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Hail
08-05-2011, 04:36 AM
http://vimeo.com/27093366

cant stop laughing:D

UnCommonGrafx
08-05-2011, 05:29 AM
It's the comments that will become quotes along this path.
He even uses a car analogy in explaining why workarounds are not the choice.

Interesting.

safetyman
08-05-2011, 05:33 AM
That guys rocks! I've used Maya quite a bit in the last year, and I get frustrated with it when I'm modeling and I switch over to Lightwave, do the task in 2 seconds, then close down Maya and play solitaire -- much more rewarding than Maya modeling. I've stuck with it, though, because it's supposed to be this super duper tool (and it does do some things better than anything else), but it makes me wonder why when I'm always thinking that LW does most modeling tasks much faster and better. Just my opinion -- not trying to trash Maya.

hrgiger
08-05-2011, 05:34 AM
That was pretty funny.

And very few people that I know of think modeler suck. It's just extremely outdated and suffering from a lack of attention for the last several years.

Somehow, comparing it to Maya's suckyness does little to make me feel better about it. But thanks for the video, it was good.

Dodgy
08-05-2011, 05:49 AM
When I worked at a games company, we switched to maya for the benefit of its sdk. I quickly started to hate its clumsy modelling, and made my own list of its shortcomings just to keep me sane. Annoyingly, 80% of what you're doing in a games company is modelling and texturing.... I won't say it's not good at other stuff, the results speak for themselves, but modelling annoyed me no end.

colkai
08-05-2011, 06:01 AM
That was pretty funny.

And very few people that I know of think modeler suck. It's just extremely outdated and suffering from a lack of attention for the last several years.
Indeed, with LWCAD and other 3rd party plugins, you can do a lot of stuff in modeller.
The complete lack of development of modeller in no way takes away from it being usable. Just it is missing things that even Wings3D had years ago, though again, between Viktor, Pictrix and Sensei, some of the functionality is at least present in some percentage. :)

wrightyp100
08-05-2011, 08:39 AM
Good video, but he loses credibility points for saying "awesomest" all the time. If you're going to perform a critique, speak English.

bpritchard
08-05-2011, 09:02 AM
hahaha nice vid. It is true that maya is a pig... i've used it for years and i still to this day hate hate hate modeling in it. Its really bottom of the list imo as far as modeling goes.

Intuition
08-05-2011, 09:51 AM
Seriously guys...

The main issues here are that Maya 2012 was a buggy release in the modeling tools dept. They added many things that were unnecessary. As a matter of fact they added some things that were actually a step backwards as far as workflow. This happens in every app. How many bugs in modo, modeler, 3dsmax, (um.. hmm can't really say XSI, they really have always had solid modeling tools) have we seen when large new features are added?

Maya is so much better then what is being shown here. This video just proves how many maya "experts" are out there.

Just like in XSI there are multiple ways in Maya to achieve things.

Maya is not some sluggish beast.... I will and have thrown down with many people about it at DD when we were converting the pipeline to Maya/Vray.

I will say that Maya is actually not as good as modo or XSI in overall modeling capability but its only missing a few things as far as say local,world,normal transforms are concerned.

This guy's workflow is entirely retarded for modeling method in Maya.. ENTIRELY. This would be like watching a documentary on S. Korea made by N. Koreans. This is not to say that these problems do occur BUT... HUGE BUT... there are tools settings that fix these problems and they exists because each function has different possible desired outcomes. Which, this guy obviously doesn't get.

I mean, I agree that there are about 3 things in his video that I agree with in general due to the new maya 2012 bugs.... those things are easily remedied with one of the many different ways to do things. I dont use the new extrude the way he does. I use the classic method and add divisions manually mainly because I don't like to waste spans and in subD modeling I want to keep spans minimal.

Maya has option boxes on many of the tools that are being used. They can be made to keep sections separated or welded. They can me made to offset bridge functions or closed holes. IF one doesn't GET IT, then one can EASILY make this kind of video and claim that it sucks.

Maya doesn't need punched in the face. I don't really like Blender... AT ALL.. as far as workflow goes. BUT, when someone who knows its flow it would be cooking along with no problems.

Anyways, I know LW users people like to bag on Maya so... I suppose I can just say... enjoy the video. ;D

Meanwhile... in the largest 3d employed sector in the world. People are not having any of the problems that are shown in this video in their day to day Maya routines.

BTW, many in the Core beta saw videos of mine showing Maya, XSI, and modo modeling methods. I suppose I could make one responding to this guys video, but no one here really uses maya seriously anyways so what would be the point?

Continue hating maya, its better job security for me anyways. :D

erikals
08-05-2011, 10:08 AM
why did he skip backface culling, does it work now?


The standard pre-selection-highlighting (Is it in LW btw?

no, you use a tool instead (Shift T i believe) works better imo,
if you combine it with other modeling techniques. (adding it would have benefits though)

i could add things to that his list, but ive done so several times before...

do note Maya has some great tools though, like Intuition showed in the HC section...


Dreamcube017
08-05-2011, 10:26 AM
I'm not a legacy Lightwave user, but even I don't think Modeler sucks, jus t kind of outdated. I still use it from time to time for things.

That being said, I don't really use Maya for modeling nor do I ever plan to. I just want to test out some of the physics and things in it and maybe test out some rendering things and compare with Lightwave's renderer.

I always thought a modeling app (or the tols) are as only as good as the person using them. If you don't know what tools are in the box to make what you want, then you simply can't make what you want or you find a way to make it. My preferred modeling tool is C4D at the moment as it's simplest to me... but hey, that just may be me.

Lightwolf
08-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Seriously guys...

The main issues here are that Maya 2012 was a buggy release in the modeling tools dept.
He's using 2011 as is visible in the title bar.


Maya is so much better then what is being shown here. This video just proves how many maya "experts" are out there.
Absolutely... 12 years in the industry mainly as a modeler and he still doesn't know his tool - even after asking his "expert" peers at work.

Maybe it's just the Maya users in the game industry that suck ;)

Seriously though, if somebody with that experience doesn't have much of a point as you say then I'd venture out and argue that there's something shady going on with the used tool.
Or it's just not designed for the majority of users and thus highly overrated.

*shrugs*

@Oliver: Well spotted, I thought the same thing.

However, the real problem with the video is that a single point is a vertex, not a vertice. Sheesh, is that even a native speaker? :D

Cheers,
Mike

Larry_g1s
08-05-2011, 11:34 AM
Somehow, comparing it to Maya's suckyness does little to make me feel better about it. But thanks for the video, it was good.:D Funny Steve.

Larry_g1s
08-05-2011, 11:38 AM
BTW, many in the Core beta saw videos of mine showing Maya, XSI, and modo modeling methods. I suppose I could make one responding to this guys video, but no one here really uses maya seriously anyways so what would be the point?

Continue hating maya, its better job security for me anyways. :DI'm interested. Are they still in the "core" section?

erikals
08-05-2011, 12:21 PM
I'm interested. Are they still in the "core" section?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112909

 

erikals
08-05-2011, 12:28 PM
...I suppose I could make one responding to this guys video, but no one here really uses maya seriously anyways so what would be the point?

i did, but couldn't stand some of the ways it worked.

(it selected vertices on the other side of the object, backface culling didn't work, horrible.)
(didn't fancy the mirror/instancing problem as he is showing either)

...any ideas if there is a fix to this? |:/
 

cresshead
08-05-2011, 03:19 PM
whilst i'm no maya user at all, i did buy and watch several modelling videos and found Maya to be pretty cool actually.

Phil
08-05-2011, 03:40 PM
However, the real problem with the video is that a single point is a vertex, not a vertice. Sheesh, is that even a native speaker? :D

Cheers,
Mike

Indeed. After the second time he said that, I wanted to punch him in the face....

SBowie
08-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Indeed. After the second time he said that, I wanted to punch him in the face....Right - we all know "vertice" is pronounced "vert-ice", not "vert-eh-see". :hey:

Cageman
08-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Seriously... if his way of speaking is the only thing that gets to you in that video you guys have some serious problems.

I'll leave it at that.

Intuition
08-05-2011, 03:54 PM
i did, but couldn't stand some of the ways it worked.

(it selected vertices on the other side of the object, backface culling didn't work, horrible.)
(didn't fancy the mirror/instancing problem as he is showing either)

...any ideas if there is a fix to this? |:/
 

Yeah, press and hold Q then press and hold LMB. A marking menu should come up for selections. Check the camera based selections box. Though, in maya 2012 before the hotfix this marking menu was broken. Its sad, Maya 2011 and 2012 have bad bugs. I'd give this guy a pass if his problems were with bugs but... its just not so.

---EDIT--- Oh yeah.. you asked about he mirroring. Mirroring option can be made to check for verts to weld so that the object is connected. You can do both. The tool remembers last setting used.

Show me one app that solves the "L" shaped bevel perfectly? The bevel has to figure out average spans. Max can do it but the cross lines on the corner are still wonky.. I'll show you how to solve it correctly, and why it is hard for apps to solve automatically if you want. I'll make a video for solving it.. IN maya or modo or XSI. Modeler pros should show how its done there.

Intuition
08-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Right - we all know "vertice" is pronounced "vert-ice", not "vert-eh-see". :hey:

Ah Steve, you crack me up. ;D

shrox
08-05-2011, 04:24 PM
Maya doesn't need punched in the face...

Yes it does, kicked hard too. Then go after this stupid cellular modem.

stiff paper
08-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Show me one app that solves the "L" shaped bevel perfectly?

Wasn't VertiBevel solving it correctly way back in... oooh... I don't remember... 1998? Maybe even earlier.

(Although I'm not completely certain what you mean when you say "Perfectly".)

Edit: I used to work with somebody who used "Vertice" for one point and "Vertexes" for multiple points. And I never punched him. Not even once. But there were times when I wanted to.

cresshead
08-05-2011, 04:41 PM
inset in 3dsmax 2008 on that l shape model


http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97194&d=1312584082


bevel tool [to inset] in lightwave modeller...Hmmm can't work on selection..only individual poly
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97196&d=1312584593

inset by hand in modeller...
select all top faces...
merge polygons into 1 ply
bevel to create the inset properly..
select point one point then the opposite point on top
press l [shortcut] to create a cut..
rinse & repeat x4 times to create the 5 edges/cuts


http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97197&d=1312585330

shrox
08-05-2011, 04:45 PM
I can bevel an L...what was so hard about that? Can I have your job now?

hrgiger
08-05-2011, 05:26 PM
I can bevel an L...what was so hard about that? Can I have your job now?

Not really the same shape as shown in the video. Try adding the divisions and do it again. Looks like you only bevled a single polygon. Multishift will do it but then you get this nice configuration. It does maintain the correct outer shape but still not the smartest algorithm. Dont' even get me started on overlapping corners.

Mark The Great
08-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Use multishift and turn on "group polygons".

EDIT: Ah, hrgiger got it.

tyrot
08-05-2011, 05:28 PM
actually noone is saying modeler sucks ...it just sucks when you throw lots of pollies there..

with few hundred thousands of polies it never sucks it is the best modeler for me.

i love it i live in it .. yes i should even write my testament as a LWO text object..

again.. modeler sucks only if you give it so much polygons.. if they introduce something like gigacore or something we are all set...

shrox
08-05-2011, 05:30 PM
Not really the same shape as shown in the video. Try adding the divisions and do it again. Looks like you only bevled a single polygon. Multishift will do it but then you get this nice configuration. It does maintain the correct outer shape but still not the smartest algorithm. Dont' even get me started on overlapping corners.

OK, got it. But my L is more efficient and sexy.

Larry_g1s
08-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Not really the same shape as shown in the video. Try adding the divisions and do it again. Looks like you only bevled a single polygon. Multishift will do it but then you get this nice configuration. It does maintain the correct outer shape but still not the smartest algorithm. Dont' even get me started on overlapping corners.Maya 2012 has the ability to use an offset with and will accomplish the same thing, but you get the same configuration.

cresshead
08-05-2011, 05:45 PM
:newhere: i forgot about multi shift!....i don't use modeller much these days and my brain is getting old!

yeh multi shift is the way to go..it's in "additional" in my lightwave install on the laptop [running discovery mode on this currently]

hrgiger
08-05-2011, 05:46 PM
Maya 2012 has the ability to use an offset with and will accomplish the same thing, but you get the same configuration.

Yeah, there's actually nothing wrong with what its doing, as I said, it's maintaining the correct outside shape (unlike the one shown in the original video) and it does maintain the same distance away from the original edge beveled. It just looks kind of weird.

But just like other inset tools in LW, overlapping corners are a problem. This shape is fairly simple but on more complext objects or even text, it can be a real nuisance.

Intuition
08-05-2011, 06:13 PM
Maya 2012 has the ability to use an offset with and will accomplish the same thing, but you get the same configuration.

Well, I have been doing that test on many different geometries. Yes the latest maya has some nice solves for this now. But... even then.. it never solves it correctly. Multishift is close and max is close as well as Maya with offset option.

My point is not that a LETTER L is being beveled here. Its the modeling principle in question. Why can't a bevel tool solve evenly the bevel on an L shaped juncture?

Because the new spans require some stretching from the geometric normal.

Similar example is the corner extrude on a cube. The normal averages are different.

Both of these were done in Maya 2009 just now in moments.

Yeah, this wasn't to rip on modeler at all. modeler with LWCAD is da bomb. I am just saying this guy's video is not indicative of a 12 year maya guy on any level.

Dodgy
08-05-2011, 06:24 PM
...

Intuition
08-05-2011, 06:25 PM
Oh nice, super shift was post my time. :D I imagine LW has an untangle now too?

shrox
08-05-2011, 06:27 PM
Oh nice, super shift was post my time. :D I imagine LW has an untangle now too?

Make pretty spaceship button.

shrox
08-05-2011, 06:30 PM
...My point is not that a LETTER L is being beveled here. Its the modeling principle in question. Why can't a bevel tool solve evenly the bevel on an L shaped juncture?...

Yes, I know. Beveling curvy, swooping text in a pain in the main vein, with lots of manual fixing.

hrgiger
08-05-2011, 06:43 PM
modeler with LWCAD is da bomb.

Yes, LWCAD makes everything seem better. Speaking of it, I was able to make the same thing using LWCAD's offset tool. Top picture is the result of the offset. It takes one additional step of welding the vertices at the one corner to come up with the same result.

hrgiger
08-05-2011, 06:54 PM
Another example of where LWCAD makes some things quite easy. These were all made at once using the thickener tool. It did take the additional step of deleting the outside polygons and flipping the insides but the result is perfect.

Intuition
08-05-2011, 06:57 PM
Yeah, LWCAD + modeler is a rockin combo. :jam:

zapper1998
08-05-2011, 09:02 PM
That was so funny

Dreamcube017
08-05-2011, 11:40 PM
I kind of know how this guy feels. There will be times when I open up a software, do something that should be logically simple to do... but NOOO I have to do all these extra thigns to get it to work... and then it doesn't half work. Yes there are work arounds, but when other programs have it down to where it's very simple to do, I'd be prety upset that I had to use Maya to model as well. ...that being said, I don't have 12 years of game modeling experience so who knows.

shrox
08-06-2011, 01:00 AM
...I don't have 12 years of game modeling experience so who knows.

I do, and I use Lightwave.

stiff paper
08-06-2011, 01:19 AM
Ah, no love for VertiBevel any more.

So sad.

Back in the late 1990s I used to make Alias people run from the room weeping, just by showing them VertiBevel.

erikals
08-06-2011, 07:03 AM
well, if i'm right, and Maya still selects vertices on the other side of the object, and backface culling still doesn't work,
then i would say, Maya sucks.

weird no-one ever comments on this, so i take it Maya still does it? :[

Lamont
08-06-2011, 07:31 AM
well, if i'm right, and Maya still selects vertices on the other side of the object, and backface culling still doesn't work,
then i would say, Maya sucks.

weird no-one ever comments on this, so i take it Maya still does it? :[Mine doesn't. Using 2011.

erikals
08-06-2011, 08:31 AM
at last. :]

NanoGator
08-06-2011, 08:29 PM
Eh... he has some legit complaints, but his tone is over-the-top. Maya has its pros and cons, news at 11.

dblincoe
08-06-2011, 09:23 PM
well, if i'm right, and Maya still selects vertices on the other side of the object, and backface culling still doesn't work,
then i would say, Maya sucks.

weird no-one ever comments on this, so i take it Maya still does it? :[

Perhaps too few comments because you and Lamont are the only ones using Maya - ha! Kudo's to you for getting that far with it though. I couldn't get past all the icons and widgets! :thumbsup:

Still waiting for Newtek to implement the "easy button!"

akademus
08-06-2011, 11:00 PM
I'm feeling so much better about "outdated" Modeler right now. Back to work!

LW_Will
08-07-2011, 02:12 AM
People, people, people... I think we are missing the point.

There is NO symmetry mode. None.

That would basically put it over the top for me.

Always knew Maya sucked, now we have proof... ;-)

shrox
08-07-2011, 12:44 PM
Why buya Maya? $3495 retail

Why buya Lightwave? $895 retail

NanoGator
08-07-2011, 05:11 PM
well, if i'm right, and Maya still selects vertices on the other side of the object, and backface culling still doesn't work,
then i would say, Maya sucks.

weird no-one ever comments on this, so i take it Maya still does it? :[

Maya selects verts on the other side of an object because you don't have "Camera Based Selection" on.

Intuition
08-07-2011, 06:53 PM
well, if i'm right, and Maya still selects vertices on the other side of the object, and backface culling still doesn't work,
then i would say, Maya sucks.

weird no-one ever comments on this, so i take it Maya still does it? :[

You don't mean camera based selection do you? If so its been there since Maya 3.0 that I can confirm and maybe since 1.0 and is a simple one click marking menu to switch on or off. Hold down 'Q' and press LMB. If you are in maya 2011 or older you will get a marking menu that has selection options. Check the camera based selection box. In Maya 2012 they have added too many features to the Q marking menu that I don't use so I modified it to use the classic menu. Something which Maya and modo do well. General UI tweaking overall.

And to everyone in general ...again, I know it is some sort of pride issue to hate maya here in Lightwave land. I understand that. People get upset because they can't dabble around with it and then not pilot the shuttle after a couple of fiddling sessions. I get it.

Should I show how easy any of this really is? Why?

I am telling you, they would let us use any application we wanted at Digital Domain. The artists drive which tool is used. We had 4 simultaneous pipelines at DD. We had a render farm for Maya (mental ray and renderman and now Vray) 3dsmax for Vray / mental ray. We had Lightwave, we have houdini.

These tools were also set up to receive data to and from each other. Which meant that if you could animate in Lightwave or Maya or Max it didn't matter. Model in whatever... didn't matter. Our DD custom tools allowed exchange better back then then the AD creative suite does now.

The point I am making is more a question.

WHY... WHY does everyone use mostly Maya now at DD? DD would let us use Lightwave if it was the package the artists want to use to finish a gig. The producers don't care about anything. If they have to tell the client we use Maya because it sounds fancy then they will. But the artists would still use what they want.

Why do most use maya then? If it is such a pain?

I mean, we have some people that use modeler and modo for modeling but... the majority use maya.. even for modeling. Do you think artists care about looking fancy? They only care about two things.... getting the job finished well, with quality, on time, so they can go home instead of staying up all night.

What I often agree about is that Lightwave can do like 85% of the things Maya can out of the box. The CA and rigging isn't as robust nor is the render engine for many modern rendering techniques but.. then again... maya doesn't come with renderman or vray either. Yet, as easy as hypervoxels is to set up VS say Maya's voxels. Maya's have a huge tweaking capability.

Lightwave was the boss of the generalist packages until 6.5-7 era. At which point Maya and XSI continued forward.

In general Lightwave IS amazing for its price range, this is what Shrox is pointing out. No one could doubt that.

I am defending Maya here because I feel like I am staring into a bubble. That one were there are always more people browsing maya sites and forums then anything else. Its a classic theme to rip on maya in LW circles. Well, know that I defend Lightwave on its own terms the same way when people who have never used it make fun of it. I don't like working in it much anymore due to my current options but... LW 10.1 is pretty darn spiffy.

I am not asking any of you to come to Maya. Please, continue to kick arse with Lightwave. I just feel like people care about real perspective. Maybe not.

But, please do come by DD and ask all the old staff happily using maya now who were 10-15+ year Lightwave veterans why they are using it instead of LW in the blistering fast pace and high demand commercials division OR the brutally critical features division. You would get a sobering response. During Core Johnathan Gerber (head TD at DD) and I had hoped to shore up this huge gap, and OH the wonderful linux version was promising. Hopefully the work done on Core will find its way into LW someday. :thumbsup:

shrox
08-07-2011, 07:49 PM
If nothing else, Lightwave opens the door for future DD artists using Maya 2019...

Intuition
08-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Yeah, I would agree with that general sentiment. I mean, LW opened the door for me. There was no way I could get an SGI machine runnin maya or softimage back in the day.

LW was the defacto blue collar CG worker app. :D but... if LW goes well maybe they'll be using LW 12 by then instead of maya.

dblincoe
08-07-2011, 07:59 PM
You don't mean camera based selection do you? If so its been there since Maya 3.0 that I can confirm and maybe since 1.0 and is a simple one click marking menu to switch on or off. Hold down 'Q' and press LMB. If you are in maya 2011 or older you will get a marking menu that has selection options. Check the camera based selection box. In Maya 2012 they have added too many features to the Q marking menu that I don't use so I modified it to use the classic menu. Something which Maya and modo do well. General UI tweaking overall.

And to everyone in general ...again, I know it is some sort of pride issue to hate maya here in Lightwave land. I understand that. People get upset because they can't dabble around with it and then not pilot the shuttle after a couple of fiddling sessions. I get it.

Should I show how easy any of this really is? Why?

I am telling you, they would let us use any application we wanted at Digital Domain. The artists drive which tool is used. We had 4 simultaneous pipelines at DD. We had a render farm for Maya (mental ray and renderman and now Vray) 3dsmax for Vray / mental ray. We had Lightwave, we have houdini.

These tools were also set up to receive data to and from each other. Which meant that if you could animate in Lightwave or Maya or Max it didn't matter. Model in whatever... didn't matter. Our DD custom tools allowed exchange better back then then the AD creative suite does now.

The point I am making is more a question.

WHY... WHY does everyone use mostly Maya now at DD? DD would let us use Lightwave if it was the package the artists want to use to finish a gig. The producers don't care about anything. If they have to tell the client we use Maya because it sounds fancy then they will. But the artists would still use what they want.

Why do most use maya then? If it is such a pain?

I mean, we have some people that use modeler and modo for modeling but... the majority use maya.. even for modeling. Do you think artists care about looking fancy? They only care about two things.... getting the job finished well, with quality, on time, so they can go home instead of staying up all night.

What I often agree about is that Lightwave can do like 85% of the things Maya can out of the box. The CA and rigging isn't as robust nor is the render engine for many modern rendering techniques but.. then again... maya doesn't come with renderman or vray either. Yet, as easy as hypervoxels is to set up VS say Maya's voxels. Maya's have a huge tweaking capability.

Lightwave was the boss of the generalist packages until 6.5-7 era. At which point Maya and XSI continued forward.

In general Lightwave IS amazing for its price range, this is what Shrox is pointing out. No one could doubt that.

I am defending Maya here because I feel like I am staring into a bubble. That one were there are always more people browsing maya sites and forums then anything else. Its a classic theme to rip on maya in LW circles. Well, know that I defend Lightwave on its own terms the same way when people who have never used it make fun of it. I don't like working in it much anymore due to my current options but... LW 10.1 is pretty darn spiffy.

I am not asking any of you to come to Maya. Please, continue to kick arse with Lightwave. I just feel like people care about real perspective. Maybe not.

But, please do come by DD and ask all the old staff happily using maya now who were 10-15+ year Lightwave veterans why they are using it instead of LW in the blistering fast pace and high demand commercials division OR the brutally critical features division. You would get a sobering response. During Core Johnathan Gerber (head TD at DD) and I had hoped to shore up this huge gap, and OH the wonderful linux version was promising. Hopefully the work done on Core will find its way into LW someday. :thumbsup:


I guess I see it a little differently than you. Perhaps because I haven't latched on to Maya. I really don't see Maya being bad mouthed too much around here. I almost think LW is bad mouthed a lot more around here...as of late anyway. Newtek should be worried about that. Maya is almost held up as the Holy Grail that other packages try to be...or be compared too. For me though, I could never get past the interface...too many clicks to get where I needed...but to be fair I only gave it a couple of weeks before giving up. I've been using LW for much longer and I know my way around it. That kind of familiarity with a product makes it hard to switch to anything.

Good to hear, though, that DD listen's to it's artist and uses what they feel needs to be used...regardless of the request of the Execs/Producers.

Perhaps you are telling us off the record and implying that that Avatar was done using mostly LW? Just kidding of course.

Dodgy
08-07-2011, 08:06 PM
Hold down 'Q' and press LMB. If you are in maya 2011 or older you will get a marking menu that has selection options. Check the camera based selection box.

Hiya,
Using the PLE verion of 8.5, I don't get this option in the marking menu.
Go to the Viewport>Shading menu, turn on Backface culling... That doesn't do it.
Go to Display>Polygons>Backface culling... That doesn't do it when you're in a vertex/poly selection mode, you have to do it while in Object selection mode.
You can also select the object and open it's attributes and go to Mesh component display>Backface culling and turn THAT on before it'll actually stop selecting through the object.

My small point being there's 3 places to turn backface culling on, all called the same thing, and only two actually seem to do what I would expect, and neither work when in the mode where it would be actually be useful.

Are you using a customised version of Maya which has a different marking menu?

Serling
08-07-2011, 08:29 PM
Well, I was in the envious position of being a noob to both apps once, Lightwave and Maya. I got Lightwave in January of 2008 and started playing with it (I was using Combustion's 2.5D capability before this and wanted to do real 3D). In the course of trying to learn LW, I picked up Maya's 8.5 PLE and thought I'd give that a shot. Keep in mind, I was coming to both as a newcomer to this field and was looking for the path of least resistance. Within a few days I completely gave up on ever trying to figure Maya out. Reason?

Icons. It's not enough that you have to learn the tools, but to have to learn the icons to get to them was simply maddening: Hover. Wait. Click. Ad nauseum.

Maya felt like trying to type a term paper on a keyboard with one key exposed and all the others hidden under the desk somewhere. It's a horrible UI, especially for someone just trying to get into this stuff.

IMHO.

shrox
08-07-2011, 08:41 PM
Well, I was in the envious position of being a noob to both apps once, Lightwave and Maya. I got Lightwave in January of 2008 and started playing with it (I was using Combustion's 2.5D capability before this and wanted to do real 3D). In the course of trying to learn LW, I picked up Maya's 8.5 PLE and thought I'd give that a shot. Keep in mind, I was coming to both as a newcomer to this field and was looking for the path of least resistance. Within a few days I completely gave up on ever trying to figure Maya out. Reason?

Icons. It's not enough that you have to learn the tools, but to have to learn the icons to get to them was simply maddening: Hover. Wait. Click. Ad nauseum.

Maya felt like trying to type a term paper on a keyboard with one key exposed and all the others hidden under the desk somewhere. It's a horrible UI, especially for someone just trying to get into this stuff.

IMHO.

My initial experience with Maya was the same.

safetyman
08-08-2011, 05:33 AM
I agree with Shrox and Serling. It seems like Maya does things intentionally in a difficult way, rather than (like LW) staying out of your way so you can get work done. I believe this is why studios in the television industry like LW so much -- they can get their work done quickly without having to fight with the tools.

Lightwolf
08-08-2011, 07:05 AM
Maya is written by programmers for programmers.
No it's not. As a programmer I'd never write something like that - even if it was only for me. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

NanoGator
08-08-2011, 07:06 AM
I sometimes think Maya intentionally picks bad defaults that force you to look up how to change them and, in effect, learn how to use it.

NanoGator
08-08-2011, 07:08 AM
No it's not. As a programmer I'd never write something like that - even if it was only for me. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

All of Maya's tools are written to work from a command-line form. That way you can write Mel scripts that do... anything. I mean: Anything. Unfortunately I think this does lead to some questionable behaviours and odd limitations. Wish I could prove it.

Lightwolf
08-08-2011, 07:11 AM
All of Maya's tools are written to work from a command-line form. That way you can write Mel scripts that do... anything. I mean: Anything.
Having written my share of Maya tools I know.
And I would not write a cg application that is basically a shell with a scene graph. ;)

Also, anything is ... ambiguous. Once you start to interface with the outside world things can get very tricky easily and that whole command line form is more of a hindrance than actual help.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-08-2011, 07:24 AM
Hehe, but you're a smart fella :)
The Maya SDK made me feel very stupid for that specific application... :D

Cheers,
Mike

UltraViolet
08-08-2011, 10:44 AM
It seems like Maya does things intentionally in a difficult way, rather than (like LW) staying out of your way so you can get work done.

Funny, I got the same feeling about LW modeler after using Silo for more then a few years, I guess that means that it's all relative ...


Funny video. And a nice advertisement for Silo....

Agreed :devil:

Intuition
08-08-2011, 03:17 PM
Hiya,
Using the PLE verion of 8.5, I don't get this option in the marking menu.
Go to the Viewport>Shading menu, turn on Backface culling... That doesn't do it.
Go to Display>Polygons>Backface culling... That doesn't do it when you're in a vertex/poly selection mode, you have to do it while in Object selection mode.
You can also select the object and open it's attributes and go to Mesh component display>Backface culling and turn THAT on before it'll actually stop selecting through the object.

My small point being there's 3 places to turn backface culling on, all called the same thing, and only two actually seem to do what I would expect, and neither work when in the mode where it would be actually be useful.

Are you using a customised version of Maya which has a different marking menu?

Hmm, you know what? You might be right about Maya 8.5. Is the Maya 8.5 PLE giving any marking menu at all? Like a masks menu? Or is there nothing coming up?

lwanmtr
08-08-2011, 03:35 PM
I use Maya and LW alot and Maya's modeling is not an intuitive task at all...you have to make alot of scene adjustments before you even begin and the visibility or clip distance has always been an annoying thing in Maya. object import in Maya is also a buggy thing..often faces are detached, etc..and merging points isnt the same thing as lw, since it still counts them as seperate objects.

Maya rocks in character animation and dynamics, something which LW is seriosly lacking. Thankfully we have really good FBX support in LW.

LW is outdated to a point, however, it's still very useful in modeling and rendering at least for me...I can get the results I want in alot fewer steps than with other packages.

Modeler has shortcomings and really needs some attention, but for the most part, I still prefer it to others.

It is all a relative thing..if all you know is Maya then you would do the same thing LW users have done for years...figure out the workarounds and get on with your life...hehe.

Intuition
08-08-2011, 03:39 PM
Yeah, its true. I've seen many gigs with maya animation being piped out to LW rendering. Its a good pipeline.

I love maya modeling and made a video showing my workflow. Will post it here tonight when I get home from work.

It wont convert any modeler people I bet but... you can at least see that with the workflow I use (marking menus) that it is not as bad as it used to be. Though still lacking in certain areas when up against silo, modo or modeler/Lwcad combo.

;D

shrox
08-08-2011, 03:42 PM
The layers system in Lightwave modeler rocks. Right now I save each layer as a separate OBJ file to get them into Max or Maya. Is there a better way? OBJ seems to intuitively "know" the proper scale equivalent between packages, but usually loses UV maps. FBX is just darn screwy...

shrox
08-08-2011, 03:43 PM
Yeah, its true. I've seen many gigs with maya animation being piped out to LW rendering. Its a good pipeline.

I love maya modeling and made a video showing my workflow. Will post it here tonight when I get home from work.

It wont convert any modeler people I bet but... you can at least see that with the workflow I use (marking menus) that it is not as bad as it used to be. Though still lacking in certain areas when up against silo, modo or modeler/Lwcad combo.

;D

I'd stand over your shoulder and watch any day.

Intuition
08-08-2011, 03:47 PM
The layers system in Lightwave modeler rocks. Right now I save each layer as a separate OBJ file to get them into Max or Maya. Is there a better way? OBJ seems to intuitively "know" the proper scale equivalent between packages, but usually loses UV maps. FBX is just darn screwy...

You'll be happy to hear then that one of the points of contention in Core was the loss of layers in the classical sense. People mass requested this not disappear. I think they won the argument. :D

lwanmtr
08-08-2011, 04:40 PM
even a single layer obj going into maya has to be thought out..not sure why..but I've learned to seperate certain things.

the trick with UV's is to make sure all surfaces have a texture applied before exporting to obj...LW wont export the uv's if its not assigned...retarded, kinda..but obj doesnt support multiple uv's per poly (as far as i know).

FBX between LW and Maya plays nice for the most part...been getting into more shattering and stuff and until LW gets some good tools like that, Maya works great.

for LW, they really need to get the bullet libraries into it for the next point release...and maybe even court some of those 3rd parties to make LW versions of their plugs.

Dodgy
08-08-2011, 06:21 PM
Hmm, you know what? You might be right about Maya 8.5. Is the Maya 8.5 PLE giving any marking menu at all? Like a masks menu? Or is there nothing coming up?

There is the selection masks menu, but that's it.

shrox
08-08-2011, 08:11 PM
You'll be happy to hear then that one of the points of contention in Core was the loss of layers in the classical sense. People mass requested this not disappear. I think they won the argument. :D

Yah! It just makes mechanical systems so much easier. Even it it ends up all in one layer using weight maps, it makes building it easier as well.

Hmm, I wonder if someone has ever thought of trying a letter writing campaign for hypervoxels...

LW_Will
08-08-2011, 08:41 PM
I think the Icons for everything in the UI is a little messed up.

I also think that there is NO SCALE for objects is a little fraked up.

I think that you need to pick the renderer (blin, whatever) when you assign a texture is a quite felder***bs deal.

I think that will all the ability to use the character animation it is really interesting that you need rigged characters and plugins to get the damn thing to work.

Maya is a great PLATFORM for animation, character creation, and texturing... but there are too many options. There isn't one way to do things, which could be easily learned, but several dozen.

If you've ever seen the Maya "skin" Lucasfilm uses for CLONE WARS, you'd be SHOCKED how much it looks like Lightwave. All the cruft wiped away and the tools right there... and in English too... No freaking icons...

Frak'em all! I USE LIGHTWAVE!

shrox
08-08-2011, 09:01 PM
I think the Icons for everything in the UI is a little messed up......If you've ever seen the Maya "skin" Lucasfilm uses for CLONE WARS, you'd be SHOCKED how much it looks like Lightwave. All the cruft wiped away and the tools right there... and in English too... No freaking icons...

Frak'em all! I USE LIGHTWAVE!

Yeppers! No clutter for my bread and butter!

hrgiger
08-08-2011, 10:14 PM
You'll be happy to hear then that one of the points of contention in Core was the loss of layers in the classical sense. People mass requested this not disappear. I think they won the argument. :D

That was really only a GUI issue we were missing. CORE layers had more functionality then modelers. Such as the ability to choose the draw mode of layers or to lock them.

Intuition
08-09-2011, 01:45 AM
Intuition's Maya Workflow and general Maya tweaker video.

This is two videos.

The first one is a quick 7 minute blurb on the hypershade and a quick L shape fix for Maya 2009 before it had "offset". Using goemetry snapping to align verts.

Short blurb about Hypershade and L fix. (http://www.mediafire.com/?uu96b9ez94t76uo)

The next one is a long 47 minute vid showing basic maya tips, the marking menu workflow and other misc randomness.

Intuitions Basic Maya workflow and other tangental stuff. (http://www.mediafire.com/?fxxm4frgq09uh8s)

I hope you'll forgive me for this video. Its less focused then my Core vids. I have only had free time late at night and early in the morning to do these so I am not 100% focused.

But, you do see how I generally get around in maya almost exclusively with marking menus. I mainly use the default maya marking menus but also some of my own custom ones and even show how to add a button to an existing custom menu.

Normally I model in modo and do tweaks in maya. Today I started a model tank in maya from scratch and doodled it out. Maya is not as good as modo or XSi or modeler/lwcad in many regards but... it isn't too shabby either.

blugenwitz
08-09-2011, 06:01 AM
The layers system in Lightwave modeler rocks. Right now I save each layer as a separate OBJ file to get them into Max or Maya. Is there a better way? OBJ seems to intuitively "know" the proper scale equivalent between packages, but usually loses UV maps. FBX is just darn screwy...

AFAIR, you should make different PART from every layer, put it in one layer, export, and it should work. I found it accidentaly some day, and even wrote a small tutorial for my coworkers... but I didn;t make copy for myself ;).

Larry_g1s
08-09-2011, 07:32 AM
Thanks KC.

shrox
08-09-2011, 12:29 PM
AFAIR, you should make different PART from every layer, put it in one layer, export, and it should work. I found it accidentaly some day, and even wrote a small tutorial for my coworkers... but I didn;t make copy for myself ;).

But then I just have to separate them all out again. That's why I save out each separate layer.

Lewis
08-09-2011, 02:56 PM
again.. modeler sucks only if you give it so much polygons.. if they introduce something like gigacore or something we are all set...

Or if you bevel neighbour edges, or if you want local re-size of multiple polys/objects at once, or if you want to move something in perspective window, or if you use knife in perspective window, or if you knife CC Subds with UV map, or if you weld 2 and 2 points and get 2-point poly, or if you try edge bevel on open edge, or rounder on open edge, or if you use extender on spline and get non wanted poly, or if you try to select edges in UV window, or...... another dozen of problems we deal and use workarounds for year and years.

Yeah "just"those few occasions, rest is pretty good :) ;) :D.

erikals
08-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Or if you bevel neighbour edges, or if you want local re-size of multiple polys/objects at once, or if you want to move something in perspective window, or if you use knife in perspective window, or if you knife CC Subds with UV map, or if you weld 2 and 2 points and get 2-point poly, or if you try edge bevel on open edge, or rounder on open edge, or if you use extender on spline and get non wanted poly, or if you try to select edges in UV window, or...... another dozen of problems we deal and use workarounds for year and years.

Yeah "just"those few occasions, rest is pretty good :) ;) :D.

some dang good points though... :]

geo_n
08-10-2011, 12:13 AM
Funny video!!
He should switch to 3dmax 2012. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdxwWKBy4gU

thomascheng
08-10-2011, 12:52 AM
3DS Max is good!

Lewis
08-10-2011, 01:36 AM
Funny video!!
He should switch to 3dmax 2012. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdxwWKBy4gU

Yeah that's what 21st century app should behave for editing polys, pushing 20 mill wiht not big impact is really looking great.

geo_n
08-10-2011, 03:00 AM
Yeah that's what 21st century app should behave for editing polys, pushing 20 mill wiht not big impact is really looking great.

Yeah, it might be AD is putting xsi tech into max. I've never seen poly handling that powerful other than xsi.

Larry_g1s
08-10-2011, 09:42 AM
Yeah that's what 21st century app should behave for editing polys, pushing 20 mill wiht not big impact is really looking great.Ha! I thought of you at 3 min in when he's moving those points around like nothing.

And with FuturArch going there from Viktor...hmmmm

thomascheng
08-15-2011, 11:02 PM
Josh Robinson came out with another one.

http://vimeo.com/27399025

speismonqui
08-15-2011, 11:55 PM
the second example is awesome ha!

Intuition
08-16-2011, 03:28 AM
:stumped: Again, not happening for me.

2nd video problems still not happening for me. (http://www.mediafire.com/?m65ly75yir1f69u)

But, its consistent for him so maybe the devs will see his videos. They are getting popular. ;D

Lewis
08-16-2011, 03:56 AM
:stumped: Again, not happening for me.

2nd video problems still not happening for me. (http://www.mediafire.com/?m65ly75yir1f69u)

But, its consistent for him so maybe the devs will see his videos. They are getting popular. ;D

KC, can you try to "drop" the tool i.e. close panel and then reselect and type in same value as 0.104... and then see is it same. I think he is arguing the fact that when he wants to do another bevel later on then it doesn't do it same with same value/attribute he typed in.

AmigaNewTek
08-16-2011, 03:59 AM
rotfl

I haven't seen a modeller software without bugs or missing functionality

Red_Oddity
08-16-2011, 08:09 AM
Seriously, it's not Maya's lack of tools or settings (though it often can be on other fronts), but rather this guys lack of know how on the tool he is using.

Most of the time all i can think of when i see him working can best be described as :

http://lifespotlight.com/images/2008/04/hammer-and-screw-300x225.jpg

NanoGator
08-16-2011, 08:29 AM
Eh, sorta. Knowing how to get around the limitations is not the same as knowing how to use the tool. There's a reason a hammer, for example, is designed the way it is and why it's preferred over a big rock.

Larry_g1s
08-16-2011, 09:24 AM
KC, can you try to "drop" the tool i.e. close panel and then reselect and type in same value as 0.104... and then see is it same. I think he is arguing the fact that when he wants to do another bevel later on then it doesn't do it same with same value/attribute he typed in.Yeah KC, he "dropped" the tool. As you can see from his video some one suggests to do what you mentioned. But as soon as he's "done" beveling the objects he wants, and wants the same bevel length later on other objects, they're different results.

erikals
08-16-2011, 09:48 AM
Eh, sorta. Knowing how to get around the limitations is not the same as knowing how to use the tool. There's a reason a hammer, for example, is designed the way it is and why it's preferred over a big rock.

Exactly !

Lewis
08-16-2011, 10:23 AM
Yeah KC, he "dropped" the tool. As you can see from his video some one suggests to do what you mentioned. But as soon as he's "done" beveling the objects he wants, and wants the same bevel length later on other objects, they're different results.

True, but to me it seems that somehow for him (this guy in videos) this absolute value isn't working since that's exactly what it should be to keep all bevels same as KC showed also. Dunno what it is and i can't test in Maya at home but will check at work later.

Either way we should concentrate on OUR Edge Bevel in LW which is not great either and has numerous of issues, especially with open edges and 2-pint polys and so on and it's not solved for years and years and more years :(.

lardbros
08-16-2011, 10:37 AM
3DS Max is good!

3ds max is good, BUT... I'm still getting worse performance in 3ds max 2012 on Win7 and a Quadro 5000 card than I was 4 years ago on XP in 3ds max 2008. I could push around 7 million polys EASILY... and animate the scenes with NO slowdown. In 3ds max 2012 I STILL get the slowing of the viewport when you first start moving objects... and this is in scenes of only 2 million polys.

This is a seriously powerful desktop machine, dual xeon 3ghz 6 core processors, 16gb RAM and a very fast quadro card... and it's still slow!!

Also, until the hotfixes came out a month or so ago, max 2012 wouldn't even open ANY of our old scenes! Good reason never to move to new software mid-project... (glad we held back until now!!)


Again, not saying Lightwave is perfect by any means, but the same 2 million poly scene exported to Lightwave as an FBX is soooo sikly smooth it's not funny. All animated, and playing back in real-time too!!

Lewis
08-16-2011, 10:47 AM
Again, not saying Lightwave is perfect by any means, but the same 2 million poly scene exported to Lightwave as an FBX is soooo sikly smooth it's not funny. All animated, and playing back in real-time too!!

Try it in modeler and move/edit polys and you'll change your mind fast ;). People constantly forget LW is made out of TWO separate programs Layout and Modeler so these "...it's fast in LW" are kind of misleading sometime ;).

Intuition
08-16-2011, 11:33 AM
Yeah, I saw this post this morning guys and tried it out. I can drop the tool. Go off and do extrudes, split polygons... do a bevel... do other things. etc. What I just thought of now is IF scaling the object has any effect?

In maya you essentially have the transform, which is a location in worldspace/localspace in maya, and you have the shape node which is the geometry which sits inside the transform.

You can for instance create any size cube, cylinder, sphere etc. Once that geometry is created and the create tools is dropped the geometry has a scale of 1,1,1. So I imagine that if that geometry is scaled up or down after create tool is dropped. So for instance, not that I grabbed all the faces in component mode and scaled them up uniform which would still show a scale of 1,1,1 in the channel box on the transform BUT I actually just scaled up the transform so that it was like 1.5,1.5,1.5 or scaling unevenly trying to fit a shape into a different size like 1.4,1.5,1.34.

Testing,....

Hmm, nope, I made a cylinder, then a duplicated the cylinder and scaled it up in the channel box. Same size bevel, this makes sense because the option does say to (ignore scaling on objects).

I'll make a vid showing all this if you want. But, its consistent. I mean, I can get the same thing he is getting in his video by not using the proper settings but... he shows the option box in his video and it is set just like mine but he is getting results that are like he's using the local option or fractional option. Ah well. :bday:

Like I said, his first video had a couple valid points. The boolean can create the poly tearing but... its easy to avoid. Also the nurbs extrude is wonky but also easily fixed. I also use polygon bevel anyways. Also, the nurbs square he makes with 4 separate edges is the desired result in many cases.

I do hope AD see his vids though because I think they could come up with better defaults. Which is often a heated debate in the maya community. But, everyone is different.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7&t=965520&page=1&pp=15&highlight=maya+defaults

I modified my XSI files so I didn't have to do the same routines over and over again for every scene setup.... turn off ambient light.... turn on light shadows... turn umbra to 0... etc etc. You can modify these things in maya too.I remember wanting that in LW too for ambient light as well. LW's probably much better now for defaults then when I was using it often.

lardbros
08-16-2011, 02:50 PM
Try it in modeler and move/edit polys and you'll change your mind fast ;). People constantly forget LW is made out of TWO separate programs Layout and Modeler so these "...it's fast in LW" are kind of misleading sometime ;).

Haha, very true indeed... I wouldn't even try this in modeller... But hey, atleast Layout has actually improved. :-)

So, I brought the scene into layout, yes it's silky smooth and nice to move and animated, but hell, try changing surfaces in the editor and you hit issues straight away. There are tonnes of materials but it's sooo slow even selecting them all. Why is it slow just selecting them??? Anyway... As we agree nothing is perfect, just that some software is more perfect than others :-)

hrgiger
08-16-2011, 04:52 PM
Either way we should concentrate on OUR Edge Bevel in LW which is not great either and has numerous of issues, especially with open edges and 2-pint polys and so on and it's not solved for years and years and more years :(.

Same with rounder. Of course, then there's the actual bevel tool which isn't actually a bevel tool.

LW_Will
08-16-2011, 07:41 PM
I sometimes think Maya intentionally picks bad defaults that force you to look up how to change them and, in effect, learn how to use it.

No, don't actually believe that, but I do think that it speaks to Rob and Lightwave.

Rob is requiring people to make additions to LW that make sense. THAT is the power of the new Lightwave3D.

(Don't think Mr. Powers will be upset with me for telling tales. If he does... Sorry?)

speismonqui
08-17-2011, 12:26 AM
I failed miserably doing the rail extrude part in lightwave.
I couldn't even make a straight path ?

but, with the others examples (booleans, connect points, inset or "bevel", etc.), Lightwave was even faster, better, and smoother than Silo. :thumbsup:

anyway, can someone help me with the path issue?, without LWCAD.

Lewis
08-17-2011, 12:37 AM
I failed miserably doing the rail extrude part in lightwave.
I couldn't even make a straight path ?

but, with the others examples (booleans, connect points, inset or "bevel", etc.), Lightwave was even faster, better, and smoother than Silo. :thumbsup:

anyway, can someone help me with the path issue?, without LWCAD.

You can't make sharp corner spline in LW :(. You can add points close to edges to make it sharper at corners BUT then if you use "knots" option to rail extrude you'll have overlapping MESS so sadly but not gonna work without some 3rd party support/plugin :(. most of these showed here are also problem in LWModeler, some are better but some even worse so LWavers aren't ones who should be smiling here.

tischbein3
08-17-2011, 05:35 PM
I am not asking any of you to come to Maya. Please, continue to kick arse with Lightwave. I just feel like people care about real perspective. Maybe not.

A nice voice of reason, wich can be applied to all soft and purposes. thanks.

And in this case (and in the most), its also a matter of pov and poi: This guy is obviously more targeted / settled towards using it alongside zBrush, so his points towards maya might in fact be "true", since they collide with his actual needs.
Thats what I liked about your old videos: they really dissected the buzz word "industry standard", and brought it down to "workflow standards" in the most neutral way an actual user can do.
(Although I still think, that modeler would _really_ kick arse / set new standards, if it would melt both modeling workflows and philosophies)

again thanks for bringing in / holding up your perspective on this
chris

lwanmtr
08-17-2011, 05:51 PM
Not certain about this guy...I can bevel extrude just fine in Maya 2012. I just use the default tool settings, usually.

I still prefer for myself using Modeler, I've lived with the workarounds, the 'why cant I....', etc long enough it doesnt slow me down...much. But yep, I would love to see Modeler get alot of attention soon, fixes, modern tools, etc...

speismonqui
08-17-2011, 06:27 PM
You can't make sharp corner spline in LW :(. You can add points close to edges to make it sharper at corners BUT then if you use "knots" option to rail extrude you'll have overlapping MESS so sadly but not gonna work without some 3rd party support/plugin :(. most of these showed here are also problem in LWModeler, some are better but some even worse so LWavers aren't ones who should be smiling here.

thanks Lewis, that was sad news. So, LWcad is the only answer?

Larry_g1s
08-17-2011, 06:38 PM
thanks Lewis, that was sad news. So, LWcad is the only answer?Yeah, but LWCAD is with it's weight in gold!

lardbros
08-18-2011, 05:25 AM
Every LW owner should have LWCAD... it's sold as an architectural type of modelling tool, but really it can just take over the standard modeller for most things! :D Worth buying!