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palpal
09-02-2011, 06:02 PM
I am used to do all my 3d works inside Lightwave... I am quite happy with that because I can do a lot in there, but man the last few years or so I am frustrated as I really do not see new major things happening... I see a lot in a way and they are all so big and technical with new formats and all and new imports and exports and all, camera movements from the hand held cam and all...AVATAR were great but that is not what I am working with... I do work for companies that are a lot lower than a production like that... I just do not want a render hub, I want a software where I can create more things with ease... it is fantastic but it do me no help in the day to day work, the day to day work were newtek were the best in the past... and that were the success formula as I see it as all could use it and get longer down the road than in other software... I know of all these new stuff and all but in my day to day work and in my pipeline to get it done with more than a rotating logo or a studio setup with phones or the like... I want more now... want to brak objects want to pour fluids over the scene, want to have super dynamics and the works now... want to have rigs that do not break and all... all... I really do not see good work on display that much as in the past too... what is happening here? What is happening to my beloved lightwave... When modo releases a new plugin called recoil they do it in a fashion that I really want to use that... but on lightwave we have nothing like this? Is it me that are dead wrong again? is it me that am the fool here... I want to use lightwave but man I find it more and more not attractive for me... I love it but I just do not get the thrill out of it as I always did in the past... why? I do not want to see animation or stills I saw 3 years ago... I want to see new stuff that are created now or really not far behind... more professional videos and so on newtek present me with but still... I mean most of the fantastic work done in a lot of the films are from way back versions of lightwave... whyI want to see work done by artists using the software... it is so quiet over here and over at spinquad and in the gallery at newtek main site and all... I get the fright here... I want to be thrilled again, I want to use it I want to be shown new stuff that other packages can do today.

I have just recently given away my renderfarm with 25 machines because I really do not want to operate a renderfarm... newtek... set up a renderfarm where we can buy cheap rendertime... from inside lightwave... show us how to create new things like blender fluids and fast to animate rigs for characters... let us be creative again... I am sorry for beeing a bastard posting this but it do not happen anything on the newtek related sites anymore that are really amazing and insirational... want it crave it...

I have invested in new NVIDIA cards but really have not a great upgrade in speed when I work compared to other softwares that I have tested out... want to have that!

Call me a fool but man I want inspiration back now... I want it soon.... Inspire me in the pipeline of several machines with modern graphics cards and cpu s and ram and all... want more now... I just model something simple... and to me it is so slow compared to other software, it still do not let me animate at blazing speed as a 10-200 dollar version of messiah does... why is that? They are such a small team... please once and for all update the display drivers or what it is... lightwave is useless for animation in realtime... make it use worthy at least... In messiah I can add a object and displace it with like a zbrush map and add a normal map and all and animate the rig in such a speed... it is realtime dudes and have been for so many years... in lightwave the same setup takes like 2 second to update a frame... it is horrible... and totally beyond what is good... it is bad!

I do not want to bake the radiosity and sit idle for that to be done... If I can bake it manually you can add a bake and render scene button also... do it simple for me so that it is a workhorse... I want things to work, I do not want to get on the site of Except site and read something far and long and test for days... I just want to press low, medium high or what ever more... help us out here as we can not be nerds on all things all of us... we simply do not have that time anymore... I am not 18 anymore... help me more... With fprime I can render radiosity without any bugs why can I not do that inside LW? That is so strange to me... but then again rendering wit frime the LW error message destroys that too as it pauses the rendering for me all the way to me pressing do not want to send error message and then press continue... why the f....ck is that so... after all these years? It must be a simple task to solve... make it just press no and then yes to continue for me then... be childish be simple be logical again... do not want all these hassles anymore...

Some years ago you all made me a fool for saying the same ting, but now you must prove me wrong, this can not be right anymore... I want the goods now! They all must have it now soon... realtime feedback for animation... that is the whole key.... the right key and the only key... if you have this you also have the same for all other work... it must be much faster... have like 12 gig of ram and new expencive NVIDIA cards and it feels like on the amiga back in the days in a way... god damn it!

jasonwestmas
09-02-2011, 06:31 PM
Sounds like you need an application DEDICATED to specialFX and dynamics. Outside of some volumetrics stuff, LW may not have what you need for full realism. LW is more like an all arounder generalist app.

palpal
09-02-2011, 06:49 PM
That is exactly what I am, a all rounder generalist! And I really do not see how I can be that with lightwave anymore... that were my point mostly here... You nailed that in a way or indeed poked into what I feel... Because if I were a specialist I could not use lightwave for other than rendering maybe... in the past I could do more and still be what clients called me... a guru in 3d animation stills and the works, even I am a all rounder generalist! I want to be the one that can do it all, like in the past with lightwave I could be better than the rest, now I can not be that good or great in a way... I can be good but now it is too much workarounds and hidden nerd treasures to make me be that... www.flottaltsaa.no is my company home page, it is good work but all is from 2006 or before I think... I feel captured in old stuff here... Want to progress more be greater, just because I can promise you all that I am greater than that old work on there...

I do not even need full realism as I regard that to be for the biggest productions, I just want to be able to create something that still is cool in a way, like in the past... inside my own realism frames... but with more time savers along my way! I still want to progress and that is my main concern here.. I feel I am not progressing!

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/syvertsen/1.html

That is me, I created with my partners as freelance artists all inside LW at that time, I felt I were creating at that time something better than the next freelance artist, I have the same time and urge today but I just do not get the hard work that still is inside lightwave now... that interview were in 2005...... it is no or almost no more things that help me create or do these things better today in my mind and that is really bad for me! The work on that newtek site were all before HD format were common... it is really old! imagine that!

About full realism... LW do have that in its render, it has had that for many years if you do use it proper. That is also my point... man is it just a render hub?

That is a shame!

jasonwestmas
09-02-2011, 08:04 PM
Yeah I don't disagree with you about where LW is when compared to the modern 3D industry. And I won't haggle with you about what a true generalist needs most the time. You probably want to see more out of NT than hear me talk about what I would do if I were you but. . .

I will say this though, if you really want to be a generalist with the best tools at your disposal and still want to use LW render, I would use two or more 3D applications and use them for their strengths. I currently use Lightwave, Messiah and Zbrush together most of the time. There are so many options between those three apps. that I usually don't need more than what they offer. For video game projects I usually have to use Max for animation.

If you need a lot, and I mean a lot of fluids, cloth, hair, Fire and Smoke and hard body dynamics I personally would abandon Lightwave all together and invest in a package that specializes in that, there are at least 4 other apps out there that do that kind of stuff OUT OF THE BOX full time and without holding back. There is no current indication (except two beta plugins. . . ibounce and turbulence) that NT or anyone else will bring these things into LW to a full time professional level.

Otherwise you should be able to come up with some reasonable and beautiful stuff between Lightwave and another app. like messiah. I mean you really just have to weigh the pros and cons of the software you do have and make the leap. Pleading to NT will do you no good, I say put your emotional energy and time into something that will make things easier on you and help you to achieve your own artistic vision.

akademus
09-02-2011, 10:28 PM
I do as well feel that way sometimes. I'm not going to compare LW with other apps as its pointless because they all have their flaws, sometimes very serious ones.

As an artist I want to create things, without being held back by a software. So far, since 1997, LW has proven to be the fastest work horse to turn great results quickly. I still haven't seen anything else like it. I observed some great artists working in Maya and Softimage and Cinema4D as well, and it always takes them tons and tons of preparations and tedious tweaking and I always felt, yes given that amount of time I could definitely have better results. I could tweak every surface, light and radiosity settings until I'm blue in the face and still got it better and more refined looking.

Why would I spend 15 days tweaking one shot when I can have it in five? That is not only money wise valid reason I also don't want to spend 15 days of my life tweaking one shot.

My workflow is straight forward Modeler-Zbrush-Lightwave-Aftereffects.
Modeler, although outdated, is still a fast and reliable way of modeling for me. Speed is what I find crucial in this stage, whether you are working alone or in team. When you are in team, everybody waits for you as modeler at that stage. Riggers, animators, even lighting artists who want to block out their scenes and RND things. You absolutely have to yield results and you have to get them right and fast.
Zbrush, no quicker way to get stuff detailed and great looking with couple of strokes. Usually, it doesn't take more than a good normal map to get the details back into LW.
Layout, again quick and straight forward way to texture, light and render stuff. Yes, we all could use better render pass manager, but with recent additions of AELink, things are just getting sweeter.
After Effects, heck I even use it for stills nowdays. I'd like to see Photoshop acting more like AE today as opposed to other way around. Easy to learn and great of capabilities. Even poorer quality shots from LW turn around to be great with couple of hand made passes and some tweaking and touch ups.

As I said, as an artist I don't want to waste time dealing with complex fluids and make hairy beasts, simpler stuff yes, but, if the job requires I'd rather hire TD to do it and pay for the solution.

At the end of the day, LW so far saved me so much time and more often than not, I was done before the deadline and have enough spare time to use at my own will. Yes it has issues, but so does others. You know the flaws of the software you use and know and others seem better just because you haven't see theirs.

Best of luck my friend!

erikals
09-03-2011, 02:50 AM
...want to break objects (search iBounce, or use Blender) want to pour fluids over the scene, (Blender again (http://www.blendernation.com/2011/01/03/fluids-in-real-time-with-opencl/), or use expensive RealFlow, Turbulence4D plugin might have it in the future, yes, the future is a long time from now... :\

... what is happening here? What is happening to my beloved lightwave...
Core took the crash, but from rumors NT is working on something cool, i hope i hope...

When modo releases a new plugin called recoil they do it in a fashion that I really want to use that...
yes, but recoil is not all that from what i can see, look at the iBounce LW plugin, it really rocks, hope it is released soon...

also check LWplugin Turbulence4D for smoke...



just to conclude, as far as dynamics and VFX, LW has basically just bought plugins to add/ or fix it.
(but so has 3DsMax)

it is so quiet over here
nah, you think :]
and over at spinquad... not too many hang over at SQ afaik

I want to be thrilled again,
VPR was good though (not magic, but good)

newtek... set up a renderfarm where we can buy cheap rendertime... from inside lightwave...
[absolutely :]


animate rigs for characters...
check RHiggit, time saver...

amazing and insirational...
posted some LW renders here, very neat ones, but not much VFX related stuff as you can see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRD4ladUSOc&list=PL36DAD32935586C03&feature=plpp
sidenote, might make some video tutorials when i get time on some cool VFX tricks...

I just model something simple... and to me it is so slow compared to other software,
not compared to 3DsMax from what i've heard :]


it still do not let me animate at blazing speed as a 10-200 dollar version of messiah does... why is that?
good question, LW is slow at polyhandling, sorry to say...
They are such a small team... please once and for all update the display drivers or what it is... lightwave is useless for animation in realtime...
it is realtime dudes and have been for so many years... in lightwave the same setup takes like 2 second to update a frame... it is horrible... and totally beyond what is good... it is bad!

I do not want to bake the radiosity and sit idle for that to be done... If I can bake it manually you can add a bake and render scene button also... do it simple for me so that it is a workhorse...
superditto, i know Sensei truart has a plugin, not sure just how good or easy though...

With fprime I can render radiosity without any bugs why can I not do that inside LW? That is so strange to me...
i read perspective cam hates non-planar polys, might be the problem

but then again rendering whit frime the LW error message destroys that too as it pauses the rendering for me all the way to me pressing do not want to send error message and then press continue...
send scene and content to fogbugz, see my link in signature below

... have like 12 gig of ram and new expencive NVIDIA cards and it feels like on the amiga back in the days in a way... god damn it!
hehe :] hm, maybe a 2core CPU would be better... could very well be, but yeah, NT, please fix.

wow, long post...

zarti
09-03-2011, 03:49 AM
hi palpal ,

my personal opinion generally is that of Jason ; expand your set of tools within your financial limits and requirements you have toward the tools .

being emotionally attached to a piece of tech , esp when underground bigger ' vectors ' drive and shape the tech , do not help . imho .

your original post was emotionally subtle , but take this just as a suggestion ..



.cheers

erikals
09-03-2011, 04:24 AM
What socks have you been smoking? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdxwWKBy4gU&feature=player_embedded#!
I doubt LW could match 2011 which, from a performance POV he totally trashes in another video.....

from what i've heard

i could no doubt be wrong, as i haven't tested it myself, thank you. ꞉P

and change that ugly icon of yours!
 

palpal
09-03-2011, 05:31 AM
erikal : The machines I work on are 8cores.

Sorry for me beeing emotional... but that is still what I am... And I do got a some points in there if you read it again. It is just all the slowdowns I got... I have to know about this plugin from a german dr.swartzekrank and the only way to find his plugin is to get on the google and search for something obscure and then onto a link from 5 years ago and from that over to his page and then remember to press slash hidden page after the adress on the contact form page and then I get a html page with some info and can download something..... oagdqhgdshjsd..... everything is so nerdy these days... I will not import a object on my super computers and I want to see my animation and interface test have to render it for me so that I can see it... ha ha ha ha... what is that? really?

The MAX update is massive I have heard, and seen from some friends of mine... the thing is that I love lightwave... but my love for her is bearing me down these days...

erikals
09-03-2011, 05:50 AM
erikal : The machines I work on are 8cores.

Sorry for me beeing emotional... but that is still what I am... And I do got a some points in there if you read it again.

absolutely :]
i agree, on all points :]

just posted some options, plugins, that could save the day.
i know my post might have come across like "why don't you just use plugin X"

...it wasn't what i meant though, they where more meant as life-savers on a cloudy day :]

erikals
09-03-2011, 05:51 AM
p.s. i don't think an 8 core cpu is good to use in modeler, afaik, LW modeler will only use 1 core... (?!)

palpal
09-03-2011, 05:53 AM
could we meet up a day and disquss some of these things here in oslo? I have office at grunerløkka.

erikals
09-03-2011, 06:05 AM
could we meet up a day and disquss some of these things here in oslo? I have office at grunerløkka.

sure thing, busy this week, but i can call you next week?
i'll just call you on your mobile (i'll find it at flottaltsaa.no) :]

*Pete*
09-04-2011, 10:07 AM
Hey guys...if you need a third LW-nostalgic for your meeting, send me a PM..i live in Oslo as well ;)

jwiede
09-05-2011, 11:28 AM
When modo releases a new plugin called recoil they do it in a fashion that I really want to use that...
yes, but recoil is not all that from what i can see, look at the iBounce LW plugin, it really rocks, hope it is released soon...
What's missing from Recoil as an Bullet RBD implementation in your opinion?

Personally, I find it a very complete, reliable, and easy-to-configure implementation of Bullet rigid-body dynamics (RBD).

bazsa73
09-05-2011, 11:43 AM
hey, I could go there too, though Helsinki is a bit off but we could eat a whole salmon raw and dance in thick socks in the woodlands he?

erikals
09-05-2011, 02:24 PM
What's missing from Recoil as an Bullet RBD implementation in your opinion?

Personally, I find it a very complete, reliable, and easy-to-configure implementation of Bullet rigid-body dynamics (RBD).

that's it, it's only RBD, no particles or cloth.
for RBD though i cannot say, haven't tested it.
i think it's very cool that Modo takes that direction though.
(btw, hope it supports weights, envelopes, texture channel)