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mxdirector
03-16-2011, 07:17 PM
I am keen on getting lightwave, I have the trail version as of now, but have some issues that i would like to discuss.

As I start getting more work I need more then a educational license, and I need a proper application that I can use a expand my range of skills (animation, dynamics..etc). Lightwave (at it's current price) seems like a perfect solution. If it wasn't so werid and lacked some basic functions, Then I would buy it right now. But why, why on earth do all the primary keys seem to be attached to opening some basic editors?????????? Why on earth can't you view modeller while actually editing the keys. In this day and age, double clicking on an edge means you select an edge loop, being a rebellous program and going against the curve, isn't helping. It baffles me, and these issues of being stunned at the design choices stun me. Basic maths, alt+mouse to move the camera=2 keys. alt+shift+mouse to move the camera= 3 keys. not hard to work out that.

I did have a list of issues with lightwave to bring up, But in all honestly what's the point of discussing what rendeing possibilties there are, and the dynamics when it's painfully clear that I can't even manage to use the bloody thing. Was it really so hard to have some maya, 3ds, modo, presets so people could start modelling instead of wrestling with a program that seems to be designed by a monkey on crack.

So I get that alot of people are lightwave users, and you probably get the problems with it. I do apologise for ranting. So if there is no fix, I'll be on my way otherwise I would love to get involved in lightwave.

Matt
03-16-2011, 08:34 PM
But why, why on earth do all the primary keys seem to be attached to opening some basic editors?

Calling up those editors is something that users do often, hence why they are the defaults, but you can change them to do whatever you like.


Why on earth can't you view modeller while actually editing the keys

Do you mean why you can't _use_ Modeler with the Key Shortcut window open? It's a modal window, which means it expects you to make the changes then close it.

It's just always been that way, unless you meant something else?


In this day and age, double clicking on an edge means you select an edge loop

What you need to realise is that LightWave is a program with a long history to it, it's not brand new, and double-clicks were never factored into the program back when it was designed. Which is why the CORE project was started.

That said, assigning select loop to a shortcut key goes some way to making it fast to use.


Basic maths, alt+mouse to move the camera=2 keys. alt+shift+mouse to move the camera= 3 keys. not hard to work out that.

If you mean in Modeler, to move the view (it's not a camera, that's in Layout) it's Alt + LMB in the elevational views, and yes, in the perspective view it's Alt + Shift + LMB, whereas Alt + LMB is for rotation. I imagine this is because when manipulating the views Modeler was designed to use the same key, but have it work for the most common thing you want to do in that view - pan in elevational views, rotate in perspective view.

I agree it's not very standardised, but in reality, it's one of those strange LightWave concepts that actually makes it fast to use (once you know about it).

It actually makes much more sense when you make the perspective view have an 'independent center' to the other views.

Press 'd' to bring up the Display Options, go to the 'Viewport' tab. Next click on the 'TopR' button to edit the 'Top Right' viewport (which by default is the perspective viewport in quad view) and click on the 'Independant Center' checkbox.

Now when you ALT + LMB in the elevational views the perspective view will stay where it is.

I can see why it feels silly, but when you get used to it, you'll fly!

(Note to self: Think this should be the default actually).


Was it really so hard to have some maya, 3ds, modo, presets so people could start modelling instead of wrestling with a program that seems to be designed by a monkey on crack.

Well, LightWave came before most of those apps, so they have the benefit of hindsight, while LightWave was breaking new ground back in the day when it was written.

I do agree that it should be made possible to edit the shortcuts for things like navigation, but they were hard coded in by that very same "monkey on crack" who now writes modo!

Dennik
03-16-2011, 08:42 PM
Your post inspired me to post this image.
http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg
Sorry for being too impulsive.

mxdirector
03-16-2011, 09:02 PM
Thank you Matt, and thank you Dennik for that, you saw through my disguise.

I assume My frustration came through, I assure you I want lightwave , but there are some teething problems I am having. You mentioned lightwave core, I googled and found some info on it, but from what i can see it seems to be a subscription program. Is there anymore information then this http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/

Sensei
03-16-2011, 09:10 PM
LightWave is >10 years ago older than mentioned by you applications. Think who should adopt- older to younger, or younger to older? Who was first on earth?! Do these applications have such presets with "LightWave compatible settings"??

mxdirector
03-16-2011, 09:14 PM
LightWave is >10 years ago older than mentioned by you applications. Think who should adopt- older to younger, or younger to older? Who was first on earth?! Do these applications have such presets with "LightWave compatible settings"??
Well lightwave is hardly the only party guilty of this.
These tools are there for us, ideally there should be no learning curve (obviously that's near impossible). Meaning that all applications should allow you to work in a manner which suits you best. All applications should do this, not just lightwave.

Snosrap
03-16-2011, 09:22 PM
LightWave is >10 years ago older than mentioned by you applications. Think who should adopt- older to younger, or younger to older? Who was first on earth?! Do these applications have such presets with "LightWave compatible settings"??Yeah, good point Sensei. modo's viewport navigation actually works identically to LW out of the box. I remember when it was first released and people were complaining about it and Brad basically pleaded with everyone to keep at it and they would eventually see how good it was. I have to agree, LW and modo's viewport navigation are absolutely brillant! But again I started early with LW many years ago while previously using Imagine and Caligari24 on the Amiga. :D

accom
03-17-2011, 02:51 AM
It's funny how this kind of ranting can go in other directions... I learned LW in a studio years ago and when i started my own business I couldn't afford LW right from the start, so I tried learning Blender... After two weeks of tutorial work I was still absolutely frustrated with it, and when I converted the time spent with Blender (and still not beeing able to work with it "normally"), i figured that by that time my LW license could allready be paid for. :) So I just bought it.

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 07:53 AM
It's funny how this kind of ranting can go in other directions... I learned LW in a studio years ago and when i started my own business I couldn't afford LW right from the start, so I tried learning Blender... After two weeks of tutorial work I was still absolutely frustrated with it, and when I converted the time spent with Blender (and still not beeing able to work with it "normally"), i figured that by that time my LW license could allready be paid for. :) So I just bought it.
I am in the same boat really. I tried blender, and wow, that is a mess. There's a reason why it's free. A full 3d package is something I am definitely looking for.
If lightwave core was released, I would probably buy lightwave.

jeric_synergy
03-17-2011, 10:01 AM
You've got it all backwards: MAYA should change their navigation.

Makes just as much sense. MAYA centric rants are so much fun.

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 11:56 AM
So this lightwave core. I can't find it anywhere. it seems the subscription service is for 9.6. but all other links seem to imply that it is part of lightwave 10 (which would make sense)

Where is it. All I see in the folder is a file called core.dll. am I meant to do somethign with that?

Or do I need to buy lightwave core, if so where?

nickdigital
03-17-2011, 12:01 PM
If you're a new user you'd be buying LW10 which includes the LW classic version of 10 plus Core. It's a bit confusing with the name but LightWave 10 is both classic and Core. Core is still in development.

Whereas LightWave 9 is just classic LightWave.

Also with 10 you get access to a special part of the forum where you get access to beta builds and are able to discuss the development of LW.

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 12:19 PM
Hiya nickdigital.
I only have the trial version. So how do I actually open core?

nickdigital
03-17-2011, 12:21 PM
There is no trial version of Core. The program is still in development so playing with a trial version wouldn't do you or the company any good.

However if you've bought LW10 then you could play with the beta.

toddd240
03-17-2011, 01:21 PM
An educational version can be purchased for $195.

That can be upgraded for $495 to full lightwave 10 and get you into the hardcore community. You will receive CORE when it is released and your upgrades for the next five years will be at a fixed price.

I did this and it was worth it.

I was wavering between Modo and Lightwave, and I went with lightwave.

Matt
03-17-2011, 01:44 PM
Thank you Matt, and thank you Dennik for that, you saw through my disguise.

I assume My frustration came through, I assure you I want lightwave , but there are some teething problems I am having.

As with all apps, there is a learning curve. There are some things in LightWave that maybe odd, some are actually its strength, others, are just odd!

It does make me believe even more we need more and better video tutorials showing the very basics of getting into LightWave, to avoid people running into those "Huh" moments.

wrench
03-17-2011, 02:36 PM
Even better if some of those "huh!" moments were removed rather than just educating people about them, like a right click menu of options on an Envelope button for instance?

B

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 03:12 PM
An educational version can be purchased for $195.

That can be upgraded for $495 to full lightwave 10 and get you into the hardcore community. You will receive CORE when it is released and your upgrades for the next five years will be at a fixed price.

I did this and it was worth it.

I was wavering between Modo and Lightwave, and I went with lightwave.

I may very well do that. I like lightwave, there's just alot of baffling issues with it.
I can't find much info on lightwave core at all, a few videos on youtube and some vague information.
Honestly I just want to see it in action. Because your method really sounds like a great way to go, and what value for money.

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 04:57 PM
As with all apps, there is a learning curve. There are some things in LightWave that maybe odd, some are actually its strength, others, are just odd!

It does make me believe even more we need more and better video tutorials showing the very basics of getting into LightWave, to avoid people running into those "Huh" moments.
Absolutely mate. I search endlessly and couldn't come up with any resources for lightwave. The sad thing is there is no digital tutors or lightwave resources. those guys really make the best most engaging content, and there is none for lightwave. A really shame.

The thing that really gets up my nose about all this, is I am genuinely interested in lightwave, the thing keeping me from biting is lightwave not showing core. I once again find myself baffled as to why? Why wouldn't you want to show people the one thing that is apparently easy and approachable.

JonW
03-17-2011, 06:37 PM
Started with LW6.5 & Studio Max, I have still only barely scratched the surface of what LW is capable of producing, & gave up on Max.

No software, OS, camera, car, unit or house will ever have all itís issues resolved. eg, I use Macs & PC because each have their advantages & disadvantages.

For me LW has a good price point (now a fraction of the price of my original purchase). A reasonable number of tutorials, obviously more would be better, but the amazing support on these forums has helped numerous times.

Iíve got Core but havenít looked at it yet as Iím happy to concentrate on LW9.6/10 at this point in time & it gets my work out quickly & efficiently.

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 08:00 PM
Hiya JonW.

As of now I will not be buying lightwave. For me core is the only thing keeping me on the fence. So it's a shame you aren't using it so that you could tell me about it.

Matt
03-17-2011, 08:05 PM
Even better if some of those "huh!" moments were removed rather than just educating people about them, like a right click menu of options on an Envelope button for instance?

B

There will always be "huh" moments in software as complex as a LightWave. Show me one that has none!


the thing keeping me from biting is lightwave not showing core. I once again find myself baffled as to why? Why wouldn't you want to show people the one thing that is apparently easy and approachable.

It's not ready for prime time yet, that's why info is limited, it's still in development.

Snosrap
03-17-2011, 08:42 PM
Hiya JonW.

As of now I will not be buying lightwave. For me core is the only thing keeping me on the fence. So it's a shame you aren't using it so that you could tell me about it.

Sorry, NT has asked us not to say anything about Core. There are some videos about Core on NT's site that they showed at SIGGRAPH, so you might want to check those out. All I can say is use the demos of the various apps you are interested in and hopefully something will click with you. The problem with 3D apps is that they are just so deep and its real hard to give them test drives without just getting in there and learning the app. I bought a non-linear video editor (Vegas) a few years ago after I downloaded demos from every single provider. The thing is, they all pretty much work the same so it was easy to try them all and get a good feel for each. Doing the same with 3d apps would be really difficult IMO.

nickdigital
03-17-2011, 09:15 PM
Absolutely mate. I search endlessly and couldn't come up with any resources for lightwave. The sad thing is there is no digital tutors or lightwave resources. those guys really make the best most engaging content, and there is none for lightwave. A really shame.


If you want LW resources here's a quick list:

www.liberty3d.com
http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Main_Menu.htm
www.simplylightwave.com
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77002

There are also a lot of good tutorials inside this forum.

Cageman has a good series:
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116845&highlight=cageman+tutorials

This forum is also very helpful so when in doubt you could ask here.



The thing that really gets up my nose about all this, is I am genuinely interested in lightwave, the thing keeping me from biting is lightwave not showing core. I once again find myself baffled as to why? Why wouldn't you want to show people the one thing that is apparently easy and approachable.

Well if you're interested in LW think of Core as a bonus. LW10 has a lot in it and from what I gather you're a newbie. So classic LW will certainly keep you busy and entertained for awhile. :)

mxdirector
03-17-2011, 09:23 PM
Sorry, NT has asked us not to say anything about Core. There are some videos about Core on NT's site that they showed at SIGGRAPH, so you might want to check those out. All I can say is use the demos of the various apps you are interested in and hopefully something will click with you. The problem with 3D apps is that they are just so deep and its real hard to give them test drives without just getting in there and learning the app. I bought a non-linear video editor (Vegas) a few years ago after I downloaded demos from every single provider. The thing is, they all pretty much work the same so it was easy to try them all and get a good feel for each. Doing the same with 3d apps would be really difficult IMO.
I disagree. Although it appears to be the case, I believe it is something we have simply grown accustomed too, but something that doesn't necessarily have to be true.
Take silo, it is praised as a simple and efficient modeller. There is no reason why those same ideas and controls couldn't be applied to maya. Infact the theory behind lightwave's interface is fantastic and a testament to how simple things could really be.

But I digress. Lightwave core, so it is a mystery. and the only way I can see it is by buying lightwave?


NT has asked us not to say anything about Core.
Well Matt betrayed you and all of NT by leaking this information to me :P
Does this very conversation not convey how absurd this all is?
So a customer wants to buy lightwave because of core (because it apparently solves my issues, I wouldn't know because I haven't actually used it). Yet no one can talk about core.

This is like a sales man refusing to talk about HD on a new line of televisions. This is just silly.

Matt
03-17-2011, 09:42 PM
This is like a sales man refusing to talk about HD on a new line of televisions. This is just silly.

The reason info is thin is as I said because it's still in development, and things might change along the way.

Showing things _too_ early only causes problems.

Basically, we're not ready to show the world everything yet, there is nothing unusual or silly about this at all.

Matt
03-17-2011, 09:47 PM
Also, you mentioned there are no resources for LightWave, this is very much incorrect!

Video training:

Official training videos from NewTek
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/training.php

Some more intermediate training by me!
http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_video_tutorials.html

Some free, some paid (but inexpensive) from third party:
http://www.simplylightwave.com/
http://liberty3d.com/

Non-video training / guides:

Essential guides to LightWave Radiosity and Antialising:
http://www.except.nl/lightwave/RadiosityGuide96/index.htm
http://www.except.nl/lightwave/aa/index.htm

Huge link collection of available training:
http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/

Resources for scripts / plugins (usually free, and some absolutely essential):

Database of available plugins:
http://www.lwplugindb.com/

Community written:
http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/main_en.htm
http://www.artssphere.com
http://www.artstorm.net/
http://mentalfish.com/

The best colour picker plugin for LightWave, period
http://www.joviancolorpicker.com/

My own scripts!
http://www.pixsim.co.uk/lightwave_lscripts.html

Materials / shaders:

Tons of free preset materials, watch the video tutorials to know where to put stuff.
http://www.presetcentral.com/

Snosrap
03-17-2011, 10:22 PM
Well Matt betrayed you and all of NT by leaking this information to me :P
He works for NT so he can say whatever he pleases. :D

Snosrap
03-17-2011, 10:26 PM
I disagree. Although it appears to be the case, I believe it is something we have simply grown accustomed too, but something that doesn't necessarily have to be true.
Take silo, it is praised as a simple and efficient modeller. There is no reason why those same ideas and controls couldn't be applied to maya. Every developer thinks they have the better mouse trap. People are different - apps are different. Its a good thing.

mxdirector
03-18-2011, 08:14 AM
Well, I have decided to not get lightwave. I'm putting it off until I have seen core.
Thank you for all your help.

Matt
03-18-2011, 11:18 PM
Thanks for your interest.