View Full Version : All Panthered up

Darth Mole
10-10-2003, 04:40 PM
So far, no major rendering speed increases - in fact, it added a few tenths to some scenes. OpenGL seems snappier, but it's generating some slightly odd behaviour in Layout - when first Alt-clicking to rotate a scene round, the whole grid jumps to a different angle. Also, in Modeller, you get that split-screen redraw effect where the moving object seems cut in the middle. I'm using a dfual 2GHz G5 with a 128MB ATI Radeon 9800 Pro.

Otherwise, Panther is nippy and has some nice new toys. The Finder takes a bit of getting used to, but Exposť is genius...

10-10-2003, 04:47 PM
Is this the golden master, or a late version?

Darth Mole
10-10-2003, 04:55 PM
Seems pretty GM to me. Just says 10.3 in the 'About this Mac' box.

(I know it's a bit naughty but I couldn't resist - I'd be getting a free version via the G5 purchase, and an NFR sample from Apple anyway through my magazine work.)

10-10-2003, 05:09 PM
try the new pixlet QT codec! See wat u can get from it?

10-17-2003, 04:24 AM
To solve the problem of the spinning layout bug you need to go to general options and select TABLET.
This sounds odd but it fixes it!

10-17-2003, 04:35 AM
Watch out panther users! I been testing LW on the GM version and there are some problems with Layout in panther. First don't use expose with LW, it will just mess up the windows if you're rendering. Graph-editor just crash if you do anything there. Probably there are some more bugs, but that's what I discovered.

10-17-2003, 04:41 AM
Lets hope that Lightwave 8 fixes them.
Any idea when its released?

Also anybody know of any tutorials for impact3? Not including the official web site.

10-17-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by pauli
Lets hope that Lightwave 8 fixes them.
Dumb question, but if Apple's OS introduces redraw bugs, why should Newtek try to fix that? Isn't that Apple's responsibility? They write the OS, and the video drivers. If an existing application doesn't work in that environment, who messed something up? The folks who just released a new OS, or the folks who released an application 6 months ago?

10-17-2003, 08:22 AM
Sorry, was a dumb question!
Just pisses me off sometimes.
When you have a "fastest Desktop mac in the world" you expect things to run ok.

I'm a artist from "up north" by the way.
Live in bath UK.

10-19-2003, 06:46 AM
not neccessarily Apples fault, if LW isn't written 'OS legal' it might not work in future versions of OSX. not saying that's the case but shouldn't rule it out.

Darth Mole
10-20-2003, 07:23 AM
Yeah, can confirm the disappearing Graph Editor. You don't even need to move a point - it just quits right out...


10-20-2003, 03:50 PM
I assume u all use ATI cards?
Could be a ATI problem (again)?

Btw, what does GM version mean?

Darth Mole
10-21-2003, 01:56 AM
Could be ATI - if it is, this is the last ATI card I buy.

GM means Gold Master - it was reported that build 7B85 was GM status, ie, feature-frozen prior to mastering and duplication.

Apparently build 7B86 has also been seeded, though this may be part of a 10.3.1 update.

10-21-2003, 08:17 AM
could be a nasty 3(4) way issue. apple writes the os, maintains OpenGL, SGI owns and dictates OpenGL features, ATI makes Graphics cards and writes the low level drivers for OpenGL acceleration, Newtek tries to leverage all the hard work of all of the other companies. Any changes to anything in that mess can cause this kind of bug, and none of the companies directly involved will take responsibility (why should they, they all followed the "rules"). This is whats been happening with ATI for almost a decade.

What is needed is a more strict openGL spec, and better communication throughout the whole process, so that these things are worked out before anything is shipped.

10-21-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by eblu
What is needed is a more strict openGL spec, and better communication throughout the whole process, so that these things are worked out before anything is shipped.
Actually, the OpenGL spec is pretty strict. The only "hole" in the OGL spec is the opportunity to write custom commands that are ignored if they aren't recognized. You are correct in three of the possible areas though -
1) Apple must implement the OGL spec accurately within the graphics abstraction layer.
2) ATi (and nVidia) must utilize standard OGL calls and error routines in their GPU firmware and drivers.
3) Newtek must utilize standard OGL calls and error routines in Lightwave.

You can learn all you want about OpenGL (if you know enough about programming and have a few days) in the Developer Documentation. If you are curious about Lightwave specific possibilities, you should be reading the Carbon OGL information, since Lightwave is a Carbon application.

10-22-2003, 05:45 AM
I gotta stand by what I said before about the opengl spec needing to be more strict.
I have been reading all about it, and it appears to me that OpenGL is a very forgiving and very open standard. For the most part thats good, but when 2 or more companies try to make complementing products, and none of them have experience with communication, you are bound to see places where improvements, extensions, and bug fixes cause problems and headaches.

Remember that NVidia and ATI both have their own shading language, FSAA workflows, and other neat but essentially useless extensions to OpenGL. These "features" should have been developed as "hardware INDEPENDENT" features first, then added to the cards.

its been getting better but I have seen similar memory related OpenGL bugs come and go in ATI cards since they began shipping in macs. And I wish I could say that its been isolated to just ATI. its not.

OpenGL sends a mixed message to hardware and software developers, it enables huge blunders simply by letting companies do things any way they like.

10-22-2003, 09:08 AM
I think that the "standard" OpenGL is very straightforward. This quote comes from the OpenGL website:

OpenGL implementations have been available for more than seven years on a wide variety of platforms. Additions to the specification are well controlled, and proposed updates are announced in time for developers to adopt changes. Backward compatibility requirements ensure that existing applications do not become obsolete.
All OpenGL applications produce consistent visual display results on any OpenGL API-compliant hardware, regardless of operating system or windowing system.
(my emphasis added)

Again, I say that if there is a problem with OpenGL on ATi or nVidia hardware, the problem does not lie with the OGL specification, it lies with how the APIs are implemented by the developers (ATi, nVidia, Newtek) and how the SDK is translated by Apple (AGL).

I meant to end this with -- I think we will disagree on this, but the desire is the same -- well functioning OpenGL on our Macs.

10-22-2003, 11:01 AM
don't get me wrong, I appreciate and respect your opinion. And I heartily agree with your last statement.

and I might add, that I agree with the rest of your post as well. I think we disagree on the solution.

I personally believe that a strong personality (ala: steve jobs, or bill gates) in charge of OpenGL, vigorously protecting its IP, extending it, and convincing its consumers (ati, NVidia, apple, etc...) to agree on standards, and communicate (as long as it doesn't break IP, thats a sticky wicket.)... is the way to go. There are many successful models to follow. the biggest is probably Quicktime, but MS and many others have had success protecting, and controlling the growth of a particular market, and still avoiding the "tower of babel" syndrome*.

*sometimes the "tower of babel" syndrome has also been intentionally employed in order to hurt a market, look at IE v.s. netscape. Each supports a Different implementation of HTML (among other things), and the only real losers there are the users.

10-22-2003, 12:25 PM
If LW 8 doesn't have the bugs, then it's Newtek's fault, in which I would expect a free update to 7.5 to fix it.

10-22-2003, 12:34 PM
OSX is still in an early stage, it changes a lot in every update. I think it's no body's fault.

10-22-2003, 12:54 PM
claw, another way of saying that... is that it's everybody's fault.

I have a classic application (macromedia's fontographer) that has worked flawlessly since 1996 without updates. It just works, no crashing, no hiccups, 100% classic compatible since the day it was released, well before classic was even on the drawing boards. This app is proof that there are rules and following them is very beneficial, even through the rapid growth spurts of a brand new OS.
Its a shame that Fontographer is the exception, and not the rule.

10-22-2003, 02:04 PM
A 3D app's are very complex, so many parts that must work. So it's not hard to understand they are easy to break.

I heard something about that Maya is not qualified to run on any OSX other than 10.2.4. So it's not only LW that have these kind of problems.

10-22-2003, 03:18 PM
its all true.

10-23-2003, 05:57 AM
All this talk about 'problems' has only convinced me to install Panther on my second drive and keep OSX.2.8 on the other. After going through the ATI video card frustration, I prefer not having to deal with any other issues and get in the way of actually getting work done.

This is all very disappointing, I just hope that LW8 will resolve any issues with Panther.


10-23-2003, 09:38 AM
this is a forum where people come to get answers for problems they have. do you expect anything else from this forum?

btw: are you the same dukestreet from macrumors forums? if so nice avatars.

I myself am going forward with panther when it ships. The LW issues sound minor, we're already living with much worse gotchas anyway. Panther is just too much of an upgrade for me to wait.

11-08-2003, 01:08 PM
I've also noticed this, even the 7.5c update hasnt taken care of it. Graph editor, as well as attempting to add a transparency to objects in frames. I've also noticed from time to time, choosing render scene 1 in 7 times causes the program to shut down immediately.

Also solved a problem though with jpeg textures, by removing the jpeg plugin.

I really hope they fix this soon, its really annoying to not have that functionality.

Originally posted by claw
Watch out panther users! I been testing LW on the GM version and there are some problems with Layout in panther. First don't use expose with LW, it will just mess up the windows if you're rendering. Graph-editor just crash if you do anything there. Probably there are some more bugs, but that's what I discovered.

11-08-2003, 02:39 PM
The 7.5c update came out way before Panther, it doesn't even begin to address a new OS - and the jpeg.p plug-in has been a problem for as much as a year now, the fix being what you've already done