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Captain Chaos
08-12-2011, 08:33 AM
Is there any consensus on what the best tutorial is for doing character rigging?

nickdigital
08-12-2011, 08:38 AM
Rebel Hill's tutorials are good.
http://www.rebelhill.net/

speismonqui
08-12-2011, 05:04 PM
how about some mechanical rigging tutorials?
not the best ones but any?

nickdigital
08-12-2011, 05:19 PM
Is there something specific that you're looking for? Aside from a reverse piston or hydralic setup I don't think there's much difference between organic or mechanical rigging. The ideas and concepts would be the same.

stiff paper
08-13-2011, 04:34 AM
Mis posted links to couple of new tutorials not long ago. One was setting up train wheels and the other one was setting up pistons with a camshaft. I can't see his post right now and I'm too lazy to go looking any further (!!) but this is his website, with his tutorials: http://www.trhlogos.dk/

He also puts them up on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/mistube#g/u

speismonqui
08-13-2011, 08:52 PM
thanks for the help and links.

Captain Chaos
11-15-2011, 12:28 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I bought Rebel Hill's Rhiggit and I don't have to a clue how to even try to start with it. What I should have asked is "What's the best rigging tutorial for a f#cking idiot?"

More immediately, could one of you tell me where bone x-ray is in LW 9 layout?

Dexter2999
11-15-2011, 12:39 PM
He has a rigging tutorial series that is fairly thorough. There are three hours of free previews on his site.
http://www.rebelhill.net/html/rhr.html

daforum
11-15-2011, 01:53 PM
rebel hill's tutorials are good.
http://www.rebelhill.net/

+1 :)

OnlineRender
11-15-2011, 02:03 PM
+1 on the rebelhill , if you want to KNOW EVERYTHING rebelhill will blow you away with some of the stuff he does , its actually unreal how much this man knows about rigging

Captain Chaos
11-15-2011, 02:07 PM
its actually unreal how much this man knows about rigging

I'm not questioning it, and I own the videos. The problem is I'm starting from ZERO.

Waves of light
11-15-2011, 02:21 PM
If you are having problems with understanding Mr Hills tuts, then leave them and come back to them when you feel ready.

Lino Grandi's Rigging Revealed was excellent. Started with an overview (shortcuts, the way he does it, menus, etc.) and then rigged a four-legged alien character. It came with LW10, but don't know if it's available a separate purchase.

wesleycorgi
11-15-2011, 02:39 PM
If you are having problems with understanding Mr Hills tuts, then leave them and come back to them when you feel ready.

Lino Grandi's Rigging Revealed was excellent. Started with an overview (shortcuts, the way he does it, menus, etc.) and then rigged a four-legged alien character. It came with LW10, but don't know if it's available a separate purchase.

I would concur. I got RH's stuff and it's all good stuff, but it can be a bit overwhelming.

After going over Lino's tute, RH's tutes became that much more accessible from a non-rigger like me.

Captain Chaos
11-15-2011, 02:44 PM
If you are having problems with understanding Mr Hills tuts, then leave them and come back to them when you feel ready.

Thanks. I wasn't criticizing the product, it's just that it was like handing a cigarette lighter to a chimp and expecting fire.

I'll check out the other tutorials. Howbout the bone x-ray thing?

Waves of light
11-15-2011, 03:20 PM
Howbout the bone x-ray thing?

I think you are referring to the option to show bones through your mesh. You can toggle this feature in any of your layout viewports. Makes rigging a lot easier.

RebelHill
11-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Bone xray is next to the view dropdown in viewport bar.

The tuts of mine do, I like to think, explain and cover everything for a complete noob to rigging... however, with some limit... notably the same as the autorigger.

"Some" knowledge is expected and needed... how to get to motion options, bone properties, some of the lil buttons available there, etc, etc... The reason I dont bother with this in the tuts, or rhiggit docs is simply cos most if not all those introductory bits can be found all over... probs most easily in any of the rigging or bone related things in the 24hr collection.

Lino's thing is also good... a lot of the same broad approaches as some of mine, but breezed over more. You may certinly find that a good intro to get u more ready for RHR... but I can promise u too, if after RHR you then go back and watch Lino's, ull see a bunch of things that suddenly make u go "so that's why he does it that way", etc.

jeric_synergy
11-16-2011, 09:31 PM
Lino Grandi's Rigging Revealed was excellent. Started with an overview (shortcuts, the way he does it, menus, etc.) and then rigged a four-legged alien character. It came with LW10, but don't know if it's available a separate purchase.
Ohhhh yeah: I had forgotten about this.

I'm eligible for that production: is it a (huge) download? :thumbsup:

Dexter2999
11-16-2011, 09:37 PM
I thought there was a time window for the download? Or was I mistaken?

jeric_synergy
11-16-2011, 10:12 PM
I sure hope you are.

Surrealist.
11-16-2011, 10:16 PM
If you can find it, try and pick up Timothy Albee's book on Character Animation for LightWave. I think he released a 9.x version but I am nor sure. In any case the ideas in that book would get you going from a beginner's status very well and you'd then have a good grounding to get going on more advanced things.

Sorry but I have to ask. Do you absolutely have to rig in LightWave? Or are you open to other alternatives and then bring animation in?

jeric_synergy
11-16-2011, 10:32 PM
Sorry but I have to ask. Do you absolutely have to rig in LightWave? Or are you open to other alternatives and then bring animation in?
Well, I could fire up Messiah. :D

Surrealist.
11-16-2011, 11:08 PM
Well, I could fire up Messiah. :D

Exactly. Just sayin'....:)

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 12:41 AM
But I'd really like to see what Lino has to say about LW rigging.

Surrealist.
11-17-2011, 02:17 AM
Me too. :-)

And actually I was just asking the OP the question. Just out of curiosity. And to simply point to the idea that there are other options.

Not really the place to go into pros and cons about LW Vs.... whatever but I think if you are going to animate in LW you should be aware there are options.

Waves of light
11-17-2011, 02:21 AM
I thought there was a time window for the download? Or was I mistaken?

It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the shop, so the window has probably closed. You could always try calling newtek CS and see if it's still available to purchase.

jeric_synergy
11-17-2011, 11:03 PM
It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the shop, so the window has probably closed. You could always try calling newtek CS and see if it's still available to purchase.
IMO it should be available for download to qualified customers forever.

Captain Chaos
12-15-2011, 08:52 AM
It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the shop, so the window has probably closed. You could always try calling newtek CS and see if it's still available to purchase.

Called newtek and they're not offering it anymore. I did however, watch someone else's copy.

I'm gradually piecing together what I need to do this. Unfortunately, while "rigging revealed" is more geared to beginners, it still makes way too many assumptions about what the user knows to go start to finish without consulting other sources.

If any experts are reading this and want to make some money, they could come out with a tutorial that shows how to rig a dopey little puppet with about 20 bones. No need to use the product as an opportunity to show everyone how smart they are.

Surrealist.
12-16-2011, 12:22 AM
lol

Timohty Albee's book would be good for you.:) I think it is fairly easy to follow and would get you up and running with a good grounding in the basics.

WilliamVaughan
12-16-2011, 08:03 AM
The tuts of mine do, I like to think, explain and cover everything for a complete noob to rigging...



I agree!

Captain Chaos
12-20-2011, 10:13 AM
I agree!

I don't. Again, I'm not disparaging the quality of the product, but as an actual complete noob to rigging I couldn't make sense of it. Both of you are experts (I've learned plenty from william vaughan tutorials), so your perception of the learning experience doesn't count.

I'm an illustrator, working mostly for print, and I teach print software to people all the time. The phrase I use the most is "Does that make sense to you?"

It doesn't matter if I understand it, they have to.

RebelHill
12-20-2011, 10:58 AM
I don't. Again, I'm not disparaging the quality of the product, but as an actual complete noob to rigging I couldn't make sense of it.

What bits did you find difficult to grasp as a noob... Things start out pretty pretty basic, but where abouts would u say u found your understanding drifting... or perhaps which sections, parts did u get to only to think there were things being done, or talked about that u needed more background coverage on earlier?

What did u think or find was missing that could or should have been included, or explained better?

Greenlaw
12-20-2011, 11:23 AM
Just curious but what part about the rigging training are you having difficulty getting past? Is it general stuff about using Layout? If that's the case, you might want to start with something more general like Dan Ablan's Lightwave 10 Essentials training over at Lynda.com. He covers everything from an introductory level, which includes the very basics for rigging. I think once you complete a general course like this, you will be better equipped to dive into specialty courses like Rebel Hill's training.

Here's the link to the training videos: Lightwave 10 Essential Training (http://www.lynda.com/LightWave-10-tutorials/Essential-Training/71924-2.html)

You need to have a Lynda.com account to watch all the videos. Lynda is a subscription service but it only costs $25 a month. It's 'all you can watch' and you can easily suspend the subscription before the month is up if you want to. A very good deal, IMO.

I have to confess I haven't watched Dan's LW 10 course on Lynda but I have watched some of his previous LW courses and his Modo training in the past and they're really quite good. I do have a Lynda account which I reactivate every now and then when I need a crash course in something (like when a big Adobe upgrade is released.) I've used Lynda.com for many years and have yet to sit through a bad course there.

(Hmm. I noticed that Dan now has a Modo 501 class on Lynda. I could use a refresher I guess.) :p

Hope this helps.

G.

Captain Chaos
12-20-2011, 01:47 PM
What bits did you find difficult to grasp as a noob... Things start out pretty pretty basic, but where abouts would u say u found your understanding drifting... or perhaps which sections, parts did u get to only to think there were things being done, or talked about that u needed more background coverage on earlier?

What did u think or find was missing that could or should have been included, or explained better?

I shouldn't have used the forum to complain about your product without talking to you directly. I'm sorry.

My background in lightwave is that I've been using it to model product illustrations for print media. I've never needed to rig anything.

I came into this not know how to parent anything, what a null was, etc. The closest I had come was drawing skelegons in modeler to move the corners of wrappers on candy bars. Beyond that, I was clueless.

I can't give you a real explanation of what I didn't follow because I was lost from the beginning. The material I watched started out in an environment that was completely unfamiliar to me. What I really need as a student is the software starting up with the default settings and "here's how to draw a bone". "If you parent this to that, it does this".

erikals
12-20-2011, 08:36 PM
 
rigging isn't learned in a day, far from it.

the only bad thing that can be said about RHR imo is that it covers too much.
but then again, how can that be a bad thing?

it takes time, if you don't understand it, watch it a second or a third time.
if you get caught in a corner, watch it again.


I came into this not know how to parent anything, what a null was, etc. The closest I had come was drawing skelegons in modeler to move the corners of wrappers on candy bars. Beyond that, I was clueless.

I can't give you a real explanation of what I didn't follow because I was lost from the beginning. The material I watched started out in an environment that was completely unfamiliar to me. What I really need as a student is the software starting up with the default settings and "here's how to draw a bone". "If you parent this to that, it does this".

this is all covered in detail in video 1 to 5...
maybe except for what a null "actually" is, but there's the manual for that.

again, there's no magic, just hard work, it takes time...

 

erikals
12-20-2011, 08:42 PM
how about some mechanical rigging tutorials?
not the best ones but any?

you are in luck :]

robotic movements >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=97659

 

RebelHill
12-21-2011, 04:02 AM
I shouldn't have used the forum to complain about your product without talking to you directly. I'm sorry.

Nonsense, its fine. But its always helpful to hear where folks aren't clicking with certain things, or stuff's going over their heads, for future reference and all.

All good to know.

chco2
12-21-2011, 04:11 AM
I haven't seen anything of the video itself, but Adam Gibson just released a rigging video for beginner. Its over 14 hours at just $19 dollars. Perhaps that covers your needs ? link: http://www.liberty3d.com/store/training/lightwave/
Wait a day or so and Liberty3D will have Christmas sale which off's another 30%!

Dexter2999
12-21-2011, 08:48 AM
Nonsense, its fine. But its always helpful to hear where folks aren't clicking with certain things, or stuff's going over their heads, for future reference and all.

All good to know.

Well, I have your Rigging course and it does define all of these things. What is a null? Covered. How to draw a bone? Covered. Parenting? Covered.

Maybe it is the speed at which it is covered? Maybe it is intimidating in both the speed and complexity?

I will tell the OP I have been watching this over and over. The information is there I'm just having issues I associate with getting older and I don't learn as fast as I did 20 years ago which I find very frustrating.

Also, be aware that not everyone learns the same way. And you need to be aware of how you learn best. Watching a video may seem the fastest and easiest. But without fundamental knowledge like "null", "parenting", etc. You may get more benefit from a written tutorial where you can move through steps at your own pace.

One of my all time favorite quotes;
I hear and I forget.
I see and I remember.
I do and I understand.
-Confucious

When applied to today's training methods, this means do the exercises. Don't just watch the videos. (Which I am often guilty of.) Because you have to "DO" to understand.

erikals
12-21-2011, 09:05 AM
Confused was a very smart man...

RebelHill
12-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Certainly the speed of the whole thing i can totally understand. largely this is due to so many folks, over so many years, complaining about slow meandering video tuts that seem to take a long time to not always tell so much... and as it gets more repetetive (as rigging will, there's only like 5 or 6 basic things you can actually do)... it gets faster and faster to try and pack in more and more about rig design, and so on.

ofc, the flipside of this is that no matter how slowly it was all explained out, or worked through, I wouldnt expect anyone to get it all after a first viewing, and so in that way it is meant to be watched over and over.

i definately get how that may seem daunting to some who are noobs to it all... but Im also confident that with repetition and perseverance, everything is in there to take you from noob to as far as you wanna keep digging.

colkai
12-22-2011, 05:31 AM
i definately get how that may seem daunting to some who are noobs to it all... but Im also confident that with repetition and perseverance, everything is in there to take you from noob to as far as you wanna keep digging.

Just highlighting that bit, key to all thing when learning something. Don't just do something once, unless you're very lucky, it simply will not "stick" in your brain that way.
Once you've repeated a process several times, it starts to make sense and just as importantly, gives you the confidence to use that as a step to the next level, be it rigging, modelling or anything, 3D related or otherwise. :thumbsup:

regular
12-22-2011, 06:53 AM
If I try to learn something, after a few dozen times it starts to sink in.

It was no different learning rigging. :)

erikals
12-22-2011, 07:06 AM
not only that, sometimes you'll find that things actually don't work
(in the beginning i though SubD didn't have any limitations :]

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 07:14 AM
No problem with repeating the process, but if I can't get through it ONCE repeating it is impossible. Without exception, every person telling me they understood it has THOUSANDS of posts. Again, their opinion doesn't matter.

I'm not stupid, but I'm starting from ZERO here. Up to this point I've used Lightwave to render candy bar wrappers and plastic containers for print.

"Just work harder" is NOT an answer.

erikals
12-22-2011, 07:15 AM
"Just work harder" is NOT an answer.


yes it is...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 07:36 AM
yes it is...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

A stunningly well-reasoned argument. Thanks. Your help has been invaluable.

erikals
12-22-2011, 07:49 AM
i'm sorry you don't understand it. maybe in time.

rigging is one of the most advanced techniques of any multimedia application, so trust me, this will take time, you will have to repeat, get frustrated, repeat and repeat over again.

i've worked with print and teached people just like you, not sure if that throws in a new perspective.
teaching them good rigging wouldn't be a dream-job, in any software.

 

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 07:58 AM
That's what I'm talking about. More time isn't what is needed. I said earlier in the thread that what was needed was a clearer explanation, which I actually got from the "rigging revealed" tutorials.

BTW, I have a hard time not reading your last response as "I'm sorry you're such an idiot".

erikals
12-22-2011, 08:03 AM
and post #46 is not sarcasm i guess...

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 08:09 AM
Of course it was. Contradicting me when I'm asking for help isn't helping. Telling me to do something over when I can't do it once isn't helping. Telling me to keep trying when there's information missing isn't helping. Blaming the student for not understanding isn't helping.

erikals
12-22-2011, 08:16 AM
well, to break it down, the information is there, i've said it, RH has said it.

so that's why i wanted you to go through the videos over again.
if you missed the info (like stated) then it does makes sense to watch the videos over again.

not blaming the student for not understanding at all, but the student claims the info isn't there when it is, and that's another scenario.

that's why i suggested to repeat the lessons.

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 08:32 AM
well, to break it down, the information is there, i've said it, RH has said it.

so that's why i wanted you to go through the videos over again.
if you missed the info (like stated) then it does makes sense to watch the videos over again.

not blaming the student for not understanding at all, but the student claims the info isn't there when it is, and that's another scenario.

that's why i suggested to repeat the lessons.

If the information's there, I'll take your word for it. I won't say that it's explained clearly, at least not for a beginner. I was asking for beginner help from the start of this thread.

erikals
12-22-2011, 08:59 AM
if you first missed the info (the videos)
for then to miss it again (me saying it and referring to video 1-5)
for then to miss it a third time (RH's post)

i think that's about all the beginner help we can give regarding that matter.
i hope you agree.
 

JeffrySG
12-22-2011, 09:43 AM
Have you watched the videos here: http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=765778&postcount=10
Or here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=90089
Many of these are great introduction to rigging.

Also it might help you to start to rig something and then when you get stuck post here and ask for assistance with a specific problem and you could post the files for people to review. This can be a great way to get a grasp of an area you're having a tough time on.

Keep in mind that a high post count doesn't mean that a person has experience with a specific area of LW just that they are active in the forums.

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 10:04 AM
Have yo watched the videos here: http://forums.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=765778&postcount=10
Or here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=90089
Many of these are great introduction to rigging.

Also it might help you to start to rig something and then when you get stuck post here and ask for assistance with a specific problem and you could post the files for people to review. This can be a great way to get a grasp of an area you're having a tough time on.

Keep in mind that a high post count doesn't mean that a person has experience with a specific area of LW just that they are active in the forums.

Thanks. I'll definitely take a look. I'm finally getting a handle on this, but always interested in new info.

erikals
12-22-2011, 10:28 AM
Keep in mind that a high post count doesn't mean that a person has experience with a specific area of LW just that they are active in the forums.

absolutely, take me for example, i barely know what a node is :]

RebelHill
12-22-2011, 12:34 PM
Awesome... another rigg based flame war...

Though ofc I totally get what cap is saying here... a lot can depend on HOW an explanation is given.

Certainly the info ur after IS in the video set, and is explained in detail... there is though a question of how clear detailing makes things. What one person gets as clear and obvious when termed or phrased one way, another person may not see unless phrased a different way... thats why Ive ALWAYS said that the best thing of all to do is to absorb as many resources as possible to get different views of the same thing from different folks. The "explanation" that most clearly works for a given individual will usually emerge from all the overlap.

Dont forget too, cap, that if there are specific things ur not getting, u can ask, either here, or on my support board... but it does help to try and be specific as best u can.

Also, do try and understand that an answer sometimes doesnt exist in a truly "clear" form, and can only be presented as a series of abstract examples.

For instance... "what is parenting?"...

Well... parenting (in a "global" sense) just means some kind of system/linkage where one thing inherits the properties of another. This can be done either DIRECTLY as in a standard hierarchical parent>child relationship (that being the thing that is common most referred to as parenting) covered in LW fundamentals.

This direct relationship though also carries certain caveats with it, like PARENT SPACE... which is an important aspect of what this direct parenting does in your scene, LWspace.

Then you have INDIRECT parenting... more commonly referred to as CONSTRAINING... where you can set up things that mimic what a parent>child relationship does, or choose to make the parenting work only on translation, not on rotation, operate it under different spaces, and so forth. Cons-cont-exp

Its only when u understand these 3 things, and some examples of how to apply them in different ways that you fully understand parenting.

Now u can also, aside to all that, give a very BASIC description of what it is... ie the one thing stuck to another analogy... make this a child of that by click drag/dropdown/wahtever... boom, there's parenting.

Thats a very clear, and basic explanation for a noob I suppose... but clearly it doesnt really teach much of what can be done with parenting, or any of the technical specifics that help you to understand the RESULTS that parent child relationships deliver (and the the results/the output that matters in rigging).

Perhaps I could have started with some much more basic explanation like this, then moved onto more detail... I spose I avoided that cos I felt that it'd risk fragmenting the training, and I wanted to try and keep given topics, or tools, or workflows grouped into the same sections... to try and prevent having to refer back, or forward all the time.

Its def an interesting thing to think about though for structuring future training.

All good to think about and to know.

Captain Chaos
12-22-2011, 12:59 PM
I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to answer thoughtfully. I don't doubt for a minute that there's lots of information in your tutorial that I'll be able to make use of later.

Surrealist.
12-22-2011, 02:46 PM
No problem with repeating the process, but if I can't get through it ONCE repeating it is impossible. Without exception, every person telling me they understood it has THOUSANDS of posts. Again, their opinion doesn't matter.

I'm not stupid, but I'm starting from ZERO here. Up to this point I've used Lightwave to render candy bar wrappers and plastic containers for print.

"Just work harder" is NOT an answer.

It can be extremely difficult to piece together information in an order that is easy to understand when it is not done already.

Recently I had to learn Messiah, and I can tell you it is not a task for the faint of heart.

But there really is a lot of basic information on rigging for LightWave. It is just a matter of finding it. Albee's book as I mentioned would be a great help.

What would really help though is for you to help us by telling us exactly what it is you don't get. So far if I can recall this thread has been full of generalities about what is difficult. But Greenlaw asked you to be specific and those were good questions.

So if you are learning something and it does not click, STOP! Don't go on! Come here and start a new thread asking exactly what it is you don't understand or does not work.

But be prepared to have screen grabs, files to upload and so on.

Don't just make a post saying such and such doesn't work.

The only way we can help is with pictures and/or files.

You will get a flood of people explaining and giving links. And you will be on your way.

If you are starting from 0 there are a lot of ways to get there. But you know, "help us help you". :)

The best way to learn is in small easy to learn steps. Finding what those should be from one individual from the next can be difficult. And if you proceed in a logical way, that is, don't go past things you are not getting and stopping until you do, you will have a much better time of it.

You have to share your end of the responsibility: that regardless of what you are trying to learn you make it your business to find out the answers before going on to the next thing. If you do that and do it well, you can get through almost anything.

The forum is a great place to do that if you are specific about what you need when going through the best tutorials you can find at your level.

I don't disagree that some tutorials can be almost impossible to follow for some people. I have experienced this on numerous occasions for the same reasons you state. But at the same time the responsibility goes both ways. That is an unavoidable truth. You have to be willing to seek the answers to your questions at the moment you have them and don't go on until you get the answers - google can be a god send here.

And lastly you can take it a step further even. That is once you have mapped the trail so to speak. Write it up. Then when another guy comes along with the same problems finding the basics on rigging you can pass it along.

jeric_synergy
12-23-2011, 02:48 PM
I shouldn't have used the forum to complain about your product without talking to you directly. I'm sorry.
Your courtesy is appreciated, especially on the internet, and Rebel didn't seem to take any offense.

Unfortunately, I think you simply stepped into a far deeper part of the pool than you were ready for. I've got decades of LW experience (weak experience, but still), and I too found/find rigging to be some tough sledding.

I think it's GOOD to bring out specific issues with the software and training and let people hash it out, as long as it doesn't get too personal-- but not too IMpersonal either: these products don't just fall from the heavens, and some UI's really are Just Plain Bad Ideas-- and provide the producers with concrete examples of where and how their product falls short.