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cresshead
08-10-2011, 06:19 AM
lightwave 10.1 VPR Vs iray interactive preview

go grab yourself the 30day demo light lightwave 10.1
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwtrial.php

Lightwave VPR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXU3GsH2-B8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwoSP6cHLVU&feature=related


IRAY interactive viewer
now have a look at iray for 3dsmax in comparison
please note 3dsmax is hooked up to a nvidia tesla system card [1500] and is also using 3 cpu cores as well to update that TINY preview window.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J0zZnjasxBY


whilst it's not all roses and balloons here, VPR appears to run rings around iray and that graphic card based solution.

:D

Myagi
08-10-2011, 07:03 AM
To make a fair comparison you'd have to use a similar scene and render/material settings though?

As soon as you do some physically based surfacing, or whatever it's called when you use GI and blurry reflections instead of specular, I find that VPR comes to a grinding halt somewhere between borderline and utterly useless* on a normal machine (quad core).

Now I have no idea what type of settings that iray demo used, but that's the point :)

* Whenever the VPR is starting to take half a minute and up it does become useless IMHO because you practically can't touch the app. Just accidently moving a floating window that happes to touch a pixel of the VPR viewport will cause it to redraw and start from scratch. You can't alt-tab and do something in another app while you're waiting, because that'll cause a redraw and start from scratch.

cresshead
08-10-2011, 07:06 AM
once my advantage pack arrives, i'll make a demo scene for lightwave and 3dsmax...for now i can clearly see that iray is going to be slow on my system as i don't have a tesla graphics card installed just a 50 gaming card and an old quadcore intel chip running at 2.46ghz

Myagi
08-10-2011, 07:26 AM
Not that I really doubt that. Just find it more interesting to see ~1:1 comparisons.

Regardless of speed I'm a bit jealous about the vpr in a popout window though :) Wish there was one in LW with a manual refresh button to circumvent the whole start-from-scratch-when-receiving-a-windows-redraw-message thing.

cresshead
08-10-2011, 08:01 AM
we'll see.
..but i "think" it'll be much slower....once i have the pack i'll use the same model and light it in a similar scene and SEE what we get on the same quadcore based computer.

you can set iray to use cpu or gpu or a mix of both.

Matt
08-10-2011, 09:27 AM
* Whenever the VPR is starting to take half a minute and up it does become useless IMHO because you practically can't touch the app. Just accidently moving a floating window that happes to touch a pixel of the VPR viewport will cause it to redraw and start from scratch. You can't alt-tab and do something in another app while you're waiting, because that'll cause a redraw and start from scratch.

Doesn't do any of that here.

Only if you minimise the LW window will it restart.

Myagi
08-10-2011, 10:08 AM
That's certainly odd. Win7 64-bit here, with the Classic UI theme, none of that Aero crap ;) . Whenever I move some floating window, like the surface editor, even a pixel and it's above a VPR viewport, it causes a VPR re-render. When I alt-tab and back to LW, same thing. Without exception, it's 100% reliable.

geo_n
08-10-2011, 10:33 AM
That's certainly odd. Win7 64-bit here, with the Classic UI theme, none of that Aero crap ;) . Whenever I move some floating window, like the surface editor, even a pixel and it's above a VPR viewport, it causes a VPR re-render. When I alt-tab and back to LW, same thing. Without exception, it's 100% reliable.

Happens here as well. Switching tabs in windows or putting panels on top of a vpr viewport. Even at render fps 5. Win 7 64bit aero off. So this is not normal behavior?

wrench
08-10-2011, 10:36 AM
Ah well, that's your problem. One of the things Aero does is shift all the graphical stuff where it belongs - the graphics card. By turning it off you are forcing Windows to use the CPU for screen redraws causing VPR to refresh. As another example, render a scene and move the render status window while it is rendering. If you have Aero on, you can and your scene remains visible, if you turn Aero off you end up with a blank grey rectangle where your render status window used to be. Upshot? Don't turn off Aero... ;)

B

Myagi
08-10-2011, 10:48 AM
Considering VPR rendering is entirely CPU based, I'm not going to let that slide as an excuse. Some backbuffering and correct handling of redraw WMs and it wouldn't be a problem with or without Aero :)

Anyway, knowing that this isn't how it's supposed to work is half the batttle, now I can file a bug report at least.

You couldn't pay me money to use Aero :devil:.


Edit: In theory I could at least file a report, if fogbugz still wasn't down.

MSherak
08-10-2011, 02:32 PM
What is it with Aero that you don't like?? Places the speed on the card where it should be..

Myagi
08-10-2011, 02:46 PM
I'm afraid that would be a huge post to go into and the wrong place to do it in :)

creacon
08-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Does that here too, and I even reported this as a bug.
And having to switch aero on would be a lame excuse since FPrime doesn't have that problem (But I do remember that it once had and Steve W fixed it a long time ago)

this is on Vista 64

creacon


Doesn't do any of that here.

Only if you minimise the LW window will it restart.

Elmar Moelzer
08-10-2011, 06:48 PM
And having to switch aero on would be a lame excuse
No it is not, other apps have simillar issues. And if you dont like the fact that you have to turn on Aero, dont complain to NT, complain to MS.

Myagi
08-10-2011, 08:05 PM
It is a bit lame for this specific case, something that is a software render operation done entirely on CPU (and in main memory). Using WM_PAINT/WM_ERASEBKGND as a trigger to re-render VPR rather than only refreshing the vp by blitting from backbuffer, and re-rendering when something actually changed that requires it, is a bit... unfortunate :p

Snosrap
08-10-2011, 08:57 PM
Doesn't do any of that here.

Only if you minimise the LW window will it restart.
What version of LW10 are you running Matt? Can we have it?:D The above problem is VPR's biggest weakness.

Elmar Moelzer
08-10-2011, 09:13 PM
Whenever the VPR is starting to take half a minute and up it does become useless IMHO because you practically can't touch the app. Just accidently moving a floating window that happes to touch a pixel of the VPR viewport will cause it to redraw and start from scratch. You can't alt-tab and do something in another app while you're waiting, because that'll cause a redraw and start from scratch.
Not happening here with LW10.1 on Win Vista Home Premium 32 Bit (came with the Laptop, not my fault) and Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit on my other Laptop.
Aeroglass is on on both though.

geo_n
08-10-2011, 09:24 PM
Wow the refresh issue is gone when turning on Aero. But now my whole system feels sluggish. Lol.

Myagi
08-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Desktop composition, that is part of aero glass, causes WM_PAINT/WM_ERASEBKGND messages to not be sent even if you move a window over another (or move a window around). It basically caches a full copy of each window contents. From a coding pov it's still good practice to implement WM_PAINT/WM_ERASEBKGND handlers as always, disregarding this "side effect".

Cageman
08-11-2011, 04:25 AM
Wow the refresh issue is gone when turning on Aero. But now my whole system feels sluggish. Lol.

That is weird... I always use Aero and would never go back. :) There is one videoplayer that I use occasionaly that turns off Aero (VLC), but as soon as I close it, Aero is enabled again.

:)

Cageman
08-11-2011, 04:50 AM
When you compare VPR and iray remember to switch VPR out of draft mode and disable interpolation for Global Illumination. That will make the comparison more even... yet I'm not sure what you're after as far as drawing any conclusions between two widely different previewers.

Not sure I agree with that... it is like saying that you aren't allowed to use Interpolated GI in LW-renders, because some other renderengines doesn't have it.

If Brute Force GI was the only thing existing in all apps, yes, LW native would be among the slower renderengines out there. But, LW has fast interpolation modes that are extremely usefull in production, I would say: throw everything in there that optimizes each renderengine for what you are doing and compare.

:)

Lightwolf
08-11-2011, 04:57 AM
There is one videoplayer that I use occasionaly that turns off Aero (VLC), but as soon as I close it, Aero is enabled again.

Try updating it. I haven't seen it turn off Aero at all (and I use it constantly.)

Having said that, Aero doesn't feel sluggish to me at all - but that may be because I use a lot of the newer shortcuts that came with Win7 as well.
In fact, things feel a lot snappier with it - and I love to be able to create OpenGL previews without having to be careful about windows obscuring the viewport.

Cheers,
Mike

safetyman
08-11-2011, 05:14 AM
What I love about VPR is that I can put it in any window, even the perspective window and get a render; I don't have to just use the camera view. Also, I can interact with the VPR window without having to move/resize a little popup window. VPR +1 for me.

biliousfrog
08-11-2011, 05:19 AM
We need a car analogy...

I bought a ferrari, replaced the tyres for the same brand/type as my family saloon, now I keep sliding off the road when I corner...I'll complain to the people that built the roads.

I use Win7 on my main workstation, Vista on my secondary one, XP on the render nodes (all 64bit). If I wanted Win7/Vista to act like XP I'd use XP, seems a bit silly to buy a new OS and make it run like an old one. The only issue I've had with Aero is using Illustrator CS3, I have to run it in compatability mode (XP) otherwise some of the functions don't work...the OS disables Aero, loads the app and then enables Aero when I close the app.

Cageman
08-11-2011, 05:39 AM
I love to be able to create OpenGL previews without having to be careful about windows obscuring the viewport.

Cheers,
Mike

Ah... yes... that one was a huge workflow improvment allready in Vista, where Aero was introduced.

:)

Myagi
08-11-2011, 08:16 AM
I may point out that by properly handling the relevant window messages could also benefit Aero users so they can minimize LW while waiting for VPR to finish. VPR still runs at full throttle after minimizing, so those CPU cycles are completely wasted because it will restart when bringing LW back up.

geo_n
08-11-2011, 08:29 AM
Don't use guys have that annoying bug in lw 9.6 where you click on a tab branch while picking which command to do, lightwave just hangs or flashes then immediately goes to another application in the taskbar?
This has been reported many times with lightwave 9.6. I turned off aero for this.

prometheus
08-11-2011, 09:02 AM
That's certainly odd. Win7 64-bit here, with the Classic UI theme, none of that Aero crap ;) . Whenever I move some floating window, like the surface editor, even a pixel and it's above a VPR viewport, it causes a VPR re-render. When I alt-tab and back to LW, same thing. Without exception, it's 100% reliable.

Refreshing of vpr from scratch constantly here too.most annoyingly when you cant do simple background tasks on your computer..I have to check what you guys mentioned here thou to see if its avoidable.

Pop up window ala frime would be my wish too..and paus/recontinued refinement button.

Michael

beverins
08-11-2011, 09:02 AM
If this isn't in the manual, it should be - "Aero Required for proper VPR operation"

biliousfrog
08-11-2011, 10:26 AM
Don't use guys have that annoying bug in lw 9.6 where you click on a tab branch while picking which command to do, lightwave just hangs or flashes then immediately goes to another application in the taskbar?
This has been reported many times with lightwave 9.6. I turned off aero for this.

I get it occassionally but not enough to be overly annoying...it certainly doesn't bug me enough to turn off aero although I wasn't aware that aero was causing it.

cresshead
08-11-2011, 11:58 AM
It's just that this particular comparison is pointless in the same way comparing an unbiased spectral renderer to LW's renderer is pointless when talking a purely speed based comparison.

not for me...how i see it:
i have lightwave 10.1 which now has a previewer
i 'm on subs so i'll have access to iray previewer

they are both used to help set up lighting/materials..i care not 'what' type of render engine each has in the nitty gritty but instead the usefulness of A vs B as a previewer and how each can help set up a still image scene and how they work on MY computer for creating images for print.

totally selfish view as most people are!
.it's not that i'll buy one over the other as i already have them!

you may not agree with this but this is where i'm interested in looking at both and evaluating the speed/feedback and final images i can create using iray final render and lightwave final render.

at least we can agree to disagree:thumbsup:

biliousfrog
08-11-2011, 12:34 PM
not for me...how i see it:
i have lightwave 10.1 which now has a previewer
i 'm on subs so i'll have access to iray previewer

they are both used to help set up lighting/materials..i care not 'what' type of render engine each has in the nitty gritty but instead the usefulness of A vs B as a previewer and how each can help set up a still image scene and how they work on MY computer for creating images for print.

totally selfish view as most people are!
.it's not that i'll buy one over the other as i already have them!

you may not agree with this but this is where i'm interested in looking at both and evaluating the speed/feedback and final images i can create using iray final render and lightwave final render.

at least we can agree to disagree:thumbsup:

I think that you have it totally right. I make a living from producing images/animations from 3D software, my only concern when looking at software and hardware is whether it does anything faster/cheaper/better than what I have...I couldn't give a [email protected] about how it does it, I'm only concerned with results.

I know that, with unlimited resources, Maxwell could produce an amazingly realistic animation but my clients would never pay for the work/time involved to produce it...but they will pay for something that looks good using final gather and costs a fraction of the price.

If it's felt that a like-for-like comparison should be made, I'd suggest working within a render time limit...keep pushing the poly count and material settings until the refresh is unusable. Personally, I get frustrated with anything that takes longer than 30 seconds to resolve into a workable preview but some might be more patient.

Ernest
08-11-2011, 03:49 PM
I actually agree with that. It's just that this particular comparison is pointless in the same way comparing an unbiased spectral renderer to LW's renderer is pointless when talking a purely speed based comparison. We all know that using interpolated GI is faster, why even start a speed comparison when the results are, well... obvious :)

Ah! Bit this is not comparing apples and oranges. It's comparing orange juice with apple pudding.

The results of unbiased GI vs interpolated GI are obvious -if- they are being processed in the same way.

I actually find a comparison between unbiased rendering processed in the GPU against maximum-optimization GI in the CPU to be an extremely interesting comparison.

Is the GPU so much faster than the CPU for a super-parallel task like ray tracing that it can make unbiased rendering on it faster than the most optimized model running on the CPU at similar quality? So far, it seems that GPUs aren't there yet... but the night's still young.

Elmar Moelzer
08-12-2011, 02:37 PM
window messages could also benefit Aero users so they can minimize LW while waiting for VPR to finish
You mean "NON- Aero- users". When using Aero, I can minimize LW just fine and VPR keeps rendering. Aero has also caused me less problems than it has brought me. I am quite happy with it. There are many things about Vista and Win7 that I absolutely dislike (slow indexing "feature", user rights, etc), but Aero is NOT one of them.
And I agree, it should be in the manual.

Myagi
08-12-2011, 03:46 PM
You mean "NON- Aero- users". When using Aero, I can minimize LW just fine and VPR keeps rendering.

I meant Aero. When you minimize and restore LW again, even in Aero, VPR will restart rendering, at least it does for me and Matt. Which is a waste because VPR does continue to render while minimized (regardless of UI theme), but the result is lost as soon as you restore the LW window.

So what I was trying to say was that properly dealing with the window message so the non-Aero problems are fixed, will also benefit Aero users as minimize/restore will not "break" VPR anymore.

Sensei
08-14-2011, 11:12 AM
It has nothing to do with Aero or Win7. It happens as well in WinXP. Restarting rendering happens all the time when anything is moved or opened on top of VPR area. Mine LW real-time previewer didn't do that- I have used double buffering, and when system send message to update, it was just copying secondary buffer to screen (either in Overlay mode and separate window).. Rendering threads were updating this secondary buffer. And 10 times per second it was copied to screen.

Good thing is that switching Object/Light/Camera stopped rerendering in LW v10.1.. In older betas it was literally restarting after even clicking left mouse button anywhere..

stabbington
08-17-2011, 05:22 AM
not for me...how i see it:
i have lightwave 10.1 which now has a previewer
i 'm on subs so i'll have access to iray previewer

they are both used to help set up lighting/materials..i care not 'what' type of render engine each has in the nitty gritty but instead the usefulness of A vs B as a previewer and how each can help set up a still image scene and how they work on MY computer for creating images for print.


I'm still not sure it's a fair comparison - iray was developed as an unbiased final production render with an interactive element that allowed you to make fast tweaks on the fly and access to cloud rendering and web rendering. It's not a previewer for mental ray, nor does it even work on the same rendering principles.

VPR is a biased previewer, not a final render engine. 3ds Max doesn't yet have a dedicated previewer like LW or modo - only quicksilver (a limited previewer) and all of the realtime viewport previewing (lighting, shadows, AO, materials, etc), both of which have been in Max for a few years now.

From my own perspective, VPR completely crushes all of them in speed and quality; especially now it's been spruced up in 10.1! :thumbsup:

But it's still apples and oranges...

cresshead
08-23-2011, 02:13 PM
not iray or vpr but it's still an interesting video to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFUpPe3o1rE&feature=player_embedded

in this test using vray RT a single 580 gpu card is around 8.5 times faster than a dual 6 core xeon set up.

speismonqui
08-23-2011, 04:46 PM
not iray or vpr but it's still an interesting video to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFUpPe3o1rE&feature=player_embedded

in this test using vray RT a single 580 gpu card is around 8.5 times faster than a dual 6 core xeon set up.

hate to say it, but is looking good.

The Dommo
08-23-2011, 05:33 PM
not iray or vpr but it's still an interesting video to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFUpPe3o1rE&feature=player_embedded

in this test using vray RT a single 580 gpu card is around 8.5 times faster than a dual 6 core xeon set up.

Just to point out - that is running on 8 GPUs - probably quad SLI with two GPUs per board. And 12 CPU cores. That's a lot of hardware.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2011, 05:42 PM
in this test using vray RT a single 580 gpu card is around 8.5 times faster than a dual 6 core xeon set up.
Some observations:
1. This is, from what I understand not just a single 580 GPU, but 8(!) 580 GPUs that they are using for the benchmark. That is quite an expensive setup, even when compared to the Dual Xenon.
2. This seems to be some sort of unbiased rendering, or at least pure uninterpolated MC. This means that no optimizations were used for the rendering. This is very easy to do on the CPU, but the added complexity would slow down the GPU. So in this comparison, the GPU has a clear advantage as the renderer clearly favors the GPU over the CPU.
3. The GPU is comparably limited in regards to memory and while you might not notice the issue with the scenes that they used for demonstrations, you might very well run into situations in every day life, where the GPU memory is insufficient.
Finally a somewhat unrelated observation:
Interactivity seems inferior compared to VPR. I get a constant framerate in VPR. Vray RT seems to have a very low framerate even on the GPU. Updates seem delayed also.

Cageman
08-24-2011, 01:45 AM
Interactivity seems inferior compared to VPR. I get a constant framerate in VPR. Vray RT seems to have a very low framerate even on the GPU. Updates seem delayed also.

Hmm... yeah... Not really sure what to make out of all this GPU rendering frenzy that has been going on for a while.

What you guys did with VoluMedic 3.0 is quite cool though (and 100% realtime as far as I could tell from the demovideo), and it seems more targeted to the realm where GPUs really makes a huge difference, compared to a GPU-based renderengine.

It makes me wonder... would Octane be that much slower on CPUs given it's limitations as a GPU renderer?

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2011, 03:14 AM
What you guys did with VoluMedic 3.0 is quite cool though (and 100% realtime as far as I could tell from the demovideo)
You can do most of the things in realtime yes. There are two things that require the 3D- texture to be updated on the graphics card but that only takes a couple of seconds usually. Most work is fully interactive though and we are very happy about that.
We are even thinking about providing an image filter for doing actual final renderings with it. The problem is that speed really drops exponentially with complexity.
E.g. a simple optimization, like skipping the shading on every other sample almost cuts rendertimes in half on the CPU. The very small added complexity for this optimization actually increases rendertimes on the GPU!
The GPU is simply not meant for compexity, it is meant for very few very simple calculations on a lot of pixels/samples.
This is why volume rendering works very well with the GPU.

This is also why unbiased renderers like Octane are ideal for the GPU. It is a very simple renderer with very simple shaders compared to LWs software renderer and shaders.
The CPU in contrast can handle very complex calculations very well, but it can not do many of them at once.
This is why a renderer like Octane has the advantage on the GPU.
The question is, how general or how specialized, you want to keep things.
For a very general purpose application like LW, IMHO a general purpose renderer like LWs software renderer is the better choice. Of course, ideally we would have both, but that is not that easy. You would need a system of extra shaders for the GPU (remember that complexity and complex shaders suck on the GPU) renderer and many of LWs current shaders would not work on it.

cresshead
08-24-2011, 03:33 AM
Some observations:
1. This is, from what I understand not just a single 580 GPU, but 8(!) 580 GPUs that they are using for the benchmark. That is quite an expensive setup, even when compared to the Dual Xenon.


yeah the 8 gpu's work out to be 68 times faster than a dual XEON 6 core setup so 1 card is 8.5 times faster which was my point in that i'm not in the market to buy a $15,000 8 GPU renderbox but can afford a single 580 card for my home pc...btw 580 cards can be either 1.5GB ram or 3GB ram so if you need a bit more room for scenes then 3GB card is a better option.

there are limitations to GPU rendering in that for me using iray there are lighting limitations, procedural texture limitations and shader/material limitations to consider, DOF has no render hit but i believe that motion blur is not supported as yet on iray [might be in advantage pack coming out soon]

GPU renderers are interesting but really only work for certain types of projects the low cost for the power you get from a gpu is worth looking at though.

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2011, 04:09 AM
yeah the 8 gpu's work out to be 68 times faster than a dual XEON 6 core setup so 1 card is 8.5 times faster which was my point
As I said, dont ignore the fact that this renderer is optimized for the GPU and not the CPU, so the comparison is not quite fair. I also think that the example scenes probably were chosen so that the advantage of the GPU is the most appearent. With other scenes, the difference might not be so appearant.
Also note that on a single GPU- system, your GPU also has to do display and other tasks that will make it a little less efficient. So dont expect to see a 8.5 factor in real life situations. I think that a factor of 5 or 6 is more realistic.

lardbros
08-24-2011, 05:35 AM
Just to point out - that is running on 8 GPUs - probably quad SLI with two GPUs per board. And 12 CPU cores. That's a lot of hardware.

Ha, yes... all of the iray demos are done the same way. $20,000 worth of hardware to show some VERY nice interactive rendering. I'd rather buy 5 top of the range new PC boxes to add to a render farm than a $15,000 Nvidia GPU Tesla box.

I'm sure iray will be good at some point, but as far as the demos Autodesk show, it won't be as good as it looks. There are always quite a few 'gotchas' in the releases. Like substance materials don't work with it... (not that I use them anyway), or other materials that people use, certain lights won't work with it... but then, it's an unbiased renderer, so you have to make some sacrifices i guess. :D

creacon
08-24-2011, 06:28 AM
The fact that the events aren't handled the way they should be is clearly a bug.
It's strange that this thread has turned into an aero commercial. :-(
For those of you who are wondering why we don't use aero, because there is nothing it offers us that will make our work easier or faster, so there's no need to switch.
All our OS's still look like windows 2000, and we're not really planning to switch because Newtek isn't handling an event correctly.
So, Myagi I agree 100% with your pov.

creacon



I may point out that by properly handling the relevant window messages could also benefit Aero users so they can minimize LW while waiting for VPR to finish. VPR still runs at full throttle after minimizing, so those CPU cycles are completely wasted because it will restart when bringing LW back up.

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 06:42 AM
For those of you who are wondering why we don't use aero, because there is nothing it offers us that will make our work easier or faster, so there's no need to switch.

Don't you ever render OpenGL previews? Wow.

I have to admit... after a few weeks of Aero on Win7... I'd hate to go back to XP (Vista is a different issue).

Cheers,
Mike

creacon
08-24-2011, 08:09 AM
Previews? All the time, but not in LW.
In Maya we make previews to "iff", then it launches fcheck.

No aero and no problems.
The os and how it looks is about as low on our priority list as possible.
But, again, that was really not the point, the point is if NT should consider this a bug or force everybody to use aero?

As far as I am concerned, Aero is not on the system requirements list, and so it should definitely be considered a bug. And hopefully be fixed as a consequence.

creacon




Don't you ever render OpenGL previews? Wow.

I have to admit... after a few weeks of Aero on Win7... I'd hate to go back to XP (Vista is a different issue).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 08:34 AM
The os and how it looks is about as low on our priority list as possible.

Well, aero goes a bit beyond pure looks.


But, again, that was really not the point, the point is if NT should consider this a bug or force everybody to use aero?

That's a good question. Aero is the default and recommended by the manufacturer of the OS.
Should NT support all non-standard settings that may change how the system operates?
And, is it a bug if a OS setting changed from the default by a user is the cause of an issue?

Cheers,
Mike

creacon
08-24-2011, 09:33 AM
Are you sure? how can this be the default if it isn't even present in Vista Home eg?
FPrime had the same problem at one time (can't remember the version, but i remember that people were afraid to switch tasks because they would loose rendertime). Steve W fixed it and it worked fine after that.

That's the point I am trying to make, not if aero is good or not, choice is good and the fact that we still have that choice on Windows is nice.

creacon


Well, aero goes a bit beyond pure looks.

That's a good question. Aero is the default and recommended by the manufacturer of the OS.
Should NT support all non-standard settings that may change how the system operates?
And, is it a bug if a OS setting changed from the default by a user is the cause of an issue?

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Are you sure? how can this be the default if it isn't even present in Vista Home eg?
Aero is part of Vista Home Premium. It is not part of Vista Home Basic, but that is meant as a very low profile, very low cost solution.

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 09:38 AM
Are you sure? how can this be the default if it isn't even present in Vista Home eg?
The current OS is Win7 - and it is present in all editions if the hardware is capable, with the exception of "Starter" which is only shipped with netbooks.


That's the point I am trying to make, not if aero is good or not, choice is good and the fact that we still have that choice on Windows is nice.

Yup, but that also means that you need to live with the consequences of your choice *shrugs*.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2011, 09:46 AM
The current OS is Win7 - and it is present in all editions if the hardware is capable, with the exception of "Starter" which is only shipped with netbooks.
And its not like it would not run at all without Aero, it just has a few minor glitches.

creacon
08-24-2011, 10:01 AM
OK, guys you won, I usually don't even get involved in these kind of discussions. So I take it you prefer that Newtek doesn't fix what's broken because you use Aero. On top of that it's not even difficult to fix it.

creacon


And its not like it would not run at all without Aero, it just has a few minor glitches.

Myagi
08-24-2011, 10:38 AM
Should NT support all non-standard settings that may change how the system operates?
And, is it a bug if a OS setting changed from the default by a user is the cause of an issue?

Ignore all Aero vs. whatever thinking. Good programming practice in win32 API is to handle WM_PAINT/WM_ERASEBKGND in normal fashion. LW is a win32 app. Whether desktop composition happens to suppress those messages or not, due to caching window contents doesn't matter, that's an automagic bonus that doesn't have to concern the developer. If LW would handle those messages "nicely" the whole minimize-restore-with-VPR thing would also work in Aero too, so handling the messages decently is in the best interest of LW, period.

Edit: Also having the redraws only blit the VPR render buffer instead of triggering a new render, would allow for things like toggling GL overlay, or changing object selection, without requiring a VPR re-render. Only good, for all themes, can come out of fixing this.

evenflcw
08-24-2011, 01:02 PM
How do you confirm Aero is on? and how do you activate/deactivate aero?

If indeed NT presupposes and only supports a Windows 7 with Aero on they should state that in the manual and perhaps include a paragraph covering the above questions.

Anyone have the answers to these questions?

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 05:01 PM
Ignore all Aero vs. whatever thinking. Good programming practice in win32 API is to handle WM_PAINT/WM_ERASEBKGND in normal fashion. LW is a win32 app. Whether desktop composition happens to suppress those messages or not, due to caching window contents doesn't matter, that's an automagic bonus that doesn't have to concern the developer. If LW would handle those messages "nicely" the whole minimize-restore-with-VPR thing would also work in Aero too, so handling the messages decently is in the best interest of LW, period.
No doubt. However, the point is that with Aero the experience is better... and it even fixed legacy issues that have been plaguing Layout since, like forever (well, since they added OpenGL that is).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with improving the current state though.

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
08-24-2011, 05:27 PM
with Aero the experience is better

That's highly subjective. I would end up with an aneurysm and ulcer if exposed too long to Aero, so any other issues are tiny in comparison :D

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 05:38 PM
That's highly subjective. I would end up with an aneurysm and ulcer if exposed too long to Aero, so any other issues are tiny in comparison :D
As I said previously, if you render OpenGL previews it's not subjective anymore - you get a solid benefit in LW (unless you like to take a break every time).

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
08-24-2011, 05:48 PM
Would you mind elaborating what you mean by that? Not that it affects me since I don't render animations, except once in a blue moon just for fun, I'm just curious. What in particular wouldn't be working with rendering GL previews? I haven't noticed anything.

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 06:01 PM
Would you mind elaborating what you mean by that? Not that it affects me since I don't render animations, except once in a blue moon just for fun, I'm just curious. What in particular wouldn't be working with rendering GL previews? I haven't noticed anything.
Render one and while you do pop another window in front of Layout.
That will show up in the preview unless there is some kind of desktop compositing (Vista+).

Which is a massive pain if the preview takes a long time and something gets in the way accidentally.

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
08-24-2011, 06:11 PM
I just did several tries before posting my above post, and there were no issues whatsoever here.

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 06:26 PM
I just did several tries before posting my above post, and there were no issues whatsoever here.
Then I suspect you have the window compositor on anyhow - even though you use an older skin.

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
08-24-2011, 06:35 PM
There is no desktop composition with the Classic theme, otherwise I wouldn't have the VPR redrawing all the time :) .

From a technical pov I would be hard pressed to come up with any reason for preview rendering to break. As long as the stuff is rendered to the backbuffer which then is captured to the movie, it shouldn't matter what happens with the frontbuffer/primary surface.

Lightwolf
08-24-2011, 06:37 PM
From a technical pov I would be hard pressed to come up with any reason for preview rendering to break. As long as the stuff is rendered to the backbuffer which then is captured to the movie, it shouldn't matter what happens with the frontbuffer/primary surface.
That's what I'd have thought as well... try it with XP though and you'll see what happens.

There is a chance that this changed in 10.x - but I didn't read any changes related to it (the Preview has new issues now anyways).

Cheers,
Mike

opmeyer
11-22-2011, 11:20 PM
Considering VPR rendering is entirely CPU based,

The :lwicon: marketing:lwicon: lead me to believe that lightwave was ready to respond to the amazing preview render times for gaming engines.

Unity uses the GPU and has amazing live previews during editing.

I was searching for tips on how to make my VPR view port interactive like that of unity. Hoping I could throw some hardware at it.... Looks like that hardware would just be the fastest intel CPU I can get...

Does anyone know if multithreading, bus speed or Frequency the biggest driving factor behind performance?