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JonW
03-15-2011, 07:21 PM
Itís very sad to see the depth of tragedy in Japan. In the very early 1980ís I spent 3 weeks travelling from the north of Japan through to the south & enjoyed every minute. Including the privilege of seeing some of the cherry blossom season. Hopefully I will get to Japan again one day.

My very best wishes for everyone trying to cope with these extremely difficult times, おめでとう

Dexter2999
03-15-2011, 08:07 PM
I'm planning a trip for October. No Cherry blossoms for me.

Kinda worried about some of Japanese board members. I know they are having food and gas shortages like we do with Hurricanes here in FL. But many are without power in the winter there with the many reactor shut downs.

I've donated a little to charities to try to help but the stories I am reading don't make me feel better about it. Seems uncertain what role charities will play if and when they get in action.

Horrible thing. And the trash that comes of people's mouths at a time like this can be appalling.

cgisoul
03-15-2011, 09:38 PM
I take my hat off and salute to those 50 brave men, who chose to stay behind for the last efforts in preventing total caos:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42101198/?gt1=43001

Intuition
03-15-2011, 09:43 PM
Sorry if this gets a little too political for some but...

I must point out how nice it is that our great and formidable enemies from WW2 have become our most beloved friends.

I get a little misty eyed thinking that some 66 years later the USA is now over there trying to help our Japanese friends.

I am really happy that we can greet this crisis in these times where everyone seems to want to help.

Hope it all works out... and I hope other nuclear facilities around the world are being looked at in light of this disaster.

pat-lek
03-16-2011, 01:53 AM
It' s hard to say something.

All my sympathy for the Japaneses.

OnlineRender
03-16-2011, 02:17 AM
I take my hat off and salute to those 50 brave men, who chose to stay behind for the last efforts in preventing total caos:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42101198/?gt1=43001

I think they have bailed now , to dangerous

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-All-Workers-Evacuated-From-Fukushima-In-Japan-Nuclear-Plant-After-Surge-In-Radiation/Article/201103315953135?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header _0&lid=ARTICLE_15953135_Video%3A_All_Workers_Evacuate d_From_Fukushima_In_Japan_Nuclear_Plant_After_Surg e_In_Radiation_

Emergency workers have been withdrawn from the tsunami-hit Fukushima 1 nuclear power plant in Japan after officials warned of a surge in radiation.

Aquarian
03-16-2011, 02:24 PM
The japanese people have my deepest sympathies for the tragedy they are going through and my deepest admiration for how they behave in a time of crisis. A lesson to be learned by others clearly.....
http://i.imgur.com/wbiJh.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/16k58vs.jpg

My heart and prayers are with Japan and everyone affected by this disaster and I'm sure that the good citizens of the world will help them to rebuild. I can't believe the comments from those links Veehoy! It's hard to believe how hateful people can be towards others in crisis.

I hope that this will entice more nuclear-energy safeguards to be put in place or perhaps other methods of producing energy will be investigated since a disaster like this could happen along our own pacific coastline.

eracer
03-16-2011, 02:54 PM
i'm planning a trip for october. No cherry blossoms for me.

Kinda worried about some of japanese board members. I know they are having food and gas shortages like we do with hurricanes here in fl. But many are without power in the winter there with the many reactor shut downs.

I've donated a little to charities to try to help but the stories i am reading don't make me feel better about it. Seems uncertain what role charities will play if and when they get in action.

Horrible thing. And the trash that comes of people's mouths at a time like this can be appalling.

amen

geothefaust
03-16-2011, 03:08 PM
http://i.imgur.com/wbiJh.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/16k58vs.jpg

I saw that the other day, it is one of the most F'd up things.


Bunch of heartless ignorant morons. Severely uneducated comments.



If anyone hasn't done so yet, you can donate to the Red Cross. They are providing real support and not books of fiction or propaganda.

philippe
03-16-2011, 03:41 PM
http://i.imgur.com/wbiJh.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/16k58vs.jpg

Unbelievable :mad:

walfridson
03-16-2011, 04:45 PM
the a-bombs wasnt enough it seams...

Cageman
03-16-2011, 04:47 PM
The japanese people have my deepest sympathies for the tragedy they are going through and my deepest admiration for how they behave in a time of crisis. A lesson to be learned by others clearly.....
http://i.imgur.com/wbiJh.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/16k58vs.jpg

wtf?

If the Tsunami is Karma for Pearl Harbor, what was the two Nuclear Bombs droped at Nagasaki and Hiroshima then?

If this is Karma, I do wonder if America will actually exist in... 2 years (based on Nagasaki and Hiroshima + all other things that have happened since WW2).

Thankfully though, most Americans are not like what is shown in those two links (at least I hope so, and belive so).

Traveler
03-16-2011, 04:52 PM
Those comments are just plain disgusting. I really wish I hadn't opened those links :(

COBRASoft
03-16-2011, 04:59 PM
My deepest sympathy to ANY civilian who's struck in such disasters. Nobody deserves this, nowhere in the world.

About those 2 pictures with comments. Those people should think once what happened here in western-europe, more specific flanders fields in the World Wars... They should think about the horrors done in Vietnam, Iraq, ... Shame on you for even thinking this!

JeffrySG
03-16-2011, 05:44 PM
I was out there a few years ago in Tokyo visiting a good friend who is still living there. Thankfully he's ok but it's just been really hard being there with everything going on. He says they've been having about two aftershocks every day which is still kind of scary. So much damage everywhere. My heart goes out to the entire country and can only wish them a speedy recovery.

Lightwolf
03-16-2011, 06:57 PM
All our sympathy and good wishes for anybody suffering from the ill effects in Japan at the moment.
And certainly the very best wishes for the next couple of years as well since it is certainly going to take some time to recover (regardless of the result of the nuclear accident).
I have to say that I really admit how well the people of Japan are coping with the situation so far.

I won't even comment on the images. However it is certainly good to see that even the more adverse neighbours are sending help over as well as Japan accepting it.

moussepipi2000
03-16-2011, 08:38 PM
shame to the image link. i just want to go back to the normal life and celebrate cherry blossom with friend and laugh a lot. i believe in all the technician there. pray for it. and amen to the people in tohoku region.

Lamont
03-16-2011, 08:42 PM
He says they've been having about two aftershocks every day which is still kind of scary.The ground has not stopped shaking up here. I think we're at the 300+ mark for aftershocks. Dozens of 5~ 6.0's.

As for the plant, they are doing staff rotations to reduce exposure.

If you're going to donate $$, donate to an organization that will use it in other places besides here. Although the images are heart-wrenching, everything will be fine. There is food and supplies, the problem is the transportation/power infrastructure is damaged, which makes getting things around a pain. They have to go up the West Coast around Aomori then back down to get to us. No freight trains have been through here since.

Lamont
03-16-2011, 08:45 PM
Oh and JonW: おめでとう = congratulations. ;)

JonW
03-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Oh and JonW: おめでとう = congratulations. ;)

Years ago I could write a few words. But I cheated here!

The only earthquake I was in was our Newcastle earthquake decades ago. I was sitting at my desk in Sydney & everything moved sideways 10cm, I looked out into the warehouse & everything was shaking. That was enough for me!

probiner
03-16-2011, 09:46 PM
These things break hearts. Also show the strength that ppl have underneath. Best wishes to our long dated friends on the other side of the globe.

Here in Portugal we are not so used to these massive destruction events in the last century, just hope we can be as strong as japaneses, since apparently at any moment we can have a event like that here, again, due to proximity of continental plates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Lamont
03-16-2011, 09:53 PM
Most you can do is not panic and know what to do during and after.

Bona
03-17-2011, 12:39 AM
Just back form Tokyo yesterday, I was about to check in at west Shinjuku when the first quake happened, I ran out of the lobby and saw trees waving and buildings jiggling, everyone could only stand there and watch, it's the longest earthquake I've experienced, I felt my adrenaline building up and ready for the buildings to collapse ... all mobiles downed and about an hour later we saw the news about tsunami disasters on TV, so sad seeing people lost their families and love ones....

Those who're still working at Fukushima are real heroes! Good luck to everyone in Japan, take care Lamont.

lwaddict
03-17-2011, 08:01 AM
Wishing Japan all the best...
an earthquake, tsunami, more quakes, reactor issues...
geez.

And as to those nasty posts...
wtf?
There are families over there people...
families.

Those things shouldn't be thought much less posted for posterity. 8/

cresshead
03-17-2011, 12:43 PM
hell on earth, unbelievable, unstoppable power of water and smashed buildings

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12735023

StereoMike
03-17-2011, 04:05 PM
All the best for Japan. I hope they get a wonder at Fukushima.

ken_g9
03-18-2011, 05:40 AM
I pray for a speedy recovery of Japan...as a Japanese I feel heartbroken whenever I see the images and the videos of the disaster. I can just feel lucky I am not there when it happened.

I hope our Newtek/Lightwave members in Japan are safe and sound as well...

I've got a lot of relatives is Tokyo and thank God they are pretty much safe. Though they currently are doing scheduled power shutdowns, besides that a few aftershocks, I was told they're okay.

This is an eye opener for everyone on a lot of things...for those who live along the coastline, or for the countries with nuclear reactors. May this all turn out well...

StereoMike
03-18-2011, 09:34 AM
or for the countries with nuclear reactors.

True. Every other technology we know just stops working once the power drops. On a nuclear plant, you get a nuclear accident when the powercables got cut (no matter what the reason was). We (humans) can't handle this.
Tchernobyl is 25 years ago, I wonder what happens within the next 25 years. There's a lot of plants along that San Andreas fault and in other areas on the globe with earthquakes. Didn't they think about it?

ken_g9
03-18-2011, 09:45 AM
I guess countries need careful planning and foresight. I read Germany shut down a few nuclear reactors which were operational since 1980 to do a safety check.

StereoMike
03-18-2011, 10:31 AM
I guess countries need careful planning and foresight.
And I doubt that's enough. You can't plan with a black swan event in mind, cause you don't know what it will be. Of course, every death caused by human technology is bad, but it's one thing when a fuel station goes up and destroys a block and it's something different when your fuel station is able to send 35 millions to slow death. I was never before aware of the fact, that it takes a lot of energy to prevent a nuclear plant from blowing up. And that you just can't plan every detail of the future.

I read Germany shut down a few nuclear reactors which were operational since 1980 to do a safety check.
It's only for a period of 3 month (till the next elections). But I think the people will stand up and demand a shut down of some old ones. Here in Germany it had always some kind of movement against nuclear plants, it really got some more momentum now (alltough we're pretty alone in the EU with this point of view).

ken_g9
03-18-2011, 10:49 AM
And I doubt that's enough.

Yeah, I guess. These things are not necessarily the easiest things to handle and maintain.

wftiv
03-18-2011, 10:55 AM
How the heck did this thread become a place for negative comments and feelings to flow from so easily. The world has no shortage of tebbile situations that have happened in the past. For me it was a year in Vietnam. But why is there any negative karma that needs to be reflected in toward this disaster. S&^t happens. It is what makes us all human. We do the best we can given situations, good or bad, and this is a really bad one that should only have our most positive "karma" flowing.

Dexter2999
03-18-2011, 10:58 AM
I swear I saw a show almost 20 years ago about a nuclear facility in Germany that was using ceramic beads instead of metal rods. They showed where they shut off the power and let the plant heat, but the ceramic has a higher melting point than the steel so it was able to cool on it's own. Seemed like the logical choice for all reactors to move to. Wonder what the downside was that stopped everyone from converting plants over?

robertoortiz
03-18-2011, 11:15 AM
We all can call the Japanese bureocratsinconpetent until we get blue in face.
But wow on the other hand the japanese people, are handling these events with such strenght
that it is simply beyond human.

I am very impressed on how they have shown themselves to be people of integrity and dignity.
And the workers in the nuclear plant are an example of the beauty of the human spirit.
They all know the risks that the jobs entail, and they are still at it.
Guys they are walking into live nuclear reactors to save their people.

That my friends is is pure grit.
No cynic can take that.

To the people in Japan all of you are in my prayers.
You have shown to the world what true temperance is.

-R

StereoMike
03-19-2011, 12:45 AM
Just seen a German broadcast, where they said, a lot of the people going into the plant are homeless, low-page workers, partly underage. And that this situation is not new, they employed like this for years, when they've taken their radiation dose, they get sacked.
After a bit of research, the latter is the case here, too (For 30-50 seconds they get a weeks pay, and that's it)
Homo homini lupus.

Lamont
03-19-2011, 01:06 AM
Just seen a German broadcast, where they said, a lot of the people going into the plant are homeless, low-page workers, partly underage. Very true. The plant is staffed by homeless children. Who else could have thought of the idea to bring in bright red firetrucks?

Lightwolf
03-19-2011, 06:51 AM
Wonder what the downside was that stopped everyone from converting plants over?
:hijack:
Pebble bed reactors. Both experimental plants haven been shut down due to incidents as well as leakages and will be dismantled. Still, there's plans in other countries (mainly China) to use that technology.

Cheers,
Mike

Dexter2999
03-19-2011, 12:03 PM
That's really too bad. That video looked so promising. And the idea of a reactor that can't melt down? Wow. Do you know if the leakages were due to the brittle nature of the ceramics?

Back on topic, a YouTube channel I watched (not the most reliable source I know) reported that the authorities were asking for older volunteers over younger people. The theory being that older people wouldn't mind if they were rendered sterile from the radiation and that they would be less likely to have children with birth defects as most older people have no desire to make new families. Seems like they are taking the big picture into account.

And I laugh when I see how Americans are amazed that there is no looting in Japan. Amazing what happens when you have a country full of people who take personal responsibility as a way of life over blaming everyone else for their problems.

geo_n
03-19-2011, 09:52 PM
Thank God this thread didn't turn political about ww2 or about the dolphins or even about how we awakened godzilla. Stupid comments I try to avoid these threads about the quake.
Japanese will be ok. There's no looting. Even in the congested population of tokyo, I would forget to leave the flat with windows and main door open and come back at night and nothing happened. Many foreigners, australian, korean, canadian, already told me they feel safest in japan.

cresshead
03-20-2011, 08:20 AM
if i could i'd certainly like to live in Japan, this event has not put me off the idea.
Japanese people seem to be the most polite people i have ever met.

3DBob
04-27-2011, 10:54 AM
For those that are interested in being aware, evidence is increasingly pointing to a "prompt critical nuclear detonation" at the number 3 plutonium containing MOX reactor when it exploded at Fukushima.

To understand what a PC event is:

Prompt Critical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prompt_critical)

As you can see, this has actually happened many times before, but never in a operational reactor - in fact the nuclear lobby dictates that it cannot happen - who would want to live near a reactor if it proves that unforeseen natural events could lead to an N-bomb in their back yard? - in this case a small, but seriously dirty one.

Basically, the hypothesis is that a hydrogen explosion caused the dry MOX fuel rods in the fuel "pool" into a state whereby they created a PC detonation.

PC is how a nuclear weapon detonates.

Arnie Gundersen - A respected nuclear scientist who was VP at 3 mile island and was a key witness on Cernobile explains it very clearly.

Possible PC at Fukushima number 3 fuel pool (http://vimeo.com/22865967)

Should you care?

It is true to say that one is more at risk from being anywhere near a motorised vehicle, yes - so additional risk is marginal, panic certainly not required. But should complacency be the corollary adopted?

If you look at the number 3 photos and compare it to schematics of the building - the floor on which the MOX fuel rods was being stored, basically does not exist - but it has to be somewhere right? That being said, Plutonium is not a threat on the ground, but is if ingested - as are many of the other isotopes emitted and being emitted, as they collect in the bone and marrow.

This article is records the existence of some of the ejected material and the relative toxicity of plutonium.

Local Fallout (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/28/3-types-of-plutonium-detected-at-japans-fukushima-daiichi-plant/)

Given that trans uranics fallout has now been found in Hawaii, California and New England it is likely that some of this volatialised isotopes are here to stay. They will in fact be emitting alpha, beta and gamma radiation for 10,000s of years. Some of these isotopes may concentrate in the food chain and may in time affect bone cancer rates predominantly. This will only happen in the the anecdotal way a frog doesn't know it is being boiled.

It is my belief that this is why the event sublimed from a 3 mile island par 5 accident to a 7.

One can take precautions by living healthily with a varied diet and if one tele-commutes, one should be more likely to live longer than the average. The people that are clearly going to suffer the most are the Japanese, they are on a small island full of reactors and fault lines and My heart goes out to them.

3DBob

JonW
04-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Depending on where you live you are up to twenty times more likely to die in a car accident buying your lottery ticket than winning it!


Everything I've heard on the news about this disaster has all the hallmarks of being very well crafted by world class Spin Doctors! A lot has not been said, but reading between the lines it's bleedingly obviously that there is going to be a continuing high price to pay.

jeric_synergy
04-27-2011, 03:56 PM
I'm pretty sure there's simply no way under physics for a nuclear detonation to occur from the rubble of a power reactor. Plenty of chemical explosions, but not nuclear.

3DBob
04-28-2011, 04:37 AM
Hi Jeric,

That is the position of the nuclear lobby - I used to date 1 of the 3 in the team at whitehall in London and am a firm believer that fission is the bridge we need as abundant, cheap per head, HCs dwindle to hopefully give way to something more sustainable.

The Wikipedia article lists 25 previous Prompt Critical excursions that have happened already - they can in theory happen if fuel rods are inserted into a reactor core too fast.

Now I am no expert, but respected Arnie Gundersen is and his hypothesis that a large mass of non-cooled, plutonium/uranium containing, super heated fuel pellets, with their protective sheath compromised being compressed at extremely high velocity by an Hydrogen explosion could create a prompt criticality is very plausible.

The chain reaction in a prompt criticallity does not happen at flame path or close contact oxidisation speeds, it starts and finishes in a few miliseconds. Fortuanately, the fuel pool wasn't designed as an N-bomb, in these circumstances, the Expanding material will normally go sub critical within a few seconds and the explosive yield will be low. I believe this is what happened.

In summary, a small hydrogen explosion triggered a prompt critical nuclear detonation in a small mass of the number 3 fuel pool. It lost criticality within a second or or so of achieving it.

The result - an extremely dirty bomb as the nuclear detonation may have made volatile a large volume of the MOX fuel pool in a way a chemical explosion could never have done. The plutonium has a half life of 24,000 years - short enough to release a lot of ionising radiation from an inhaled particle over decades and long enough to be an ice-age scale problem for humanity.

Lastly - We know that the spent fuel has thick concrete walls 10 meters high on 4 sides and a concrete base. Also we know that Hydrogen is the lightest molecule known to man. The H2 ignition point could have been the hot fuel rods but pressure would have been exerted on the mass before the rest of the structure failed. Given these facts, is it likely that a hydrogen explosion pushing down from the top into this concrete well would result in MOX fuel pellet fragments being found 3.2 km from the reactor, plutonium dust on the surroundings and various other isotopes being found on another continent?

I would argue that Arnie Gundersen has a better explanation - that the PC detonation somewhere in that mass, fragmented and vapourised the MOX fuel pool. Whilst the visible effects and structure at distance of a nuclear detonation look the same as a conventional explosive, there is a momentary flash of heat in the millions of degrees that is not possible with a chemical explosion - these temperatures are good for vapourising stuff. As I said before, if you look at photos of the reactor, the floor on which the fuel pool resided - appears to not now exist and I'm pretty sure the locals didn't take it as a keep sake when they evacuated.

I've always been a big advocate of nuclear over conventional HC thermal plants, mostly on the grounds that you can be sure where its problem byproducts are.... until now, Fuk changes this conceit. Which leads me to question, should we not think about the risks given the fact that in UK? The last government decided to significantly extend the design life of our ancient reactors - because we have no alternative - should we not seek to reduce risk and move to an alternative sooner?

B

jeric_synergy
04-28-2011, 01:29 PM
3dbob, well, it's a theory, and I'm no physicist.

I will say that I too used to be a nuclear advocate, but having worked at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation cured me of that. Humans just suck too much to run such problematical technology safely.

3DBob
04-28-2011, 02:25 PM
As you say, it is just a theory, there isn't another one that better explains the debris/fallout nature yet. It would be conclusive if the US or Japan released their isotope readings - the US had a scientific plane up at the time. That information if honestly provided could conclusively say the reality.

3DBob

jeric_synergy
04-28-2011, 03:26 PM
Surely there's a bunch of university researchers who are all over this kinda thing.

3DBob
04-28-2011, 04:05 PM
It normally takes decades to get the real data on which to base research,

3 mile Island

Cernobile

to name but two.

3DBob

3DBob
05-08-2011, 03:18 PM
Hi Jeric,

Further to my comments about UK extending the life of its old reactors, It has come to my attention that there are 27 General Electric built reactors of the same design as Fuk in the US (though one would hope not near fault lines). The steps necessary to compromise these plants are now global knowledge which I would regard as a security threat. In contrast to UK, Germany has responded to the events by withdrawing the beyond design life extensions that it had made to its reactors.

Also, I have never spoken to Arnie, however, 3 days after my postulation about H2s lightness and likely pressure vectors/influence that I alluded to here on the 4th, other people have proposed the same observation to him and he appears to agree.

AG Update (http://vimeo.com/23393101)

3DBob