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View Full Version : Arrrgh! This flip polygon thing is driving me insane!



Pixelight
04-28-2011, 09:10 AM
What's with this flip polygon thing in LW? It seems anything I try to do in LW takes much more effort than anything i have ever tried. Any simple little task is so unintuitive and complex. No matter what i try, NOTHING ever works at first trial. Now I'm just trying to model a simple box with one open side and have the walls being thick instead of paper thin. So I thought, this should be easy. Make a box, bevel the front face edge and then extrude the middle part in. This should give me an open box with thick walls. Guess what, it doesn't! Then I thought, is this the annoying case of flipped polygons again, which buy the way, i have never seen till i got to LW. Then I flip the polys and it doesn't look right either. So please enlighten me what am I doing wrong even when doing something so simple as a box which is basically a primitive?

Thanks.


P.S. I'm on the brink of giving up on LW. I'm starting to ask if the low price and good render, which many actually feel is not even that good, is worth it all this unnecessary complexity. Really frustrating to have to ask for instructions every step of the way even for the most simple things and even after having gone through the NewTek tutorials and several other ones!
So glad I'm trying the demo before forking money for it. Not looking promising so far.

arsad
04-28-2011, 09:32 AM
just use bevel instead of extrude and you are good to go. One more tip: use the right mouse button once you made the first bevel to reactivate the bevel tool (and confirm the first bevel) then this is a matter of 2 seconds. No flipped poly!

rcallicotte
04-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Pixelight, William Vaughan's tutorials are helpful - http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/24hours_training.php

He talks about some of the things arsad is mentioning here.

3DGFXStudios
04-28-2011, 09:41 AM
Have you installed the right drivers? I've had some issues with flipping geometry with my cooked videocard. So it might be your hardware? Some times polys flip but that's only if you model it badly....

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 09:46 AM
Yeah, funnily enough the bevel tool works. How's is that beveling and not extruding?

Tobian
04-28-2011, 10:29 AM
The 'extrude' tool is a tool designed specifically to take a 2d (one sided) polygon and make it into a deep, 3d, object. The confusion you are having is it's not useful for extruding out from a surface. For this you will need to use bevel, extend, multishift or smooth shift, depending on what you want to do (there are cases where all of these tools are useful!). Extrude also assumes that you will extrude away from the face of the normal, so if you try and use it for the thing you suggested, you will not only end up with an unwanted internal polygon, but all flipped polygons too.

The Lightwave specific term you want is a 'shift'. this is where you take a polygon or cluster of polygons and shift them away from the surface. Smooth shift, bevel and multishift (the most powerful, but slow to use on big meshes) all will do a shift operation.

the Extrude tool is confusingly named only if you are expecting it to work like other software. It does exactly what it's supposed too, just not what you expected :)

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the in depth explanation.



the Extrude tool is confusingly named only if you are expecting it to work like other software. It does exactly what it's supposed too, just not what you expected :)

Can you imagine if Ford decided to name the gears in their cars according to what they thought was right? They would for example name the Reverse gear as the 1st gear because their reasoning is that this is always the first gear you use when you back up from your garage. So the 1st gear would be Reverse and the 2nd gear would the first gear and so on.
Can you imagine how many accidents from people who are used to drive ALL the other cars which have the gears named as what they actually do instead of what the manufacturer thinks is right?

Dictionary definitions:

Extrude= Force, press, or push.

Bevel= slant on an edge.

:D

THREEL
04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
Yeah, funnily enough the bevel tool works. How's is that beveling and not extruding?

Hey Adam! How's it going? Don't give up on :lwicon:! Once you learn the ins-and-outs, it's a great tool. I sent you a model of a box with a break down in layers, so you can see what's going on. Beveling is a great answer for this. You can use Extrude, but if you go the wrong way, your polygons will be flipped in the wrong direction.

Minus all the mental errors, sorry the brain is not quite awake, yet, this took me about 3 minutes to do.

Here's a couple ways of doing this:

Layer 1: Made a box (Shift+X) and sat it on the ground (F3).
Layer 2: Selected the top of the box and beveled (b) in with inset.
Layer 3: With the inset top still selected, beveled again, but with a -shift
and zero inset.
Layer 4: hit the Tab key to Subpatch. Looks more like a cup than a box
at the moment.
Layer 5: Un-subpatch with the Tab key and shored up the edges with
Bandsaw Pro. Then, Subpatched (Tab) again.
Layer 6: Blank.
Layer 7: Copy and Paste Layer 1.
Layer 8: Use Bandsaw Pro to shore up the edges.
Layer 9: Bevel with a -Shift. I, also, used Bandsaw Pro to make the edges
a little tighter. Also, I'd hit the Tab key to toggle Subpatching.

As you can see, there's more than one way to do things. Do loose heart and don't be afraid to try different ways of modeling. Keep watching those tutorials, and don't forget about the manual.

Happy modeling!!!

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
But in all seriousness, if I will have to "decode" every single tool instead of just going by what their name implies they do, as based on the English language, I don't think I will ever get out of this mess. What is the point of naming tools with words that have a meaning if that meaning means nothing for what the tool does? Give them fanatsy names then. Like the Bevel tool, or sorry, let me rephrase that. The tool that bevels, is called Super Dragonfly. The tool that extrudes is called Golden Ruby etc:neener:

Snosrap
04-28-2011, 11:18 AM
Dictionary definitions:

Extrude= Force, press, or push.

Bevel= slant on an edge.

:D

Core corrects this.:thumbsup:

THREEL
04-28-2011, 11:29 AM
Core corrects this.:thumbsup:


That's cool, Tim! I'm still old schooling this with v. 8.5. :D When it comes to bevel in :lwicon:, you need to think more along the lines of CAD, at least in the case of AutoCAD. If I had 2 non-parallel lines that I would want to bring together, to a sharp point, I'd just Fillet, or Chamfer them with a Zero radius. That's kind of like using bevel with a +/- shift and a Zero inset.

prometheus
04-28-2011, 11:33 AM
thickener is a good tool to add thickness to everything.

http://www.blochi.com/gfx/thickener_en.html
http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=9c812eed
only in 32 bit thou.


Edit...or try thicken D-storm plugin...
http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dstorm.co.jp%2Fdsproducts%2Flw9 %2FFreePlugins%2FModeler%2FThicken.html
Michael

Tobian
04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Ok then Pixelight - since 'extrude' extrudes, what would you suggest they call that tool then? Thing is it does 'extrude' it's just not doing the kind of extrude you want, and to save internal confusion, tools which do that are called something else, which is a 'shift' operation in LW. So they create a shift-only tool, and call it 'extrude, they will have to then rename the existing extrude tool to be something else. It's going to get confusing no matter what!

Unfortunately LW was designed before the idea of context sensitive toolsets were available. So they have a tool for each function, though some tools can do multiple functions. To put that into Modeler would require a huge amount of work now, as everything works that way in Modeler! Extrude does extrude, it just doesn't contextually extrude from a face, in the way you want.

Sorry to say this but you are going to have a case of the angries during your time in LW if you can't accept that it's just a bit different. All tools have their quirks and oddnesses, and don't work in a way in which you expect. So you either have to give up or learn the toolset. Modeler may or may not get updates, but it's more likely Core modelling will get the main share of the love in the near future, as they haven't done anything to Modeler's workflow for some time. Plus it would also break everything for those of us who are quite used to it's quirks! :)

banjaxedmdt
04-28-2011, 11:45 AM
thickener is a good tool to add thickness to everything.

http://www.blochi.com/gfx/thickener_en.html
http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=9c812eed
only in 32 bit thou.


Edit...or try thicken D-storm plugin...
http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dstorm.co.jp%2Fdsproducts%2Flw9 %2FFreePlugins%2FModeler%2FThicken.html
Michael

I've been using Thickener in 64bit modeler with no trouble.

prometheus
04-28-2011, 11:54 AM
I've been using Thickener in 64bit modeler with no trouble.

I didnīt know that, I usally try many plugins in 64 bit, but most fails if it says 32 bit...great to know, even thou I just mostly fire up 32 bit versions.

And you know..It works in lightwave 10 too...nice, I wish it was a true plugin instead of lscript thou, to be able to rotate around the model while having it open.

Michael

Ztreem
04-28-2011, 01:40 PM
It's called bevel tool because it makes bevels of selected surfaces. It has a feature that enable the user to set the size and angle of the bevel interactivly and this makes the tool suitable for alot of other things like make the operation explained in this thread. Just because you use a tool for something else then it was designed to do doesn't mean that the naming is wrong.

GraphXs
04-28-2011, 03:20 PM
Ya can always rename Smooth Shift or Multi-Shift to Extrude Face(s). The funny thing is LW actually IMO has the name correct.
-"Extrude" from the original face, thus leaving the original polys alone. (use for all 2D polys)
-Smooth "Shift" shifts the polygons away from the normal.
-Bevel" per-poly shift and inset

but sure...Autodesk they have it correct. LOL!

Dexter2999
04-28-2011, 03:24 PM
Fighting the interface and complaining about it won't make it easier to learn or understand.

Just makes you sound like a troll.

probiner
04-28-2011, 04:23 PM
It's like dodgy says in it's signature
"Push the software, don't let it push YOU!"
It's just sometimes you lose :D And it's nice to find ppl that lose too so you can complain and be understood...

Pixelight, trying a new software is trying a new mindset. Until you get in and your fingers remember it all it will take a while. Isn't that with all software? Oh ok, LW ppl might be more resilient then... :D

Anyway there's plenty of small tutorials to follow that will help with that mindset and the kind ppl here in the forum usually give great hints and sometimes almost the whole thing. So enjoy them.

jeric_synergy
04-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Fighting the interface and complaining about it won't make it easier to learn or understand.
Especially when you can rename it yourself.

EG: I renamed...?what? "Move Plus"?... to "RMB-NormalMv" just to remind myself that it can do that.

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 05:13 PM
Hey Adam! How's it going? Don't give up on :lwicon:! Once you learn the ins-and-outs, it's a great tool. I sent you a model of a box with a break down in layers, so you can see what's going on. Beveling is a great answer for this. You can use Extrude, but if you go the wrong way, your polygons will be flipped in the wrong direction.

Minus all the mental errors, sorry the brain is not quite awake, yet, this took me about 3 minutes to do.

Here's a couple ways of doing this:

Layer 1: Made a box (Shift+X) and sat it on the ground (F3).
Layer 2: Selected the top of the box and beveled (b) in with inset.
Layer 3: With the inset top still selected, beveled again, but with a -shift
and zero inset.
Layer 4: hit the Tab key to Subpatch. Looks more like a cup than a box
at the moment.
Layer 5: Un-subpatch with the Tab key and shored up the edges with
Bandsaw Pro. Then, Subpatched (Tab) again.
Layer 6: Blank.
Layer 7: Copy and Paste Layer 1.
Layer 8: Use Bandsaw Pro to shore up the edges.
Layer 9: Bevel with a -Shift. I, also, used Bandsaw Pro to make the edges
a little tighter. Also, I'd hit the Tab key to toggle Subpatching.

As you can see, there's more than one way to do things. Do loose heart and don't be afraid to try different ways of modeling. Keep watching those tutorials, and don't forget about the manual.

Happy modeling!!!

Thanks for taking the time to describe it in so much detail.
Very helpful.:thumbsup:

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 05:16 PM
thickener is a good tool to add thickness to everything.

http://www.blochi.com/gfx/thickener_en.html
http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=9c812eed
only in 32 bit thou.


Edit...or try thicken D-storm plugin...
http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dstorm.co.jp%2Fdsproducts%2Flw9 %2FFreePlugins%2FModeler%2FThicken.html
Michael


Aha! Thanks.
I have to get up and running on all the plug-ins for LW, which I'm having the impression there are many. A whole load actually. Does anybody still use the standard tools in LW?:D
I kid I kid. But there really seems to be a lot of plug-ins. The more the merrier I guess.

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 05:22 PM
Ya can always rename Smooth Shift or Multi-Shift to Extrude Face(s).

Yeah, but you need to know what they are before you rename them :thumbsup:



The funny thing is LW actually IMO has the name correct.
-"Extrude" from the original face, thus leaving the original polys alone. (use for all 2D polys)
-Smooth "Shift" shifts the polygons away from the normal.
-Bevel" per-poly shift and inset

but sure...Autodesk they have it correct. LOL!

+Maxon as well. So since Autodesk owns all the main apps, you add Maxon and this amounts to what, 95% of the market? :D

I think you think it makes more sense because you already know it.
But it's a moot point anyway. I need to learn the tools regardless of what they are called.

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 05:30 PM
Fighting the interface and complaining about it won't make it easier to learn or understand.

I'm not fighting it at all, but rather trying to comprehend it and how and why it does things they way it does. But I guess Tobian explained it pretty well:


Unfortunately LW was designed before the idea of context sensitive toolsets were available.

I always heard LW was old school and archaic and in desperate need of a re-design. I just didn't expect it to be that... awkward.

Besides it's my right to complain. Specially when I'm investing my time on it and a lot of it and also am to invest money.


Just makes you sound like a troll.

Only if you're a fanboy. Sorry, but no program is perfect.

Tobian
04-28-2011, 05:38 PM
Renaming them will only be sensible if you actually know what they are and what they do beforehand. It would be disastrous to try and fight the interface so early on, as you will confuse yourself when watching any tutorials.

Has to be said the reverse of your argument is also true: You think it doesn't make sense because you are familiar with something else. I cut my teeth properly on LW, and the tools made sense to me, as I learned them. You are fighting it because you are used to tools with different names, which do what you want... Moving from any software to another is always a translation process. When I go to new software I am thinking *I want to do this, where is the tool which does this function* and often it's oddly named or in a weird place, but it's just about learning that. Just because something has become default or convergent doesn't make it 'right' it just makes it a standard, and LW is hardly the only app out there that is non-standard! :)

Feel free to complain if you want, but try to remember no forum user made the software the way it is (unless that forum user is a LW programmer :D) So don't blame us when we are trying to help you solve the problem!

Lightwolf
04-28-2011, 05:39 PM
But it's a moot point anyway. I need to learn the tools regardless of what they are called.
Well, one could argue that is was called bevel because at the time it was added hardly any other app had something like it (if they even existed). I.e. none of the big three apps existed at that time (and while LW 6.0 was said to be a re-write, it was more like a refresh at most).

Which also explains to a large degree why you can't expect it to behave like those other applications. It's quite a different history and thus logic (and some argue superior in certain cases).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
04-28-2011, 05:41 PM
Besides it's my right to complain. Specially when I'm investing my time on it and a lot of it and also am to invest money.
If you were my intern (which is an entirely different situation) you'd have to earn that right.
Step 1: Read the manual. Completely ;)

:bday:

Cheers,
Mike - who still thinks the manuals for 5.6 were the best.

Pixelight
04-28-2011, 05:46 PM
Guys, I just wanted to say that it wasn't my intention to rough any feathers. But you have to admit that LW is unconventional at best. It really has a lot of quirks. I have not used all 3D applications out there but from the ones i have used, LW is like a 180° turn. I know I should come with a clean slate and all. But it's one thing to have it's own way and it's another to be totally counter-intuitive. Like envelop for animations for example. Or to have to save separated parts of your project and so on. But I'm trying hard to crack this nut because I really want to like the program and really want to get good at it. But sometimes, specially after a whole week of working on it 8 hours a day and watching and reading tutorials and trying to understand it and you still can't get things done in it can get pretty frustrating. Believe me, I'm not just coming here and asking questions and being lazy. I'm watching and reading tutorials like a maniac! So far i have spent most of my vacation working on this thing and I'm not even close to crack it. It's just frustrating that any of my prior knowledge and experience doesn't seem to be any good here.
But having said that, I'm still trying and I'm still willing to make it work. LW may be a hardheaded beast, but it's community is nothing short of fantastic and you guys have been extremely helpful all along the way. Thanks for that. If it wasn't for that i think i would have shot myself already. Nah. But I'm glad neither my dad or my grandpa have a history of heart disease. Phew! :screwy:

Scazzino
04-28-2011, 07:06 PM
Don't worry Pixelight. I'm a long time LW user and I agree that bevel isn't the best name either. Bevel usually means to cut a bevel into the edges of an object (ie. LW's Rounder). I've also been complaining about LW's backwards Front/Back ever since I started using it. I've since been a modo user for modeling and Lux fixed the front/back issue, but they carried over the "bevel" name/tool... :D

GraphXs
04-28-2011, 08:10 PM
Ya, No worries Pixelight, I was just suggesting now that ya know what the tool does, but want to keep the name you are familar with than change it.

I work with a bunch of peeps who know Maya and Max, and I have got them to use Lightwave. To make the transtion alittle smoother I renamed, made new tabs, changed keyboard shrtcuts to what they know. So now I have a version of LW that has a hybrid Max/Maya UI so they can wrap their heads around. The only thing missing is changing the Nav, I sure hope Newtek could add that in a 10.x version.

I feel your anger when ya think something is suppose to work and it doesn't. That why fourms exsist, and this is by far the best community to vent and ask away! I'm jsut happy Newtek can still get customers, we old ones can be crabby, and we;ve been asking for fixes in LW for a long long time! Was it version 5 or 6 when Newtek started the fourms?

Dexter2999
04-28-2011, 08:21 PM
If you were my intern (which is an entirely different situation) you'd have to earn that right.
Step 1: Read the manual. Completely ;)

:bday:

Cheers,
Mike - who still thinks the manuals for 5.6 were the best.

WOW.


Glad I'm not your intern. lol.

jeric_synergy
04-28-2011, 08:37 PM
People always bytch about how their new software doesn't work like their old software. Lookit how they whinge incessantly about Blender.

Bah. "My clarinet isn't fingered like my oboe! Wah!!"

Until a user has gained some proficiency in using a tool, they should hold off on sharing their critiques. An informed opinion is a lot more valuable.

.

Lightwolf
04-29-2011, 01:46 AM
WOW.


Glad I'm not your intern. lol.
It couldn't have been that bad... they all still talk to me :D

Cheers,
Mike