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Tony3d
05-08-2011, 05:07 AM
Hi all, I really want to upgrade Lightwave 9.6 to 10, but I'm really concerned about Newtek dropping support for Mac. I'd hate to invest another $500.00 just to see that happen. Newtek's total non communication on the Mac side really bothers me. For instance they'll see this post, but probably will do nothing to help reassure the community.

UnCommonGrafx
05-08-2011, 06:48 AM
I believe the guy in charge uses a mac. Well, he has stated as such.
Just a thought...

Tony3d
05-08-2011, 07:20 AM
I've even called them, and the answer I get is "well we haven't heard anything about dropping support for Mac", but they won't actually commit to saying that their fully committed to the platform. I just wish once someone from Newtek would be right upfront with the Mac people. They have a lot to learn about customer satisfaction. If I never communicated with my clients, I'd have no clients!

ingo
05-08-2011, 08:41 AM
Well i haven't heard anything Newtek about dropping support for Mac, so who cares. And if they do, there is still time to look around and go with the competition. I still work with 9.6 despite i have updated to 10, but 10 was just half-ready. Have i lost 400 bucks, maybe, but 10.1 is still in this price so i guess i haven't lost 400 bucks ..... be glad you dont work with C4D with its overpriced updates :D

Tony3d
05-08-2011, 08:48 AM
Well i haven't heard anything Newtek about dropping support for Mac, so who cares. And if they do, there is still time to look around and go with the competition. I still work with 9.6 despite i have updated to 10, but 10 was just half-ready. Have i lost 400 bucks, maybe, but 10.1 is still in this price so i guess i haven't lost 400 bucks ..... be glad you dont work with C4D with its overpriced updates :D

Ya. C4D is rediculous.

CaptainMarlowe
05-08-2011, 12:00 PM
As far as I can tell, development for Mac is going on. Mac specific issues are addressed with each new build.

OnlineRender
05-08-2011, 12:07 PM
tbh I dont know how Lw and mac works or even there licensing , but do you not get access to all builds , win and mac ? so for instance you can always run bootcamp if you run into problems

CaptainMarlowe
05-08-2011, 01:34 PM
yep, that's the other option

Tony3d
05-08-2011, 01:44 PM
Does it run just as well as it would on windows? I'm on a dual quad core early 2008 running at 2.8 gig per core.

rsfd
05-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Yes, LW-Win runs under Bootcamp as if you had a native PC.
(Just sometimes glitches with international keyboards shortcuts).
It's just not very convenient, but technically better than using a virtual machine (at least if it comes to render performance).
Your machine supports Win7-64x.

If you decide to go that route, be aware that you'll need at least "Windows7 Pro Edition" or higher, as all Editions below "Pro" recognize only one physical CPU!
(Home Premium e.g. would make your dual-quad-core a single-quad-core)
Me at least had to find out the hard way :cursin: :bangwall:

JEFFilm
05-08-2011, 10:05 PM
Hi all, I really want to upgrade Lightwave 9.6 to 10, but I'm really concerned about Newtek dropping support for Mac. I'd hate to invest another $500.00 just to see that happen. Newtek's total non communication on the Mac side really bothers me. For instance they'll see this post, but probably will do nothing to help reassure the community.

First the end of the VT and then silence from Newtek in regards to the future of SpeedEdit and Lightwave for the Mac.

I've been waiting to find out what the future of SpeedEdit is before upgrading and just hear silence. Now I'm looking at Mac Pros for FCP.

If they go much longer without talking about Lightwave for the Mac then it looks like I will have to go with the competition once again for my animation software. I guess Newtek isn't that interested anymore in keeping long time customers hooked on their products. :(

Tartiflette
05-09-2011, 04:01 AM
Although Bootcamp runs very well on any Mac Intel, taking this way as a "solution" to any LightWave/Mac related problem is just lame to say the least... :(

When a software editor says in its technical brochure that OS "X" (X being any system here, not Mac OS X specifically...)is supported, it should "really" be supported, and a customer who uses system "X" shouldn't have to hear (or read here in the forums...) something like : "Hey LightWave is dual license so just use it on Windows if you encounter a problem on Mac OS X !"

Not to say that the post wasn't just here to help, but it's frustrating at least (irritating would be more accurate as a feeling...) to read this kind of post. Perhaps choosing Mac OS X isn't a smart idea when it comes to 3D software, but it's a choice for many other reason, and some 3D software editors (even the one which is free !) manage to develop properly for Mac OS X, so it's not as if it was some sort of malediction or something like this...

Sorry for the rant, LightWave can be such a joy yo use when it's working properly that it's even more frustrating when you have to fight day after day to keep it as stable as possible, even for easy tasks, and when you see that it's a lot more usable on Windows... :(


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

meshpig
05-09-2011, 04:57 AM
I just wish once someone from Newtek would be right upfront with the Mac people.

The only major beef I have macside is with the auto select mouse. LW is particularly susceptible to it doing stuff you don't ask it to do; opening windows, changing settings, turning things on and off as you move it around and even when LW isn't on top. Crashing on some modelling commands when the freakin mouse hovers over the OK button:devil:.

Otherwise someone is onto it, the builds keep coming. Mostly they improve:)

Tony3d
05-09-2011, 06:50 AM
Why is it that almost every release I can remember people always complain about Layout rendering more slowly than the previous version? I understand 10 is slower yet. I thought rendering engines were supposed to get faster with each release. I was also wondering why there are no options for quicktime. They just disappeared. It really bothers me why Newtek doesn't chime in here, and give some answer to these questions. You know they are reading it. I just want some Newtek representative to say, YES WE ARE COMMITTED TO THE MAC PLATFORM OR NOT. The very fact that Newtek says nothing tell me not. My guess is Newtek is fed up with Apples interest in moving away from Intel in favor of ARM processors. Funny they just did this with the Power PC. This would require yet another recompiling of code, because Lightwave would no longer run on Arm processors. Remember how long it took to transition from Power PC to Intel? I still have issues with a couple application. Not sure I really want to go through this again either.

Markc
05-09-2011, 07:42 AM
I think your jumping the gun a bit with ARM processors replacing current Intel chips. From what I understand any transition to ARM (if at all) won't be for at least 2 years (and only then, probably entry level hardware will use them).

rsfd
05-09-2011, 07:50 AM
^ Tony,
please keep your feet on the ground.
Just because NT doesn't communicate doesn't automatically mean they plan to drop OSX support. The "QuickTime Options" problem is known for a very long time now (started with 9.6.1 OB 64x), and we just don't know what the reason is (if you didn't notice yet: you get Options, when LW is set to 32x mode). This can be either Apple or NT, we just don't know yet.
And I don't think you need to fear a switch to ARM processors in near future.
I know the "LW on Mac" situation has grown quite painful during the last couple of months, but I think we just have to take the situation as it is now. We will not change NT's communication behaviour, we can only solve our own problems as good as we try.

Tony3d
05-09-2011, 10:01 AM
I think your jumping the gun a bit with ARM processors replacing current Intel chips. From what I understand any transition to ARM (if at all) won't be for at least 2 years (and only then, probably entry level hardware will use them).

I don't think so. According to Apple they want to change over there MAcBook Pros first followed by all the desktops. That pretty much covers it. The transition will take place after ARM moves to 64 bit.

lino.grandi
05-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Lightwave for Mac is and will be fully supported. Apple still have to release a 64 bit version of Quicktime...that's why it is supported in LW32 bit only.

rsfd
05-09-2011, 11:38 AM
L… Apple still have to release a 64 bit version of Quicktime...

Thanks, Lino.
But does this mean that QuickTimeX (which is 64-bit on MacOS) doesn't provide the needed Output Options atm, or is NT waiting for the 64-bit version of Win-QuickTime to implement the Output Options for Win and OSX at approximately the same time?
Or is LW atm tied to QuickTime7, from which we will most likely never see a 64-bit version?

jwiede
05-09-2011, 01:17 PM
Thanks, Lino.
But does this mean that QuickTimeX (which is 64-bit on MacOS) doesn't provide the needed Output Options atm, or is NT waiting for the 64-bit version of Win-QuickTime to implement the Output Options for Win and OSX at approximately the same time?
Or is LW atm tied to QuickTime7, from which we will most likely never see a 64-bit version?
Yeah, I'd like to hear the answer to this as well, since Apple's made it rather clear that QTX _is_ the 64-bit QT update.

dsol
05-11-2011, 12:49 PM
Yeah, I'd like to hear the answer to this as well, since Apple's made it rather clear that QTX _is_ the 64-bit QT update.

QTX is the basis of the next-gen quicktime, but in terms of functionality it's incredibly basic compared to "classic" QT. Right now, it doesn't support third-party Codecs or plugins. But the new version of FCP due in June seems to indicate that some big changes have been underway and will no doubt surface soon.

In the meantime, you can write 64-bit apps that support quicktime. You have to do it via one of the new cocoa "wrapper" APIs for QT (instead of the original C-based ones in Carbon), and these will generate a 32bit Quicktime process that (invisibly to the user) runs in the background and handles all the regular quicktime functionality. This was the approach Adobe did with their 64bit mac versions of After Effects and Premiere, and it works very well.

EDIT: God knows when a 64bit version of Quicktime's going to come to Windows though, since I assume that those newer Cocoa APIs for QT aren't available to Windows quicktime devs. Hmmmm.....

dsol
05-11-2011, 12:51 PM
Oh - and to echo myself AGAIN. This ARM rumour is totally unsubstantiated. Stop believing everything you hear - the site that published the rumour really doesn't have that much of a track record!

rsfd
05-12-2011, 02:53 AM
thanks, dsol, for bringing in some more QT info!

(Just lately I thought my question caused a system freeze over at NT-HQ and wanted to wait for them to re-boot :D )

littlewaves
05-12-2011, 04:52 PM
lightwave has had shocking lack of support on the mac side since Chilton left.

It took me about 5 emails back and forth to make tech support understand what I meant when I said cmd+c should work as 'copy' on the mac and I'm not convinced they ever really got what I was on about.

It's all very well Rob Powers getting a macbook out at siggraph but clearly any enthusiasm he has for the platform hasn't filtered down to the people actually programming the software.

Unfortunately if you visit just about any forum of competing software you'll find people complaining about the mac version being woefully inadequate.

Iaian7
05-12-2011, 05:45 PM
lightwave has had shocking lack of support on the mac side since Chilton left.

Agreed, that was a sad, sad day for Lightwave. He was always a great voice for Newtek support and, IMHO, it wasn't just the mac users who lost out when he left. On the upside, he still works on mac software. Just not Lightwave.


Unfortunately if you visit just about any forum of competing software you'll find people complaining about the mac version being woefully inadequate.

As bad as Lightwave Mac is, it's not as bad as Messiah...in absolutely no way should a developer ever get away with releasing high-end software via Wine libraries. It's ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous.

Strangely, 3D Coat seems to have ported a Windows app+interface to OSX while retaining at least some semblance of stability...I didn't think it was possible, but they pulled it off. Not a huge fan of the UI, but at least it works! Most cross-platform initiatives are abysmal. Just look at Adobe's CS5 UI; it's so slow and non-responsive, they decided to make their own waiting cursor so Mac users wouldn't see the iconic spinning beachball 73% of the time. Ugh. Don't get me started on Adobe After Effects performance...though at least it uses more than one core now. :D

So what are we to do? If there's a mac-native 3D app that supports a flexible nodal system and comes at an affordable price, I'll switch. Really wish XSI wasn't Windows only...or so expensive, but the Windows-only thing kills its chances before I can even look at the price tag. ;D

archijam
05-13-2011, 01:24 AM
I have been running lw 9.6, 10 (and since this morning 10.1) with no real issues.

Guess I must be doing something wrong ;)

littlewaves
05-13-2011, 01:32 AM
I have been running lw 9.6, 10 (and since this morning 10.1) with no real issues.

Guess I must be doing something wrong ;)

wow that's a really helpful comment

CaptainMarlowe
05-13-2011, 05:02 AM
So what are we to do? If there's a mac-native 3D app that supports a flexible nodal system and comes at an affordable price, I'll switch. Really wish XSI wasn't Windows only...or so expensive, but the Windows-only thing kills its chances before I can even look at the price tag. ;D

Have you ever tried Cheetah3D (http://www.cheetah3d.com/) ? Not full featured perhaps, yet... instancing, particles, bone system, nodal workflow, 3D paint, native OS X 64 bits...

Phil
05-13-2011, 05:17 AM
As bad as Lightwave Mac is, it's not as bad as Messiah...in absolutely no way should a developer ever get away with releasing high-end software via Wine libraries. It's ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous.

I think that's harsh. There is no particular reason that Wine should not be acceptable, at least in the short term. Wine doesn't introduce a significant performance overhead in many cases (hence the use of Wine to provide recent games on OS X), and as an example of where it has been relevant : the ability to run LW on Linux via Wine (even with dongle support) has been welcomed by a number of Linux-based users even in these very forums.

I view the use of Wine as an enabler. I would much rather have something based on Wine than nothing at all; if the Wine version does well, it might work to convince the developer to make a truly native application.

The use of Wine also doesn't strike me as too dissimilar to the use of MainWin to bring XSI to Linux - another professional application. The absence of MainWin on Mac seems to be one of the blockers, historically, to getting XSI on Mac. Few people seem to rail against MainWin for XSI on Linux, for example.

I thought Fusion also used Wine to run on Linux.

All that written, I'd suggest that it's not always the underlying support system that has to be blamed for a poor implementation. ;)


Strangely, 3D Coat seems to have ported a Windows app+interface to OSX while retaining at least some semblance of stability...I didn't think it was possible, but they pulled it off. Not a huge fan of the UI, but at least it works! Most cross-platform initiatives are abysmal. Just look at Adobe's CS5 UI; it's so slow and non-responsive, they decided to make their own waiting cursor so Mac users wouldn't see the iconic spinning beachball 73% of the time. Ugh. Don't get me started on Adobe After Effects performance...though at least it uses more than one core now. :D

I'm not sure how this supports your argument against Wine, though, unless running the same version of Photoshop in Wine (assuming it runs at all, thanks to the DRM involved) results in even slower performance.


So what are we to do? If there's a mac-native 3D app that supports a flexible nodal system and comes at an affordable price, I'll switch. Really wish XSI wasn't Windows only...or so expensive, but the Windows-only thing kills its chances before I can even look at the price tag. ;D

XSI isn't Windows-only. It runs on Linux as well, via the MainWin support system mentioned earlier. Not that this helps you get it running on the Mac, admittedly.

There's always Houdini HD, if you can live with the limitations.

archijam
05-13-2011, 08:35 AM
wow that's a really helpful comment

What can I say, the sky is at the same height here as yesterday...

Helpful would have been .. complain about something for the sake of it?


edit: I believe I was as on topic as I could be .. I (apparently) don't doubt NT's commitment to mac, because it (for my use) works.

edit edit: plus I know about the ARM and QT64 issues but they are more sky is falling bollocks. the QT64 issue is around since forever, for most apps .. even if a fix is possible, i think this is not the priority (again, IMHHO ;) )

robertoortiz
05-13-2011, 08:38 AM
I have been running lw 9.6, 10 (and since this morning 10.1) with no real issues.

Guess I must be doing something wrong ;)
I have Lightwave 9.6 & X running on three machines right now with no real issues.

-R

littlewaves
05-13-2011, 10:06 AM
What can I say, the sky is at the same height here as yesterday...

Helpful would have been .. complain about something for the sake of it?


edit: I believe I was as on topic as I could be .. I (apparently) don't doubt NT's commitment to mac, because it (for my use) works.

edit edit: plus I know about the ARM and QT64 issues but they are more sky is falling bollocks. the QT64 issue is around since forever, for most apps .. even if a fix is possible, i think this is not the priority (again, IMHHO ;) )


Sorry for my slightly sarcastic comment and I'm very happy for you that you're not having problems. That's great!... for you.

However others including myself however have found problems with 9.6, 9.6.1 and LW10 (trial version in my case) and we'd like them fixed.

So we're not complaining about anything "for the sake of it".

To be honest my biggest complaint about Newtek is the appalling lack of communication and the months worth of "we have no information at this time" updates

Iaian7
05-13-2011, 10:44 AM
All that written, I'd suggest that it's not always the underlying support system that has to be blamed for a poor implementation. ;)

A very fair point! I do seem to be quite harsh on mac software developers at times - I'd like to claim it's because the standard is high, but maybe sometimes I'm just a little too picky. That said, this is my (and thousands of others) livelihood we're talking about - I think an artist should have the right to be picky about the tools they use (sadly, offset by the inability or unwillingness to pay exorbitant prices...).


There's always Houdini HD, if you can live with the limitations.

Yep, been looking into that. Just need the time to sit down and go through tutorials. I absolutely love Lightwave's nodal surfacing system (I'm not all bitterness here!), so any app that lets me work similarly through the entire app is a huge win. Just hoping Houdini complexity doesn't kill me in the process. :thumbsup:

(And yes, Lightwave Core may [or may not] deliver a great nodal workflow, which is why I purchased the upgrade last year...unfortunately, still waiting for something I can actually use)

archijam
05-13-2011, 03:26 PM
To be honest my biggest complaint about Newtek is the appalling lack of communication and the months worth of "we have no information at this time" updates

I agree that the all or nothing approach leads directly to frustration .. I would hope that some middle ground could be reached - a little information, more often.

I am in the Rhino WIP build process, and (also due to piracy concerns, and built in software deactivation), there are bi-monthly releases, and some updates. There is always something new, and I know when the build is coming ... I can admit I have only checked the update list twice - sometimes knowing progress is taking place is all that needs to happen (and here the mac build is WAY behind the pc one, but slowly getting better ..)

meshpig
05-14-2011, 02:54 AM
Does anyone else have the same problem with the UI where the cursor, just by moving it over say the surface editor turns the envelopes on, or up and down the side bar opens all and sundry, then on a tool dialogue when the OK button appears if you just happen to hover without clicking... zzzt quit. Also if you have LW open in the background windows will pop up in front of the current application. This is only in the 64 bit versions with or without a wireless mouse.

BlueApple
05-14-2011, 08:21 AM
Does anyone else have the same problem with the UI where the cursor, just by moving it over say the surface editor turns the envelopes on, or up and down the side bar opens all and sundry, then on a tool dialogue when the OK button appears if you just happen to hover without clicking... zzzt quit. Also if you have LW open in the background windows will pop up in front of the current application. This is only in the 64 bit versions with or without a wireless mouse.

After grabbing the LW10 Mac demo I immediately saw a host of cursor/UI/draw errors, but I don't recall specifically what they were. I have no clue if it was a graphics card issue or something else, but I've heard similar issues from other Mac users. My system specs are below if it's useful to you. Good luck.

meshpig
05-14-2011, 09:11 AM
After grabbing the LW10 Mac demo I immediately saw a host of cursor/UI/draw errors, but I don't recall specifically what they were. I have no clue if it was a graphics card issue or something else, but I've heard similar issues from other Mac users. My system specs are below if it's useful to you. Good luck.

Thanks. I'll knock up a screen vid which adequately demonstrates the problem. Doesn't occur in any other app apart from some instances where scroll zoom makes screen sizing uncontrollable... CS5 Pr and Ae.

Chuck
05-18-2011, 02:18 PM
Hi all, I really want to upgrade Lightwave 9.6 to 10, but I'm really concerned about Newtek dropping support for Mac. I'd hate to invest another $500.00 just to see that happen. Newtek's total non communication on the Mac side really bothers me. For instance they'll see this post, but probably will do nothing to help reassure the community.

We're completely committed to maintaining LightWave development on both platforms. We maintain full support for the Mac platform in our development and testing. We also provide newsletters and information for all our product users on a regular basis. If you feel that this particular forum section needs more attention from the technical support staff, customer services staff, or marketing and public relations staff, I can pass that along to the appropriate managers.

Chuck
05-18-2011, 02:25 PM
I believe the guy in charge uses a mac. Well, he has stated as such.
Just a thought...

Yes, Rob is primarily a Mac user, also is inseparable from his iPad. :)

Chuck
05-18-2011, 02:34 PM
If they go much longer without talking about Lightwave for the Mac then it looks like I will have to go with the competition once again for my animation software. I guess Newtek isn't that interested anymore in keeping long time customers hooked on their products. :(

How much more should we have to say than the fact that we issued Mac 10.0 just a few months ago when we released v10, and we're now providing Mac builds of v10.1 in our wide testing in HardCORE? We're speaking with product, right now, and that provides a lot more substance than mere words.

BlueApple
05-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Chuck,
I can't speak to the concerns of others regarding the Mac version of LightWave, but my concern rests on the status of 9.6.1 for Mac. Are you able to issue any updates as to the status of 9.6.1?*

*In the appropriate forum, of course :)

Tony3d
05-18-2011, 03:17 PM
We're completely committed to maintaining LightWave development on both platforms. We maintain full support for the Mac platform in our development and testing. We also provide newsletters and information for all our product users on a regular basis. If you feel that this particular forum section needs more attention from the technical support staff, customer services staff, or marketing and public relations staff, I can pass that along to the appropriate managers.

Hi Chuck, That's all I wanted to know. Do you know if the slow render speeds people are complaining about have been addressed in 10.1?

jwiede
05-19-2011, 07:01 AM
Agreed, that was a sad, sad day for Lightwave. He was always a great voice for Newtek support and, IMHO, it wasn't just the mac users who lost out when he left. On the upside, he still works on mac software. Just not Lightwave.
Aye, he's sorely missed to this day. OTOH, as you mentioned, he's happy and well working on his current projects.


As bad as Lightwave Mac is, it's not as bad as Messiah...in absolutely no way should a developer ever get away with releasing high-end software via Wine libraries. It's ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous.
Not sure I agree, w.r.t. "high-end" anyway. While I'd prefer a native solution, the CrossOver-based (e.g. WINE) solution works surprisingly well for what it is, but I agree it imposes significant limitations as well. Still, can't complain too much at that price...


Strangely, 3D Coat seems to have ported a Windows app+interface to OSX while retaining at least some semblance of stability...I didn't think it was possible, but they pulled it off. Not a huge fan of the UI, but at least it works! Most cross-platform initiatives are abysmal. Just look at Adobe's CS5 UI; it's so slow and non-responsive, they decided to make their own waiting cursor so Mac users wouldn't see the iconic spinning beachball 73% of the time. Ugh. Don't get me started on Adobe After Effects performance...though at least it uses more than one core now. :D

So what are we to do? If there's a mac-native 3D app that supports a flexible nodal system and comes at an affordable price, I'll switch. Really wish XSI wasn't Windows only...or so expensive, but the Windows-only thing kills its chances before I can even look at the price tag. ;D
(edited to stay within forum guidelines)

LW9.6 Mac seemed to finally be headed in a good direction w.r.t. addressing stability issues on Mac, but then LW10 Mac took a big step backwards. I've got decent hopes that 10.1 might recover much of the quality/stability ground lost by 10.0, but we'll have to wait and see.

Overall, I just do not see the kind of instability from the other Mac 3D packages that I hear some here mention. My experience is that most other 3D pkgs on Mac are as stable as their Windows equivalents -- Modo and LW are the main exceptions there, and Mac Modo has significantly caught up with Win Modo of late.

littlewaves
05-19-2011, 04:02 PM
How much more should we have to say than the fact that we issued Mac 10.0 just a few months ago when we released v10, and we're now providing Mac builds of v10.1 in our wide testing in HardCORE? We're speaking with product, right now, and that provides a lot more substance than mere words.

9.6.1 please.

Like was promised.

Like we paid for.

Like the very least you owe us.

Like you didn't know we'd ask.

rsfd
05-19-2011, 05:00 PM
+1

Just as reminder (from last DevUpd 23rd Sept. 2010):

NDA material from Open Beta removed by the moderators.
I at least would be happy to read just a few words about 9.6.1.
Otherwise this statement would be exactly this: mere words.

Chuck
05-24-2011, 05:52 AM
9.6.1 please.

Like was promised.

Like we paid for.

Like the very least you owe us.

Like you didn't know we'd ask.

No one paid for v9.6.1. People purchased v9, and for a v9.0 upgrade purchase, users have already received three years of additional free upgrade releases, each of which was notable for being larger in scope than the annual paid releases that other major 3D platforms provided, and which culminated in v9.6, which an overwhelming majority of users, including those in the top production environments, have described as our most stable release ever. This is an incredible amount of value for the purchase price of either an upgrade or a full seat, and no one else in the industry would do anything remotely similar, and certainly not at the v9.0 upgrade or full seat price.

NewTek has nothing to announce regarding v9.6.1 at this time, but I am as hopeful as any of you that we will all hear something soon. In the meantime, my personal apologies as well as apologies on behalf of NewTek for so wearing at your patience; there is nothing that I can share with you at this time, other than a little perspective.

littlewaves
05-24-2011, 05:54 AM
64bit for the mac was being touted by newtek as early as 2006 before I bought LW

So yes I paid for 9.6.1 as previous versions are not 64bit

Chuck
05-24-2011, 06:32 AM
64bit for the mac was being touted by newtek as early as 2006 before I bought LW

So yes I paid for 9.6.1 as previous versions are not 64bit

Just as a general note on forward-looking statements:

We make every effort to make it clear to potential purchasers that forward-looking statements about development are subject to change due to issues that may arise in development. We do the best we can to deliver on projections, but it is not always possible; we do ensure that in any case the customer gets a great value for their purchase price.

For folks buying an upgrade or a full seat, we have regularly advised that the purchase decision needs to be based on whether the existing tools in the product meet your current production needs, and if they don't then we understand that you may need to choose another tool for now.

People want us to talk about future development, and we have, so far, often given in to that demand. But the specifics of those projections are not what a purchase of today's product buys; the purchase buys today's product and as much future value as we can reasonably achieve. The specifics of that will, by nature, vary from projections to some degree.

Again, that was speaking in general terms about the concept, and is not to be taken as an "announcement" specific to any current case under discussion. When there is specific news, that will be posted by appropriate staff in the appropriate locations.

littlewaves
05-24-2011, 11:10 AM
[snip ... (Mod.)]

Newtek has been promising 64bit on the mac since at least 2004. Granted apple made it difficult with all the cocoa/carbon stuff but really that excuse got old several years ago now.

biliousfrog
05-24-2011, 11:13 AM
Newtek has been promising 64bit on the mac since at least 2004. Granted apple made it difficult with all the cocoa/carbon stuff but really that excuse got old several years ago now.

I can see a pattern forming.

Sensei
05-24-2011, 11:18 AM
No, not blaming Chilton. If the most experienced (the only?) Macintosh developer is leaving team, it's obvious that promises to deliver something will be delayed..
Learning new person LWSDK, core application and Macintosh programming takes time.

littlewaves
05-24-2011, 11:23 AM
No, not blaming Chilton. If the most experienced (the only?) Macintosh developer is leaving team, it's obvious that promises to deliver something will be delayed..
Learning new person LWSDK, core application and Macintosh programming takes time.

you reckon they actually hired a replacement?

I found myself explaining the concept of cmd+c working like ctrl+c for 'copy' on the mac to tech support not that long ago.

They didn't get it. There was also a problem which I specifically asked them to try out on a Mac and they weren't able to do that for some reason. Reading between the lines I'd say Chilton was never replaced.

While he was here the Mac side although not perfect did at least get better. Since he went it's been pretty dark in the Mac forums

OnlineRender
05-24-2011, 11:43 AM
I can see a pattern forming.

Stop stirring you,I'm the only gay in the village

dysamoria
05-24-2011, 12:13 PM
I don't think so. According to Apple they want to change over there MAcBook Pros first followed by all the desktops. That pretty much covers it. The transition will take place after ARM moves to 64 bit.

this is only a rumor. apple have not stated any such thing. otherwise please cite your source.

dysamoria
05-24-2011, 12:16 PM
Unfortunately if you visit just about any forum of competing software you'll find people complaining about the mac version being woefully inadequate.

ZBrush, Carrara, Modo... yep. I'm about ready to send one of those useless emails to Steve Jobs asking him why the Mac platform is utterly shafted by 3D content development tools...

Phil
05-24-2011, 12:19 PM
You forgot Maya. Autodesk managed a transition to 64-bit that has been, for me, painless. I hear the modo transition is a little...bumpy

Still, I guess Mac LW users are forced to update for 10.x for 64-bit. There's no positive message in Chuck's posts that I can see.

rsfd
05-24-2011, 03:00 PM
you reckon they actually hired a replacement?…

Afair, they definitively did not.
With LW-Core coming, it was communicated that platform independent development will be much easier, so that a specialized Mac developer isn't needed anymore.
(Well, being a HC member, I could comment this a bit further. But that would be risky business).


…Still, I guess Mac LW users are forced to update for 10.x for 64-bit. …
I start to see it that way too. Isn't what was promised though. And LW-10 Mac up to par with its Win counterpart should be seen as a forward looking statement.

eblu
05-24-2011, 03:41 PM
buddy of mine recently went from PC -> mac. he is a LW user first and has been for... probably 12 or so years.
he's never at any point in history used mac LW in any real way before, and I have had a few short discussions with him, about his experiences.

for a LW user, it boils down to this: mac LW is intolerably slow, always behind in performance compared to the PC LW, in features, and speed. We see every day, some other mac 3d platform striding where mac LW stumbles, so we know its not the hardware/os/somebody else.

When you buy LW for mac, you do so because the mac gives you something you can't get on the pc (Most likely some kind of synergy with your workflow), and you get used to the Lack of parity in Mac LW. this has always been the case, and as far as I can see into the future, Will always be the case.

I feel terrible for my buddy, and I was floored when he told me he had moved to Mac LW. For him it was like stepping backwards 2 - 5 years. But for me, I've developed habits that work around the lack of any real time playback (barring a render), of usable DOF, of decent mesh deforming performance, of various UI flaws both visual and workflow oriented.
I have developed these habits, and I can get work done, with LW. and thats the bottom line.

ps: I've also taught myself Cinema4d and maya, because that makes me more appealing to my clients, and it makes my work relevant no matter what Newtek does.

dysamoria
05-24-2011, 06:15 PM
Chuck,
I can't speak to the concerns of others regarding the Mac version of LightWave, but my concern rests on the status of 9.6.1 for Mac. Are you able to issue any updates as to the status of 9.6.1?*

*In the appropriate forum, of course :)

yeah.... exactly. speak with product... elsewhere. currently, I'm speaking by withholding future money...

Iaian7
05-25-2011, 09:06 AM
I found myself explaining the concept of cmd+c working like ctrl+c for 'copy' on the mac to tech support not that long ago.

This explains a lot, I guess, since the command+c bugs I reported 4 years ago are actually significantly worse in 10.x...just try to copy/paste a node in the shader node editor, I dare you. Duplicates your geometry instead. And I documented/reported/fogged this years ago.


for a LW user, it boils down to this: mac LW is intolerably slow, always behind in performance compared to the PC LW, in features, and speed. We see every day, some other mac 3d platform striding where mac LW stumbles, so we know its not the hardware/os/somebody else.

Man, that's really discouraging! :( I just assumed Lightwave was naturally unstable and painfully slow (heck, I can't even add follower delays to more than 20 bones, or Layout completely crashes).


When you buy LW for mac, you do so because the mac gives you something you can't get on the pc (Most likely some kind of synergy with your workflow), and you get used to the Lack of parity in Mac LW. this has always been the case, and as far as I can see into the future, Will always be the case.

Amen to that - I build my own tools in OSX, from lipsync keyframe utilities to graphics processing via Quartz and custom CIfilters. I've done in several evenings (with minimal programming experience) what could take weeks for dedicated Windows developers (or so I've been told by windows developers). As an artist, the ability to expand my own toolset is beyond invaluable, and that's just the start of a very, very long list of reasons why Windows isn't an option (no, not even dual boot).


ps: I've also taught myself Cinema4d and maya, because that makes me more appealing to my clients, and it makes my work relevant no matter what Newtek does.

I've just started watching Houdini tutorials, and so far I'm loving it...exactly what I've been looking for! Nodes somehow make sense to me so much more than layer systems. Or, more specifically, Lightwave's utterly inane displacement workflow...which is all the more frustrating since I really love the nodal surfacing system (so yes, I don't hate Lightwave entirely :D).

eblu
05-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Ianian7,
don't get me wrong... the other 3d platforms have their own unique challenges as well. Its just that, on the windows side... LW isn't this way, or at least its better. And for every issue mac LW users face, there's at least one example out there, that disproves the assertion that the mac itself is to blame. Its become clear to me, that while Newtek is committed to producing a Mac LW... they are not committed to redesigning the app so that the mac version gets attention first. And frankly, from a business standpoint that doesn't sound like it makes sense anyway.

thats ok. my future is not contingent on LW. If it works for me, i will use it. LW is after all just one of the tools in my tool belt.

most mac LW users, have a variety of skills, and really fit into the generalist category, anyway. ;) we make the whole widget.

Nicolas Jordan
05-26-2011, 01:43 PM
In my opinion if Newtek announced thier intention to release 9.6.1 they should have followed through and released it. At this point it seems obvious to me that there is no intention of releasing a 9.6.1 bug fix released for those who have not yet upgraded to 10 since 10.1 is in beta and on the way. It is true that we have received a huge amount of value for our money in the 9.x series of releases but it seems a bit odd to announce a product patch and never have it materialize. It really makes me wonder if Core as a product will also be subject to a similar fate even though some of the tech from Core is currently materializing in the Lightwave 10 series. I guess only time will tell.

mattc
05-26-2011, 11:25 PM
Unless, of course, the amount of effort to produce said patch has become economically un-viable.

Hence, 'forward-looking statements'.

3dworks
05-27-2011, 03:37 AM
maybe i'm not the average mac user, but i'd like to take up the cudgels for LW on macs.

i'm using LW 10.x UB64 on mac OSX for quite some time here, and apart of some known but not showstopping bugs (the reproducible ones i reported in fogbugz, a few other are GUI related and less clear) all i can say is that it works in a fast and reliable way. i'm switching to LW on windows 7 on the same machine frequently because still working with the 'old school' fprime workflow when having to update older viz scenes here, so i can compare the speed and reliability side by side.

some of the known bugs are being resolved with 10.1, and as far as render speed is concerned, there is not a big difference here when running LW on OSX 10.6.7 or windows 7 pro on my machines. there is one mac specific bug concerning multithread render efficiency when certain surfaces contain a gradient, but it is about to be resolved in the current beta builds.

as for the overall stability, i had few crashes with LW in the last months, 90% related to VPR. not using it much anyway since then. on the other side, i'm probably not a typical LW allround user: i'm not using modeler as much as others, but mainly doing huge archviz projects as stills. no character rigging, not much animations, not much hypervoxels, etc. i'm also using two 3rd party render plugins, maxwell and kray and both behave well and are stable under mac. that said, LW10 (and also the last beta of 9.6.1) are the most stable and reliable mac versions of LW ever.

one really bad development for me on the mac side was definitely the missing of fprime support, as steve worley will never support fprime for mac on any version beyond 9.6.x. blame NT or blame steve, in the end it was dropped because of the endless LW mac cocoa/64 bit transition saga in the last years. when comparing LW10's VPR to fprime on windows, it is very slow on complex scenes and without floating windows and the other workflow goodness it's not very useful in production for me. btw., maxwell's FIRE previewer is much faster than VPR, but it is of course bound to the maxwell render engine and it's material system which does not support all of LW's features (even if some more of them could be supported in the next future, hint, hint)

as for NT's mac support: i don't see the dedicated care which chilton did provide when he still was with NT, but i don't see a 'lack' of mac development on the other side, currently. maybe it's just a matter of perception - less communication from NT on this subject does not automatically mean less care for the product or the code, imho.

cheers

markus

rsfd
05-27-2011, 04:15 AM
LScript on Mac has several issues, as you surely remember the long standing sIBL bug starting with the very first OB build.
Split Bones is broken since this build too.
My only bug reports that got fixes were the ones which also applied to the Win platform.
Just now comes the fix for sIBL-Mac, nearly two years later, as Blochi finally nailed it down to an LScript bug in LW-Mac.
I doubt, that NT ever looked into this issue and it seems to me more and more, that LW-Mac runs under very low priority.

archijam
05-27-2011, 07:47 AM
Markus - I can back you up on your assesment - but I am also primarily a arch-vis user.

No big complaints from me for the current 10.1 release.


It's a pity you're not using VPR so much, since it was specifically for you they added clip maps ;)

3dworks
05-27-2011, 09:51 AM
Markus - I can back you up on your assesment - but I am also primarily a arch-vis user.

No big complaints from me for the current 10.1 release.


It's a pity you're not using VPR so much, since it was specifically for you they added clip maps ;)

LOL, having them added to opengl first would have been more useful indeed :D but who knows, maybe we will see this as well, one day? but anyway, it's not a mac specific thing...

just to clarify: i'm not trying at all to bash VPR - i see it is working excellently on a complex rigged character (as in lino's the demo videos) or on a cool animated logo. but if you add several layers of reflective and transparent surfaces to a complex scene scene and render it in GI mode, well, then you have VPR reduced to somewhat absolutely useless for scene previewing. it was exactly here where fprime did shine, also because you could easily resize and zoom in/out the floating window at any time to keep the calculations on a lower profile. also one must take into account that any unbiased engine will be in advantage with such scenes...

cheers

markus

Eric Walters
05-29-2011, 11:53 PM
Thanks Chuck
From my perspective I had far more problems with Vue Infinite(Mac) than LW 9.6 Mac- other than running out of RAM. The 64 bit Beta mostly works for me- I am using a 2010 version- I should see if there are any updates!



No one paid for v9.6.1. People purchased v9, and for a v9.0 upgrade purchase, users have already received three years of additional free upgrade releases, each of which was notable for being larger in scope than the annual paid releases that other major 3D platforms provided, and which culminated in v9.6, which an overwhelming majority of users, including those in the top production environments, have described as our most stable release ever. This is an incredible amount of value for the purchase price of either an upgrade or a full seat, and no one else in the industry would do anything remotely similar, and certainly not at the v9.0 upgrade or full seat price.

NewTek has nothing to announce regarding v9.6.1 at this time, but I am as hopeful as any of you that we will all hear something soon. In the meantime, my personal apologies as well as apologies on behalf of NewTek for so wearing at your patience; there is nothing that I can share with you at this time, other than a little perspective.

Chuck
06-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Dear LightWave Mac Users:

This is to bring you up to date on the status of LightWave v9.6.1 Development. Today, we are happy to let you know that we have posted the final build, 1555, which uses your permanent v9 key. The download is available in the v9 Updates section of your My Downloads page in your Registration account. There is important information for Mac users regarding hardware keys and the Mac 64-bit application in the LW961_Readme.txt file, which is also available for download.

NewTek appreciates the participation of so many LightWave users during the Open Beta period, and apologizes for the lengthy delay in bringing closure to the v9.6.1 Open Beta.

NewTek 3D Group

Scazzino
06-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Thanks Chuck!
Thanks to NewTek too for releasing 9.6.1 for the Mac. :beerchug:

Daphne
06-17-2011, 01:59 PM
Maybe I am just weird but I have had macs for a very long time and I use LW on both my desktop and laptop and I'm happy.

Two weeks ago, I had a problem with my dongle and licensing. After emailing Newtek, I received a very helpful email back from Roy. He sent a new dongle and we exchanged multiple emails regarding my issue. After the new dongle arrived, I called in and Roy answered the phone. It was almost closing time for them yet he was one of the most helpful and patient people I've ever dealt with on any customer support issue. I am sure he worked overtime but never said a word, he was more concerned about making sure I was up and running. He was super and this wasn't the first time I've called and received super service from them.

I now have version 10 on both machines but can't comment on it since I haven't tried it yet. I use Modeler a LOT and have been happy with 9.6. I will continue to use Layout 9.6 primarily since I need FPrime. I wasn't aware 10 would never be supported though.

Upon emailing Worley about FPrime and 10 last week, I received the following:
"LW 10 on the Mac isn't compatible with FPrime due to the new GUI library they've switched to. LW 10 on Windows is fine, though."

I really need FPrime but I have no intention of switching to Windows.

I believe NT will continue to support us and am also one of the ones that purchased Core as soon as there was an option to do so.

Thanks for releasing 9.6.1 for us!

Markc
06-17-2011, 03:31 PM
I know this has been covered many times over the years, but is there an idiot's guide (coz i'm an idiot :D) how to install 9.6.1 without messing up my 9.6 install (just in case some things don't work nice in 9.6.1)? I'm happy with how 9.6 is and don't want to mess up the configs etc!

rsfd
06-17-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm afraid, but I cannot applause here after the experiences of the last couple of months.
I appreciate that NT decided to make 9.6.1 available to all users instead of burying it.
And I appreciate all the work that NT had put into LW-Mac. I just don't know what's happening atm at NT-HQ. I hope, they'll come up with some convincing news soon,
but since I joined HC I needed to upgrade my modo license to get a modeling/UV-ing application able to handle high-poly meshes on OSX, needed to buy the recoil plugin to get basic Hardbody/Bullet dynamics, and fall back in LW to the F9 render previews, as VPR crashes way too often for me on nodal surfaces. My FPrime license is of low value too, either for 9.6.1 and 10.

Sensei
06-17-2011, 03:35 PM
I know this has been covered many times over the years, but is there an idiot's guide (coz i'm an idiot :D) how to install 9.6.1 without messing up my 9.6 install (just in case some things don't work nice in 9.6.1)? I'm happy with how 9.6 is and don't want to mess up the configs etc!

AFAIK special needs are only required for Windows users (using -c parameter), but on Macintosh it's not needed..
Never had any problems with other LW version messing up configs on Mac.

rsfd
06-17-2011, 03:37 PM
@Markc
place a folder "Preferences" inside the 9.6.1 application folder.
You can also place this folder at "/Applications/LightWave3D 9.6.1/SharedSupport/Preferences".
9.6.1 will write it's own prefs inside this folder.

If you place the license file at /Library/Preferences/LightWave3D/license.key
(where the "LightWave3D" folder most likely needs to be created manually)
this license is shared between 9.6 and 9.6.1 and is also available to all user accounts on your machine

Markc
06-17-2011, 03:40 PM
That's cool, thanks guys :thumbsup:

daforum
06-19-2011, 03:01 AM
Can I ask something too, just to clarify?

On my MacBookPro will LW 9.6.1 run with the same dongle I have been using LW9.6
but if I want 64bit I will have to exchange my dongle and update my drivers?
Or do I have to exchange my dongle just to run LW 9.6.1?

meshpig
06-19-2011, 05:05 AM
I know this has been covered many times over the years, but is there an idiot's guide (coz i'm an idiot :D) how to install 9.6.1 without messing up my 9.6 install (just in case some things don't work nice in 9.6.1)? I'm happy with how 9.6 is and don't want to mess up the configs etc!

Um, it's a Drag & Drop so it won't affect 9.6. The same preference files will apply to 9.6.1.

meshpig
06-19-2011, 05:18 AM
I really need FPrime but I have no intention of switching to Windows.


FPrime doesn't work period on mac 64 imo and they won't even let you sell the license on. The VPR in 10 however, (though not quite as sophisticated yet) is actually by far more convenient.

rsfd
06-19-2011, 10:44 AM
Can I ask something too, just to clarify?

On my MacBookPro will LW 9.6.1 run with the same dongle I have been using LW9.6
but if I want 64bit I will have to exchange my dongle and update my drivers?
Or do I have to exchange my dongle just to run LW 9.6.1?

What type of Dongle do you have?
The "Duo" Dongles report different Dongle-IDs depending on 32-bit or 64-bit application.
(9.6 or 9.6.1 in 32-bit mode reports a different Dongle-ID than 9.6.1 in 64-bit mode).
Therefore you need a second unlock key for that 64-bit ID to be able to use 9.6 and 9.6.1 (32) together with 9.6.1 (64).
It's because the Duo Dongle uses the Eve3 framework in 32-bit and the Sentinel framework in 64-bit.
The Sentinel Dongle (mostly black and red) uses always the Sentinel framework and therefore reports the same ID no matter if 32-bit or 64-bit.

Launch LW 9.6, 9.6.1 (32) and 9.6.1 (64) and choose "About LW" to read out the reported Dongle-ID, which is called Product Lock in the "About"-Box.

As LW holds the Driver frameworks inside the application bundles, you don't need to update or install any driver software.

Result:
the Duo *should* work, but needs one 32-bit Unlock Key and one 64-bit Unlock Key (for the other ID).
But lately, NT changed the Duo of another user free of charge to a Sentinel.
I guess, it's just the easiest solution and more future proof.