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KScott
03-09-2011, 08:49 AM
hi guys and gals, Is there a market for lw auto designers? It looks like I would have to learn solid works. also it look like modeling is really labor intensive in sw.

Really interested in some feed back.
Thanks
Kevin

stiff paper
03-11-2011, 02:44 AM
I think the lack of responses is down to nobody having ever heard of anybody being employed to design real life cars in LW.

That'll be because nobody designs cars in LW.

Industrial design at a high level has its own very rigid methods and pipelines, and, yeah, none of it involves LW, Max, C4D or anything else that they'd consider "low end". I'm guessing you keep up with sites like www.cardesignnews.com and others. Also, and I'm not meaning to be discouraging in any way, just kind of objective about it, most people that get to design cars for a living seem to have gone through places like Design Center along the way. I'm not saying it's necessary because I don't know enough about that business, but obviously it's a fairly small field and as such it can set its own terms and conditions.

Otterman
03-11-2011, 05:49 AM
I work closely with cad engineers and industrial designers where I work. Im right at the end of the chain in that I have to produce slick marketing material used to sell the product. They love seeing the eyecandy produced from my beloved LW and it blows them away everytime. In their day to day design they are more concerned with function, processes, use of materials and the implications it has in the customers real term use. Thats way too boring for me! I would produce the product with lazer canons if I did that job

KScott
03-11-2011, 07:57 AM
Cardboard Hi, yea i have run across car design news, cool stuff.
Do you think because the industry sees it as inferior, or is it really? Is it that lw doesn't carry 2 more decimal places or something?
i know the measurement placement tools lw doesn't have. but is not a converted dxf from LW same same, Ive read some of the translation procedures, and it seems there is a path.
its just sad to see auto desk suck up everything ha ha. :)
Otterman, cool, Sounds like there is one in the industry (right). And if i where you id get into trouble cause id be in the shop not getting the rendering done. where is some of your stuff posted? Ill look, :)

good to get some feedback

Kevin

accom
03-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Designing "real" objects requires many more information, than LW "knows". :)

One of those is ProEngeener. It comes with biiiig database of materials, so when you construct something, you can define the object's weight, strength, etc... So, our beloved LW is not really meant for industrial design. But it can do other stuff. :) Like Otterman said - Eyecandy... which we all love. Those SW packages have completely different logic than LW and I am absolutely lost when I observe my friend working with it. And of course, vice versa. ;)

Once I designed a plastic housing and when my design (renders and some sketches) went through his hands, he immediately saw loads of tech limitations so we sat together and slightly redesigned the whole thing.

LW and industrial design are light years apart. LW is a great tool for visualisations, but construction is something completely different, especially if there are hi-tech production catches behind it.

kopperdrake
03-11-2011, 01:47 PM
As people have said, LightWave just doesn't have the toolset and/or carry the necessary data handling pipeline for the information needed in product design at that kind of level. We use Inventor to produce laser-cut metal sheet and machined products, and the software knows how to unbend the material to produce flat forms which can then be sent to production. It will allow for bend radius data for specific manufacturing systems and it is aware of production limitations. It can also help you work out stresses inherent in design forms, and deformation probability.

Having produced visuals from CAD data for years, finally seeing the CAD software in action inhouse I am very impressed by the information you can glean from the models. So much so, that for some things it is actually better to model in Inventor and then bring into LightWave. That being said, you can't touch LightWave for getting something quick out if it's just a visual you're after. It wouldn't suprise me to find someone somewhere using it to 'sketch' designs for manufacture, but even then most industrial designers I know would prefer something like Rhino, with its comprehensive nurbs approach.

tribbles
03-11-2011, 03:29 PM
I've redesigned a body for my kit car in LW - but I did have a proper scan of the chassis to help.

I've not actually produced the design yet though (the manufacturer is interested, but it's not the right time to start making a new car).

KScott
03-11-2011, 03:57 PM
full sized chassis? where did you get it scanned?

Kevin

so in cad, lw stuff is just good for reference? :(

ericsmith
03-11-2011, 09:28 PM
I've designed two airplanes entirely in LW (actually three, but the third was not quite in the same arena, being a wood/fabric design that was created using nothing but 2d profiles). One is a six-seat turboprop, and the other a little one-seat LSA. Both projects included not just the exterior design, but all of the internal structures as well. Because the company that was doing the manufacturing used a "2-1/2D" CNC machine, LW was probably a better choice than more dedicated CAD software. The software that drives the CNC accepted DXF meshes, and actually scanned the topology to create cut paths.

I would agree, however, that for the automotive design industry in general (or pretty much any manufacturing company, for that matter), you won't find much if any call for LW artists.

You can take a look at the projects here:

http://www.sreyaaviation.com

and here:

http://www.ayerscraft.com

Eric

calilifestyle
03-11-2011, 10:43 PM
Catia very powerful, can handle large very large files.

tribbles
03-13-2011, 02:37 PM
full sized chassis? where did you get it scanned?

Kevin

so in cad, lw stuff is just good for reference? :(

Unfortunately, I didn't get it scanned - the manufacturer provided a chassis for a potential customer who got it scanned (and provided the manufacturer the scan [which was part of the conditions] - they gave it to me).

They also got the body scanned as well, but that was less interesting to me.

Snosrap
03-13-2011, 06:53 PM
Autodesk bought Alias to get into the auto design industry. If you want to design cars work on your sketching and learn Alias.

erikals
03-13-2011, 11:51 PM
cool stuff Eric... :]

KScott
03-14-2011, 01:32 PM
Yes thank you Eric, your post answered alot of questions for me. Some very nice work!
Kevin

ericsmith
03-14-2011, 01:39 PM
Thanks.

Yeah, they were very interesting projects to work on. I ended up learning a ton about aviation and aeronotical design, as well as fabrication and the like.

On top of that, they really helped to improve my modeling skills, because of the accuracy involved.

Eric

KScott
03-15-2011, 10:54 PM
Hi snosrap, yes I remember the days. Did Worked for 3d software reseller then. Solidworks or pro engineer it looks like. And I wanted to see if I could get some work needed out of lw.
you guys have helped me,thank you.

And creaform is the best option I'm seeing out there for scanning, but they don't like. To call people back! :)

Kevin

prometheus
03-16-2011, 07:48 AM
ericsmith..I get some avast Malware warning on one of your aviation links?

about car design, well I would guess that alias 2011 family products ..such as alias design-for inventor, alias surfaces and especially alias automotive is whatīs on the "carpet today"

Rhino of course, the lexus car in the movie Minority report was designed with that.
http://www.cars-wallpapers.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/lexus-minority-report-sports-car.jpg

A-pipeline for rendering the stuff with lightwave can be tricky if you need to work with solidworks files or other solid and nurbs design tools, you need to be able to handle all that polygons and to get the correct vertex smoothing data out of the transfers, and lightwave has some issues with rendering that correctly.

Modo has a good relation ship with solidworks and letīs you import solidworks files directly.

the maxwell fire plugin is out for solidworks too for faster better renderings.

Here at work I get to render out our gym machine constructions in lightwave, and it goes throu solidworks-deep exploration and lightwave rendering.

Michael

ericsmith
03-16-2011, 10:02 AM
ericsmith..I get some avast Malware warning on one of your aviation links?


Can you by chance tell me which one? We got hacked a while ago, where someone inserted a single line of code into all our "index.html" files, but I eraticated everything I could find.

If I missed something, I'd really like to get it taken care of.

Eric

prometheus
03-16-2011, 11:27 AM
Can you by chance tell me which one? We got hacked a while ago, where someone inserted a single line of code into all our "index.html" files, but I eraticated everything I could find.

If I missed something, I'd really like to get it taken care of.

Eric

This link..
http://www.ayerscraft.com/

Using firefox and avast..
getting message of infection html:Iframe-inf

if that is a true infection that is..

Michael

ericsmith
03-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Yup, it is, (just based on the fact that the embedded link is not something I put there) and I've removed it.

Thanks for the heads up.

Eric

Riff_Masteroff
03-18-2011, 05:10 PM
Catia very powerful, can handle large very large files.

For large scale building construction, LW, as I have previously stated, works well in the 'mix'. Following is an example of an lwo object of a strangely cut compound curve is imported into CATIA, which in turn drives a real world 3d milling machine.

Narrative: a portion of the 1st balcony of a music hall needed to be removable. The balcony face is constructed of 3" thick plaster (for purposes of sound proofing). If plaster, the removable portion would be too heavy and would probably crack with many cycles of removal/assembly by the stage crew. To clarify, when the concert hall stage was configured for a chorus, this piece would be removed and replaced with a short set of stairs. When the stage was setup for symphony orch-only the choral 'wagons' would be lowered into the basement via stage elevator (removed from audience's view) and the removable balcony section would be re-installed by the stage hands.

Top Photo: These two armatures (frames) for left and right balcony were constructed by hand. Tnx to the general contractor's machine shop. And they were fabricated directly from the lwo model of them. A high degree of precision was required here, because the two had to match many components of the entire assembly.

2nd Photo from top: 'The 3d Milling Machine.' Is about the size of an auto garage. The shape to be carved is from an lwo object (imported into CATIA).

3rd Photo down from top: The white mold is the carved out result from the milling machine. Its material, after intended use, can be melted down in an oven and reused for a different purpose. Metal armatures, constructed on project site and transported to factory. They are placed onto the mold.

4th Photo down from the top: GFRG (glass fiber reinforced gypsum) as a 'mud' is sprayed over the armature and onto the mold. Then the assembly is baked for about an hour in a large oven. After cooling it is released from the mold and now is one piece combined with metal frame. Sand, trim and get Riff to cart it back to the construction site. Now ready to be installed.

Comment: I will agree that LW might not to good for some manufacturing work, but . . . . . for building construction, most ppl here will not believe how useful its been in all so many ways. This being but one of them.

Snosrap
03-18-2011, 06:55 PM
lwo works with CATIA for real world manufacture

Really? CATIA loads .lwo's and continued design work can happen?

Riff_Masteroff
03-18-2011, 10:10 PM
The work flow node tree actually is LW to PolyTrans to CATIA. My posting was too short to mention all the gory details. The overall translation was just perfect except for scale. The CATIA person had to convert overall scale by 1/2.54 (english to metric) manually. At that time, and for that particular project, there wasn't a need to bring in iges to LW, but for sure I can do that.

Riff_Masteroff
03-19-2011, 12:58 AM
An example of the synergy offered by using LW:

On one hand, on the right side, the attached image shows a crane model WIP. This model cannot be used for constructing a tower crane: It is a seat-of-the-pants approximation developed from photos and hand measurements. Btw: still to show or be modeled: Crane Hook, Concrete Bucket, Wire Rope rigging and some other stuff. Kat, through his spacey tuts, is helping me learn compositing and surfacing. Sadly, in construction, those abilities are not needed often.

On the other hand, on the left side, I have modeled to a great extent the project being constructed. The photo doesn't quite show this, but, well, you get the idea. That is an accurate construction model. The completed structure has far more curves than straight angles. One use, not the only use, of the LW model is to load curve layout directly into a surveying instrument (via dxf). Sadly, but typically, the architect provided incomplete info. A circle from any three points / a sphere from any four points, as an example, is a god-send in LW modeler for LW in the real world.

Once again, this is not LW in design, but LW in construction & manufacture. Oh, and I used LW10 Modeler 64bit for display, but I normally use LW10 Modeler 32bit for its backwards compatibility.

geo_n
03-19-2011, 10:00 PM
Lw to polytrans to catia? Are the mesh clean in Catia?
I've been looking at learning catia because its a very popular program and high paying job.

Riff_Masteroff
03-20-2011, 06:47 AM
Lw to polytrans to catia? Are the mesh clean in Catia?
I've been looking at learning catia because its a very popular program and high paying job.

Geo_N: In reference to the concert hall project: As I have said, my posting was too short to mention all the gory details. I was 'stuck' on a project site in the Washington, DC metro area. Actually that wasn't so bad, I was immersed in the 'thick' of things. Always the architect came to my desk when I wanted her to look at something. Its a matter of paperwork: before I formally present a found problem (RFI-Request For Information), I would provide an virtual look-see. More often than not, the architect's ppl would work/solve before they were contractually required to: Solutions were created before problem(s) were formally presented. Besides that, I attended project management meetings in the construction trailers and, separately would walk out onto the site to observe and talk to the ppl actually doing the work. Hundreds of ppl here in management or design, Thousands of ppl (really) doing the actual work. Open door for all.

My function was to analyze an architect's murky design: "We" wanted to find constructability problems well before the actual day of construction of that item. And have the designer clarify or redesign that detail. Makes sense, saves money: 'a stitch in time saves nine'. On our side of the fence, that 'function' expanded into helping the subcontractors. They needed to know how their very particular work fitted in with adjacent work. They needed help with layout, sometimes on a twice daily basis. Layout is a big deal.

Riff, the designer: I am not a designer, I don't want to design anything at all. But I had to for the removable balcony pieces. Five months before the pieces were need to be installed (actual construction now well in progress), the Architect would not elaborate a note on the plans: "removable". The design team is obviously responsible for design, not the general contractor. No help in clarifying the "note". Various subcontractors on the general contractor's side refused to bid (too complex and not in the contract we signed). So.....I said, I will design and manufacture it for you. Give me the go-ahead, support and finances. And they did. Surprised the heck out of me.

Manufacture: I had had previous experience working with a manufacturer in Toronto, Canada. Yet another huge, very complex and wonderful project in the DC area. They did all their work based on 3d CATIA models. Once the Formglas project manager priced (5000usd) and committed, I was able to speak with the CATIA person directly via phone: I hadn't even seen CATIA up on a monitor screen.
Geo_N, your question: He said the mesh translation that he was viewing was very clean. My LW mesh was frozen polys. He also said that he frequently was provided stuff from Rhino, this was a first time for him from LW. I did have a whole lot of polys, but I should have had more. The milling machine, properly, revealed the poly flats. Formglas said 'no worries', they merely removed the flats with light sanding after manufacture.

Respect: Even from within the LW community. I care not so much for myself, but I do care for LightWave. In private conversation and on viewing my manufacturing post on this thread, Lightwolf said: 'Why not? If it works it works...I wouldn't build a complete building like that though'. He then went on to mention other software: I suppose I keep thinking more along these lines: http://www.gehrytechnologies.com/ . . . and saying to me: 'I was only wondering if you're aware of the software.' I replied: 'yes, of course' . . . Well . . . it was a fair conversation . . . but, I would like to see the community here actually support LightWave's many possible uses.

Geo_N: We were worried about you, good to hear from you! How do you fare being in the midst?

djlithium
03-20-2011, 07:21 AM
LightWave rocks. More than every, its users need to get behind it, roll up their sleeves and pump out awesome stuff and make sure NT is aware of it so they can do case studies or marketing surrounding its many uses in many fields. This will help to increase sales and further development across the board while also giving the general public a better or great first impression of LW front and center when considered against other apps.

Lewis
03-20-2011, 07:37 AM
LW is very capable and you can do lot of stuff but for CAR design we need NURBS and sadly LW still don't have them so i wouldn't recommend LW for designing cars :(. for Eye candy YES of course but complete design without NURBS isn't really something you'd want to do. Although I've made several CAR parts (like bumpers, side skirts..) which have been moulded from direct LWO to STL export i can tell you that it's been PITA to adjust scale/dimensions 'coz when you hit TAB key object becomes little smaller and precision is lost :(.

Also drilling holes in smooth round shapes with SubDs is problematic so it's not best in any case for any kind of precise CAR design.

JohnMarchant
03-21-2011, 12:06 AM
LW is very capable and you can do lot of stuff but for CAR design we need NURBS and sadly LW still don't have them so i wouldn't recommend LW for designing cars :(. for Eye candy YES of course but complete design without NURBS isn't really something you'd want to do. Although I've made several CAR parts (like bumpers, side skirts..) which have been moulded from direct LWO to STL export i can tell you that it's been PITA to adjust scale/dimensions 'coz when you hit TAB key object becomes little smaller and precision is lost :(.

Also drilling holes in smooth round shapes with SubDs is problematic so it's not best in any case for any kind of precise CAR design.

Well Nurbs would get my vote any day, but it aint going to happen in LW and probably not Core Either

Lewis
03-21-2011, 01:25 AM
Well Nurbs would get my vote any day, but it aint going to happen in LW and probably not Core Either

Well, i wouldn't rule out that option :). Check NTs job offer:

http://www.newtek.com/careers.php

And here is part of "requirements" for that job:
Solid Experience In:

Understanding of 3D modeling and computer graphics technology. The following areas are important.

* Design and implementation of modeling tools and workflows with a variety of mesh types, including polygonal, subdivision surfaces, NURBS and solids.
* Geometry manipulation and processing using both the CPU and the GPU.
* Experience in developing high-performance OpenGL realtime display systems for 2D and 3D applications.
* Expert knowledge in writing hardware shaders using GLSL and Cg on all supported platforms.
* Experience with stream processing on the GPU using OpenCL/CUDA.

JohnMarchant
03-21-2011, 03:17 AM
Well if it happens in Core i will be a happy bunny, if it happens in LW Native i will be a doubly Happy Bunny. But i will believe it when i see it Mate

Lewis
03-21-2011, 03:26 AM
But i will believe it when i see it Mate

True, I was hoping to see that much much earlier but now with latest DEV team shuffle it even might happen, i have more trust in this team now since they know what we Lightwavers need, especially in modeling department which was low on upgrades for last 5 years so it's just about time that modeling starts getting attention ;).

JohnMarchant
03-21-2011, 04:28 AM
True, I was hoping to see that much much earlier but now with latest DEV team shuffle it even might happen, i have more trust in this team now since they know what we Lightwavers need, especially in modeling department which was low on upgrades for last 5 years so it's just about time that modeling starts getting attention ;).

Thats where i would like to see the most work. Sort modeler out, get tools working, combine where possible. Dont need new features just make what we have work as advertised.

Maybe who knows with the new Dev Team you maybe right, well i hope you are right mate

erikals
03-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Well Nurbs would get my vote any day, but it aint going to happen in LW and probably not Core Either

LWcad has some new NURBS tools, and Viktor said he might add it to CORE too...

Lewis
03-21-2011, 11:48 AM
LWcad has some new NURBS tools, and Viktor said he might add it to CORE too...

"might" and "some" aren't particularly handy in this kind of work, It needs to work all the way and you need to have all tools at disposal, with trimming, blending, spline adjusting and all that nice things about NURBS (of course there is Cons too but for me Pro side is much longer list ;)) ;).

erikals
03-21-2011, 11:51 AM
true, but NURBS is just a bonus,...
neither one of the other art-3D packages has very good NURBS tools afaik...

Lewis
03-21-2011, 12:26 PM
true, but NURBS is just a bonus,...
neither one of the other art-3D packages has very good NURBS tools afaik...

I've seen Maya tutorials with modeling cars in NURBS just fine and there was lot of nice tools. Not sure about XSI but i think XSI also has pretty capable NURBS stuff.

erikals
03-21-2011, 01:22 PM
um, i've done some NURBS modeling in Maya, was not impressed, very basic, and often clunky methods...
so, left it alone in the end...

Lewis
03-21-2011, 01:46 PM
um, i've done some NURBS modeling in Maya, was not impressed, very basic, and often clunky methods...
so, left it alone in the end...

And that was Maya 20.. version? I've seen CAR modeling tutorial made by Digital Tutors and it worked very nice.

Either way just Importing NURBS model form other packages(like MOI or Rhino or Solidworks) directly into LWCORE would already be great start if it could just recognize IGES and render it without holes in mesh i.e. redoing as polys...

erikals
03-21-2011, 02:21 PM
nope, version 8, but too long ago maybe, can't remember that part anymore...
basically left Maya,... (sorry i can't be more specific, just remember i didn't like the workflow and limitations...)

does it have chamfer now btw? it'd be a big plus...

 

KScott
03-21-2011, 03:03 PM
A i got it. ive studied, now i see where you need nurbs. so future of nurbs would be something to put on my wish lists from NT. along with go z

Kevin

KScott
03-21-2011, 03:12 PM
I thought Maya has had some nice car design tools, nurbs , Long time. They where showing the tools off at there first ever 3 December thing. where they where giving away Buel motor cycle designed with those tools. 2001? cant remember. I was doing deap paint demo's so i didn't get to see. :( The stuff i saw in the office demo for like 5 mins, i remember it being impressive. ?? perhaps im just easily impressed. :)

Kevin

Lewis
03-21-2011, 03:17 PM
does it have chamfer now btw? it'd be a big plus...

 

AFAIR Maya uses Bevel similar to LWModeler Bevel+Rounder 'coz it can add segments to bevel (on polygons/edges/points). Not sure about Chamfer but it has separate tool for chamfering/beveling NURBS Surfaces called Bevel Plus or Bevel+ :).

Snosrap
03-21-2011, 07:06 PM
Well, i wouldn't rule out that option :). Check NTs job offer:

http://www.newtek.com/careers.php

And here is part of "requirements" for that job:
Solid Experience In:

Understanding of 3D modeling and computer graphics technology. The following areas are important.

* Design and implementation of modeling tools and workflows with a variety of mesh types, including polygonal, subdivision surfaces, NURBS and solids.
* Geometry manipulation and processing using both the CPU and the GPU.
* Experience in developing high-performance OpenGL realtime display systems for 2D and 3D applications.
* Expert knowledge in writing hardware shaders using GLSL and Cg on all supported platforms.
* Experience with stream processing on the GPU using OpenCL/CUDA.

They've had that job posted forever.

erikals
03-21-2011, 11:37 PM
yes, think it's been 2 years now...

 

Lewis
03-22-2011, 02:01 AM
They've had that job posted forever.

Yes I know and i think it's about time to fill that position and start working on modeling/NURBs tools for CORE so we can compete with other products which have NURBs for years.