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Original1
10-07-2003, 07:44 AM
are there any plans to enable the Toaster to handle HDTv images?
With the increasing speed of computers could the VT core be updated to handle HDTV resolutions

With the JVC already handleing HDTV in Progressive mode via Firewire it would be nice to be able to edit in ToasterEdit.

djlithium
10-13-2003, 03:35 PM
I would also like to know about the technical possibilities of HD through Toaster.
IT would be great to know if pulling in Serial Digital through the SDI card from the cameras and decks out there will allow for import of HD material into the Toaster system or at least provide some form of recording or downstep functionality.

Output is another matter of course, but I would really like to know if this is possible and what is needed to get this done.

If Andrew, or one of the happy hardware people could respond that would be great.

bradl
10-13-2003, 09:35 PM
my sources tell me, ain't going to happen with current hardware...

djlithium
10-14-2003, 02:28 AM
Well as I said, what about with the SDI board?

that brings it in I am hoping. Then sofware can step it down to SDef and out we go to tape.

My hope is that I can eventually use the SDI board for pulling HD in from a HD source and do video assist to SD monitors while recording the material in as SDef footage for video assist and playback.

Much cheaper then a 10,000 dollar down step unit and I get the benefit of using that material to pull keys and do other tricks onset for the director and visFX people.

Of course on the VisFX super and producer levels right now there is a lot of resistance to these systems working on set. The issue is they "want to fix it in post" because it means money for the attached post production company. I have the ability to tell the director, DOP and the producer on set if the shot is going to work properly or not based on its set up and I can call B.S. on the vfx supervisor there on the day when a shot is not set up efficently enough for saving money in post production. Needless to say it can be a hard sell.

With HD assist, its a good path to go if the T3 can eventually do this because right now for playback after a shot they rewind the tape running the risk of creasing the tape itself! Unlikely you say?? It happens and there goes your shot!

videoguy
10-14-2003, 08:44 AM
maybe i am mistaken but i seem to remember one of the egineers posting an answer to this question and he said that the current toaster capture card could handle hd but they are waiting on pc speeds to increrease to be able to handle it natively uncompressed

djlithium
10-14-2003, 06:40 PM
Ok well we are getting a little bit closer to an answer.

Here is another question. What happened to the "resize stills automatically" in the preferences??

I could have used that the other day moving HD material from DF to Toaster. Got around it by saving out a proxy of the footage, but it would have been nice to just load the AVI in Toaster and go with it even if I had to render it out or wait for the green light before playing it back. It's one less step to make it work.

Now that I think more about it, I do remember someone once saying that several years ago frame factory or something like it (ie our current T3 cards) did do an HD output at a trade show somewhere and that Tim Jenson did put the call out to people at one point to find out where the market was for HD using the Toaster on the desktop.

Am I in the negative evil spock universe or is there any truth or history to this?

pnelson
10-15-2003, 09:20 AM
The next Revolution in Desktop video is HD....

If NewTek can pull off a HD Toaster for an amazing price that will once again Revolutionize the way that Video is made!

Go Tim Go!!!

videoguy
10-15-2003, 10:02 AM
i wish we could get an answer from tim j on this issue , our production house is ready to go hd in a big way and i would love to be able to edit in the t3

pnelson
10-15-2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by djlithium

Now that I think more about it, I do remember someone once saying that several years ago frame factory or something like it (ie our current T3 cards) did do an HD output at a trade show somewhere

That was an Integraph computer with special hardware. Andrew set up the Video Toaster software so it would work on that system..

The response was great.. NBC in LA even came by the booth and said that they LOVE THE TOASTER! The Chief engineer even said that if NewTek released a HD toaster they would buy one for the Jay Leno show!!

So to answer the question.. Yes you saw Toaster Software editing HD video.. No it was the Video Toaster card. It was a special Integraph computer.

Later,

pnelson
10-15-2003, 10:12 AM
f

djlithium
10-17-2003, 10:36 PM
Ok well assuming we can get HD into the system one way or another (hopefully through the SDI card), then HD editing in VT-Edit can't be too wacky or even far away if it has already been done.

I would like to know more about this and possibly sign up for early betas of it.

I am desperate for an HD playback and video assist solution based on the Toaster.

IF the SDI board can pull the HD material in and or spit it back out, then would this not do the job and NewTek can jump pretty much right away to getting HD Toasters to market? If special hardware is needed, what was it and does anyone know the performance that Andrew was getting off that box?

I would be happy just to do straight record and playback of HD right now and downstep it in software and spit it out the Analog Toastercard for review on SD monitors.

eon5
10-18-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by pnelson
That was an Integraph computer with special hardware. Andrew set up the Video Toaster software so it would work on that system..

So to answer the question..
Yes you saw Toaster Software editing HD video.. No it was the Video Toaster card.

It was a special Integraph computer.

PLEASE!
LET ME KNOW where i can FIND inforamtion about this special Integraph computer

Need to buy one of this NOW! :)

kleima
10-19-2003, 12:28 AM
From what I recall reading, that was 3 or 4 years ago! So, I'm sure they have something (better) up their sleeves. (At least I'm hoping.) Computers are fast enough to handle realtime uncompressed HD now (at least two streams). So, if the VT software can handle it, all they have to do is make a card that can play and capture. My guess is that they will have to make an HD card, because if the current card could handle it, they would have already released an HD VT.

ScorpioProd
10-19-2003, 01:47 AM
But don't you guys think there are still a lot of things that VT[3] needs in SD before opening the can of worms of HD???

djlithium
10-19-2003, 05:23 PM
It's not really a huge can of worms. It's yet another format. I haven't looked to closely into the RTV format, but I would think that it could be modified rather easily to support the resolutions of 1080p and 1080i and be a true 24 frame format for use with the 24 frame progressive scan cameras coming on the market now for under 10K. Sure, I to would like to see a few things sorted out with regards to functionality. But think about it... if you can somehow get the material into the system via network, big fat drive from a transfer house or the SDI card, then why not have the Toaster have the ability to work with that material, stepping it down to SD for output while you work?? You are going to have to lay it off to SD anyway at somepoint and for most people always until there is more HD market share and broadcasts. SD is still reality, but the better, bigger, sharper the picture going into it helps always on output.

The can of worms will come from users not understanding the limitations of the systems. Asking stupid questions like "why can't I do 4+ streams of uncompressed HD when I can do more then that with SD footage" and "why does my SD source look like crap on an HD monitor after I have resized the footage" or "final cut handles HD, why doesn't my toaster do that with all of the realtime goodies?" or better yet 'my hard drives get really full fast with HD? Why?". A good manual or suppliment will shut things up really quick if people would read them.

I think most people in HD land would understand the realities of what that format brings with regards to production work flow. The do's and don'ts.. I have to say the sooner people get off DV and move to HD the better. Consumer or otherwise. I think NewTek should get this happening in the next patch release as an experimental "feature". I would be very happy with just being able to pull material in, do straight cuts and fades while having the options available to me in the properties panel and then output as a digital file with options for down stepping to SD in a variety of ways currently available. I have no problems with exporting to an AVI and then pulling it in with Vdub and working with it there for fancy format control.


Now, I have suggested this in the past several times, but compressed HD if it looks really really good may be a good option.

Currently several companies including TI make M-JPEG2000 wavelet encoding and decoding cards. These cards can take a analog video source or be fed video material through the system buss at impressive resolutions and frame rates.

In 2000, TI produced a card capable of handling 30fps 4K resultion images at a 20:1 compression ratio in real-time. the cards sold for about $5000 canadian with full SDK's. Now I know the idea of "compressing" HD might sound crazy to some of you, but consider this. In my meetings with directors of THX/Lucasfilm's digital cinema group in the same year, they were happy with aquiring material in this format and resolution at 10:1! Because if the way JPEG 2000 works, you need the horse power for encoding and encoding of the images as its about 5 times the CPU power then regular JPEG in the original standard. However, computers are well much faster then they were in 1989.

Software codecs are already on the market and very impressive. encoding in realtime is still a bit touch and go at D1, but it is doable. HD, maybe next year with 20:1 compression ratios. For straight cuts and fades for simple HD editing, this is all that is really needed. Use uncompressed material or the wonderful BG rendering for anything crazy. I think the t3 can do this sooner then later. No shame in trying it out. At least for beta people.

I agree I don't want it to be a distraction from primary development paths for the T3, but it seems this is more or less a priority based on market movement. Things like BC and TC are going to have to be fixed anyway reguardless of the formats that come to light in the future or modifications to the RTV file format to allow for larger resolution images and various frame rates.

The core of VT is equipped to already resize any material down to D1. Right now you can probably cut HD resolution AVI's in VT-Edit, make an EDL and then take it to an HD cutter for online assembly. Assuming you can get the material in and out of the box you can probably do this with T3 today. They question is really, will the SDI card open this path up as a NewTek native solution?

Comments thoughts and debunking welcomed.

:)

tmon
10-20-2003, 12:21 AM
I'm hoping that the still-early "developmental work" that NewTek is doing with the interface software, i.e. with VTEdit, the CG, batch capture, spline editing, etc., could be parlayed into a NewTek HD suite. If this is true, I'd better keep filling up the "Features Request" board...the price point for such a hardware/software suite might be less forgiving than TNT, VT1, T2 and VT[3] in terms of a lack of professional-level features (multichannel audio i/o, SMPTE support, audio sweetening, etc.)

How cool would it be if there was a VT[HD] down the road, and we VT[x] users were already experts at the software suite, needing only to make the accomodations for the higher res format. (I shudder at the render times for 1080p/1080i LightWave animations).

At my employer's shop, we are looking into HD systems right now for editing work on local commercial insertion onto ESPN HD. I can't say I've been thrilled about the choices yet. If there were a NewTek option, I'd be lobbying my employer to consider it.

kleima
10-20-2003, 10:06 AM
Sony's HDCAM has a compression ratio of around 5 or 6 to 1. This means that native HDCAM footage has about the same bandwidth requirements as uncompressed SD. This should pose no problem whatsoever for the VT. We should even be able to edit more than four streams in realtime! :cool:

djlithium
11-08-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by kleima
Sony's HDCAM has a compression ratio of around 5 or 6 to 1. This means that native HDCAM footage has about the same bandwidth requirements as uncompressed SD. This should pose no problem whatsoever for the VT. We should even be able to edit more than four streams in realtime! :cool:

Well not exactly. You are forgeting that the CPUs are going to have to decompress that material before you can use it. I would say maybe 1 -3 streams max using the latest CPUs available in the Opteron and Xeon lines.

bradl
11-11-2003, 10:22 PM
I don't think anyone at Newtek minds if I say this :confused:

I have talked to Paul, Aussie, Pat and others about HD on several occasions, at private meetings, parties and demo's. It seemed to me, their vision and perceived design path, mandates new hardware (and software) specifically for HD. The general discussion assumed that HD would be handled UNCOMPRESSED internally and would also have to support ingest and print out uncompressed. This, of course, means about a 4X increase in bandwidth pipeline to perform at current SD levels. Currently available computer hardware is not even up to that task, but as we all know, things can change very fast.

While there are benefits to using compressed HD, the over-ridding philosophy of REAL-TIME performance at this point would seem to preclude the use of it. However, it seems that recent developements in many competitors products on differing platforms and the increase in emerging HD technologies, may have them considering another trip to the drawing board, literally. Only time will tell.

It would seem though, that if they do have a design or even a prototype in house for HD, it wouldn't be released as an actually product anytime soon, giving the many issues involved like designing custom LSI chips, writting new code, interally testing it, alpha testing it, beta testing it, then preparing the final product for deployment. I would say more than a year at the least, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was 2 before it is finally released. And that is all dependent on if they are currently working on it and decide to move forward agressively with the project at all.

Of course I could be totally wrong and Andrew or Paul could set the record straight, but I think this topic may remain below the radar for some time to come.

pnelson
11-11-2003, 10:50 PM
In order for an HD Toaster to be considered the 2nd Revolution, two things must take place... It must be the first of its kind and the price must be amazing..

HD was always discussed during my tenure at NewTek. I just hope that things happen sooner rather than later.

I also hope that NewTek doesn't get too caught up in the "Uncompressed HD" ONLY trap...

So much effort has been put into upcompressed that the Video Toaster has almost all but missed the DV revolution. People don't see the word "compression" as a bad word anymore.. Sure you can see the artifacts, but when major networks standardize on DV for ENG and the MAC video revolution has taken place, the emphasis on uncompressed from the masses has taken a back seat to convenience and affordability...


Later,

djlithium
11-12-2003, 02:09 AM
I still think there are a lot of legs on wavelet compressed HD resolution video brought into the toaster.
NewTek doesn't have to reinvent the wheel on this one. Cheapish hardware HD resolution encoders/decoders are available that use M-JPEG 2000 video. What is needed at that point is the VT3 software to push and pull the material to and from that card, while doing a downstep to SD for "offline HD" editing. Then print to tape going out this type of card in a compressed format at 10:1 which is more then acceptable.

Even if the Toaster software was made to take any video clip that is larger then D1 and scale it correctly in realtime, this would be helpful. People could cut D1 video proxies of the HD material, save an EDL and then cut it on an online system for HD or an assembly edit using their consumer camcorder which is HD. Or soon to be HD.

I would love to see this kind of thing implimented anyway because it's helpful when pulling stuff in from Digital Fusion that is rendered at 4K academy or 2K.

I am going to try and see if I can do a DVE perhaps that might resize the material, and possibly put it on a clip in the timeline unless it gets rejected for resolution reasons.

No reason why it should. The resize stills option in T2 allowed for larger then D1 TGA to be scaled down automatically. which brings me to a question... what happened to the automatically resize stills option in the preferences panel??

Maybe this could just be "resize video" to D1 in preferences panel. Sure, HD may not playback on your machine, but T3 would I think be smart enough to know this and create a proxy via the BG renderer. Viola. HD editing on your T3. No special hardware.

It would at least be a step in the right direction.

PIZAZZ
11-12-2003, 08:37 AM
Lithium always thinking outside the box.

I agree with Phillip also.

I think a compressed version of VT that handles HD would be more than acceptable. Uncompressed HD is not all that for most purposes. Give Uncompressed to us when the market demands it.

ted
11-12-2003, 10:52 AM
While I hope HD Uncompressed comes some day, the Wavelt compression I've used for 5 years on my "other" system has NEVER been questioned by any of our Hi-end clients, NEVER.

After about 3 passes of compiling I could start to see some artifacts, but even then, more then useable.

The drive storage is already costing me profit for SD uncompressed. I can get 5 times the storage using our wavelet compression. God help us when we're dealing with HD Uncompressed!!!:eek:

Since my projections are about a year and a half before I GOTTA go HD, I'm confident NewTek will get us there.

NewTek?

Paul Lara
11-13-2003, 06:35 AM
;)

videoguy
11-13-2003, 07:07 AM
Of course paul chimes in with his super long wordy repsposes :D

I think if newtek was going to HD and it be a revolution they need to it uncompressed. in therory a computer uncompressed hd better then compressed and you coulddo more in realtime. i think it would be quite possible to build a systemcapable of handleling uncompressed hd for 20,000 or less if newtek would release their HD solution at the same as the current card. with the advances of drives it would be quite possible to do mutiple streamsof hd using SATA you could build an array with 2 tb of space using 10 200gb drives and achieve a therotical 1000mbs i want HD but i want it done right which i believe to be uncompressed. i think newtek would kill every other solution for uncompressed HD such as AVID and Quantel systems and they would finally get the respect they deserve

pnelson
11-13-2003, 07:42 AM
Now if we could get CG integrated into VT Edit.. All would be well with the world. ;->


See ya,

djlithium
11-13-2003, 09:27 AM
Well all things in due time.
I think a compressed wavelet based HD editing solution for T3(4) would probably be a good stepping stone to pull more users online and thus give newtek more cash in the kitty so to speak for uncompressed development for hardware and software HD tools that would intergrate into the Toaster suite down the road.

As I have said many times on this thread and on others, THX when I met with them 3 years ago (originally) was satisfied with capturing material at rates as high as 20:1! I think we can do better then that today, but really, 20:1 in MJPEG2000 format (check out www.morgan-multimedia.com) is very very toaster friendly. I typically will lay off project in this format at 10:1 for storage. Works beautifully.

Realtime playback of this format is doable on todays machines at D1 resolution inside the T3.

You have to see it to believe it.

Rich Deustachio
11-13-2003, 10:49 AM
One question.......how many of you guys are shooting with HDTV Pro cameras at this time?

Paul Lara
11-13-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by pnelson
Now if we could get CG integrated into VT Edit.. All would be well with the world. ;->


Can I hold you to that, Philip?

wvp
11-13-2003, 05:18 PM
So much effort has been put into upcompressed that the Video Toaster has almost all but missed the DV revolution. People don't see the word "compression" as a bad word anymore..
Agree.
I am a bit confused on what Newteks market is. If you have created an uncompressed editor, then you are marketing to professionals who demand high quality. Yet you create the BOB with predominatly RCA audio connections and your audio mixer has no db level indicators or EQ controls (just bass & treble).
I'm not saying don't have uncompressed, but if you are going "high quality" then go high quality and lets hear all the high end users insisting on Toasters. If you want to capture the small buisness/social/low-corporate market then make the system easily support compressed video and match features of other less expensive systems and get these people to rant & rave about Toasters.
I feel that Newtek is sitting on the fence trying to capture whatever part of the market they can. HD is going to be a mess if they don't concentrate on one segment and refine the product for that segment first.

ted
11-13-2003, 06:53 PM
NewTek IS on the fence. I often wonder why they have some ProSumer components but yet offer so many Professional features. I guess that helps their market share which is finally growing to the Professional masses.
I guess an all XLR-BNC BOB would be a great seller for them.
NewTek?

Let's add another monkeywrench. I wonder how hard it would be to offer various settings for compression.
Most of my stuff would be uncompressed, but I do some stuff where a 5-1 wavelet compression would do just fine and save me a lot of drive space.
NewTek?

Not complaining, but very interested.

videoguy
11-13-2003, 08:02 PM
uncompressed or nothing for me

PIZAZZ
11-13-2003, 10:54 PM
Let's see....

Most votes are that compression is acceptable.

1 or 2 votes insist on uncompressed.

As a dealer I would like a Newtek HD product to lean to the majority. Get people into the game.... not try to convert the people that are already in the game using gear they have been brainwashed into.

I would like to be able to sell more systems to the everyday user. That market is infinitely larger than the very few absolute uncompressed quality people.

Uncompressed HD or SD for that matter is not the bottom line item that sells the VT product. There is so much much more considered before a system is decided on.

bradl
11-13-2003, 10:59 PM
"ProSumer components"

"I guess an all XLR-BNC BOB would be a great seller for them"

"BOB with predominantly RCA audio connections and your audio mixer has no db level indicators or EQ controls"

"I feel that Newtek is sitting on the fence trying to capture whatever part of the market they can"

Preaching to the choir I know, but a little reality check may be in order. Newtek is a tiny company. Their customer base is tiny. The amount of units sold each year is tiny. The cash flow for R&D is tiny. Their staff of engineers and programmers is tiny.

By comparison look at companies like Adobe, MS, Apple, Pinnacle, Avid even ones like Ulead, Matrox, Canopus, DVS, etc. They sell millions of units each year to a very broad range of users. Hardware can be designed and tooled up very quickly when you can sell millions. Software can be written or bought or improve quickly when you have a staff of hundreds with some of the smartest coders on planet earth. Consumer goods and technology is changing a frenetic pace. New boards, new codecs, new everything. New, new, new all year long.

Newtek for whatever reason (many of them listed here all the time) has not become a huge market dominating company or for that matter even a major player. We like to think so sometimes, but trust me, they are not. The hardware we are using is ancient by todayís standards. Not saying it is horribly outdated and unusable but just very long in tooth by comparison. It was designed back in the Amiga days and only slightly improved upon since. That is why there are RCA connectors, 1/8" audio connectors, only one stream out, not onboard compression hardware, etc. It is outdated. BUT, it was so solidly built and designed in it's day that it is still kicking butt today.

As much as we hate to admit it, and even espouse it as a virtue, the software is also outdated. They are trying very hard to bring it up to date, but they are way behind the curve. If they had a couple of million dollars a month coming in, the software would be smokin! Reality is they have a small staff and tight budget and are frankly doing the best they can.

Will we see such features as DVE warp with lighting, Track mute/solo/patch, 8 (or more) channels audio, 7.1 Surround, HD, OMF/AAF, sophisticated media and archive tools, FC support, SAN certification, multiple streams In/Out (alpha), VTR emulation and TC chase, etc., etc,.? The sad but unfortunately true answer is not likely for most of it and not for a looong time for the rest.

Am I saying VT3 is obsolete or non-competitive. No. I think it is awesome at what it does. I love using it and get good results from it. For the money, it is un-paralleled. But I also know it is what it is and thatís all. I don't expect it to somehow magically become something totally different, no matter how much we moan and complain about the things it can't do.

I wish nothing but good for Newtek. I just like those guys. They are video guys at the core, which is more than some of these jonnie-come-lately companies. I think they for the most part 'get it' but they are just limited by the realities of the situation. The economy is picking up. VT3 is making in-roads. New hardware is coming. HD will happen. But we will all have to have a lot of patience, and you know how you get that - Rom 5:3 "tribulation worketh patience".

ScorpioProd
11-14-2003, 12:04 AM
Lots of good points.

I think one of the most important is WHY the VT is sort of in this gray area between low-end and high-end values...

Because back in the Classic Toaster days, it was possible to make ONE product be the best value for both high-end and low-end. Because it was a revolution, there was nothing that could be compared to it at the time.

We are in a different millenium now. And especially in the low-end, there are TONS of products that can do really great work. Even the high-end has developed some new tricks that the VT doesn't do yet, like HD.

So, what's the solution? Well, sure, it's true, Newtek is a small company, and that can't be changed overnight.

I personally think the key is to SPLIT the product line into high-end and low-end, IF it can be done cheaply, and I believe it can be, and here's how:

You continue improving VT[3] on the high-end getting into HD and 24p support.

You create a cheaper product BASED on this technology for DV-ONLY. The number one advantage to this for Newtek is it would require NO HARDWARE CARD or BOB, this is a HUGH savings. Secondly, you take the code you already have for VT-Edit and just optimize it for DV, the way others already do DV, so that you can get real-time firewire previewing and such. IF you can get real-time firewire out, that's great, and could be a real COMPETITIVE EDGE. NO ONE else can do real-time firewire out without rendering or hardware. Even without that, if you simply use background rendering to make it do real-time firewire out, that's FINE!

I think the paradigm of the storyboard and timeline together is enough different from the mainstream to spark interest, in this lower-end, software-only, DV-only NLE market.

And if this could be priced at say $995, with VT-Edit, LW LE and Aura, holy cow what a deal that would be! You can strip out all the live analog parts, they would only stay in the high-end product.

And again, from a "code base" point of view, I don't see the two products as that different, so it wouldn't need a hugh investment in programming to do it.

The low-end product could really make a name for Newtek and bring in lots of capital to work on whatever else they want, like the high-end product.

Not to mention, think how cool it would be to have the low-end product doing HD! Certainly possible with that MPEG-HD codec that JVC is already using with Premiere Pro.

ted
11-14-2003, 12:08 AM
Brad, so what you're saying is I need to buy a few more VT3's?:D

Eugene, I think that's what NewTek was investigating with Genesis. I'd hate to see resources split to improve two systems. Andrew and his crew are already doing more then they possibly can. Just my opinion. But hey, NewTek's gotta do what they feel is best. They have already survived an impossible OS setback, so I'm betting they'll do the right thing.

Jim Capillo
11-14-2003, 05:05 AM
I'd vote for uncompressed HD as well. Having had several wavelet based systems over the years, I know from experience that the more knowledgable clients see the crud/artifacts pretty easily - especially those that have worked with film or uncompressed before. Storage is cheap nowadays, I can remember paying almost $2,000 for a 9 gig hard drive not too many years ago - now you can get a 250 gig HD for what, $300?
Newtek is a small company, but their ace-in-the-hole (read:cash cow) is Lightwave. Without that app, they're waaayyy more likely to disappear trying to compete with VT[x]. I think it (VT) has been marketed pretty cleverly, definitely more than most of the competitors out there. Low cost, high(est) quality. Able to interface with a multitude of professional and prosumer (even consumer) equipment. Does just about anything you could need it to do to accomplish everything from prepro to laying to tape/disc. All the small dudes (and even some of the big ones) will look good using this box.

Back to HD...... the release of the under $4k JVC camera puts Newtek in a bit of a corner. R&D a true HD board, revamp the software and marketing is going to cost some upfront coin. Problem is, is their current market share going to immediately make the jump to the JVC HD (and others soon to come) camera? That is the dilemma - should they put the resources into making it happen to ultimately sell just a few boards? On the other hand, it could be a panacea..... if the JVC is a big seller and Newtek delivers an affordable true HD version that would challenge big boys Avid/Media 100, they could make a killing and cement themselves as a leader in HD editing stuff. If it were my company, I would breakout a VTEdit/CG/Paint-only version for HD, killing the LW/Switcher aspect, but also offer them as an option.

Make it uncompressed. Storage is affordable. Charge more for the ROI. Those that want truly want a HD production will pony up..... they already are.

If you want to play, you gotta pay.

videoguy
11-14-2003, 07:19 AM
I realize newtek is a small company with little money for R & D what i have always wondered is why newtek has never gone public. i think if newtek would even sell 25% of the company in stocks they could raise quite a bit of cash and invest in become a market dominating force. i am sure every user here ould consider investing

vanguard
11-14-2003, 03:28 PM
Count me in on D-5 quality, or forget it.

Our D-5 decks spend plenty of time on the road doing the HD thing.

Atrifacting IS A PROBLEM CLIENTS NOTICE!

The fact that we are uncompressed GETS US WORK from the competition.

The harsh reality is that Consumers or even Pro-Sumers have gotten used to the low price point of DV and FCP (and even VT3) and expect everything to be priced into that realm (at least eventuallly).

The Amiga toaster was much easier to develop and market because of the forgiving nature of the system its based around.

With "modren" computers everything is discrete, and therefore pricy to initiate development on.

Do I think there will be desktop HD (read 1080i DTV) NLEs?

You bet. Already available through $$$$$$$$$$$ to Avid.

Now, the question is when will it be cheap enough for regular Joes to get one......

Value recieved/percieved is a pretty touchy thing in a rapidly changing market place.

Our RCA TR-600 Quad machine was like $60,000 in the late '70s.

At that time the fact that it was all solid state, and any boob could load and operate it made that value good.

Now the same machine is worth $1-2,000. When we got the call for transfer it was invaluable to us. (and our client)

Now a good DVCPro deck will lay you back like $5,000.

Small, easy, cheap, doesn't need 100psi. air to operate, or three phase power. And makes pictures nearly as good as the Quad machine.

Value Recieved.

VTHD - Price ?????? Features ?????? Value??????

Look at what the Avid HD runs for D-5 quality and forget all the baggage associated with the fools for a minute:

It works.
It costs a ton and a half.
If you NEED it the value is percieved.
If its a cool toy to edit you sister's roomates cousins Bahtmitzvah on, perhaps not so valuable....


So IMHO (finally) I'm willing to wait for the quality and reasonable price.

We as a community can certinally ask, beg, plead, guide through opinions, and generally want NewTek to jump right in there and whip one up for us.

But, the last time I checked they were a business. The last time I checked that means they are there to make money. If the cost of development is so high that the final product is so expensive the consumer (us folks) won't buy it in LARGE QUANTITIES, why lose money?


Lookit the IVC company.

Who?

The IVC company.... Great Britan's largest maker of high-end TV stuff in the 60s and 70s. These guys were like the RCA of GB (whoops, where's RCA Broadcast now...).

Anyways these guys made the best VTR ever.

Period.

Not been eclipsed to this day.

Really.

The IVC9000 2" helical scan VTR was the highest specification deck ever made. Its bandwidth would provide for 1080i signals.

It made its debut in the late 70s.


The R&D bankrupted the company, and fewer than 12 were made for the public.

Nobody could figure out what to do with all that extra headroom!

NTSC is a smaller signal than PAL, so why bother says the consumer.


NewTek please don't rush HD through.


End of Rant.


Is this guy a nut or what?

Ohh wait that's me I'm talking about....

djlithium
11-14-2003, 03:52 PM
Don't even go down the path of turning newtek into a publicly traded company. It's not that it's a bad idea, it's just that I know from my experience the process of doing it can largely be a distraction from the real task at hand by the senior staff all the way down to heads of engineering.

That's worse then say "please get HD working".

Yes, newtek is small, but that also means they can shift gears quicker and adapt faster then most other companies and solutions become more practical.

HD on the toaster is going to have to be in phases. Compressed using a wavelets (again, take a look at M-JPEG 2000 at 20:1 and tell me if artifacting is going to be an issue!) is the first step because we are a ways a way from off the shelf computer systems that will handle HD easily and inexpensively.

Editing HD uncompressed at this stage is useless even on the avids. Compression technology has come so far in the M-JPEG 2000 world it is almost stunning that people still consider DV and DVCAM as professional. The problem is that people still have their heads up their collective butts when it comes to this stuff.

ANYONE who knows the magic tricks you can do with MJPEG2000 will understand that this is a golden opportunity because of the way it works. I am not just talking about compression quality, I am talking about the fact that you can pull D1 video resolution out of JPEG 2000 image that has resolutions as high as film. This is how the format works. You can pull lower levels of video detail from an image using JPEG 2000, leave the original hi-res quality intact and cut your stuff in "D1 proxy mode" then tell it to reassemble the whole "cut" in HD, or film resolution with no loss in quality.

This stuff already exists kids. 3 years ago my first "public" company devloped a method for doing this with video streaming systems and filed for patents for it. The same methods can be applied to an NLE. I have presented this stuff to Paul before but I guess I wasn't taking the right alien dialect for him to understand that part of it. The process we came up with allows for real-time network adaptive bit rate control based on feedback from client connected computers to a special server. The magic trick was a thing called "the image parser".

I can explain more about this and there is a white paper I wrote on the subject dealing with the technical and market aspects of this topic related to this technology.

So, probably many of you are thinking "gee man why are you not a milliionaire" well we did get into a deal with another company to purhcase us for 6.4 million canadian, but I canned the deal because they didn't have any real cash for development.

So, today, the whole concept is out there for anyone to jump on. I want it to be NewTek. Why? Because it's a small American company that has shown it can be kicked in the nutz and get right back up and kick back.

It's up for grabs...

Talk to me.

ScorpioProd
11-14-2003, 04:04 PM
As for Genesis, no, that is really more a stripped down VT[3] optimized for live switching above all else.

Useful for a profitable niche market, but that's it.

bradl
11-14-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by djlithium
The same methods can be applied to an NLE. I have presented this stuff to Paul before but I guess I wasn't taking the right alien dialect for him to understand that part of it. The process we came up with allows for real-time network adaptive bit rate control based on feedback from client connected computers to a special server. The magic trick was a thing called "the image parser".


Kelly,

Sounds like very interesting technology. Maybe a little too 'cutting-edge' for the current staff to really devote their attentions too, considering how busy we are keeping them. Hopefully, someone there will have the time and insight to consider something like this for the future.

As far as Genesis, I am not really sure what was actually shipped before it was pulled (opps - I thought it was pulled, guess not). In a conversation with Paul he explained to me the intent was to use the exact same hardware with some custom content media and a special software interface. The interface would have a pre-arranged set of tools for live events that were integrated into one main module. Basically a custom skin (or skins) that simplifed the interface making it more user friendly, even for a novice. I think he said it is still under development and may reappear as a product.

djlithium
11-14-2003, 10:44 PM
Well back when it first came out, yeah it was radical stuff,
but now commercially available codecs do this. You just have to tell your application to only pull certain levels of detail out and the codec does the rest.
When we originally came up with the idea the ink was barely dry on the first chapter of the JPEG 2000 specification. Everything I am talking about here is patent free in chapter 1 which was part of the deal with any vendor that contributed to the design.

It's not that crazy. Or too cutting edge. It's a sleeper piece of technology that has been "bumped" for several years because of a lack of marketing and specific tools that make use of it. However JPEG 2000 still image technology is all over the place. Most of you don't realize it by your web browser probably has JPEG 2000 style image decoding already built in and Adobe Photoshop is now shipping with a JPEG 2000 image tool set.

I am literally telling you guys that compressed HD editing with the T3 is something that could be introduced in under a month. The real hard part is getting the stuff in and out of the box. Editing the material once it is in is not difficult and off the shelf codecs from several companies support this stuff.

Just no one has really applied it to anything with video levels in the way I am proposing.

dml
11-15-2003, 06:50 AM
I asked one of the very top people at NewTek a year ago about the Toaster handling HD. While I'm not sure if the current Toaster card can pump HD in and out, I was told (a year ago) that computers would have to become six times faster to handle HD using the Toaster.

Matt Drabick

dml
11-15-2003, 06:57 AM
Phil Nelson, if you are so devoted to the Toaster now and when you worked at NewTek, why did you leave the company?

Matt Drabick

pnelson
11-15-2003, 07:54 AM
Matt,

Good question! Last year my Dad invented a toy called Glowco and asked me to help him run the company... We have done tests with Wal-Mart, been working with a Division of Readers Digest and will be in some of the Major Educational Catalogs beginning in January! Glowco has even been endorsed as a Break Through Educational tool by the Southern Early Childhood Association.

I always have been a NewTek nut! The reason I was hired back in 1998 was because I called them everyday for over 1 month telling them that they need to hire me.. Finally they gave in.. ;->

In addition to working with my Dad at Glowco, I'm also working with Class on Demand to help them expand their reseller channel!

I'm still in contact with all o' my NewTek buds at least a few time each week! Who know.. Maybe one day, I'll even be back in the Toaster Country.. ;->

Check out what I've been up to at www.glowco.com... You can even see my ugly mug in the streaming video on our website.


Thanks for asking!

Paul Lara
11-15-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by djlithium
I have presented this stuff to Paul before but I guess I wasn't taking the right alien dialect for him to understand that part of it.

It's up for grabs...

Talk to me.

...or maybe it flew right over Paul's head. :p

I'm listening.

djlithium
11-15-2003, 08:51 PM
Well we will have to take the technical details offline for discussion.

:)

Think digital Origami. That's JPEG 2000.

Jean
11-16-2003, 09:00 AM
I found an amazing solution for HD editing available under Final cut pro.

The thing is with, only a pci X card and a special software codec they managed to give realtime hd solution for 1995 $.
If u're using their codec under After effects or combustion etc, the card automatically output the hd content to HD monitor or HD deck, brilliant.

If u want to use HD with a transfer rate so low you can use IDE drives you can, with jpeg codec.

Go there and take a look on how their doing it.

http://www.decklink.com/productsdeckhd.asp

My point is, if they can do it, Newtek can too.

pnelson
11-16-2003, 03:18 PM
Hmm... That looks very interesting.

Elmar Moelzer
11-28-2003, 05:53 AM
Hey!
I am a VT3- newby, but maybe I can add something interesting to this discussion:
A while back there was a team of VT- 3rd- party- developers, that was in the middle of developing a HDTV- solution for the VTNT1.
They were almost done, but then something happened between some of them and NT and they stopped development.
I am sorry, that I cant give any details, there is as always a lot of politics involved with that and I want to stay out of it.
Nevertheless it is a real pitty that this did never make it, or the VT could have had HD- support already quite a while back.
It does prove one thing however: NewTeks products are really, really powerfull and there is still a lot of potential, even in their current hardware...
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
11-28-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Jean
I found an amazing solution for HD editing available under Final cut pro.

The thing is with, only a pci X card and a special software codec they managed to give realtime hd solution for 1995 $.
HD editing solutions have really come down in price, it seems that the only caveat at the moment are the storage requirements, as well as the costs for "external" hardware (HD Decks, monitors etc...). These seem to be constant in price (as Digibeta is for SD editing, the editing systems come down, the hardware stays as far as the price is concerned).
You can get turnkey HD systems for around 20.000$ at the moment, either from Boxx (Bluefish HD and Premiere Pro) or Apple (G5, Decklink HD, FCPro4). Mind you, HD still needs around 160MB/s at full res, 10 bit YUV uncompressed...
If you go SD, you can get some really nice _turnkey_ systems for around 8000$ - 9000$, based on the same hardware, just with SD boards and less HD space.
I hope that Decklink will support Premiere Pro soon, that should be a nice system for editing only. (Not slamming the VT[3] here, bt editing isn't the strong point of the system imho).
Cheers,
Mike

eon5
05-12-2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by videoguy
maybe i am mistaken but i seem to remember one of the egineers posting an answer to this question and he said that the current toaster capture card could handle hd but they are waiting on pc speeds to increrease to be able to handle it natively uncompressed


so... the only limit to play HD using VTboard is the software !?

:confused:

videoguy
05-12-2004, 08:46 AM
thats how i have always understood it ! however, I could be mistaken my advice is that you email one of the guys at newtek like andrew cross phillip nelson or paul and ask for details

Lightwolf
05-12-2004, 08:49 AM
To be quite honest, I seriously doubt it with the current hardware...
After all, it is still a 32bit 33 Mhz PCI board, so you can squeeze a max of 133MB/s through it, hardly enough for a full stream of HDTV, even at 8 bit...
I guess the next gen of the hardware will be needed for that (let me guess.... PCI Express and 10bit :) ).
Cheers,
Mike

Jim Capillo
05-12-2004, 09:37 AM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21753

eon5
05-12-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by ACross
The VT card has NTSC outputs. As you are, I am sure, aware NTSC has a strictly defined resolution and bandwidth (it's an analog signal.) As such, you cannot simply start sending HD down an NTSC connection.

Even if you did (by breaking the standards) it would not do anything since no output device would accept it. In essence, the restriction is a specification issue.

A.

ScorpioProd
05-12-2004, 12:14 PM
Question:

Would any of you find it useful to be able to futureproof productions right now by shooting in HD and then editing that HD footage in real-time in VT-Edit for SD output? Assuming that you could save your EDL and BC later with HD when VT supports full HD.

Bobt
05-12-2004, 02:05 PM
Hey guys reading this I dont understand why anyone
not want the choice of HD-DV, MJPEG or uncompressed HD?
I saw HD-DV playing on a LAPTOP in Premiere Pro at NAB.
Its only 19Mbits/sec. Less data rate than DV.

So why cant we get compressed HD now and for those with
gobs of money for hard drives allow them to do
uncompressed HD editing.

Seems simple enough. There are BOTH customers out there.

I am guessing and pretty sure there would have to be
a new board fo HD. PCI Express or PCI-X. OK, so what, it was bound to happen. HD needs more data has a different clock
rate there's a shock.

What always confuses me is why Newtek is stepping over
dollars (being first you can charge more heck the codec is
500) to pick up pennies. HD is coming in a big way and I excpect
by the end of the year it will be as hot as hot can be.

Good time to get into it no? I would think so.
But hey.. I am not Newtek and whatever they
are doing I am sure its trying to fill the needs of their current
clients. So... Phillip Nelson when you going to demo my stuff
:p

Bob

djlithium
05-12-2004, 02:13 PM
Absolutely that would be handy.

In most cases that's all a lot of us are asking for so that we can step back up later and "nothing changes".

Has anyone looked at the prices of HD decks these days??? Yikes!

ScorpioProd
05-12-2004, 04:45 PM
Bob,

Sorry, but Newtek is already too late to be "first" with an HD solution. The companies that showed HD solutions at NAB will be getting the initial HD big bucks. HD is not a "revolution" that Newtek is leading.

Other than self-contained NLEs that have announced support for HD and/or HDV, look at the DeckLink HD cards for instance. If Newtek wanted to, THAT would be the easy/cheap way to jump into HD, device drivers are all that's needed for the input. The PicVideo M-JPEG codec works fine compressing 1080i to a very reasonable and real-time size. But then there's the HD output issue. The VT would have to be totally redone in terms of DVE engine and such, since at this time it is certainly not resolution and frame rate independant.

Newtek has announced their current marketing direction, and hopefully this will make them tons of money, and in turn this will let them invest in useful R&D in the future for whatever market they wish to pursue at that time.

djlithium
05-12-2004, 05:43 PM
I would have to say that an HD switcher like the VT3 would be a killer app for newtek if they can release it ASAP and push the switching side of the market. That and more heavily market the product as is as a front end solution for streaming media productions. Many companies spend tens of thousands of dollars for encoders and cameras and other gack plus bandwidth then only find their production lacks the "quality" of a broadcast TV segment.

I suggest that NewTek hit Streaming Media West this year, even if it just wheels around some portable Toaster3 systems and offers to "plug in" to the various booths camera set ups and provide front end switching capabilities and the CG.

The TV studio in a box thing needs to be heavily marketed towards streaming media producers. It's a market that is spending money on technology and is looking for turnkey solutions for front end production tools that don't run a company into chapter 11.

Bobt
05-12-2004, 06:34 PM
Most systems far as I can tell are going cheap or high end.
I think there is a nitch for both. But hey I am not making a
living doing this so what do I know.

Bob

Amadeus0
05-12-2004, 11:43 PM
How HD could be done with the Toaster:

Open up VTEdit to allow HD resolutions/Frame rates. (Make this the VT4.) Make it so that when you play HD footage it comes out the analog in SD (user option to turn off to save CPU cycles if needed.)

Then advertise that the Toaster can Edit and create HD content (LW/Aura/DF already do HD rez.)

Then add an HD-SDI card to the options for a Toaster (along with the SX-8 and SD-SDI card.) BANG! HD in and out of the system.

Please keep in mind that (for the most part) the only real way to get HD in and out of a system -esp. uncompressed- is SDI. Not Analog.

ScorpioProd
05-13-2004, 12:51 PM
Guess what, VT-Edit, with NO changes, already will convert PicVideo M-JPEG compressed 1080i HD to SD and support two streams real-time on my system. (Yes, I have personally done this.)

IOW, a lot of what is needed for HD support, in one way or another, is already in there.

Bobt
05-13-2004, 12:57 PM
Thats very very intresting Eugene, Hmmm as they say.
Can you actually make the 1080i 16x9? Then see if it all
works?
Maybe its time for that TED HD standalone version?

bob

ScorpioProd
05-13-2004, 04:04 PM
1080i HD is 16:9, so therefore so is the SD 16:9.

Again, I've personally already done this.

Bobt
05-13-2004, 07:43 PM
Now all you need is the render and capture to 1080i.
MJPEG at 22MB NEWTEK !!!! SDI maybe???

Bob

djlithium
05-13-2004, 07:58 PM
This is old news.
I have been doing this for a while now taking my stuff from DF rendered out at 1080i and pulling it into VT-Edit to cut and trim.
Since the output is going to NTSC D1 anyway its simply being used as a cutting tool so I can work with that level of footage to output to tape what amounts to being a much nicer quality level of video than what I would cook out of DF at or Lightwave at D1 720x486.

Now as I have been saying for over a year, if a nice happy fluffy NewTekian would open their brains for a few seconds and realize that this matched with a nice happy HD card and some proper device drivers from a third company (black magic) would basically make it a solid HD cutting system. You just need to be able to play the project back out to the HD card no in SD, but from the original source files referenced in the project file.

NewTek can enter the HD market tomorrow by simply allowing for other third party capture and output devices to work with VT-Edit. Nothing changes except getting this third party stuff to work. That and some basic understanding of the fact that EDL export needs to get happening so that an "EDL player" can be coded for playback out of the optional third party card. This would greatly expand the desireability of the VT3 product to others out there with these Black Magic or Blue Fish cards but don't have great editors to do anything with them. And certainly not on the PC side of the platform as the Black Magic guys still have their drivers in ALPHA!!! for the PC.

Does this sound like a crazy idea? Oh sure it is. Because marketing direction is reasoning behind NewTek's choice in not attacking this area even in this small (and I do mean small) deviation to mod the VT software to work with these types of tools which would also mean the core VT tools would be fixed for things like EDL and OMF.

Radical concepts.

Amadeus0
05-13-2004, 09:10 PM
When I said:


Open up VTEdit to allow HD resolutions/Frame rates.

I was talking about being able to create projects AT HD rez. Just think of how in Premiere (or Aura) you set the projects' resolution...be able to do the same thing in TeD.

djlithium
05-14-2004, 04:26 AM
There is no real reason to do that if you can use VT-Edit as an offline HD editor which then allows you to render or export your project using the original source files (at HD res) and cook them back out at HD res. Much like using DV material for straight only cuts in premiere does not require a recompression step back into DV.

An online HD edit playback utility would suffice here for almost everyone. Use that to export back to tape or whatever (using said 3rd party card until newtek cooks up their own) and some form of VTHD project playback filter like we have now for TMPEG-Enc via the Avi Wrapper.

PIZAZZ
05-14-2004, 10:25 AM
Really Kelly, You need to stop holding back and tell us how you really feel. It is not good to hold everything inside. :) :p
The man of not so many words...... NOT! j/k LOL

Good to see you are still bopping around. Sending you an email in a bit.


************** BACK ON TOPIC *****************

HD on the VT would be a good thing any way you do it. Just to be able to say we can do HD makes it easier to sell to people worried about the future. I talk to clients that ask me about HD all the time. They probably will not be able to afford cameras and decks for another 3 years but they are still worried about what the future holds since the FCC has deemed NTSC unacceptable.

Now a VT HD switcher is totally crazy talk.... but I like it. I think that a multi-input switcher that can handle the HD bandwidth along with the live interactive capability of the current software feature set would definitely be a good thing.

AntAT
05-14-2004, 04:52 PM
..........