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Peter Palesh
10-02-2003, 12:10 PM
Simple projects run like crap compared to VT2.
I have lowered as many settings as possible to get this simple edit to run smoothly. I've checked and re-checked everything that i can think of adjusting or that might not work and I am at a loss.

The only things I have in this project are still shots with a wave file underneath... it plays stops plays stops...so-on. Even adding a force render doesn't make it play smoothly.

With VT2 I could have 4layers + sound and it would play smoothly.

Don't know what to do now... done whining!!! :confused:

Jim_C
10-02-2003, 12:18 PM
Just a thought.. Is this a project that was saved prior to the new T3 patch.
Pre patch projects have given poor playback just like that UNTIL resaved under a new name post patch.
Just a thought.

Peter Palesh
10-02-2003, 12:21 PM
It's a new project conceived and saved in VT3.

JReble
10-02-2003, 12:49 PM
I'm sorry to say I've had similar experiences with some sections of my timelines. No conceivable reason since complex sections can play fine, but some single streams with a static cg overlay will studder and not necessarily play right after doing a force render. This is with everything on the video array and after a defragment. Never had these problems in VT2.

It looks like the VT3 software has made a previously up to spec VT2 system less than fully functional.

Jim_C
10-02-2003, 01:33 PM
>>>It looks like the VT3 software has made a previously up to spec VT2 system less than fully functional.|


I would agree if it was the other way around. Single CGs play fine, complex studder, but since it's not I'm guessing (hoping) its a kink and will be ironed out.
CG pages seem to be somewhat a common link (somewhat) between folks complaining of studders.
The force render not fixing it also points to a bug and not performance issues since the force render should make the system configs moot..


Heres to hoping...

jim

ted
10-02-2003, 01:53 PM
Peter, What are the specs of your system, how long are your projects and what file types are you using?
We use mainly .rtv's and .png's and are not seeing what your seeing. (Not to say it's you or your system).

There are so many variables to consider.
Have you given NewTek all the details and gotten a response?

Peter Palesh
10-02-2003, 02:36 PM
- A-Bit TH7-II- i850 - AC'97 Audio
- Intel P4 1.8GHz
- (4) 256M ram bus
- Asus V7100 GeForce 2 MX 32M 4xAGP
- Adaptec 2100S U160 scsi controller
- (4) Fujitsu 18G U160 10kRpm (Dynamic disk setup in Win2k)
- (2) Maxtor 40G ide
- Acer 32x CD-Rom drive
- Win2K sp2
- 450W power supply
- Pyro 1394 firewire card
- Cicero 10/100 ethernet card

It's not an extremely fast machine (duh!) but it works. The video drive is only at 11% usage.

The project that I put together today is about 2.5mins long, 34png stills and a wave file. That's it.

I haven't contacted tech support yet because --> out of frustration I thought I would whine and complain here first :D

wvp
10-02-2003, 08:13 PM
You should contact tech support.
But I also think it would be benifical if Newtek were to respond to posts like this to shed their light on it. A response that either clears the issue up as being system specific or indicates they are working on a fix is better than everyone wondering.
I mean, with all do respect to Newtek, I am not sure I should install my VT[3] software.

Brian Peterson
10-02-2003, 09:12 PM
Peter,

I would suggest that you check the ram. I just went thru a long troubleshooting experience with a server I had built, ended up being a bad stick of ram. Bad ram does not necessarily mean a total crash, it can have strange effects on the computer without crashing.

From looking at you computer specs, it's underpowered. And yes Newtek has said mainy times in the past that their philosopy with the Vt line is that by the time they offer a major upgrade you will be ready to upgrade your computer. So while this system was optimal for your needs under T2, it does not mean it is under T3. I went from a PIII dual xeon 800 system for T1 to T2 on the same system, which is ultimately not much slower than your 1.8 P4 to upgrading with T3 to a 3.02 P4 with hyperthreading.

If nothing else you may consider upgrading your ram to at least 2 512s and not 4 256s. I have found that the bigger the chip of ram the better. This is from personal experience.

If you decide to upgrade your system, the only things you need to change is the MB, CPU and Ram. I'm having very good luck with the Biostar 877 chipset board, the 3.02 and 2 512 DDr. It's cost ya about $700.00.

WVP, Newtek isn't an integrator. You will find that the majority in fact all the PC NLE manufacturers rely on the knowledge of their retailers to troubleshoot hardware/system profiles. The only thing they do to my knowledge is by the boxes from a integrator, (HP and Boxx I believe right now) and then make sure their software works on the boxes they bought.

I'm not seeing any of the problems Peter's seeing and I just completed a 500 picture montage yesterday.

Brian

JReble
10-03-2003, 07:09 AM
Well, with all respect to others that chimed in, I have to point out that at least 3 of us, and I know of 2 others, are having these studdering issues. I think that's enough to consider this an "issue" and do away with any minimizing of the problem. If some of you with faster machines are not seeing this great, but be careful not to frame this an a non issue, or bury the issue with "I don't have the problem" comments. If you have any helpful feedback about the specific problem, that would be more than appreciated.

I agree with Jim that this would seem to be a software issue since low system resources should simply require rendering rather than resulting in these kind of malfunctions. I can also note that certain complex segments utilizing some of the new properties functions of VT3 will definitely studder as well. That would be expected, but they should still know to render before the green light goes on. At the very least, they should all work flawlessly with a force render filter. The green light over the play button is not nearly as friendly since I can't trust it anymore.

Liber777
10-03-2003, 07:45 AM
The only advice I have is to check Preferences and make certain that your Cache setting for VT-Edit is set to your fastest video array, and not on a system drive, if you haven't already.

I created a VT_Cache folder on one of the video arrays to keep the drive organized. If the cache settings are pointed to the system or program drive, you can get squirrely playback such as you're describing.

Rob222
10-03-2003, 08:13 AM
The system resources of your P4 1.8 are very low for what it takes to run some of the effects. CG files are processor intensive, ram intensive and hard drive intensive. You are running an alpha channel and your system is stuttering while it is trying to play the CG file. One thing you can try is to separate your SCSI channels. If you have a dual channel card put two of the drives on one channel and the other two on the other. This will help speed them up. If you don't have a dual channel card get a second one and separate the drives.

You can also check your preferences in VT and make sure your PCI bus speed is set high enough. It may be set too low. Check the processor and PCI bus speed for the VT module you are running and make sure they are set at an optimal setting. It is great to have the ability to tweak the VT system. If you are running multiple applications at one time try decreasing the setting for the one you use the least and upping the setting for the one you use the most. This usually does not need to be done with faster systems but it does help on the older systems that don't have as many resources to give up.

Ultimately I recommend an upgrade to either an Intel Hyperthread board and processor, or the Dual Xeon. The single P4 Hyperthread is inexpensive and when combined with Windows XP can be a very powerful solution. Be sure if you do either to enable Hyperthread in the bios. You gain about 25% more performance when Hyperthreading is enabled.

JReble
10-03-2003, 08:59 AM
Thanks everyone for the input. Rechecking the preferences and other variables is certainly in order, but again I've got to point out that telling us to get a faster system at this point is not a solution, especially considering Newtek has moved on and does not appear to have any intentions of fixing serious flaws in VT2 software like the CG and audio levels.

We're not asking to get realtime performance with a bunch of 3d positioning effects piled on top of a bunch of other new VT3 effects. We're having issues with simple static overlays on a single stream to start with. The software should do that trouble free. If the system can't handle a simple overlay from the video array when it could just fine in VT2, then something is rotten in Denmark.

To illustrate the point I have been tinkering with a variety of files on my system. A simple piece of captured video will play fine from my video array or even from my program drive when copied there. Another 20 sec. RTV video clip which was created in lightwave with alpha will not play smooth on VT3 period. Never had a problen with it at all on VT2. It is placed in the time line with nothing else there and overlay is not turned on. It will play 50% then studder frequently. It's exactly the same from the program drive.

This indicates to me that it's not a disk bandwidth issue, but a software processing issue. Sure these aren't the newest machines available here, but they were purchased less than a year ago specifically to meet and somewhat exceed VT2 required specs. Now with a new software version, some of us can't even play certain clips cleanly at all. This ain't good.

Rob222
10-03-2003, 09:11 AM
What is speed is your video drive running at? If you run the auto config what is the speed that it tells you?

I know you said everything is in order but not to sound like a broken record is your DDR cache path set to your video drive? Also your VT-Edit, is it set to your video drive.

I have also found that if you try to run effects and transitions off the video drive on the P4 system it doesn't work. I know that NewTek recommends putting your DVE's on the video drive but I run mine off my C: drive. It works better this way for me. Anytime I tried to run it on the video drive I got stuttering.

Also, make sure your hard drive has been defragmented.

Brian Peterson
10-03-2003, 10:25 AM
JReble, actually what is being described here is exactly the same problem I encountered with the last patch on T2! I had gotten to the point where I rendered any part of the timeline that stuttered to it's own RTV clip. At one point I hauled my card and software over to a friend's house who had a dual P4 Xeon system and we spent the afternoon playing with the Toasster on his computer. Never saw once the problems I was having with the final patch on my system

I have no idea the coding that Andrew and crew put into the VT3, but from the looks of it it's nearly a whole new animal. Andyes from my years of experience working and building computers I can believe that Peter's computer is now overloaded and bogging down. It could be that the cpu would power VT3 fine and it could be some other component in the computer causing problems. When I overhauled mine recently my old Abit raid card would crash the computer every time I booted the software. Replace the card with an escalade and I'm up an running. Is there anything wrong with the card, no but it is no longer compatiable with VT3.

The same can go for motherboards, lan cards whatever. I don't know what your computer setup is like but from what Peter has posted, he is underpowered and I would bet that with at least a MB/CPU/Ram upgrade he would be just fine.

JReble
10-03-2003, 10:30 AM
Disks are defragmented completely. Auto config shows avg. 98 MB/s on the video array, 26 MB/s to 44 MB/s on the program IDE drives. All indicate they can be used for video, but obviously only the video array is in use for real work. Cache for both DDR and Tedit are on the video drive. Place the studdering clip I mentioned under the other clip and turn on overlay....It thinks for a few seconds, the green light comes on and they both play smooth. By itself though with overlay off it wouldn't play correctly. I have exactly the opposite symptoms on other clips where putting the overlay ontop make the studder occur.

I haven't tried the new patch yet. With tons of luck, the more effecient usage of resources will correct this. I'll try as soon as I master my current project. God help us.
:rolleyes:

wvp
10-03-2003, 12:12 PM
Brian,
My comment about Newtek was to say that it would benifical (to them) if the people rading these forms saw Newtek address an issue as either A) "We are not aware of this issue, but please feel free to contact technical support and we attempt to assist you" or B) "We are aware of this issue and are working on a fix for it" OR " ... and we have not found any connection to the software".
A reply such as one of these would help some readers in understanding how great (or not) the toaster is.

Having said all this, it sounds like this issue may very well be one of the computer not being powerful enough, as it sounds like people who have faster computers are not seeing this issue.

kleima
10-03-2003, 01:29 PM
Generally, as a rule, more powerful software requires more powerful machine to run it. Even Microsoft knows that!
I had a machine almost like yours and had stuttering problems with VT[3]. With new MB, RAM, & CPU's, no problems.
Hate to keep coming back to the same thing, since I'm sure it's not what anyone wants to hear, but if this is the solution to your problems, it at least deserves consideration.

JReble
10-03-2003, 02:24 PM
Gheesh...Yes we know buying an entirely new host system every year would probably make life great. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.
These systems were purchased specifically for the Toaster. If Newtek wants to make a new version of software that makes better use of the latest machines great. That doesn't mean that it should malfunction with lower than top of the line resources. It's supposed to render what it needs to and let you know it's ready to play a timeline. It's not doing that. It can't even play some single streams that were child's play on the previous version of software, which by the way will never have the CG and other issues corrected due to the release of this version. This is a bug. It should be addressed.

I'm not about to consider paying for a new host system AND a new software version annually just to have the thing working properly as expected with the first purchase. If the only assistance you can offer is "buy a faster computer" then consider that note taken, and please leave the rest of us to try to address this in a constructive way.

Brian Peterson
10-03-2003, 11:05 PM
A) "We are not aware of this issue, but please feel free to contact technical support and we attempt to assist you" or B) "We are aware of this issue and are working on a fix for it" OR " ... and we have not found any connection to the software".

WVP, it would be nice, and lets be honest Andrew, Paul, Chuck and crew have a number of times stepped in and answered such questions. Paul stated on the VTNT today that they are out of the office at some sort of meetings. Could be these boards aren't being viewed. At the same time, there may not be an answer or one of us have given it and they don't feel like they can add anything. Obviously from the problem Peter posted it is most likely a underpowered system problem. Or my second bet would be bad ram. Really isn't much Newtek can fix on either of those two. They don't test ram and they have made public the miniumum specs, which Peter doesn't have.

Now if you want to talk unresponsive companies, try to get any answer out of Apple on FCP or DVDSP!. Frankly we are spoiled with the fantastic customer service Newtek offers and having the likes of Andrew, Paul, Chuck, et al, running around the chat boards. Count your blessings that they do listen and respond for the most part on a regular basis.


If the only assistance you can offer is "buy a faster computer" then consider that note taken, and please leave the rest of us to try to address this in a constructive way.

What is your computer specs, JReble? Does it meet the minimum specs. If your computer is underpowered for what you are trying to do then that IS the issue! Yes Newtek offers scalable software. But those minimum specs exist for a reason! That is the minimum you can expect the software to work as it should on a computer. If you are trying to run it on something that is underpowered, potentially has incompatiable hardware or whatever, then frankly expect to have problems! I ran T2 for it's entire eistance from Beta on up to the last patch on an under powered platfrom from day one. Did it work flawlessly, no. I had my problems, but they were problems I accepted because I made the decision to ignore Newtek's minimum specs. In fact as I said on the final patch it exhibited the same problem you are complaining about here on the T3!

Now have you tired to render the sequence into it's own clip? And if so does that play okay? What other programs do you have installed? Is anything running in the background? Are all of your components rated to work with T3? My Abit card sure didn't want to work anylonger with VT. But it's in a different computer now running 4 DVD burners on it's chain.

bbeanan
10-04-2003, 08:42 AM
I have only read the start of this thread but I will chime in as having stuttering issues as well... on my project http://www.n2itive.com/clip.htm
I have 4 layers of video 3 of them overlayed on top of each other and while it will play it has one heck of a stutter... my system is a Dual 1.8 Xenon system with 1gig ram.

With VT2 I could do 6 layers before I would really see a noticable stutter... then I would just let it background render and it would play fine. With VT3 I can let it sit there all day and the green light will be on but I will still get stutter playback.

Rob222
10-06-2003, 07:40 AM
The VT software reads ahead before it plays. Be sure to go ahead 5 seconds of the effect or multiple layers so that it has time to read ahead. This may stop the stuttering. If it still occurs then there is definitely something else wrong.

JReble
10-07-2003, 07:33 AM
There is something else wrong. And why does the green light come on when the software will not play the timeline cleanly. It's not like the preferences are telling the software it's running in a faster system with greater bandwidth than is really there.

Rob222
10-07-2003, 08:28 AM
I see the problem. I have found it to do the same thing on my system with just 4 layers of video. However using the force render effect I have been able to get up to 9 layers of video so far. I am still building more layers to see how far I can go. I am sure this is a problem that Newtek can fix but as a workaround right now I would recommend that if you have a project where you start to get the stutter use the force render effect.

I don't want to sound like I am burying the issue because I am not. NewTek needs to look at this issue and fix it. Just use the effect and you will get good playing video. You don't have to lay it over the whole project just over the section that has a problem playing. Use it multiple times. Use it for now and let them fix the problem.

BTW,

I am running a P4 2.4Ghz 800Mhz HT processor. This effect should allow you to get your work done without having to upgrade. I don't see why it wouldn't work with your setup.

Doran
10-07-2003, 10:20 AM
Have you tried installing the newest bios version for your Mobo? Perhaps there is a performance issue that was corrected later.

Rob222
10-07-2003, 10:25 AM
I have the latest bios for my MB. I don't think it would be a bios issue since this is a problem that is carrying over from a P4, to a P4 HT, and even a Xeon HT.