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View Full Version : Upgrade to LW10. Cheapish way?



Gus
03-26-2011, 03:28 AM
I'm planning to upgrade to LW10 and I wanted to knkow what's the cheaspish way to do that.

I'm located in Spain (Europe)

OPTION 1:
Buy directly from newtek.com, 495$ (350€)
- Can I do that?
- Once payment done do they ship the soft to my home?
- Do they ship from France (newtek europe) and must I pay spanish VAT (18%) or any other VAT?

OPTION 2:
Buy from newtek europe, 395€ + 19,6% VAT FRANCE = 472 €

Has someone tried OPTION 1 from Europe?
What happened?

Thankyou
Gus

meshpig
03-26-2011, 05:04 AM
Mail Vanita Harvison [email protected] She is on the money currently:)

Gus
03-26-2011, 05:26 AM
I contacted IRENE KING from Newtek Europe Sales and I think she's to busy "processing orders" to answer more than two lines to me:
That's what she wrote to the above questions:


We ship all products to Europe, Middle East and Africa through our Master Distributor, 3D Storm.
Please contact Marc Gaillard at 33-557-262-262 or via email at [email protected] for a quotation.

I don't want to buy from newtek-europe, they do charge more VAT (France VAT) that here in my country and they are expensive than in USA.


We ship all products to 3D Storm, as VAT must be charged, so you may purchase this from 3D Storm.

Then why I can buy fron newtek.com? In the final checkout process no VAT is added, will I have to pay this VAT in my customs agency? do they charge this VAT in another billing?

Are those questions too much difficult for Newtek? Do they have too much orders to lose time with my questions?

I contacted two or three local distributors (in my country) two months ago and I haven't had any answers. They haven't even answered my emails.

I'll try Vanita Harvison. Let's see what she says.

Thankyou
Gus

P.S No one from europe has updated LW? ;-)

pauland
03-26-2011, 05:36 AM
will I have to pay this VAT in my customs agency?

Most likely. In the UK the software won't be delivered without payment to the courier/postal services/customs


Are those questions too much difficult for Newtek? Do they have too much orders to lose time with my questions?
Perhaps they have less time to explain the simple facts of life to people trying to avoid tax.


I contacted two or three local distributors (in my country) two months ago and I haven't had any answers. They haven't even answered my emails.
Why would they want to get involved with potential tax evasion?

SBowie
03-26-2011, 05:43 AM
I contacted IRENE KING from Newtek Europe Sales and I think she's to busy "processing orders" to answer more than two lines to me: (snip) Are those questions too much difficult for Newtek??It would appear not, since you got one, which seems reasonably clear - and you got it personally from Irene King, who really is a very busy person, being Director of Worldwide Sales Operations (rather than in "NewTek Europe Sales"). The problem seems to be that the answer isn't the one you were hoping for.

Gus
03-26-2011, 06:05 AM
Perhaps they have less time to explain the simple facts of life to people trying to dodge tax.

Where have you read I wan't to dodge tax? Did you read it on any of my posts?

I don't want to pay France VAT because I don't live in France and in Spain we have lower taxes. (almost three months ago). It's so difficult to understand this?


Why would they want to get involved with potential tax evasion?
What are you talking about?

I wan't to upgrade my license, I use original software and I pay my taxes.

Once said that...

No one has answered my "simple" questions.

What happens if I buy my upgrade license fron Newtek.com?
No VAT is added, will I have to pay VAT once in Spain? Do they charge VAT in another bill?

If I have to buy from Newtek Europe, why is possible to process trough Newtek.com?

Can someone answer this two simple questions and not talk like if I'm a criminal. I WAN'T TO PAY FOR MY UPGRADE !!!!

Thankyou
Gus

pauland
03-26-2011, 06:15 AM
must I pay spanish VAT (18%) or any other VAT?
Forgive us if this makes it look like someone whose trying to avoid paying VAT. You pay VAT regardless of where you buy it from.

All this to try and avoid paying 19.6% VAT to pay 18% VAT instead?

It used to be that Newtek.com would refuse to ship to Europe.

Gus
03-26-2011, 06:15 AM
It would appear not, since you got one, which seems reasonably clear - and you got it personally from Irene King, who really is a very busy person, being Director of Worldwide Sales Operations (rather than in "NewTek Europe Sales"). The problem seems to be that the answer isn't the one you were hoping for.

Then, if the answer is clear, all European people MUST buy Newtek products from Newtek Europe, why is possible to buy from Newtek.com to people outside USA? Why do you have resellers in Spain if they simple doesn't answer my emails? It's not good my 400€ upgrade?

Thankyou
Gus

Gus
03-26-2011, 06:22 AM
All this to try and avoid paying 19.6% VAT to pay 18% VAT instead?

It used to be that Newtek.com would refuse to ship to Europe.

All this because it's not clear the process.

Three months ago it was 16% not 18% like now. Three months ago I made those questions to Newtek and they didn't answer my emails. Three months ago I contacted 3 Spanish resellers and they didn't answered my emails. If I have to pay VAT in Spain it will cost more than this 18%, you have to pay for the person who goes to the customs agency, another fee to add plus another tax.

I think Newtek has a lot of things to improve, not only the software.

Gus

pauland
03-26-2011, 06:34 AM
If I have to pay VAT in Spain it will cost more than this 18%, you have to pay for the person who goes to the customs agency, another fee to add plus another tax.

I think Newtek has a lot of things to improve, not only the software.

Gus

You don't pay VAT in one EU country, then again in another.

You don't have customs or issues with purchases within the EU.

People don't answer email? Use the phone.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 06:35 AM
I don't want to pay France VAT because I don't live in France and in Spain we have lower taxes. (almost three months ago). It's so difficult to understand this?It seems exceedingly unlikely that, just because the shipment originates in France, French VAT would be added. When I order something here in Canada from the US, I am charged Canadian taxes by the Canadian government (only) at the time when the shipment arrives. Surely since Europe is in a common market, they will have all of this trivia worked out conveniently now?


If I have to buy from Newtek Europe, why is possible to process trough Newtek.com?For the simple convenience of those who enter the main NewTek site, one presumes.

I'm not entirely sure why this is confusing. You've been told quite clearly that any product anything ordered through the primary website for shipment to your locale is handled by 3DStorm (which certainly makes more sense, given shipping costs), and exactly who you should direct any further inquiries to.

As to your local dealer's lack of response, having been a reseller I can think of some reasons they might not bother ... but you'd best take that up with them; or ask NTE, who might inquire on your behalf.

pauland
03-26-2011, 06:42 AM
It seems exceedingly unlikely that, just because the shipment originates in France, French VAT would be added. When I order something here in Canada from the US, I am charged Canadian taxes by the Canadian government (only) at the time when the shipment arrives. Surely since Europe is in a common market, they will have all of this trivia worked out conveniently now?

I think the rule is that VAT is charged at the rate of VAT of the origination of the product - ie where the seller is. If it's bought from Newtek, France you get French VAT. If it's bought via a Spanish reseller you get Spanish VAT.

Either way, the differrence is not much money. There are no customs issues between France and Spain.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 06:58 AM
I think the rule is that VAT is charged at the rate of VAT of the origination of the product - ie where the seller is.Well, odd, although I can see a case for that being a simpler, faster approach ... but supposing that's the case, it's a matter for those who find it objectionable to take up with their political representatives. NewTek can hardly be criticized for complying with the system put in place by the governments involved on behalf of their citizens.

Gus
03-26-2011, 07:03 AM
We are talking and talking and what I would like to know isn't answered.

Let's see if I try a more graphical way you can understand me.

I buy LW10 UPGRADE from Newtek.com
495$ + VAT 18% in Spain = 584$ = 414 € (407€ 3 months ago 16% TAX)
(they can send the software from France , Hong Kong, or Australia)

I buy LW10 UPGRADE from Newtek.eu
395$ + VAT 19,6% in France = 472€

THE ONLY THING I WANT TO KNOW IF OPTION 1 IS POSSIBLE !!!!

I think this way it will be clear.

Thankyou
Gus

SBowie
03-26-2011, 07:13 AM
THE ONLY THING I WANT TO KNOW IF OPTION 1 IS POSSIBLE !!!!Let's see if I can be equally clear:

"We ship all products to Europe, Middle East and Africa through our Master Distributor, 3D Storm." This means NewTek (USA) does not ship direct to end users in Europe. So the answer is clearly, "No."

As they say in the lawyer shows, "Asked and answered." I think we can get on with life now.

pauland
03-26-2011, 07:13 AM
Don't forget shipping and perhaps import duty on top of that.

As I said before, Newtek USA used to refuse to ship outside the US because their sales were divided into territories.

Gus
03-26-2011, 07:17 AM
OK finally clear.

Thankyou
Gus

Then please recommend Newtek site to change the buying process.
It has cost me a whole morning. Time to eat something.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 07:19 AM
Don't forget shipping and perhaps import duty on top of that.I ordered an item of video gear from a popular US online group last week. Shipping costs amounted to approximately $150, for a box that weighs less than 5 pounds. I shudder to think what the price of shipping something from Texas to Spain might be.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 07:23 AM
Then please recommend Newtek site to change the buying process.The answer I gave is the same one you were given originally. Setting that aside, the buying process works just fine, and exactly as stated. It is certainly not unusual for items to be shipped from a distribution center closest to one's locale, no matter how the transaction is processed.

If you have an issue with the tax policies of the country of Spain or the European Common Market, I expect you can likely find their contact details easier than I can.


It has cost me a whole morning. Time to eat something.Pity your time was wasted. Please be assured that the rest of us were perfectly happy to take time out of our own mornings to answer the same question over and over again for you.

rsfd
03-26-2011, 07:36 AM
@ Gus:
ask yourself if you need physical shipment or if download delivery would be sufficient to you

meshpig
03-26-2011, 07:36 AM
I ordered an item of video gear from a popular US online group last week. Shipping costs amounted to approximately $150, for a box that weighs less than 5 pounds. I shudder to think what the price of shipping something from Texas to Spain might be.

That's insane, I buy stuff from the US all the time and the shipping costs are negligible and arrives in less time than I would expect something from across town. Big duties here though for anything over $1400.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 07:44 AM
That's insaneImagine how I feel. ;)

The trouble is, these places never seem to offer simple parcel post, or any less expensive shipping. It's always a courier - FedEx, UPS, what have you. And those guys don't come cheap.

I had exactly the same experience when hunting for a small portable propane heater a month back ... found exactly what I wanted for US$110, but shipping was closer to $140. I had tried to find one locally, but everyone was out of stock as it was nearing the end of the season.

meshpig
03-26-2011, 07:45 AM
I think the rule is that VAT is charged at the rate of VAT of the origination of the product - ie where the seller is. If it's bought from Newtek, France you get French VAT. If it's bought via a Spanish reseller you get Spanish VAT.

Either way, the differrence is not much money. There are no customs issues between France and Spain.

A portion of the VAT can also be ameliorated; it's where the seller is but also where the buyer is because that's where the tax is paid. Even if Newtek.com did ship to Spain you'd still pay the Spanish VAT not the US one.

meshpig
03-26-2011, 07:59 AM
Imagine how I feel. ;)

The trouble is, these places never seem to offer simple parcel post, or any less expensive shipping. It's always a courier - FedEx, UPS, what have you. And those guys don't come cheap.

I had exactly the same experience when hunting for a small portable propane heater a month back ... found exactly what I wanted for US$110, but shipping was closer to $140. I had tried to find one locally, but everyone was out of stock as it was nearing the end of the season.

I can indeed. I think what happens here is FedEx melds seamlessly with the semi privatised/once state owned ( postmaster general) postal service and so even if you go UPS or FedEx exclusively they're piggy backed all the way. Or, it sucks living in Canada because yer being ripped off!!:)

pauland
03-26-2011, 08:30 AM
A portion of the VAT can also be ameliorated; it's where the seller is but also where the buyer is because that's where the tax is paid. Even if Newtek.com did ship to Spain you'd still pay the Spanish VAT not the US one.

I also buy Adobe software. If I buy a downloaded version, I get to pay Irish VAT. If I buy a shipped box I pay UK VAT. I think it's where the service originates.

Gus
03-26-2011, 08:36 AM
@ Gus:
ask yourself if you need physical shipment or if download delivery would be sufficient to you

In fact I only need the license number but I would like to have the original dvd's plus the free rigging dvd.

Thankyou
Gus

Gus
03-26-2011, 08:37 AM
I ordered an item of video gear from a popular US online group last week. Shipping costs amounted to approximately $150, for a box that weighs less than 5 pounds. I shudder to think what the price of shipping something from Texas to Spain might be.

I have ship a whole Mac Classic Color Computer from USA to Spain for less than 40 bucks.

Gus

Gus
03-26-2011, 08:47 AM
@pauland:

People don't answer email? Use the phone.

In my work if someone emails me to spend 400€ I give him an answer inmediatly. I don't know know where do you live/work.

Gus

Gus
03-26-2011, 09:12 AM
And the "silly thing" is that my first question has not been answered yet

@SBowie

Do you "exactly" know If I proceed to check out my 395€ LW10 upgrade through newtek.com (remember that it's totally factible to do that and they do not charge shipping costs nor VAT in the process and sure someone else from EU has done that)

Will I receive an email/fax/call from Newtek Europe (remember they are the resellers for Europe) asking to pay them France VAT before shipping my dvd's?

Thankyou
Gus

pauland
03-26-2011, 09:15 AM
This is getting tedious.

pauland
03-26-2011, 09:17 AM
@pauland:


In my work if someone emails me to spend 400€ I give him an answer inmediatly. I don't know know where do you live/work.

Gus

If he's asking me QA about tax issues and incapable of picking up the phone, I'd think he's probably wasting my time.

Gus
03-26-2011, 09:20 AM
This is getting tedious.

When you read something that you don't like is getting tedious.

Gus

Gus
03-26-2011, 09:31 AM
@pauland


If he's asking me QA about tax issues and incapable of picking up the phone, I'd think he's probably wasting my time.

Did you know what I asked the spanish resellers? then, why don't you stop posting useless posts? There are a lot of threads to waste you time.
I thing you have a personal issue with my person and you have only tried to attack me.

I know exactly what's the Spanish VAT, I don't have to bother them with those questions but they seem too busy to sell me a 400€ upgrade.

Do they preffer to sell Tricasters?

Gus

pauland
03-26-2011, 09:36 AM
I have no idea why buying LW is such an issue or mystery.

Have a nice day Gus.

Gus
03-26-2011, 09:44 AM
I have no idea why buying LW is such an issue or mystery.

First: you can buy online trought newtek.com but... you don't
Second: you can buy trough your local resselers but... they don't answer

Gus

meshpig
03-26-2011, 09:51 AM
I also buy Adobe software. If I buy a downloaded version, I get to pay Irish VAT. If I buy a shipped box I pay UK VAT. I think it's where the service originates.

That's where it gets complicated. Ultimately the VAT/CT/GST is of the "taxable person" wherever they're paying the tax.

When you buy/use a service which attracts a value added/goods and services/consumption tax the money goes to the place where it's consumed so you aren't paying Irish VAT unless you pay tax in Ireland.

pauland
03-26-2011, 09:59 AM
That's where it gets complicated. Ultimately the VAT/CT/GST is of the "taxable person" wherever they're paying the tax.

When you buy/use a service which attracts a value added/goods and services/consumption tax the money goes to the place where it's consumed so you aren't paying Irish VAT unless you pay tax in Ireland.

I'm afraid that's not how Adobe do it. They apply differrent VAT rates according to whether you buy a download version or boxed version, and my address is the same either way. If I remember correctly they say it's because the download service is from Ireland, but the boxed product is shipped from the UK.

Anyway, I can't change it whatever it should be.

edit:

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/167/tn_16719.html#main_VAT__EMEA_

How much VAT/GST am I charged?

Adobe delivers downloads from Ireland, which means that electronic sales are charged the Ireland VAT rate for EU members. For other sales and services, the rate charged depends on the country from which the goods are shipped.

rsfd
03-26-2011, 10:56 AM
In fact I only need the license number but I would like to have the original dvd's plus the free rigging dvd.

Thankyou
Gus
in this case, you have two options

NON-EU <-> EU
you buy in the US (from a US software reseller), you don't pay US tax, but you pay shipping.
Later, after you have received your package, you will get a tax invoice from the courier (e.g. U.P.S., FedEx) about your spanish VAT for Software+Shipping (As the courier usually pays it in advance). (This way *can* sometimes be cheaper, but depends on $ <-> EUR)

EU <-> EU
- you buy at NT-Europe and pay French VAT, as this is where your shipment originates.
Afaik, you cannot ask for a tax refund in Spain since 2010, and it's easier for NT-Europe this way.
(If the yearly total sales from NT-Europe to Spain are more than 100.000 EUR, it would be possible to use the spanish VAT).

There are certain special "tricks", but with a difference that small between french and spanish VAT, I wouldn't think it's justifiable



Will I receive an email/fax/call from Newtek Europe (remember they are the resellers for Europe) asking to pay them France VAT before shipping my dvd's?


No. (but I don't think you will ever get DVD's).

edit:
(should have hit "reload" earlier). Pauland's info from #37 and the Adobe link should give you additional help

SBowie
03-26-2011, 11:54 AM
I have ship a whole Mac Classic Color Computer from USA to Spain for less than 40 bucks.What I could ship an item for (by shopping around for a practical method and rate), and what the charges are from the various online companies are two very different things.

SBowie
03-26-2011, 12:00 PM
@SBowie

Do you "exactly" know If I proceed to check out my 395€ LW10 upgrade through newtek.com (remember that it's totally factible to do that and they do not charge shipping costs nor VAT in the process and sure someone else from EU has done that)

Will I receive an email/fax/call from Newtek Europe (remember they are the resellers for Europe) asking to pay them France VAT before shipping my dvd's?I don't know the exact mechanics, but according to the information you yourself referred to, it won't matter. From information in your own post earlier in this thread, it appears that your transaction (through the website or not) will inevitably pass through NewTek Europe, and VAT will be added.


"We ship all products to Europe, Middle East and Africa through our Master Distributor, 3D Storm ... snip ... We ship all products to 3D Storm, as VAT must be charged, so you may purchase this from 3D Storm."

If you wish to know the precise details of how that is handled, here is a novel suggestion: "Please contact Marc Gaillard at 33-557-262-262 or via email at [email protected] for a quotation."

@rsfd: "you buy in the US (from a US software reseller), you don't pay US tax, but you pay shipping."

Often (if not always) NewTek's authorized reseller agreement limits sales to those within a dealers own zone.

meshpig
03-26-2011, 05:01 PM
Hurry up and buy the bloody thing:santa::newtek::)

wrench
03-26-2011, 05:19 PM
If you would like to see real injustice, why are Adobe products so much more expensive in Europe? It's not the VAT, Adobe has no control over that but they justify it by saying that the localisation costs demand it. :(

B

rsfd
03-27-2011, 04:36 AM
…@rsfd: "you buy in the US (from a US software reseller), you don't pay US tax, but you pay shipping."

Often (if not always) NewTek's authorized reseller agreement limits sales to those within a dealers own zone.
thanks for clearing this up, this is a restriction that I didn't knew.
I thought, buying LW in the U.S. would work the same way as ordering products in the U.S. from within Europe.


…but they justify it by saying that the localisation costs demand it. :(
and of course, Adobe implements all their handling and shipping costs in those foreign prices. I guess, that's why it becomes more and more "en vogue" to work on US-english hardware with US-english software.

Gus
03-28-2011, 02:39 AM
I ordered an item of video gear from a popular US online group last week. Shipping costs amounted to approximately $150, for a box that weighs less than 5 pounds.

What's the justification of a shipping cost like that?


I shudder to think what the price of shipping something from Texas to Spain might be.

I told you that for 30-40$ you can send a computer. Do you want another example, a hard disk plus other things from OWC to Spain, 15.99$ insured. (by air).

There's no justification for paying 150$ for a 5 pounds paquet

I would like to add that shipping costs (for a pair of dvd's) would not be the problen if they one day decided to ship overseas.

Gus

Gus
03-28-2011, 02:47 AM
If you wish to know the precise details of how that is handled, here is a novel suggestion: "Please contact Marc Gaillard at 33-557-262-262 or via email at [email protected] for a quotation."

I know exactly what I wrote.
Thankyou

Gus

Gus
03-28-2011, 02:50 AM
...and you got it personally from Irene King, who really is a very busy person, being Director of Worldwide Sales Operations (rather than in "NewTek Europe Sales").

Newtek site:

Sales Contact:
Europe - Irene King, Director Worldwide Sales Operations


Thankyou
Gus

SBowie
03-28-2011, 05:37 AM
Newtek site:
Sales Contact:
Europe - Irene King, Director Worldwide Sales Operations
And what information did she provide to you?

I don't like locking threads, even when they may have some critical remarks, since that can often be useful ... but this has gone well beyond tedious, past circular, and into silly. Enough.