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View Full Version : Blue Screen of Death on 850 !! oh no



adebats
06-04-2011, 03:44 PM
I'm in the middle of a music festival in the UK - streaming live all weekend.

I've just had a BSD in the middle of it and then rebooting gave "Disk Read Error".

F11 to go into Boot Options and selecting the top Drive somehow loaded it but I have several minutes of panic.

Having done a Live TV gig last week, I'm obviously a little nervous about this for other events coming up including another Live TV on Friday.

Any advice gladly received :)

SBowie
06-04-2011, 05:02 PM
That's pretty scary. In my experience, BSODs are more often hardware related than anything else. The disk error might be related. As soon as possible, you might want to run diskcheck on the C drive, at the very least.

adebats
06-04-2011, 06:12 PM
Hi Steve,

Its 1am here and I've just had another reboot happen. running the diagnostic and check disk now. - Will cmoe back.

If the C drive is not happy - any easy way of getting the software on another drive ?

adebats
06-04-2011, 06:29 PM
not looking good - Looks like a dead disk in the middle of a live event - the worst nightmare ! On bootup it goes through the hard disks and on Port 5 comes up with some messages that look like errors - before disappearing onto the next screen. I presume Port5 is the Hard Disk C drive ?

SBowie
06-05-2011, 07:40 AM
I have no idea, sorry. Not sure where 'Solihull' is, but Tech Support in North America is open Sunday ... might be your best bet (absent a good local reseller).

adebats
06-05-2011, 09:33 AM
Hehe Steve, not many people in the UK know where it is either. Its a definite hard disk failure and I'm about 200 feet away from the main stage at a festival - I can only assume the heavy Bass caused it. I got one of my guys down with a broadcast overnight. Who is the best contact in France to talk about about this ?

Terry Rhodes
06-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Hi Steve
(snip)
He is there on Monday from 09:00 or may answer email over the weekend !

[Edit: Hi Terry, and thanks for that. I had already PMed the same info to 'adebats', but am a bit reluctant to post it openly, not knowing whether NT-E (and Simon) would appreciate circulating it - hence this edit, sorry.]

adebats
06-05-2011, 03:12 PM
Hi

I have mailled Simon - thanks guys for the help and I am in the middle to a resdesign of the truck to account for the heart being ripped out.

One idea we had - how about a SSD for the C Drive - more expensive but no crashes due to vibration and as its sold as a solution for a truck, this would add peace of mind for a lot of people I would imagine.

digiview
06-05-2011, 10:19 PM
Hi

One idea we had - how about a SSD for the C Drive - more expensive but no crashes due to vibration and as its sold as a solution for a truck, this would add peace of mind for a lot of people I would imagine.

I move my Tricaster to various venues and it's housed in a 16 RU flight box that get rolled in an out of trailers and I do worry about the system drive. Two week ago we suffered a HDU problem 15 min before show time if a HDU backup had been available I could have had the system up and going in a few minutes rather than take the TC out of service.

I agree if with the idea about using the SSD for C Drive. Is there any reason why you can not substitute the SSD drive for the C drive and also can the C drive reside in one of the slots on XD850 so it can be quickly exchanged on site?

SBowie
06-06-2011, 05:18 AM
I think I've seen some notes along the way indicating SSDs may not be ideally suited to this service, but regardless, for it does seem like it might be useful to maintain a cloned C drive for absolute security. In all my years and all my units I've never had a system drive fail, but obviously it can happen.

ZachSchuster
06-06-2011, 08:08 AM
I am going to add a clone utility to the feature request thread.

pro---studio
06-06-2011, 11:21 AM
Just my 2 cents to this situation:

We had a similar situation with our TC Broadcast 2 years ago. There were some hicups on our "C"drive. I cloned the C-Drive to a new Intel SSD and put it back into the TC Broadcast.

But that was not a good idea. The SSDs are so fast that they throw too much data to the bus which caused video frame drops and other problems regarding the video streams inside the TC.

I remember a post of Dr. Andrew Cross somewhere in this forum where he warns everyone not to use SSDs inside any TC because it is a well balanced system that will not function the way it should if you use a SSD.

What I do now is to have a backup system drive inside our truck. actually it is exactly the same type and brand of the original drive. We now have a TCXD850. So if the system-drive fails, I can simply put the backup drive inside an empty drive bay and change the bios settings to boot up from this drive.

I would never ever go to any client without my backup drive. That is a life-saver in this situation.

Regards

pro.

Dexter2999
06-06-2011, 11:35 AM
Computer based systems in roadcases are subject to this kind of thing. Although I have never used a TriCaster, we had a Hog PC lighting system in a 16 RU case that suffered a similar fate when the case was being put into position...carried up two flights of stairs to a landing! Apparently the techs weren't strong enough to lift the case and carry it, so they lifted it up one stair at a time to get there. The result was quite a bit of banging on the case, and when they went to boot, NOTHING!

We also had a Grand MA console, when they first came out. It was used in a Techno Dance club. The amount of bass in the room would cause board faults when it had to access the hard drive.

Backup drives are a solution. Hot swap drives are great in my opinion. SSD would be resistant to vibration damage I would think as there are no moving parts to fail, also they would give you faster boot times should something go wrong. But like Steve said, there may have been a reason for not using them. And they would also raise the pricepoint of the system by another $1K which could turn many of their target demographic off.

adebats
06-06-2011, 02:20 PM
Wise words Mr Pro :) We are planning for that now.

Tim H.
06-06-2011, 04:52 PM
I think I've seen some notes along the way indicating SSDs may not be ideally suited to this service, but regardless, for it does seem like it might be useful to maintain a cloned C drive for absolute security. In all my years and all my units I've never had a system drive fail, but obviously it can happen.

I'm not sure if the SSDs are too fast, but there have been some significant developments in SSDs over the past year or two.

There is now a functionality built into the newer Windows OS that better distribute/manage how data is written to the SSDs. For example, a 128GB SSD actually has ~10% more capacity that is not visible to the user. That is so a SSD that has 127.8GB full doesn't write/re-write on that same 0.2GB over and over. That would potentially cause the drive (or at least that part of the drive) to fail. That extra 10% more evenly distributes those last writes/re-writes over a greater physical portion of the drive.

All that being said, I have no idea whether the XD line of TriCasters would be suited for a SSD. That's for the NewTek engineers to determine. I'm sure that the NewTek company line will (rightfully) remain, "don't change the hardware." :)

Sincerely,
Tim Hedegaard
Virtualsets.com, Inc.
NewTek Authorized Reseller
Customized LiveSets for XD300, XD850, and 850 EXTREME

www.virtualsets.com
[email protected]

(323) 512-1542 voice

pro---studio
06-07-2011, 02:08 AM
@Tim

On a TC Broadcast you can't use a SSD. I tried that with bad results.


I doubt that you can use it on a TCXD. The SSDs are able to push about 200MB/s (MEGABYTES!) to the bus. If there is anything else going on that is timecritical (like video processing) you will get dropped frames. The bad thing about this is: It won't happen everytime - only if the system pulls data from the system drive. So you will maybe end up "well it works" in your office but "oh man - can't use my TCXD" at your client.

Maybe Dr. Cross could chime in?

Regards

pro.

digiview
06-07-2011, 03:15 AM
Hi I agree with having a clone system drive on hand my question is that I am Mac user and new to Windows. What software is best to use to clone the system drive and how do you get into the Bios to change the system drive once the clone drive into one of the bays on the XD850.

Many thanks for for sharing the info.

Tim H.
06-07-2011, 07:53 AM
The bad thing about this is: It won't happen everytime - only if the system pulls data from the system drive. So you will maybe end up "well it works" in your office but "oh man - can't use my TCXD" at your client.

Please note that I was not advocating that anyone use a SSD in their TriCaster. I merely mentioned that read/write management has changed quite a bit recently...making the potential of a SSD in a XD-series TriCaster more of a reasonable possibility for NewTek in the future.

I would NOT recommend that anyone use a SSD in their TriCaster (especially the SD-only models), due to the potential stability problems.

pro---studio
06-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Please note that I was not advocating...

Noted. ;)

I just wanted to share my findings regarding the SSDs inside a SD TC.

Cheers

pro.

Dexter2999
06-07-2011, 11:48 AM
I have been following this and while I am not a Tricaster user, I know somthing about computers (not an expert by any means.)

I'm not following the dropped frames issue with using an SSD as a system drive. This seems to fly in the face of two concepts that are fundamental (at least in Offline NLE's.)
One being never store media on your system drive.
Your system drive and media drives should be on discreet buses as opposed to shared buses.

I'm not disputing that there is an issue but I just don't follow a system drive should produce the errors identified here.

Is there anyone from tech support that could elaborate on this? Or is this a topic that Newtek chooses to not comment on because changing the system spec's is against the official policy?

SBowie
06-07-2011, 11:56 AM
Here is the previous thread on this topic: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112789

pro---studio
06-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Great - thanks Steve - I forgot that I'd asked for the SSD thing already.

Regards

pro.

adebats
06-09-2011, 11:03 AM
A worrying addition here. the new Disk (which under the solution of cloning would be our backup) went in . 850 switched on and then whilst we were setting up Cams, it was off and will not switch back on.

We have been saved by PlanetDV based in Bradford who have loaned us their Demo model - we are indebted (and very very worried) - don't really want to have a backup 850 in the truck

GeekNews
06-10-2011, 02:25 AM
While I know it is frowned upon. I added a disk image application to the system and before I go anywhere I make 2 C: Drives and have 2 backup data disk.

Having worked on aircraft for many years and seen drives go belly up due to vibrations etc I always have a spare set in a special pelican case because Murphy is gonna get you at some point.

Todd..

digiview
06-11-2011, 07:31 AM
Hi GeekNews as I am new to the Window platform would you be able to share or send me a PM what application you use that you have found successful.

Having experienced a hard dive failure on site a job three weeks ago I am very nervous of going on site without backup. I do think that Newtek should look into offering a solution for a backup sys drive.

SBowie
06-11-2011, 11:38 AM
I do think that Newtek should look into offering a solution for a backup sys drive.So do I. This would be preferable, I think, to users cobbling schemes together unaided. At the least, if someone uses something like Acronis, for example, I think personally I'd uninstall it from the active drive after the cloning operation.

pro---studio
06-11-2011, 12:06 PM
So do I. This would be preferable, I think, to users cobbling schemes together unaided. At the least, if someone uses something like Acronis, for example, I think personally I'd uninstall it from the active drive after the cloning operation.

Steve,

you can start Acronis from a rescue DVD or CD. You don't need to install it to make a backup. That is how I did my backups.

Regards

pro.

SBowie
06-11-2011, 01:58 PM
That sounds like a better plan.

GeekNews
06-12-2011, 10:15 AM
I use Acronis


Hi GeekNews as I am new to the Window platform would you be able to share or send me a PM what application you use that you have found successful.

Having experienced a hard dive failure on site a job three weeks ago I am very nervous of going on site without backup. I do think that Newtek should look into offering a solution for a backup sys drive.

csandy
06-13-2011, 01:52 AM
I've found Acronis to be a lifesaver. My problem with it is administrative though. I use it so infrequently (only when I first purchase a new system) that I can't keep track of the license. I think I have several file folders with the serial numbers I print out and file then forget about from the original Acronis e-mail.... My bad filing aside, the program works great.

Edit: Acronis now let's you type in all your serial numbers and organizes the registration data for you, a la the NewTek registration page! That's extremely helpful for folks like me who rather create than file.

gameguyag
06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Can I make an image backup of my 850 OS Partition and pop it in a bay if the current drive fails?