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Mr Rid
03-17-2011, 06:01 PM
From 2005, but I thought some may be interested in seeing a demo I threw together recently to show a client-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UlbpwZ-cEQ

Was always strange to me how little 'wavers or NT seemed to notice the extensive contribution of LW for a feature film, that was even nominated for top honor at Cannes. I see one post in all the forums with one response(?). And I saw no mention at NT's Siggraph booth in '06, while Sin City shots were all over Fusion's demo and displays.

Alex Friderici did a great job on the exterior environs, using Sas for grass.
93750

Peter Profetto worked on this shot
93749

A couple working offsite handled this scene, but I dont recall their names,
93752

Phil Giles did bathroom stuff (HVs were used for the dust bunnys atop the cabinet)
93753

93754

Amurrell
03-17-2011, 08:11 PM
I was wondering the same thing, about many projects. Why is it that LW never gets any props for stuff it is used in? I think that this is one of the many reasons why its name isn't that strong. I mean seriously, it's used a lot. What gives?

MAUROCOR
03-17-2011, 08:43 PM
Congratulation! Wonderfull work!
One of my favorite movies ever!
:thumbsup:

borkus
03-17-2011, 08:48 PM
Congrats Mr. Rid on some outstanding work!!! That is a demo reel many of us would kill for... But, anyway. I loved that movie and wish that Lightwave would get more mention because of it's use in it.

caesar
03-17-2011, 08:59 PM
That's a opportunity NT cant lose...promote outstand work made with LW

Matt
03-17-2011, 09:08 PM
As always, top work Mr.Rid!

Hopper
03-17-2011, 11:06 PM
One of my favorite movies. I always loved that style. :thumbsup: Fantastic work done on that piece.

Mitja
03-18-2011, 01:30 AM
After 6 years we discover that Lightwave was used??! That's for sure a great marketing...
Great work, indeed!

wrench
03-18-2011, 02:54 AM
I think part of the problem was that it wasn't made clear by CafeFX what LightWave was used for?

B

Mr Rid
03-18-2011, 04:55 AM
After 6 years we discover that Lightwave was used??!
LW was used for nearly every shot in the middle story/third of the movie... I dont recall the count now, but for hundreds of shots.


I think part of the problem was that it wasn't made clear by CafeFX what LightWave was used for?

B

NT knew, but it's as if they didnt approve much. I've wondered if there was a moral objection lurking. There were three artists who had personal issues about working on the subject.

But NT usually had no idea about what the various LW houses I've worked for were up to. Seems to me, they ought to be in better contact with production clients and asking, 'Hey, how can we help?' And whenever we did have contact about a project there was always very little to no support or interest. I've never understood what NT's deal is.

safetyman
03-18-2011, 05:08 AM
Totally agree with you Mr. Rid. You guys do amazing work and it should be "put out there" -- all the wonderful things that LW can accomplish. These days, NT can't afford to pick and choose which projects they highlight.

WilliamVaughan
03-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Killer reel.

I love that LW was involve din such a killer movie!

OnlineRender
03-18-2011, 11:28 AM
freakin love that film ............... I AM NOT WORTHY !

bazsa73
03-18-2011, 11:56 AM
Nicely done, congratulations!

Mruk
03-22-2011, 01:45 PM
LW7.5, amazing. I am not enough brave even to hit F9 in this version : )

Cageman
03-22-2011, 02:18 PM
But NT usually had no idea about what the various LW houses I've worked for were up to. Seems to me, they ought to be in better contact with production clients and asking, 'Hey, how can we help?' And whenever we did have contact about a project there was always very little to no support or interest. I've never understood what NT's deal is.

Sad to hear that... I do hope that with Rob on the dev-team, more communication between clients and devs will happen.

It seems to me that there are studios that recieve very direct support, but they are a select few I guess.

digitaldoc
03-22-2011, 02:59 PM
Great stuff! Congrats and thanks for sharing.

Lightwolf
03-22-2011, 03:09 PM
But NT usually had no idea about what the various LW houses I've worked for were up to.
I know the problem. We do tend to be in close contact with many of our customers - and we hardly ever know what they're working on.
We usually find out by accident. Either that or when actually coming to a physical visit (which is usually not an option for third parties).

Cheers,
Mike

nickdigital
03-22-2011, 04:10 PM
From my experience on the studio side, it requires that someone reaches out to NewTek to say "Hey, look at what we're doing." Most, if not all, studios don't have the time or people to do that PR run around stuff. You'll also probably run into legal/press issues.

[edit]
And just so I'm not hijacking this thread...excellent work on Sin City. :thumbsup:

COBRASoft
03-22-2011, 04:30 PM
I knew Sin City was done with a lot of LW work. Don't remember how I knew. But it remains one of my fav movies and the fx is superb. Well done!

zapper1998
03-23-2011, 04:17 PM
Awesome Mr.Rid

:)

Cageman
03-24-2011, 06:20 AM
I knew Sin City was done with a lot of LW work. Don't remember how I knew. But it remains one of my fav movies and the fx is superb. Well done!

NT did have a pretty good production profile about Sin City. Not sure where to find it nowdays though.

MDSPECIFIC
03-24-2011, 04:21 PM
Good to remember.
Nice work!

Oedo 808
03-26-2011, 01:23 PM
Some very nice work there indeed, thanks for posting it.

Mr Rid
03-26-2011, 08:21 PM
Sin City seems to be the most extensive use of LW in a feature (550 photoreal shots) but I didnt see it mentioned at all at the Siggraph. NT should have had a Sin City related ad in the Cinefex issue, where SoftImage, Eyeon, and even Glu3d had ads. I wonder if vendors have to pay for the privilege of being mentioned in articles(?), but LW is not mentioned in the CafeFX segment of Cinefex. Orphanage's segment only mentions their use of Houdini for snow. Its odd that The Making of Sin City, both the book and dvd segment, dont say anything about the vast use of CG in the film(?!).

I saw the same lack of interest from LW magazines as with NT over the years. When I was at UFO, they were turning out some really cool photoreal stuff for the time (Velocity Trap had the most convincing CG spaceships I'd ever seen). I contacted all the LW mags back then and sent reels (also to NT)... nothing. Then the next issue would feature some goofy, plastic looking thing I never understood why anyone would want to represent LW.

Well into the Sin City FX schedule, no one had quite pinned down the look for SinCity, particulalry how far to go with the extreme black & white levels exemplified in the novels. We mostly had rainy night exteriors, which were a challenge to decide on the look of. The bathroom interior was one of our first shots rendered, and the director took a frame and processed it heavily in PShop as an example, where he pushed the levels to an extreme that was really too harsh to consider subjecting audience eyeballs to for two hours, and it squashed a lot of detail. We kept tweaking for months. It wasnt until Alex Frederici came on in mid project and did an exterior shot where the car jumps over the hill, and pre-comped it, and we all went, 'Thats it!' The Fusion supervisors came up with a definitive color curves tool for 'Sin City look' that compers could drop into shots. They also made a Fusion flow that loaded all the shots so they could be compared side by side to match levels. At that point, I was told that Rodriguez had sent some of our shots as examples for another house to match. Am sure each house put in extra effort, worried about looking as good as the other two houses.

A particular challenge was rain which drenched most of the shots in the Big Fat Kill segment. Live rain elements were too limited in how they could be used, as we needed depth, and spatters off actors and plate elements. Voxels were used for any shots with a significant camera move, while Fusion mapped particles were used for most shots.

We looked at old noir films for lighting reference. Eraserhead was a particular inspiration for me that I brought in one night to screen. It was the closest to Sin City's fantastic use of shadow.

kosmodave
03-27-2011, 03:16 AM
Fantastic quality work Mr Rid, something to strive for and a source of inspiration for sure. And Newtek / Rob, talk to this man as this kind of work really shows what Lightwave is really capable of.

Dave

abdelkarim
03-27-2011, 09:41 AM
WOw no coment. i love lightwave and William Vaughen :D

and ofcourse newtek to.

abdelkarim
03-27-2011, 09:45 AM
but how he did light trough window and it cast on her back ??? in 3rd SHot. its light in lw 3d or its real ??? its real why we cant see in 3rd shot in back green screen ?!?

Mr Rid
03-27-2011, 10:34 AM
but how he did light trough window and it cast on her back ??? in 3rd SHot. its light in lw 3d or its real ??? its real why we cant see in 3rd shot in back green screen ?!?

I think you are referring to the first shot. The blinds' shadows casting on the girl on the floor were added in comp. If the actress had been moving much, I probably would have matchmoved a figure to her movement to derive a shadow element for comp.

In the second shot of Clive Owen walking thru the hallway, the shadows he casts on the CG set came from a matchmoved figure. I matchmoved figures in a few other shots to have shadows of the actors to appear to cast on CG environment. Matchmoving is a fave trick- http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=809819

caesar
03-27-2011, 06:45 PM
Definitely it's a problem NT still didn't addressed: studios support and advertising.

realgray
03-29-2011, 04:03 PM
You da man Mr. Rid.

Nangleator
03-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Thank you for your work, Mr. Rid.

Hard to believe how much was added in CG. The actors must have felt like they were back in high school doing scenes on a blank stage.

GraphXs
03-31-2011, 12:46 PM
I thought NT had a clip from Sin City on a reel from Siggraph? Don't rember if that is true, but I thought I saw it, and also new back then that LW did play a roll in Sin City.

Anyhoo Great Work!

Mr Rid
03-31-2011, 04:39 PM
Thank you for your work, Mr. Rid.

Hard to believe how much was added in CG. The actors must have felt like they were back in high school doing scenes on a blank stage.

I once wrote an email to the Online Critics Society, questioning why they awarded Sin City for 'best cinematography.' I received a couple of rather defensive emails from member critics. But after sending a long explanation, one of them grudgingly admitted it was an errant award. Someone from UCLA news also interviewed me about it. Its funny how some people knew it was a digital backlot movie, but at the same time they didn't really know what they were looking at. It was astonishing to me last year when a 70% digital movie took the Oscar for best cinematography, and no one batted an eye. Again, I think many people, including voting DPs didnt fully realize what they were looking at in Avatar, and it seemed like a case of the Emperors New Clothes.

Lightwolf
03-31-2011, 04:44 PM
Again, I think many people, including voting DPs didnt fully realize what they were looking at in Avatar, and it seemed like a case of the Emperors New Clothes.
Considering that the original Tron wasn't even nominated for best VFX back in the days because the academy thought it was cheating - I'd take it with a grain of salt (actually, a bit more than that ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

BlueApple
03-31-2011, 06:48 PM
Great work, Mr. Rid. Sin City has been one of the rare comics translated to film successfully. It was faithful to the source material, and nicely stylized without looking juvenile. Looking at your breakdowns I was surprised and impressed to discover how much was shot and how much was CG.

It makes sense you'd want to show it off, and it would make sense for NT to want to show it off as well.

Mr Rid
04-01-2011, 12:16 AM
Considering that the original Tron wasn't even nominated for best VFX back in the days because the academy thought it was cheating - I'd take it with a grain of salt (actually, a bit more than that ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

Not sure how you mean 'grain of salt' here.

But my point is that CG artists may not mind having their work confused with practical cinematography, but cinematographers sure as hell do. I dont see how Avatar could have been nominated unless a majority of voting DPs didnt fully realize the extent of the CG, and were confusing it with the practical (like the Online Critics Soc did for Sin City). Maybe I am missing something, but I didn't see the remaining 30% of practical Avatar as all that remarkable. And I read that the DP had no involvement in the extensive mocap shoots or CG, sooo... what/who were Academy DPs recognizing exactly? I find it hard to believe no DPs said a word. Its similar to the current controversy (although not to the same degree) over the face replacement of Portman in the Black Swan dance scenes, but where many are now decrying an at least partially nude Empress. :)

allabulle
04-01-2011, 01:02 AM
Not sure how you mean 'grain of salt' here. But my point is that CG artists may not mind having their work confused with practical cinematography, but cinematographers sure as hell do. I dont see how Avatar could have been nominated unless a majority of voting DPs didnt fully realize the extent of the CG, and were confusing it with the practical. I didn't see the remaining 30% of practical Avatar as all that remarkable. And I read that the DP had no involvement in the extensive mocap shoots or CG, sooo... what/who were Academy DPs recognizing exactly? I find it hard to believe no DPs said a word. Its similar to the current controversy (although not to the same degree) over the face replacement of Portman in the Black Swan dance scenes, but where many are now decrying an at least partially nude Empress. :)

:)

lardbros
04-01-2011, 05:49 AM
Knew there was plenty of Lightwave in Sin City... but would like to take this moment to congratulate you for the work... it's some of the most superb and different looking films I've seen, and it works so well!! That Sasquatch grass is great too... never knew it was Lightwave too!


As for Newtek not really recognising work done by Lightwave, it's always been a bit like this I'm afraid. Don't know why, when the rest of the 3d apps industry scream and shout about the work done, it makes people wonder what Lightwave is ever used for.

We have some occasions where coverage is boosted a little bit on the Newtek website, but it always lulls after a month or two... Shame!

Lightwolf
04-01-2011, 06:14 AM
Not sure how you mean 'grain of salt' here.

I wouldn't take it to seriously, that's how.

Cheers,
Mike

art
04-01-2011, 07:10 AM
Sin City is one of my favorite movies. I knew/heard that Lightwave was used for production but didn't realize the extent. Great work! Thanks for the info.

Mr Rid
04-01-2011, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't take it to seriously, that's how.

Cheers,
Mike

Well, I do take industry arrogance, and major credit shamming without salt. But I guess that's just me, or anyone who may wind up on the short end of it.

Dexter2999
04-01-2011, 01:09 PM
Well, I do take industry arrogance, and major credit shamming without salt. But I guess that's just me, or anyone who may wind up on the short end of it.

It's just another facet of the arrogance where the above the line steps on those below the line. They take the money. They take the glory.

The Oscars are just a popularity contest anyway.

stevenpalomino
04-09-2011, 12:23 AM
Not to be a thread hijacker but I was a part of a studio here in KC for a while that did a lot of cg work for the series fringe. Lots of shots. And all in lightwave;)

Afalk
04-10-2011, 06:03 AM
Fristly -- OUTSTANDING work on Sin City! & Great breakdowns on the shots - the sas grass was awesome!

@Steve -->> Send a heads up to newtek about LW in Fringe -- we can always use the exposure and Fringe has some very nice work in it!~

lardbros
04-10-2011, 05:47 PM
Slightly disappointed that the latest 3d World doesn't mention Lightwave for the Dead Island trailer... i know the work was done by a different studio, but a shame none-the-less,

Cageman
04-10-2011, 05:51 PM
Slightly disappointed that the latest 3d World doesn't mention Lightwave for the Dead Island trailer... i know the work was done by a different studio, but a shame none-the-less,

Yeah... all the main characters were indeed modeled in LW.

Oh well...

bearfoot
04-20-2011, 01:47 AM
Yeah... all the main characters were indeed modeled in LW.

Oh well...

actually the guys at ten24 did the character models for deadisland.. i think they were mainly Zbrush and 3d scans but i know for sure those guys use LW for a lot of their work just not sure how much for this project specifically..

link http://www.ten24.info/index.php/dead-island/

cheers

Cageman
04-20-2011, 04:31 PM
actually the guys at ten24 did the character models for deadisland.. i think they were mainly Zbrush and 3d scans but i know for sure those guys use LW for a lot of their work just not sure how much for this project specifically..

link http://www.ten24.info/index.php/dead-island/

cheers

Some more info here in the first post

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117724

:)