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View Full Version : Hypervoxels, the Battle



erikals
07-30-2011, 11:53 AM
...based on some other threads, i'm copying some ideas and requests here.

we all know how Hypervoxels needs a fight, so what are the tricks workarounds and feature requests we need to use/ request to get this going(!)

starting with the HVs blending mode, is there a way to cheat it, or do we need to bring out the torches?

http://medlibes.com/uploads/torches-and-pitchforks.jpg

i guess currently we got 3 "gotchas"

:2guns: Hypervoxels, liquid, distance between particles (post 2)
:2guns: Hypervoxels, smoke, blending like in 5.6 (post 3)
:2guns: 1 million particle limit (post 4)
 

erikals
07-30-2011, 11:55 AM
Hypervoxels, liquid, distance between particles problem
can DPont's particle info node do fix it?
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=623264&postcount=128

can it make this RealFlow effect? (to the right)
or are we stuck with LW's poor Hypervoxel blending solution (to the left)
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ietmqz76vh.mov

 

erikals
07-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Hypervoxels, smoke, blending like in 5.6
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96781
http://www.box.net/shared/static/x4ymx09o7r.mov

is Ogo Taiki a solution?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW0ImR2zZ9M
mixed with,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1064424&postcount=10
 

erikals
07-30-2011, 12:07 PM
1 million particle limit

(1.5 mill is possible, but there are problems, read on...)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111502

 

prometheus
07-30-2011, 12:30 PM
Lightwave 10.5 and no update to the voxel system, I think you would see me in that torch crowd then:D

but basicly we are just repeating our self here, I dont think we can fix the issue with metaball blending with dpontīs nodes as to what I have heard of?

just study the dynamite voxel plugin and draw the best from it such as the metaball blending, the fireshader and rayleigh functions strengh channels and the polyon abilities, I would keep the lightwave procedurals thou, I wasnīt fond of the dynamites noises wich I only think the cells smoke worked decent, the others had a weird angle twist to them.

the rest is an implementation and increasement of particle handling and more effecient way to deal with renderings of massive particle clusters.
Remove that particle limit please.

I am about to post a feature request with a road map of some of those things and forward that to newtek.

first and foremost the distance between particle parameter in every channel possible, then the metaball blending, and then I would see simple preset loading of the color gradient channel, then the addition of a more realistic fire shading ala dynamite.

theres a lot more that I think could be done, within the metaball blending you could perhaps extract out that metaball bounding volume, and from that offset increase that bounding volume wich then could serve as the edge boundarie where the hypertexture is stronger, smoother or thinner than the inner volume.

I could imagine that hypertextures itself could be different when connected to that ofsett boundaries, and also hypertextures that could swith from fbm to turbulence depending on particle age for example.

Ill get back to explain that in a more graphic way when I have the time so set up a feature request of that, and perhaps include ways to work with particles in a user friendly way.
With that in mind, Im not a programmer so those suggestions would be very loose in terms of what could be implemented, but letīs aim to where we want it to be...either it can be done or It canīt.

Ogo taiki as a solution..well not sure of that, but I would se an update/replace of skytracer and that would include a fully volumetric system ala ogo taiki but improved..Itīs still a pain in the...that ogo taiki
had wonderful sky renders with volumetric clouds long before vue got theirs..and then what...nothing.

Michael

prometheus
07-30-2011, 12:44 PM
Implementing true volumetric objecs would be nice too, like implicit surfaces for houdini...so easy to just drag and drop a volumetric shader on the geometry and there you have it.

this is not just applying hv on vertexes of the object, you could get so much more
beautiful cloud effects if this could be implemented, just sculp the cloud layers, use above mentioned offset technique so you can have perlin billowing textures for the main body of the sculpted cloud geometry, and the outer edge offset could have a more thinner volumetric voxel and a completly different texture such as whispy turbulence.

No puffy round syndrome due to the voxel assignment to vertices it should all be blended nicely to the curved surfaces.

Michael

lertola2
07-30-2011, 12:58 PM
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ietmqz76vh.mov 

Wow, great demo. It really highlights the short comings of hypervoxel blending.

-Joe

erikals
07-30-2011, 12:59 PM
interesting quote from another thread,


i have showed MR. RID BUBBLE generator v3 video to one of NT engineers and he commented me that this fix isn't big one... i just wonder why it isn't done already? maybe they want to make hv4 ?

hm... NT says this is not a problem, so why isn't the liquid blending fixed?
NT...? you reading this?
 

Elmar Moelzer
07-30-2011, 01:11 PM
As has been mentioned, what Hypervoxels need is a way to blend the blobs together and control over that via envelopes and textures.
HV2.0 in the LW 5.6 days did offer some of theat control, but for some reason this was never implemented in HVs 3.0.
Currently only surface HVs blend and there is no control over how much they blend (the current setting was chosen poorly as it does not realy fit for much). You can only turn it on and off.
I would suspect that the blobs are based on force fields, like Metaballs are. A stronger force field will cause them to blend less, a weaker force field to blend more.
Volume HVs would also benefit from blending. Smoke effects look much more convincing, if individual blobs dont separate from the main cloud.
I think that one could even put blending into HV Sprites, making them much more usable for smoke and other effects.

Elmar Moelzer
07-30-2011, 01:20 PM
hm... NT says this is not a problem, so why isn't the liquid blending fixed?
Good question...

Mr Rid
07-30-2011, 04:52 PM
hm... NT says this is not a problem, so why isn't the liquid blending fixed? 

As far back as 7.5, I included this in a feature request compiled at a LW house, sent directly to dev, via Dave Jerrard. Have since requested and brought it up on the forums countless times. I might as well be asking the cat to fix it.

97031

prometheus
07-30-2011, 05:03 PM
As far back as 7.5, I included this in a feature request compiled at a LW house, sent directly to dev, via Dave Jerrard. Have since requested and brought it up on the forums countless times. I might as well be asking the cat to fix it.

97031

So why donīt you ask the cat?:D

Seriously send a solution for solving ear wax to each guy in the development team over at newtek, and do it some time before you send the request of improvements, but not to early..the ear wax could start piling up again.

Michael

Mr Rid
07-30-2011, 05:35 PM
So why donīt you ask the cat?:D

Michael

I did, and he is licking his balls, same as NT I guess.

Have never figured out how to get NT to listen, in the least. I submit individual feature requests, and have contributed to official lists that they even specifically asked us for... *crickets*. Traditionally, whenever someone in the room says something like 'why dont you contact support,' the more experienced users all roll eyes and shake heads (a few of which used to work for NT). Supposedly they listen to a few select houses. Their unfolding agenda is ever baffling.

prometheus
07-30-2011, 06:17 PM
I did, and he is licking his balls, same as NT I guess.

Have never figured out how to get NT to listen, in the least. I submit individual feature requests, and have contributed to official lists that they even specifically asked us for... *crickets*. Traditionally, whenever someone in the room says something like 'why dont you contact support,' the more experienced users all roll eyes and shake heads (a few of which used to work for NT). Supposedly they listen to a few select houses. Their unfolding agenda is ever baffling.

Haha..thank you Mr Rid..that was the laugh of the day, I could go to sleep now with a smile on my face, I wish I could do the same as the cat thou...that is to sleep many many hours and purring nicely, what else did you think?

Yeah that is a mindboggling mystery, how to get your ideas and thoughts heard and implemented, Maybe people here on the forums is screaming out to low and too few are screaming out loud, One mosquito biting newteks skin is easy to swift away, but a whole bunch buzzing ..that must be dealt with.

Iīll try to raise my voice and forward feature requests too when Ivé mapped it down a little more graphicly.

Michael

shrox
07-30-2011, 06:54 PM
Haha..thank you Mr Rid..that was the laugh of the day, I could go to sleep now with a smile on my face, I wish I could do the same as the cat thou...that is to sleep many many hours and purring nicely, what else did you think?

Yeah that is a mindboggling mystery, how to get your ideas and thoughts heard and implemented, Maybe people here on the forums is screaming out to low and too few are screaming out loud, One mosquito biting newteks skin is easy to swift away, but a whole bunch buzzing ..that must be dealt with.

Iīll try to raise my voice and forward feature requests too when Ivé mapped it down a little more graphicly.

Michael
I concur! HV's used to make good rocks too, but now I get lots of artifacts on the ground.

papou
07-30-2011, 07:11 PM
I did, and he is licking his balls, same as NT I guess.

hahaha:thumbsup:

jwiede
07-30-2011, 11:16 PM
Have never figured out how to get NT to listen, in the least. I submit individual feature requests, and have contributed to official lists that they even specifically asked us for... *crickets*. Traditionally, whenever someone in the room says something like 'why dont you contact support,' the more experienced users all roll eyes and shake heads (a few of which used to work for NT). Supposedly they listen to a few select houses. Their unfolding agenda is ever baffling.
As far as I can tell, Newtek's willingness to listen is wholly determined by the quantity and proportion of CG reptiles/sauroids involved. Unless/until someone does a remake of "Backdraft" using an all-velociraptor cast, our chances of seeing significant HV improvements appear rather bleak.

shrox
07-30-2011, 11:23 PM
As far as I can tell, Newtek's willingness to listen is wholly determined by the quantity and proportion of CG reptiles/sauroids involved. Unless/until someone does a remake of "Backdraft" using an all-velociraptor cast, our chances of seeing significant HV improvements appear rather bleak.

Starring Kurt Raptor no doubt.

GraphXs
07-31-2011, 01:47 AM
Fixing the Blending would make HV great! Come on Rob/Newtek! Do it!

probiner
07-31-2011, 10:57 AM
http://medlibes.com/uploads/torches-and-pitchforks.jpg


So the torches are HyperVoxels? Oh wait this a picture from the last LW Modelers's riot...

Wavers never actually kill a thing, just frown, or move out of Springfield and say "Ha Haaa"...
:tongue:

erikals
07-31-2011, 11:06 AM
hehe, i was wondering how long it would take before someone commented those torches,... \;]

Mr Rid
08-01-2011, 12:04 AM
.

clagman
08-01-2011, 07:49 AM
Oh man hahaha!

ASCIISkull
08-01-2011, 11:24 AM
I'd like better controls for how lights affect hypervoxels, and for sprites it would be nice to be able to set where the registration or pivot point is- making a bunch of empty space on one side of the image is not only clumsy but can hurt render times.


Incidentally, your topic reminded me of that horrid incident on usenet after hypervoxels first came out and someone posted a certain... shock image... asking how many hypervoxels it took.

My poor teenaged brain :devil:

aurora
08-02-2011, 08:34 AM
What LW can't work on more then a million HV's. Who the hell would ever need more then a million HV's? I mean seriously, if you use even a million you must be doing something wrong. Yor must be a stinken idiot to expect more then a million but the hell do need that many for? Oh wait that would be me. Isen't 30 billion more then a million? Just started a run with slightly more then 30 billion particles (20 billion SPH and 10 billion TreePM based). In two weeks I will have have the snapshot files but STILL NO LW capable of rendering that vast amount of data (~15 TB's) to render it with. And even 'IF' LW could handle that vast amount of information, without sprite/volume blending based on nearest neighbor density, blending across groups and several other HV issues I have to work with inferior renderers to get the job done.

Sadly scientists, who are 'THE' worst programmers on earth!!!!!, manage to write viz apps that can easily handle volume renders of such huge amounts of data. They lack in animation ability and all the other great things a CG artist works with with ease but if some schmo who barely know's how to code a single line of code correctly, can manage to create a renderer that handles datasets even greater then a petabyte in size and perform beautiful volume renderings with them then why is LW still so freakin ancient and limited in design?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! If I were to take all the CG apps out there and rate them based on particles, and volume rendering I would have to place LW on the very bottom of the list and that makes aurora a very sad person. Very sad indeed.:cry:

evolross
08-03-2011, 01:46 AM
Once he's done with iBounce, I say we put Hurley on his interpretation of HVs 4.0! Hear, hear!

Lewis
08-03-2011, 03:43 AM
Once he's done with iBounce, I say we put Hurley on his interpretation of HVs 4.0! Hear, hear!

And in meantime NT is going to do what ? Still working on "support" form Mr. Rids post #22 :D?

NT has the code for HVs so yeah they should upgrade it along with other options but form what we see last couple of years they are only interested in certain parts of code and upgrade those (like renderer, more skin nodes, ...) and neglect other parts (modeler ? anyone?).

I hope for best but somehow it's hard to believe it anymore until seen so let's hope they will provide this time (LW 11?) before asking money so people can upgrade based on available product, rather than "vaporware".

prometheus
08-03-2011, 06:28 PM
If I were to take all the CG apps out there and rate them based on particles, and volume rendering I would have to place LW on the very bottom of the list and that makes aurora a very sad person. Very sad indeed.:cry:

Look what you did, now you made me cry too..bahh:cry:

Please newtek couldnīt you guys throw us a napkin in the form of distance between particle gradients or based on particle density for a starter at least?, That would help us dry the tears a little, and after that..
push that damn limit of particles..invent something for gods sake, or Invite the krakatoa team for dinner or beer and sign a collaboration when they are drop dead drunk.:D

Michael

prometheus
08-06-2011, 12:32 PM
Cross posting of a mindmap Im working on wich will be expanded with feature images ..soon.

Please notify me If you have som suggestions to features or missing things in this mind map for a new updated hv system, you could if you wish also
put a number order to wich of these topics you would se as number one for newtek to work on.

check the image and see if I am missing something you would like to see and explain a little about it in such case.

Michael
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

aurora
08-06-2011, 01:18 PM
Cross posting of a mindmap Im working on wich will be expanded with feature images ..soon.

Please notify me If you have som suggestions to features or missing things in this mind map for a new updated hv system, you could if you wish also
put a number order to wich of these topics you would se as number one for newtek to work on.

check the image and see if I am missing something you would like to see and explain a little about it in such case.

Michael
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

- Color, size, transparency, ect based on local density (radius defined) note this is not metaball!

- Metaball blending for sprite mode

- True color and transparency Transfer Functions

Mr Rid
08-06-2011, 07:15 PM
- Light inclusion/exclusion. No more 'two, all, or none'.

- Envelope Effect Speed.

- Layer/edit Hyper textures with same features as textures.


Although HVs are only half the equation.
...I would have to place LW on the very bottom of the list :i_agree:

In PFX:

- need to have subframe calculation.

- need to get align to path working correctly.

- need to get particle size working correctly. Currently, size is ignored until you enable both 'Show Size' (which shows the wrong size) and Output Size, but then HV size is forced to change.

- need to make Fixed Random work correctly. Currently, clearing motion on an emitter usually causes particle paths to change even though no values have changed. The paths should remain the same so you dont lose what is already working right.

- need a simple 'start frame' for baked PFX playback. I cant believe this has always been missing.

- need ability to L-click & drag to 'area' select particles for deletion or editing.

- Groups are a buggy mess. The more you have, the more they refuse to work. But should really do away with groups altogether. Its more efficient to have inclusion/exclusion checks like we do with lights.

Groups are limiting. An item in one group can not cross-affect items in other groups. Currently, if I want wind_01 to only affect emitters A, B & C which are each in different groups, I have to clone the wind twice and associate wind_01b to emitter B's group, and wind_01c to emitter C's group. In complex scenes, these cloned groups become a fat mess, and start not respecting their groups. Would be much easier to select/check which items are affected by whichever other items, regardless of groups.

- needs to be a way to have 'bouncing' particles (and hardFX pieces) come to rest and stop wriggling indefinitely.

- need ability to have particles split/spawn on bounce/collision.

- need ability to emit from normals with velocity. Currently, it is impossible to have particles emit in all directions from a mesh. You have to pick one axis.

- need to have child emitters with low birth rates, emit at an even rate from all parent particles. With low child birth rates, some parent particles do all the emitting while others dont emit at all.

- need to have disabled winds remain disabled at scene load. While developing a scene I often have winds that are temporarily disabled while I focus on one thing at a time But if I save and load the scene, the disabled winds all become active even though they are still unchecked/disabled. I have to go thru and enable then disable each one to put them back the way they were and continue setting up the scene.

- Btw, the Cone emitter is exactly the same as a Box emitter. Not needed.

dballesg
08-07-2011, 12:59 AM
- Metaball blending for sprite mode


How you will define a IsoField to blend 2D Squares???. I suspect HV's Sprite mode, at least is obvious when draws on the view ports, is using UV squares draw through a Custom object and simply projecting the sprite texture on them.

And about the particle limit, did you check if the limit is on PFX itself (hardcoded) or you can create more than 1 million particles with the Particle Systems on LW's SDK?

David