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simonlion
04-12-2011, 01:39 AM
I have FPrime 3.51, and with my Lightwave Core there is VPR.
Dose VPR do the same job as FPrime do ?
Thanks
Simon

DMarkwick
04-12-2011, 02:59 AM
FPrime can render finals, and render DoF. VPR can do volumetrics, all light types and shaders. Aside from those things they seem more or less the same.

3DGFXStudios
04-12-2011, 03:40 AM
fprime renders also volumetrics.

DMarkwick
04-12-2011, 04:15 AM
fprime renders also volumetrics.

A quick volumetric spotlight test shows me that FPrime cannot render it, at least in the preview window, which I guess is the main interest of this topic :)

Dodgy
04-12-2011, 04:24 AM
Fprime renders only Hypervoxels doesn't it? VPR does ALL volumetrics, (DP instance, OGO Taiki etc...)

scott.newman.ct
04-12-2011, 08:40 AM
VPR is useful as a preview, but I feel it doesnt measure up to fPrime. fPrime is still the simplest, fastest and best renderer (and previewer) for Lightwave.

Sure, fPrime may not support certain things, but it supports most of what LW offers. In the cases where you need to accurately preview effects not supported by fPrime then VPR has the upper hand.

But the bottom line is that fPrime is much faster than VPR and offers a finished output render solution with phenomenal quality. The great thing about fPrime is you can pull a sequence into your compositing package of choice (After Effects for exampe) and you can start compositing with it while fPrime is still rendering. As the render quality refines and gets better, you can just keep reloading the sequence into After Effects.

Not to get too carried away but Ive always felt like fPrime turns my single machine into a render farm!

I have just switched to LW10 for Mac and I was so disssapointed to hear that fPrime doesnt exist yet for LW10 on Mac. I have so much respect for fPrime that I actually wanted to rather purchase LW9.6 just so I could run fPrime, but I was told Newtek have stopped shipping 9.6 and only 10 was available.

So now Im hoping and praying that fPrime 3.5 gets released for LW10 Mac really soon!

Dodgy
04-12-2011, 09:01 AM
But the bottom line is that fPrime is much faster than VPR

I'm only seeing that in certain cases. Other cases I find VPR much much faster, but it really depends on what you're doing. So it's a case of choose what you need to do most and buy that, as with any software. FP has its benefits as listed, VPR has its benefits.

scott.newman.ct
04-12-2011, 09:17 AM
What situations are faster with VPR?

I have opened multiple scenes and tried them with both VPR and fPrime and fPrime is about 8 times faster almost every time.

Keep in mind Im looking at fPrime through LW9.6 and VPR on LW10 so I dont know if that has something to do with it?

3DGFXStudios
04-12-2011, 09:21 AM
A quick volumetric spotlight test shows me that FPrime cannot render it, at least in the preview window, which I guess is the main interest of this topic :)

True no lights but hypervoxels it does.

evolross
04-12-2011, 09:21 AM
Also, FPrime is crashy on certain nodal setups and doesn't support a linear workflow without an additional paid plugin from Worley.

dwburman
04-12-2011, 09:28 AM
You might be able to download the LW 9.6 installer from your registration page. If you still have your 9.x windows license, you could possibly use it to register the Mac version.

jeric_synergy
04-12-2011, 10:03 AM
VPR renders volumetric lights fine, but ONLY in the designated preview window. And you have to advance a frame before it updates.

It also does SkyTracer.

simonlion
04-12-2011, 08:52 PM
You might be able to download the LW 9.6 installer from your registration page. If you still have your 9.x windows license, you could possibly use it to register the Mac version.

I agree with dwburman. If you have the License for LW9 you can go to Newtek Regesteration, and Download the 9.6
Simon

Dodgy
04-12-2011, 10:32 PM
What situations are faster with VPR?

I have opened multiple scenes and tried them with both VPR and fPrime and fPrime is about 8 times faster almost every time.


I have an external arch viz scene which renders clean in vpr in 40 secs, and is still a big blurry mess in FP. Takes about 3 mins for FP to clean up sufficiently. A half res f9 render takes 50 secs.

scott.newman.ct
04-13-2011, 01:41 AM
Unfortunately the license I was using for 9.6 belongs to my previous employer. I have just started my own business and purchased a new copy of Lightwave, I was hoping to get 9.6 but I was told by the Newtek rep that they are only selling and shipping 10.

So Im stuck with LW10 and no fPrime unless NT can help me out with a copy of 9.6. I wonder if they would entertain something like this?

Its a shame because Fprime had really become an integral part of my workflow, I feel lost without it. It is such a time saver.

prometheus
04-13-2011, 07:16 AM
I have an external arch viz scene which renders clean in vpr in 40 secs, and is still a big blurry mess in FP. Takes about 3 mins for FP to clean up sufficiently. A half res f9 render takes 50 secs.

Thatīs funny, In lightwave 10, vpr just cant handle all the data with same flying colors in terms of speed as fprime does in lightwave 10

I throw in machine constructions with vertex normals, and those are probably the big slowdown bugger, poly sizes between 500 000-800 000..
domelight and a few area lights in combination with radiosity, in fprime it updates pretty fast, but in VPR it just cant seem to refine properly and initial refinement is Way to slow.

But for other stuff with volumetrics, VPR really rocks, ozone works, turbulence fluids etc, Im just missing lensflares and bloom.

Michael

dwburman
04-13-2011, 11:55 AM
Well, you could install Windows and boot into Windows for LW sessions... not ideal, of course.

simonlion
04-23-2011, 12:28 AM
I added an Image map, and Procedural Texture using a Graph Editor, and I animated about 300 frames. I opened Both Fprime, and VPR, While Playing the animation, I noticed Fprime is much quicker than VPR. As amatter of fact, while playing the animation I noticed VPR is not moving. Later Lightwave Crashed. I dont know If It crashed because of FPrime, or because Both FPrime, and VPR were running at the same time.
simon..

Axis3d
04-27-2011, 06:11 PM
Fprime is great for surfacing your models. You can click on the image in an Fprime window and the surface editor opens up with the current surface already selected. That saves me tons of time not having to hunt for a surface name on a model with lots of surfaces. Also, I like being able to zoom up close to a detail in the Fprime render window.

I wish LW 10's vpr window could be a floating window and allow the same surface integration.

prometheus
04-28-2011, 02:53 AM
Fprime is great for surfacing your models. You can click on the image in an Fprime window and the surface editor opens up with the current surface already selected. That saves me tons of time not having to hunt for a surface name on a model with lots of surfaces. Also, I like being able to zoom up close to a detail in the Fprime render window.

I wish LW 10's vpr window could be a floating window and allow the same surface integration.

Absolutly agree on that, fprime has upper hand on surfacing workflow, and the floating window is something I believe will arrive eventually to the vpr, to be able to rip of the viewport to a scalable window would be nice and probably more effective.

In the end It would be awesome if VPR also could adapt some of that zooming/panning and surface picking, and ultimatly within the ripped off vpr window, there should be an option to use it in a similar way to viper when doing preview animations instead of doing it through the create preview today..It would be so much faster workflow wise,viper is scale limited thou with four presets ..wich the new VPR previewer shouldnīt be.
Ultimatly it would be great if the update speed and quality could work as good as possible in order to completly replace viper..with animation previews in a similar manner, this time it would be with a fully scene context previewer.

Michael

Mr Rid
07-30-2011, 03:30 AM
Am just barely poking at LW10 when I get a moment (so far things are only immediately disappointing). It took me 20 minutes to figure how the hell you activate the VPR. I had no clue where the 'Viewport Options' were, described in the docs. I kept looking under View tab, View Modes, Render tab... 'Viewport Options' dont turn up in a menu search or docs search...? Finally found a YT vid where the demo showed where it was. GEEZE

The first scene I tried to compare to FPRime is a simple white room, with a figure in it, GI 3 bounce. It took VPR 2 minutes to get close to the same res that FPrime did in 2 seconds... so FPrime is about 120 times faster than VPR... what am I missing?! Am using a Quadra FX 3800. LW10 is also rendering the same scene significantly slower than LW96(?).

geo_n
07-30-2011, 04:23 AM
Vpr is not gpu accelerated. Its not as fast as fprime in most cases especially complex scenes but it is version 1. Fprime is years ahead. But vpr will show more that fprime doesn't have access to. Shaders and volumetric already work in vpr at this early stage.

Mr Rid
07-30-2011, 08:46 AM
Vpr is not gpu accelerated. Its not as fast as fprime in most cases especially complex scenes but it is version 1....

Hardly the picture painted by NT's promos. Nowhere near as fast as FPrime... its the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it. Offhand, am finding it useless even in a simple scene- one 200k poly mesh in a blank room with three area lights (no GI or reflection)- the update is very sluggish and keeps hanging. Just moving a light, its so slow to show a recognizable image that I cant tell what changed. At the moment its actually frozen LW entirely and I have to end process. I get the same rez in about the same time it takes to do it the old way by rendering with a lower camera multiplier, zoom the image (QV40 is the most efficient, over the image viewer) and click back and forth with the previous image to compare, which is still a much more thorough way to see changes (since your eye can only look at one area at a time), and even faster when using limited region. Entirely disappointing, yet expected.

prometheus
07-30-2011, 09:32 AM
Hardly the picture painted by NT's promos. Nowhere near as fast as FPrime... its the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it. Am finding it useless even in a simple scene- one 200k poly mesh in a blank room with three lights (no GI or reflection)- the update is very sluggish and keeps hanging LW altogether. Just moving a light, its so slow to show a recognizable image that I cant tell what changed. At the moment its actually frozen LW entirely and I have to end process. I get the same rez in about the same time it takes to do it the old way by rendering with a lower camera multiplier, zoom the image (QV40 works fastest) and click back and forth with the previous image to compare. Entirely disappointing, yet expected.

working with radiosity is way more easy within fprime and also surfacing and zooming in to details and having a seperate ripped of viewport.

However I have some use for the vpr for product renders when I have cad formats from solidworks to deep exploration to obj format with vertex smoothin normals.

Fprime can not handle the vertex smoothin from obj format( except for the true art obj plugin), neither can lightwave standard cam(wich it should) the only way to get correct smoothing angles from imported geometry is to use the perspective cam or real cams, that works correctly and since VPR can use perspective cam and fprime does not, that gives the vpr an advantage even thou slower with radiosity.

then fibre fx..cannot be shown in fprime, but works in vpr, same goes for many shaders.

Also the ability to work with voxels in full scene context are pretty nice, and is handled way more better than in fprime.

Vpr needs some more refinement thou before getting really awesome, mainly stopping pausing the refinement and be able to pick it up later, as it is now if you are working with something in the background like checking a web page and switching back, the vpr starts to refine from scratch again, thatīs annoying.

Then it would be a good idea to have a rip off panel modul to choose if you like, in the same manner as fprime.
Also as you mentioned Mr rid..hard to find vpr...why the heck not add a vpr text button up in the corners instead of hiding it within the viewport display menu?

I like that you can create preview animations, I usually go to the display preferences and undock the preview window, and the go to create preview and you will get it to create a preview from the vpr, almost like viper for voxels, but with full scene context and that is something I was
pusing for some years ago, however setting up a preview within viper is much easier and smoother and something like that is what should be worked on for the VPR.

I also experience som crashes when doing previews in vpr.

skytracer,hypervoxels, and using turbulence fluids is really nice in FPR
and also using volumetric lights with sprite clips.

The most annoying issue I have right now with lightwave 10 is the color space, partly to understand it fully, and also due to lightwave 10.0 and 10.1 can screw up the configs menu pallette, so be careful not to use them at the same time and close the hub, I have done so..but even thou i had it closed I got it screwed up anyway..completly unreadable color interface.

I think I need to remove the lw 10.0 installation completly and rely on the 10.1 solely to avoid screw up, I have a problem thou since all my work files of machines and interior is in the old 10.0 color space and that might be screwed up within 10.1

O by the way, Mr Rid, I suggest you move your lights cams in some other viewport with only wireframe, that will be much smoother and faster, donīt try to attempt doing that within the vpr window.

Michael

Axis3d
07-30-2011, 09:46 AM
I have read that VPR works with FiberFX, but whenever I enable VPR, it only shows the model without the fibers. Is there something that needs to be toggled on in FiberFX to get VPR to see it?

The colorspace issue can be disabled by leaving everything set to Linear.

At work, I have to use a mac to run LW and realize that some openGL features run much worse than on the pc. On the mac version, when I enable the DOF / MotionBlur preview in the viewport, it is much slower to respond and also, it displays as a banded 8-bit looking display. It may be because I'm used to an Nvidia quadro card in my pc version - and the mac has an ATI card.

prometheus
07-30-2011, 09:59 AM
I have read that VPR works with FiberFX, but whenever I enable VPR, it only shows the model without the fibers. Is there something that needs to be toggled on in FiberFX to get VPR to see it?

The colorspace issue can be disabled by leaving everything set to Linear.

At work, I have to use a mac to run LW and realize that some openGL features run much worse than on the pc. On the mac version, when I enable the DOF / MotionBlur preview in the viewport, it is much slower to respond and also, it displays as a banded 8-bit looking display. It may be because I'm used to an Nvidia quadro card in my pc version - and the mac has an ATI card.



Check volume only in the fibre fx panel, right click in the vpr viewport to update/refresh then it should work with fibre fx.

Im not sure the color space issue can be solved by leaving it set to linear, you shouldnt have lightwave 10.0 and 10.1 running at the same time and you should make sure to close the hub before starting the different versions...so I canīt see how and if that works as you mentioned.

Michael

Mr Rid
08-15-2011, 11:51 PM
...

Also the ability to work with voxels in full scene context are pretty nice, and is handled way more better than in fprime....

Michael

Am finding it way too slow for voxels I try it with. Viper is still proving more useful. VPR is lacking the helpful traits of Viper like easily isolating only HVs or a particular item with a click, and being a separate window where I can easily set size and res, and to quickly minimize when I dont need it to calculate. And locating a surface by clicking in Viper is such a handy trick. VPR is also choking unusably when anything is running in the background, even when the BG app is set to low priority. Am used to multitasking. LW is crashing when I try to run Viper and VPR in a voxel scene.

prometheus
08-16-2011, 12:49 AM
Am finding it way too slow for voxels I try it with. Viper is still proving more useful. VPR is lacking the helpful traits of Viper like easily isolating only HVs or a particular item with a click, and being a separate window where I can easily set size and res, and to quickly minimize when I dont need it to calculate. And locating a surface by clicking in Viper is such a handy trick. VPR is also choking unusably when anything is running in the background, even when the BG app is set to low priority. Am used to multitasking. LW is crashing when I try to run Viper and VPR in a voxel scene.

Viper and VPR should not be used at the same time,(it will crash) that is explicit explained within the build update infoīs from chuck, but I missed that too in the beginning.

I agree with you on viper, it is still faster mostly for hypervoxel testīs and also creating previewīs from turbulence fluids, thou it lacks scene context if you need that.

When VPR can refine as good as viper without crashing and almost as fast, and also having those animation options available directly as in viper, then it will start to be really nice..right now I usally have to undock the preview window from the display tab and then go to create preview..that needs to be consolidated in to a VPR panel setting..
Basicly create a vpr button activation instead of hiding it beside the viewport display options, and then make it an option to rip off the panel as in viper or fprime, with included animation save&playback options.

Michael

Mr Rid
08-16-2011, 02:49 PM
Viper and VPR should not be used at the same time,(it will crash) that is explicit explained within the build update infoīs from chuck,

Not that I need both on, but am actually not having a problem running both Viper and VPR, except in a particular voxel scene.

But VPR just does not replace Fprime. Its too slow for any substantial tracing or voxel scenes I've tried. Havent tried volumetric lights but I cant remember the last time I needed one. But I dont really use Fprime either. Its better for texturing than lighting. I mostly use QV viewer (much more funtional than Image Viewer- another thing that sorely needs to be updated) so I can quickly flip back and forth to compare various before and after renders. The eye can only look one place at a time, and you cant tell what all changed exactly when the image keeps jumping to mosaic.

Cageman
08-16-2011, 02:56 PM
I would suggest to move over to LW10.1 asap, as there are too many bugs in 10.0. Stability in LW10.1 is as good as LW9.6, and ever since we started using LCW, we can't go back. It makes things so much nicer, especially when working heavily with compositing.

:)

Elmar Moelzer
08-16-2011, 03:15 PM
True no lights but hypervoxels it does.
Does not do VoluMedic or any other volumetric plugin either, VPR does it AND FRACKING FAST! VPR is so fast with VoluMedic that it beats F9 in quite a few situations. I have not touched Viper since VPR came around and I dont think I will ever bother it again.
Both Viper and Fprime only work in the Camera view. VPR works in any view!
People need to learn to embrace VPR for what it is, an interactive preview renderer. If you want final renderings, use the F9 renderer!


I agree with you on viper, it is still faster mostly for hypervoxel testīs and also creating previewīs from turbulence fluids, thou it lacks scene context if you need that.

At the same resolution? Also Viper does not even support all the features of HVs! That is probably why it is faster!

And I think that VPR is right where it should be in the Viewport menue as a View Mode, because that is what it is, a view mode like any of the OpenGL view modes.
IMHO there is room for a VPR in a separate panel that would then have special functionalities like surface picking etc, (but you wont be able to do any animation work in that VPR- Panel then, like you can theoretically do with VPR in the viewports now.

A big problem at the moment is that there can only be one VPR viewport at a time. I also do not like that it does not behave like other viewmodes in regards to defaults, how it is saved with the scene, etc.
IMHO there is still a lot of room for improvement there.

In regards to GI speed, Fprime is still hard to beat. That is a principal problem with LWs render engine though and should be adressed as such.
This is not a problem with VPR or the concept of VPR itself.
NT should invest some time in speeding up the raytracer and the multisampling. As Fprime shows, there is still some room for improvement there.
In addition to this, VPR should embrace its function as a previewer more. There are many things that can be done then to make it faster. I have named quite a few things in several paces in the past.

Overall though, I have to say that VPR has been an absolute blessing. It is fantastic how well it works with VoluMedic. I just wished, we would have had that years ago!

monovich
08-16-2011, 05:03 PM
VPR is pretty fantastic. It isn't perfect, but its already integrating very nicely into my workflow.

prometheus
08-17-2011, 12:35 AM
I would suggest to move over to LW10.1 asap, as there are too many bugs in 10.0. Stability in LW10.1 is as good as LW9.6, and ever since we started using LCW, we can't go back. It makes things so much nicer, especially when working heavily with compositing.

:)

yepp..I will do that too, cant go on having screwed up UI color space when that sometimes happens Even thou I seem to have closed the hub and both modeler and layout before starting 10.0 or 10.1

Im a little worried thou that all our scenefiles from LW10 already done should end up completly different due to the color space, when I need to produce new renders in LW10.1

Michael

prometheus
08-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Does not do VoluMedic or any other volumetric plugin either, VPR does it AND FRACKING FAST! VPR is so fast with VoluMedic that it beats F9 in quite a few situations. I have not touched Viper since VPR came around and I dont think I will ever bother it again.
Both Viper and Fprime only work in the Camera view. VPR works in any view!
People need to learn to embrace VPR for what it is, an interactive preview renderer. If you want final renderings, use the F9 renderer!



At the same resolution? Also Viper does not even support all the features of HVs! That is probably why it is faster!

And I think that VPR is right where it should be in the Viewport menue as a View Mode, because that is what it is, a view mode like any of the OpenGL view modes.
IMHO there is room for a VPR in a separate panel that would then have special functionalities like surface picking etc, (but you wont be able to do any animation work in that VPR- Panel then, like you can theoretically do with VPR in the viewports now.

A big problem at the moment is that there can only be one VPR viewport at a time. I also do not like that it does not behave like other viewmodes in regards to defaults, how it is saved with the scene, etc.
IMHO there is still a lot of room for improvement there.

In regards to GI speed, Fprime is still hard to beat. That is a principal problem with LWs render engine though and should be adressed as such.
This is not a problem with VPR or the concept of VPR itself.
NT should invest some time in speeding up the raytracer and the multisampling. As Fprime shows, there is still some room for improvement there.
In addition to this, VPR should embrace its function as a previewer more. There are many things that can be done then to make it faster. I have named quite a few things in several paces in the past.

Overall though, I have to say that VPR has been an absolute blessing. It is fantastic how well it works with VoluMedic. I just wished, we would have had that years ago!

The problem here...I donīt have volumedic:D

I disagree with you on where VPR should be located thou, from what Ivé seen here on forums, people seem to have trouble locating it..unless reading manuals properly.

Besides having a vpr button isnīt a question regardin logic of where it should be,rather a logic on where it is fastest acessible, wich in this case would be a button instead of clicking and scroll down a menu.

Oki..VPR at the same resolution would be equally fast? donīt know really, the thing is that You need to acess the preview panel in a manner wich is far more tedious, than how you do it within viper.

Basicly VPR is in my meaning less workflow friendly than checking out previews inside of viper...for animated voxel behaviour or turbulence fluids.

Michael

Elmar Moelzer
08-17-2011, 01:19 AM
I disagree with you on where VPR should be located thou, from what Ivé seen here on forums, people seem to have trouble locating it..unless reading manuals properly.
So a button for each viewport? Because ultimately (so I hope), VPR will be working for several viewports at once.
I think the button idea works if you have a separate panel, which could be a good idea IN ADDITION to the view mode. Most of my clients would not accept VPR in a separate panel, btw. They hate LWs floating panels as they are already.

prometheus
08-17-2011, 01:31 AM
So a button for each viewport? Because ultimately (so I hope), VPR will be working for several viewports at once.
I think the button idea works if you have a separate panel, which could be a good idea IN ADDITION to the view mode. Most of my clients would not accept VPR in a separate panel, btw. They hate LWs floating panels as they are already.

Yeah why not a button for each viewport, we already have a scroll menu for each viewport donīt we:D and zoom and pan buttons and other vpr buttons in the same space, heck I can even think of a grid on of button up there to.

Dont see any issues with having a vpr button next to the other ones for the settings, just makes logic in my eyes...you could still have the vpr remaining in the scroll menu if that would work faster for some people.

Floating panels isnīt bad..that is if you can choose to have them floating or not, and Most important a proper docking/expanding panel.

I still prefer fprimeīs docking scaleable window instead of VPR, wich has itīs wiewport panel connected to the other viewports..and any changes
within that viewport would mess with the others, destroying your schemed setup.

Yes I hate to many floating panels too..but that just shows that they arenīt made properly with docking functions and expand/close panel options..we got a uhh..minimize/restore and the tab hide function..not the best function really for floating panels.

But that is a major UI issue that core was trying to change, dont know if Newtek can do a little more work on the floating panels?

VPR for several viewports at once, might seem nice, but wouldnīt that be a system resource clogger of major format?

Michael

Cageman
08-17-2011, 01:43 AM
Not that I need both on, but am actually not having a problem running both Viper and VPR, except in a particular voxel scene.

But VPR just does not replace Fprime. Its too slow for any substantial tracing or voxel scenes I've tried. Havent tried volumetric lights but I cant remember the last time I needed one. But I dont really use Fprime either. Its better for texturing than lighting. I mostly use QV viewer (much more funtional than Image Viewer- another thing that sorely needs to be updated) so I can quickly flip back and forth to compare various before and after renders. The eye can only look one place at a time, and you cant tell what all changed exactly when the image keeps jumping to mosaic.

If you are going to move over to LW10.x and take advantage of LCW, you need to drop QV as an imageviewer since it lacks the concept of LCW. By the sounds of it though, it seems you are going to stick with LW9.x.

:)

prometheus
08-17-2011, 01:58 AM
Havent tried volumetric lights but I cant remember the last time I needed one.

working with volumetric lights for nebula backdrops can be nice, unless you rather use an image or texture backdrop.

this screen recording of VPR has a volumetric light as backdrop blue nebula, but only volumetric in sprite mode that is, it is really fast compared to true volumetric light..but gives a nice light nebula with texture only activated.

http://vimeo.com/26483041

The full mode of volumeric lights are considerably slower thou.
I wish for lensflares showing up someday to in vpr if possible.



Michael

erikals
08-17-2011, 04:34 AM
as far as i can tell VPR works best for exteriors...(?)

prometheus
08-17-2011, 04:43 AM
as far as i can tell VPR works best for exteriors...(?)

Absolutly, not much for global illumination to bounce on exactly.

I can barely use the VPR with radiosity on for this project...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121535

unless deactivating radiosity and only use that for final renders.
4.8 million polys and all of them have clogging vertex normal maps.

If I were to remove the vertex normals, that would speed up some things I guess, but then again I wouldnīt get proper shading.

Michael