the modeler, it doesent motter if they had new tools but please let us draw along faces and not becom crazy every time you have to work with non planar (to axes) surfaces.

Also I hope that in Lw8 there will be one only source for images, I mean I don't want to open an object in the modeler and see that it loads again the some textures that the objects has in the layout with the results that when you have objects with 500 mb of textures (it happens often to me) I have one gb of texture (layout and modeler)..

j3st3r
10-13-2003, 03:28 AM
I had just the same problems when we made cinematic for the game Platoon...Now, I use Maya for animating, and Mental Ray for rendering. Maya has other problems, almost as frustrating as LW`s problems. So do not expect miracle from any package. I heard that XSI is very reliable, but I couldn`t make friendship with XSI yet...So I stick with the model in LW animate in Maya method...

Ooops. OT: I raed an itnerestnig atrcile. It`s aubot taht eevn the letetrs are mixed in a word, but the frist and lsat leettr is on palce we can raed the snteence bceause we raed the wrod as a whole not ltteer by lteter. Is it right?

Hervé
10-13-2003, 09:30 AM
Totally right Jester... and you proved it...

Errr... I am 100 % OK with you Spigolo.

Nemoid
10-13-2003, 12:44 PM
I agree with you Spigolo, AA in Lw is one of the weakest points
( ok maybe a trick would be tweaking or also turning off adaptive sampling , wich causes great probs sometimes). actually, the rendering engine needs a good rework as we all know, and lights too.
recently I read a good articke about Vray. never used Max, but it seemed to really rock, even compared to other rendering engines.

unfortunately Nt said recently that rendering will not have huge improvements in this release, but I think that it will be the 2nd thing to work on after CA.

also a good thing would be selling separately a module connection to Vray or MR for those users wich need it

but I think that when Nt will work on rendering we will see interesting things at all.

other issues are relative to separation between Layout and modeler.

Krix
10-13-2003, 07:43 PM
Hi,

"and I hope that Lw 8 will surprise me, but If i will not see those things fixed I will have necesssarily to turn to other software as it's hard to see that your concurrence "

An ultimatum?

:D

I guess not.

;)

I've checked the careers page on this site, and as I see the rendering engineer position is not open anymore what could mean that the dudes hired THE people and they started to improve the whole render engine to give us (one of) the best again in the near future. I believe that Lightwave's AA is not that bad though.

Can you please tell us what was flickering? Maybe we can give you some useful advise if not, sharing experience is always a good thing anyway.

Cheers,
Krix

P.S.: Is it your gallery Spigolo?
http://usuarios.lycos.es/threedsign/galeria.htm

spigolo
10-14-2003, 12:37 AM
Krix,
It's not an ultimatum, My love for lightwave is still big (expecially now that I'm using Max ) but It's sad to me to see that sometimes NT focus on fireworks when they miss the real essencial tools.

Flickering is the on-off effect that you see expecially on tiny little vertical lines..

No that's not my gallery, my site www.3dsign.it is still under developement we use it only to post work in progress to our customers in the reserved area, but if you want to see some pictures of mine you can go to www.paginegialle.it (the italian yellow pages) and type "rendering" in the first field and "Firenze" in the second one, I'm the first in the list, you may click on "catalogo" and there is a short gallery of pictures (not very much high resolution)

Cheers,

Krix
10-14-2003, 12:58 AM
Hi,

Nice images! Can't wait too see them in higher res. and the rest of the site. When is it going to be available?

"Flickering is the on-off effect that you see expecially on tiny little vertical lines.. "

Yeah dude...I think this is what I thought...

:)

I mean, what was flickering? High res texture, procedural texture, or GI shading, area light shadow...? What do you think what cause the flickering what even the Enhanced High AA couldn't filter out?

Cheers,
Krix

juanjgon
10-14-2003, 02:16 AM
For me antialiasing is most important feature to improve in LW rendering, because it affect all users, not only GI users. Actually it is terrible to animate scenes with small details, even with high antialising sets flikering is terrible ... perhaps NT should see Cinema 4D renderer .... 256 samples as default in scaline pass !!!. And please ... implemet actuall texture filtering methods, LW filtering is outdated too ...

Perhaps we can live without good GI, but we can´t live with this antialiasing issues in animation ....

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

spigolo
10-14-2003, 02:30 AM
Hi!!
I'm happy to see that I'm not alone to talk about this!

And if we really want to talk about serious features to implement in Lightwave I would like to have finally the possibility to animate modeling Operation.

Lw is the only software that doesen't allow this , sometimes you have to get crazy with endomorphs (hat I like but for specific issue) just to make an animated extrusion maybe along a path..

Even 3dSMAx does this...

Regards

Krix
10-14-2003, 03:32 AM
Hi!

"And if we really want to talk about serious features to implement in Lightwave I would like to have finally the possibility to animate modeling Operation. "

Well...that will be the integration of the modeler and the layout. Where point level animation is just natural. But not in the near future.

I didn't say I cannot imagine that Lightwave produces image sequences where pixels are flickering. The only thing I asked for to tell me what situation it happens to you. Because it's just too general. Every renderer produces flickering more or less.
So guys come on! Tell me some details! Tell me an example what happened to you recently. Please!

Or create a simple scene file, and I can check it out, and experience the same thing.

Cheers,
Krix