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Chuck
06-22-2011, 02:15 PM
Dear LightWave Community:

The NewTek 3D Team has, over the last few days, shared an important update on our development direction with our HardCORE team, and we now want to share this news with the community at large. Here is our update for you:

Update for NewTek LightWave 3D®

In early 2009, NewTek introduced a new direction for LightWave 3D® software called CORE technology. The CORE technology initiative represented a new, unified 3D application that would allow artists and TDs to model, animate, and render on a next generation platform.

First Benefits of CORE Technology Realized in LightWave™ 10

With the successful delivery of LightWave™ 10 software (December 2010), and our aggressive schedule to deliver LightWave 10.1, expected to ship this month, we’ve already been able to integrate new features based on CORE technology—the Viewport Preview Renderer (VPR) and Data Interchange Tools in LightWave 10—and bring those benefits and advancements to our LightWave customer base faster. LightWave 10.1 will introduce even more new features and benefits that are a direct result of our CORE technology.

New Approach to Deliver New Technology

Based on the positive success we had integrating the CORE technology-driven VPR into LightWave 10, we have decided to change course for how we intend to deliver CORE technology. Rather than create a re-branded, new product in a separate package—which considering the constant evolution of technology, could take months or even years—we plan to implement the CORE technology advancements directly into LightWave itself, in an iterative fashion. We are aware that re-writes and updates to the underlying architecture for LightWave will be necessary to accommodate the advanced features that CORE technology represents, and we are confident that these re-writes are possible. The final mandate and objective remains: incorporate new features and benefits from CORE technology into LightWave so our customer base can benefit from the most powerful, useful, and intuitive 3D tools in the industry.

What’s next for LightWave?

We’re staying on course by expanding the architecture within LightWave and developing amazing tools based on CORE technology. We plan to deliver incremental releases of LightWave, as promised to our customer base. The overall goal for the functionality and features that we all want has not changed—only the product and method in which we will deliver them is changing.

We hope you share our commitment and resolve, as we look forward to announcing the next release of LightWave, which will feature even more amazing new features based on new LightWave architectural enhancements and breakthroughs. We truly value our user community—who are among the most loyal and passionate in the industry. We want you to know that this new direction we take today will ultimately benefit us all. Thank you for your support and continued use of LightWave.

NewTek 3D Development Group

Ivan D. Young
06-22-2011, 02:31 PM
I believe this is a similar strategy that Autodesk is using for Xcalibur. Modularly switch out components while continuing current platforms without going dark.

Cloak&Dagger
06-22-2011, 02:34 PM
I feel this is the best solution for all of the LW users. Allow us to keep working with software that we know but add new features and advances to improve the product.

Tough call, but a good one.

UnCommonGrafx
06-22-2011, 02:39 PM
That's a brave move. Necessary and brave, for sure.

As a teacher of LW, this is most appreciated. Here's to hoping for python and bullet coming to a lw project near me soon.

Bookman
06-22-2011, 02:40 PM
only time will tell, but it's what we have to work with, so might as well make the most of it.

motivalex
06-22-2011, 02:40 PM
"The overall goal for the functionality and features that we all want has not changed—only the product and method in which we will deliver them is changing. "

If this is the case, then fair enough. Make sure the updated and new features are thought out and implemented well.

animotion
06-22-2011, 02:45 PM
Nose to the grindstone!
Its clobberin time!!

Best of luck on the new direction of LW.

MacDoggie
06-22-2011, 02:46 PM
It's a good move as far as I am concerned... Looking forward to the new modelling tools :thumbsup:

Nangleator
06-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Looking forward to even more improvements coming down the road!

Glad I won't have to start from scratch with a new interface!

T-Light
06-22-2011, 02:52 PM
Good luck Newtek :thumbsup:

Looking forward to Layout and Modelers advanced functionality.

wyattharris
06-22-2011, 02:52 PM
Thank you for the hard work. Looking forward to LightWave's future.

BokadCastle
06-22-2011, 02:53 PM
Hey, I signed on for the ride - the fun, the theatre, the drama and the whole boom crash opera.
Include me in - (tautology intended)

:D

MUCUS
06-22-2011, 02:54 PM
So glad to read this! I'm really, really happy to learn that Lightwave interface is not going to disappear :thumbsup: And yes, can't wait to see our good old modeler being updated!

robertoortiz
06-22-2011, 02:54 PM
That's a brave move. Necessary and brave, for sure.

As a teacher of LW, this is most appreciated. Here's to hoping for python and bullet coming to a lw project near me soon.

Hear hear
-R

jasonwestmas
06-22-2011, 02:55 PM
only time will tell, but it's what we have to work with, so might as well make the most of it.

yep, not the features that were first presented but gotta go with what we are given.

monovich
06-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Sounds good to me. the CORE features in LW so far have been really nice to have.

I hope the software can mature elegantly. I am often challenged to work around the limitations of the current foundation when figuring out how to make something.

My single biggest request would be keyframable geometry creation like animated extrusions, booleans, etc. It would be unbelievably huge for me.

nickdigital
06-22-2011, 03:02 PM
thank you for the hard work. Looking forward to lightwave's future.

+1!

rcallicotte
06-22-2011, 03:07 PM
Hope it works well for everyone.

artstorm
06-22-2011, 03:08 PM
I think this is a positive and wise move and I'm looking forward to the next release.

kopperdrake
06-22-2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the deliberation, you guys must have consumed gargantuan amounts of coffee over the last few months. Count us in :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
06-22-2011, 03:23 PM
God save the queen!

SBowie
06-22-2011, 03:35 PM
God save the queen!I didn't even know she was ill. Do please give her our best wishes. :)
(I'm assuming she's not been captured by pirates, or anything of that sort).

T-Light
06-22-2011, 03:41 PM
Sbowie-

I didn't even know she was ill. Do please give her our best wishes.
She's not ill, She fell of Her perch when Chuck announced Core tec in Lightwave, quite the fan I believe :thumbsup:

Hominid 3D
06-22-2011, 03:45 PM
I´m sorry, but I don´t get it.

Core development has been abandoned, and some of the features that worked will be bolted on to LW, like VPR? Is that it?

In other words, no true history and no true unified environment in the foreseeable future, both of which relied on a completely new architecture that CORE supposedly offered?!

So, businees as usual with added functions with every new LW version, but no revolutionary LW replacement running in QT as promised for years??

Sorry if I got something wrong here, but that sounds like a major letdown to me, and not something to be praised.

leroy3rd
06-22-2011, 03:48 PM
...that sounds like a major letdown to me, and not something to be praised.

:agree:

T-Light
06-22-2011, 03:50 PM
Hominid3D -

So, businees as usual with added functions with every new LW version, but no revolutionary LW replacement running in QT as promised for years??
...Sorry if I got something wrong here, but that sounds like a major letdown to me, and not something to be praised.
No, the goals are to be reached in a similar timeframe, but rather than waiting for years for one finished app, you get all the benefits of the working programs upgraded over time with Core technology.

SBowie
06-22-2011, 03:50 PM
Core development has been abandoned, and some of the features that worked will be bolted on to LW, like VPR? Is that it?Apparently not. The announcement makes liberal reference to CORE technology. By all accounts, a bit of a peek behind the curtain indicates that this expression is not mere marketing-speak, but actually describes a significant part of the ongoing development process adopted. (Others may add more.)

MUCUS
06-22-2011, 03:52 PM
Well If I get it right, features that are currently intended to be part of Lightwave Core (such as bullet physics or history stack and instances) will be integrated in Lightwave, this good old and marvelous Lightwave we all know for years :)
This is the best turnover I could hope :thumbsup:

chco2
06-22-2011, 03:54 PM
This is a case of talking before knowing.
I agree.. Core has been kinda "toiletized", but if the functionality is brought into the existing framework.. Who cares?
Why can't they build in true history into the package or other CORE features. Actually I don't care, as long as they do and update current LW 10.1 with the same motion they have over the last year.
I bought myself into CORE as well, but I have been very satisfied uptill now and will support NT if they continue current path.


I´m sorry, but I don´t get it.

Core development has been abandoned, and some of the features that worked will be bolted on to LW, like VPR? Is that it?

In other words, no true history and no true unified environment in the foreseeable future, both of which relied on a completely new architecture that CORE supposedly offered?!

So, businees as usual with added functions with every new LW version, but no revolutionary LW replacement running in QT as promised for years??

Sorry if I got something wrong here, but that sounds like a major letdown to me, and not something to be praised.

Wireframex
06-22-2011, 03:55 PM
So glad to read this! I'm really, really happy to learn that Lightwave interface is not going to disappear :thumbsup: And yes, can't wait to see our good old modeler being updated!

Not totally agree with you guy ... Sometimes its not good to keep old code to make something new (that's why the Core Project was born) --> just have a look to Softimage / Max / Blender history ...

I just wanted to see Core for months a lot of work of the team on it and now ...

Hope NT Team took the best solution

wireX

jasonwestmas
06-22-2011, 03:55 PM
I´m sorry, but I don´t get it.

Core development has been abandoned, and some of the features that worked will be bolted on to LW, like VPR? Is that it?

In other words, no true history and no true unified environment in the foreseeable future, both of which relied on a completely new architecture that CORE supposedly offered?!

So, businees as usual with added functions with every new LW version, but no revolutionary LW replacement running in QT as promised for years??

Sorry if I got something wrong here, but that sounds like a major letdown to me, and not something to be praised.

Allbeit obscure, if you have done enough reading like most of the crazy people here you would find that NT plans to replace the very foundations of Lightwave with the Core SDK using C++ and put the older C scripts and plugins in some kind of a wrapper so they still work for several years.

Hominid 3D
06-22-2011, 04:00 PM
This is a case of talking before knowing.
I agree.. Core has been kinda "toiletized", but if the functionality is brought into the existing framework.. Who cares?
Why can't they build in true history into the package or other CORE features. Actually I don't care, as long as they do and update current LW 10.1 with the same motion they have over the last year.
I bought myself into CORE as well, but I have been very satisfied uptill now and will support NT if they continue current path.

Well, I do care seeing Lightwave has a lot of problems already. For example motion plugins, expressions, Ik orders etc etc not detecting each other properly or slowing things down to a crawl.

I was looking forward to a true modular architecture that would allow everything to see everything. As it seems now what was garbled will even become more so.

Let´s hope not, but for now all I see is a copout.

hrgiger
06-22-2011, 04:02 PM
I´m sorry, but I don´t get it.

Core development has been abandoned, and some of the features that worked will be bolted on to LW, like VPR? Is that it?

In other words, no true history and no true unified environment in the foreseeable future, both of which relied on a completely new architecture that CORE supposedly offered?!

So, businees as usual with added functions with every new LW version, but no revolutionary LW replacement running in QT as promised for years??



Well, not exactly, if you read the update, you'll see the goals are the same(which isn't explicitely stated, but the goal was a unified application with various bells and whistles). A lot of us believed that was only possible with the new architecture of CORE (and still do honestly). Newtek is confident they will be able to restructure LW to achieve the same destination. Time will tell.

Hominid 3D
06-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Allbeit obscure, if you have done enough reading like most of the crazy people here you would find that NT plans to replace the very foundations of Lightwave with the Core SDK using C++ and put the older C scripts and plugins in some kind of a wrapper so they still work for several years.

I didn´t buy into HC, but from NT´s arguments and marketing I was under the impression that QT was one of the major reasons and a foundation for CORE to make true open modularity possible.

The way you´re describing it CORE will be rebranded as LW and all the classic functionality will be included in wrappers. That´s not what I´m getting from that statement.

calilifestyle
06-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Goals the same. But does this mean that Lw version 10 will be updated up till all of core tech is implemented. or will it be more like every next version of lw will see core tech implemented. So lw10 has vpr , then lw11 gets uvunwarp, lw12 bullet dynamics, lw13 history, and so on.

chco2
06-22-2011, 04:08 PM
I agree on animation limitations in regards to other packages, but as a programmer myself, with the rewrite mentioned 5 posts earlier of the core (not CORE!) code to c++, I am very confident they can address these needs and CORE does not have to be the base of it.
Let me put it this way.. I do have the feeling NT is taking steps forward in various directions where even other packages still lack on the same features. If I (and others) loose faith in the steps NT takes it will be the end of LW.
Sure, we should have our vote into steps we think should be different or done different, but as long as I get the feeling NT is listening to what we are saying and deliver.. I support them.


Well, I do care seeing Lightwave has a lot of problems already. For example motion plugins, expressions, Ik orders etc etc not detecting each other properly or slowing things down to a crawl.

I was looking forward to a reue modular architecture that would allow everything to see everything. As it seems now what was garbled will even become more so.

Let´s hope not, but for now all I see is a copout.

jasonwestmas
06-22-2011, 04:09 PM
Whoops, removed

hrgiger
06-22-2011, 04:14 PM
That´s not what I´m getting from that statement.

This statement and conversation go into a little more detail in the hardcore forums. Not much more detail mind you, but some.

Basically a lot of what CORE offered in potential- Newtek thinks they can restructure LW classic to bring the same results but faster then the CORE avenue.

With either path, there is a long road ahead with an uncertain outcome.

Elmar Moelzer
06-22-2011, 04:15 PM
I think that Rob made a good decision. It takes guts, but it was really the only path that he could have taken. I applaud him for that.

gclayton
06-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Are these the same people from the HardCORE forum making these nice statements?

Two different worlds!

Hominid 3D
06-22-2011, 04:42 PM
Ok, last thing I´ll say about this. Don´t want to be mistaken for a troll.

Wasn´t one of the statements from NT that the CORE project was brought to life because Lightwave COULDN`T be rewritten?

And now they´re saying the exact opposite?

So what, two years from now they´ll change direction again?

jasonwestmas
06-22-2011, 04:44 PM
Ok, last thing I´ll say about this. Don´t want to be mistaken for a troll.

Wasn´t one of the statements from NT that the CORE project was brought to life because Lightwave COULDN`T be rewritten?

And now they´re saying the exact opposite?

So what, two years from now they´ll change direction again?

Yes, you are correct but they'll only generally change direction again if something doesn't work this third time. The specific goals are vague anyway and they don't plan on sticking to a features list like they have in the past I'm sure. Because as we know the features list is usually incredibly unrealistic to begin with which is why we are in this situation.

zarti
06-22-2011, 04:45 PM
best wishes for nt ,

hope youll have the 4 wheels on ground when youll come out from this turn .

ncr100
06-22-2011, 05:26 PM
... does this mean that Lw version 10 will be updated up till all of core tech is implemented. or will it be more like every next version of lw will see core tech implemented. So lw10 has vpr , then lw11 gets uvunwarp, lw12 bullet dynamics, lw13 history, and so on.

NT doesn't have a public answer to this yet. Adding to LightWave gives different ramp-up penalty vs to CORE - the scheduling must be adjusted.

lardbros
06-22-2011, 05:28 PM
I think this might just work.... thanks for letting us know Newtek... now, get those CORE technologies into LW... :D

realgray
06-22-2011, 05:35 PM
I think that Rob made a good decision. It takes guts, but it was really the only path that he could have taken. I applaud him for that.:thumbsup:

Larry_g1s
06-22-2011, 05:41 PM
a lot of us believed that was only possible with the new architecture of core (and still do honestly). Newtek is confident they will be able to restructure lw to achieve the same destination. Time will tell.+1

probiner
06-22-2011, 06:27 PM
"Time will tell" echoes all over the thread. Unfortunetely for some it has already told long ago, since they are gone =/
Hopefully NT won't leave the conversation there and bring the arguments that were meant in the first place.

Best wishes for those in the adventurous journey! See you at the pier, waiting for news about new worlds.

Dexter2999
06-22-2011, 06:45 PM
I'm not sure how much detail I should go into (not that I know much) or if this is right place for it, but it appears to be the only place left for it.


Overall a sound decision. Best way to keep the current userbase happy/intact.

However, the downside is that goal of attracting converts and expanding the userbase is undermined. The stigma (and there is one, be it unfounded or not still there) will carry over with the continuation of the brand. Will the icons be incorperated into LW11? I am also curious as to how a Linux based version is to be arrived at there being none to build upon. Has this been set aside as a goal as well?

I have no doubt the capable individuals at Newtek can incorperate other features such as a History stack and Python and I am sure we are all eager to see these changes ushered in.

CG Addict
06-22-2011, 07:09 PM
This whole CORE thing, from the intro viral till now reminds me of an old film classic... anybody? Hint: it involved a yellow brick road. It was only a dream the whole time.

KurtF
06-22-2011, 07:11 PM
I've been watching Lightwave since the announcement of Core, as Core appeared more interesting to me than Lightwave itself. It was exciting to see the node based structure, the cleaner, less cluttered interface, the use of angles instead of Heading, Pitch, Yaw. Little things to be sure, but that's what I liked. And for those who preferred the original Lightwave look and feel, the interface could be completely customized. Very impressive and certainly a bold move on the part of Lightwave developers.

Once Lightwave has had enough of a 'transfusion' to become more Core than say - Lightwave 9, I'm sure I'll get excited again.

thomascheng
06-22-2011, 08:33 PM
To sum it up. It sounds like Core is still being continually developed and will be rolled into LW Classic. This sounds like a very good move. This will maintain the current user base, let us get new Core tech architecture that is compatible with LW. All of our plugins we invested over the years, will still work!

It's whats been said before. This is "LW with Core Technology."

geo_n
06-22-2011, 08:35 PM
I was disappointed when they announced it but you deal with what you have.
For those that bought in for core 1.0 unified app with node architecture, bullet dynamics, uv tools, linux I'm sure they're mighty disappointed and already voiced out their opinions at hc.
I personally hope they atleast honor their agreement of bullet dynamics, uvtools and integrate as much of modeller in layout soon as in this lw 10 version.
Without it we got tools in 10 that weren't the actual tools we were told and quite frankly buggy as hell. FFx cough..cough. Weight map blur, Really?
No lw 11 for me if newtek fails on its promises on 10.

One thing I would add that maybe newtek has overlooked, lwers are a dying breed. Only the best or the veterans seem to be getting jobs and projects. While other 3D users who are noobs or even beginners are getting hired by the dozens each month for training around the world. These people will be the next generation and will be the TDs and senior artist in 5 years. Guess what, they're not using lightwave. Core was their chance to get a lot of new users in.
They should focus on making lightwave free for education. But they're focused on the small group of veterans that probably killed core.

speismonqui
06-22-2011, 08:56 PM
These people will be the next generation and will be the TDs and senior artist in 5 years. Guess what, they're not using lightwave. Core was their chance to get a lot of new users in.
They should focus on making lightwave free for education. But they're focused on the small group of veterans that probably killed core.

sadly I :agree:
I also think CORE was a new excitement beggining for LW and a new breed of Waver's, but time is getting short.

I'm not that happy with the news, maybe because one of my favorite features about CORE was the "unified" application, I dont see that coming in the near future, but...
best wishes to Newtek, I will support them no matter what.
:thumbsup:

JeffrySG
06-22-2011, 09:46 PM
For me it all comes down to what Lightwave v11 will offer feature wise. I'm not going to worry about anything until then. I hope it knocks my socks off. Time will tell.

probiner
06-22-2011, 09:47 PM
These people will be the next generation and will be the TDs and senior artist in 5 years. Guess what, they're not using lightwave. Core was their chance to get a lot of new users in.
They should focus on making lightwave free for education. But they're focused on the small group of veterans that probably killed core.Quoted for agreement. (But...) LW was what my college had and teacher knew. Freelance is whatever, but the studios here is a bit AD or gtfo, so you feel that you've learned a lot with it but there's a poor interface with the market.

So the questions would be:
- What is the position NT projects LW's future in the market along the others?
- Ppl today use whatever it's good, so could LW specialize in something really well with --continuous innovation--, quit half baked features and connect with other main apps? Or still aiming to be the "CORE" of the production for everything?
- What could one person learning LW expect to do or fit in the market?
- To which tasks is LW relegated to on the most places that it's used today and what attracted new users back in the days? Did LW dropped the ball on those or didn't keep up with the innovations as time passed by?
- LW is not unknown to many, it's forgotten. Brand-wise, feature-wise, CORE as presented before, would hit the market better no? Because LW with CORE technology sounds like old limitations with new plugins.

Only then, I think, education free would be clear enough and very beneficial for both NT and new users, like it's working for AD now, I guess.

Best wishes to everyone involved.

MacDoggie
06-22-2011, 09:57 PM
So glad to read this! I'm really, really happy to learn that Lightwave interface is not going to disappear :thumbsup: And yes, can't wait to see our good old modeler being updated!

Which is where we should have been in the first place.. But we live and learn. IMO Modeller has to be brought into the fold and we go from there. It appears the the core architecture which is already in place is half the battle so I don't think we are that far off. Truth is 9.6.1 (or is it 10?) is very functional and can tie you over til then. I have been using Mod and have waited this long so I can wait a bit longer... Either way I am covered:thumbsup: Thank goodness we have this core thing behind us... at last :D

MacDoggie
06-22-2011, 10:06 PM
Well, not exactly, if you read the update, you'll see the goals are the same(which isn't explicitely stated, but the goal was a unified application with various bells and whistles). A lot of us believed that was only possible with the new architecture of CORE (and still do honestly). Newtek is confident they will be able to restructure LW to achieve the same destination. Time will tell.

I totally agree, the core architecture IS the Key and I don't see any reason why you can't build on top of it. I also believe that once Modeller is built on the core architecture, we WILL see the unified app that needs to be in place. LW was a segregated application originally because of the different architectures that were in place to begin with...
:thumbsup:

MacDoggie
06-22-2011, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmar Moelzer
I think that Rob made a good decision. It takes guts, but it was really the only path that he could have taken. I applaud him for that.


:thumbsup:

Ditto:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Phrog
06-22-2011, 10:35 PM
So what exactly does this mean to the pricing structure now? I just can't keep track of all the CORE twists and turns and to be honest I am personally getting frustrated and just plain tired of all this! The day that flay.com changed direction was the day that said it all, Lightwave users are leaving and probably never coming back ... I fear sad days are ahead for Lightwave. Like a politician - too many promises and very little follow through (at least not in a timely manner). Sorry but that is my opinion.

CaptainMarlowe
06-22-2011, 10:59 PM
A bit off topic, but not so much. Viktor Velicko released a newsletter in which he said that as a consequence ofCORE not being released as an app, LWCAD4 will be released for LW9 and LW10.
LW10+CORE TECH+LWCAD4= I'm happy with that road !

GraphXs
06-22-2011, 11:10 PM
A bit off topic, but not so much. Viktor Velicko released a newsletter in which he said that as a consequence ofCORE not being released as an app, LWCAD4 will be released for LW9 and LW10.
LW10+CORE TECH+LWCAD4= I'm happy with that road !

LWCAD 4! :thumbsup::D Wonderful News!

TeZzy
06-22-2011, 11:24 PM
Wow, so CORE(referring to the app...not the technology) is out the window. That's some crazy stuff.

Weetos
06-23-2011, 02:31 AM
Ok, so if I'm not mistaken here's my own attempt to summarize what happened since LW9


LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1
Ok, let's go into parallel dev and secretly start a new LW from scratch using modern programming technologies
New project is codenamed 'Thor' and consists of a unified architecture
Oh my God, we discovered Qt - we now can design a modern UI
Did you see that guys ? it runs on GNU/Linux !
Sounds cool so far - LW9 will be the last version of the old code.
Let's do some buzz !
Ok we somehow screwed it up, CORE is far from being finished but we promise we will be delivering CORE soon
OOps - ok you didn't understand - CORE isn't not a complete program, it's a private Club where you can talk to the Dev Team who's working on nextgen LW
If you preorder now, you'll get CORE at the end of the semester
If you preorder now, you'll get tons of cool stuff and eventually CORE at the end of the year
preorder now and you'll get CORE when it's finished (some day in the future) - Oh and by the way, LW was used on Avatar and we hired Rob Powers
Ok we now need some cash, let's release a version 10 with some new features from CORE
preorder LW10 now and enter the HardCORE Club !
hummmm
Ok we're sorry, statements #1 and #2 are still true but don't care now, we give up on CORE and we prefer transferring the new technology to the old pile of crap. The concept of adding cool feature to a pile of half-baked features inherited from the 90's is amazing.
Please go back to #1 and increment LW version by one unit, and forget about everything we told you


Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

Cageman
06-23-2011, 02:43 AM
Ok, so if I'm not mistaken here's my own attempt to summarize what happened since LW9


LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1
Ok, let's go into parallel dev and secretly start a new LW from scratch using modern programming technologies
New project is codenamed 'Thor' and consists of a unified architecture
Oh my God, we discovered Qt - we now can design a modern UI
Did you see that guys ? it runs on GNU/Linux !
Sounds cool so far - LW9 will be the last version of the old code.
Let's do some buzz !
Ok we somehow screwed it up, CORE is far from being finished but we promise we will be delivering CORE soon
OOps - ok you didn't understand - CORE isn't not a complete program, it's a private Club where you can talk to the Dev Team who's working on nextgen LW
If you preorder now, you'll get CORE at the end of the semester
If you preorder now, you'll get tons of cool stuff and eventually CORE at the end of the year
preorder now and you'll get CORE when it's finished (some day in the future) - Oh and by the way, LW was used on Avatar and we hired Rob Powers
Ok we now need some cash, let's release a version 10 with some new features from CORE
preorder LW10 now and enter the HardCORE Club !
hummmm
Ok we're sorry, statements #1 and #2 are still true but don't care now, we give up on CORE and we prefer transferring the new technology to the old pile of crap. The concept of adding cool feature to a pile of half-baked features inherited from the 90's is amazing.
Please go back to #1 and increment LW version by one unit, and forget about everything we told you


Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

That is pretty much how things have happened, yes. I'm still sceptical about it all, but the proof will be in the pudding. One thing though, that is easily overlooked here is that the devs themselves are nowdays confident that they can pull it off, and to be honest, looking at some of the things that third party can achive (TurbulenceFD, VoluMedic etc) I will at least give them a chance to prove it.

For me, it doesn't matter that much, since I allready have a multiapp workflow, and LW10.x have good things going for it regarding rendering. I can wait, since LW isn't the only app I use.

Time will tell, and I suspect we will see things no later than this Siggraph.

djlithium
06-23-2011, 02:56 AM
Ok, so if I'm not mistaken here's my own attempt to summarize what happened since LW9


LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1
Ok, let's go into parallel dev and secretly start a new LW from scratch using modern programming technologies
New project is codenamed 'Thor' and consists of a unified architecture
Oh my God, we discovered Qt - we now can design a modern UI
Did you see that guys ? it runs on GNU/Linux !
Sounds cool so far - LW9 will be the last version of the old code.
Let's do some buzz !
Ok we somehow screwed it up, CORE is far from being finished but we promise we will be delivering CORE soon
OOps - ok you didn't understand - CORE isn't not a complete program, it's a private Club where you can talk to the Dev Team who's working on nextgen LW
If you preorder now, you'll get CORE at the end of the semester
If you preorder now, you'll get tons of cool stuff and eventually CORE at the end of the year
preorder now and you'll get CORE when it's finished (some day in the future) - Oh and by the way, LW was used on Avatar and we hired Rob Powers
Ok we now need some cash, let's release a version 10 with some new features from CORE
preorder LW10 now and enter the HardCORE Club !
hummmm
Ok we're sorry, statements #1 and #2 are still true but don't care now, we give up on CORE and we prefer transferring the new technology to the old pile of crap. The concept of adding cool feature to a pile of half-baked features inherited from the 90's is amazing.
Please go back to #1 and increment LW version by one unit, and forget about everything we told you


Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

They are wrong because you left out the hire and fire part of the guy who made statements 1,2,3 which led us down this path in the first place when we could have just by passed things and saved 3 years. At least now its being corrected for and statement 1 was a lie or an error or whatever - it doesn't matter now, the reality is that it can be done, should have been done and will be done.

biliousfrog
06-23-2011, 03:00 AM
Ok, so if I'm not mistaken here's my own attempt to summarize what happened since LW9


LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1
Ok, let's go into parallel dev and secretly start a new LW from scratch using modern programming technologies
New project is codenamed 'Thor' and consists of a unified architecture
Oh my God, we discovered Qt - we now can design a modern UI
Did you see that guys ? it runs on GNU/Linux !
Sounds cool so far - LW9 will be the last version of the old code.
Let's do some buzz !
Ok we somehow screwed it up, CORE is far from being finished but we promise we will be delivering CORE soon
OOps - ok you didn't understand - CORE isn't not a complete program, it's a private Club where you can talk to the Dev Team who's working on nextgen LW
If you preorder now, you'll get CORE at the end of the semester
If you preorder now, you'll get tons of cool stuff and eventually CORE at the end of the year
preorder now and you'll get CORE when it's finished (some day in the future) - Oh and by the way, LW was used on Avatar and we hired Rob Powers
Ok we now need some cash, let's release a version 10 with some new features from CORE
preorder LW10 now and enter the HardCORE Club !
hummmm
Ok we're sorry, statements #1 and #2 are still true but don't care now, we give up on CORE and we prefer transferring the new technology to the old pile of crap. The concept of adding cool feature to a pile of half-baked features inherited from the 90's is amazing.
Please go back to #1 and increment LW version by one unit, and forget about everything we told you


Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

:ohmy: Spot on


That is pretty much how things have happened, yes. I'm still sceptical about it all, but the proof will be in the pudding. One thing though, that is easily overlooked here is that the devs themselves are nowdays confident that they can pull it off, and to be honest, looking at some of the things that third party can achive (TurbulenceFD, VoluMedic etc) I will at least give them a chance to prove it.

For me, it doesn't matter that much, since I allready have a multiapp workflow, and LW10.x have good things going for it regarding rendering. I can wait, since LW isn't the only app I use.

Time will tell, and I suspect we will see things no later than this Siggraph.

Yes, 3rd parties have done great things with lightwave as-is...it makes you wonder why NewTek haven't managed it though? They did manage to make VPR several years after Worley made it I guess, that's something right?

The problem is that they're just sticking with the band-aid approach which has caused them to fall behind. As long as LW makes camera matching and modelling to camera almost impossible, animated booleans and extrusions a nightmare and all the other problems a two-app product creates, people will be put off. It's great news for the 3rd party developers but it's not great news for people that want to do stuff other apps have always been able to easily.

Yog
06-23-2011, 03:09 AM
Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

No, that's pretty much spot on.

Yog
06-23-2011, 03:13 AM
One thing though, that is easily overlooked here is that the devs themselves are nowdays confident that they can pull it off,
You mean they weren't confident two and a half years ago when they took my money ??? :foreheads

Trust is earned, and unfortunately in the last few years NT have shown they cannot be trusted.

geo_n
06-23-2011, 03:29 AM
meanwhile
http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=57604

weren't these lux guys the same team that made the bulk of lightwave and said unification couldn't be done.

JBT27
06-23-2011, 03:30 AM
At least Chuck tells it like it is, with minimum corporate fluff - appreciated.

Yes - Viktor's announcement brings some major consolation ... the best love Modeler has had in ages comes from Viktor and LWCAD ... long may that continue.

Julian.

JBT27
06-23-2011, 03:32 AM
meanwhile
http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=57604

weren't these lux guys the same team that made the bulk of lightwave and said unification couldn't be done.

They were ... either they're wrong, or they know deep, deep things that the NT dev team haven't spotted yet ... and the original guys would know. But then do they have deep knowledge of the code as it is now?

Inventing LW is one thing, but those guys are not the only smart coders out there ... certainly not for me to say ... not my thing.

Julian.

lino.grandi
06-23-2011, 03:39 AM
LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1




About point one, I would say two things:

1) That "old fashioned code" can be pushed a lot more than we can imagine. External plugins (FPrime, Turbulence, DP_Instance, IBounce and so on) clearly show this.

2) That "old fashioned code" is not "static". Can be greatly improved, and that's what Core Technology will be used for.

That said, point two can be defined totally false.

kopperdrake
06-23-2011, 04:08 AM
A bit off topic, but not so much. Viktor Velicko released a newsletter in which he said that as a consequence ofCORE not being released as an app, LWCAD4 will be released for LW9 and LW10.
LW10+CORE TECH+LWCAD4= I'm happy with that road !

Yep - just been and slapped down the money for it. I hadn't upgraded from 2.5, with all the kerfuffle, but now I know the direction, I've bought his special offer of 2>3 with a free 4 upgrade. Nice one Viktor :thumbsup:

Only better news would be to hear LWCAD's tools being integrated directly into Modeler.

zarti
06-23-2011, 04:16 AM
..

2) That "old fashioned code" is not "static". Can be greatly improved, and that's what Core Technology will be used for.

That said, point two can be defined totally false.

maybe ..

but you can not tell / argue to your ' investor ' that you "needed some funds to buy a new truck to have a better performance as an entrepreneurship"
and instead of that use those funds " to repair / upgrade the offices' toilets " .

it is totally unfair to suck blood from core's carcass in order to keep lw alive .

at least not to those who believed in core and payed with their $ and time .

this is true .

lino.grandi
06-23-2011, 04:24 AM
[QUOTE=lino.grandi;1155934]About point one, I would say two things:

1) That "old fashioned code" can be pushed a lot more than we can imagine. External plugins (FPrime, Turbulence, DP_Instance, IBounce and so on) clearly show this.[QUOTE]
Apart from the fact it was Newtek that stated that the old code had reached the end of it’s life, hence their argument for going with Core.
So why should we believe them (you) when they say the previous statement was completely false ?

You should believe in facts. Just look at what external developers are realizing using the "old fashioned code".

rcallicotte
06-23-2011, 04:28 AM
Agreed.


Well If I get it right, features that are currently intended to be part of Lightwave Core (such as bullet physics or history stack and instances) will be integrated in Lightwave, this good old and marvelous Lightwave we all know for years :)
This is the best turnover I could hope :thumbsup:

hrgiger
06-23-2011, 04:29 AM
1) That "old fashioned code" can be pushed a lot more than we can imagine. External plugins (FPrime, Turbulence, DP_Instance, IBounce and so on) clearly show this.



Respectfully Lino, I've seen artists and designers alike do some of the best creations with the worst tools. What an external plug-in writer does tells me little about the future of LightWave. All it shows me is that there are some creative third party designers who have done a lot with what they have to work with. I've yet to see someone design a plug-in for Lightwave that does not suffer limitations due to the way that LightWave is structured.

When is Newtek going to show us when it will be possible to unify Lightwave in any way that makes sense?

lino.grandi
06-23-2011, 04:46 AM
Respectfully Lino, I've seen artists and designers alike do some of the best creations with the worst tools. What an external plug-in writer does tells me little about the future of LightWave. All it shows me is that there are some creative third party designers who have done a lot with what they have to work with. I've yet to see someone design a plug-in for Lightwave that does not suffer limitations due to the way that LightWave is structured.

I agree with what you say here....that's why I added this:

2) That "old fashioned code" is not "static". Can be greatly improved, and that's what Core Technology will be used for.



When is Newtek going to show us when it will be possible to unify Lightwave in any way that makes sense?

This is not something I can talk about, not now and not me for sure. :)

TeZzy
06-23-2011, 05:01 AM
The way lightwave has progressed really has made me look into other apps.....this last update just made me realise that it was a good choice. My opinion and preference of course.

Cageman
06-23-2011, 05:16 AM
They were ... either they're wrong, or they know deep, deep things that the NT dev team haven't spotted yet ... and the original guys would know. But then do they have deep knowledge of the code as it is now?

One of the things I've heard that the old team said was that it was impossible to create a Light API. We all know today that LW doesn't only have that, but you can code your own cameras if you like. It is quite evident with DPonts Light kit and Liberty3Ds UberCam (among several other camera plugins out there).

Just saying that what the Lux guys mentioned 8-10 years ago can most likely be taken with a grain of salt....

omeone
06-23-2011, 05:30 AM
They were ... either they're wrong, or they know deep, deep things that the NT dev team haven't spotted yet ... and the original guys would know. But then do they have deep knowledge of the code as it is now?

Inventing LW is one thing, but those guys are not the only smart coders out there ... certainly not for me to say ... not my thing.

Julian.

The original guys made some outstanding achievements that would be described as waaaaay above 'smart coding', we're talking several breakthroughs, but that was a long time ago. I don't think the current teams could be accused of making any significant breakthroughs, that's both LW and Modo teams, btw.

colkai
06-23-2011, 05:36 AM
Well, imagine my surprise. :foreheads
With LW11 to be the next gen eh? (Allegedly, subject to change and forward looking in case a new staff member takes over...again).

Thus the CORE product is dropped mid-development.
I can't imagine how miffed I'd be if our company decided to "pull a Newtek", realizing I'd wasted months and months (years?) of work on a product that was not going to see the light of day.
On the up side, the whole debacle of CORE has given me renewed faith in the direction we are taking with our software development, every cloud N all that. :)
Plus one really big bonus, LWCAD4 will now be available for LW9.x - yeah baby! :thumbsup:

achrystie
06-23-2011, 05:46 AM
I just want to say, again, that I'm REALLY glad I didn't buy into the whole CORE thing.

That said, there shouldn't be any limitations to what they can change in the existing Ligthwave.
This whole...well it's programmed in C not C++ is ridiculous and has been from the start.

All of Blender, except for Bullet Physics, is programmed in C, and they reworked the entire interface, have one guy rewriting the render engine and adding a new material system, redid the modifier system, and they created Python API links for basically the entire program making essentially everything animatable in the process.

The language does NOT matter other than the proficiency of the coders at using it, and the ease with which certain things can be done, not whether or not they can be done at all.
Plus, props to Lightwave here, it should be obvious that Lightwave, as old as it is, has a REALLY good plugin architecture, simply by evidence of the plethora of plugins available that do almost anything, even rendering (Fprime).
This is something I've heard a LOT of developers say, and it makes sense, given the data.

So anyway... this whole we need C++ and a new "architecture" was just a marketing ploy to get your money for the "new hotness" of CORE.

OnlineRender
06-23-2011, 05:58 AM
I would buy Core for $40 now ,working or not .

colkai
06-23-2011, 06:06 AM
Well the C vs C++ does have some effect, however, that is *entirely* dependent upon the developers utilising the features.
One can write stunning code in C and abysmal code in C++ with development strategy being more important in many respects than the language used.
Re-writing in C++ achieves nothing in itself if you don't take the advantages you can in the process.
Not saying there are some things which *may* be impossible in C compared to C++, after all, if it's 16-bit code, it ain't likely to work well with modern machines.

Beyond that though, it falls to the developers and the management actually having a clear idea of where they are going, what they want and being capable of sticking to it.

Problem is, management is... err.. well, management, (a misnomer if ever there was one). :p

VonBon
06-23-2011, 06:17 AM
Not saying there are some things which *may* be impossible in C compared to C++, after all, if it's 16-bit code, it ain't likely to work well with modern machines.

i was under the impression that "C" is more powerful than C++, being that
it is a low level code. I was thinking that C++ was just alot of C code
functions and data structures that are already made so that you dont
have to create code from scratch.

Paul_Boland
06-23-2011, 06:20 AM
Before there is any talk of Lightwave 11 and having to buy it, I want ALL the features I paid for when I bought into CORE!

OnlineRender
06-23-2011, 06:28 AM
I would say C++ is more intermediate but that's only because I read wiki the other day .....


It was developed by Bjarne Stroustrup starting in 1979 at Bell Labs as an enhancement to the C language and originally named C with Classes. It was renamed C++ in 1983.

but all this== irrelevance , you can wrap , hack , patch ,get blood from a stone , its not the software that will be effected it's the brand .....................

safetyman
06-23-2011, 06:33 AM
From Roberto Ortiz over at CGSociety:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=7025769&postcount=78

"In effect the code bases for both Lightwave and CORE have been merged into a single one.
Core in not being dumped at all.
What this means is that
CORE is being used from now on as the principal internal development stucture for Lightwave.
All future internal development of lightwave is now being done in CORE.

Lightwave will behave the same way you always have known it, but small portions of it codebase will be replaced... Old plug ins should continue to work as they have, but the advancements we saw in CORE, Bullet, its scene editor will become defactor part of Lightwave when they are ready.


And btw, this come straight from the Lightwave dev team."

I choose to believe: A)The Dev Team knows what they're doing; B)Didn't decide on this direction on a whim; and C)have the best interests of the LW community and it's users at heart, and they did this rather than make us wait longer for a final product.

achrystie
06-23-2011, 06:54 AM
My guess is that this is a purely revenue based decision.
Here's my idle speculation:
a) They advertised CORE and people bought in, but not as many as they wanted to.
b) They started working on CORE and once they realized that a lot of people weren't going to pay a constant subscription price to "beta" a product (alpha really), they worked on features for a LW 10 release to try to generate more revenue. Part of this was probably the realization that the time to rewrite would be "much" longer than expected.
c) When LW 10 released, it sold, but not as well as they had hoped, and therefore they can't support a long development cycle for a completely new product.
d) Business people sat down and it was decided that they needed to put new features in the existing product because that is the most likely way to generate a consistent revenue stream. People are more likely to pay for upgrades and new features for what they currently own, and since it's a complete product they can adjust the paid update cycle as needed to bring in cash.
e) The chasing new users idea hasn't worked out because they don't have a product to advertise effectively, and it's hard to compete with FREE apps, as well as firmly established industry apps, without a full product to show.

OnlineRender
06-23-2011, 06:57 AM
My guess is that this is a purely revenue based decision.
Here's my idle speculation:
a) They advertised CORE and people bought in, but not as many as they wanted to.
b) They started working on CORE and once they realized that a lot of people weren't going to pay a constant subscription price to "beta" a product (alpha really), they worked on features for a LW 10 release to try to generate more revenue. Part of this was probably the realization that the time to rewrite would be "much" longer than expected.
c) When LW 10 released, it sold, but not as well as they had hoped, and therefore they can't support a long development cycle for a completely new product.
d) Business people sat down and it was decided that they needed to put new features in the existing product because that is the most likely way to generate a consistent revenue stream. People are more likely to pay for upgrades and new features for what they currently own, and since it's a complete product they can adjust the paid update cycle as needed to bring in cash.
e) The chasing new users idea hasn't worked out because they don't have a product to advertise effectively, and it's hard to compete with FREE apps, as well as firmly established industry apps, without a full product to show.


:thumbsup:

caesar
06-23-2011, 07:12 AM
About point one, I would say two things:

1) That "old fashioned code" can be pushed a lot more than we can imagine. External plugins (FPrime, Turbulence, DP_Instance, IBounce and so on) clearly show this.

Isn't interesting that all this remarkable tools came NOT from NT engineers/devs?????

What is NT doing since 7.5 ????? Just buying plugins and incorporate into LW......

NT lost the trust of their costumers with broken promises.

NT will need a LW version with ALL the features from CORE AND Modeler to catch up now...

Who's willing to wait more 3-4 years when you can be proficient in another app in 1-2 years?

lardbros
06-23-2011, 07:17 AM
I've heard from many people that Newtek aren't short on a bit of cash, due to their TriCaster doing very, very, very well during the recent tough financial climate... soooo, I really wouldn't worry about Newtek going bust or going into liquidation... or stitching up their customers to get some revenue.

On a serious note... I honestly do think that they have actually made a mistake. A big mistake, but a mistake none-the-less, and I'm certain Jay knew this from the word go, but clearly couldn't go back on his choices. Rob has had the balls to tell us all that it's a big f*ck up and it's time to get back on track. I'm going to trust them once more, and if they don't deliver this time, I'll leave!

colkai
06-23-2011, 07:36 AM
I would say C++ is more intermediate but that's only because I read wiki the other day .....
:p Heh, yep, must admit, we're coding in framework C# dotNet these days.


It was developed by Bjarne Stroustrup starting in 1979 at Bell Labs as an enhancement to the C language and originally named C with Classes. It was renamed C++ in 1983.
Gawd, I recall reading his book way back when, I still remember the headache. ;)

Nemoid
06-23-2011, 07:38 AM
Ha ! Now Newtek
has finally unveiled their intentions since something like an year and an half : CORE has been abandoned since Rob came in.
The problem is: I find actually VERY difficult, giving to Lw another structure :single environment with shared tools, nodes everywhere, flexibility and power, like they at least promised with CORE.project .
Nt very probably add tools here and there, like VPR, but nothing will change so much underneath the surface of Lw, and the risk is Lw will survive for some year, but will get less and less adopted within the industry despite being a good software.
You can't have an app composed by 2 separate apps, now, in 2011 and expect to make it pass like a modern app when it isn't anymore...it seems to me Nt has lost its way.

gclayton
06-23-2011, 07:48 AM
Before there is any talk of Lightwave 11 and having to buy it, I want ALL the features I paid for when I bought into CORE!

I fully agree.

However, from the vague statements being made by Rob and Chuck in the HardCORE forum they seem to allude to the fact that the features currently in the LW 10.1 release will be all that we get without shelling out more cash for the LW 11 release.

With all the planning that has been going on at NewTek over the past 6 months, I can't understand why NewTek cannot explain whether there will be any other 10.x upgrades prior to LW 11!

Just more vague marketing speak on NewTek's part!

Matt
06-23-2011, 07:50 AM
Apart from the fact it was Newtek that stated that the old code had reached the end of it’s life, hence their argument for going with Core.

So why should we believe them (you) when they say the previous statement was completely false ?

The previously development manager stated this, who knows why, with code, technically _anything_ is possible. It's just a case of time vs technical difficulty.

So can the LW code be changed into something else? Yes, it can.

Matt
06-23-2011, 07:52 AM
Just saying that what the Lux guys mentioned 8-10 years ago can most likely be taken with a grain of salt....

Yes, and of course it's in their interest to say how old and broken LightWave code is, they want you to buy their app.

Just saying.

Matt
06-23-2011, 07:55 AM
With all the planning that has been going on at NewTek over the past 6 months, I can't understand why NewTek cannot explain whether there will be any other 10.x upgrades prior to LW 11!

Just more vague marketing speak on NewTek's part!

Not at all, we all know what happens when you promise too much before it is finished.

When the time is right I'm sure there will be more information showing what's on offer in LightWave 11.

But to do it too early, no way, not again, this is something NewTek have been criticised for by users in the past, we're taking that advice onboard.

Matt
06-23-2011, 07:56 AM
My guess is that this is a purely revenue based decision.

Absolutely not the case.

biliousfrog
06-23-2011, 07:59 AM
Rob has had the balls to tell us all that it's a big f*ck up and it's time to get back on track.

I can't remember ever reading a statement from him/them with an appology...As usual he/they have not admitted to doing anything wrong, they've just decided to do something different.

What generally happens is that he/they make an announcement that they've decided on a different/new/better direction which directly contradicts previous statements and when people respond negatively to it they come back with aggressive remarks about how much they've given the community and that we should all be grateful for what we have.

GandB
06-23-2011, 08:04 AM
Personally; after everything I've seen over that last few years, and taking into account how a lot of us feel for being left in the dark....unless we "pay to play" so to speak....I'm just going to wait till I see an actual product in LW11 before spending any more money.

Hopefully this time NT will be much more forthcoming and not segregate the Community, as the have done with the HC program. That's left a bitter taste in many people's mouth. Judging from the reaction of those that had to bite their tongues due to a non-signed NDA (from what I'm hearing), I think not laying down the money early on was a wise choice; and going off of that point, I can't see a reason to pre-fund NT in the future.

Laying the blame on previous management does little to ease the concerns of NT's customers....or reviewers. However; giving them the benefit of the doubt is about all we can do at this point, so I'm willing to stay tuned to what's in store for Lightwave. ;)

SBowie
06-23-2011, 09:02 AM
I can't remember ever reading a statement from him/them with an apology ... As usual he/they have not admitted to doing anything wrong, they've just decided to do something different. Mistakes have been made, with repercussions for both the individuals involved and the company. In the latter case, the repercussions will continue in some ways, and the only meaningful way to address them is to produce results, rather than talk about them. But this isn't the Dr, Phil show, or Wiener-gate, and some teary-eyed version of a Chinese self-criticism session isn't going to happen. In business, you take you lumps, fix the problems, and move forward.


I'm just going to wait till I see an actual product in LW11 before spending any more money.Eminently wise, and exactly what I would recommend.


Hopefully this time NT will be much more forthcoming and not segregate the Community, as the have done with the HC program.Despite a novel and seemingly promising plan, the end result of that was clearly divisive, and probably unnecessarily so. A large step toward rectifying it came about when the decision was taken (a distinct change, mind you) to include everyone who upgraded to 10 in the HC program. In the end, almost anyone with a real interest in using LW will wind up on the same page again.


However; giving them the benefit of the doubt is about all we can do at this point, so I'm willing to stay tuned to what's in store for Lightwave. ;)Thanks for being open-minded. The pressure is certainly on NewTek to show that this 'merging' of CORE and LW can be a fruitful marriage. I'm looking forward keenly to see what they show at SIGGRAPH as first hints of how that's going to work out.

littlewaves
06-23-2011, 09:12 AM
When the time is right I'm sure there will be more information showing what's on offer in LightWave 11.

The question was actually what more can we expect from LW10.x before LW11

I'm very worried by this talk of LW11.

You're only on 10.1

You;ve just bailed out of finishing 9.6.1 properly and now we're jumping straight to 11?

A few more point releases with some actual development should be the next target.

To be honest if that means buying up all the good current 3rd party stuff to give user's their money's worth then that's better than nothing I guess.

So glad I didn't buy 10 yet.

Promising too much is one thing but some indication of where lightwave is going (other than to LW11) and what people can possibly expect if they buy into LW10 now would probably reassure people a little.

You don't even have to be too specific. Just a hint of whether there are more major features (ie stuff we've not heard about and not stuff that was half baked for core and may or not make it into LW) coming in LW10.x

lardbros
06-23-2011, 09:12 AM
I can't remember ever reading a statement from him/them with an appology...As usual he/they have not admitted to doing anything wrong, they've just decided to do something different.

What generally happens is that he/they make an announcement that they've decided on a different/new/better direction which directly contradicts previous statements and when people respond negatively to it they come back with aggressive remarks about how much they've given the community and that we should all be grateful for what we have.

He did apologise in one of the other threads, but I think they should have made a public apology, but that's not Newtek now is it!? :D

I think for people using just LW this is probably a massive blow... but for me, Lightwave is my play-thing at home, and 3dsmax serves me okay at work. (Although do have a copy of Lightwave at work too, and i do use it for some things)

littlewaves
06-23-2011, 09:15 AM
I realised the way I've written my post above sounds a bit like I consider Matt to be the physical embodiment of Newtek.

Rather than rewrite the whole post allow me to clarify that when I say "you" I broadly mean Newtek and that I acknowledge that Matt has been one of the most helpful and creative people in the community and Newtek need more people like him.

CG Addict
06-23-2011, 09:23 AM
Is this new announcement the start of a new viral campaign? Where's my 3D glasses...

SBowie
06-23-2011, 09:35 AM
Promising too much is one thing but some indication of where lightwave is going (other than to LW11) and what people can possibly expect if they buy into LW10 now would probably reassure people a little.Nevertheless, the course of wisdom is to buy based on what you see. Expectations arrived at that way can hardly be wrong.

rcallicotte
06-23-2011, 09:44 AM
Agreed. This even logical.

What I especially like is that LW 10 has crashed only once on me in the 4 months I've owned this version, which is so unlike another unnamed brand I was using that crashed 4 times a night at least.

I don't expect fluff at all from Newtek.




From Roberto Ortiz over at CGSociety:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=7025769&postcount=78

"In effect the code bases for both Lightwave and CORE have been merged into a single one.
Core in not being dumped at all.
What this means is that
CORE is being used from now on as the principal internal development stucture for Lightwave.
All future internal development of lightwave is now being done in CORE.

Lightwave will behave the same way you always have known it, but small portions of it codebase will be replaced... Old plug ins should continue to work as they have, but the advancements we saw in CORE, Bullet, its scene editor will become defactor part of Lightwave when they are ready.


And btw, this come straight from the Lightwave dev team."

I choose to believe: A)The Dev Team knows what they're doing; B)Didn't decide on this direction on a whim; and C)have the best interests of the LW community and it's users at heart, and they did this rather than make us wait longer for a final product.

colkai
06-23-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm just going to wait till I see an actual product in LW11 before spending any more money.

Likewise, in the unlikely that I'll actually *have* some disposable income as and when the time comes. :p

littlewaves
06-23-2011, 10:07 AM
Nevertheless, the course of wisdom is to buy based on what you see. Expectations arrived at that way can hardly be wrong.

Yes of course but surely Newtek want people to buy lightwave?

I love using lightwave but I want to see improvement and some bang for my buck. I want LW10 to be good enough to justify upgrading.

I really don't get this whole "we don't care whether you buy it or not" thing.

Newtek NEEDS to keep existing users.

this all feels like the whole "we don't have any news for you" line we got fobbed off with for months in the 9.6.1 beta and we all know how that ended.

Is the next good news really LW11?

Please Newtek If you're too busy with your better selling products to put the effort into lightwave just refund everyone who bought core and open source the whole app. Third party developers have done by far and away the most impressive work for lightwave in recent years anyway

The fat lady has been warming up in the wings at the last chance saloon for what seems like a age now but someday soon she's bound to sing her song. Adapt or die Lightwave!

And if you're really not going to bother just shut the whole thing down and focus on your other apps so we can all go home

SBowie
06-23-2011, 10:41 AM
And if you're really not going to bother just shut the whole thing down and focus on your other apps so we can all go home


"Dear NewTek - please stop making promises and talking about features before the are a reality! It's really bad"

"Dear NewTek - please tell us what you are planning to do! I can't make a move unless I know the future"

Pick one. (I have).

Matt
06-23-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm very worried by this talk of LW11

We're always going to be working on future versions.

littlewaves
06-23-2011, 10:52 AM
"Dear NewTek - please stop making promises and talking about features before the are a reality! It's really bad"

"Dear NewTek - please tell us what you are planning to do! I can't make a move unless I know the future"

Pick one. (I have).

You're smart enough to know that a happy medium between these two would be the best option. I don't need a crystal ball just a signpost or two.

Trouble with core is they just made a feature list and pretended they'd already started working on it for "two years" when let's be frank they clearly hadn't. Another two and a half years passes and they decide they can't even make it out of alpha with next to nothing of the original promises implemented.

Sure they'll get some grief for parts of a roadmap that don't pan out but they'll also get plenty of customers who buy in and are relatively pleased when they get a fair few of the things on the list.

the big gripe about core etc is not that an "i" wasn't dotted or a "t" was't crossed. It's that basically almost nothing of what was promised actually happened.

littlewaves
06-23-2011, 10:54 AM
We're always going to be working on future versions.

sure but what about the rest of the 10 cycle?

SBowie
06-23-2011, 10:59 AM
You're smart enough to know that a happy medium between these two would be the best option.And you're smart enough to read between the lines.

Dexter2999
06-23-2011, 11:22 AM
Sorry if I offend anyone but I was a bit dubious of the CORE endeavor when I heard the words "Electric Image"

stevecullum
06-23-2011, 11:22 AM
The biggest thing that has prevented any significant development over the past few years, appears to me to be the result of changes at the top. This is a plea to Jim and Tim - please keep Rob around long enough to see his vision through - its essential now! The last thing we need is in a couple of years the management falling out and having to find someone else with yet another vision of Lightwave.

I also hope that given the amount of development time passed we see some of the changes fast. The film director I work for has said he wants to move to Maya for our next project, because the lack of UI speed, can't model in camera view - essential for projections, poor updates on the dynamics tools etc... etc... I don't want to drop LW as I love working in it, but I do understand his frustrations and fear we maybe turning to the 'dark side' in the near future... :help:

CG Addict
06-23-2011, 11:27 AM
This is a plea to Jim and Tim - please keep Rob around long enough to see his vision through - its essential now! The last thing we need is in a couple of years the management falling out and having to find someone else with yet another vision of Lightwave.

:agree:

SBowie
06-23-2011, 11:43 AM
I'm not that happy with the news, maybe because one of my favorite features about CORE was the "unified" application, I dont see that coming in the near future, but...
best wishes to Newtek, I will support them no matter what.
:thumbsup:Thanks for the kind wishes. Just to touch on your main point, the 'unified' LW was always some years off. The original CORE approach required a three-app suite (which no-one really wanted, for what must be obvious workflow and development reasons) for some indefinite period. That really hasn't changed, except now they don't need to bother getting the third app (CORE) presentable for public consumption. They can use it as they see fit for development, without bothering with the three-legged stool. The end result will still be a unified app.

pixelranger
06-23-2011, 11:49 AM
The end result will still be a unified app.

Steve: is this speculation on your part?

SBowie
06-23-2011, 11:57 AM
The problem is that they're just sticking with the band-aid approach which has caused them to fall behind.I was as much a CORE proponent as anyone, but the effort I've seen goes a long way beyond a band-aid (think adamantium). Regardless, this time around, no getting around it, it's going to be put up or shut up. I'm not much concerned about next week, or next month. I'd really like to see where we're at in twelve months.

SBowie
06-23-2011, 11:59 AM
Steve: is this speculation on your part?No.

MacDoggie
06-23-2011, 01:21 PM
The biggest thing that has prevented any significant development over the past few years, appears to me to be the result of changes at the top. This is a plea to Jim and Tim - please keep Rob around long enough to see his vision through - its essential now! The last thing we need is in a couple of years the management falling out and having to find someone else with yet another vision of Lightwave.

I also hope that given the amount of development time passed we see some of the changes fast. The film director I work for has said he wants to move to Maya for our next project, because the lack of UI speed, can't model in camera view - essential for projections, poor updates on the dynamics tools etc... etc... I don't want to drop LW as I love working in it, but I do understand his frustrations and fear we maybe turning to the 'dark side' in the near future... :help:

You do what you can and you do want you have to. I have resorted to Modelling in Modo. I haven't given up on LW as we still use it for animation (animation at this moment is not quite there in Modo). When NT stated that there wouldn't be any support for modeller I needed a solution as I needed to be able to deliver. Modo has proven to be an excellent solution. What stated out as a temporary solution has developed more and more into a permanent feature in our tool box. So I wait and hope for the best... Do I regret my time with NT?? absolutely not! They have been fantastic... But I do have to deliver and the tools I use have to be a certain quality. With LW Modeller, It is not so much the quality but the speed and the need for modern features, in essence, dire need of an overhaul. Not something I take a lot of pleasure saying. One more thing and I promise... no more. Luxology is NOT sitting still, they will eventually get their animation system in place the basic infrastructure is already for the most part there. They just need to add the advanced feature set and implementation and they are not that far away I would venture to guess. Hopefully NT will have something soon... just saying.

I agree with mr. bowie not much more to be said, so I will now bow out. Thank you for allowing me to have my say. I remain hopeful and will support NT as much as I can. However when it is time to make a decision I will have to choose the best tools for the job and I do hope when that time arrives that it will be Lightwave. If not well as I said, it WILL be the best tool for the job because we have to be able to deliver a quality product on time at the quality that the client has come to expect on that we can't deviate...

Peace out cheers mates

Chuck
06-23-2011, 01:26 PM
Steve: is this speculation on your part?

No, it isn't.

Emmanuel
06-23-2011, 02:14 PM
I dont wanna sound rude, but quite frankly: it is.With the way NewTek works since LW 7, it can change anytime again :/ Nobody can predict LW in the next 12 months.

archijam
06-23-2011, 02:33 PM
I'd like to say:

Hooray for 100% development energy back into LW.

CORE could have eventually evolved into something great, but only ever at half pace, as the rest of us need an evolving LW in the meantime.

... and then:

Can we expect a forward-looking statement about the future plans for LW, as was expressed for CORE ?

All I deciphered from this announcement was 'there will be more CORE tech'. This seems unnecessarily vague.

Thanks!

SBowie
06-23-2011, 02:33 PM
I dont wanna sound rude, but quite frankly: it is.With the way NewTek works since LW 7, it can change anytime again :/ Nobody can predict LW in the next 12 months.Not rude, quite frankly deserved. That said, the good thing is this means it can change for the better, too.

Emmanuel
06-23-2011, 02:41 PM
Nobody can deny that, of course :)
In my heart, as a LW veteran since the mid-90s, I just wished NT would finally take a turn for the better and release a LW with a stable, functionning hair tool, and a radically modernised and enhanced modeler (instances, history, working CC subdivs) and little stuff like modeling in Layout or modeling in camera view.Oh, and normal mapping preview in OpenGL.That
is my very short wishlist, the rest in pretty usable and easy to work with already.And I have been waiting for these small enhancements since probably 5 or 6 years now.
I dunno if NT really cares about it, but some of us have already given up on LW mentally because a lot of marketing stuff was given the priority over substantial workflow enhancements (could have lived without nodes for a few more versions).

zarti
06-23-2011, 02:42 PM
@forum moderators ;


.. subtle , but a very nice ' touch ' . very professional !

Albin3DKlein
06-23-2011, 02:56 PM
I rather like this that the whole new package and start again to learn the hell out of it...

CG Addict
06-23-2011, 03:07 PM
No, it isn't.

I prefer to see it as just one snore shy of a dream at this point. I'm sure these guys at NT are as disappointed as we are perhaps... so let's have a wait and see a few months down the line.

Ulven
06-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Not too surprised, but it's definitely a pretty big decision for Newtek. Hope Rob is doing ok, I met him and he's a nice chap. It must not have been easy to make this decision, as they effectively have to give up on two and a half years of development and just look at what they can salvage. I think Jay was let go at some point as his vision wasn't merging too well with Newtek's, but it wasn't a bad vision in itself. Rob has a pretty practical approach and draws from his own experience, which is cool enough, but I think Jay's ideas were more futuristic on a whole. I think the ideal for Newtek would be to have someone like Jay AND someone like Rob working in conjunction to figure out both what they need AND what would be worth while spending time in for teh future.
They used to have the latter and now they have the former, and they've been unable to join the two.
Having used messiah for a long time, I don't mind too much as layout has been deprecated for a me for a long time anyway. I still think it's a bit sad when developments turn like this though. I appreciate that a tough decision had to be made.

SBowie
06-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Not too surprised, but it's definitely a pretty big decision for Newtek. The only thing I want to mention is that it isn't strictly true that the dev time is lost. The great bulk of work on CORE remains useful moving forward.

caesar
06-23-2011, 05:38 PM
Not too surprised, but it's definitely a pretty big decision for Newtek. Hope Rob is doing ok, I met him and he's a nice chap. It must not have been easy to make this decision, as they effectively have to give up on two and a half years of development and just look at what they can salvage. I think Jay was let go at some point as his vision wasn't merging too well with Newtek's, but it wasn't a bad vision in itself. Rob has a pretty practical approach and draws from his own experience, which is cool enough, but I think Jay's ideas were more futuristic on a whole. I think the ideal for Newtek would be to have someone like Jay AND someone like Rob working in conjunction to figure out both what they need AND what would be worth while spending time in for teh future.
They used to have the latter and now they have the former, and they've been unable to join the two.
Having used messiah for a long time, I don't mind too much as layout has been deprecated for a me for a long time anyway. I still think it's a bit sad when developments turn like this though. I appreciate that a tough decision had to be made.

Exactly. The Rob's experience in Avatar/Tin Tin is invaluable to NT, but I really liked the way Jay went through the whole v9 series while working CORE at the same time, pretty amazing to me.
it would be great to have both working together. Anyway, let's move on....

SBowie
06-23-2011, 05:44 PM
Anyway, let's move on....Yes please. We do not want to get into any discussion of personalities here - thanks.

EmperorPete
06-23-2011, 05:50 PM
Well. I guess I'll be sitting out LW10 unless something utterly bowel-shatteringly awesome gets added that tempts me back in. After the 9.6.1 debacle I refuse outright to buy into any form of announcements until I see hard PROOF along with them.
I hope things DO go right, and CORE gets properly integrated into LW and blows our minds with the results. Until then, though, I'll be plugging away in 9.6.1 and reading up on how it's done in other 3D programs.

robertoortiz
06-23-2011, 05:51 PM
The only thing I want to mention is that it isn't strictly true that the dev time is lost. The great bulk of work on CORE remains useful moving forward.

And that is a big deal.
that means that all that testing and debugging done in the CORE forums was not lost.

Hominid 3D
06-23-2011, 06:01 PM
This is not something I can talk about, not now and not me for sure. :)

You should finally finish those tutorials promised by Newtek a year ago, anyway.

;-)

realgray
06-23-2011, 06:01 PM
@Emmanuel

"Oh, and normal mapping preview in OpenGL.That
is my very short wishlist,"

Hold CTRL+Shift then press F1 to enable experimental features. Then plug the normal map into bump channel to see it in Opengl.

SBowie
06-23-2011, 06:29 PM
You should finally finish those tutorials promised by Newtek a year ago, anyway.Lino's work was done quite awhile ago. The holdup, which is certainly annoying to all, has nothing to do with him, or frankly, the 3D Division.

caesar
06-23-2011, 07:26 PM
:devil:
Lino's work was done quite awhile ago. The holdup, which is certainly annoying to all, has nothing to do with him, or frankly, the 3D Division.

My goodness...an AD spy inside NT ?????? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407887/

SBowie
06-23-2011, 07:48 PM
And yet.... we can never get a straight HONEST answer as to why it is delayed.That is a bit weird, but Rob said today it should be very soon - I think he said a few days, but anyway, it's a bit OT here.

Hominid 3D
06-23-2011, 07:54 PM
Lino's work was done quite awhile ago. The holdup, which is certainly annoying to all, has nothing to do with him, or frankly, the 3D Division.

Let me guess, Jay took the master with him?

LOL, jk

realgray
06-23-2011, 08:25 PM
I think most users would have appreciated a simple digital download similar to what many of us (including myself) have done with Rebel Hill's rigging tuts.

SBowie
06-23-2011, 08:34 PM
I agree. Seems like that would have been a plan. We're OT here, though, and there are a couple other threads on the topic, so ... if y'all don't mind.

sammael
06-23-2011, 09:22 PM
No, it isn't.

Thank you Chuck this was not actually clear in any statement/dev post thus far. Nice to know for sure that this is still a priority.

SERHELL
06-23-2011, 10:39 PM
this news disappoints me, it's frustrating ... I am a rat that I will continue on this ship. NewTek's word no longer has any value ...

sorry my english

roboman
06-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Just my 2 cents. NewTek has always been a bit odd and even frustrating at times. But Lightwave is the animation software I keep coming back to. They do what ever they do and the result is software I really like. I would rather they go with what they feel will work then draw a hard line and try to force things to meet an early talked about idea....

rcallicotte
06-24-2011, 05:38 AM
Maybe you haven't read this in this thread, but Newtek's word is better than anyone has seen yet - "The end result will still be a unified app."

In other words, please wait to see what happens, based upon good indications from people on the inside.



this news disappoints me, it's frustrating ... I am a rat that I will continue on this ship. NewTek's word no longer has any value ...

sorry my english

rcallicotte
06-24-2011, 05:50 AM
Double post / computer lockup.

-EsHrA-
06-24-2011, 05:51 AM
u kidding right?
newtek's word is what is being questioned.
work is needed on getting trust again.

mlon

cresshead
06-24-2011, 06:26 AM
i'm currently considering all other options for now and just let Newtek get on and come back and see what they deliver in say a year at which time i can re evaluate the situation.

OnlineRender
06-24-2011, 06:32 AM
Keep your ears on the ground there maybe something happening soon that may shift a lot from lw ....... nt goodluck

lardbros
06-24-2011, 06:40 AM
Yeah, think Newtek need to be a bit careful! I feel Lux is brewing something!

I have a feeling Newtek's thought process is:

"if we have some great software improvements in the future, people will come to use it"

Which is all well and good, but when you do this to people they won't forget! This is why good customer relations will help. If you treat people kindly, they will be kind back! Simples!

This may just be the greatest exodus of Lightwave followers there has been for a while. I'll just sit here and wait for them to come back! :)

safetyman
06-24-2011, 06:54 AM
Keep your ears on the ground there maybe something happening soon that may shift a lot from lw ....... nt goodluck

Allright I'll bite: What's going to happen? Don't drop that out there and leave me hangin'...

rcallicotte
06-24-2011, 06:54 AM
I'm sorry people are hurting. A good perspective could be it's only software and there are hundreds, even thousands of things we can do to think about something else.

In the meantime, let's see what happens and hopefully it means Lightwave coolness.

If you can't do that, then I'm sorry. Life could be better for you. I'm personally excited about the news because it means something is happening rather than nothing. And to me it looks brilliant.

zarti
06-24-2011, 06:57 AM
Keep your ears on the ground there maybe something happening soon that may shift a lot from lw ....... nt goodluck

@ the 4000th of your posts ; tell us . what's that ?



=)

rcallicotte
06-24-2011, 06:57 AM
We had someone or two or more people from the inside say things are moving toward the basic same direction as before, but it looks like it's even a better idea for the end users who won't be plagued by constant cursing about CORE being crap.

Now we'll see it in updates from what we're hearing.


Allright I'll bite: What's going to happen? Don't drop that out there and leave me hangin'...

Phrog
06-24-2011, 07:09 AM
Maybe you haven't read this in this thread, but Newtek's word is better than anyone has seen yet - "The end result will still be a unified app."

In other words, please wait to see what happens, based upon good indications from people on the inside.

The problem is that we have been waiting literally years only to find that we are somewhat back at square one. I am getting really tired of waiting and the promises have been thick over the years with little follow through! I think Newtek needs to put out a special edition newsletter to FULLY explain what is going on. Where is Lightwave headed, where it is right now and be truthful and realistic. Full disclosure newtek please.
Maybe Newtek should buy MODO/Luxology! I know, too much bad blood but maybe ...
Oh, and stop the price increase on july 31st - that's just gonna tick off everyone!

motivalex
06-24-2011, 07:19 AM
We had someone or two or more people from the inside say things are moving toward the basic same direction as before, but it looks like it's even a better idea for the end users who won't be plagued by constant cursing about CORE being crap.

Now we'll see it in updates from what we're hearing.

I think Newtek have a lot to do to gain the trust back from some users. They need to show and get into the users hands a LW update that shows great promise ASAP. We need to see the evidence. Start delivering modelling in Layout, instancing, animated extruding etc etc.

I am happy I played the wait and see approach and did not buy into Core. I want LW to succeed and those promised features brought into reality. I am not going to upgrade unless I see a proper forward looking update to LW.

Meanwhile Cinema4d is looking good and Modo looks interesting. :devil:

SBowie
06-24-2011, 07:25 AM
I think Newtek have a lot to do to gain the trust back from some users.So does everyone else. It's obvious.

motivalex
06-24-2011, 07:44 AM
So does everyone else. It's obvious.

I would hope so.

colkai
06-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Maybe you haven't read this in this thread, but Newtek's word is better than anyone has seen yet - "The end result will still be a unified app."
In other words, please wait to see what happens, based upon good indications from people on the inside.

Indeed, end result, that's what matters, along with, naturally, when that end result finally appears. End result in 12 months - impressive, end result in 6 years, not so much.

Matt
06-24-2011, 11:03 AM
Yeah, think Newtek need to be a bit careful! I feel Lux is brewing something!

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise that Lux are capilatising on any bad feelings about this, we already know they are contacting people some of our users.

Not very sporting, but hey, it's business, and in this climate everyone needs as many users as they can get.

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 11:13 AM
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise that Lux are capilatising on any bad feelings about this, we already know they are contacting people some of our users.

Not very sporting, but hey, it's business, and in this climate everyone needs as many users as they can get.The only thing I've seen from Lux about "reaching out" is on their site. You can't blame them for capitalizing on unhappy LW customers, produced by NT, on their own boards can you? I wouldn't call that unsporting.

Ultimately, there are still some things that LW can do that modo just still cannot Hence the reason why I'm sure you had/have a lic. of both.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 11:21 AM
I wouldn't call that unsporting.Good clean fun, right? It's business, many would do the same.

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 11:23 AM
Good clean fun, right? It's business, many would do the same.I'm just saying, it's not like they've posted something on these boards. That would be a different story. ;)

jasonwestmas
06-24-2011, 11:24 AM
Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel with a shot gun. Not sure that's a sport. Just kidding.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 11:27 AM
I'm just saying, it's not like they've posted something on these boards. That would be a different story. ;)Aye, moving on ...

dballesg
06-24-2011, 11:34 AM
Aye, moving on ...

A sheriff would use something like "people nothing to see here, please move on. Oi, you the press guy don't cross the yellow tape" :D

SBowie
06-24-2011, 11:37 AM
A sheriff would use something like "people nothing to see here, please move on. Some sheriffs like to invite co-operation, rather than demand it ... until courtesy fails.

jasonwestmas
06-24-2011, 12:29 PM
hahaha, I'll throw in some Zbrush and 3Dcoat while were at it.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 12:35 PM
Courtesy (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1156932&postcount=178) failed. We return you now to your regular programming.

dballesg
06-24-2011, 12:52 PM
Some sheriffs like to invite co-operation, rather than demand it ... until courtesy fails.

I was only trying to cheer you up!!! :o

SBowie
06-24-2011, 01:04 PM
I was only trying to cheer you up!!! :oOh, no worries, thanks. All good.


And I think NT has waivered most of their rights ...I think you meant to type "waived", but this tangent is over in any case. It is neither appropriate to criticize nor praise another developer here, and posts on the topic may 'evaporate' without notice. (If some think that's one-sided, notice that it has been applied to posts from staff as well as others.)

OnlineRender
06-24-2011, 02:00 PM
Remember people said you wouldn't get. tricaster in hd.....

Matt
06-24-2011, 02:12 PM
Oh, no worries, thanks. All good.

I think you meant to type "waived", but this tangent is over in any case. It is neither appropriate to criticize nor praise another developer here, and posts on the topic may 'evaporate' without notice. (If some think that's one-sided, notice that it has been applied to posts from staff as well as others.)

Yeah sorry Steve, I was hoping any discussion would have been sensible, clearly not.

My bad.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 02:18 PM
Yeah sorry Steve, I was hoping any discussion would have been sensible, clearly not.Not scolding anyone, and no-one minds a passing innocent remark, but really, if we are going to be fair, neither praise nor criticism (nor certainly, promotion) of products that compete in some way with NewTek is appropriate here. And, for anyone that was keeping score, both types were dealt with, and a small fairly evenly balance smattering was left for context only.

zarti
06-24-2011, 03:19 PM
a - ha !

so the stereoscopic edition is coming ? ..

hrgiger
06-24-2011, 03:52 PM
Well being that I've been a strong supporter of CORE, or at least the ideas and concepts that CORE represented, I certainly wish Newtek the best of luck in this endeavor of continuing to evolve LightWave as we know it. Admittedly, it is a bold move on Rob's part to have to come out and admit that the path they were on may have been the wrong one knowing how angry a lot of people would be. I should know, I was one of them.

But given some time to mull things over, I can't say that I'm all that upset at this point. Sure, I'm disappointed that we wont' get to see CORE evolve. The idea of seeing an application grow from the ground up is an intruiging idea I enjoyed seeing CORE grow. Even though I took a fair amount of programming in college, I've never worked as software engineer or project manager and so I have to trust that Rob and team have made the best and most informed decision about the most effective way to move forward with LightWave.

I used to believe that having a seperated modeler and Layout was the best approach. But given the time I've put into LightWave and other applications, I know now without a doubt that a unified application offers the most advantages. So given that Newtek has told us that the end result or end goal has not changed with the goals laid out for CORE, then I'm satisfied. As of now, I won't be asked to pay again until LightWave 11 is ready to ship. I am hoping to start seeing some results towards this current effort before or by that point.

EmperorPete
06-24-2011, 04:05 PM
Maybe you haven't read this in this thread, but Newtek's word is better than anyone has seen yet - "The end result will still be a unified app."
In other words, please wait to see what happens, based upon good indications from people on the inside.
The question is - which version of Lightwave will it be? 11? 12? I don't much fancy shelling out for each version on the offchance that it might be the program I was initially promised.

leroy3rd
06-24-2011, 05:00 PM
I don't see this as particularly problematic... They won't sway the die-hards, and it gives those who would have left anyway a little push in Lux's direction. For people like me who are on the fence, it does make the decision of staying or not a LOT harder. A lot of their new tools look pretty tasty... But I still can't decide... I'll need to see if there's anything past 10.1in the 10.x cycle.

-LeRoy3rd

sandman300
06-24-2011, 05:28 PM
God save the queen!

And redeem her for cash and valuable prizes.:lol::neener::king:

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 05:50 PM
Something about this whole CORE development crumbling thing doesn't feel right. Has NT actually stated why they decided to switch ships in midstream? Nope, they just decided to do it. I think there should more openness about this to all Lightwavers. I've been a Lightwaver since '97 and appreciate it as much as the next guy but to say "we've decided to change course"? That's it?

To say it would take a few more months or years, that's what the timeframe would be for implementing CORE into LW would be anyway. Doesn't make any sense...

:question:

Cageman
06-24-2011, 06:13 PM
To say it would take a few more months or years, that's what the timeframe would be for implementing CORE into LW would be anyway. Doesn't make any sense...

:question:

I believe it is more related to being able to give users incremental updates of the software vs going dark for x years.

Dexter2999
06-24-2011, 06:14 PM
To say it would take a few more months or years, that's what the timeframe would be for implementing CORE into LW would be anyway. Doesn't make any sense...

:question:

Actually, it does make sense. If you had a choice between implementing the advancements in a new application that you would have to figure out how to market and make it compatible with the existing software OR just porting the technology into the existing software, and they both take the same amount of time, which would you do? Which do you think makes better business sense? Which do you think would appeal the most to your existing user base? Which would you be able to market fastest to get more income for your company?

It makes sense on many levels. I don't think it was the popular decision but it was the right decision.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 06:23 PM
Something about this whole CORE development crumbling thing doesn't feel right. Has NT actually stated why they decided to switch ships in midstream?No doubt it's a dark conspiracy involving secret government agencies, Bill Gates, aliens, and the Illuminati.

Or possibly ... it is simply that they found that revising the original plan was a better plan. Perhaps too, a more in-depth discussion of the rationale has been shared with LW10 users, who are those more entitled to an explanation, whereas the general public got a rather simpler marketing blurb. But this is all just speculation. My money is on the aliens.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 06:28 PM
No doubt it's a dark conspiracy involving secret government agencies, Bill Gates, aliens, and the Illuminati.

Or possibly ... it is simply that they found that revising the original plan was a better plan. Perhaps too, a more in-depth discussion of the rationale has been shared with LW10 users, who are those more entitled to an explanation, whereas the general public got a rather simpler marketing blurb. But this is all just speculation. My money is on the aliens.

And there you have it... another fine example of how NT deals with a customer who asks a valid question. Thanks SBowie... consistency at it's finest.

"Mock A Customer" day it must be.:screwy:

SBowie
06-24-2011, 06:35 PM
No sense of humour, I guess. On another note, it would be helpful if people would take a hint and stop posting about Modo, whether pro or con. This would save me deleting the posts, which would be appreciated.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 06:39 PM
Actually, it does make sense. If you had a choice between implementing the advancements in a new application that you would have to figure out how to market and make it compatible with the existing software OR just porting the technology into the existing software, and they both take the same amount of time, which would you do? Which do you think makes better business sense? Which do you think would appeal the most to your existing user base? Which would you be able to market fastest to get more income for your company?

It makes sense on many levels. I don't think it was the popular decision but it was the right decision.

I think what makes sense is doing what you told all of your customers you were going do. Remember, this isn't mild shift in product, there was a major presentation followed by a membership program, followed by on-going video releases, etc... NT has a fine product in LW, but that isn't what this is about. How do you trust a company that does a complete 180 switch this late in the game. What, next week or next year they say they made a mistake and are now back on CORE? This isn't the first example of NT presenting a major road map and backing out of it.

leroy3rd
06-24-2011, 06:42 PM
... it would be helpful if people would take a hint and stop posting about Modo, whether pro or con. This would save me deleting the posts, which would be appreciated.

Sorry about that, I was trying to stay on the appropriate side of the line, veered a bit off course. :-D I'm done now.

-LeRoy3rd

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 06:43 PM
No sense of humour, I guess. On another note, it would be helpful if people would take a hint and stop posting about Modo, whether pro or con. This would save me deleting the posts, which would be appreciated.

I've got a sense of humor, every LW user's got a sense of humor right now... wink. There was no humor in my question, so likewise I expected some effort at the very least in an answer.

Agreed on the Modo postings...

SBowie
06-24-2011, 06:52 PM
There was no humor in my question, so likewise I expected some effort at the very least in an answer.If you read my reply, there's actually one given. As time goes along, others may take time to explain abit, but I'm typing on my phone and it's a bit of a pain. Apart from that, read your post carefully, and ask yourself if it doesn't seem just slightly insulting.

Matt
06-24-2011, 06:54 PM
How do you trust a company that does a complete 180 switch this late in the game.

If the plan was to drop CORE completely and delete all the code and never integrate it into LightWave, then it would be a complete 180. However, that is not the plan. Rob has stated in his announcement, and several other employees, including one of the key developers that the plan is to integrate the technology and ideals of CORE into LightWave.

While this I agree is a change in plan, it is not a complete 180, as it should be about the technology and features, not the delivery vehicle.

We can completely understand the feelings many have expressed, and we were bracing ourselves quite rightly for it.

But let's not forget the fact that what CORE is offering is not going away.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 06:57 PM
If you read my reply, there's actually one given. As time goes along, others may take time to explain abit, but I'm typing on my phone and it's a bit of a pain. Apart from that, read your post carefully, and ask yourself if it doesn't seem just slightly insulting.

I hear you about the typing issues on a phone. No insult was implied, I like many other users would like to hear a genuine reason as to why such a drastic turn of events. I think this move deserves more than "we decided to change course."

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 07:02 PM
If the plan was to drop CORE completely and delete all the code and never integrate it into LightWave, then it would be a complete 180. However, that is not the plan. Rob has stated in his announcement, and several other employees, including one of the key developers that the plan is to integrate the technology and ideals of CORE into LightWave.

While this I agree is a change in plan, it is not a complete 180, as it should be about the technology and features, not the delivery vehicle.

We can completely understand the feelings many have expressed, and we were bracing ourselves quite rightly for it.

But let's not forget the fact that what CORE is offering is not going away.

I get it Matt, the only glaring problem here is that like NT themselves said way back when, LW has run it's course (old code), and trying to glue on parts (core) to an old horse... well we all know what happens to the horse at the end of the day.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 07:04 PM
Which for some strange reason sends my mind off on an "alien" tangent. Does anyone know who is doing the effects for TNT's Falling Skies series?

I don't know who and I think they want it that way. The whole thing was terrible, effects and all.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:05 PM
I get it Matt, the only glaring problem here is that like NT themselves said way back when, LW has run it's course (old code), and trying to glue on parts (core) to an old horse... well we all know what happens to the horse at the end of the day.

Let's be quite frank here, Jay said that, not us, he also said VPR in Layout was impossible, we proved that not to be the case. So I think a grain of salt could be applied here.

Also, the plan is not to "glue on" parts of CORE, but have CORE _replace_ systems in LightWave.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 07:06 PM
I hear you about the typing issues on a phone. No insult was implied, I like many other users would like to hear a genuine reason as to why such a drastic turn of events. I think this move deserves more than "we decided to change course."Ok, it's been a long week, let's grab a beer and start again tomorrow... (heads for fridge).

Elmar Moelzer
06-24-2011, 07:07 PM
I get it Matt, the only glaring problem here is that like NT themselves said way back when, LW has run it's course (old code), and trying to glue on parts (core) to an old horse... well we all know what happens to the horse at the end of the day.
The plan is not to glue on stuff, but to replace the old stuff with new stuff.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:07 PM
Also, there are things in the pipeline that people said was not possible in LightWave. Can't say any more than that right now I'm afraid.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:08 PM
The plan is not to glue on stuff, but to replace the old stuff with new stuff.

LOL, you must have been typing that when I was!

SBowie
06-24-2011, 07:10 PM
From what little I know it seems as we might have to pay extra for it though...By the end, who could say. The old plan was dragging on endlessly, and the time when it might have been brought to completion, and in how many versions, was always a complete unknown ... so there's no way to really make a judgment one way or the other, save for purely subjective guesswork.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 07:12 PM
He did sail under the same flag that you do.... :newtek: ....for me that is the same mouth speaking.I hardly ever agree with you on anything, Veehoy, but you're right about that. Whoever said it, it was on behalf of NewTek, and as time went along, it proved to be overstated, and has been proven to be so. Now, having said that, I will not tolerate any further discussion of the personalities involved, so prepare for your post to vanish if you do so - anyone.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 07:15 PM
Let's be quite frank here, Jay said that, not us, he also said VPR in Layout was impossible, we proved that not to be the case. So I think a grain of salt could be applied here.

Also, the plan is not to "glue on" parts of CORE, but have CORE _replace_ systems in LightWave.

Thanks for the frankness Matt. As to LW morphing into CORE, I do remember someone with NT and I won't mention names, mention that overhauling LW was going to be a major pain the in arse, if not next to impossible. And for that reason that's why this whole CORE thing happened in the first place. So yes, this is a major 180 turn if I ever saw one.

Matt
06-24-2011, 07:17 PM
So yes, this is a major 180 turn if I ever saw one.

We'll have to agree to disagree there then.

SBowie
06-24-2011, 07:19 PM
You guys are interfering with my beer. That's a serious offense.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 07:20 PM
You guys are interfering with my beer. That's a serious offense.

Ok, we'll stop there... enjoy your weekend.

jasonwestmas
06-24-2011, 07:23 PM
He did sail under the same flag that you do.... :newtek: ....for me that is the same mouth speaking.

Sounded like Rob denounced a lot of what the original management was saying if you ask me.

Titus
06-24-2011, 07:26 PM
How do I missed 15 pages of conversation? this has been one of the fastest growing threads in years.

So, do I keep my dongle? :devil:

P.S. I'm having a rough time in the editing room, and trying to return to SpeedEdit because Premiere crashes badly with this project.

Elmar Moelzer
06-24-2011, 07:28 PM
Sounded like Rob denounced a lot of what the original management was saying if you ask me.
He is not allone with that. I completely support his take on this as well.
Not that it matters what I think.

hrgiger
06-24-2011, 07:28 PM
How do I missed 15 pages of conversation? this has been one of the fastest growing threads in years.



The one in the hardcore forum from the original announcement makes this thread look like a text message.

hrgiger
06-24-2011, 07:29 PM
Not that it matters what I think.

True. You've made it abundantly clear.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 07:35 PM
The one in the hardcore forum from the original announcement makes this thread look like a text message.

Well, now that CORE is history as it was packaged, the HC membership thing should be disbanded, the doors opened wide so that all of us future potential buys of LW11, and that's pretty much anyone that user LW, should now be able to read what's on the horizon for all of us.

hrgiger
06-24-2011, 07:41 PM
Well, now that CORE is history as it was packaged, the HC membership thing should be disbanded, the doors opened wide so that all of us future potential buys of LW11, and that's pretty much anyone that user LW, should now be able to read what's on the horizon for all of us.

It's really not much different then the LW9 open beta which gave access to those who had upgraded to LW9.

Although that begs a question-
The hardcore program I thought was supposed to be open until CORE shipped and then it was to be closed to new members. Now that CORE is not going to be a shipping product anymore, how will that affect it?

Hominid 3D
06-24-2011, 07:47 PM
...the plan is to integrate the technology and ideals of CORE into LightWave....


So, could we commoners without access to the HC forum get a simple to grasp explanation (from one of the actual programmers) what that actually means? :help:

Nicolas Jordan
06-24-2011, 07:49 PM
I'm still not entirely happy with this change, but I will now wait and see what happens. I think that my biggest concern is getting far less in the 10.x series than was promised with CORE and then having to pay for v11. So... waiting and seeing...

I think as 10.x owners we should get to test and try out LW11 when it's in beta before having to commit to it and then have the chance to upgrade to it before release if we like what we see.

Elmar Moelzer
06-24-2011, 07:51 PM
True. You've made it abundantly clear.
You too, actually.

Nicolas Jordan
06-24-2011, 07:58 PM
It's really not much different then the LW9 open beta which gave access to those who had upgraded to LW9.


I really enjoyed those 9.x open beta days! I really hope we get to go back to a similar model for beta testing. :)

VonBon
06-24-2011, 08:01 PM
As much of a severe critic (okay, outright anger) I've had towards Newtek about this, after carefully (and calmly) reviewing what Newtek (aka, Matt, Lino, Steve, Deep Purple, Rob) have said, IMO it really isn't a 180 degree turn. I see if more as a shift over to another parallel roadway.

:devil: welcome back to the DarkSide

SBowie
06-24-2011, 08:01 PM
The one in the hardcore forum from the original announcement makes this thread look like a text message.:)

probiner
06-24-2011, 08:16 PM
I get it Matt, the only glaring problem here is that like NT themselves said way back when, LW has run it's course (old code), and trying to glue on parts (core) to an old horse... well we all know what happens to the horse at the end of the day.

Translating (i guess):
If you had the strong belief and will to abandon an established app in decline (competition) to code a new one that would allow to do things that the old couldn't be fixed into, how can one face now your belief that you will accomplish all that (CORE architecture, not individual features) along with the old architecture?

And this is what is not clear:
- What were the brick-walls you found in CORE development that made you lose your faith in the "everything is made new/we can now fix the unfixable" approach? Is the CORE architecture to good to be done?
- What of the CORE vision will remain as a goal for this new approach (unified app, everything can be referenced/animated, fully accessible SDK, multi-referenced scene, modifier stack, etc). So, CORE was not dropped, is part of LW, like a cyborg. But what concepts of the robot will go through in the cyborg? Have any of them changed are they still a goal?
CORE Features Doc (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/lightWave_3D_with_CORE_technology_Features_Documen t.pdf)


I do understand that you feel the need for privacy and prudence, as HC supposedly was too, but do understand that those are unanswered questions in this Update, and an answer along with something like "CORE is not for everyone" it's not the same here and the more you can state and explain, the more confident and acknowledge people would feel.

Anyway LW10 was one answer and I bet LW10.x or LW11 will also be, better than forum chat. You probably now know much better the actual limitations of LW as is. Best wishes. It does take vision and courage to deal with this stuff and frankly I wish you strength to get out of this successfully and at peace.

Cheers

SBowie
06-24-2011, 08:17 PM
Well, now that CORE is history as it was packaged, the HC membership thing should be disbanded, the doors opened wide so that all of us future potential buys of LW11,It seems to me that existing members, who paid for their privileges, are not likely quite as eager to relinquish them. However, that said ...


... and that's pretty much anyone that user LW, should now be able to read what's on the horizon for all of us.In the main, apart from beta access (which was always, at the very least, tied to already already owning the most recent release version), any information they've had has basically been a preview of what was shortly afterward made public.

I would not expect the HC forum archives to be thrown wide open, possibly ever. But it is certainly desirable for everyone to get back onto the same page. (That actually happened already to a great degree actually, as a result of the decision to extend HC membership to all who upgraded to 10).

SBowie
06-24-2011, 08:21 PM
I do understand that you feel the need for privacy and prudence, as HC supposedly was too, but do understand that those are unanswered questions in this UpdateActually, no - if you read carefully, to a reasonable extent it was answered, though perhaps it's gone somewhat unnoticed among all of the subsequent comments.

To wit: "The overall goal for the functionality and features that we all want has not changed—only the product and method in which we will deliver them is changing."

Dexter2999
06-24-2011, 08:24 PM
I think what makes sense is doing what you told all of your customers you were going do. Remember, this isn't mild shift in product, there was a major presentation followed by a membership program, followed by on-going video releases, etc... NT has a fine product in LW, but that isn't what this is about. How do you trust a company that does a complete 180 switch this late in the game. What, next week or next year they say they made a mistake and are now back on CORE? This isn't the first example of NT presenting a major road map and backing out of it.

I didn't say I trust them. What I said was that they made a solid business move. I understand why they did what they did even if I don't agree with it. It isn't my business to run. It isn't my decision to make. It certainly isn't the most popular decision. As with most decisions there is an upside and downside to it. They were faced with a difficult business decision and they chose the path that they deemed most likely to succeed.

As for trust? Well, I think they have pretty much burned their bridges as far as any future pre-sale endeavours go, unless they completely cut their own throats (price wise.)

SBowie
06-24-2011, 08:27 PM
I think they have pretty much burned their bridges as far as any future pre-sale endeavours goNever mind burnt bridges. "Pre-sale" is a four-letter word. Anyone on staff who utters it will be burnt at the stake.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 09:02 PM
I would not expect the HC forum archives to be thrown wide open, possibly ever. But it is certainly desirable for everyone to get back onto the same page. (That actually happened already to a great degree actually, as a result of the decision to extend HC membership to all who upgraded to 10).

Fair enough... do you or can you give us any expectation that NT might revisit the entire CORE HC deal and modify it to fit the new face of development. I think at the very least it would go miles in reuniting the LW community the new singular goal of rebuilding LW.

CG Addict
06-24-2011, 09:16 PM
I didn't say I trust them. What I said was that they made a solid business move. I understand why they did what they did even if I don't agree with it. It isn't my business to run. It isn't my decision to make. It certainly isn't the most popular decision. As with most decisions there is an upside and downside to it. They were faced with a difficult business decision and they chose the path that they deemed most likely to succeed.

As for trust? Well, I think they have pretty much burned their bridges as far as any future pre-sale endeavours go, unless they completely cut their own throats (price wise.)

You really believe that the "bait and switch" method is a solid business model?

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 09:44 PM
As much of a severe critic (okay, outright anger) I've had towards Newtek about this, after carefully (and calmly) reviewing what Newtek (aka, Matt, Lino, Steve, Deep Purple, Rob) have said, IMO it really isn't a 180 degree turn. I see if more as a shift over to another parallel roadway. The question - again IMO - is if this road is smoother or allot more bumpy than the one originally chosen. I think that the destination/goal is ROUGHLY the same, but getting there will be FEEL quite a bit different. I don't know if it's better or worse.

I'm still not entirely happy with this change, but I will now wait and see what happens. I think that my biggest concern is getting far less in the 10.x series than was promised with CORE and then having to pay for v11. So... waiting and seeing...I'm in the same boat. Still not happy, but hoping for the best. Reading more from those in NT, it doesn't seem quite like a 180, but more as you said shift. My more updated feelings here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157271&postcount=21

jasonwestmas
06-24-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm in the same boat. Still not happy, but hoping for the best. Reading more from those in NT, it doesn't seem quite like a 180, but more as you said shift. My more updated feelings here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157271&postcount=21

Rob said that taking advantage of new technologies will take less time this way. I'm still unclear of course what he means by replacing the "Underlying Architecture" of Lightwave in a workflow kind of sense. I mean this isn't something new he has said only that NT now definitely plans on using LWcore as a testbed. Only time will tell how advantageous this approach will be.

Rayek
06-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Not totally agree with you guy ... Sometimes its not good to keep old code to make something new (that's why the Core Project was born) --> just have a look to Softimage / Max / Blender history ...

I just wanted to see Core for months a lot of work of the team on it and now ...

Hope NT Team took the best solution

wireX

Looking back on the development history of SoftImage and Blender, and comparing that to Core, it is interesting to note how the commercial re-writes were quite different in nature compared to the open source re-write. Softimage devs kept their users in the dark for years (and losing a fair share of the market in the process), while Max needed the resources of a huge company for the re-write.

Although emotionally I kept hoping Core would come to fruition, rationally I already suspected right from the beginning that the small Lightwave dev team would have a huge task on their hands - what with having to bear up to all the competition from the 'Empire' as it gobbled up both Maya and SoftImage, and other factions like the Trade Federations (Maxon, Modo, and others). Lightwave is more akin to the Old Republic: glorious in its heyday, and like all great civilizations it must either transform into something new, or crumble to dust.

To stick with the Star Wars analogy ;-) , the Rebel Alliance (with Blender's rewrite nigh on finished and development starting to focus on extending its features in a serious manner by the end of this year, we might soon have to call them the 'New Republic') seems to have almost unlimited public resources, as well as the popularity vote (everyone loves the underdog) on their side - Blender's successful rewrite is actually quite amazing, if you think about it. Development is ridiculously fast (2.58 is out already), and I just cannot see Lightwave and some other 3D independents that target the lower and medium end of the market compete with that in the long run, unless a miracle happens.

I sincerely hope the renewed focus on the older code will not cause more trouble for Lightwave in the long run (similar to TrueSpace). Perhaps Newtek should abandon Modeler altogether, and solely focus development on Layout, which I feel is much more utilized in and outside the Lightwave community. (I know I do.)

Then again, I do not really have an answer. I WANT Lightwave to experience its second renaissance. I really do, but only time will tell. I have to say, though, this is starting to become even more entertaining than the Duke Nukem dev "story". ;-) Where's my popcorn?

CG Addict
06-25-2011, 12:22 AM
I sincerely hope the renewed focus on the older code will not cause more trouble for Lightwave in the long run (similar to TrueSpace). Perhaps Newtek should abandon Modeler altogether, and solely focus development on Layout, which I feel is much more utilized in and outside the Lightwave community.

Perhaps not abandon modeler, but an emphasis on rebuilding layout is something to consider, what with all of the modeling competition out there, lightwave does have the advantage of a very capable animation and layout system. Updating it would certainly make a lot of current LW, Modo, and other users sit up and take notice. When in doubt play to your strengths.

Rayek
06-25-2011, 12:41 AM
Exactly. I always prefer to work in Layout myself. I hardly touch Modeler these days, and use other modeling software - which is something I have personally seen many others do as well.

Btw, I always thought it wouldn't be that hard to integrate modeler inside Layout in a Flash "movie-clip" like fashion: when an object is double-clicked, the object would be isolated in edit mode. Like other posters here, I never liked the bipolar approach.

dballesg
06-25-2011, 01:22 AM
I see if more as a shift over to another parallel roadway.

Following that analogy, right now all the users are driving on their cars on a road that is not finished, and we are driving on sections that are constructed as we drive, making stops when we arrive to a new village or city. I can see a few hills and mountains ahead while we are driving. Now the question will be if the builders will do tunnels on the mountains, or we will have a very curvy road easier o construct. I really hope they bought a big tunnel drilling machine :D

Drocket
06-25-2011, 01:52 AM
I think as 10.x owners we should get to test and try out LW11 when it's in beta before having to commit to it and then have the chance to upgrade to it before release if we like what we see.

I hope they do this, all we can do is wait and see. In the mean time I am looking over the fence while waiting.

OnlineRender
06-25-2011, 03:44 AM
If you build it ,they will come ....Steve maybe its your beers ,but the good_cop_bad_cop act made me lol ....

Let's put the facts in order , nt need to support 3rd party devs and i mean more then url and. A quick mention in the Oscar award winning post ...to the point where you should spend 3% of the tricaster marketing budget .ie give key players a Plane ticket and 3 nights in a hotel and during this over beers say thank you very much how can we work together and build .

Nt have made an error and put there hands and maybe no directly said sorry at least said things are going to change ,Matt no matter what you say the board will counter and quote you to the point of nervous breakdown,but we thank you for being honest and direct .

Now whomever said 3rd part devs are a danger to lw/nt need to take there head out of there *** and come down to reality ,without guys like wolf hurely ect lw would be stuck in the 90s

Start at the basics use your slogan model animate render , start with modeller its out of touch ,then move to layout , then work on render after all this is the selling point ......but no matter what people say nt already know thisyps wrote on android

SBowie
06-25-2011, 05:40 AM
Fair enough... do you or can you give us any expectation that NT might revisit the entire CORE HC deal and modify it to fit the new face of development. I think at the very least it would go miles in reuniting the LW community the new singular goal of rebuilding LW.I strongly suspect that in time the entire approach will be changed, yes - but thoughtfully, not precipitately, to respect the existing membership arrangements for the duration.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 05:49 AM
You really believe that the "bait and switch" method is a solid business model?I certainly don't, nor does anyone at NewTek. And I can see why some would take that view. I think many. however, will realize that this was never the intention. There is an alternative view ... that the reality is more along the lines of 'if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.' Clearly, "try, succeed and move on" is a lot nicer place to be, and no-one is pleased about the the way things went. Some are glad that the thing has been set on its wheels, has a clear direction, and worthwhile assets with which to move forward. Many will be waiting to see how the effort works out before making a judgment on it. Others will (understandably) be skeptical. No surprises there.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 05:52 AM
My more updated feelings here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157271&postcount=21Nice - thanks Larry, for the reasonable stance and the encouragement.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 06:00 AM
Perhaps Newtek should abandon Modeler altogether, and solely focus development on Layout, which I feel is much more utilized in and outside the Lightwave community.That's an interesting analysis, but I wonder if it might be slightly tweaked if you were looking at the situation having been a a HardCORE member. Those who have had a chance to spend time with CORE know that a fair bit of work was done to lay the groundwork for a modernized modeler. Melding that code in LightWave and finishing it will not likely be among the first things we see, I wouldn't think (speculating here), though I heartily wish it were otherwise. But neither does it seem likely to me that the work already done will not be put to good use moving forward.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 06:19 AM
If you build it ,they will come ....Steve maybe its your beers ,but the good_cop_bad_cop act made me lol .... It's been a long week, true. I walk a fine line, attempting to moderate with equanimity, but when it comes to LW, I'm involved really only because I'm an enthusiast myself - which means I come with an opinion. I was raised in a highly political family whose primary form of familial amusement was sarcasm. I've spent most of my life trying to reform. I've had with a measure of success, I think, but the job is not complete I'm afraid. The tendency to respond in kind surfaces once in awhile. Mea culpa.

The handling of matters has certainly, I think, left plenty of room for criticism. It's to be expected, and much of it is by no means either undeserved or incorrect. That said, a lot of very good people have worked very hard, and continue to do so. With a fairly good personal view of matters 'behind the curtain', I firmly denounce allegations of a darker nature and will continue to do so. Stuff happens. And it did. We pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and press on with renewed zeal. Some will mock and yell "Clumsy!" We bow our heads, acknowledge the taunt, and work hard not to do so again. Others are of the sort to rush with kicks and blows when they see an opportunity. So be it. Nothing really matters except performance. The 3D Division knows that and is determined to make a statement by their accomplishments, knowing that words will not suffice.


Now whomever said 3rd part devs are a danger to lw/nt Where was that said? Surely it must be out of context, because on the face of it, it's just plain wrong, and is the opposite of NewTek's view.

rcallicotte
06-25-2011, 08:49 AM
Hopefully, I can say this generically, since I don't want to break the forum with mentioning other products, etc. But, other products prior to Lightwave, which I owned for years almost from the company's inception, are very prone to crashes and are very shaky while using.

I have always found Lightwave very solid and version 10 has only crashed once on me in 4 or 5 months, but the crash was an overload of an OBJ scene from Poser Pro. Not that anything is wrong with Poser - the number of polygons and the textures in the scene just overloaded the system.

Dexter2999
06-25-2011, 01:36 PM
You really believe that the "bait and switch" method is a solid business model?

"Bait and switch" is practice of using a fraudulent lure with no intent of giving the lure to the victim. I don't think anyone can say Newtek didn't try to deliver. They tried. They took an extra two years and still didn't have anything release ready. (Of course one could argue that they spent a good deal of effort undoing misguided efforts.) Two of the biggest components were off the shelf third party elements, QT and BULLET. The biggest discussions were aesthetic ones. The advancements were all over the place, none of them in any apparent productive useful order. Honest efforts were made but in the end, to put it kindly, it was a trainwreck. CORE isn't a marketable product two years after it's intended release. If it was your company, would you keep pouring money into its development?

I think you can't get your head outside of your role as a consumer. You paid and you didn't get what you expected. What if they released CORE "as is", warts and all, and said "Here it is CORE 1.0, delivered to you by the deadline we set." They would have legally fulfilled thieir obligation but you would still be stuck with a crap product. Would you feel any better?

You are angry. I'm sure the people at Newtek are feeling embarassed and disappointed. I'm fairly certain no one is snickering and feeling clever for have taken the money of so many people and not delivering the promised product.

Sure they are trying to put a positive spin on things with the decision they have made. But I don't believe for a moment that there are zero regrets.

So, get your venom out and get on with things.

Emmanuel
06-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Stuff happens. And it did. We pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and press on with renewed zeal. Some will mock and yell "Clumsy!" We bow our heads, acknowledge the taunt, and work hard not to do so again. Others are of the sort to rush with kicks and blows when they see an opportunity. So be it. Nothing really matters except performance. The 3D Division knows that and is determined to make a statement by their accomplishments, knowing that words will not suffice.

Where was that said? Surely it must be out of context, because on the face of it, it's just plain wrong, and is the opposite of NewTek's view.

Yeah, NT is pretty much cought between a rock and a hard place.Damned if the don't and damned if they do.Let's see the pudding :)

CG Addict
06-25-2011, 02:21 PM
"Bait and switch" is practice of using a fraudulent lure with no intent of giving the lure to the victim. I don't think anyone can say Newtek didn't try to deliver.
So, get your venom out and get on with things.

That's where you get it wrong. I think it's very safe for I and most everyone else to assume that NT had this plan for change well thought out before they went viral. That's the stinger here for most users. There was a heavy emphasis on how this whole marketing plan went down.

I'm not saying that from a standpoint of intent to commit fraud, I'm saying that the intent to commit fraud doesn't have to occur to still be considered "bait and switch". A lot of LW users and some non LW users took the bait based on a cleverly played out viral campaign, a highly succinct marketing kit, followed by an even better membership drive. The point is these strategies I believe we all can assume were and appropriately planned out by NT in advance.

And so... you can see it any way you want, but if it doesn't reach your definition of "bait and switch", it could be considered an even worse indicator of what is really going on with NT internally. That said, I think inclusion and exclusion of some vp's bodes well with perhaps what we may see down the road. Perhaps things are becoming more and more clearer for the folks at NewTek. That's a great thing.

SBowie
06-25-2011, 02:35 PM
I'm saying that the intent to commit fraud doesn't have to occur to still be considered "bait and switch".Actually, it does: Generally, laws on the subject are phrased along the lines of "it is unlawful and forbidden to advertise goods or services with no intention to sell them as advertised".

Further, classic definitions of the practice always run along the lines of this one: "The purpose of the bait and switch tactic is to get customers to visit a store or business by advertising very low prices. Once the customer is in the store, the salespeople attempt to offer the customer items at higher prices." This clearly doesn't fit either. And finally, in a bait and switch scam, the customer is never given an opportunity to reverse the deal years later when he or she decides they regret the original decision.

Matt
06-25-2011, 02:38 PM
"Bait and switch" is practice of using a fraudulent lure with no intent of giving the lure to the victim. I don't think anyone can say Newtek didn't try to deliver. They tried. They took an extra two years and still didn't have anything release ready. (Of course one could argue that they spent a good deal of effort undoing misguided efforts.) Two of the biggest components were off the shelf third party elements, QT and BULLET. The biggest discussions were aesthetic ones. The advancements were all over the place, none of them in any apparent productive useful order. Honest efforts were made but in the end, to put it kindly, it was a trainwreck. CORE isn't a marketable product two years after it's intended release. If it was your company, would you keep pouring money into its development?

I think you can't get your head outside of your role as a consumer. You paid and you didn't get what you expected. What if they released CORE "as is", warts and all, and said "Here it is CORE 1.0, delivered to you by the deadline we set." They would have legally fulfilled thieir obligation but you would still be stuck with a crap product. Would you feel any better?

You are angry. I'm sure the people at Newtek are feeling embarassed and disappointed. I'm fairly certain no one is snickering and feeling clever for have taken the money of so many people and not delivering the promised product.

Sure they are trying to put a positive spin on things with the decision they have made. But I don't believe for a moment that there are zero regrets.

So, get your venom out and get on with things.

A well balanced post.

CG Addict
06-25-2011, 02:41 PM
Actually, it does: Generally, laws on the subject are phrased along the lines of "it is unlawful and forbidden to advertise goods or services with no intention to sell them as advertised".

Further, classic definitions of the practice always run along the lines of this one: "The purpose of the bait and switch tactic is to get customers to visit a store or business by advertising very low prices. Once the customer is in the store, the salespeople attempt to offer the customer items at higher prices." This clearly doesn't fit either. And finally, in a bait and switch scam, the customer is never given an opportunity to reverse the deal years later when he or she decides they regret the original decision.

Your right.

And somehow it doesn't even matter in this instance, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

Again, aside from what's happened I feel like some right decisions have also been made as stated in my last response to Dexter and so I'm moving on with those in a positive light from this point on and hope that indeed things are a lot more clearer for the guys over at NT.

Best to NT and their new direction.