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simonlion
04-25-2011, 01:23 AM
Few weeks ago I posted a Thread regarding a Different between VPR and FPrime, and there was different opinions. I done many test and I found out FPrime is faster and more accurate than VPR.

I added an Image map, and Procedural Texture using a Graph Editor, and I animated about 300 frames. I opened Both Fprime, and VPR, While Playing the animation, I noticed FPrime is much quicker than VPR. As a matter of fact, while playing the animation I noticed VPR is not moving. Later Lightwave Crashed. I dont know If It crashed because of FPrime, or because Both FPrime, and VPR were running at the same time.

Also, I added a some Presets such as Dirty sand, and other presets to my object, and again I saw that FPrime Is more faster and accurate than VPR.

Well, this is only based on my experience only, I could be wrong.
What Is your opinion.
Thanks
simon

cgisoul
04-25-2011, 01:38 AM
I tried Fprime, though my experience was short lived, but it is not doubt the fastest. But again, VPR only came out now and still there are things that are not supported. Fprime has been around for quite some good years already.
Give VPR sometime to mature and I'm sure things will be get better for VPR.
At least I hope so.

gordonrobb
04-25-2011, 04:43 AM
The big difference is fPrime is a rendered, VPR is a previewer. Also VPR is built in so you don't need to fork out additional money.

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 07:29 AM
FPrime is both a previewer and a renderer. If you use it as a previewer in Layout there are features it can't render like DOF and motion blur. As a renderer, it will render DOF and motion blur. In the past, FPrime could not render Hypervoxels as a previewer but could as a renderer. (Nowadays it renders HVs in both modes.)

I use both as previewers. I occasionally use VPR to work on certain shaders and filters like HD Instance but in general I stick with FPrime for its stability and speed. I typically use FPrime when working on overall scene lighting and general shading. I imagine as VPR improves, FPrime in its current form may become less useful but for the time being I think FPrime is more reliable as a general previewer.

ericsmith
04-25-2011, 09:06 AM
If you use it as a previewer in Layout there are features it can't render like DOF and motion blur.

Actually, it can render DOF in the previewer. Just not motion blur.

Eric

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 10:05 AM
Oh? Okay. Nevermind, at least on that feature. :)

Netvudu
04-25-2011, 10:47 AM
but the DOF in the preview is a draft quality one....

Also, there´s no Linear workflow correction with FPrime, which is a BIG BIG drawback compared to VPR.
VPR has to imitate FPrime´s feature of only using free CPU cycles. If Newtek can copy that, everything else will be forgiven by VPR users. I´m sure, because all of FPrime´s "quickness" and non-intrusive ease of use comes from there...

jasonwestmas
04-25-2011, 11:22 AM
Also, there´s no Linear workflow correction with FPrime, which is a BIG BIG drawback compared to VPR.
.

G2 allows you to tweak color and gamma for CS/Fprime previews.

Wilfrick
04-25-2011, 11:27 AM
I prefere FPrime, ok for speed and quality, but there is an other thing: with FPrime you can have a little window very fast, can resize if you want more big, can move on other monitor if need, and the better is that can zoom the scene and move the scene to look what you want like a magnify... all very fast. VPR stay inside layout, to move the scene need to move the camera, if want to zoom need to move the camera near what you want to see, it is very no-productive procedure.
I'd like to see the VPR in a separate window, resizeable, zoomable (lol, "...able" is right english???), moveable... and, why not, using GPU....so, if use GPU, not radiosity but....let me to dream...unbiased render... ok, I ask too much.

Elmar Moelzer
04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
VPR can do any viewport, Fprime, AFAIK only the camera view.

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
I prefere FPrime, ok for speed and quality, but...can zoom the scene and move the scene to look what you want like a magnify... all very fast.
YES! Thanks for bringing that up. I've gotten so used to this feature that I forgot how remarkable it is.

I remember the first time it hit me how cool wheel-zooming in FPrime was. We were working on a Call of Duty commercial here in the Box, and I was able wheel-zoom into the face of a distant german soldier and see the battle scene in front of the character reflected back to me in the eyeball, all in near realtime. Now THAT's amazing! :)

Now you can kinda do this with VPR and perspective view (no wheel-zoom but using conventional navigation,) but if you want to do this using camera view you have to actually change the camera position and zoom. Not as elegant for spotchecking details the way FPrime does it, which is quicker and non-destructive to camera settings.

G.

jasonwestmas
04-25-2011, 11:53 AM
G2 doesn't work with nodal surfacing, forgot to mention that.

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 12:13 PM
I think what we really want is VPrime.

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 12:26 PM
While I'm here, what does the little camera icon in the viewport controls do? Is that for setting the 'active' viewport for VPR for advanced rendering features? Thanks in advance for any info.

Wilfrick
04-25-2011, 12:30 PM
VPR can do any viewport, Fprime, AFAIK only the camera view.

mmm, ok, but I don't find this very important.
I use LW from 3.5, on Amiga, when layout had only 1 view, not 2, 3 or 4, so I take this workflow inside me and my layout has always only 1 view, switched with numeric key. Really I can't work with more than 1 view, when I tried it was for me very crazy... and really I no need a render in a view different from camera, why need? My final render will be the camera view, not other, I'm interesting only about what camera see. All other views stay the 50% of the time in openGL and 50% of the time in wireframe.
And think about this: when you need to move little objects in very small small space it is very good to have a full screen window in layout, maybe in right or front or top view, wireframe, and it is supergood to have a separate window, on other monitor, with the final render. This situation for now is possible only with fprime.
Don't think I love fprime, I never use for final render, but on working sometime it is very good, unfortunately...
I very hope to switch it with VPR as soon as possible. I'd happy also if VPR has less quality (not low resolution like can set now!) than final render, but really more fast, to give only an idea about what will be the render in the time that I'm working on the scene.

gerry_g
04-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Well as VPR works and FPrime doesn't in 64Bit mode in 10 on a Mac it's really really difficult to se any kind of argument at all over which is better BUT.......using VPR in the full window over using FPrime in a tiny floating window that I have to keep hotching around cos it's in the way wins it hands down for me even if VPR is a WIP ATM and not very comprehensive.

hrgiger
04-25-2011, 12:56 PM
While I'm here, what does the little camera icon in the viewport controls do? Is that for setting the 'active' viewport for VPR for advanced rendering features? Thanks in advance for any info.

Are you talking about the controls of the right to the viewport controls when you have VPR open? The left icon is VPR options (setting quality, image saving directory, and color space), and the one on the right is a snapshot which saves your currently rendered view in VPR.

wrench
04-25-2011, 01:04 PM
And the little Camera icon is to show which viewport to use for creating a preview, which can either be the viewport or undocked, and if undocked you can say what res you want (camera or fixed).

B

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 01:14 PM
Are you talking about the controls of the right to the viewport controls when you have VPR open? The left icon is VPR options (setting quality, image saving directory, and color space)...
I'm mean the one left to the left one that looks like a camera. I think wrench just explained it. Thanks to both of you for answering. :)

Next question: How you undock VPR? I see the option to enable undocking and for setting independent resolution but I'm not sure how to actually break out VPR into it's own window.

wrench
04-25-2011, 01:31 PM
That's for a preview, which now of course be made with VPR quality rather than just OpenGL.

B

hrgiger
04-25-2011, 04:48 PM
Next question: How you undock VPR? I see the option to enable undocking and for setting independent resolution but I'm not sure how to actually break out VPR into it's own window.

You have to have that checked and actually create a preview for it to open up its own window.

cg_mike
04-25-2011, 05:05 PM
G2 allows you to tweak color and gamma for CS/Fprime previews.

I've read/heard this a few times, but haven't been able to put the process together on my own. Have you had any success with this?

As an Fprime and G2 owner, it would be nice to have a way to use them together to produce gamma-corrected output. (Although if G2 isn't working with nodes, this might not be a very comprehensive option for LW9.6?)

Greenlaw
04-25-2011, 06:35 PM
You have to have that checked and actually create a preview for it to open up its own window.
Got it! And it's kinda cool. Thanks for the tip.

G.

jasonwestmas
04-25-2011, 06:50 PM
I've read/heard this a few times, but haven't been able to put the process together on my own. Have you had any success with this?

As an Fprime and G2 owner, it would be nice to have a way to use them together to produce gamma-corrected output. (Although if G2 isn't working with nodes, this might not be a very comprehensive option for LW9.6?)

I'll see if I can dig up a good example, but yeah I'm a nodes guy so I wouldn't use G2 anyway, unless I was in some kind of crazy rush. But essentially all you are doing is adjusting your gamma in G2 master panel to fit your monitor better (2.2) which washes out your colors. You counter that by then darkening up your colors and improving saturation using the master controls in G2. That's the layman's version anyway.

jasonwestmas
04-25-2011, 07:38 PM
Okay, so what I would do is take advantage of the LW10 CS display and try to match your Fprime image to the sRGB F9 render using the G2 Image Process Panel. You still may have to select your colors or adjust your color textures manually to match your chroma (color intensity) display. Only adjusting the white gamma settings may wash out your image in certain situations.

I think the G2 Image processing is meant to be more intuitive using Fprime for instant feeback, and not so scientifically accurate. So it is a matter of eyeballing a little with G2 and matching the more technically accurate method using LW10's sRGB output. I doubt there is a magic number to punch into the G2 panel that applies for every situation. Hope that helps.


I should add that the advantage in using the G2 input processing is that you are dealing with a much higher quality image and therefore have more information to play with than to bring a 24-bit image into Photoshop and adjust it that way. Granted you can output hdr images from LW and use a editor or compositor that can deal with those images but that takes more time for just a preview.

cg_mike
04-25-2011, 09:56 PM
Very interesting. Thanks!

Since I'm still on LW9.6, I'll have to come up with a way to match against a reference image -- but your suggestions give me a good place to start.

If the G2 is just processing the gamma, I wonder if nodes that work in FPrime would still be usable or if the processing is part of the full pipeline and all nodes will have a frowny face. I'll have to give that a try.

Apologies for temporarily diverting the thread.

jasonwestmas
04-25-2011, 10:08 PM
Very interesting. Thanks!

Since I'm still on LW9.6, I'll have to come up with a way to match against a reference image -- but your suggestions give me a good place to start.

If the G2 is just processing the gamma, I wonder if nodes that work in FPrime would still be usable or if the processing is part of the full pipeline and all nodes will have a frowny face. I'll have to give that a try.

Apologies for temporarily diverting the thread.

G2 master is only processing the gamma for surfaces that currently have the G2 shader applied. When the nodal checkbox is activated any shader information G2 included is overwritten. So you can only use nodal or shaders for one surface, not both.

dwburman
04-25-2011, 11:29 PM
While I'm here, what does the little camera icon in the viewport controls do? Is that for setting the 'active' viewport for VPR for advanced rendering features? Thanks in advance for any info.

The little camera icon also determines which view port volumetrics render in if you're using VPR on more than one of them.

simonlion
04-25-2011, 11:46 PM
I prefere FPrime, ok for speed and quality, but there is an other thing: with FPrime you can have a little window very fast, can resize if you want more big, can move on other monitor if need, and the better is that can zoom the scene and move the scene to look what you want like a magnify... all very fast. VPR stay inside layout, to move the scene need to move the camera, if want to zoom need to move the camera near what you want to see, it is very no-productive procedure.
I'd like to see the VPR in a separate window, resizeable, zoomable (lol, "...able" is right english???), moveable... and, why not, using GPU....so, if use GPU, not radiosity but....let me to dream...unbiased render... ok, I ask too much.

I do the same thing, Drag the small widow either on the top right of my Monitor, or Drag the full size in my other Monitor.
simon.