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shermanlu
10-03-2003, 02:50 PM
High End Magazine has covered many articles about the high end 3D tools. however, I cannot find any thing regarding Lightwave!!! :mad:
so...is lightwave not a high end 3d app yet?:confused: please some body tell me...I got it wrong!!!:eek:

http://www.highendmag.com/

Highend Magazine covers tools such as Maya, XSI, Houdini, Shake, RenderMan and MentalRay.

hrgiger
10-03-2003, 03:04 PM
oh boy, here we go again....

There is no official rating that says whether a 3D, or 2D for that matter, program is "high-end" or not. There's no comittee or secret club or handshake that declares anyone high end.

If you want to go on how much an application costs, then Lightwave is not high end.

If you want to go by quality of output and whether or not it is suitable for film, television or general broadcast, then yes, Lightwave is definately high end.

Jockomo
10-03-2003, 03:08 PM
No, sorry we are not "high end". We are close, the only thing we wavers are missing is a certian pompus attitude that is required to fall into the "high end" category.

(although I have heard there are some plugins that may help)

For example I just dropped $1400 on the RealWave plugin. I'm feeling more pompus already.

shermanlu
10-03-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
oh boy, here we go again....

There is no official rating that says whether a 3D, or 2D for that matter, program is "high-end" or not. There's no comittee or secret club or handshake that declares anyone high end.

If you want to go on how much an application costs, then Lightwave is not high end.

If you want to go by quality of output and whether or not it is suitable for film, television or general broadcast, then yes, Lightwave is definately high end.

Well... ok, i got it. so the high end Magazine should be "high cost Magazine":p I just wondering that... howcome it won't cover LW???

Wade
10-03-2003, 03:35 PM
They do not cover Lightwave because newtek is not paying for advertising in their mag; and that because the cost of a page is on the " highend ".

just my 2cent guess thou.

Wade:)

Noclar7
10-03-2003, 03:40 PM
yes, lightwave is highend. I just didnt give away my first born child for it.

Carm3D
10-03-2003, 03:52 PM
I am medium end.

anieves
10-03-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Wade
They do not cover Lightwave because newtek is not paying for advertising in their mag; and that because the cost of a page is on the " highend ".

just my 2cent guess thou.

Wade:)

yep, that's exactly right, Newtek is not a "sponsor" so they just don't cover it.

Rei
10-03-2003, 04:07 PM
I'm at the other end.

Besides its sorta like LW is the underdog, and everyone (well everyone here) supports the underdog. ^_^

EyesClosed
10-03-2003, 04:09 PM
LightWave, at best, is mid-end. :D

takkun
10-03-2003, 05:30 PM
They do not cover Lightwave because newtek is not paying for advertising in their mag; and that because the cost of a page is on the " highend ". Yep. 3ds Max wasn't on the Highend site until Discreet shelled out money and became a sponser. I'm sure Animation Master could become Highend too if they paid them enough. :rolleyes:

twidup
10-03-2003, 06:00 PM
well, part of it is that the people that publish Highend Mag also make keyframe, a mag dedicated to just Lightwave.

Highend is also edited by the guys that run highend3d.com, which covers just Maya, soft, renderman, and mentals for 3d, with max beign in there now becuase of sponsorship.

So, logic would question why have 2 mags that both cover LW from teh same publisher?

Librarian
10-03-2003, 06:19 PM
And if we are not highend, who cares? The only thing that`s important is what LW can do. If I would own a BMW M5, I would be happy with it, although it`s neither Ferrari nor Lamborghini ;)
And highend.com nominated Max as a highend app, although they said not so long ago Max can`t be compared with Maya or XSI and isn`t highend. But when money comes into play(discreet is a huge company ;) ), everything can be highend :D

cresshead
10-03-2003, 07:04 PM
actually lightwave is, as i have said before..."no end"
as there's no end of stunning piks and animations that can be done in lightwave...remember the highest grossing film ever made in the history of the planet used lightwave to achieve it's "hi end" goals...

no end of features
no end of stunning tool & work flo
no end to the hi quality output from the built n free 999 render nodes or rendering available
no end to this thread?????


steve g

takkun
10-03-2003, 07:14 PM
I'm having deja vu....

again...http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7602&highlight=high+end

and again...http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5420&highlight=high+end

and again...http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/29358.html?

archiea
10-03-2003, 08:18 PM
...and again!!!! http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11884

Macet01
10-03-2003, 10:44 PM
Of course Lightwave is High-End, and because of me sitting infront of my computer constantly with this High-End product I have a large end!!!!!!

:D

Hervé
10-04-2003, 01:13 AM
High-end..??... well I think that you jump from the Eiffel Tower or from the Empire State Building, either ways, you'll die anyway... so what's the point ...?

My name "Hervé" itself could become a High_End name if I give them 20 $K, tomorrow you could see me in This SO High_end Magazine.... he he...

To Conclude, just a big Blah Blah Blah.... (not you guys, this high-end mag...)

Question : Is there a low _end Mag (me subversive)

WizCraker
10-04-2003, 01:46 AM
About Us:

Highend Magazine, presented by Gnomon School of Visual Effects, is a co-production of Gnomon, the premiere training center for highend digital production tools and techniques, and Highend Network, publisher of the on-line communities http://www.highend3d.com and http://www.highend2d.com. The magazine focuses on digital production, and reflecs the myriad of tools which the high-end industries utilize. Highend Magazine covers tools such as Maya, XSI, Houdini, Shake, RenderMan and MentalRay. Through feature articles focused on production case-studies, software specific tutorials and hardware reviews the editorial content will present unbiased views of these production tools. Each issue will also feature galleries highlighting some of the best work being done by individuals -- professional or student _ and studios.


The stuff in bold explains it, Gnomon School of Visual Effects is Maya based, and of course the websites above [not in bold] are do not feature Lightwave. Also notice the Pink lettering They are blinded only thinking the above applications are used by the studios, which of course we all here know that sitting right next to Maya can be found Lightwave look at some of the studio's, Digtial Domain, Esc Entertainment, R & H, etc...

Nemoid
10-04-2003, 02:31 AM
Lightwave is high end from the POV that
the user must be high end!!
no matter of the app. the user is what's important.

tasmanian
10-04-2003, 04:41 AM
Hmmm, my LW gets the job done. That's what counts for me.
If it would be as "high end" as some of the others I wouldn't be able to afford it anymore.

Edbittner
10-04-2003, 06:40 AM
Blah, blah, blah. Lightwave8 will be as "high-end" as the others.
So there.
Ed

Elmar Moelzer
10-04-2003, 07:07 AM
Well to me LW is High End!
And I think the people at Area51 (won an Emmy for Children Of Dune this year) and Zoic (won an Emmy for Firefly this year) would agree.
All of them used LW. Area51 used LW as their only 3d- app. I think Zoic used MAYA as well, but not that much and they switched more and more over to ue LW only during the production.
All those that were nominated for an Emmy and used LW would agree to this as well.
Like EdenFX for Enterprise (they use LW only).
So I would say from this POV LW is very High End.
I think a lot of this discussion in purely political.
And Gnomon is financed by the apps they feature on their webpage. If Newtek wasted money for this, LW would be featured there as well.
I think everyone here will agree that is better to invest that money into development and forums like these instead, where all users benefit fom that.
Just my two Euro- cents.
CU
Elmar

EyesClosed
10-04-2003, 02:28 PM
Basing whether a program is high-end on what's done with it is stupid. "High-end" work can come out of clearly low-end programs, like Rustboy, for example.

High-end is based on features and flexablility. Lightwave doesn't have the latest features, nor is it extremely flexible.

hrgiger
10-04-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Basing whether a program is high-end on what's done with it is stupid. "High-end" work can come out of clearly low-end programs, like Rustboy, for example.



Yeah, and a lot of people that use programs like XSI and Houdini are doing low end work at best. So what difference does it make whether a person considers software low or high end? A great artist with Animation Master is sure a hell of a lot better then a crap weasel with Houdini.

Nemoid
10-05-2003, 02:33 AM
I agree with Elmar and HRGiger. artist must be high end .
since there is not the perfect app, then the artist must be good.

even if Lw have some difficulties caused from its structure,
and quite 2 years of not serious hard development, this doesn't mean its not a good program. its workflow and intuitiveness is very good and allows the user to work very rapidly compared to XSI and Maya. this means the app is very good indeed, because after 2 years maybe other app sblown Lw away if it was not good.

but this didn't happen.

I'm nor blind and i see what are the strong points of other apps, but I also see the strong points of Lw.

Nt have surely a lot to do to enhance our app, but i am sure they will do the best for us.

actually they are doing it just now.:D

so no prob if Lw is not in Highend website.

EyesClosed
10-05-2003, 03:18 PM
its workflow and intuitiveness is very good and allows the user to work very rapidly compared to XSI and Maya.

If the person actually knows how to use Maya or XSI, they can work just as fast if not faster. Saying that LightWave is faster shows bias and a clear lack of knowledge when it comes to other programs.

hrgiger
10-05-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
If the person actually knows how to use Maya or XSI, they can work just as fast if not faster. Saying that LightWave is faster shows bias and a clear lack of knowledge when it comes to other programs.

Well, that's pretty much a moot point anyway since it's not the software that's fast, it's the user.

It shouldn't matter whether your software is considered high end or not by others. It only matters what you do with it. It's an elitest title that has no meaning whatsoever.

Nemoid
10-06-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
If the person actually knows how to use Maya or XSI, they can work just as fast if not faster. Saying that LightWave is faster shows bias and a clear lack of knowledge when it comes to other programs.

look at Maya's items selection system out of the box, an tell me if its so easy like in modeler to select points and polys. geez, I set all the faster possibilities in preferences,mapped lazo tool in my keyboard (while in lw is in the right mouse button, very rapid isn't it?)and I still had to download dragselectplugin for Maya to get some faster result in that.

selection system is very important for a quick workflow.

and what about the slow implementation of Subpatches? you can't simply tab in and out like in Lw.
ok they have two algorithms, but you still have problems working with the subpatches..

and what about the simmetry tools? seem that instance "simmetry" trick a good thing? i say its quite crap.

and what about...

and tell me, why sticking with Lw if you are so expert of Maya and/or XSI?what's the main reason?!

shermanlu
10-06-2003, 04:23 PM
Totally agree... Nemoid,

I've been demonstrated how LW function to the MAYA distributor in Taipei when 7.0 came out... they were all stunned by LW's quick working process & implementation abilities. They almost throw a box of MAYA "out of their office"!!!:D

So I truely believe that LW is far better than other 3D apps in many aspects of how to accomplish your 3D tasks.

however, MAYA dose really make a very great comercial appearance...not just spend money but marketing strategies...

I think NT should learn from other 3D software companies about how they have done for their marketing promotions... demo reels, testimonies from pros, frequently news on webs & Mags...etc.

WizCraker
10-06-2003, 09:58 PM
I like how Alias shows videos on in the inside, like how they made Fluids, they showed a brief on the making of it, That would be cool to see Newtek show a glimpse inside Newtek development for LW and VT.

EyesClosed
10-06-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
look at Maya's items selection system out of the box, an tell me if its so easy like in modeler to select points and polys. geez, I set all the faster possibilities in preferences,mapped lazo tool in my keyboard (while in lw is in the right mouse button, very rapid isn't it?)and I still had to download dragselectplugin for Maya to get some faster result in that.

selection system is very important for a quick workflow.

and what about the slow implementation of Subpatches? you can't simply tab in and out like in Lw.
ok they have two algorithms, but you still have problems working with the subpatches..

and what about the simmetry tools? seem that instance "simmetry" trick a good thing? i say its quite crap.

and what about...

and tell me, why sticking with Lw if you are so expert of Maya and/or XSI?what's the main reason?!

Everyone knows Maya's weak point is it's modeling tools and workflow. I can take the same route and clearly show that LightWave is slower than Maya or XSI, when you're dealing with weak points:

-LightWave's poorly thought-out seperation of Modeler and Layout leads to a very slow workflow when it comes to preparing a model for animation (rigging, weighting, etc), while it's fast and intuative in Maya or XSI.
- LightWave's poor radiosity and caustics are nearly unusable due to it's horrible slowness, while Maya's implementation of MR is fast and great.
-LightWave's grandpa design and unintuative workflow in Layout slows working down considerably. Layout is a bunch of poorly integrated plugins thrown around the interface with little thought at all. Who wants to hunt through a bunch of panels to load some poorly designed plugin, and then click on it to activate?
-LightWave lacks even the most useful and basic animation tools, that Maya or XSI have had from the beginning. No ghosting, dopesheet, etc.

:D :D

Nemoid
10-07-2003, 03:15 AM
you model in Lw and animate in Maya, isn't it?:D

I don't think that Layout is such a mess how you describe it, CIM
of course its a weak point not having cool tools for animation. however I can find things in layout quite easily because certain things are very logic , while certains not.

consider the thing that Maya was born very after Lw as well as XSI too has been rewrite from Softimage app.consider the fact that Lw is still part of the bunch of apps considered high end, or level, in many cases.
Lw have not been remastered, never. even with 6 release.

an app like Maya, wich was 20.000$ before going down in prices, CAN'T have a mess workflow at all, in every part because of its previous price, and of its name famous all around the world. but despite this it have a mess workflow.
animation and rigging can be good in Maya, but why are there modules like MB or Animanium if its SO good? why there is TSM for Maya if rigging is So good?

now Nt is attaching the weakest point of Lw. I believe we will see great things on that field, now you'll be able to rig your character from Layout without going in modeler at all. then you'll have bone dynamics and a system to manage keys and other things. some people complained because of this. they preferred rendering and lighting, but the weakiest points are the first to work on.

then it will be surely the time of rendering, wich now is accurate, if not fast, and there are good ways to make it faster.

all other packages like Maya or Max introduced MR or other good rendering engines that's why they allow a good rendering but looking to their poor built in renderer they are a mess. and what's the price for this implementations?? and render nodes?

Really, a software Like Maya is powerfull, but its far to have a decent workflow. its not intuitive and its laborious. that's why there are specialized people to work in different tasks like modelling (OMG) lighting, animating etc. its more an app good for huge companies, and not a good solo artist app indeed. also I think that in huge companies , goopeople very able compiling MELand plugs , change entirely Maya out of the box workflow.

but what about a solo artist?

Lw in a way or other, allows the solo artist to do a complete job from modelling to animating and this will only grow and grow in that direction.

I think that, despite the fact Lw has many probs, wich we all know, still have great possibilities. its a matter of some time. Nt lost 2 years of development, and 2 years are a lot in CG software, quite like a geologic era. but Lw is still here. I think that we will see a good evolution of our software from 8 and further.

mantaining and enhancing the good workflow and developing ALL Lw possibilities at an high level. this is the way to do to make Lw better. Look to wat's Lux is supposed to do. a natural Lw evolution in power. same base concepts, huge developing. I think Nt can do this too.maybe even better.;D :D

Finally, since solving some basic Lw problem requires a rewrite and there is no doubt,you must understand users can't expect it now, just because there was no time to do it in a solid way. a such task requires 2 years indeed. in the meantime we will have a greatly enhanced vesion of current Lw:D

Nemoid
10-07-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by shermanlu
Totally agree... Nemoid,

I've been demonstrated how LW function to the MAYA distributor in Taipei when 7.0 came out... they were all stunned by LW's quick working process & implementation abilities. They almost throw a box of MAYA "out of their office"!!!:D

So I truely believe that LW is far better than other 3D apps in many aspects of how to accomplish your 3D tasks.

however, MAYA dose really make a very great comercial appearance...not just spend money but marketing strategies...

I think NT should learn from other 3D software companies about how they have done for their marketing promotions... demo reels, testimonies from pros, frequently news on webs & Mags...etc.

heheheheheh.:D it happened to one friend of mine, too.
he's a lw demonstrator, and when he showed Lw to some Maya users they were astonished from Lw power, in modelling especially. they used to select faces and points the worst way and never thought of Lw's possibilities. lets think to phantom points in sub patches. with Lw you can work in subpatch and forget poligons !!!!!! an drag tool? and dragnet?

really, Nt must advertise more!!!!!! :D

actually they have to learn to implement things better and more solid. test them heavily , and think to the user as an artist not a programmer. less features. more solid.
but this is valid for all companies out there.

hrgiger
10-07-2003, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid


I don't think that Layout is such a mess how you describe it, CIM
..............

A well thought out response and pretty much have to agree with you except for one thing.
We probably will still have to jump back to modeler for rigging in 8 for things such as weight maps and endomorphs unless they're revealing something that they haven't yet. Animatable points will be nice now in 8 but we don't know how easy they are to use or even if they can be used easily for corrective morphs. However, having said that, the worflow from modeler to layout will be eased considerably with the new bone tools in 8.

kurv
10-07-2003, 09:09 AM
WizCracker, I like how Alias shows videos on in the inside, like how they made Fluids, they showed a brief on the making of it, That would be cool to see Newtek show a glimpse inside Newtek development for LW and VT.

WizCracker, all of this costs money...LW was used in as many feature films as Maya and in the game industry the most well known studio in the world "id" just switched over to LW exclusively. They hate 3DS Max. The point here is for NewTek to post those videos, and say that LW was used in the Matrix, or Black Hawk Down...those are awesome credits. Just look at the staggering list http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/projects_list.html (LW Projects) . But to show clips for all of these films would be a staggering amount of money.

As a publisher I understand this and deal with this on an ongoing basis...as we include files on CD's in our books...we beg and plead to be able to use them free of charge. But with film companies...this does not work.

LW has an incredible list of credits to it's name...just because you do not see videos does not mean you should discount it :D .

LW Rocks!!!

Wes -

DigiLusionist
10-07-2003, 01:49 PM
Mid-end. Maybe L8 will start to change that.

eggy
10-07-2003, 02:25 PM
There is no high end, mid end or whatever end software !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The final rendering counts, and the Lightwave renderer is still one of the best standard renderer out there. ;)

It’s all about the user, there are users who work high, mid or whatever end.
You know just a poor craftsmen blames the tool he is using, and in my opinion that’s true. :D
(App.14 Lightwave Manual)

DigiLusionist
10-07-2003, 02:42 PM
LOL

That's gotta be the 1 millionth time that pony's been trotted out in support of that argument...

Nemoid
10-07-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
A well thought out response and pretty much have to agree with you except for one thing.
We probably will still have to jump back to modeler for rigging in 8 for things such as weight maps and endomorphs unless they're revealing something that they haven't yet. Animatable points will be nice now in 8 but we don't know how easy they are to use or even if they can be used easily for corrective morphs. However, having said that, the worflow from modeler to layout will be eased considerably with the new bone tools in 8.

agree.
weightmaps are currently in modeler and having a system to create and manage them in layout would surely be kick s$$ !! it would be great if in layout there is a weightshade mode too!!
surely Nt must take this into consideration.
this is another strong point in favour of a future integration Mod/layout .but maybe its possible awith the current structure however.

I think their presence in modeler also depends from the fact that weights are used also for modeler tools falloff wich is a good thing. to have them in layout, I think you have to be able to select points and polys in layout.

I dunno how Nt implemented points manipulaton in layout so we have to wait for it!!maybe some possibility of selection?

however, for rigging I tried Ortho tools demo and they were very good. with Nt additions to them the rigging task would be very good indeed. :)

WizCraker
10-07-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by wordwarepub
WizCracker, all of this costs money...LW was used in as many feature films as Maya and in the game industry the most well known studio in the world "id" just switched over to LW exclusively.

Wes,

Thats not what I ment not for each individual movie,but Inside of Newtek there development of something cool. It can't be that too expensive I mean someone at Newtek must have a camcorder, they shoot the video, hook up to a VT they have laying around edit it and post to website. I know it might take some time on the desinated Newtek staff member but I think it would give an insite on Newtek. Also I know that Lightwave is used in more Features than Maya 8-)

kurv
10-07-2003, 03:37 PM
Ah, gotcha, sorry...I went down a completely different path :confused: .

That would be a good idea...William..?

Wes -

Librarian
10-07-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by wordwarepub
...and in the game industry the most well known studio in the world "id" just switched over to LW exclusively.
ID uses Maya as well, not only LW. For animation, of course ;)

hrgiger
10-08-2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
agree.
weightmaps are currently in modeler and having a system to create and manage them in layout would surely be kick s$$ !! it would be great if in layout there is a weightshade mode too!!
surely Nt must take this into consideration.
this is another strong point in favour of a future integration Mod/layout .but maybe its possible awith the current structure however.



Here's a thought and maybe I should post this in the request forum. What if we had animatable weight maps? You know how you weight a character and the weights look great in one pose but horrible in another. What if we could change that weight map according to bone position? Sort of like we use jointmorphs now. That probably would have to be done in Layout since we'd have to see the deformation first to know what to change on the weighting. Maybe through vertex paint?

Stranahan
10-08-2003, 07:54 AM
The following isn't conjecture - it's fact, based on direct experience..

I dealt with the Highend website a year or two ago. They wanted to have NewTek on there - and they wanted ten or twenty grand for it. Some REALLY large amount of money. Then, LightWave would be 'highend'...

The magazine itself is a combination of DMG Publishing (Keyframe), Gnonom, and Highend3d.com. I saw an issue recently and I didn't notice a single ad in the magazine (not one) for anyone but Gnomon - and they are one of the people behind the magazine. That is a real not good sign, because that's where
magazines make their money.

Carm3D
10-08-2003, 08:15 AM
hrgiger,

I think the best solution for joints is some kind of smartskin effect like Animation:Master has. There is a smartskin plugin for LW and it works pretty good... But it is not implemented to the degree that it is in A:M.. They can pick any arbitrary angle of a bone and create a smartskin map for that angle.

I read somewhere that ILM had made over 40 of them for each shoulder while making The Hulk.. I'm certain they didn't use A:M tho.. If they did they'd still be rendering.. :D

hrgiger
10-08-2003, 09:32 AM
I know about smartskin and have used it in Lightwave. The problem with it in Lightwave is to make it work, you have to setup your weight maps so that each body part needs it's own weight map so that you can rotate your skelegon in modeler and get the same result that you did in Layout so that you can accurately define your joint. While I appreciate that there is a solution, it's not a great one.

I started on Hash's Animation Master and I really loved the smartskin. With A:M you setup your smartskin on each axis for that bone for x, y, and z. It did a pretty nice job of approximating the shapes inbetween. No expressions, no jumping from modeler to layout, no joint morphing. As you said, you could rotate the joint to any angle, and quickly shape up the joint and you could shape it anywhere along the angle of rotation. In Lightwave, generally when you set it up, you bend the bone to it's extreme, and fix it via an endomorph. To setup endos for different angles on that same joint would take forever, especially if you're using it for multiple body parts.

kurv
10-08-2003, 09:38 AM
Personally I would want to read a magazine that reports industry information and stories, not one that reports what they get paid to.

The way a magazine should be run is the articles are accurate to the story, not the check book... Let the people writing checks place ads.

It is true that DMG is behind Hi-End but DMG allows the magazine to run itself, he does not want to tell them what to do.

Lets write highend and let them know how we feel :D but be professional about it.

[email protected]

Wes -

Nemoid
10-08-2003, 02:20 PM
seems to me a good idea, especially if we will have the possibility to do that in Layout. since great part of the rigging will be there, I see no more reason to not have weightmaps setup in layout. really, the smartskin thing is great ! I read ILM used some thing like that for Hulk and I think its a really great way to work.
to make this intuitive and fast, Layout is the right place!!


Originally posted by hrgiger
Here's a thought and maybe I should post this in the request forum. What if we had animatable weight maps? You know how you weight a character and the weights look great in one pose but horrible in another. What if we could change that weight map according to bone position? Sort of like we use jointmorphs now. That probably would have to be done in Layout since we'd have to see the deformation first to know what to change on the weighting. Maybe through vertex paint?

I know about smartskin and have used it in Lightwave. The problem with it in Lightwave is to make it work, you have to setup your weight maps so that each body part needs it's own weight map so that you can rotate your skelegon in modeler and get the same result that you did in Layout so that you can accurately define your joint. While I appreciate that there is a solution, it's not a great one.

I started on Hash's Animation Master and I really loved the smartskin. With A:M you setup your smartskin on each axis for that bone for x, y, and z. It did a pretty nice job of approximating the shapes inbetween. No expressions, no jumping from modeler to layout, no joint morphing. As you said, you could rotate the joint to any angle, and quickly shape up the joint and you could shape it anywhere along the angle of rotation. In Lightwave, generally when you set it up, you bend the bone to it's extreme, and fix it via an endomorph. To setup endos for different angles on that same joint would take forever, especially if you're using it for multiple body parts.

Nemoid
10-08-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan
The following isn't conjecture - it's fact, based on direct experience..

I dealt with the Highend website a year or two ago. They wanted to have NewTek on there - and they wanted ten or twenty grand for it. Some REALLY large amount of money. Then, LightWave would be 'highend'...

The magazine itself is a combination of DMG Publishing (Keyframe), Gnonom, and Highend3d.com. I saw an issue recently and I didn't notice a single ad in the magazine (not one) for anyone but Gnomon - and they are one of the people behind the magazine. That is a real not good sign, because that's where
magazines make their money.

We don't need any Highend magazine to know that Lw is highend app!! however, if they wanted Lw with them so much, they could add it for free.
the problem relies in people wich read it, and believe that only these other softwares are "highend" really. i'm starting to hate this word...

EyesClosed
10-08-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
We don't need any Highend magazine to know that Lw is highend app!! however, if they wanted Lw with them so much, they could add it for free.
the problem relies in people wich read it, and believe that only these other softwares are "highend" really. i'm starting to hate this word...

Don't hate reality, accept it. :D

Nemoid
10-09-2003, 07:58 AM
I simply hate stupid things. high end word for 3D softwares, is a stupid thing. making unesperienced people believe that an app is High end and this is only because the software house pay its not a good thing at all. many apps aer used in movie feature production, and they're used together forsome of their different characteristics.

simply accepting a false reality is stupid and brings pain.

think about german people simply accepting Nazism, and look what Gandhi did for India's people because he didn't accepted how reality was.(i'm not comparing myself to Gandhi, though)

the world has been made better from people wich doesn't accept stupid things at all.

negativity is a stupid thing too. :D

Tronam
10-09-2003, 03:46 PM
Isn't it just a little bit ironic that the logo for HighEnd magazine (seen at the top of the website) was created by Dmitry Savinoff in LightWave? :)

-Tronam

Stranahan
10-09-2003, 03:52 PM
I don't like the highend name/vibe either...

It reeks of elitism and snottiness...things I hate about a lot of those 3D users....it's a little club...

takkun
10-09-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Tronam
Isn't it just a little bit ironic that the logo for HighEnd magazine (seen at the top of the website) was created by Dmitry Savinoff in LightWave? :)

-Tronam LOL!
Don't hate reality, accept it. Hey CIM, so why are you using Lightwave? A "high-end" solution like Maya should meet all your needs, right? I mean, why call something "high-end" when you still have to use lowly "mid-end" apps? :p

EyesClosed
10-09-2003, 07:13 PM
Hey CIM, so why are you using Lightwave? A "high-end" solution like Maya should meet all your needs, right? I mean, why call something "high-end" when you still have to use lowly "mid-end" apps?

I use whatever gets the job done, just as many other people do. I don't have to use LightWave or Maya, I choose to.

hrgiger
10-09-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
I use whatever gets the job done, just as many other people do. I don't have to use LightWave or Maya, I choose to.

You sure choose to tell us how much you hate it, that's for sure.

Nemoid
10-10-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Tronam
Isn't it just a little bit ironic that the logo for HighEnd magazine (seen at the top of the website) was created by Dmitry Savinoff in LightWave? :)

-Tronam

That's very fun and ironic!!! good point.

Its like R2D2 in EPI from rebel unit, but present
in Maya's 2002 reel...

however, none of this other highend apps, except Maya with Oscar for LOTR (but here is WETA wich really rocks) won the Emmy..:)

EyesClosed
10-10-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
That's very fun and ironic!!! good point.

Its like R2D2 in EPI from rebel unit, but present
in Maya's 2002 reel...

however, none of this other highend apps, except Maya with Oscar for LOTR (but here is WETA wich really rocks) won the Emmy..:)

What are you talking about? Alias won an Oscar for Maya and Newtek won an Emmy for LightWave. Weta won Oscars for LOTR.

Skritter
10-11-2003, 06:57 AM
I think whats more to the point is - Is the artist Highend?

A fella named De-Vince did amazin things with a pencil.

zarti
10-11-2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Skritter
I think whats more to the point is - Is the artist Highend?

A fella named De-Vince did amazin things with a pencil.


yes,.... i have seen some of this guy's sketches.
not bad...

:D

cresshead
10-11-2003, 12:06 PM
i still feel that lightwave is a "no end app"...seems more apt a description seeing as it's everywhere doing no end of cool graphics for film/t.v print/web and alike
:)

steveg

cresshead
10-11-2003, 12:10 PM
yeah too right.....
for those who belive that owning a copy of maya or soft xsi make them a "hi end user"..well..Hmmm

really we ought to get back to the pencil analogy....

owning a pencil does not make you an instant "da vinchi" or rembrant..it makes you an "owner of a pencil"..nothing more..it's what you can do with the pencil that will earn you the tag or status "artist"...or scribbler...you may just use the pencil to dig earwax out of your head for instance!

steve g:D :D

ericsmith
10-11-2003, 12:58 PM
For me, "high-end" means the software has the power accomplish a task at a level that is not inferior to what is generally accepted of the medium. For example: Before I got into Lightwave, I used Strata Studiopro. I was a huge fan. I loved the way that software worked. But it was incapable of doing character animation at even the most basic level. In that arena, it is unarguably NOT high-end. Now that I work with a package as powerful as LW, I understand that there are a LOT of things about strata that aren't high-end, but that's another story...

Ultimately, I believe LW is high end because it is capable of producing work that is as good as the highest industry standard. It's not about how easy it is to do a particular task. It may be easier to rig a character in Maya, but ultimately, it is possible to create character animation that looks great in either package. There are other high end tasks that LW is makes easier than Maya. They are both high end, because both provide the ability to get the job done.

Eric

Nemoid
10-13-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
What are you talking about? Alias won an Oscar for Maya and Newtek won an Emmy for LightWave. Weta won Oscars for LOTR.

The WETA pipeline is quite all Alias/Maya related. so that's one of the reasons why Maya won Oscar too. but they both, Maya and Lw deserve their prizes.

Mike Pauza
10-13-2003, 01:10 PM
Every software package has its strengths and weaknesses. IMHO how "high-end an application is to you" depends on how well it meshes with your own particular needs.

-Mike Pauza (3DPhysicist)

Nemoid
10-14-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
yeah too right.....
for those who belive that owning a copy of maya or soft xsi make them a "hi end user"..well..Hmmm

really we ought to get back to the pencil analogy....

owning a pencil does not make you an instant "da vinchi" or rembrant..it makes you an "owner of a pencil"..nothing more..it's what you can do with the pencil that will earn you the tag or status "artist"...or scribbler...you may just use the pencil to dig earwax out of your head for instance!

steve g:D :D

So fun!!

drawing is very fun and personally its my drug!!
I can draw with quite all mediums all around there, and I have to say that drawing is a real good base for every kinda work wich involves images. really you can project entire worlds with one simple pencil.
Leonardo Da Vinci the great was one of the best drawers I ever see and a good artist wich used drawing to project incredible things and as a knowledge tool to research about the world,nature,feelings and his entire philosophy about life.

So, I think , this is a high end artist at the base.

then, the app for 3D is a technical matter. sometimes companies don't hire you if you can't use some software, because their pipeline is related to that software, and they don't want to loose time to instruct you about it.

this however can be an obstacle, because a good artist wich use another app, if he knows how 3D works, could easily learn all apps he or someone wants to.

the companies wich use this system, worry about don't loosing time, but sometimes they loose great things.

that's why I don't like at all the term high end.

right now, the bunch of apps considered high end, can be very powerfull, they are better organized because they were born recently, with a good thought about structure and flexibility.

Lw for now has a different history, and never got a rewrite. that's why it can appear old and with a structure wich can't be flexible in some case. but if you watch clearly, you can see its still a good app right now, because in the right hands it allows to produce great works.

really I can't imagine what an app like Lw could become with a clever rewrite and good well thought enhancements.

zarti
10-14-2003, 06:16 AM
I believe LW development staff has some Leonardos inside,
which are very creative with 0-s and 1-s only.

This is the key to have a successful 3D app, :creativity:. :cool:
I don;t care if its high-end called or what....

EyesClosed
10-14-2003, 02:10 PM
really I can't imagine what an app like Lw could become with a clever rewrite and good well thought enhancements.

Look at what Luxology is doing. They're doing just that:cleverly rewriting LightWave. :D

Nemoid
10-14-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by zarti
I believe LW development staff has some Leonardos inside,
which are very creative with 0-s and 1-s only.

This is the key to have a successful 3D app, :creativity:. :cool:
I don;t care if its high-end called or what....

agree. I think we will see interesting
things from Nt in the near future.

zarti
10-15-2003, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Look at what Luxology is doing. They're doing just that:cleverly rewriting LightWave. :D

Yes, those guys are very creative too (i think). :cool:
LUX apps seems to me not just the rewritten LW apps,
but what we are looking, right now, that is just the (a) projection of LW in the future.

PS:: I really don't want to restart a thread which may cost some
HD drives to webmasters of this forum. :D


RESPECT!

hrgiger
10-15-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Look at what Luxology is doing. They're doing just that:cleverly rewriting LightWave. :D

One day they might actually have a product too...:rolleyes:

We'll see if it sells enough to recover from the months and months they spent working on it without apparent intake of income....

Hervé
10-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Oh OH, it looks like the baby chicken is dead in his eggshell.... seriously, will they succed.... me doubt... super fierce competition out there ...