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nickdigital
06-24-2011, 06:50 PM
Interesting article. I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon. I think it was nice for Rob and NewTek to get out there and speak on the recent developments.

http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/06/rob-powers-on-lightwaves-three-year-roadmap/

Here's to the next 3 years. :thumbsup:

realgray
06-24-2011, 07:01 PM
Very interesting and I hope that this works out. 3 years is a long time however and the competition will not be standing still.

VonBon
06-24-2011, 07:17 PM
the competition will be standing still if its an Autodesk product, unless
they buyout another company. MAX cant get right so the just buy the
competition. Maya and XSI are stuck with a company who doesnt know
how to innovate or create a good product, for if they did there would
have been no reason to buyout Maya and XSI.

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 07:30 PM
the competition will be standing still if its an Autodesk product, unless
they buyout another company. MAX cant get right so the just buy the
competition. Maya and XSI are stuck with a company who doesnt know
how to innovate or create a good product, for if they did there would
have been no reason to buyout Maya and XSI.

I dissagree with you there. The softimage community is pretty happy with its progress under Autodesk. Cant really say much about the others but I know alot of Max and Maya users were happy with the viewport improvements at least. So Autodesk is doing a pretty good job so far. So saying the competition is standing still is false. Newtek not only have to catch up to the others. Modo and C4D included but they have to find a way to surpass them. History tells you that they are pushing a brown lump up a steep hill with a knitting needle. The biggest thing Newtek has to fix is public opininon of Newtek and Lightwave. It is fast turning into a huge joke in the 3D community. I wish them all the best. Time will tell.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:37 PM
I wish them all the best

Thanks for the support Craig.

VonBon
06-24-2011, 07:37 PM
what has AD updated in XSI and Maya since under their control?

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the support Craig.

It may have come across bad. But i do hope Newtek do well.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:42 PM
what has AD updated in XSI and Maya since under their control?

Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but it is kinda interesting. On Autodesk's homepage, in the "Products" dropdown menu and the main banner, Softimage is nowhere to be found, it's relegated to the "All Products" section, you have to go hunting for it.

What's all that about? Makes you wonder.

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 07:42 PM
what has AD updated in XSI and Maya since under their control?

ICE kinimatics
ICE Modeling
Improved ICE workflow for non tech guys.
Lagoa
Opened all mental ray shaders
IES lights
Work flow improvements.
Composite and Matchmover added (Can be taken as a good or bad thing)
Im sure there are some that I have missed.

As i said cant really talk about Maya or max.

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 07:44 PM
Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but it is kinda interesting. On Autodesk's homepage, in the "Products" dropdown menu and the main banner, Softimage is nowhere to be found, it's relegated to the "All Products" section, you have to go hunting for it.

What's all that about? Makes you wonder.

Yea thats been an issue for a while. But adding it to there max and maya entertainment suits seams to be working, as far as getting it into more studios.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:45 PM
Yea thats been an issue for a while. But adding it to there max and maya entertainment suits seams to be working, as far as getting it into more studios.

It's almost like they are embarrassed by it, or maybe its just their web guy dropped a huge clanger!

VonBon
06-24-2011, 07:50 PM
its a strategy to phase it out.

Im sure they can make improvments on ICE any1 could couldnt they, but
AD didnt come up with ICE. as far as Lagoa, i thought it was created by
an individual (i not sure) and purchased by AD.

Lightwolf
06-24-2011, 08:19 PM
What's all that about? Makes you wonder.
Since you asked...

Softimage is effectively only marketed as a primary product to Japan apparently, since that's where it has the largest market share.

Essentially, AD doesn't push every product equally across the globe.

Cheers,
Mike

Paul_Boland
06-24-2011, 08:23 PM
Quote from article:
"Version 10.1, due for release at the end of the month, builds on 10.0′s VPR and file interchange system, but adds no complete new toolsets. It remains to be seen what the rest of NewTek’s three-year roadmap will hold."

I'm not pleased to hear that 10.1 will not feature any new tools, surely this is in error? What about the Bullet Physics, just when can we expect to see that?

And, another 3 year roadmap... Umm... I wish Newtek all the best but I have my doubts, particular if the 10.1 comment turns out to be correct.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 08:24 PM
The biggest thing Newtek has to fix is public opininon of Newtek and Lightwave.I don't disagree with this. It will be a challenge, and good people are working very hard at it. As has been said repeatedly, it's going to take more than talk to accomplish that goal.

Matt
06-24-2011, 08:27 PM
I'm not pleased to hear that 10.1 will not feature any new tools, surely this is in error? What about the Bullet Physics, just when can we expect to see that?

10.1 is a _maintenance release_ only, it is not supposed to have new features in it. That said, there are some nice additions, to the _existing_ tools.

Paul_Boland
06-24-2011, 08:33 PM
Thanks, Matt. Not exactly what I wanted to hear but I appreciate the update.

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 08:49 PM
its a strategy to phase it out.

Im sure they can make improvments on ICE any1 could couldnt they, but
AD didnt come up with ICE. as far as Lagoa, i thought it was created by
an individual (i not sure) and purchased by AD.

My point was that other apps arnt standing still. Didnt Newtek hire the fiberfx guy???

3D Kiwi
06-24-2011, 08:49 PM
Since you asked...

Softimage is effectively only marketed as a primary product to Japan apparently, since that's where it has the largest market share.

Essentially, AD doesn't push every product equally across the globe.

Cheers,
Mike

Didnt know that. Thanks.

hrgiger
06-24-2011, 09:08 PM
Since you asked...

Softimage is effectively only marketed as a primary product to Japan apparently, since that's where it has the largest market share.



Japan and Pooby.

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm still a bit upset over this (man 2.5 years :cry:), and a bit in "dis-belief". That said, I've had a chance to clear my head and gather some thoughts: I've still really enjoyed LW these last 11 years and that hasn't changed, it's still a good 3D application (partly what has made the news so bitter). And as much as I enjoy using Maya for character animation, I really hope NT succeeds since it'll be good for competition and make it nice to have a non-AD alternative. Also, I know despite this roller coaster, NT has a very talented team, that has worked very hard through out the years.

So in short...yes I'm a bit jaded, and going to be gun-shy with new releases here on out, but I'm still routing for you guys and the software. So good luck!

Thanks for posting the article, I'll check it out.

JohnMarchant
06-24-2011, 11:49 PM
Yea thats been an issue for a while. But adding it to there max and maya entertainment suits seams to be working, as far as getting it into more studios.

Well i cant speak for Maya but i know many in the Max community are not happy at all with Max 2012

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 11:53 PM
Since you asked...

Softimage is effectively only marketed as a primary product to Japan apparently, since that's where it has the largest market share.

Essentially, AD doesn't push every product equally across the globe.

Cheers,
MikeIs this comment simple from observation? Nothing wrong with that, just looking to know.


Japan and Pooby.Ha ha ha

cagey5
06-25-2011, 01:12 AM
Good to see Rob getting out to explain the changes. As an actual article it reads as typical web throw away news. i.e. poorly constructed, not proof read and lacking any depth. That's all criticism of the site/journalist btw not Rob.

pooby
06-25-2011, 01:50 AM
Japan and Pooby.


Correct.
I made a series of ice tutorials and by far the vast majority of downloads were Japan and Asia. Then Europe. The American Market is relatively tiny.
As regards to it's evolution, it has never seemed as healthy as it is now. Plugins and addons are coming out so fast it reminds me of flay dot coms golden era ten years ago.
So, as tempting as it may be to write off Xsi, the reality is utterly different.

inquisitive
06-25-2011, 03:38 AM
at what stage will Lightwave 3D have python scripting?

mav3rick
06-25-2011, 03:48 AM
congrat to Rob and team..hope they will deliver right vision this time... NT never had as strong and quality team as it is now.

Hieron
06-25-2011, 05:09 AM
Indeed. The only way is up now!

Stuff did change these last years, on the tool side but also on the marketing side. Just open up the newtek.com page and compare it with how it was a few years back. I'm with them and interested to see where it leads. Stuff doesn't happen overnight but I'm sure all noses are in the right direction now.

Goodluck chaps :)

SBowie
06-25-2011, 06:22 AM
Didnt Newtek hire the fiberfx guy???I haven't looked around yet to see the context of the question, but can say that FiberFX has gotten a lot of attention lately, and continues to. By all accounts, there has been quite a bit of improvement.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 06:23 AM
at what stage will Lightwave 3D have python scripting?About all that can be stated with any certainty at the moment is "Not this one", sorry.

Titus
06-25-2011, 08:11 AM
My company is small, sometimes we do fine, some days we don't. The hardest thing after getting clients is keeping them, so I wish NT all the best.

Netvudu
06-25-2011, 08:53 AM
ICE kinimatics
ICE Modeling
Improved ICE workflow for non tech guys.
Lagoa
Opened all mental ray shaders
IES lights
Work flow improvements.
Composite and Matchmover added (Can be taken as a good or bad thing)
Im sure there are some that I have missed.

As i said cant really talk about Maya or max.

Seriously, and just for the record. If this is what you list as things developed by Autodesk for Softimage, then Iīm afraid Softimage is doomed.

1. If Iīm not wrong, the two first ICE features you mentioned were already on development when AD took control. So AD simply didnīt stop that (which by itself already surprises me)

2. "Improved ICE workflow for non tech guys."- not a new feature. Interface improvements. BTW, non tech guys will have to turn into tech guys anyway if they are to seriously consider using ICE, which is indeed a terrific set of tools.

3. "Lagoa". This is a 3rd party effort by Thiago Costa. Nothing to do with Autodesk apart from including it in the package.

4. "Opened all mental ray shaders". Ummm..ok, so it was already there, and now we allow you to see whatīs there and touch it. Enough said.

5. "IES lights". Ok. A new feature. Better late than never as Lw users know so well.

6. "Work flow improvements." ermm..a bit general...are you talking about the view cube, maybe? :D

7."Composite and Matchmover added (Can be taken as a good or bad thing)" you mean crappy compositor and half-a$$ed matchmover being bolted into every AD pacakge because nobody is buying them otherwise? I wouldnīt count that as "Softimage development", sorry.

I may come as I donīt like Softimage. Big mistake. I think it is a wonderful package. I just think being owned by AD is bad for it, not good.

jasonwestmas
06-25-2011, 08:54 AM
It's almost like they are embarrassed by it, or maybe its just their web guy dropped a huge clanger!

Softimage is being marketed by AD as a deeper more specialized tools for things that utilize Face Robot, ICE special FX and more advanced character stuff in general. There are a lot of demo videos on the subject.

I really don't see SI going away based on what I've seen done with it.

littlewaves
06-25-2011, 09:14 AM
About all that can be stated with any certainty at the moment is "Not this one", sorry.

by "this one" do you mean 10.1 or the whole 10.x cycle?

or...
IS 10.1 the whole remaining 10.x cycle?

Nicolas Jordan
06-25-2011, 09:33 AM
at what stage will Lightwave 3D have python scripting?

I'm sure adding support for python it is part of the overall plan to update Lightwave over the next few years since this python was supported for Core.

JBT27
06-25-2011, 10:08 AM
Well, sensibly, Rob hasn't said anything of any real import there ... I saw the word 'probable' used for the unification of Modeler and Layout, but I'll only now believe it when I see it, and if it works. And that goes for anything else.

I've definitely settled into a new mindset for NT and LW after the past days, and that's good ... but unfortunately that mindset is rooted in zero trust and street cred for NT right now. What I have in front of me works OK for what I need. Anything else, well, again, I'll believe it when I see it.

What I do appreciate these past days also though, is people's comments about the competition. I might easily, had I the funds, jump to Max (most likely), though on reading some comments I'm not so sure ...

The truth is, if NT fail to deliver on the next big one, I'll be out, so will many others, and I suspect NT will be well on the downward slope anyway with no chance of clawing it back.

Julian.

JeffrySG
06-25-2011, 10:27 AM
The truth is, if NT fail to deliver on the next big one, I'll be out, so will many others, and I suspect NT will be well on the downward slope anyway with no chance of clawing it back.

Julian.
:agree:

Yep, I pretty much agree. I really hope NT can pull it off. We would all benefit as well as the whole industry. I do believe they will give it their best shot as there are many great people there!

zarti
06-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Interesting article. I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon. I think it was nice for Rob and NewTek to get out there and speak on the recent developments.

http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/06/rob-powers-on-lightwaves-three-year-roadmap/

Here's to the next 3 years. :thumbsup:

@ "next 3 years"
congrats for your enthusiasm .
you speak for the next 3 years as they are going to be 3 months .

@ "recent development"
do you remember that "Red Button" hanged somewhere here ?
that one ? .. that was nearly 3 months ago ?

:beerchug:

wibly wobly
06-25-2011, 11:20 AM
So, are we going to have to wait 3 years for a new version? The article doesn't really say much about what they're doing, where they want to do and what parts of core they want to put in are priority over others. 3 years is a really long time.

Elmar Moelzer
06-25-2011, 11:24 AM
I think that Python is not very hard to do. There are some very good way to implement Python support even into LWs current codebase.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 11:30 AM
by "this one" do you mean 10.1 or the whole 10.x cycle?
or...
IS 10.1 the whole remaining 10.x cycle?Certainly not in 10.1, and beyond that, I can only speculate. Forced to do that (and keeping in mind the 'value' of speculation in the first place), I am inclined to think that further 10 cycle updates (if any) will be in the nature of 10.1, maintenance updates, with the larger focus being on getting some real drive going toward LW11. I suspect the picture may be somewhat clearer in this respect after SIGGRAPH, but that too is speculation.

Philbert
06-25-2011, 11:33 AM
So, are we going to have to wait 3 years for a new version? The article doesn't really say much about what they're doing, where they want to do and what parts of core they want to put in are priority over others. 3 years is a really long time.

It says 3 years is the roadmap, how far out they've planned. Not 3 years until the next version.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 11:35 AM
Well, sensibly, Rob hasn't said anything of any real import there ... snip ... but unfortunately that mindset is rooted in zero trust and street cred for NT right now.I think these two points are actually related. NewTek has to deliver, words won't cut it - hence less words. The HC announcement was more explicit in this respect, making it fairly clear that the intention is to show rather than predict. I think almost everyone agrees that's best, if they think about it.

Samus
06-25-2011, 11:53 AM
Set back's after set back...i don't know if this is good news... just another
one to add to the pile. 3 years is a real long time and COre was just the Messiah that never was. INDEED Lw 10 interchange with main apps is a plus , VPR just eye Candy to me. Worley had that tackled about 7 years ago with Fprime....LW modeler still cannot handle more than 100 000 polys in modeler without chocking. Dynamics.... Lucky we got Hurley on the way
With Ibounce....but then again Newtek is counting on thir party developpers to save it's A#*. Cloth sim ... i had to go back to LW 8 with MD 2000 to have a better working cloth sim than Cloth Fx since i can Cranck up the itterations with now a day processors... and have descent results (funny cause Md 2000 those'nt work in 9.X and 10 series.) sigh...

is this the Dusk or the dawn for Newtek... Lightwave is my software of Choice...and i've got accross Many hurdles with it , in victory.
Rob(Miss Thang)Powers is indeed quite a good asset to Newtek IMO
Communication with him and his crew at newtek is indeed Better than
in the past. But Now lightwave Must DEliver!!

When you look back When former LW developpers left Newtek and Created Luxology MODO. the work Done and the Evolution of the software over time... Newtek Must do the same in less than a Year and not three.

Can newtek see how deceived must a Hardcore member be... placing
there trust and Money in COre.

Newtek Must deliver....they must... three years is already too LAte.

Elmar Moelzer
06-25-2011, 12:02 PM
3 years is a real long time
CORE would have been no where in 3 years from now. Look how little it had improved in the 1.5 years before Rob came along!


When you look back When former LW developpers left Newtek and Created Luxology MODO. the work Done and the Evolution of the software over time... Newtek Must do the same in less than a Year and not three.
Where is the logic in that? Modo is now 7 years old and still no where a complete product, nor does it have have all the features that people expected from CORE or an incrementally rewritten LW. Why do you think that anyone can do it faster than Luxology did it?
Besides Modo was not a start from scratch either.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 12:03 PM
the work Done and the Evolution of the software over time... Newtek Must do the same in less than a Year and not three.Why has this changed? Proceeding down the previous CORE-centric path would certainly have required at least another three years to reach fruition as a respectable standalone app. In many ways, LW is already closer to that standing - but setting that aside, why should the new dev approach be expected accelerate things, accomplishing in one year what no-one expected the prior approach to achieve until several more years down the road?

Elmar Moelzer
06-25-2011, 12:15 PM
Proceeding down the previous CORE-centric path would certainly have required at least another three years to reach fruition as a respectable standalone app.
My estimate would have been 5 to 7 years, because this is what Luxology has needed so far for Modo.

Samus
06-25-2011, 12:15 PM
What i should have Said is When they went to build MOdo,
Newtek Should have considered the Core Path.

Now here we are...Core efforts Dead or to be converted to LW10.x

SBowie
06-25-2011, 12:24 PM
Now here we are...Core efforts Dead or to be converted to LW10.xOn two different occasions, Mark Twain's death was incorrectly reported. His comments the second time it happened are less well know. Upon arriving safely he wrote an article offering to "...make an exhaustive investigation of this report that I have been lost at sea. If there is any foundation for the report, I will at once apprise the anxious public."

Likewise, as best I am informed, CORE is not dead. It has become a research animal that, unseen by most of the public, will continue to have a separate existence in symbiotic relationship with its LightWave host - until the fusion is so complete they are indistinguishable, then merge ... to emerge as LightWave.

Elmar Moelzer
06-25-2011, 12:25 PM
What i should have Said is When they went to build MOdo,
Newtek Should have considered the Core Path.
No, knowing what I know, it would have been a mistake back then too, IMHO even a bigger one.

Samus
06-25-2011, 12:40 PM
You got the insiders that i do not, i look from outside in .

I love Lightwave, Win my life with it...and i still want to earn my
way and craft my work with this tool and not another one.

My critics and worries are like any other LW users...worried..But
despite all Hopefull.

digitaldoc
06-25-2011, 12:48 PM
So, are we going to have to wait 3 years for a new version? The article doesn't really say much about what they're doing, where they want to do and what parts of core they want to put in are priority over others. 3 years is a really long time.

Wasn't the famous Hardcore countdown in Feb 2009? :question:

Dexter2999
06-25-2011, 01:11 PM
The American Market is relatively tiny.

Seems like the American market is almost entirely Maya. Most all the jobs are Maya listings. Most of the schools teach Maya. And anytime someone seems my work and likes it and asks "What did you use?" I reply, "Lightwave." The look on their faces...you would have thought I was trying to hand them a stick covered in poo. Yes, disgust and at best derision.

In a world of high tech. tools, LW is a hammer. Nothing wrong with hammers. Very useful things they are. It's just they aren't viewed as "sexy."

jasonwestmas
06-25-2011, 01:30 PM
What i should have Said is When they went to build MOdo,
Newtek Should have considered the Core Path.

Now here we are...Core efforts Dead or to be converted to LW10.x

Actually, I don't think that's what is going on. It's more like Lightwave converted to use Core SDK etc.

mav3rick
06-25-2011, 01:37 PM
In a world of high tech. tools, LW is a hammer. Nothing wrong with hammers. Very useful things they are. It's just they aren't viewed as "sexy."

but macho :) who can resist of pure octane 3d power .... those who can handle production without need of undo are real CG masters and womans love them ;) maya is for pussies as well other AD packages ;) ...

SBowie
06-25-2011, 01:39 PM
.... those who can handle production without need of undo are real CG masters.... and womans love them ;)Well there we have it - the next LW marketing campaign unveiled. :D

mav3rick
06-25-2011, 01:43 PM
yea .. one day if we ever get that undo working in layout i will ask for DISABLE undo feature to be implemented

jeric_synergy
06-25-2011, 01:43 PM
japan and pooby.
lol.

jeric_synergy
06-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Where is the logic in that? Modo is now 7 years old and still no where a complete product, nor does it have have all the features that people expected from CORE or an incrementally rewritten LW. Why do you think that anyone can do it faster than Luxology did it?
Besides Modo was not a start from scratch either.
Elmar, I think we're seeing a sterling example of the "grass is greener" syndrome.

Philbert
06-25-2011, 01:49 PM
I don't expect a completely finished Core in LW within one year, but I do expect LW to at least have everything that the last beta release of Core had, including the speed, before LW11.

mav3rick
06-25-2011, 01:53 PM
Elmar, I think we're seeing a sterling example of the "grass is greener" syndrome.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/9639161/funny-comic-desert-island-boat-land_large.jpg?1305063492

SBowie
06-25-2011, 02:02 PM
... but I do expect LW to at least have everything that the last beta release of Core had, including the speed, before LW11.That's kind of the problem, isn't it. For that to happen, you either have to finish CORE (which could take quite a bit of time and has turned out to be an evolutionary dead end), or extend the current dev cycle indefinitely ... because moving everything CORE already had (but in a seriously incomplete context) into LW isn't going to be a small task.

Some things can migrate more quickly, others will inevitably involve more deliberate (breakage) and massaging - taking longer. For better or worse, the decision seems to have been that the best course is to finish up 10, and get going on 11. I personally doubt that even a finished LW11 will embody 'everything that the last beta release of Core had'. I'd love to be wrong.

Cageman
06-25-2011, 02:05 PM
http://data.whicdn.com/images/9639161/funny-comic-desert-island-boat-land_large.jpg?1305063492

Hahaha.... that picture illustrates it SO WELL! Good find mav3rick!!!

:)

Matt
06-25-2011, 02:36 PM
http://data.whicdn.com/images/9639161/funny-comic-desert-island-boat-land_large.jpg?1305063492

Brilliant, I love that! :D

zarti
06-25-2011, 02:51 PM
http://data.whicdn.com/images/9639161/funny-comic-desert-island-boat-land_large.jpg?1305063492

where is the HUB.exe ?? ..

Bill1955
06-25-2011, 02:59 PM
I think these two points are actually related. NewTek has to deliver, words won't cut it - hence less words. The HC announcement was more explicit in this respect, making it fairly clear that the intention is to show rather than predict. I think almost everyone agrees that's best, if they think about it.

Is this speculation on your part?

SBowie
06-25-2011, 03:01 PM
Is speculation on your part?I'm sorry, I'm not sure of your meaning, if it pertains to the part of my remark that you quoted.

TheDynamo
06-25-2011, 03:39 PM
I really haven't seen anything here that I wouldn't say myself really. I was one of the initial Hard Core members and while the novelty of that soon wore off it did give me some insight as to the complexity of what Newtek is trying to accomplish. While I personally have been using Cinema 4D more in my professional life as it integrates more easily with my bread and butter application Adobe After Effects, I still hold out a small amount of hope that I will eventually see an application come from these guys that will meet and exceed their competitors. I often refer to it as my $395 wager that they might. I wish them the best, they have a long road ahead of them.

-TheDynamo

Bill1955
06-25-2011, 03:53 PM
Why has this changed? Proceeding down the previous CORE-centric path would certainly have required at least another three years to reach fruition as a respectable standalone app. In many ways, LW is already closer to that standing - but setting that aside, why should the new dev approach be expected accelerate things, accomplishing in one year what no-one expected the prior approach to achieve until several more years down the road?

Actually a whole lot of folks expected CORE in one year as initially promised. Many folks here defended this view, probably you included, until the first deadline was missed. After all that's why a bunch of folks bought into CORE.

A few would like the rest of us to forget what the initial CORE promise was and to start the CORE discussion from the moment Rob arrived.

The part about this is that rubs me the wrong way is that as late as the last big show, Rob was full speed ahead selling the Hardcore membership along with Lightwave 10 and CORE knowing that they were going to push out the door whatever they had by December 2010 no matter how incomplete it was, and they did.

LW 10.1 should fix the unfinished work that should have gone into LW 10 before it went out the door.

I do like what Rob has done since he has been in charge but I think he owes some folks an apology for misleading them into buying something that wasn't. And before some of you jump all over me about how he is still going to delivered what he promised but he will do it by some other approach, the fact is that it is not going to be what he sold them on just a few months back.

Other facts are that we where supposed to get CORE in a year for $395.00 , I believed it was. Not only did we not get CORE, we will have to pay a lot more money and hope that at some point down the road Lightwave 3D blooms into we don't know what at this point, and anyone that says they do is just speculating as we all have been doing for the last 2.5 years.

The funny part is that some of the folks that came closer to the truth about the hardcore program over the last 2.5 year have been banned from this forums.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 04:11 PM
Actually a whole lot of folks expected CORE in one year as initially promised.Well certainly no-one I know. People expected CORE 1.0 in a shorter period of time, though most I think felt (including me) the timetable was at least somewhat optimistic - though we had no idea by what a wide margin it would ultimately turn out to be. But everyone expected the entire CORE plan to take an unspecified number of years to fulfill - which was the point I addressed. Anyone that thought otherwise really wasn't paying attention.


The part about this is that rubs me the wrong way is that as late as the last big show, Rob was full speed ahead selling the Hardcore membership along with Lightwave 10 and CORE knowing that they were going to push out the door whatever they had by December 2010 no matter how incomplete it was, and they did.That would be bad, if it were true as described. The fact is, however, that the final decision to change to this new process took place only relatively recently, some time after a re-evaluation this spring which took months, as those who were following along well know - since they were waiting during that well-known and agonizingly long planning period (and then some) for an update.


The funny part is that some of the folks that came closer to the truth about the hardcore program over the last 2.5 year have been banned from this forums.No one gets banned here for having a contrary view - right or wrong, popular or unpopular. They do get banned (after repeated warnings) for numerous breaches of moderation policy, typically to do with being incessantly abusive and ignorant to other members.

3D Kiwi
06-25-2011, 04:53 PM
Seriously, and just for the record. If this is what you list as things developed by Autodesk for Softimage, then Iīm afraid Softimage is doomed.

1. If Iīm not wrong, the two first ICE features you mentioned were already on development when AD took control. So AD simply didnīt stop that (which by itself already surprises me)

2. "Improved ICE workflow for non tech guys."- not a new feature. Interface improvements. BTW, non tech guys will have to turn into tech guys anyway if they are to seriously consider using ICE, which is indeed a terrific set of tools.

3. "Lagoa". This is a 3rd party effort by Thiago Costa. Nothing to do with Autodesk apart from including it in the package.

4. "Opened all mental ray shaders". Ummm..ok, so it was already there, and now we allow you to see whatīs there and touch it. Enough said.

5. "IES lights". Ok. A new feature. Better late than never as Lw users know so well.

6. "Work flow improvements." ermm..a bit general...are you talking about the view cube, maybe? :D

7."Composite and Matchmover added (Can be taken as a good or bad thing)" you mean crappy compositor and half-a$$ed matchmover being bolted into every AD pacakge because nobody is buying them otherwise? I wouldnīt count that as "Softimage development", sorry.

I may come as I donīt like Softimage. Big mistake. I think it is a wonderful package. I just think being owned by AD is bad for it, not good.

Its pretty clear you know more about that than i do so i admit Softimage is Doomed. I guess Ill get into Lightwave Core... opps hang on....

The point I was making is that public perception of Softimage is good. The feeling in the SI community is pretty healthy at the moment. Not only does Newtek have to improve there public perception but they have to get Lightwave to the point it matches the others for features, workflow etc. I still havent seen any mention of a render pass system, yet they wanted to include a compositor?? Why? there are plenty of compositors out there, dosnt make sence to me.

Cageman
06-25-2011, 05:12 PM
yet they wanted to include a compositor?? Why? there are plenty of compositors out there, dosnt make sence to me.

Lets just say that there have been a lot of stuff going on behind the curtain regarding the CORE project that most likely will never be revealed. There is, however, an explanation behind the compositing tab in CORE....

Just saying...

:)

-EsHrA-
06-25-2011, 05:18 PM
"..and has turned out to be an evolutionary dead end.."

how? or why?..

Philbert
06-25-2011, 05:19 PM
That's kind of the problem, isn't it. For that to happen, you either have to finish CORE (which could take quite a bit of time and has turned out to be an evolutionary dead end), or extend the current dev cycle indefinitely ... because moving everything CORE already had (but in a seriously incomplete context) into LW isn't going to be a small task.

Some things can migrate more quickly, others will inevitably involve more deliberate (breakage) and massaging - taking longer. For better or worse, the decision seems to have been that the best course is to finish up 10, and get going on 11. I personally doubt that even a finished LW11 will embody 'everything that the last beta release of Core had'. I'd love to be wrong.

I don't know if it's a problem, I just know that's what I paid for. If not in one form than it should be in another at least. I can understand if that doesn't include merging the two apps, that will obviously take longer.

jasonwestmas
06-25-2011, 05:29 PM
I can understand if that doesn't include merging the two apps, that will obviously take longer.

That's just it, we aren't going to see much of anything that core was supposed to have (animation or modeling wise) until NT replaces the very heart of how Layout will deal with geometry at a deep architectural level.

ncr100
06-25-2011, 06:10 PM
...For better or worse, the decision seems to have been that the best course is to finish up 10, and get going on 11. I personally doubt that even a finished LW11 will embody 'everything that the last beta release of Core had'....

I believe it would be unfair for NT to gain financially for providing something other than was advertised.

Also I believe it would be fair for NT to deliver a product containing a reasonable facsimile of the features in the CORE app, in a form like any other LightWave release such as being eligible for technical support.

Dexter2999
06-25-2011, 06:48 PM
I personally doubt that even a finished LW11 will embody 'everything that the last beta release of Core had'. I'd love to be wrong.


I agree. It would be nice however to get instancing and Python for a 10.5 release. I think between those two things and VPR that would be a hefty share of what was promised for CORE.

Save the history stack for 11. Same thing for BULLET. Would also be nice to get a Linux version with 11 as well.

dwburman
06-25-2011, 07:10 PM
I hope we get the new UV tools that were forecast to be in the LW10 cycle.

From here on out, I think there will be less of an emphasis on long-term pre-orders, like the Hard Core program. I say this because of the things Rob said in the cgchannel article and in the HC forums about not talking about features prematurely. This will annoy a lot of people who want to know why they should stick around, but ultimately, it'll make for healthier public relations because there will be fewer "You promised us X feature and didn't deliver it." rants.

We'll have to wait and see if they can stick to that plan. I too, wish Newtek the best.

Netvudu
06-25-2011, 08:53 PM
I agree. It would be nice however to get instancing and Python for a 10.5 release. I think between those two things and VPR that would be a hefty share of what was promised for CORE.

Save the history stack for 11. Same thing for BULLET. Would also be nice to get a Linux version with 11 as well.

My own needs donīt fit with your needs, but to everyone its own. I suspect a useable Python inside Lightwave is waaaaay farther than bullet. Just check the current state of Lscript. It still canīt access some of LWīs parameters, do you think it looks like an all-access Python sounds closer in that state of things?

Dexter2999
06-25-2011, 09:01 PM
I think Python scripting is perhaps more important than Bullet. There are work arounds for Bullet (as in Blender.) Not so much for scripting I think.

Plus, if you are building a demo for a booth display for a new version of LW, Bullet is a flashier demo than scripting.

JBT27
06-26-2011, 06:25 AM
I hope we get the new UV tools that were forecast to be in the LW10 cycle.

<snip>

With LWCAD 4.0 down the line, and UV tools in that, one can only wonder what Viktor has developed that will kick the native tools into the proverbial cocked hat again ... I hope so ... even if they just work for LWCAD tools.

Julian.

SBowie
06-26-2011, 06:29 AM
I believe it would be unfair for NT to gain financially for providing something other than was advertised.

Also I believe it would be fair for NT to deliver a product containing a reasonable facsimile of the features in the CORE app, in a form like any other LightWave release such as being eligible for technical support.I don't really disagree with either of these points. However, the latter is, on the face of it, impossible in any reasonable timeframe. As I wrote somewhere yesterday, finishing up CORE to a 1.0 release-able stage would take too long, and would seriously impede moving forward on the direction decided upon. Yet adding all of the (as yet far from finished) functionality we've seen glimmers of to LW will take considerable time and effort too.

Since your second point isn't do-able, let's consider the first. It must be apparent that to date, NewTek hasn't really 'gained' overall from the HC initiative. The ledger must certainly be firmly in the red for some time to come, and all the more so given present circumstance. Now, we could contend that it is at somewhat less deeply in the red thanks to HC/LW10 sales, and that would be true. Even so, it basically comes down to this. Individually, we will either feel that despite the shortcomings, we find adequate value in what has been delivered for our (generally) $395/495 - even though it falls short of expectations - or we won't. Those that don't have options that have been discussed with them. Again, as considered elsewhere, this does not provide an ideal solution, but it's not grossly unfair under the circumstances either.

SBowie
06-26-2011, 06:32 AM
From here on out, I think there will be less of an emphasis on long-term pre-orders, like the Hard Core program.Less emphasis??? How about capital punishment (or at least LWOP) for even suggesting it.

UnCommonGrafx
06-26-2011, 07:18 AM
Not if the scripting is at an atomic level, able to do nodal things with the physics engine du jour.
This is where moving the Core SDK over to LW is so important. That is, the core of Core to LW is the move that has to happen.

As to that qq about LScripts lack of access to atomics, I don't believe the lack of lscripts previously allowed depth has to preclude the same lack of depth for Python. For whatever reason, I think that was more of an internal decision than it was a structural one. I believe this line of reasoning is/gone by the wayside for the future of scripting. Depth is necessary from here on out.

Elmar Moelzer
06-26-2011, 08:19 AM
I think Python scripting is perhaps more important than Bullet. There are work arounds for Bullet (as in Blender.) Not so much for scripting I think.
NT should use a C++ wrapper for the C- SDK (which is a good idea anyway), then they can use that to get Python in as well (Mike Wolfs idea, not mine, but I think it would work).

dwburman
06-26-2011, 10:29 AM
Less emphasis??? How about capital punishment (or at least LWOP) for even suggesting it.

Well, there were pre-order deals as long as I've been with LW. I bought LW5.6 after 6.5 was announced and had to wait for it. I have Vue and DFX+ due to other pre-order deals, so the pre-order (or complaining about delays and missing features) isn't new. HardCore was just the latest version.

You're probably right about no one suggesting another Hard Core type program.

ncr100
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
I'm glad you agree with me. I understand your perspective. Thanks for moderating here, and discussing this.

I agree, almost:


... the latter is, on the face of it, impossible in any reasonable timeframe.

Yes, though I don't care so much about time frame. I guess other people are raising this. I'm merely interested in features. I believe NT feels the same, judging from your reply!


...Since your second point isn't do-able, let's consider the first.
...
...The ledger must certainly be firmly in the red for some time to come, and all the more so given present circumstance.

NT's ledger is irrelevant.



...Individually, we will either [feel ok or not about the deal]...Again, as considered elsewhere, this does not provide an ideal solution, but it's not grossly unfair under the circumstances either.

No - feelings are immaterial: http://www.intpforum.com/images/smilies/smiley_emoticons_borg.gif (relevant video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8) At least when compared to the original upgrade deal.

Do you think NT considered proactive issuance of refund? However breaking the upgrade scheme is not desirable. Perhaps it would be fairest to provide one follow up feature-ful release as a 'bonus'? I'd like that.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Lightwolf
06-26-2011, 05:18 PM
Is this comment simple from observation? Nothing wrong with that, just looking to know.

No, it's not.

Cheers,
Mike

dblincoe
06-26-2011, 05:37 PM
Not sure I understand what the frustration is with Newtek's decision. The way I see it is we will get a product that is cross between LW's stability and history with the improvements and new developments of Core. So the product won't be called "Core". Most likely "LW11", but still a new product with new features. Look, they may not always be on target with deadlines, but for the most part Newtek has delivered a stable product. I think we forget that most of the belly aching comes from participating in a beta program. Beta programs always have bumps in the road, behind the scene. When I signed up for the Hardcore package it wasn't because I thought it would be a hassle free beta program. I also remember having the feeling that Core was being developed and could possible never come to fruition. The fact of the matter is I bought in to get LW10 and eventually the technology that Core would develop. I bought in, because of LW's history and stability. It seems quite interesting that LW is really the reliable 3d package out there. No it's not the newest and doesn't have the bells and whistles. But I bet you regardless of what tools that they say the major projects are done with, LW was a tool partially used for it...why, because you can get things done quickly in it. Fact of the matter is I have completed a lot of work with LW10 since it's release and it has paid for itself 10+ times over, easily.

Philbert
06-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Not sure I understand what the frustration is with Newtek's decision. The way I see it is we will get a product that is cross between LW's stability and history with the improvements and new developments of Core.

I think the real question is whether or not that can be done.

dblincoe
06-26-2011, 05:46 PM
I think the real question is whether or not that can be done.

I see. I can understand that. I dropped Core pretty quickly when I saw that very little was working. I guess I'm hoping for great things, now that Core is not a major distraction.

SBowie
06-26-2011, 07:58 PM
NT's ledger is irrelevant.I wish that were true, but it isn't, inasmuch as it dictates what can be done and what can't in a given time frame (or at all).


Do you think NT considered proactive issuance of refund? I'm sorry, but I'm not really sure what you mean by 'proactive' in this context.


Perhaps it would be fairest to provide one follow up feature-ful release as a 'bonus'? I'd like that.So would I ... but we have been told it's not going to happen. The alternatives - free to all current HC members vs. paid - must certainly have been carefully weighed. I am forced to conclude that the 3D Division may now be on a 'pay as you go ' regime, or something of that nature (I'm aware that can be taken more than one way, and it may be correct to think both ways are correct, really just speculating).

SBowie
06-26-2011, 08:02 PM
The fact of the matter is I bought in to get LW10 and eventually the technology that Core would develop. I bought in, because of LW's history and stability.I think this makes an interesting point, was thinking about this earlier. A lot of the early HC members joined specifically because of the CORE 'vision'. The ranks of the HC community, however, was swelled last year by those who bought or upgraded to LW10. It's my impression that many of this latter group were mainly buying LW10, with CORE as a bit of a bonus ... and for some maybe not even that, maybe just a bit of a sideshow with some possible future potential.

This dichotomy might account for some of the disparate levels of emotion on the changes and what they represent.

Hominid 3D
06-26-2011, 08:53 PM
One good thing is that the product name "lightwave" will be continued. I always thought LW had the best and most descriptive name of all 3d programs. Well, 3d Studio is good also, but Lightwave is just beautiful and elegant.

jasonwestmas
06-26-2011, 09:02 PM
One good thing is that the product name "lightwave" will be continued. I always thought LW had the best and most descriptive name of all 3d programs. Well, 3d Studio is good also, but Lightwave is just beautiful and elegant.

Beauty would appear to have a lot of emotional baggage.

Titus
06-26-2011, 09:04 PM
Well, 3d Studio is good also, but Lightwave is just beautiful and elegant.

Beautiful and elegant, but the name also carries a stigma, a negative one.

ncr100
06-26-2011, 09:37 PM
Not sure I understand what the frustration is with Newtek's decision.

Agreed. The frustrations seem to be, in general:


time
potential for more upgrade money being required to get the originally advertised feature-set, hazy as it was (ie purchase of LW v11, v12, v13, v14, and v15 being required to acquire the advertised feature-set)
lingering unmet desire for changes which people had expected to come in CORE
a non-issue: misunderstanding that NT's feature plans have changed ... when they haven't

ncr100
06-27-2011, 01:54 AM
Steve - I believe NT will do the right thing. I look forward to seeing which ships next: v10.2,3,4 or v11.



I'm sorry, but I'm not really sure what you mean by 'proactive' in this context.


I've been obtuse, I apologize. A refund provided without our asking.


... I am forced to conclude that the 3D Division may now be on a 'pay as you go ' regime, or something of that nature (I'm aware that can be taken more than one way, and it may be correct to think both ways are correct, really just speculating).

Yes, I see where you're coming from. I still believe NT will do the right thing.

I'm excited to see what 10.2+ brings us. I sympathize with NT 3d programmers: I expect they're feeling driven to revitalize dormant CORE code in the LW app. I guess v10.2 will come (bullet), maybe 10.3, and no 10.4, instead v11 with the majority of the CORE architecture.

Lewis
06-27-2011, 02:11 AM
I'm excited to see what 10.2+ brings us. I sympathize with NT 3d programmers: I expect they're feeling driven to revitalize dormant CORE code in the LW app. I guess v10.2 will come (bullet), maybe 10.3, and no 10.4, instead v11 with the majority of the CORE architecture.

Good luck with expecting all those updates of 10.x :D.

I see lot of people expecting similar freebies here on forums, i think those who expect that will experience some nasty disappointment in future. Maybe (just maybe) some will then realize why CORE 1.0 feature set presented on reveal/PDF was important to be released as it is. As it looks now NT will try to squeeze as much as they can of those in next several point upgrades = paying many more times for somethign what's been promised much earlier for CORE 1.0.

I can't blame them now when they got to more realistic delivery dates/features/plans what they maybe can do (still thing to see before believe) but still how this looks better (than CORE 1.0) from users POV (many more $$$$ to pay) i fail to realize, really :).

Lightwolf
06-27-2011, 02:16 AM
Maybe (just maybe) some will then realize why CORE 1.0 feature set presented on reveal/PDF was important to be released as it is.
I just hope that they also read the PDF properly:

Full Disclosure: this is a forward-looking document. It accurately represents the intentions of NewTek in the
development of LightWave 3DŪ with CORE technology. (LightWave with CORE technology is a working title and not
the final brand.) The software development process can be difficult to predict with certainty until delivery of final
product. CORE consists of several technologies from external sources which are always under development or review;
these technologies may or may not shape the final LightWave 3D with CORE technology feature list. This document
and its contents are subject to change without notice.

Just saying... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lewis
06-27-2011, 02:19 AM
Just saying... ;)


Yeah but "its contents are subject to change without notice" become as "NO content at all" - that's the pretty interesting/twisted way of reading/interpreting it :D?

kevman3d
06-27-2011, 02:20 AM
Beautiful and elegant, but the name also carries a stigma, a negative one.

Max, Maya, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Matchmover... There's a definite trend at AD in acceptable letters used at the start of a product name. Perhaps a rename to "MightyWave, using MORE technology" might be in order? :D

Lightwolf
06-27-2011, 02:31 AM
... that's the pretty interesting/twisted way of reading/interpreting it :D?
I'd say it's the normal way to read it imho. Hope for the best, except the worst.
And what we have no isn't even close to the worst thing that could have happened.

Cheers,
Mike

Lewis
06-27-2011, 02:34 AM
I'd say it's the normal way to read it imho. Hope for the best, except the worst.
And what we have no isn't even close to the worst thing that could have happened.

Cheers,
Mike

IMHO that really depends on what user do in LW. I understand that layout people could feel OK (to a degree) but I'm pretty sure you can't find lot of modeler people feeling same way so for them it might be right next to worst thing anyway :D.

Lightwolf
06-27-2011, 02:37 AM
IMHO that really depends on what user do in LW. I understand that layout people could feel OK (to a degree) but I'm pretty sure you can't find lot of modeler people feeling same way so for them it might be right next to worst thing anyway :D.
Well, the worst thing for me would be NT going out of business, taking LW with them.
Second worst: NT stopping LW.
Third worst: LW development going back to the status they had (roughly) 3 years.

All of the absolutely hypothetical though. But I wrote the worst, and not just worse ;)

As you can see, there's a lot more than just "no Modeler love" :D

Cheers,
Mike

Lewis
06-27-2011, 02:42 AM
As you can see, there's a lot more than just "no Modeler love" :D


I agree there is worse scenarios if you look totally as pessimist (you forgot end of the world ;)) but "no Modeler love" is understatement, by now it's more like "we hate modeler" :) :D.

Red_Oddity
06-27-2011, 02:44 AM
Max, Maya, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Matchmover... There's a definite trend at AD in acceptable letters used at the start of a product name. Perhaps a rename to "MightyWave, using MORE technology" might be in order? :D

I know you're being sarcastic (smiley face and all), and i'm a fool for pointing this out, but ADSK pretty much has the entire alphabet in their line up, not just the M (for some reason the makes ADSK sound like the proverbial Fritz Lang 'M' of the DCC industry :), it also makes the poster very relevant to my silly point. )

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=8909451&siteID=123112
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0780018664.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

OnlineRender
06-27-2011, 02:44 AM
Happy 10k posts sbowie

Lightwolf
06-27-2011, 02:47 AM
I agree there is worse scenarios if you look totally as pessimist (you forgot end of the world ;))
Well, at least you know how to read forward looking statements now ;)

but "no Modeler love" is understatement, by now it's more like "we hate modeler" :) :D.
But even that's better than some forward looking statements...
Who's the pessimist now? :hey:

:chicken:

Cheers,
Mike

kevman3d
06-27-2011, 02:55 AM
I know you're being sarcastic (smiley face and all),

Actually, that's an assumption - and a wrong one - it was more clowning about then sarcasm... So much for using smileys to try and indicate that. :foreheads

ncr100
06-27-2011, 03:09 AM
-

SBowie
06-27-2011, 04:26 AM
... but still how this looks better (than CORE 1.0) from users POV (many more $$$$ to pay) i fail to realize, really :).I don't think anyone imagines it does, except perhaps, to the degree that it represents a more realistic assessment and plan.

SBowie
06-27-2011, 04:28 AM
... but "no Modeler love" is understatement, by now it's more like "we hate modeler".If NewTek hated modeler, why did they concentrate on modeler tools and put so much effort into them in CORE?

zarti
06-27-2011, 04:31 AM
Not sure I understand what the frustration is with Newtek's decision. The way I see it is we will get a product that is cross between LW's stability and history with the improvements and new developments of Core.
I think the real question is whether or not that can be done.

yes .

.. and that brings the ' time factor ' into the table .. which is followed by some $$$s here and there .

..
despite what i have read from 'tech-gurus' , i have so many doubts about that kind of fusion / implementation .


.

Netvudu
06-27-2011, 04:35 AM
I agree there is worse scenarios if you look totally as pessimist (you forgot end of the world ;)) but "no Modeler love" is understatement, by now it's more like "we hate modeler" :) :D.

I understand where Lewis is coming from, but sincerely, a 3d package with a main focus in modelling tools is always regarded as a "specialized non-all round" tool. Look at what happened to Modo. A lot of years in the making, and still nothing much more than a (great) modelling tool with a nice render for most of the sector.

I understand there are some improvements to be made on the modelling area, but so far they were minor compared to the major overhaul that needed (still needs) to be done in the animation/rendering part. Letīs not forget modelling is just one part of the equation, while Layout is more like most of it. Itīs not 50% Modeller, 50% Layout. :) Itīs never been. I would give a ratio of 20% to 80% for most works, or something along those lines, maybe even less modelling depending on the job. (if you donīt agree with these numbers, thatīs ok, but I suspect you are just looking at your daily tasks, not at what the industry does)

Yes, you canīt do stuff without modelling, but letīs face it...itīs a smaller part of the whole picture. Even less now that organic modelling is transferring most skills to specialized sculpting pacakges.

Many people who essentially work in modelling (or even, in car modelling :D) tend to forget this, but the truth is they arenīt more important at all than a texture artist or a lighting artist, so development efforts should be shared considering a real world pipeline, even a small one.

SBowie
06-27-2011, 04:41 AM
Itīs not 50% Modeller, 50% Layout. :) Itīs never been.On the other hand, I don't think that if you are a person primarily does modeling, you would view it as a very different percentage - especially having been given the understanding years ago that modeling was the initial main focus, plus having been working with the new modeling tools and contributing to their design for a lengthy period, your disappointment at seeing their arrival pushed back yet again would be quite frustrating.

zarti
06-27-2011, 04:42 AM
I just hope that they also read the PDF properly:


Full Disclosure: this is a forward-looking document.

... .

This document and its contents are subject to change without notice.

Just saying... ;)


cute .

JBT27
06-27-2011, 04:56 AM
Well, the worst thing for me would be NT going out of business, taking LW with them.
Second worst: NT stopping LW.
Third worst: LW development going back to the status they had (roughly) 3 years.

<snip>

Unfortunately, the 'can NT survive as a business' thing has been going through my mind ... I don't know how successful the video division is, nor if it would be willing to prop-up the LW division should it come to it, so I'm not sure if it's an issue of NT going out of business as a whole, but it might be we are seeing the beginning of the end-game for LW.

I badly hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised ...

My gut says there is still a lack of realism there - choosing not to say things is a good move - and the sheer cost and resources of getting a CORE-like LW on the market in reasonable time may simply be beyond the current team.

Being obliged to switch to something else, even over a matter of a year or so, would be financially very damaging to us, so NT's failure is far more pervasive than simply screwing up on people's favourite app and workhorse.

Julian.

OnlineRender
06-27-2011, 04:59 AM
i'm just impressed NT managed to divide the community not once but twice in 3 years ,so I am hoping this U-turn "call it what you want " will bring back some UNITY !

zarti
06-27-2011, 05:02 AM
...

Many people who essentially work in modelling ( ... ) tend to forget this, but the truth is they arenīt more important at all than a texture artist or a lighting artist, so development efforts should be shared considering a real world pipeline, even a small one.

( Lewis' admirable expertise in modelling have been very helpful inside HC and i want to say "Thanks!" to him publicly for its efforts and time spent there . )

--

now .. even if i do not see this story from Lewis' pov or personal interests , i strongly believe that the Modeling context is where everything else is build over .

it is where shaders get hanged , lights and cameras put their 'attention' .

imo , they should have continued with Core ; superficially as a modeling enviro , while under it all the tech advancing could have been developed .

slowly features could have emerged or 'unlocked' , for production and why not for testing purposes .

this kind of situation and transition wd have been uninterruptibly productive and efficient to both parts involved ; users and devs .




.. imo , as always .

Lewis
06-27-2011, 05:13 AM
Many people who essentially work in modelling (or even, in car modelling :D) tend to forget this, but the truth is they arenīt more important at all than a texture artist or a lighting artist, so development efforts should be shared considering a real world pipeline, even a small one.

And many people who assume all I do is CAR modeling would be even more WRONG. As a matter of fact i've done more Arch viz in last 4 years than car models in 12 years (and i've done more than 130 hi-detail cars).

Also i never said it should be Specialized in modeling but to completely make it lacking is problem too. Can you sincerely tell me when did you last time hear that modeling part of LW was overhauled/seriously updated ? How many years has been that modeling tools are last time updated. Please don't start me on this 'coz if is like you say then it should be Layout 11 and not LightWave 11 or whatever the next version is. And YES many times since LW 8.x it's been said by NT representatives "...modeling part is next..." so IMHO your argument isn't valid and nobody here can't say what's percentage of modeling vs animating in industry (yeah i also work in industry for long time as day job and not just freelancing but opposite to some pros here i do complete set form start to end - modeling, texturing, animating and rendering and manage render farm and renders for it too so i need all parts of app to be equally capable).

There is simple no more excuses to neglect modeling again if they plan to keep the "god value out of box" idea.. If they stick to your plan (update rendering/animating only) that would make them equally "specialized" only app too since modeler is not capable of coping with high plycounts anymore (not even midpoly by todays standards) for long time so it would just fall behind competition even more and be totally out of loop/production in couple more years.

BTW also modeling is not just modeling (err actually in current LW is and that's main problem in many LWaver heads). Modeling in unified app with parametric and animated functions whit live deformers/stack is also animation tool so your point is moot about percentages modeling vs animating part.

IMHO of course

Lewis
06-27-2011, 05:18 AM
I don't think anyone imagines it does, except perhaps, to the degree that it represents a more realistic assessment and plan.

Steve check around and you'll see that lot of users still think they'll get 10.2, 10.3 and even 10.5 with lot of features which they think it should be free updates ;). And i cant' blame them for feeling that way considering PDF for 1.0 ;). Agian NT should "manage expectations" more clear and sooner than later ;).


If NewTek hated modeler, why did they concentrate on modeler tools and put so much effort into them in CORE?

I didn't say they hate it really (i can't really know that for sure anyway) but i said it surely looks that way by now. As regarding CORE, what CORE Steve, there is no more Core ;).

colkai
06-27-2011, 05:26 AM
with lwcad 4.0 down the line, and uv tools in that, one can only wonder what viktor has developed that will kick the native tools into the proverbial cocked hat again ... I hope so ... Even if they just work for lwcad tools.

Julian.
amen!

colkai
06-27-2011, 05:30 AM
I guess v10.2 will come (bullet), maybe 10.3, and no 10.4, instead v11 with the majority of the CORE architecture.

I wouldn't put any money on that if I were you, unless they change their mind, the feeling one gets is LW10 is feature locked and all other updates are liable to be bugfixes.
If you want a new feature, you'll have to plump for LW11, if you want more features, I guess LW12 etc. Lesatways that how the information appears to be coming across from multiple sources. :hammer:

archiea
06-27-2011, 05:31 AM
I haven't been here for a while, not since 9.6 or so... but i've kept in touch with whats going on. Perhaps its because of the distance I've kept, but this seems almost unethical to me.
Since Like LW 7 or 8, Newtek has been making people pay up front for an app that doesn't come out for 6 months to a year.. and even them you have to way for at least a .X release to get something workable.. usually 1.5 years down the line. I got to Adobe or autodesk, pay for an app or upgrade, and get it then, period. I've dealt with buggy apps, but what newtek pulls is really stretching it.

This time, people paid to get into the "hardcore" group.. get some unfinished product with lots of promises.. only to have them pull the plug and kick the fan down the road by 3 year. I mean is Jay Roth sill around?

I think newtek should refund peeps their hardcore money. The 10.1 upgrade I get, but this hardcore promise is vaporware. Is newtek gonna ask people for money again for them to speculate where the softare will be in 3 years? they sell you on a premise that a high tech rewrite is happening,a nd that why it will by you... only to renege and state that the software will continue on the old architecture... but they keep your money. I just don't think thats write. I;m sure many got v10 because of the promise of hardcore.

Newtek, please be more responsible on this: I don't get your logic... may times I've said to charge for a x.5 release to ensure progress.. you don't.. yet you have have no problem asking for people to pre=pay for a product that either takes years to deliver or as is the case with core, gets axed.

colkai
06-27-2011, 05:32 AM
If NewTek hated modeler, why did they concentrate on modeler tools and put so much effort into them in CORE?

Umm, but Steve, they've dropped CORE as a product. :p
So now it's a question of, will any updates actually focus on modeller in the next 'X' releases rather than just predominantly Layout?
The answer of course being, one cannot answer that at present. ;)

SBowie
06-27-2011, 05:39 AM
Steve check around and you'll see that lot of users still think they'll get 10.2, 10.3 and even 10.5 with lot of features which they think it should be free updates.If you check my posts, as I expect you have, you'll see that I feel this is unlikely, and that there is no hint of that happening in any official information that has been released. As to whether or not it should otherwise, I guess my personal position is that that I wish it was so, could be so, but I see nothing to indicate it will be so.


Again NT should "manage expectations" more clear and sooner than later.I think we already see plain evidence of a firm intention to avoid anything that could turn out to be overstatement - with or without disclaimers. I think most of us agree with this, even if it should have happened sooner. It's paradoxical that in the midst of the current situation rife with unfulfilled expectations, in the face of the new policy (of keeping quiet until there's something to show), many still demand some sort of 'leakage'. (Who was it that said 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't?)

Lewis
06-27-2011, 05:48 AM
Newtek, please be more responsible on this: I don't get your logic... may times I've said to charge for a x.5 release to ensure progress.. you don't.. yet you have have no problem asking for people to pre=pay for a product that either takes years to deliver or as is the case with core, gets axed.

Luckily they are offering refund to anyone who wants it and that's decent from NT (kudos for that). Also i think that now when Rob is in charge they wont' pre-sell "vision" anymore (finally) but actual product ready for beta and that's another kudos to them if it turns out that way. I think they learned their lesson on hard way and this time they'll probably remember it even longer than disappointed users :D.

Only thing in question is how to "refund" users time (what is worth 2+ years of active participation in bugs reporting/feature requests making and other stuff.. for product what's not gonna be released after all?) what users spent on hc-forums "participating" to make CORE better product (not just "CORE Tech" but actual Core app). That is still foggy and vague but at least this time they know they have to deliver first and then ask for money. Problem is now that we are still at "wait" period and they probably work harder as before (some time is surely lost now too) and yet we cant' see it from outside.

SBowie
06-27-2011, 05:49 AM
Umm, but Steve, they've dropped CORE as a product.I know you're just being facetious, and it's true that CORE as a releasable standalone has been dropped, but the fact remains that the majority of the work seen in CORE until now was modeling related.

The dev team (and official statements) indicate that this body of work can and will be redeployed as an integrated part of LW. You're right that it remains to be seen how quickly and how well this proves out from a practical development standpoint.

SBowie
06-27-2011, 05:58 AM
Only thing in question is how to "refund" users time (what is worth 2+ years of active participation in bugs reporting/feature requests making and other stuff..?) Obviously this is impossible to do in any financial sense. For one thing, to be perfectly fair would require NewTek to evaluate the relative contributions of different individuals in the beta forum and assign them a value. Some - such as you, Lewis - have contributed a very great deal. Should NewTek establish some sort of reasonable wage for someone with your skills, estimate the hours you spent, and send you a cheque ?

Should everyone get that amount? Or would it be necessary to do the same calculation for every member? Some others, perhaps the great silent majority who are working away with LW10 have contributed nothing overtly to the process, beyond their price of purchase. These are 'even' already, if they choose to opt out (or if they don't). If we're going to be fair, I wonder if those who did little more than hinder the process all along (first when CORE standalone was under development, and having now switched to the opposite page when it's not) can be billed?

The best way, indeed probably the only way for NewTek to show practical appreciation for the real efforts of those who did contribute, is to make sure that their efforts are ultimately not wasted, but rather are embodied in subsequent editions of LW.

OnlineRender
06-27-2011, 06:03 AM
Luckily they are offering refund to anyone who wants it and that's decent form

####
That's basic 101 business model , if they had said no refunds ,would your opinion be the same ...
####
but at least this time they know they have to deliver first and then ask for money.

Again basic procedure ...you would imagine this would be a given.

Not bashing Lewis you can do stuff with lw that people can't even comprehend .....but making excuses for a product /company which has been dragged threw the mud and back is getting tiring....again my comments have no validity I didnt fork out the cash unlike some ....but same old same old ...complete shambles from start to finish ,oh you can argue making core gave nt.more code and better direction but the fact remains still a cockup ...only good thing that came out of this was rob and Matt



Lucky they got VPR in 10 otherwise it may been a whole new kettle of fish

Lewis
06-27-2011, 06:05 AM
These are 'even' already, if they choose to opt out (or if they don't). If we're going to be fair, I wonder if those who did little more than hinder the process all along (first when CORE standalone was under development, and having now switched to the opposite page when it's not) can be billed?
.

Yeah that would work for me , that would make it even and NT might get some extra cash when they balance all then since there was probably more of those who were "obstructing" than helping :D :D :D ;).




J/K Steve i know it's not your fault by any mean and you've been "throwed in" among hungry "Lions" to entertain them while waiting for food :). But it's not my fault either :).

Lewis
06-27-2011, 06:07 AM
only good thing that came out of this was rob and Matt

and Lino, don't forget Lino is working for NT now too. Finally NT have some die-hard LW users on board to "steer" Devs to do it "proper artistic" way and not just easier way to code ;).

SBowie
06-27-2011, 06:10 AM
and Lino, don't forget Lino is working for NT now too.It might be worth noting that Lino's expertise, as far as I know, shines especially in modeling, as well as rigging.

OnlineRender
06-27-2011, 06:18 AM
It might be worth noting that Lino's expertise, as far as I know, shines especially in modeling, as well as rigging.

That's lucky because both they aspect in lw need serouis attention.........

SBowie
06-27-2011, 06:19 AM
That's lucky because both they aspect in lw need serouis attention.........Perhaps his arrival wasn't just by chance, then. :hey:

Lightwolf
06-27-2011, 06:23 AM
Perhaps his arrival wasn't just by chance, then. :hey:
And I thought he's only there because he's horse died as he rode past the saloon next to the NT HQ... :D

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
06-27-2011, 06:33 AM
And I thought he's only there because he's horse died as he rode past the saloon next to the NT HQ... :D

Cheers,
Mike

It never died the ik/fk broke down (",)

DBMiller
06-27-2011, 06:37 AM
Why has this changed?... [/I]?

Exactly. Why do some people still think we should get "all that was offered for Core 1.0" in exchange for the change in plan? As much as I wanted Core I never thought it was going to be all that awesome at the start. It was going to take years for Core to approach the functionality of LW10 as it is now. That is almost like going backwards in some areas.
Stripped of the sales talk, Rob's statements don't really say a whole lot, and he admits that himself, but I sure don't think he will want us to feel cheated by all this. My speculation is that by the time of LW11 (and having to pay for the upgrade) we will have been given a chance to test all the features Rob hints at for the future.
I will miss Core, but I'll live with it.:thumbsup:

DBMiller
06-27-2011, 07:12 AM
Steve check around and you'll see that lot of users still think they'll get 10.2, 10.3 and even 10.5 with lot of features which they think it should be free updates ;). And i cant' blame them for feeling that way considering PDF for 1.0 ;). Agian NT should "manage expectations" more clear and sooner than later ;).
.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1154433&postcount=28

According to Chuck we won't have to pay for any amount of point updates until it reaches LW11. Then the next 5 paid updates are at the discount price.

Edit: The link is in the HC forum. Sorry.

Lewis
06-27-2011, 07:28 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1154433&postcount=28

According to Chuck we won't have to pay for any amount of point updates until it reaches LW11. Then the next 5 paid updates are at the discount price.

Edit: The link is in the HC forum. Sorry.

And can you tell from that part will there be any more point updates (beside 10.1 in works) till LW 11 ? i.e. what gives you idea there will be more 10.x updates after 10.1 :D? Maybe it'll be LW11 right after i.e. paid update ? Anything is possible from now on and nobody guarantees many free .x updates as before (9.x series was very generous of NT) and if you consider when did NT last time got money (at beginning of HC i.e. 2.5 years ago) it's understandable from business point that next one is paid upgrade - or?

mattc
06-27-2011, 07:57 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1154433&postcount=28

According to Chuck we won't have to pay for any amount of point updates until it reaches LW11. Then the next 5 paid updates are at the discount price.
.

You're assuming, of course, that there are going to be point upgrades between 10.1 and 11.

colkai
06-27-2011, 08:07 AM
I know you're just being facetious, and it's true that CORE as a releasable standalone has been dropped, but the fact remains that the majority of the work seen in CORE until now was modeling related.

The dev team (and official statements) indicate that this body of work can and will be redeployed as an integrated part of LW. You're right that it remains to be seen how quickly and how well this proves out from a practical development standpoint.


Actually, I'd go for technically correct rather than facetious, my comment was they had dropped CORe as a product. Now, yes, the *intent* is to eventually combine it all into Lightwave, but my point still stands, the question is, how long that will take.
Nothing facetious about it.
Question - does CORE as a product still exist? Answer - NO, emphatically.

Does CORE tech exist, sure it does. Will CORE tech find it's way fully into LW10 and will the features displayed in the basic CORE be in 10.1 / 10.2 et al?
Place your bets, my money is on NO - especially given as the line seems to clearly be no new features in the 10.x builds.
So, if no new features in LW10 - how CAN the likes of bullet physics end up in it? Unless I'm missing something very subtle in the communications coming from Newtek employees here that is.

EDIT: for clarity - I am stating the LW10.X updates here - NOT where Lightwave will end up in the future.

50one
06-27-2011, 08:21 AM
I started to understand more and more their(Newtek) decisions about swapping the parts of LW10 with Core tech, seems it's gonna be much faster than releasing fully functioning CORE, soooo all in all they've got my trust and I truly believe it could be done and I will be more happy to fork out additional few bucks to update my v.8.

Imagine that - having an 'old looking' LW with giga-polygon CORE under the hood(copied that term from XSI - casue I like it :)) it's almost like driving a VW beetle from '64 with Gallardo engine:jam:

SBowie
06-27-2011, 08:23 AM
Question - does CORE as a product still exist? Answer - NO, emphatically.Actually, it does - and will continue to do so for some indefinite period, but as an application for use only, not offered for sale in a release form. But let's not quibble over semantics.


Place your bets, my money is on NOAs is mine, as I have clearly said many times.

Lewis
06-27-2011, 08:53 AM
..... LW10 with Core tech, seems it's gonna be much faster than releasing fully functioning CORE.........
..........Imagine that - having an 'old looking' LW with giga-polygon CORE under the hood(copied that term from XSI - casue I like it :)) it's almost like driving a VW beetle from '64 with Gallardo engine:jam:

Hehehe and that's based on what Fact :D? What if that "gigaPOLY" ability existed in CORE app already ? Would it then also be faster to put it in Layout later (assuming all will go smooth and compatible there and in some distant future which we don't know when ) then releasing CORE :D?

Guess what, we will not know which way is/would be faster since they opted just for one way so we can't compare speed of implementation features anymore :).

50one
06-27-2011, 09:05 AM
Hehehe and that's based on what Fact :D? What if that "gigaPOLY" ability existed in CORE app already ? Would it then also be faster to put it in Layout later (assuming all will go smooth and compatible there and in some distant future which we don't know when ) then releasing CORE :D?

Guess what, we will not know which way is/would be faster since they opted just for one way so we can't compare speed of implementation features anymore :).

Facts?:D BTW. I haven't heard any facts from NT for the past three years(nicht, zil, nada just the hush hush from the guys at beta) since I was waiting till 1 am to see that god damn countdown timer coming to zero and than... nothing LOL. :D

We're all playing a game of assumptions and speaking loudly what are we wishing for.

I wish the Classic LW will be released soon(sooner than CORE was meant to be released) an it will be stable, will play nice with other apps out there, render engine gonna be updated, new shading networks introduced, History stack implemented. Modeler gonna get major overhaul, ..yeah just a 'few' wishes.

rcallicotte
06-27-2011, 09:07 AM
Would these 5 paid update discount be only for previous CORE owners or anyone who has 10.x?




http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1154433&postcount=28

According to Chuck we won't have to pay for any amount of point updates until it reaches LW11. Then the next 5 paid updates are at the discount price.

Edit: The link is in the HC forum. Sorry.

Lewis
06-27-2011, 09:09 AM
Facts?:D BTW. I haven't heard any facts from NT for the past three years(nicht, zil, nada just the hush hush from the guys at beta) since I was waiting till 1 am to see that god damn countdown timer coming to zero and than... nothing LOL. :D
.

So you didn't go for hardCORE program then? That would explain your so-so information's then. I'll say no more than "..oh boy if you only know" ;).

50one
06-27-2011, 09:14 AM
So you didn't go for hardCORE program then? That would explain your so-so information's then. I'll say no more than "..oh boy if you only know"

I hate you.....:)

Nah, I'm still on v.8, as I said earlier on I will be happy to fork out few bucks more to get the 10 or 11 with the cool stuff in it.

colkai
06-27-2011, 09:51 AM
Actually, it does - and will continue to do so for some indefinite period, but as an application for use only, not offered for sale in a release form. But let's not quibble over semantics.
Yep, I suppose technically speaking, it is available to a limited user base.


As is mine, as I have clearly said many times.

Hey, see, we agree on some things! :thumbsup:

colkai
06-27-2011, 09:54 AM
I hate you.....:)

Nah, I'm still on v.8, as I said earlier on I will be happy to fork out few bucks more to get the 10 or 11 with the cool stuff in it.

To be honest, the V8 to 9.6 is STILL worth the money, especially as it puts you into the LWCAD compatible group, which is worth it's weight in gold. :)

I may not be a fan of LW10, but I do not for a second regret my LW8 -> 9 upgrade. :D

SBowie
06-27-2011, 10:00 AM
Hey, see, we agree on some things! :thumbsup:We always did. :)

Netvudu
06-27-2011, 12:24 PM
And many people who assume all I do is CAR modeling would be even more WRONG.....

Send my regards to that people. I never assumed ALL you did were cars. I do assume you have made an insane amount of car modelling along your career. Am I wrong?
I did think your business was also based on automotive renders. Didnīt know you were into arch-viz although it ainīt specially surprising considering the terrific skills for modelling and shading/lighting you show...in all your car renders :D

As for the rest of your (polite) rant, I mostly agree, though you obviously show a fervour in your modelling requirements that I donīt share.

Not being myself a modeller, but having shared a fair amount of hours at modelling (I think everybody starts there for obvious reasons) I do miss a few thing but I admit most of those tweaks rank fairly low in my own priority list. Probably because I find that the combination Modeller+LWCAD tools fills almost completely all my modelling needs (minus sculpting, of course).

I learned to model in Modo for a project, and went back to Modeller for the next one, because with all the glamour and awesomeness that Modo tools showed...it was dragging me. I worked slower and not just because of lack of expertise (which of course was a factor), but also because the workflow felt different.

I concur that parametric animation right now is indeed quite problematic, as is modelling for camera projections, but unfortunately I feel the union of both parts of LW is still pretty far from us.

I imagine you have had a lot of input in the HC forums trying to add good stuff to Core, and Iīm sure we will take advantage of that useful feedback in the new versions of LW. Personally, Iīm moderately happy about NT decision. I was a big defender of a unified environment, "Pythonizing" the whole thing, and nodal workflow (my "other" 3d package is Houdini, which is 100% nodes), but I tried a couple of CORE releases and ...well, they sucked big time. They didnīt feel like LW at all. It was too steep of a price to pay for LWīs evolution.
So, if they now tell me they can add similar features without revamping the whole interface Iīm all for it.

Phrog
06-27-2011, 12:32 PM
So you didn't go for hardCORE program then? That would explain your so-so information's then. I'll say no more than "..oh boy if you only know" ;).

this is one of the biggest problems I have. the lack of communication. I don't belong to the HC forums and I haven't upgraded to 10 yet (nothing too exciting for me in the upgrade) so for those of us on the "outside" who are too busy working to participate in a beta program there is no information for us. All I ever saw for the past 2.5 years is "pay your money, join HC and then we can talk otherwise what is discussed in HC stays in HC". Fine but as a customer (since version 5) I feel that I get very little useful information as to what exactly is going on. I don't generally have time to go through literally 1000's of forum posts and attempt to extract the conjecture from the real information - I expect Newtek to do that. the monthly newsletters have helped but the marketing hype seems to overpower the real information.


Well certainly no-one I know. People expected CORE 1.0 in a shorter period of time, though most I think felt (including me) the timetable was at least somewhat optimistic - though we had no idea by what a wide margin it would ultimately turn out to be. But everyone expected the entire CORE plan to take an unspecified number of years to fulfill - which was the point I addressed. Anyone that thought otherwise really wasn't paying attention.




I am one of those people you talk of. When the original CORE countdown happened it appeared as though the program was ready for public consumption (ie. I could buy the program soon) but then after a while it appeared as though not only was the program not even close to being ready it was more of a "concept" than anything else. I had waited a couple of years since first getting 9.0 for a new version with more bells and whistles so CORE appeared to be that package. I was paying attention and was under the impression that CORE would be ready right after the initial marketing campaign, then at the end of 2009, then at the first quarter of 2010, then at the end of 2010, then in the beginning of 2011 and now ... well that's what we are discussing isn't it. All I am saying is it is hard to "pay attention" when the message from Newtek was limited, open to interpretation, and kept stringing us along, and seemingly only available in huge 1000 long message threads on the forums or in forums that I don't have access to (HC forums).

Now, that said i am looking forward to the next version of LightWave. I love the program, have used it for years and am comfortable with it but would like to see it catch up a bit with some of the competition out there. I have no choice but to wait for the next incarnation but would like to see better communication from Newtek (not just marketing spin!). I also have questions regarding how much this is all going to cost now. Once again no one in the know has spoken up regarding what the new pricing structures will be like and what the pricing will be.

SBowie
06-27-2011, 12:42 PM
All I am saying is it is hard to "pay attention" when the message from Newtek was limited, open to interpretation, and kept stringing us along, and seemingly only available in huge 1000 long message threads on the forums or in forums that I don't have access to (HC forums).Point taken, and I agree that reverting to prior practice would be a lot better - not to suggest that couldn't have been improved, too, mind you.

Lewis
06-27-2011, 02:34 PM
I do assume you have made an insane amount of car modelling along your career. Am I wrong?
I did think your business was also based on automotive renders. Didnīt know you were into arch-viz although it ainīt specially surprising considering the terrific skills for modelling and shading/lighting you show...in all your car renders :D

That's because 80% of my other work is under NDA so i can't show it, some have indefinite NDA so even now after 5-6 years i still can't show it nor will I be able to do so. I even had few clients who wanted me to delete projects from my HDD after completion (luckily i convinced them that's not necessary so at least I have it for myself :)) so yeah you did see lot of my cars but nothing like "insane" amount, it's still farm from that but rising steady so i might reach "insane" on that meter one day :D. Cars are maybe around 30% of my Work while Arch-Viz is another 50% and rest is various from concept design, product viz, technical/manual animations, robots, various commercials, web design, TV station IDs, Video/audio editing (worked on TV station for 12 years),.... now when i skim through my HDD, it seems to me that I worked in "too many# different sections - like i don't know how to settle myself on certain field/place :D ;).

dwburman
06-27-2011, 06:27 PM
I don't know what it was like in the HC forums before last September, but since then the gulf between what the HC members know and what the non-HC members know isn't as great as you might think. :D

silviotoledo
06-27-2011, 07:10 PM
XSI and Maya are still great products and Autodesk is doing a great job.

Of course MAX is the product Autodesk want to promote, but...well, they try...

Newtek is also doing a great Job in Lightwave since Lightwave 9.X, but the software is no more on competition with the AD ones. Toooooooooooooo much for doing.

Maybe it's a 25 developers x 700 developers battle

So it's time to give force to the 3rd developpers. Don't you think?

I think the 1st Newtek must do is to OPEN MORE the software. If the Sculpt in Lightwave is not working, get a GO-MODO working with lightwave, get a GO-BLENDER, get V RAY ( Why never V ray? ). Get a GO-Z. Do Lightwave flexible and all the companies will back lightwave to their pipeline.

Photorreal rendering is necessary for film production, so please take a look at K Ray more!


I really like the way Rob is directing the Lightwave development and Matt's interface looks sooooooo greatttttt.


Hope I will have money to buy Lightwave 11 and I really hope it will have:

animation layers
mocap editing/retarget
keyframeble anim sculpt
reference file
muscles/skin/multilayer deformers
dynamics that works, specially softbodies and cloth ( Bullet, Newton, Physx, Physbam )

that's my small feature request list.

realgray
06-27-2011, 08:56 PM
"Of course MAX is the product Autodesk want to promote, but...well, they try..."

Everything I've heard is that Max has the biggest user base by far.(archviz/gaming/some film) It may not be used in the latest and greatest film productions but a lot of people are using it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Titus
06-27-2011, 09:00 PM
Everything I've heard is that Max has the biggest user base by far.(archviz/gaming/some film) It may not be used in the latest and greatest film productions but a lot of people are using it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not exactly. From the Rocarelli Report 2006 or 2007:

1. Blender
2. Flash
3. 3DS MAX
4. Truespace
5. Strata 3D
6. Lightwave
7. Cinema 4D
8. Hash Animation Master
9. Carrara
10. Maya
11. SketchUP
12. Softimage XSI
13. Electric Image (EIAS)
14. Realsoft 3D
15. Retas!Pro
16. Toon Boom Studio
17. Houdini
18. Animo

EDIT: But maybe Max is the most installed software counting both legal and illegal licenses.

realgray
06-27-2011, 09:02 PM
"Maybe it's a 25 developers x 700 developers battle"

I believe that has something to do with it. I would have no problem in paying more (even in subscription form) if it meant Newtek greatly expanding their developers. I really love "the Lightwave way" of doing things which is why I use Modo as well. Here's to hoping that Newtek gets back in the game and soon.

realgray
06-27-2011, 09:04 PM
Not exactly. From the Rocarelli Report 2006 or 2007:

1. Blender
2. Flash
3. 3DS MAX
4. Truespace
5. Strata 3D
6. Lightwave
7. Cinema 4D
8. Hash Animation Master
9. Carrara
10. Maya
11. SketchUP
12. Softimage XSI
13. Electric Image (EIAS)
14. Realsoft 3D
15. Retas!Pro
16. Toon Boom Studio
17. Houdini
18. Animo

Thanks, cool list.
And among professional 3d software 3d Max is number 1.

Lewis
06-28-2011, 12:28 AM
Not exactly. From the Rocarelli Report 2006 or 2007:

EDIT: But maybe Max is the most installed software counting both legal and illegal licenses.

Here is one more recent survey
http://www.cgenie.com/articles/1158-cgenies-big-cg-survey-is-now-open-have-your-say.html

Samus
06-28-2011, 12:59 AM
Comments from that survey regarding Lightwave :


-Lightwave - With the introduction of Core-i believe Newtek has managed to alienate their current lightwave user base. Development/bug fixes have slowed to a halt and forum activity has dropped off. As a lightwave professional of today, i find myself in a position where i need to either consider learning a new package or continue to wrestle with lightwave in its current state and hope that core will deliver what i need in a 3d application. (sadly ... no Core)

-Lightwave 3D - Hope to see Core kick off soon and rival that of higher-end companies with a much better price point. (Sigh...)

-Lightwave - Make Core easy approachable (as in intuitive, not as in feature limited). That's the key. And start doing marketing! At no point in time since LW 5.5 (when I started with it) I have seen you guys caring for other countries than the U.S.

-On the more negative side, Cinema 4D, Lightwave 3D and Softimage have all suffered this year - all for differing reasons, we'll look to investigate these results further explore if these are temporary instabilities caused by programmes like the CORE upgrade or whether they are symptomatic of deeper rooted issues starting to surface.



....Sadly users new and argued about feature and what LW lacked long before it started running out of breath in this industry....Newtek Must listen...and give feedback!!

Cohen
06-28-2011, 03:42 AM
Here is one more recent survey
http://www.cgenie.com/articles/1158-cgenies-big-cg-survey-is-now-open-have-your-say.html

Conclusions

"On the more negative side, Cinema 4D, Lightwave 3D and Softimage have all suffered this year ...

... we'll be running a series of specific analyses to tackle the data from different angles. These will range from focusing on a particular topic to splitting the results to compare the views of professionals versus hobbists"

did CGenie just refer to me as a diminutive hobbit? :question:

taahheee ;D

Elmar Moelzer
06-28-2011, 06:03 AM
Yea, it is worth noting that CORE was still looking like it was alive and well when that survey was made. LW-users were just not too happy with the idea. The other thing worth noting is that there is not real marketshare in this survey.

SBowie
06-28-2011, 06:08 AM
Yea, it is worth noting that CORE was still looking like it was alive and well when that survey was made. LW-users were just not too happy with the idea. The other thing worth noting is that there is not real marketshare in this survey.Yes, clearly, we managed to annoy those who loved LW more or less as it was with CORE, then when that process was pretty much "Mission Accomplished", we spent the next year doing the same thing to those who thought CORE was the bees knees. In retrospect, i requires no particular talent to see that this was all .... 'sub-optimal'. Noses back to the grindstone... :hammer:

Lewis
06-28-2011, 06:10 AM
Yea, it is worth noting that CORE was still looking like it was alive and well when that survey was made. LW-users were just not too happy with the idea.

You mean PART of LW users ?

Or this quote looks like not happy with CORE idea also ?

"-Lightwave 3D - Hope to see Core kick off soon and rival that of higher-end companies with a much better price point. (Sigh...)"

BTW and why do you think that users survey would now be more happy when most of things LW is even more uncertain i.e. we have no idea when LW will become unified or what CORE features will get in first or anything else about nodal structure etc. etc..?

cagey5
06-28-2011, 06:12 AM
Yes, clearly, we managed to annoy those who loved LW more or less as it was with CORE, then when that process was pretty much "Mission Accomplished", we spent the next year doing the same thing to those who thought CORE was the bees knees. In retrospect, i requires no particular talent to see that this was all .... 'sub-optimal'. Noses back to the grindstone... :hammer:

:) That's about the best summery I've read right there.
As you say eyes forward, exciting times ahead..

Bill1955
06-28-2011, 06:47 AM
I don't know what it was like in the HC forums before last September, but since then the gulf between what the HC members know and what the non-HC members know isn't as great as you might think. :D

I am speculating that since the last 2.5 years have been mostly assumptions and speculations by everyone including Newtek, the gulf between what the HC members know and what the non-HC members know is practically the same.

OnlineRender
06-28-2011, 07:50 AM
We stand tall and proud with dongle in one hand and wearing an over sized core t-shirt ,behind lightwave we stand as a unity a blend of old and new hoping one day we will reach MAx potential ...... not bad 4 apps in 1 sentence edit ohh more ....

Some say way are SOft ,fourth dimensional even , but yet we brush them to the side with our tools and wonky bevel

colkai
06-28-2011, 08:29 AM
Umm, a pint of what your drinkin' dude! :p

OnlineRender
06-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Umm, a pint of what your drinkin' dude! :p

it's called money-try stress !

GandB
06-28-2011, 11:34 AM
I'll take two then. ;)

colkai
06-28-2011, 11:54 AM
it's called money-try stress !

Oh, right, got me plenty of that right here. :p

Bill Carey
06-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes, clearly, we managed to annoy those who loved LW more or less as it was with CORE, then when that process was pretty much "Mission Accomplished", we spent the next year doing the same thing to those who thought CORE was the bees knees. In retrospect, i requires no particular talent to see that this was all .... 'sub-optimal'. Noses back to the grindstone... :hammer:

lol, almost snorted coffee while laughing.....

robpowers3d
06-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Well, sensibly, Rob hasn't said anything of any real import there ... I saw the word 'probable' used for the unification of Modeler and Layout, but I'll only now believe it when I see it, and if it works. And that goes for anything else.

I've definitely settled into a new mindset for NT and LW after the past days, and that's good ... but unfortunately that mindset is rooted in zero trust and street cred for NT right now. What I have in front of me works OK for what I need. Anything else, well, again, I'll believe it when I see it.

What I do appreciate these past days also though, is people's comments about the competition. I might easily, had I the funds, jump to Max (most likely), though on reading some comments I'm not so sure ...

The truth is, if NT fail to deliver on the next big one, I'll be out, so will many others, and I suspect NT will be well on the downward slope anyway with no chance of clawing it back.

Julian.

Julian,
That's always the best way to judge, by actual deliverables. Many things can be said but in the end it's the evolution of the tools and the functionality of the software and how it improves our workflows that really matters. I'm with you on that.

robpowers3d
06-28-2011, 12:18 PM
Fact of the matter is I have completed a lot of work with LW10 since it's release and it has paid for itself 10+ times over, easily.

It's great to hear that! Thanks for sharing!

robpowers3d
06-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Good luck with expecting all those updates of 10.x :D.

I see lot of people expecting similar freebies here on forums, i think those who expect that will experience some nasty disappointment in future. Maybe (just maybe) some will then realize why CORE 1.0 feature set presented on reveal/PDF was important to be released as it is. As it looks now NT will try to squeeze as much as they can of those in next several point upgrades = paying many more times for somethign what's been promised much earlier for CORE 1.0.

I can't blame them now when they got to more realistic delivery dates/features/plans what they maybe can do (still thing to see before believe) but still how this looks better (than CORE 1.0) from users POV (many more $$$$ to pay) i fail to realize, really :).

Hi Lewis,
It's not really exactly like that but we are in the business of making software and selling it. That is how we stay in business. It's no secret now that the past statements on CORE and the timeframes for what was mentioned in that PDF were not realistic. And this would appear to be in line with the progress of other software products as well when you look around.

Complex software projects take a certain amount of time to develop. I think we are on a strong path to providing great new tools for our users and we are certainly aware of the long standing neglect of the modeling toolset and are working on ways to address this weakness as we move forward.

Samus
06-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Good to know Rob Powers is on this thread Feels like our concerns about Lightwave are heard. We're in the hopes for the next Release.

robpowers3d
06-28-2011, 12:24 PM
I just hope that they also read the PDF properly:


Just saying... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

:) Thank you Mike.

JeffrySG
06-28-2011, 12:28 PM
...only good thing that came out of this was rob and Matt



and Lino, don't forget Lino is working for NT now too. Finally NT have some die-hard LW users on board to "steer" Devs to do it "proper artistic" way and not just easier way to code ;).

Don't forget about James too.

BigHache
06-28-2011, 12:34 PM
I think we are on a strong path to providing great new tools for our users and we are certainly aware of the long standing neglect of the modeling toolset and are working on ways to address this weakness as we move forward.

Cool. I'm looking forward to what comes out. :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
06-28-2011, 12:52 PM
Good to know Rob Powers is on this thread Feels like our concerns about Lightwave are heard. We're in the hopes for the next Release.

excuse the pun , but Rob just got a forum Avatar since he became VP :)

and on that subject the same image as on the installer , which btw I know being VP and all that , but 2 images :)

Lewis
06-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Hi Lewis,
It's not really exactly like that but we are in the business of making software and selling it. That is how we stay in business.

Of course and that's exact reason why i said that those who expect 10.2, 10.3. 10.5... before LW11 will be disappointed since from what I read on forums some think (quite few actually) that LW11 will do all what was CORE supposed to do by v 1.0 and that they will get those features slowly implemented over 10.2, 10.3, 10.5... before LW11 which will be final touch :). I know that's unrealistic now for this direction/plan and I'm prepared for that but if NT don't say it clearly some users will get upset why they don't get their .x upgrades as previous years :). LW rarely (was it ever actually?) ended point upgrades so earl as X.1. Sometime it was even X.6, X.7 so it's hard going to be hard to explain them later why is that not anymore (don't get me wrong i agree that next upgrade should probably be payed one now with this new system after CORE's "death").

I also said that NT was very generous in past, especially with 9.x upgrades and that probably "spoiled" users and now they expect same/more which is gonna be problem for them when they realize it won't happen. But then again that's like in any work/client relationship : if you charge client "low amount" for first job you hardly can squeeze much more for 2nd, 3rd and so on if you are doing pretty much same/similar thing since you once showed him you will work for lower already ;) :D.

Matt
06-28-2011, 01:12 PM
I also said that NT was very generous in past, especially with 9.x upgrades and that probably "spoiled" users and now they expect same/more

Exactly right. And that business model does not help NewTek or users long term.

Lewis
06-28-2011, 01:22 PM
Exactly right. And that business model does not help NewTek or users long term.

Absolutely, it don't help NT to be competitive at all , on the other side we could "debate" is it helping users since they have more $$$ in their pockets ;).

BUT LW is now more expensive anyway (1495 stays regardless of CORE - right?) so if NT delivers properly this time it'll be better for them also since that's still reasonably cheap price (heck i'd pay even more if i would stop hearing money argument from some users or even NT when we bring up point what competition has and LW don't but if we could stop getting "patching" and sometime sloppy/unfinished and stay that way year and years forgotten in updates and bug fixes ;)). But that's just me.

OnlineRender
06-28-2011, 01:24 PM
imagine if they coded [F9] to search and destroy forum users , would be an interesting time ;) please be in 10.1

akademus
06-28-2011, 01:30 PM
I'm so glad to see LW in another cycle as I always seen LW greatly improving during x.0 to x.5 period. I've been following these cycles since version five and they always been exciting period. I know 9 was the massive slowdown as it took some 4 years, correct me if I'm wrong.

There is one thing I mentioned quite a few time before but since we seem to be discussing LW roadmap this is what strikes me as odd for quite a time now.

In the company where I work now I'm often referred as a person who knows great deal about third party plugins and every now and then someone would approach me and ask about certain feature that doesn't seem to be included in LW. Then I would point them to a certain plugin which usually resides in our repository, briefly explained them and before you know they have it up and running and their (and mine) life becomes a little easier from that point on. For example, I had couple of shading and lighting people who didn't have a clue about UV mapping as it always remained a big scary thing in LW. I showed how to click twice in PLG UV (which was in our repository for years but nobody used it) to get their stuff unwrapped and we all lived happily ever after.

My rough estimate (based on LWplugins database) is that there is around 1000 of plugins floating around. At least 60% is made by people who wrote something because it wasn't there at the moment and they needed certain functionality and they published it so other people don't have to worry about it. There are literally thousands of holes filled by these plugins.

However people can't be bothered to go chase them around the web, they don't see it, they blame LW for not having it. They'll blame LW for having poor UV tools, but they wont go and look for other, usually free, solutions.

My suggestion is to go and look through those plugins, contact their authors, negotiate the terms and start incorporating and improving those solutions into LW toolset.

Before you know, you can reach number 11, packed with hundreds of new features. There are heaps of functions which are slowly diving into past simply because nobody, including authors, doesn't care about them.

Somebody recently listed SI improvements which consisted of ICE, lagoa etc none of them developed inhouse. Same goes for others, i don't see much of it, with the exception of Pixologic and even they acquired Sculptris!

I just think its a great resource waiting to be developed and used for betterment of all of us and for the sake of lightwave.

Cheers

50one
06-28-2011, 01:46 PM
that is a really valid point Akademus I would say -that been in fact discussed many times before....and nothing happened and I guess nothing will happen in near future.
But it would be cool to see Dennis and Steve(Worley) working in-house they would probably release version 15 in next few months lol.:D

CoryC
06-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Somebody recently listed SI improvements which consisted of ICE, lagoa etc none of them developed inhouse.

This is incorrect. ICE was and is still being worked on by the same programmers internally since it is a core-rewrite of SI. Very much like what Newtek is planning, minus the drama.

MAUROCOR
06-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Very much like what Newtek is planning, minus the drama.

:lol::lol::lol:

jasonwestmas
06-28-2011, 03:26 PM
Of course and that's exact reason why i said that those who expect 10.2, 10.3. 10.5... before LW11 will be disappointed since from what I read on forums some think (quite few actually) that LW11 will do all what was CORE supposed to do by v 1.0 and that they will get those features slowly implemented over 10.2, 10.3, 10.5... before LW11 which will be final touch :). I know that's unrealistic now for this direction/plan and I'm prepared for that but if NT don't say it clearly some users will get upset why they don't get their .x upgrades as previous years :). LW rarely (was it ever actually?) ended point upgrades so earl as X.1. Sometime it was even X.6, X.7 so it's hard going to be hard to explain them later why is that not anymore (don't get me wrong i agree that next upgrade should probably be payed one now with this new system after CORE's "death").

I also said that NT was very generous in past, especially with 9.x upgrades and that probably "spoiled" users and now they expect same/more which is gonna be problem for them when they realize it won't happen. But then again that's like in any work/client relationship : if you charge client "low amount" for first job you hardly can squeeze much more for 2nd, 3rd and so on if you are doing pretty much same/similar thing since you once showed him you will work for lower already ;) :D.

As a spoiled user,I wouldn't expect a 10.5 to have more new features if it was free, maybe just more complete version of what is in LW already. NT has this reputation of adding more and more without making features as reliable and strong as people expect them to be.

cresshead
06-28-2011, 03:47 PM
looking around at the 'local' [similar priced eg. $0-$1000 ] competition they all have good stuff and huge holes of missing/not so well implemented tools capabilities...you have to pick your fights as they say!

some apps have more upto date modelling tools but do not offer particles, bone deformers etc....others offer a re write, modifiers etc but lack a coherent U.I and a not so hot renderer...others offer great character animation tools and a fair renderer too but do not have any modelling capability at all...some offer great modelling for architectural specific tasks but no renderer and a really basic animation system that little more than a slide show....yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out...also always look at the cost of continued ownership..some sting you with nasty subs per year too...

lightwave has plenty of things missing even at version 10 but it can do some great stuff too...depends on your needs.

i'd say have a look at what it can do NOW, not in the future...never hope that a basket will suddenly be full of perfect eggs...see what eggs are already in there.

and chickens...and roads...make sure your on the right side of the road...no need to cross to the other side if your on the right side already!

dblincoe
06-28-2011, 04:09 PM
looking around at the 'local' [similar priced eg. $0-$1000 ] competition they all have good stuff and huge holes of missing/not so well implemented tools capabilities...you have to pick your fights as they say!

some apps have more upto date modelling tools but do not offer particles, bone deformers etc....others offer a re write, modifiers etc but lack a coherent U.I and a not so hot renderer...others offer great character animation tools and a fair renderer too but do not have any modelling capability at all...some offer great modelling for architectural specific tasks but no renderer and a really basic animation system that little more than a slide show....yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out...also always look at the cost of continued ownership..some sting you with nasty subs per year too...



Agreed! They sure do. They may be flashy and have slick UI, but are they really productive? I've been using Lightwave since V6 and what I appreciate is it's non-distracting UI. As far as tools go. We'll that depends on the job. You can do almost anything right out of the box and adding a few free plugins. Purchase a few plugins and suddenly you have an extremely competitive package. It has allowed me to make a living for 10+years and it is the only package I use for modeling and animation. I have to admit, there are some holes that Newtek or 3rd party developers need to address feature wise. I also have to admit I have been looking at other sculpting packages & fluid sim/particle systems lately because I find these lacking right now. But when it comes down to it...there are ways of faking it in LW and most of the time it just is better to fake it artistically than go all out on a sim.

In short, in my experience I haven't found another package worth migrating too. They are either too expensive, too bloated or too watered down until you purchase all of the "add-ons".

Also, all of those big production companies may say that they use the $1500 fad package of the moment...but when it comes down to getting things done, a lot of them turn to LW as another tool in their arsenal to get their tasks finished.

zarti
06-28-2011, 04:31 PM
...

Also, all of those big production companies may say that they use the $1500 fad package of the moment...but when it comes down to getting things done, a lot of them turn to LW as another tool in their arsenal to get their tasks finished.

hi ,

all your post ( referring to your personal experience ) is a valid argument .

, but .. could you please give examples / illustrations of the ( remaining ) quoted part above ?

cresshead
06-28-2011, 04:59 PM
hi ,

all your post ( referring to your personal experience ) is a valid argument .

, but .. could you please give examples / illustrations of the ( remaining ) quoted part above ?

i'd take a punt at rendering..seems that a few shows that used other apps for the majority of stuff still chose to move it to lightwave to render it out.

cresshead
06-28-2011, 05:04 PM
What happened before 9.3 I know very little about. But when I think of the patience and stamina that the HC members have shown and with little to show for it, "spoiled" is the last word I would use.....

yeh i personally have a real hard time feeling 'spoiled' at the moment from the hardcore news we got last week...more like "soiled!" :devil:

still as yet there is no 100% solid evidence of exactly 'what' newtek will hand over to hardcore users..the writing on the wall seems to be 10.1 but we really do not know if that's all we'll get....and 10.1 means exactly what...could be a load of new stuff that make 10.1 for all we know.

dblincoe
06-28-2011, 05:41 PM
hi ,

all your post ( referring to your personal experience ) is a valid argument .

, but .. could you please give examples / illustrations of the ( remaining ) quoted part above ?

Well, in Avatar, even though they were using Maya, they still turned to Lightwave when they needed modeling.

Zoic uses Lightwave extensively in their pipeline, even though they also rely on Maya for part of their work.

My point is that it is a reliable tool to be used as one of many tools in your arsenal. Most production companies don't rely solely on package.

dblincoe
06-28-2011, 05:43 PM
i'd take a punt at rendering..seems that a few shows that used other apps for the majority of stuff still chose to move it to lightwave to render it out.

Heard that too, often. Lightwave has one of the best rendering engines. And you don't have to be a shader programmer to use it.

zarti
06-28-2011, 06:26 PM
...

My point is that it is a reliable tool to be used as one of many tools in your arsenal. Most production companies don't rely solely on package.

fine ! ..

now , if i virtually ' replace ' the quoted part above ( #196 ) with the quoted part here ,

then i wd agree with you 100% with the post ( #196 ) .



.cheers

Philbert
06-28-2011, 06:31 PM
I know there was one shot from Serenity that was done in Maya but it just wasn't working so they went back to LightWave. Captain Scarlet started in Maya but switched over to LightWave after the first couple of episodes. Just a couple more examples.

cresshead
06-28-2011, 06:34 PM
I know there was one shot from Serenity that was done in Maya but it just wasn't working so they went back to LightWave. Captain Scarlet started in Maya but switched over to LightWave after the first couple of episodes.

captain scarlet was animated in maya and rendered in lightwave, i don't believe they 'dumped maya wholsale'...they just used lightwave's lighting, shading and renderer in that production.

Philbert
06-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Yeah I think I remembered it wrong, they did the first few episodes with maya's renderer, then switched to LW for rendering. That's from Ron Thornton some years back.

Netvudu
06-28-2011, 07:21 PM
oohh, oooh, this game by cresshead is fun. Iīm gonna play it:




some apps have more upto date modelling tools but do not offer particles, bone deformers etc

I think this one is Modo.




....others offer a re write, modifiers etc but lack a coherent U.I and a not so hot renderer

aha! the rewrite thing gave me the hint. Must be Blender.



...others offer great character animation tools and a fair renderer too but do not have any modelling capability at all

This oneīs your favourite Messiah.




...some offer great modelling for architectural specific tasks but no renderer and a really basic animation system that little more than a slide show....

erm...darn, this oneīs tough. Could it be Sketch-up? I really donīt know much about it apart from beig oriented to arch-viz modelling.




yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out

whoa...Iīm lost here...strata doesnīt fit...dunno 3dCoat? (although I would say its modelling is way better than "okay" so I donīt think it fits either...)

realgray
06-28-2011, 08:06 PM
"yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out"

Cinema?

Titus
06-28-2011, 09:00 PM
"yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out"

Cinema?

Or Blender, again.

akademus
06-28-2011, 10:32 PM
This is incorrect. ICE was and is still being worked on by the same programmers internally since it is a core-rewrite of SI. Very much like what Newtek is planning, minus the drama.

My bad. All I remember is someone pointing these as someone else pointing they're not.

Still you have programs stating they have bullet physics as a feature but not really saying they merely implemented it into their own software. That was my point!

Cheers

ncr100
06-29-2011, 12:03 AM
:) Thank you Mike.

But the pdf came after I bought into the program; frankly I feel unsure what's going on here.

Lewis
06-29-2011, 12:57 AM
What happened before 9.3 I know very little about. But when I think of the patience and stamina that the HC members have displayed and with little to show for it, "spoiled" is the last word I would use.....

That's why i put quotes "", If you look some recent events and how NT explains that 10.1 is good enough value for members that raises question what they think about their users expecting more for same $$$ :).

So how will it be in future nobody really knows (except maybe NT :)?) but even Jay said long ago that users shouldn't expect so many free or even free .5 upgrades anymore.

motivalex
06-29-2011, 02:23 AM
The upgrade to LW10 was to include version one of Core. I held off upgrading until I saw what Core had to offer. Now that Core as it was will never be released; It is important for those who paid for Hardcore to get a reasonable 10.5 (or whatever after 10.1) version of LW, with more of the tech and benefits they were supposed to get in Core version 1 that they paid for and contributed to in the beta.

Those like myself who are sitting on the fence, may not upgrade to 10 unless 10.x is significant. Otherwise it will be a wait and see what LW11 offers.

Edit: I have a feeling I am going to be pleasantly surprised. :)

colkai
06-29-2011, 03:10 AM
Time will tell and results speak for themselves.
I have heard for a long longtime that Newtek are aware of the lack of attention to modeller and that it will be looked at in the future.
Well, the future is like "soon", an indeterminate variable.
Speaking for myself, "working on ways to address this weakness as we move forward" is definitely in the "subject to change and forward looking" arena.

Right up there with "we are reviewing our procedures in the light of recent events". :p

Realistically, I can't see any modeller overhaul prior to LW11, maybe even LW12 as, though the neglect is acknowleged, it isn't the focus of LW, nor has it been for a few releases.
So much waitings and lots of patience methinks.

mythek1
06-29-2011, 03:23 AM
Time will tell and results speak for themselves.
I have heard for a long longtime that Newtek are aware of the lack of attention to modeller and that it will be looked at in the future.
Well, the future is like "soon", an indeterminate variable.
Speaking for myself, "working on ways to address this weakness as we move forward" is definitely in the "subject to change and forward looking" arena.

Right up there with "we are reviewing our procedures in the light of recent events". :p

Realistically, I can't see any modeller overhaul prior to LW11, maybe even LW12 as, though the neglect is acknowleged, it isn't the focus of LW, nor has it been for a few releases.
So much waitings and lots of patience methinks.

Wouldn't Modeler require a radical rewrite to bring it up to modern standards?

I know Rob was saying that CORE technologies can be introduced in a way that allows for continued use of the program. But why do builders knock an old house down and rebuild rather than give the old one a facelift? Because sometimes a bit of old wiring, plumbing or dodgy foundations can come back and haunt you.

pooby
06-29-2011, 03:36 AM
Wouldn't Modeler require a radical rewrite to bring it up to modern standards?

I know Rob was saying that CORE technologies can be introduced in a way that allows for continued use of the program. But why do builders knock an old house down and rebuild rather than give the old one a facelift? Because sometimes a bit of old wiring, plumbing or dodgy foundations can come back and haunt you.

presumably there is nobody living in the house in the meantime

also they have the resources to do so.

If they had tenants, and not a lot of money, then they would probably just do a lick of paint.

mythek1
06-29-2011, 03:48 AM
presumably there is nobody living in the house in the meantime

also they have the resources to do so.

If they had tenants, and not a lot of money, then they would probably just do a lick of paint.
That's what the on-site caravan is for:)

EDIT

Actually, I guess the analogy as it equates to the CORE situation is: that Newtek were to keep the tenants on in the old house but build a new one next door, before moving everyone in and demolishing the old one.

So the only issue is the short term money situation. As with the analogy a rebuild would probably have been more efficient in terms of coding, stability etc but maybe not so lucrative.

But a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So will the current old architecture cause issues when they start lumping in the new bits?

inquisitive
06-29-2011, 06:13 AM
and among all this ... what ever happened to 9.61 final - is it ever going to be released?

Lightwolf
06-29-2011, 06:16 AM
and among all this ... what ever happened to 9.61 final - is it ever going to be released?
It has been, a few weeks ago. It's also available for all users of 9.x now, check http://register.newtek.com .

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
06-29-2011, 06:38 AM
That's what the on-site caravan is for:)

EDIT

Actually, I guess the analogy as it equates to the CORE situation is: that Newtek were to keep the tenants on in the old house but build a new one next door, before moving everyone in and demolishing the old one.

That perfectly fits the old approach. Now, both builders and residents are occupying the same space. That also makes it harder to switch off critical parts during rework because someone's going to want to make a cup of tea and will require water and either gas or electricity to do so. If you've turned off the water due to a need to redo the plumbing, they will now complain.

All involved will see how the transition works in the new model - I hope it won't involve too much builder's bum.

inquisitive
06-29-2011, 06:49 AM
Alright!

I didnt receive a notification that it was available.

Thanks


It has been, a few weeks ago. It's also available for all users of 9.x now, check http://register.newtek.com .

Cheers,
Mike

mythek1
06-29-2011, 07:01 AM
All involved will see how the transition works in the new model - I hope it won't involve too much builder's bum.
Quite right.....

http://www.cardsandgifts-direct.co.uk/ekmps/shops/cardsandgifts/images/rude-humorous-greeting-card-builders-bum-129-p.jpg

This picture is posted to illustrate the words 'Builders Bum.' The accompanying image is an unfortunate objectification of the female body for which I apologise in case any offence is caused.:)

mythek1
06-29-2011, 07:03 AM
Ok, ok, the disclaimer was a bit of a stretch so for the sake of balance and any ladies on here........

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41571_22251834593_132661_n.jpg
...no more hijacking

Lightwolf
06-29-2011, 07:11 AM
Alright!

I didnt receive a notification that it was available.

Yeah, the announcement by NT was kind of, how shall I put it, sub-optimal.. :hey:

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
06-29-2011, 07:15 AM
Ok, ok, the disclaimer was a bit of a stretch so for the sake of balance and any ladies on here........Oh, man. It was bad enough having to work for that guy in my twenties - must you remind me?

Dreamcube017
06-29-2011, 07:33 AM
I haven't really spoken on this as I'm only a 9 user.

But I really think it would've been better for them just to start over with CORE so they could do all the stuff they said they would do. Sure, it'd be something totally different... or would it? Under the hood it might be, but as far as us users are concerned, the UI can be almost exactly the same. (With blender the base is nearly the same with completly different UI) So NT could've kept CORE running and just had the UI and shortcut keys be the same. A good example of this is Windows 7 vs. Windows Vista. Vista had pretty bad proformance issues and then MS came out with 7 which was built on a comp0letly different kernal. However, because it looked and sounded just like Vista, those who didn't know much about computers said it was going to be just as bad simply because it looked just like Vista.

I would've liked to see an alpha build of CORE anyhow... Oh well. That aside, I like Lightwave 10 for what it is.

*after thought*

Hm... earlier someone mentioned everyone having to pay for upgrades, but didn't NT promise HARDCORE members that they would get a few free upgrades?... or is that now void because there is no more CORE?

mythek1
06-29-2011, 07:37 AM
Oh, man. It was bad enough having to work for that guy in my twenties - must you remind me?
It's best to confront these things, otherwise everytime you go to park your bike, or fill a toast rack, these suppressed memories WILL come back to haunt you.:)

Lewis
06-29-2011, 07:42 AM
I would've liked to see an alpha build of CORE anyhow... Oh well. That aside, I like Lightwave 10 for what it is.


I'd show it in action gladly (especially those last few videos i did in HC) but I don't believe NT would allow this outside of HC forums :(.

Larry_g1s
06-29-2011, 07:46 AM
Yea, it is worth noting that CORE was still looking like it was alive and well when that survey was made. LW-users were just not too happy with the idea. The other thing worth noting is that there is not real marketshare in this survey.Some LW-users. ;) Not all.

Dreamcube017
06-29-2011, 07:53 AM
I'd show it in action gladly (especially those last few videos i did in HC) but I don't believe NT would allow this outside of HC forums :(.

I suppose you're right... but then again, why would they care now? It's not like they're ever going to do anything with it now anyway. Might as well let us see what will never be.

UNLESS... they've got something similar in the works.

Red_Oddity
06-29-2011, 07:56 AM
Oh, man. It was bad enough having to work for that guy in my twenties - must you remind me?

And this is what your family sees every time you are fixing stuff in and around the house.


Also, this shall henceforth be the day known as the the day Red_Oddity got banned for life from the forums :D

Dreamcube017
06-29-2011, 08:09 AM
Ok maybe I'm a little lost on 3D modeling... but how is Modeler behind the times of other software. You don't have to mention other software by name, but just features in general? The reason I'm asking is because even though Modeler works a bit differently from some other modeling apps, it seems just fine for the most part (aside from that god forsaken tumbling while rotating the camera)

Titus
06-29-2011, 08:19 AM
Yeah, the announcement on NTs was kind of, how shall I put it, sub-optimal.. :hey:

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks for the heads up. Downloading 9.6.1 right now.

Lewis
06-29-2011, 09:04 AM
Ok maybe I'm a little lost on 3D modeling... but how is Modeler behind the times of other software. You don't have to mention other software by name, but just features in general? The reason I'm asking is because even though Modeler works a bit differently from some other modeling apps, it seems just fine for the most part (aside from that god forsaken tumbling while rotating the camera)

It's not so behind feature vise if you use lot of 3rd party plugins and so (luckily there is lot of them free but then again many are 32 bit only or PC only so it's bad situation for MAC and 64bit) but some important features still miss like work planes, live interactive tools, gizmos and some other stuff like modeling in camera view, modifier stack, history, parametric modeling and animations modeling functions are impossible to do in modeler (due separation) so in that regard we are far behind many "other". Also large poly-count editing in modeler is totally no go (you get 0.1 FPS with 1 million polys at editing, actually i dare to say that even on 500k polys you won't get more than 1-2 FPS). and that's quick summary (i could probably write many pages of text with info what's wrong or need to be updated in modeler :)).

NanoGator
06-29-2011, 09:27 AM
Ok maybe I'm a little lost on 3D modeling... but how is Modeler behind the times of other software. You don't have to mention other software by name, but just features in general? The reason I'm asking is because even though Modeler works a bit differently from some other modeling apps, it seems just fine for the most part (aside from that god forsaken tumbling while rotating the camera)

I use Modeler a lot even tho I primarily use Maya. I love it, I think it's great for the movie set work I do. (Buildings, floors, windows, mechanical details, etc.) The fine-grain control you have in Modeler is still something Maya hasn't successfully replicated. That said, there are a few things that bother me:

When you use camera projection in Layout, the camera info isn't saved with the object or the surface, so when you open it up in Modeler you get a blank texture. This is unfortnate because it gives Maya, Modo, and Cinema a huge advantage Maya and Modo both are more active in how they handle mouse clicks. Double clicking on an edge in Maya, for example, selects the edge loop. This is VERY handy when doing revision work with the Production Designer sitting behind you. It'd be nice if Modeler could steal some of Modo's hierarchical features, but without adding another layer oif complexity. (i.e. more Layer options like "do not cast shadows", etc. Modo's method of doing it is confusing and I don't want confing added to my workflow.) Modeler is very behing in terms of curve-related tools. I end up using Maya almost exclusively when I'm working on more whimsical movies like Alice in Wonderland. It'd be nice if LW's HUD had a mode where you could see items in Layout, only in their world positions instead of their neutral pose. (They wouldn't have to be editble, just visible...) It seems as tho Modeler's not as snazzy at handling oodles of polygons as the other apps are. I wish I could give a scientific opinon on that but the apps are differente enough there's some sense to it. I know Boardwalk was a problem for me in that regard.



I'm dying to see Modeler actually get some updates, it's been a while.

Snosrap
06-29-2011, 10:37 AM
Wouldn't Modeler require a radical rewrite to bring it up to modern standards?

I know Rob was saying that CORE technologies can be introduced in a way that allows for continued use of the program.
Why not take Core and strip the animation and rendering functions from it and of course tidy up the interface and tools and have it replace modeler? Still use the Hub to talk to layout etc.. A stop gap measure before they attempt to bring modeling tools into layout - if indeed that is what they intend to do.

mythek1
06-29-2011, 10:57 AM
Why not take Core and strip the animation and rendering functions from it and of course tidy up the interface and tools and have it replace modeler? Still use the Hub to talk to layout etc.. A stop gap measure before they attempt to bring modeling tools into layout - if indeed that is what they intend to do.
This was obviously a lot easier said than done with or without the functions you mentioned.

One of the big plusses for me in CORE was the potential for handling polygons. Can someone explain to me what it would take to improve working with high polygon counts in Modeler in terms of tumble speed etc?

Philbert
06-29-2011, 10:58 AM
Why not take Core and strip the animation and rendering functions from it and of course tidy up the interface and tools and have it replace modeler? Still use the Hub to talk to layout etc.. A stop gap measure before they attempt to bring modeling tools into layout - if indeed that is what they intend to do.

The major down side to that would be losing all of the plugins that are currently available to Modeler.

cresshead
06-29-2011, 12:03 PM
"yeh another has pretty good painting system and okay modelling but only a bare bones renderer with no GI, just ao to help out"

Cinema?

Tick!...you won a prize!:D:newtek:

cresshead
06-29-2011, 12:04 PM
oohh, oooh, this game by cresshead is fun. Iīm gonna play it:




I think this one is Modo.





aha! the rewrite thing gave me the hint. Must be Blender.




This oneīs your favourite Messiah.





erm...darn, this oneīs tough. Could it be Sketch-up? I really donīt know much about it apart from beig oriented to arch-viz modelling.





whoa...Iīm lost here...strata doesnīt fit...dunno 3dCoat? (although I would say its modelling is way better than "okay" so I donīt think it fits either...)

4 out of 5 well done!:thumbsup:

jeric_synergy
06-29-2011, 12:08 PM
However people can't be bothered to go chase them around the web, they don't see it, they blame LW for not having it. They'll blame LW for having poor UV tools, but they wont go and look for other, usually free, solutions.

My suggestion is to go and look through those plugins, contact their authors, negotiate the terms and start incorporating and improving those solutions into LW toolset.

It is a) a lot of work to do that, and b) very confusing too.

Just sayin'.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2011, 12:12 PM
heh, it is fun, but:


oohh, oooh, this game by cresshead is fun. Iīm gonna play it:



aha! the rewrite thing gave me the hint. Must be Blender.

Since blender is, by design, ALWAYS getting rewritten, seems a bit unfair.

AND, I have yet to see anyone admitting to using blender on a big commercial production. Which is pretty odd.

NanoGator
06-29-2011, 12:17 PM
AND, I have yet to see anyone admitting to using blender on a big commercial production. Which is pretty odd.

We used it lightly on Avatar for modeling some low-res viney stuff. Blender's tool-set for that was pretty slick, but its interface was convoluted enough that nobody could really retain what they learned on it.

Celshader
06-29-2011, 12:23 PM
AND, I have yet to see anyone admitting to using blender on a big commercial production. Which is pretty odd.

Anthony Zierhut used Blender for animatics (http://anthonyzierhut.com/main/?category_name=links&paged=6) on Spider-Man 2. He later switched to LightWave for that production, but a screenshot (http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/testimonials/animatics-for-motion-pictures/) of his Blender work appears in the art book for that film.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Cool. I've made this query before, this is the first I've got responses. (and thanks for the cites, Jen.)

NANOGATER, was that Blender per se, or the blender-related Vine-growing utility? (Which, btw, everybody should dl and use: it coughs out OBJ files.)

Cageman
06-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Cool. I've made this query before, this is the first I've got responses. (and thanks for the cites, Jen.)

NANOGATER, was that Blender per se, or the blender-related Vine-growing utility? (Which, btw, everybody should dl and use: it coughs out OBJ files.)

Is this the one? http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/

Never thought it was related to Blender... but in any case... it is a nice and nifty tool! :)

NanoGator
06-29-2011, 12:41 PM
Cool. I've made this query before, this is the first I've got responses. (and thanks for the cites, Jen.)

NANOGATER, was that Blender per se, or the blender-related Vine-growing utility? (Which, btw, everybody should dl and use: it coughs out OBJ files.)

I'm not fluent enough in Blender to say for sure. We did open up Blender, though, open up .LWO files, and start building vines in there. It wasn't a separate app, if that's what you mean.

Titus
06-29-2011, 12:46 PM
AND, I have yet to see anyone admitting to using blender on a big commercial production. Which is pretty odd.

We don't work on "big commercial production" yet, but we're using Blender in commercials in a daily basis. I've said many time before, LW and Blender make a good combination.

Snosrap
06-29-2011, 01:27 PM
The major down side to that would be losing all of the plugins that are currently available to Modeler.
True that.

jasonwestmas
06-29-2011, 01:32 PM
The major down side to that would be losing all of the plugins that are currently available to Modeler.

That's not necessarily true but I can understand why some wouldn't want to have to use two modeling environments. Wouldn't bother me though.

Larry_g1s
06-29-2011, 01:33 PM
The major down side to that would be losing all of the plugins that are currently available to Modeler.I would take no problem. Heck Victor was willing to do a Core specif version of LWCAD.
Backwards compatibility is great and all, but not at the expense of keeping something back.