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Skald
07-06-2011, 03:44 AM
Just before they cancelled CORE I purchased Lightwave 10. I figured that with CORE there would be decent modeling tools like edge slide, loop cut, manipulator handles, usable UV unwrapping etc. So with the cancellation of CORE and the implementation of a 3 year timetable, how long do you guys think it will be before one can use Lightwave for serious modeling? Right now for modeling I'm using Blender. Since CORE is toast I'm looking at other modeling options including possibly returning Lightwave 10 and saving for a different package. I'm not in the Lightwave HardCORE program and have not seen the 10.1 beta but it sounds like decent modeling in Lightwave is a long way away. Any thoughts?

OnlineRender
07-06-2011, 05:03 AM
You can use modeller as it for seroius modelling. I know several artists that can get by with straight out the box lw ...however as with most lw users we agree that modeller needs a kick into the 21st century ,the balls in newteks court

OnlineRender
07-06-2011, 05:09 AM
Moreover Just look in any wip or finished artwork thread ,then say modeler can't do serious ....also if its not written by newtek some very smart 3rd party devs post here ....trueart wolf the list goes on

JeffrySG
07-06-2011, 07:33 AM
I would just get swiftedgeloop from trueart. It will give you what you want as far as your loop cuts and slides right now. I couldn't work without it.

http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoop

Snosrap
07-06-2011, 08:12 AM
Modeler can indeed do serious work. Modeler had long been recognized as a premier modeling application, it just has not been updated in some time and lacks in some areas. I'm also a long time modo user and IMO, Modeler holds up well against it. As a matter of fact I prefer Modeler over modo in the area that matters most to me and that is - speed. Modeler needs some workflow enhancements and improved giga poly performance and I think that will be coming next. Core actually outperforms modo and Max in giga poly pushing, so as they bring Core tech into Modeler I am very optimistic for the future. The present isn't half bad either!

WilliamVaughan
07-06-2011, 08:48 AM
I'm looking forward to Modeler enhancements but LW Modeler is still the best Modeling app I have used. For the modeling work I do, it is hands down the best.

That said.... I look forward to seeing what the LW dev team delivers in this department.

OnlineRender
07-06-2011, 09:01 AM
Tumbling speed needs works .list your modeler demands here .....

Nicolas Jordan
07-06-2011, 09:09 AM
Modeler is still pretty good for the vast majority of modeling tasks out there and LWCAD seems to make up for most of what it lacks.

Skald
07-06-2011, 11:43 AM
The thing that gets me is that it sounds like the modeling tools in the cancelled CORE app were awesome. I just hope those tools make it into Lightwave relatively soon. I have to stick to my guns here though. Compared to the other 3D apps out there Modeler is seriously under powered. It's like a bicycle, fast, nimble, weighs nothing, doesn't cost much, fun to boot around on. But if your planning a serious trip better to reach for your car keys. Sure you can buy some plugins and turn that bike into a moped just stay off of the freeway.

Titus
07-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Modeler is a very good app, I prefer it over Blender but always switch to the latter for UV work.

BigHache
07-06-2011, 11:57 AM
Plans are always awesome. I'm sure they're not taking all they learned from CORE and round filing it.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2011, 12:04 PM
The thing that gets me is that it sounds like the modeling tools in the cancelled CORE app were awesome.
They were not.

Look at what people have already accomplished w/Lightwave. Was BSG 'serious modeling'?

WilliamVaughan
07-06-2011, 12:09 PM
I have to stick to my guns here though. Compared to the other 3D apps out there Modeler is seriously under powered. It's like a bicycle, fast, nimble, weighs nothing, doesn't cost much, fun to boot around on. But if your planning a serious trip better to reach for your car keys. Sure you can buy some plugins and turn that bike into a moped just stay off of the freeway.

Just curious to hear about the serious work you are working on that LightWave Modeler cant handle.

gerry_g
07-06-2011, 12:12 PM
[QUOTE][The thing that gets me is that it sounds like the modeling tools in the cancelled CORE app were awesome./QUOTE]

Wow, I could do dams all with Core, I seem to be doing quite nicely earning a living with LW, I must be doing something wrong, can someone post a tutorial so I can get it right, feel so stupid.

dwburman
07-06-2011, 12:13 PM
If you purchased LW10, the only thing it takes to get you into the HC forums is an email to [email protected] letting them know that you want in and give them your username on the forum.

Iain
07-06-2011, 12:18 PM
Just curious to hear about the serious work you are working on that LightWave Modeler cant handle.

Yeah unless you need BIM modelling or high end parametric/engineering stuff (where you would never be thinking of using something like LW anyway), I really can't think of anywhere Modeler (especially with LW CAD added in) is seriously lacking.

As said above, it needs some TLC but it's an excellent all rounder.

Dreamcube017
07-06-2011, 12:52 PM
As I'm still in the beginner stages of modeling... I'm not sure what all the different edge and point and more maticulous plugins do (although I'm sure it's important) but all I ask is that they make that tumbling rotate thing an option and not perminant.

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 01:10 PM
Other then slow and broken CC subdivision, many tools not interactive, no Nurbs, poor performance of high polygon models, no construction plane, no transform/rotation/scale handles, no instancing, weak UV toolset, weak snapping options, many tools dont' work with edges, no sculpt or paint toolset, only 4 action centers, no GoZ, no history, or no retopo modeler is great.

NanoGator
07-06-2011, 01:18 PM
Other then slow and broken CC subdivision ... no history, or no retopo modeler is great.

Despite all that, Modeler is still quite useful sitting next to Maya and Cinema4d.

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 01:31 PM
Despite all that, Modeler is still quite useful sitting next to Maya and Cinema4d.

Sure. As I said, despite all that, modeler is still very useful, especially with the addition of LWCAD which makes up for some of those deficiencies. But for those of us who do a lot of modeling, the lack of updates and improvments to modeler over the last several years is frustrating to say the least.

NanoGator
07-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I hear you, I'd like to see some improvements, too.

shrox
07-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Whiners...it's good enough for Hollywood. The CORE thing is a disappointment though.

rsfd
07-06-2011, 01:58 PM
Would also agree with hrgiger and neverko.
No doubt, Modeler is a capable modeling app, but there are many other applications out there which can do it just better. Workflow-wise, performance-wise and without the need to buy into 3rd party plug-ins to get a more convenient toolset.
(And if you're on the Mac, Modeler is even worse…)

Skald
07-06-2011, 02:01 PM
Whoa! I seem to have touched a "serious" nerve here. The point of my original post was to get an idea of when you guys think Modeler will be improved. If you think Modeler is fine and you can make a living with it that's great. The rest of us will be forced to look else where for a more complete modeling tool set.

@ WilliamVaughan Serious work? Let's start simple. Like UV unwraping a character mesh natively. How about doing a some retopo work on that character? How about moving or stretching a cylinder that's not aligned to the X,Y or Z axis along it's own length?

@ hrgiger Phew! I thought I might be the only one that sees this.

@ shrox "it's good enough for Hollywood." Layout sure. Modeler? Lol

Iain
07-06-2011, 02:11 PM
@ hrgiger Phew! I thought I might be the only one that sees this.

@ shrox "it's good enough for Hollywood." Layout sure. Modeler? Lol

The point is that if you buy a package like LW you know what you're getting: a mid range all rounder.
You can model anything (well) with it and you can render anything (very well) with it.

It has many weaknesses but so do all the apps, particularly the cheaper and free ones.

You get what you pay for and these days, all the 3D apps (well almost all) are so cheap, you can have one that is strong in every area you need.

zarti
07-06-2011, 02:20 PM
Yeah unless you need BIM modelling or high end parametric/engineering stuff (where you would never be thinking of using something like LW anyway), I really can't think of anywhere Modeler (especially with LW CAD added in) is seriously lacking.

As said above, it needs some TLC but it's an excellent all rounder.

'snot that theRounder itself has ruined someones' carrier or business ..

but , in most of cases i had problems with it .

and never seen it getting ' some love ' .. it naturally deserves .




.cheers

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Whiners...it's good enough for Hollywood.

It's a shame that some would like to dismiss those who have been wanting improvements to modeler as whiners. Some seem happy that all the focus has been on layout for how many years now? Then we get CORE which promises us a more modern modeling envrionment(among other things) and now that it has been discontinued, it's pretty much killed off any hope for seeing any modeling improvements anytime soon.

IMI
07-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Other then slow and broken CC subdivision, many tools not interactive, no Nurbs, poor performance of high polygon models, no construction plane, no transform/rotation/scale handles, no instancing, weak UV toolset, weak snapping options, many tools dont' work with edges, no sculpt or paint toolset, only 4 action centers, no GoZ, no history, or no retopo modeler is great.

LOL! :ohmy:

IMI
07-06-2011, 02:50 PM
...
Then we get CORE which promises us a more modern modeling envrionment(among other things) and now that it has been discontinued, it's pretty much killed off any hope for seeing any modeling improvements anytime soon.
....




Wait a minute - what? CORE has been discontinued?

OnlineRender
07-06-2011, 02:59 PM
Wait a minute - what? CORE has been discontinued?

you being legit there ? /\

Snosrap
07-06-2011, 03:03 PM
how long do you guys think it will be before one can use Lightwave for serious modeling?

Umm. Now.

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Wait a minute - what? CORE has been discontinued?

You hadn't heard?

It came down to the question would it be quicker to develop a new application like CORE, or to make the necessary changes in classic LightWave to make it a unified application with the same benefits. Rob and crew apparently decided that the latter would be the optimal route of the two. Supposedly their plan is to integrate aspcts of CORE into Layout (VPR for example) all the while creating a unified application and doing away with the 2 headed app LightWave is now. We'll see.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2011, 03:28 PM
No doubt, Modeler is a capable modeling app, but there are many other applications out there which can do it just better.
Would that be modo?

Maybe we should just resign ourselves to the situation that nobody seems to be able to pull off BOTH a good modeler AND a good renderer/animator.

One or the other, but apparently, not both.

Sensei
07-06-2011, 03:34 PM
For me it rather means that LWSDK front-end will be calling Core code, instead of old patched LW code. This way all existing plugins and everything written using LWSDK will continue to work, including LightWave higher level code. And really new plugins will use C++ Core SDK, instead of legacy LWSDK, utilizing new architecture.

Means, Core will be in core.. ;)

IMI
07-06-2011, 03:46 PM
@ Online Render:
Yeah, I wasn't trolling or kidding, if that's what you meant. I've not been paying attention to the development of LW lately and haven't read this forum in weeks.


You hadn't heard?

It came down to the question would it be quicker to develop a new application like CORE, or to make the necessary changes in classic LightWave to make it a unified application with the same benefits. Rob and crew apparently decided that the latter would be the optimal route of the two. Supposedly their plan is to integrate aspcts of CORE into Layout (VPR for example) all the while creating a unified application and doing away with the 2 headed app LightWave is now. We'll see.

Huh? I thought the whole point of CORE was to do away with the antiquated code while bringing LW up to present standards. What you describe sounds like they're planning on integrating it with the existing code, unless I'm misunderstanding.

So what about all the people who paid in advance for a whole new app, i.e., CORE?

shrox
07-06-2011, 04:18 PM
Oh come on, it's the artist. Did the great masters limit themselves to caricatures because they only had natural pigments and horse hair brushes?

Improvements are great, but saying you can't make anything worthwhile with modeler is a shame too...

Good thing we don't work in marble.

probiner
07-06-2011, 04:41 PM
To be honest the things that hold me to LW Modeler when comparing with what's available on other apps are very very "simple" things on the user end that make me work faster and at ease. Anything else it's either also available or it's much better in other apps. (excluding plugins, especially LWCAD):

-Connect and Dissolve commands: with one key for each i can do a multiple tasks in modeler that take several tools in other apps.
-Center and Rotate 90º commands: simple and fast.
-Edge Loop Selection: In LW it goes all the way, in other apps it stops at loop array intersections.


Since this seems like a viable thread to dump ideas about Modeler here i go =)
Something similar to what i have posted already in 2006:

Modeler is blind to existing data do guide editing tools and this is bad. Many times the information you want to input to the edits, it's just there.
Every transformation tool should have more options for Axis Origin and Snapping.

Here some viable and crazy possibilities that could be selected like Translate Plus does or be assigned to the Construction Plane (being axis = Y axis):

Axis

Point
-Vertex Normal

Edge
-Edge -1 Edge and 1 Vertex -2 Vertices -2 Polygons intersection line

Plane
-Polygon Normal -3 Vertices -2 Edges

Input Values (unified app)
-Vector from 0,0,0 to x, y and z inputs. -Degrees from x and y inputs (like Heading and Pitch) -Heading and Pitch from item name input and frame input. -Motion path tangent from item name input and frame input.

(being item: object, light, bone, camera, etc)

Origins
-Vertex -2 Vertices mid-point. -2 Edges intersection point -Edge mid-point -Polygon centroid -Item Postion at frame input

Some you might say "I'll never use that". Until you just want to, because you have the geometry sitting right there and you can't input it. And then, welcome to the tiresome WORKAROUND path of the ninja.
More to come... lol
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Skald, as for the serious modeling made in Blender in opposition to LW... it made me laugh... seriously...

For UV Mapping if you are using a PC, PLGUV makes a very decent job. (free) http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm
For Edge Slide you have DUnislide that is now a plugin and it also does a very decent job. http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=18878981
For Loop Cut use Bandsaw Pro

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Huh? I thought the whole point of CORE was to do away with the antiquated code while bringing LW up to present standards. What you describe sounds like they're planning on integrating it with the existing code, unless I'm misunderstanding.

Well communication in hardcore concerning future direction and planning has all but evaportated. Rob feels its counter productive to talk road maps, time tables or even what we might have to look forward to next week. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of being in hardcore which was supposed to be about collaborationa and communication, but that's another thread. So it's hard to say exactly how everythings going to work. As far as I understand it, it's not only CORE features that are being worked into LightWave but also the framework as well so we're basically going to get a merged modeler/layout using the framework of CORE at some point in the future. NT says that the end goal has not changed only the vehicle that is taking us there. So until they say something different to us, the idea is still to have a unified node based application, python scripting, Bullet dynamics/unified dynamics envrionement,etc.... but building it within Layout. Maybe Mike Wolf or Sensei can suggest a more clear explanation of how such a thing might be done as I am not a software developer. You do have to remember though that it was the team led by Jay Roth who suggested that a new application was the better route to take. Rob and team now feel that the necessary changes can be made with LWSDK to bring LightWave up to a modern codebase. I have my doubts but it was Rob himself who said that there's not much he can say that will convince people that this is true, the proof will be in the future releases of LightWave.


So what about all the people who paid in advance for a whole new app, i.e., CORE?

Those who are in hardcore have been given the option of a refund if they don't feel that they have gotten value for their money in LightWave 10 (and now 10.1 which will be out soon). If we don't take the refund, we are paid up until they release 11. At that point, if we want to upgrade, we still have the guaranteed upgrade price which is the same that we paid for CORE (and its good for 4 more upgrades after that).

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 04:58 PM
Improvements are great, but saying you can't make anything worthwhile with modeler is a shame too...



Nobody is saying that (Skald might be suggesting this) you can't make anything worthwhile in modeler. What people are suggesting is that there many improvements which could be made to modeler to make life a hell of a lot easier for those who spend a lot of time in it. Look at Modo, already a competent modeler years ago with verson 101. But even though they keep adding new capabilities to rendering and animation, they keep refining and adding to the modeling toolset with each release. But Newtek has completely focused on Layout improvements for several years while modeler has gone almost untouched. Just because its possible to do a lot of things in modeler, doesn't always make it so enjoyable to do so. Not when you see just how far behind its gotten.

shrox
07-06-2011, 05:15 PM
Nobody is saying that (Skald might be suggesting this) you can't make anything worthwhile in modeler. What people are suggesting is that there many improvements which could be made to modeler to make life a hell of a lot easier for those who spend a lot of time in it. Look at Modo, already a competent modeler years ago with verson 101. But even though they keep adding new capabilities to rendering and animation, they keep refining and adding to the modeling toolset with each release. But Newtek has completely focused on Layout improvements for several years while modeler has gone almost untouched. Just because its possible to do a lot of things in modeler, doesn't always make it so enjoyable to do so. Not when you see just how far behind its gotten.

I was intially commenting on the OPs comments. Honestly, I'd much rather model in LW than Max or Maya. In fact, I usually do, then I transfer an OBJ file to the M Twins...

Of course, I create mostly machines, not much "organic".

IMI
07-06-2011, 05:49 PM
Alright Steve, thanks for the information.
I've found a few threads since earlier that explain it all in more detail.

Man, this is weird. I often go weeks without even visiting this forum (although I do still use LW regularly), but every time I come to check it out some new major shift in plans has occurred.
That's almost become a form of entertainment in and of itself. Every now and then I say to myself, hey let's go check out the NT board and see what this month's controversy is. ;)

Anyway, it's all good. I made my decision to avoid CORE and I never regretted that, and with or without "Core Technology", LW 9.6 is still an awesome app.
While it IS a shame it hasn't happened in the grand fashion they originally said it would, progress is progress no matter how you have to achieve it, and I understand the whole CORE scheme was flawed from the beginning anyway.

Strangely enough, I have no real opinion on it, if you can believe that. ;)

hrgiger
07-06-2011, 07:49 PM
While it IS a shame it hasn't happened in the grand fashion they originally said it would, progress is progress no matter how you have to achieve it, and I understand the whole CORE scheme was flawed from the beginning anyway.



Yes, quite a few of us were disappointed that we won't see CORE evolve as it was meant to. But in the end, if they can achieve the same goal and use the work they put into CORE, then it won't be a total loss I suppose. I certainly would like to see a unified LightWave as long as its done well.

Skald
07-07-2011, 12:23 AM
For me Modeler has serious shortcomings. This is not simply a case of a poor carpenter blaming his tools. Those that feel the same way have either moved on from Lightwave entirely or have added other modeling packages to there workflow.

WilliamVaughan
07-07-2011, 08:12 AM
@ WilliamVaughan Serious work? Let's start simple. Like UV unwraping a character mesh natively. How about doing a some retopo work on that character? How about moving or stretching a cylinder that's not aligned to the X,Y or Z axis along it's own length?



>>The PLG UV tools (Free) have worked flawless for all the character unwrapping I've done.

>> You should give Translate Plus (Modify Tab) a go... It does exactly what your asking for... It's been a life saver for me the last 10 years.

NanoGator
07-07-2011, 08:20 AM
Oh wow, Translate+ is pretty slick!

OnlineRender
07-07-2011, 09:01 AM
every day is a learning day .

probiner
07-07-2011, 09:38 AM
Translate plus is... painful to use, compared to the translational tools and action center implementation in let's say... modo :)

All imo, of course.

I wouldn't say painful, more, insuficient like one trick horse plugin.

:agree: on Modo approach



By the way. Who in the LW Dev team is dedicated to Modeling development?

Cheers

Snosrap
07-07-2011, 11:35 AM
>>The PLG UV tools (Free) have worked flawless for all the character unwrapping I've done.

>> You should give Translate Plus (Modify Tab) a go... It does exactly what your asking for... It's been a life saver for me the last 10 years.

I've actually got better unwraps using the PLG Tools in LW in some situations than in modo, and I consider modo's UV tools to be very robust.

Sorry William, Translate Plus is a joke. Fortunately I have LWCad and don't have to mess with that nonsense. modo's translate tool is solid. Core was heading down that same path so I look for some of those ideas to be in Modeler soon.

To get back on topic, I can't see how anybody that has ever spent some time Modeler could not find it to be an extreemly competent set of modeling tools. I love modo for a lot of reasons, but I model in Modeler 90% of the time mainly because nothing gets in my way and I am fast as h*@# in it!

KurtF
07-07-2011, 11:50 AM
... It's been a life saver for me the last 10 years.

Ten years? And in all that time nothing like what this does was put into the Lightwave modeler? That just screams lack of development to me.

gerry_g
07-07-2011, 12:00 PM
Much that I love Modo I find the gizmos get in the way and would rather use a key command to constrain to axis and as for snapping Modo still hasn't got it right still prefer Lightwave, but Newtek seem hell bent on screwing this up by adding gizmos to everything, why does very one seem to think you need gizmos to be able to model ?

WilliamVaughan
07-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Ten years? And in all that time nothing like what this does was put into the Lightwave modeler? That just screams lack of development to me.


It HAS been in LW for 10 years....

hrgiger
07-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Much that I love Modo I find the gizmos get in the way and would rather use a key command to constrain to axis and as for snapping Modo still hasn't got it right still prefer Lightwave, but Newtek seem hell bent on screwing this up by adding gizmos to everything, why does very one seem to think you need gizmos to be able to model ?

I'm sure the best option for all would be to allow you to turn them on or off.

But for me personally, I find them ace in most every situation. Modeling in LightWave you tend to get stuck into this mentality of modeling in a quad view(which is a waste of screen space if you ask me since most of time you are focused on a single viewport). If you want to translate/constrain in one direction use this viewport, translate/constrain in another direction and use this viewport over here. It's fine sometimes when you're checking background reference in each viewport but with the addition of a workplane and translate/rotate/scale handles, you can do most everything from the perspective viewport.

As far as snapping goes, Modos got it pretty good. Modeler only has grid snapping which I've found about next to worthless. Again, thank Viktor for LWCAD in this area. Best snap tools anywhere that I've seen.

WilliamVaughan
07-07-2011, 01:57 PM
I've worked with several 3D apps and there are features I like in other Modelers that I'd love to see LW Modeler adopt. Modo has some great features like being able to lock layers in the foreground and the Flex tool that I wrote about in this "making of using" Modo: http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials_3/makingof_ivan&bonnie/ivan_bonnie_01.php

I find I'm faster using the PLG UV tools and get the results I need then any other tool... other then Unfold 3D, which I have found to be the Ultimate UV toolset.

I'm looking forward to the improvements NewTek has planned for LW Modeler but I've never held my breathe waiting for software. I use what is available today. If there is a task that LightWave cant handle or I'd lose money using LW over another tool then I use the software that is the solution.

I don't think less of anyone that finds fault with LW or wants to see new features....as I fit in that category... I just don't agree that LightWave Modeler is in the same state as some here have said. As stated earlier, I've used alot of 3d modeling apps and LightWave is still my favorite and I work the fastest in it. But in the end...it's all down to each persons workflow and what they find works for them.:thumbsup:

probiner
07-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Well Modo doesn't have much space for quadview anyway, does it? especially if you are in a 21'' or less monitor. That said while I'm with gerry that gizmos are somewhat -in the way- in Modo, they do make perspective modeling manageable.
(LW allows to constrain to xyz by pressing CTRL+LMB or just MMB in Perspective view for translation tools, but not for rotate or sizing)

Another good thing along with gizmos is to have the numerical changes appearing next to the gizmo, and not in a numerical panel. So you just have to look into one place.

As a modeling app Modeler is here to attend several modeling mindsets and specific tasks. Maybe it could create enviorments for both, since you could probably come down to 2 or 3:
-Organic (softbody characters) [smooth deforming meshes]
-Architecture (Buildings, infra-structures, terrain, vegetation) [cardboard meshes];
-Industrial (equipments and objects, cars, products). [both smooth and tight, very detailed, meshes, that sometimes scream for NURBS]

And each environment could speed up each mindset, occluding the routines that make it slower.


Editing tools aside, NURBS alone in LW would be a big step forward in modeling. Pity they won't make it alive to LWCAD v4, it would make it even more mandatory.

Cheers

Titus
07-07-2011, 03:39 PM
I've worked with several 3D apps and there are features I like in other Modelers that I'd love to see LW Modeler adopt. Modo has some great features like being able to lock layers in the foreground and the Flex tool that I wrote about in this "making of using" Modo: http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials_3/makingof_ivan&bonnie/ivan_bonnie_01.php



William, do you plan ahead your characters? do you draw something first or you just have the sketch floating in your head?

shrox
07-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Lightwave works well for me.

I don't like change.

Why won't the black helicopters go away?

hrgiger
07-07-2011, 08:54 PM
I don't think less of anyone that finds fault with LW or wants to see new features....as I fit in that category... I just don't agree that LightWave Modeler is in the same state as some here have said. As stated earlier, I've used alot of 3d modeling apps and LightWave is still my favorite and I work the fastest in it. But in the end...it's all down to each persons workflow and what they find works for them.:thumbsup:

And it was not my intention Proton to discredit modeler as unable to do nice work. Its just my assertion and some others of us who spend a lot of time in modeler that we would like to see it evolve too, not just layout which has received the bulk of development for the last several years.

Snosrap
07-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Its just my assertion and some others of us who spend a lot of time in modeler that we would like to see it evolve too, not just layout which has received the bulk of development for the last several years.
:agree::agree::agree::agree:

Surrealist.
07-07-2011, 09:46 PM
Modeler needs some serious work. Has for a long long time.

My prediction to the OP is that LW will get all of the sexy enhancements to Layout first. Basically more of the same. So look first for things like instancing and some of the other sexy improvements to Layout that they were showcasing in CORE. Basically anything to do with shading, rendering and lighting as well as whatever other real time enhancements are planned. Perhaps some animation type improvements but not to CA - for as long or longer.

As long as there actually is a way to model in LW this will get the last attention IMHO. As long as you actually can animate a character in LW that will get the last attention as well. IMHO.

Not that CA and modeling do not suffer in LightWave, they do, but they will get the last attention because, after all, for now they do work.

One thing that I think we might see also sooner than later is more integration of Bullet physics in Layout.

So if you are looking for modeling app that answers your concerns, I'd not look to LW.

But my recommendation would be this:

Keep your LW license. It is a real cool app for a lot of things and for a lot of reasons. As a rendering app alone it is worth the price of admission I think.

Model all of your mechanical things in Blender. Learn your way around Modeler to do your more organic work. Multishift kicks a** for organic and inorganic modeling. (not to mention Ngon support and the Add Edge tool) And take the tips on other plugs for edges and UVs as mentioned. You can do sculpting and retopo/UVmapping and baking in Blender and then bring it all into LW for rendering.

Overall coming back to Modeler from Blender, Modeler shows its age and Translate plus is not the answer. Although if you do use Modeler it comes in handy. Just not really the same as what we are so used to in Blender but it is at least something.

You can export mdds of animation and cloth from Blender to LightWave to do renders and there is even a script around here and a bunch of data about getting fluids from Blender to LightWave.

What with rigify and a generally much nicer and more fluid CA animation workflow all around in Blender I could not see going back to LW for that.

But nothing wrong with having the best of both worlds.

Just my thoughts having used LightWave off and on for some 15+ years and Blender now for about 3.

In the end you will have kept your investment in an app that does have a future and even in its current state for what it does deliver it is very hard to beat for the price. I personally could only see going up not laterally for improvement there and that would mean more money for AD software.

Good luck!

geo_n
07-07-2011, 10:20 PM
Quoting Thomas T4D in HC forums.

"if you need more then a hand full of tools that are currently in modeler to create a character,... you need to learn the current tool set better NOT ask for a manipulator gizmos .

with a Lightwave modeling mindset and work flow - is modo better then current LW modeler ? YES
it should be,. it was designed from the ground up with total focus on being better then LW modeler,.
( just like softimage was designed to be better then maya )

are better models created in modo over Lw modeler ??
NO WAY check the gallery it's the artist NOT the tool.

and if you attack the task of modeling with a general open minded work flow - is Softimage or maya better then LW modeler ? ( sorry there is no answer to that it's all down the the artist and what they prefer check the galleries on the internet NO software is building better end product just the artists )

is a new manipulators or fast Catmull-Clark subdivisions keeping you away from modeling that super model that gets you a job at pixar NO WAY "

end quote

Right now I only want newtek to deliver on their promise to integrate modelling into layout by lw 11. Separate applications is a no no. I can wait for better modelling toolset by then. Modelling in 3dmax and lightwave for me has become generic, but having core tech, animeatable, parametric, nodal, stack modelling tools in layout is top priority.

hrgiger
07-07-2011, 10:38 PM
Right now I only want newtek to deliver on their promise to integrate modelling into layout by lw 11. Separate applications is a no no. I can wait for better modelling toolset by then.

But they didn't say we'd have modeling in Layout by LW11. All they said was they are still planning on unifiying LightWave but they didn't specify when that would happen. Rob mentioned in an interview that they have a strong 3 year roadmap. So it could still be 3 years away and maybe not having much to do with LightWave 11.

geo_n
07-07-2011, 11:09 PM
But they didn't say we'd have modeling in Layout by LW11. All they said was they are still planning on unifiying LightWave but they didn't specify when that would happen. Rob mentioned in an interview that they have a strong 3 year roadmap. So it could still be 3 years away and maybe not having much to do with LightWave 11.

If there's no work related to integrating by lw 11 then that would be it for me then. I'll still be happy using lw 10 for personal and freelance projects for the next few years. It is a very very capable app for 90% of one man projects.

rsfd
07-08-2011, 03:34 AM
I'm sure the best option for all would be to allow you to turn them on or off.…

you already can do: Preferences > Display > Tool Handles > Draw Style > "Invisible"
of course, it's a more global solution, but for those who prefer Modeler style…

Personally, I like them esp. in combination with the various Action Centers which also allow to set the Handles wherever you want them (e.g. out of ones view)

geo_n
07-08-2011, 03:40 AM
Check out the entries from simplylightwave and simplymaya. Seems the quality of models from maya users are better than some lw users and this is from supposedly a weaker modelling app. The rendering from maya look superb as well.
http://simplylightwave.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5718&page=2

Iain
07-08-2011, 04:25 AM
Check out the entries from simplylightwave and simplymaya. Seems the quality of models from maya users are better than some lw users and this is from supposedly a weaker modelling app. The rendering from maya look superb as well.
http://simplylightwave.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5718&page=2

There are more professionals and more aspiring professionals using Maya.
Nothing more, nothing less.

torturebori007
07-08-2011, 06:26 AM
For UV Mapping if you are using a PC, PLGUV makes a very decent job. (free) http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm


What if you are on a mac?8~

rsfd
07-08-2011, 06:37 AM
^ as we all know, you are then locked to Modeler's default toolset :(

or you just go with another Modeling app…

colkai
07-08-2011, 07:19 AM
Its just my assertion and some others of us who spend a lot of time in modeler that we would like to see it evolve too, not just layout which has received the bulk of development for the last several years.

Preaching to the choir here bro'. :)
Yes, modeller can do stuff, but hey, try saying it can *minus* any 3rd party plugins and it becomes a bit more problematical.

Yep, for sure, many of the plugins are free, some 3rd party devs just plain ROCK! However, failings of native tools relying on 3rd party is hardly "development".

I've given up completely on Newtek actually delivering anything worthwhile in modeller before LW12, if then, simply due to the borderline obsession with new layout tools.
Quite hi-larious when you think the answer from Newetk-ians seems to be, if you need a better modeller now, buy another product to "enhance" your LW "pipeline".
Umm, yeah, 'kay. :p

Skald
07-08-2011, 08:48 AM
@ Surrealist - Thanks a bunch! Lots of good info to chew on. The consensus seems to be that Modeler won't see much improvement for quite a while. Even so I think I will keep my license. I'm already familiar with Lightwave having used it years ago and as expected creating base meshes in Modeler for use in ZBrush is quick and easy although there is no GoZ. For the things Modeler can't do I'll just pick up another program rather than load up on plugins. Thanks again for taking the time to write up such a detailed reply.

Larry_g1s
07-08-2011, 08:50 AM
I'm sure the best option for all would be to allow you to turn them on or off.Watching some vids from Silo and it seems like that.

jeric_synergy
07-08-2011, 11:57 AM
Check out the entries from simplylightwave and simplymaya. Seems the quality of models from maya users are better than some lw users and this is from supposedly a weaker modelling app.
Or you can read Kat Myers' posts from the VFX department of IRON SKY and see his rants about Maya issues.

http://www.liberty3d.com/2011/06/iron-sky-day-37/

OnlineRender
07-08-2011, 12:04 PM
Or you can read Kat Myers' posts from the VFX department of IRON SKY and see his rants about Maya issues.

http://www.liberty3d.com/2011/06/iron-sky-day-37/

Swings and round-abouts , I also heard that LW caused some problems in which Maya could do "EASILY", but luckily there was Lscript written for just the job

jeric_synergy
07-08-2011, 12:50 PM
Swings and round-abouts ........
I had to look that up. :D

Lewis
07-08-2011, 12:55 PM
Despite all that, Modeler is still quite useful sitting next to Maya and Cinema4d.

Unless you need Hi-polycount, then it's unusable - really 0.2 FPS is unusable ;) :D.

so yes I agree with hrgiger, modeler LACKS very much and yes you can do many thing (almost everything) but most of things lacking are workarounds or purchasing 3rd party plugins which aren't so cheap when you consider what is lacking and would need to be purchased to match it up to other apps.

Modeler didn't get proper update for 5+ years and previous update was just half finished edge adding and including few 3d party plugins which never been updated since so you can say LW Modeler is pretty much where it was been 10 years ago (except edges half support and tumbling speed) :(.

DBMiller
07-08-2011, 01:07 PM
Or you can read Kat Myers' posts from the VFX department of IRON SKY and see his rants about Maya issues.

http://www.liberty3d.com/2011/06/iron-sky-day-37/

That was an eye opener for sure! :newtek:

Bill Carey
07-08-2011, 01:12 PM
so yes I agree with hrgiger, modeler LACKS very much and yes you can do many thing (almost everything) but most of things lacking are workarounds or purchasing 3rd party plugins which aren't so cheap when you consider what is lacking and would need to be purchased to match it up to other apps.


Working with the beta builds is an eye opener. Trying to model without vertibevel, swiftedgeloop and a few others can get painful pretty quickly. :)

Lewis
07-08-2011, 01:52 PM
Ok to bring it o next level (and give another argument ;)) can someone recommend me plugin where I can animate bevel operations :)? Or how i can change number of segments in simple BOX object without making it from scratch ;)? etc. etc.

I hope it's more clear now what most of us say when we say modeler is lacking serious updates ?

P.S. I'm working on daily basis of modeler so i know it deeply and know it's limitations very fine, heck I'm dealing with many of them on daily basis :)

Larry_g1s
07-08-2011, 03:53 PM
Or you can read Kat Myers' posts from the VFX department of IRON SKY and see his rants about Maya issues.

http://www.liberty3d.com/2011/06/iron-sky-day-37/Again, this is per his needs. I really like to see someone do solid character animation in LightWave with "any degree of elegance, speed or intuitiveness" compared to Maya. LW is so ridiculously wonky in this area. At iAnimat.net we have amazing characters and rigs not done by 50 TD's, but a couple of guys. My point is, it comes down to needs and there is a big reason why many houses who do use LW in their production won't touch it when it comes to key areas like rigging and animation. I'm not hating on LW, I've enjoyed it for 11 years. But to say "Autodesks best feature for Maya is its marketing." is crazy. No amount of marketing is going to save an app that one has to depend on day in day out and survive in this field.

That said, this thread is in regards to Modeler. For me, with the lack of support it's got over the years, if it wasn't for LWCAD I'd probably been gone some time back. It's not that it's not capable, too many guys on this forum to prove that wrong. It's just that there are other applications with more intuitive modeling tools.

shrox
07-08-2011, 04:01 PM
There is allot of workaround in Lightwave.

What do the current 9.6 layout modeling tools do? I have never been able to get anything to happen.

Sensei
07-08-2011, 04:02 PM
What do the current 9.6 layout modeling tools do? I have never been able to get anything to happen.

You need to have object- make null first, then run them..

shrox
07-08-2011, 04:07 PM
You need to have object- make null first, then run them..

Thanks.

I'll bet if I had looked it up in the frakking manual I would have known...slacker I am!

IMI
07-10-2011, 04:06 AM
Preaching to the choir here bro'. :)
Yes, modeller can do stuff, but hey, try saying it can *minus* any 3rd party plugins and it becomes a bit more problematical.

Yep, for sure, many of the plugins are free, some 3rd party devs just plain ROCK! However, failings of native tools relying on 3rd party is hardly "development".

I've given up completely on Newtek actually delivering anything worthwhile in modeller before LW12, if then, simply due to the borderline obsession with new layout tools.
Quite hi-larious when you think the answer from Newetk-ians seems to be, if you need a better modeller now, buy another product to "enhance" your LW "pipeline".
Umm, yeah, 'kay. :p

Yeah, this, completely.
To add to that, if you use 64 bit LW, you can run into the problem of not being able to find 64 bit plugins. At least that happened to me on several occasions. The standard answer then is to install 32 bit LW and use 32 bit plugins for those occasions. But then if you want any consistency, you also have to have your 32 and 64 bit configs set up the same - keyboard shortcuts, custom menus and all that good stuff. Which can be a huge hassle if you have your configs highly customized.

So you're in the middle of modeling something and just want to keep at it, when suddenly lo and behold you have to go searching all over the help files or 'net to find out how to do one thing. Then you find out Modeler simply can't do that one thing, so you have to first find and then install a plugin. Oops, well whaddya know, there's no 64 bit version of that so now I have to install 32 bit LW for this...

Well, before I added Modo and later Softimage, this was a problem. It isn't a problem anymore though since I can easily send models back and forth from one to the other all day long and it's a great way to work.

But what about the noobs?
"Hey I was trying to follow this 3ds max tutorial and since it's only simple polygon modeling it was going okay tho a little rough at times lol but then it says to delete these edges and I can't find the delete edges tool in Modeler..."

And, well, you know. ;)

Maya and max and Modo and to a lesser extent Softimage (ICE modeling) recently all got huge improvements to their already excellent modeling tools, and built-in too. Just saying and all...

Yeah if you know what you're doing and have all the necessary plugins, Modeler is great. Well, unless you're using high poly objects, and it doesn't take much to totally bog down Modeler and make it completely unusable, but that's a different subject altogether.

geo_n
07-10-2011, 05:03 AM
Well, before I added Modo and later Softimage, this was a problem. It isn't a problem anymore though since I can easily send models back and forth from one to the other all day long and it's a great way to work.

But what about the noobs?
"Hey I was trying to follow this 3ds max tutorial and since it's only simple polygon modeling it was going okay tho a little rough at times lol but then it says to delete these edges and I can't find the delete edges tool in Modeler..."
.

I'm not rich to have modo, xsi and lightwave. I'm keeping lw and export obj when needed.
You can remove edges in lightwave by using "remove" not delete. Following modelling tutorials is becoming more generic with all appz.

IMI
07-10-2011, 05:32 AM
I'm not rich to have modo, xsi and lightwave. I'm keeping lw and export obj when needed.
You can remove edges in lightwave by using "remove" not delete. Following modelling tutorials is becoming more generic with all appz.

You don't have to be rich, just have to have someone else pay for it for you. :D
Anyway I wasn't asking how to do it, I was using a noob question as an example. Maybe not the greatest example though. Yeah, "dissolve". Silliest tool name ever.

But, why can't you just use delete or backspace like in most other apps? The simple Delete key works with points and polys, why not edges?

I'm referring to LW 9.x by the way. No idea if LW 10 has that ability.

But my main point is, there are many things that you can't do in Modeler without a 3rd party plugin, or that you you need a plugin for in order to do it better or more "normally". And it just seems strange to me how comparatively little attention Modeler has received over the years while Layout has grown by leaps and bounds.

geo_n
07-10-2011, 05:57 AM
You don't have to be rich, just have to have someone else pay for it for you. :D
Anyway I wasn't asking how to do it, I was using a noob question as an example. Maybe not the greatest example though. Yeah, "dissolve". Silliest tool name ever.

But, why can't you just use delete or backspace like in most other apps? The simple Delete key works with points and polys, why not edges?

I'm referring to LW 9.x by the way. No idea if LW 10 has that ability.

But my main point is, there are many things that you can't do in Modeler without a 3rd party plugin, or that you you need a plugin for in order to do it better or more "normally". And it just seems strange to me how comparatively little attention Modeler has received over the years while Layout has grown by leaps and bounds.

Not dissolve. There's "remove" in lw 9.6 ever since. I swap the shortcut key with delete before :D
As long as you can do it with a plugin or script, free or not I see no problem. Atleast there's an option.
There's bigger fish to fry which there's no option right now, like integrating modeller to layout so we can have a unified app that can access modelling as animation, procedural, parametric, nodal, etc.

IMI
07-10-2011, 06:03 AM
Not dissolve. There's "remove" in lw 9.6 ever since. I swap the shortcut key with delete before :D
As long as you can do it with a plugin or script, free or not I see no problem. Atleast there's an option.
There's bigger fish to fry which there's no option right now, like integrating modeller to layout so we can have a unified app that can access modelling as animation, procedural, parametric, nodal, etc.

Never mind. Obviously you missed my point entirely.

Yeah, there are bigger fish to fry, but this thread isn't about all those fish, it's about one specific fish that needs medical aid, not assassination.

geo_n
07-10-2011, 06:49 AM
Never mind. Obviously you missed my point entirely.

Yeah, there are bigger fish to fry, but this thread isn't about all those fish, it's about one specific fish that needs medical aid, not assassination.

Your point that modeller needs a lot of thirdparty tools which is not a problem at all because it is there. Max and maya have tons of scripts and plugins. No problem there too.
The OP point is that lightwave can't be used for serious modelling. Thats far from the truth. All these modo, xsi, maya, lw modelling is becoming generic and one app can't produce better models than the other. Its up to the artist. This is modelling, one of the most generic/basic things to do in 3D. Looking at the simplylightwave link I posted it shows there's very good modelling from maya which is considered inferior by some. It doesn't look inferior to me.

IMI
07-10-2011, 07:11 AM
Your point that modeller needs a lot of thirdparty tools which is not a problem at all because it is there. Max and maya have tons of scripts and plugins. No problem there too.
The OP point is that lightwave can't be used for serious modelling. Thats far from the truth. All these modo, xsi, maya, lw modelling is becoming generic and one app can't produce better models than the other. Its up to the artist. This is modelling, one of the most generic/basic things to do in 3D. Looking at the simplylightwave link I posted it shows there's very good modelling from maya which is considered inferior by some. It doesn't look inferior to me.


Well apparently you didn't get my point because I didn't say the problem is that Modeler needs a lot of 3rd party tools, I said it's a pain in the *** to have to find what you need when you need it. Especially when you suddenly realize you need something that doesn't exist without a plugin and then have to search for it and install it. Meanwhile the clock is ticking away while you should be working on your project.

Yeah Maya, etc use a lot of scripts and plugins, but they also have far more *modern* modeling tools built in.
Everyone always says, "Yeah but you also have to use plugins in (insert X app name here)" as if that were some kind of excuse.
I have exactly one external plugin for Softimage and no plugins for Modo. I have something like 20 for Modeler. Reason being, Soft and Modo have what I need already built in.

And I am by far not the only person to mention this, not by a long shot. People have been requesting for YEARS that Modeler gets some serious love and all the Modeler updates are always pretty minor compared to Layout.

Well excuse me for having an opinion about this. It should have been evident that my post was not about what Modeler can do WITH 3rd party plugins, but what you CAN'T do without them and the hassle of having to find and use them.

I never said Modeler was somehow innately inferior and I disagree with the OP that it can't be used for serious modeling, but that's not what I was talking about. I was agreeing with colkai's post, which I quoted.

Skald
07-10-2011, 09:59 AM
There seems to be a misunderstanding running through this thread that I'd like to clarify. I can see how some might interpret the word "serious" used in the original post as an insult to there work, never intended by the way, and I probably should have been more to the point and written something like this instead:

Does anyone have any idea if/when Modeler will get the basic tools already included in competing packages so that I can do things which are integral to my modeling process like, easily UV unwarp a complicated mesh, slide an edge, add an edge loop, cut edges and polygons, retopo a mesh to make it more suitable for sculpting, model in the perspective window with a gizmo, etc. Blender can do most of these things and it's free.

I figured most would be familiar with the missing tools in Modeler and would get my point. Some did, some didn't.

The "It's the artist not the tool" mantra is a red herring. Certain jobs require certain tools. There is a reason the Game Development forum has tumbleweeds blowing through it. Most game companies gave up on Lightwave a long time ago and moved to other packages. Not because they think Maya or Max, etc. will make them better artists but because those packages have the tools necessary to do the things they need to do. I'm absolutely confident no one here wanting Modeler changes is looking for magical tools to make them better artists.

Iain
07-10-2011, 10:09 AM
I figured most would be familiar with the missing tools in Modeler and would get my point. Some did, some didn't.

The "It's the artist not the tool" mantra is a red herring. Certain jobs require certain tools. There is a reason the Game Development forum has tumbleweeds blowing through it.

This is true but games are not the only side of 3D and I think games people have always been Max/Maya oriented.
Arch viz is the biggest sector of CGI and Modeler (particularly with LWCad ) is a great tool for that.

sammael
07-10-2011, 10:21 AM
This is true but games are not the only side of 3D and I think games people have always been Max/Maya oriented.


Skald has a good point regarding games development though and it is frustrating that just a few simple tools common to these other apps could turn this around. But after years of asking we still don't have them.
Particularly solid built in uv tools is pretty unbelievable and this being an essential tool for any modeling genre.

jeric_synergy
07-10-2011, 10:31 AM
I said it's a pain in the *** to have to find what you need when you need it. Especially when you suddenly realize you need something that doesn't exist without a plugin and then have to search for it and install it. Meanwhile the clock is ticking away while you should be working on your project.
While I love LWModeler I gotta agree with this.

AND, the example with "Remove" (vs "Delete") really supports this: YES (we knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww) there is a fix, but it's not easy to know, to remember, or to find out. It makes using LWModeler a series of secret pass-words, and that is Not Good. What are we, the Masons?

NewTek should have replaced Delete with Remove in the default configurations long ago. It's a mystery why they haven't. Frankly, it's sloppy.

Perhaps reading this they will.

Maybe we can kill this thread:


Modeler, while very capable, needs modernizing. Okay??

can we go now?

GandB
07-10-2011, 11:12 AM
Been talking about the lack of attention in the Game Dev arena for a few years now; it's obvious NewTek isn't interested...time to move on. Especially with Rob now at the helm, so to speak; can't see him focusing on anything to do with Game Dev at all.

Telling people to use "XYZ" workarounds, or to use another package as an "add-on" to Lightwave is just being dismissive. Modeler should have had attention years ago; instead of being an afterthought. NewTek needs a constant stream of revenue to remain viable and expand; they need new users and current users to upgrade, or they will go the way of TrueSpace. That's it, and that's all.

dwburman
07-10-2011, 11:27 AM
You can use BandsawPro to add edge loops.

I agree that it's time for modeler to get some love.

I do hope we won't be forced to click and drag on gizmos for every change. Having to target a specific place on the screen for clicking and dragging is a bit slower than just clicking and dragging wherever the pointer is.

sammael
07-10-2011, 11:28 AM
This whole thread is like déjà vu all over again if you ask me, nobody listened in the past and I'll be mighty suprised if they listen now. We had some hope in Core but now that has been ground to dust in typical Newtekesque style :)
Like a stupid Leming I remain hopeful though :) I look forward to this same discussion in another few years, I think ill skip the ones inbetween though if thats ok? I'm getting tired in my old bones after all the threads over the years.

Iain
07-10-2011, 11:31 AM
Skald has a good point regarding games development though and it is frustrating that just a few simple tools common to these other apps could turn this around. But after years of asking we still don't have them.
Particularly solid built in uv tools is pretty unbelievable and this being an essential tool for any modeling genre.

I totally agree.

I don't think development on a 3d app should ever stand still and LW has stood still in certain areas for far too long.
It still has strengths though, especially for a very cheap app, and I don't think the original post is fair, regardless of the qualification posted since.

tyrot
07-10-2011, 12:36 PM
"Just add more polygon (multi million) support (it is crawling as hell)"


That is all ...LWCAD and pictrix and others did the rest already...

funk
07-10-2011, 02:38 PM
NewTek should have replaced Delete with Remove in the default configurations long ago. It's a mystery why they haven't. Frankly, it's sloppy.



Delete got replaced with Remove (default shortcuts) in build 2144

jasonwestmas
07-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Core had some really nice advanced tool operations but it was lacking so much in the fundamental areas of a modeling session that I couldn't use it for very long before I had to go to another modeler. I mean core's mirroring function and symmetry were pretty much broken and nonexistent. I can't model for long without those functions working perfectly.

LWModeler has plenty of fundamental zip so it is far from useless though more clicky and linear than I would like.

hrgiger
07-10-2011, 02:58 PM
"Just add more polygon (multi million) support (it is crawling as hell)"


That is all ...LWCAD and pictrix and others did the rest already...

That would be a good start for sure but only a part of the problem.

LWCAD itself is hampered by modelers weak performance. We were supposed to get NURBS surfaces in LWCAD 4 but they are too slow in modeler to be viable.

jeric_synergy
07-10-2011, 04:05 PM
Whatever management process modulates how resources get applied needs the work: obviously the in-house proponents of Modeler are losing out to the Layout proponents in the resource allocation stakes. Time for the tide to turn a bit and achieve a more viable balance.

geo_n
07-10-2011, 08:50 PM
I totally agree.

I don't think development on a 3d app should ever stand still and LW has stood still in certain areas for far too long.
It still has strengths though, especially for a very cheap app, and I don't think the original post is fair, regardless of the qualification posted since.

Yes it shouldn't stand still I agree. But more work on smaller things just delays the bigger issue to have unified modeller/layout and have actual missing features in lightwave like stack, node, parametric, etc. The simple tools that modeller is missing now, uvunwrap, slide edges, etc are filled by third party plugins and googling them is not a difficult task. I have tons of scripts for 3dmax and maya that if scriptspot didn't exist well.....pain in the *** I guess :thumbsup:



AND, the example with "Remove" (vs "Delete") really supports this: YES (we knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww) there is a fix, but it's not easy to know, to remember, or to find out.

AD must think 3dmax users are mason, too. How on earth could I know that backspace removes edges. I go to forums, learn techniques from pros, watch video tutorials. Its not in the 3dmax manual. It's not easy to know, to remember, or to find out.
And after sometime I found out ctrl backspace remove edges and end points. wtf AD this is so cryptic program. :D
Seems like people learning other software criticize lightwave so much without actually learning what lightwave can or cant do.No credibility just plainly want to critcize.
As t4d said, learn the toolset. Or do what pooby does, show what xsi can do that lw can't so we can integrate better toolset. Im not one to defend newtek, I actually push 3dmax features and vray for lightwave all the time :D, but some post are just plain putting down lightwave with no constructive criticism.

ncr100
07-10-2011, 10:14 PM
...
AND, the example with "Remove" (vs "Delete") really supports this: YES (we knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww) there is a fix, but it's not easy to know, to remember, or to find out. It makes using LWModeler a series of secret pass-words, and that is Not Good. What are we, the Masons?
...


Hilarious, and tragic. Rob can fix this (by wrangling his beefed-up team) and set LW on a path of consistency. I believe NT wants to do this.

Sensei
07-10-2011, 10:27 PM
I do hope we won't be forced to click and drag on gizmos for every change. Having to target a specific place on the screen for clicking and dragging is a bit slower than just clicking and dragging wherever the pointer is.

That's exactly mine thinking while designing TrueArt's tools like EasySplit, EasyMesh, SwiftEdgeLoop etc.
Click entity, whatever it is, then do operation related to this entity..

It might be even better that Core is gone, at least right mouse button will be passed to interactive tools, instead of stolen entirely for context menus, and interactive tool will decide whether or not, show menu or do some other alternative operation, like in 90% of mine tools (as customers know-SwiftEdgeLoop uses right mouse button to create new edge loop, EasyMesh to create new geometry, where left mouse button is used to modification of existing geometry, which is great time saver).

erikals
07-10-2011, 11:53 PM
Translate Plus is too slow, hope NT can upgrade it... :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ZDLVlot_A#t=1m51s

 

erikals
07-11-2011, 12:00 AM
Other then slow and broken CC subdivision, many tools not interactive, no Nurbs, poor performance of high polygon models, no construction plane, no transform/rotation/scale handles, no instancing, weak UV toolset, weak snapping options, many tools dont' work with edges, no sculpt or paint toolset, only 4 action centers, no GoZ, no history, or no retopo modeler is great.

so, you like the knife tool i guess...?!
hehe... \:]

well, despite it all, modeler is great... but NT, don't sleep...
 

mav3rick
07-11-2011, 04:13 AM
Ok to bring it o next level (and give another argument ;)) can someone recommend me plugin where I can animate bevel operations :)? Or how i can change number of segments in simple BOX object without making it from scratch ;)? etc. etc.


u won't find those in lightwhine, neither in one of favorite VS app previously mention in this thread unless you look for autodesk solutions :)

Lewis
07-11-2011, 04:17 AM
u won't find those in lightwhine, neither in one of favorite VS app previously mention in this thread unless you look for autodesk solutions :)

C4D has parametric modeling it and it's not AD product.

mav3rick
07-11-2011, 04:23 AM
oh so now we are talking c4d :) considering that over mojo ? :) never though c4d to be some serious modeling package

Lewis
07-11-2011, 04:35 AM
oh so now we are talking c4d :) considering that over mojo ? :) never though c4d to be some serious modeling package

Well considering how good it handles polycounts in that test I showed recently about polycount it was best of the rest for FPS/speed, why wouldn't it be considered as good tool for modeling?

mav3rick
07-11-2011, 04:51 AM
just a thought :) so cinema is way to go with modeling ?:) looks like it's all about polycunt and history stack nowadays

hrgiger
07-11-2011, 05:08 AM
just a thought :) so cinema is way to go with modeling ?:) looks like it's all about polycunt and history stack nowadays

I know what it's not about these days. And that's an application where modeling doesnt' receive any truly significant upgrade over several years.

probiner
07-11-2011, 06:27 AM
just a thought :) so cinema is way to go with modeling ?:) looks like it's all about polycunt and history stack nowadays

It's nice to have the option to change the settings of some editing you made before instead of having multiple layers as backups and have to do it all over again. From the top of my head: Rounder Operations, Patching, New Geometry, Multishifts, etc, etc...

2 Tools I would very much like to see available in LW.
Cinema 4D Solid Chamfer: Brilliant to add instants Control Edges for Subdivision. It's like an extended Rounder.
Wings3D Circularize: It's so simple and so powerfull. Again, to have the ability to do several things with the same command is the way, it's brain tight. You can straight up an open edge loop with even spaces, make it round/circular. Or circularize and size a closed edge loop. All with actually edge selection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjO6NltRaI&t=31s


Cheers

Lewis
07-11-2011, 06:48 AM
Wings3D Circularize: It's so simple and so powerfull. Again, to have the ability to do several things with the same command is the way its brain tight. You can straight up an open edge segment with even spaces, make it round/circular. Or circularize and size a closed edge loop. All with actually edge selection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjO6NltRaI&t=31s


Cheers

Yes, both are very good and well thought out tools which obviously works in many situations unlike many LW modeling tools which have big issues when you model at certain angle which is not straight or at center :(.

Lewis
07-11-2011, 06:53 AM
Can you link to that thread? I seem to have missed it.

It's in that HC topic where i showed polygon handling :
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1153326&postcount=58

dee tested that benchmark in C4D also:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1153375&postcount=60

geo_n
07-11-2011, 06:58 AM
Wings3D Circularize: It's so simple and so powerfull. Again, to have the ability to do several things with the same command is the way its brain tight.


That's exactly mine thinking while designing TrueArt's tools like EasySplit, EasyMesh, SwiftEdgeLoop etc.
Click entity, whatever it is, then do operation related to this entity..


Sensei-san,
I'm using a 3dmax script at work. A "smart tool" related to entity selection mode. I only press one shortcutkey everytime. Saves me from memory loss which buttons do what in what mode.

In vertex mode
No points selected its a cutting tool
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6025/smarttool0006layer1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/smarttool0006layer1.jpg/)

Two points selected its a weld tool
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/6621/smarttool0005layer2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/smarttool0005layer2.jpg/)

More than two points selected its a connect tool.

In edge mode
One edge selected its create midpoint tool

Two edge selected its a bridge tool
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5614/smarttool0004layer3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/smarttool0004layer3.jpg/)
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6500/smarttool0003layer4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/smarttool0003layer4.jpg/)

Selecting edgeloops its a bandsawpro tool
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4650/smarttool0001layer5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/smarttool0001layer5.jpg/)



In poly mode
No poly selected its create polygon tool

One or more poly selected its smoothshift tool.
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/532/smarttool0000layer7.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/smarttool0000layer7.jpg/)


One button or kbshrtcut for all that. The script I use is not hardcoded so its actually possible to edit commands to have spinedge when one edge is selected, or bevel instead of smoothshift when one or more polys selected. Up to the user. Maybe an lscript or plugin can be made for lightwave by one of the lw plugin guru.

When I say mode I meant like pressing 1,2,3,4 in 3dmax or spacebar in lw to change mode. The actual script doesn't have any mode as it adapts to what is current mode in the software and I just press shortcut.

probiner
07-11-2011, 07:26 AM
One button or kbshrtcut for all that. The script I use is not hardcoded so its actually possible to edit commands to have spinedge when one edge is selected, or bevel instead of smoothshift when one or more polys selected. Up to the user.

This!
Something that would allow an user to call tools, or tool pipes (modo), run plugin, etc based on pressed shortcut and selection type and that can be saved to a profile is very powerful!

toddd240
07-11-2011, 09:36 AM
This!
Something that would allow an user to call tools, or tool pipes (modo), run plugin, etc based on pressed shortcut and selection type and that can be saved to a profile is very powerful!

As a Lightwave and modo user, I love this ability in modo.

One of the reasons I only rarely model in Lightwave anymore. modo's ability to customize this makes my modeling so much faster.

geo_n
07-11-2011, 10:50 AM
This!
Something that would allow an user to call tools, or tool pipes (modo), run plugin, etc based on pressed shortcut and selection type and that can be saved to a profile is very powerful!

More than the macro aspect, its just great i only need one button to execute 50% of my poly modelling workflow. Context aware, right term? I may wear out my kb "s" button. Lol. Someone could probably make this little script for lw for a few yens. The commands already exist in lw anyway and just needs to be combined and mode aware.

Rayek
07-11-2011, 01:08 PM
Well apparently you didn't get my point because I didn't say the problem is that Modeler needs a lot of 3rd party tools, I said it's a pain in the *** to have to find what you need when you need it. Especially when you suddenly realize you need something that doesn't exist without a plugin and then have to search for it and install it. Meanwhile the clock is ticking away while you should be working on your project.

Agree - having to hunt down that plugin when you need it can be very cumbersome.

That is why I feel an approach like Firefox's add-ons can work wonderfully well: keep a central repository of automatically updated plugins online, and provide an easy interface to quickly activate and de-activate when and if you need them.

Actually, Blender already implemented a similar add-on system, which is very neat - but it lacks the online connection. Although builds with all the add-ons installed by default are available online.

I think a LW plugin repository approach would simplify the process enormously.

Shiny_Mike
07-11-2011, 02:31 PM
(snip)
Cinema 4D Solid Chamfer: Brilliant to add instants Control Edges for Subdivision. It's like an extended Rounder.(snip)
Cheers

!! this tool would be an enormous time saver! I've been wanting it for a long time. It seems to me that LWCad is very close to having this functionality - if only elements of Mass Offset and Mass Round (div 1) could be combined.