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dnch
08-19-2011, 02:59 AM
hello, i may be stupid but after a while of the box laying on my desk, i decided to install LW10, mainly because i need some cloth calculations and i asumed there is bullet for that in core.. well so i installed LW10 but there is no core, no bullet... am i missing something? i am part of HC but i didnt read forums for a while

Lewis
08-19-2011, 03:06 AM
hello, i may be stupid but after a while of the box laying on my desk, i decided to install LW10, mainly because i need some cloth calculations and i asumed there is bullet for that in core.. well so i installed LW10 but there is no core, no bullet... am i missing something? i am part of HC but i didnt read forums for a while

Hehe you ah you are missing A LOT. Basically CORE is no more, NT abandoned CORe as stand alone application, instead they "plan" to integrate CORE Tech into current LW, sometime in future (nobody knows when). Check their announcement from ~40 days ago.

cheers

dnch
08-19-2011, 03:08 AM
holy **** so no bullet for me? why did i buy LW10 anyway? it just looks like reskinned 9.6 with VPR

Matt
08-19-2011, 03:10 AM
LW 10 is more than just that.

dnch
08-19-2011, 03:13 AM
well but its not what i bought it for aparently, so is there something else than that old useless Cloth FX? (ok i can calculate flags and cloth on a box, awesome)

rsfd
08-19-2011, 03:19 AM
holy **** so no bullet for me? why did i buy LW10 anyway? it just looks like reskinned 9.6 with VPR

NT offered a refund for those who are unhappy with the HC outcome.
Don't know if it still applies or already ran out, but
you may want to do a search in the HC forums and probably start with this one:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121214

dnch
08-19-2011, 03:47 AM
well done newtek, well done

prometheus
08-19-2011, 05:01 AM
If youre part of Hc program, you should be able to set up the core account
for download of the discountinued core module, but I donŽt know if they still provide it on the account pages.
If you can download the core module, then youŽd have to learn it with that environment and then export to lightwave 10..what a mess.

Lousy handling of newtek indeed.

I think youŽd do best to wait for bullet in LW 10, but then again no one can tell you here on the forums when that will arrive unfortunatly.

Michael

Yog
08-19-2011, 07:06 AM
well but its not what i bought it for aparently....
Don't worry, all is not lost.
If you buy the next few upgrades you will eventually get all that you paid for in Core .... possibly.

walfridson
08-19-2011, 07:07 AM
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121487

prometheus
08-19-2011, 07:10 AM
Don't worry, all is not lost.
If you buy the next few upgrades you will eventually get all that you paid for in Core .... possibly.

Possibly?

well..this is clouded in a veil of mist..
If Newtek could make such a promised to include all you paid for, they most certainly would have made such statement already.
Most likely they donŽt know how much they can pull off or put in LW10 that would match what was planned for core.

Michael

dnch
08-19-2011, 09:44 AM
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121487

yeah i know about this but its working only on simple centered objects for me and has no output

erikals
08-19-2011, 10:10 AM
for cloth there are currently 3 working plugins that work...

Blender, free... (export LW anim to Blender via fbx, make cloth, export Blender cloth to LW via MDD)
Marvelous Designer, $700
Syflex, $2200

Nicolas Jordan
08-19-2011, 11:10 AM
It would be cool to see a full implementation of Bullet in LW11.

OnlineRender
08-19-2011, 12:02 PM
It would be cool to see a full implementation of Bullet in LW11.

why wait till 11 its running on 9 and 10 atm .... Ibounce ?

Lewis
08-19-2011, 12:17 PM
It would be cool to see a full implementation of Bullet in LW11.

Hehe but what's "full implementation" ? Full buttons working when you simulate or fully integrated so it can talk to application nodal and can be used for various stuff?

colkai
08-20-2011, 03:03 AM
You could always use Bullet in Blender and export an MDD file / motion for LW the way you do for Blender fluids maybe?

As to Bullet in LW10, I'd suggest not waiting for that as I'd be very surprised indeed if Bullet made it into this release. If you can make Blender and LW work together, then you can at least get the job done.
I'd expect you'd be looking at LW11 or 12 for Bullet, more than likely they'll stay focused on rendering etc as that's where they seem to put the effort in historically speaking.
Add to that, Rob Powers comes from a pre-vis kinda world, thus the focus on VPR and the new camera stuff for LW10.
Could be there may be, possibly, a clearer picture after the much vaunted November announcements, bearing in mind the usual caveat of "forward looking and subject to change".

Titus
08-20-2011, 08:51 AM
You could always use Bullet in Blender and export an MDD file / motion for LW the way you do for Blender fluids maybe?

Not really. Bullet (hard body dynamics) in Blender is implemented aparently in the game engine, so you get simulation with variable FPS, it runs fine in Blender but very strange in LW.

Blender cloth can be exported with no issues to LW as MDD, though. The advantage is that blender cloth can be tweaked after the simulation, picking vertexes by hand or using a deformer. But in this forum you cannot talk about this.

Cageman
08-20-2011, 09:21 AM
Not really. Bullet (hard body dynamics) in Blender is implemented aparently in the game engine, so you get simulation with variable FPS, it runs fine in Blender but very strange in LW.

Blender cloth can be exported with no issues to LW as MDD, though. The advantage is that blender cloth can be tweaked after the simulation, picking vertexes by hand or using a deformer. But in this forum you cannot talk about this.

Well... maybe not without mentioning that you can do the same in LW as well through EditFX. Not the best workflow out there, but it works.

Philbert
08-20-2011, 06:01 PM
why wait till 11 its running on 9 and 10 atm .... Ibounce ?

While iBounce is amazing, at the moment it's still very much in beta and you can't render with it until the final release and we find out how much it will cost.

Sekhar
08-20-2011, 08:41 PM
reskinned 9.6 with VPR

Brilliantly succinct...NT should make it the tagline for 10.

colkai
08-21-2011, 04:54 AM
Not really. Bullet (hard body dynamics) in Blender is implemented aparently in the game engine, so you get simulation with variable FPS, it runs fine in Blender but very strange in LW.

Ahh bugger, didn't know dat. :)

hrgiger
08-21-2011, 07:14 AM
Well... maybe not without mentioning that you can do the same in LW as well through EditFX. Not the best workflow out there, but it works.

I would just ask if the interpolation is different in Blender then it is in LightWave? You can edit a point frame by frame with EditFX but it doesn't interpolate with a curve between frames and as such, I don't find it very useful.

hrgiger
08-21-2011, 07:25 AM
Hehe but what's "full implementation" ? Full buttons working when you simulate or fully integrated so it can talk to application nodal and can be used for various stuff?

Yeah, when I can plug a procedural surfacing node into a mesh node to define how to break it up when you plug that into a bullet simulation node network, then I will consider it a 'full implementation'.

GraphXs
08-22-2011, 07:43 AM
Bullet in Core didn't offer cloth anyways, so even if LW10 came with Core it wouldn't matter. The blender option sounds good, if it's simple cloth just use LW cloth fx!

Surrealist.
08-22-2011, 09:36 AM
Any use of cloth takes a lot of tweaking. The main difference between Blender and LightWave cloth is that Blender's self-collision actually works. Beyond that there are differences in behavior. And it takes getting used to Blender's cloth and much testing to find settings that work. But they both operate the same in essence.

Cloth simulation is about 95% the technique of how you do cloth simulation.

This little snippet here should be helpful. Much of it applies to any cloth simulation:

http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/softimage2012/en_us/userguide/

Cloth in LightWave works if you know how to use it. To get good effects you have to be willing to take the hit on calculation time. From there, just like the reference states it is a matter of finding a balance.

ncr100
08-22-2011, 02:32 PM
...
This little snippet here should be helpful. Much of it applies to any cloth simulation:

http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/softimage2012/en_us/userguide/
....

Plz recheck link - doesn't work for me.

Surrealist.
08-23-2011, 10:14 AM
Didn't realize the link only goes as far as the contents page. In that case you'll have to scroll down to Simulation/Cloth/About Cloth Simulation and also take a look at Setting up for Cloth Simulation.

If that is not working for you simply google Softimage to get to the Autodesk page and follow the documentation link.

You can find similar great information in the manual for Maya on Ncloth.

As it turns out all of the things I ran into with both Blender Cloth and LightWave cloth are, well, just things you run into with cloth no matter what you use. The difference is in how much built in control you have. In LightWave there are a bunch of cryptic settings. And you don't have a great deal of control over specific problems. You have to work around them as best as you can.

But what it boils down to is first understanding how to set up for and use cloth. This requires an understanding of the collision object - what to use and how - as well as the cloth object itself.

This is all completely aside from understanding the plugin.

After about two weeks or so of full time work in R&D on LW cloth I sort of "cracked the code" if you will. And later I read the manuals on cloth in other apps only to realize that I had in fact stumbled on already tried and true practices for cloth.

I had a similar experience with Blender cloth. But at the end of the day both Blender cloth and LigjtWave cloth have serious limitations for some CA production work. But they do work. And I'd say they are more or less on a par with each other in workability with Blender cloth going just a bit beyond LW but mot too far.

Where they both fall shot is in the level of control you have beyond just the basic settings. For that I am pretty sure you have to go to Ncloth or Syflex. But that is just theory as I have only read the manual information I have not tried them out fully yet.

wesleycorgi
08-23-2011, 11:27 AM
Where they both fall shot is in the level of control you have beyond just the basic settings. For that I am pretty sure you have to go to Ncloth or Syflex. But that is just theory as I have only read the manual information I have not tried them out fully yet.

I've been hearing good things about using the tools in Marvelous Designer. I haven't had a chance to play yet, though.

Surrealist.
08-24-2011, 08:32 AM
It certainly looks cool. It is just a matter of how you are going to integrate it in a workflow. I suppose there is some mdd support or something. Really nice if you want an eternal solution. But I think for most production work - for me - I like to keep things integrated in a tighter workflow if possible. But it is a real cool looking app for design purposes.

erikals
08-24-2011, 11:28 AM
...Cloth in LightWave works if you know how to use it.

no. still jitters. trust me on this one.

Sekhar
08-25-2011, 09:15 AM
May be you folks having trouble can post scenes and/or give specifics so we can all understand the limitations/workarounds?

Surrealist.
08-25-2011, 09:37 AM
no. still jitters. trust me on this one.

Yes it does.

This can happen for a few reasons. Probably the most common - and obvious - is when you have the distance between the collision object and the collision offset between the cloth object so close that they intersect.

So in fact you have what looks to be correct it is not actually correct. There is a force field around the cloth or collision object. This is why I always turn the collision object offset to 0. And I only use the Cloth offset.

So if the starting position of the cloth object before the simulation puts this force field past the boundary of the collision object you will have what amounts to trying to keep a rubber ball from bouncing by putting a board over it and holding it down.

Another reason is the quality setting. I think resolution is the label in LightWave.

This brings up the issue of simulation time.

To get production-worthy character animation cloth in LightWave it is a matter of balancing a few things. But just like rendering to get good quality you have to take the time hit. It is no different in cloth.

What can happen is if you have certain settings too high that don't need to be you can really shoot up the calculation time and you never get to the issue of the jitters because you don't dare touch that dial.

But if you do get all the other things working right and then it is just a matter of how long can you wait for a good simulation where the jitters are manageable depending on the shot distance.

I am pretty sure I had just about 0 jitters for this test. Certainly they are not visible from a long shot.

http://vimeo.com/2510767

A closer shot would men less geometry in that case you could bump up the resolution.

As I said there are serious limitations to LightWave cloth but it does work.

This is however a $895 program. To get better results I think you have to be willing to spend at least 3X that for something like Maya or Softimage (SI is around 2,995 I think Maya something like 3,495)

I like the SI solution because it comes with ICE and includes Lagoa which is not meant for characters but gives great cloth results as well as a host of other cool particle and fluid effects. Syflex on ICE from what I have seen is fairly impressive in terms of speed and control.

If you don't want to spend money Blender cloth will give you self collisions which expands the possibilities but is equally limited otherwise.

erikals
08-25-2011, 01:58 PM
hm,... calculation time 1 hour per garment?
how many polys?

ok, i will try once again,... afraid of the calculation time though...

 

Surrealist.
08-25-2011, 02:20 PM
That was with an old AMD FX 56 Chip. And -over an hour ;-)

For more details, follow the links I give on this page:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96147&highlight=Cloth+Mesh

There are also links to zip files of cloth tests with documentation.

Pretty much everything I found out about cloth is listed there someplace.

Here is the cloth object wires:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66477&d=1227786176

littlewaves
08-25-2011, 02:52 PM
is cloth STILL single threaded in 10.1?

seems if they at least addressed that it'd be a good stop gap until they can integrate something better.

For the money though Marvelous Designer is looking like a good option.

erikals
08-25-2011, 02:57 PM
well, Marvelous is $700... but yes, looks very good.

(thanks Richard, i will have a look... thanks again...)

littlewaves
08-25-2011, 03:08 PM
well, Marvelous is $700... but yes, looks very good.

depends what you want to do with it the cheaper personal edition allows some pro work apparently

"- 2D Data Sales: Licensee may distribute or sell any 2D images and 2D animations derived from his/her original works"

You'd need the personal edition plus the animation plugin but that still only comes to $300.

I may be misinterpreting the license agreement though

erikals
08-25-2011, 03:34 PM
btw, even on a 4 core 4,5 GHz, i have quite low calculation times, not sure i get how it's computed, it seems to use all threads, a little bit... (!) hmm,.. maybe a 1 core cpu would help...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97768&stc=1&d=1314308055

erikals
08-25-2011, 03:36 PM
depends what you want to do with it the cheaper personal edition allows some pro work apparently

yes, for stills Marvelous Designer has a good price, for 3D animation, still a good price, but a bit more...

littlewaves
08-25-2011, 04:32 PM
although apparently they do speed up some of their demonstration video by 4x which may give a bit of a false sense of wonder about how quickly it churns out simulations.

Guess when I get my new PC I'll download the demo and see what the real speeds are like.

Still.. I reiterate that LWs native cloth would be improved a lot if it was threaded.

I bought my first dual core machine 7 years ago. About time lightwave caught up.

Philbert
08-25-2011, 05:04 PM
Really, I used it on my 4 year old laptop and the simulation felt pretty quick. One weird thing is that you have to make sure the character you import is normal size, I accidentally imported a really huge character like what you sometimes get out of programs like max and the sim was really sluggish.

Surrealist.
08-26-2011, 04:27 AM
btw, even on a 4 core 4,5 GHz, i have quite low calculation times, not sure i get how it's computed, it seems to use all threads, a little bit... (!) hmm,.. maybe a 1 core cpu would help...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97768&stc=1&d=1314308055

It is the same for me in Blender. One of the biggest areas to reduce calculation time is omitting things that don't need calculation. If it is not ever going to collide remove it from the collision object. Head, eyes, hands feet, anything. I always have a different collision object for each thing I am calculating that is catered to what will be colliding. Remember it has to account for every point in the simulation.

But for this spring-type cloth like we have in LW and Blender it just seems the way it is. I have not tried Ncloth yet so I can't compare. But I saw video of a guy playing with the settings on a shirt in real time using Syflex and ICE. Have no idea what is comp specs were though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU