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View Full Version : The possibility of ET "advanced civilisations".



meshpig
03-08-2011, 03:40 AM
Bit of a fav topic around here but recently it occurred to me that the Solar Eclipse is quite extraordinary in that the Moon actually fits over the Sun at this point in the life of the Solar system such that Einstein's prediction of light bending in space-time could be observed.

Now, how many "earth like" planets are also going to have that peculiar set up in conjunction with an Albert Einstein? Or, conversely, no Solar Eclispe no way of knowing.

RebelHill
03-08-2011, 04:11 AM
please... lets not.

I firmly believe that the universe is (simply put) a random ocurrence, devoid of divine intervention... and Id say Im pretty skeptical towards the ideas of the possible interventions of other intelligences, either recently, or far off in the past.

However the moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat...

unsettling.

meshpig
03-08-2011, 04:56 AM
The moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat...

unsettling.

Well, not unsettling just an unlikely thing given the dubious notion of there being ET "advanced civilisations".

- The reason the Moon does that is it was formed from the ejecta of a collision with a Mars sized object early on and whatever had enough mass to escape did and the rest remained oriented to earth's gravitational field which also rounded it into a moon.

There again, without the moon the earth would spin wildly and there'd be no regular seasons... thus no great spawning of life in the early oceans after simple bacteria had prepared them for a billion years beforehand.

The chances are "life" really isn't out there...

gerry_g
03-08-2011, 05:46 AM
is that Jon Malkovich is the moon or is he just mooning at meshpig ?

meshpig
03-08-2011, 05:53 AM
John Malkovich.

:eek: oh, no, please, no I mean please not , no.... aaaaagh!

meshpig
03-08-2011, 05:59 AM
is that Jon Malkovich is the moon or is he just mooning at meshpig ?

Yes, it's JM the Moon. Where would we be without him? Apart from those who happen to work with him who else would see his fat arse:D

meshpig
03-08-2011, 06:10 AM
Beam me up Scotty...

meshpig
03-08-2011, 06:13 AM
... some old but amusing music while we wait.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuzqQYhx-80

cresshead
03-08-2011, 06:28 AM
Well, not unsettling just an unlikely thing given the dubious notion of there being ET "advanced civilisations".

- The reason the Moon does that is it was formed from the ejecta of a collision with a Mars sized object early on and whatever had enough mass to escape did and the rest remained oriented to earth's gravitational field which also rounded it into a moon.

There again, without the moon the earth would spin wildly and there'd be no regular seasons... thus no great spawning of life in the early oceans after simple bacteria had prepared them for a billion years beforehand.

The chances are "life" really isn't out there...


that's a theory no a fact btw.
also the notion of 'wildly spinning' is somewhat off is you look at Venus our sister planet.

meshpig
03-08-2011, 06:37 AM
... Deep in the 1970's;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J7fKamTNZ0

RebelHill
03-08-2011, 07:05 AM
Well, not unsettling just an unlikely thing given the dubious notion of there being ET "advanced civilisations".

- The reason the Moon does that is it was formed from the ejecta of a collision with a Mars sized object early on and whatever had enough mass to escape did and the rest remained oriented to earth's gravitational field which also rounded it into a moon.

There again, without the moon the earth would spin wildly and there'd be no regular seasons... thus no great spawning of life in the early oceans after simple bacteria had prepared them for a billion years beforehand.

The chances are "life" really isn't out there...

Well the rest didnt remain oriented to earth, not at all... in the past the moon (and the earth too) span faster... millions of years ago, the "dark side" would have been quite visible to us here... and will again millions of years into the future... it jsut so happens that at this particular time we only see the one, seemingly unchanging face from earth.

As for the wild spinning... with the moon wandering off, wild spinning will occur... however this is only because earth's rotational axis is tilted, probs caused by the much supposed collision event. had that never occurred, and the moon never formed, there would be no wild spinning at all.

There would also be no seasons, jsut one single, year round season, but there's no reason whatsoever to assume that life could not have formed under such a condition... by contrast, life adapting to fit an ever changing pattern of warm to cold and back again seems less likely, yet clearly works.

meshpig
03-08-2011, 07:06 AM
that's a theory no a fact btw.
also the notion of 'wildly spinning' is somewhat off is you look at Venus our sister planet.

Yes theories, and "wildly" relative to the orderliness the Moon, so to speak. - Venus couldn't "support" a moon anyway 'cos too close to the sun.

lwaddict
03-08-2011, 07:46 AM
The comparison of any and all potential life to life here is simply small minded.

Things happened here that lead to where and what we are...
who is to say for certain that it all couldn't have gone a million other directions and still have life...
and who is to say that THIS is civilization (spelled correctly here)?

We are a virus, almost by definition.
I only wonder if every cell in a full infection ever ponders how civilized the whole is.

gerry_g
03-08-2011, 09:01 AM
http://gizmodo.com/#!5779564/the-supermoon-apocalypse-is-near-or-maybe-not

erikals
03-08-2011, 10:01 AM
life can have any form, as long as the molecules "communicate" imo

http://www.whatsnextblog.com/popcorn.png

Dexter2999
03-08-2011, 10:23 AM
I tried Google but I couldn't find a reference to a convention I read about 20 years ago (or more). It was a group of scientists and artists. They would break up into teams and try to theorize what type of flora and fauna would evolve in different atmospheres/environments. Then the artists would do drawings of the results.

Would have liked to have gone to something like that.

meshpig
03-08-2011, 09:59 PM
Well the rest didnt remain oriented to earth, not at all... in the past the moon (and the earth too) span faster... millions of years ago, the "dark side" would have been quite visible to us here... and will again millions of years into the future... it jsut so happens that at this particular time we only see the one, seemingly unchanging face from earth.

As for the wild spinning... with the moon wandering off, wild spinning will occur... however this is only because earth's rotational axis is tilted, probs caused by the much supposed collision event. had that never occurred, and the moon never formed, there would be no wild spinning at all.

There would also be no seasons, jsut one single, year round season, but there's no reason whatsoever to assume that life could not have formed under such a condition... by contrast, life adapting to fit an ever changing pattern of warm to cold and back again seems less likely, yet clearly works.

The moon completes one rotation in the same time as it completes an orbit around the earth... at least as a moon and not when both were molten balls it's always been synchronous.

... In any case a planet with one constant season could also mean it's constantly extremely cold, always raining or like the Sahara.

I mean more the idea that "advanced civilisations" exist as I don't doubt life is most likely going to occur wherever there is liquid water. In the sense that %99 of all species which have existed on earth are already extinct and that only one species out of billions over 4.5 billion years on a very hospitable planet came up with this thing civilisation ... by accident:)

Nangleator
03-09-2011, 08:35 AM
The fact that the moon is tidally locked is no big deal. That condition will apply for billions of years. Nothing unusual at all.

But... the fact that the moon so perfectly occludes the sun is astonishing. Particularly when you consider the moon isn't trapped into an orbit around the Earth. It's falling away and will eventually be gone from us. So that sliver of time that the moon and the sun are the same diameter has fallen within the sliver of time that we've reached a technological age, and can benefit from it... It boggles the mind.

Not that the coincidence was necessary for us, or anything. We'd have figured out the Relativity thing in time.

As for other aspects being perfectly 'selected' for human life... Linky. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDC_NcihiV8) Starting at around 3:40, although the whole thing is good.

jeric_synergy
03-09-2011, 10:43 AM
However the moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat...

unsettling.
I don't think the rotational/tidal locking issue matters: it would 'fit over' the Sun even if it were rotating.

What kind of window are we talking about? How many thousands of years will the moon exhibit this particular apparent width?
++++++
Shoulda read the whole thread.

2) I don't think Venus' proximity to the Sun precludes it having a moon.

3) Earth's moon probably multiplied by many times the likelihood , or at least the speed, of biogenesis occurring here, through the creation of tidepools. Tidepools would be like millions of square miles of petri dishes, all with some chance of getting the right mix to kickstart biochemical replication. Zillions of flipping coins. Without tides, you've got a lot fewer coins.

RebelHill
03-09-2011, 10:49 AM
What kind of window are we talking about?

Tens of millions of years

Nangleator
03-09-2011, 10:54 AM
What kind of window are we talking about? How many thousands of years will the moon exhibit this particular apparent width?

Geez, I may be wrong about this. From here, (http://www.windows2universe.org/kids_space/moon_orbit.html) you can see that while the moon is moving away, the process won't continue forever.

I read an Asimov book when I was young that described orbital mechanics quite well, and if you followed the math, it became apparent that the moon is too far away for its orbital speed, and thus it will leave, eventually. Asimov wrong? Dang!

meshpig
03-10-2011, 12:00 AM
The comparison of any and all potential life to life here is simply small minded.

Things happened here that lead to where and what we are...
who is to say for certain that it all couldn't have gone a million other directions and still have life...
and who is to say that THIS is civilization (spelled correctly here)?

We are a virus, almost by definition.
I only wonder if every cell in a full infection ever ponders how civilized the whole is.

The first forms of life on earth spent a billion years (1000 000 000 ) not doing much by way of evolution. The reason being the place was uninhabitable for anything much more than Stromatolites which are still around today a few billion years later.

It isn't small minded at all to compare all life in the universe to what's happened here because the earth is stacked with everything the periodic table can muster including a massive injection of iron from the collision resulting in the moon... an element made in very old stars when the lighter atoms have been used up and the fusion is between carbon and the next one up (?). Also all the millions of different ways things could have turned out is already there in the diversity of all actual life on earth. Like billions upon billions of species most of which have been and gone, most of which even exist today we know nothing about

- Consider the Industrial revolution which ushers in our machine building "advanced" civilisation. Without the abundance iron, no Iron Age to begin with. Civilisations have come and gone but great as some of them have been they didn't invent radio. That required the super abundance of a planet like earth to be able to sustain enough people to have a world war so that it became necessary. Simple logic says if you have a planet less materially abundant and diverse than earth such things won't happen.

Anti-Distinctly
03-10-2011, 02:02 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Probability-1-Amir-D-Aczel/dp/0156010801

It's a fairly dry, yet thorough, account of probability of finding life on other planets. The reviewers on Amazon don't seem to care for it though...

Furthermore, when it comes to the Moon fitting over the Sun, it is quite a coincidence, but bear in mind that the Moon's orbit is slightly eccentric (I don't think it's very eccentric, I can't remember off the top of my head) and that the Sun doesn't really have a distinct edge.

meshpig
03-10-2011, 03:26 AM
Furthermore, when it comes to the Moon fitting over the Sun, it is quite a coincidence, but bear in mind that the Moon's orbit is slightly eccentric (I don't think it's very eccentric, I can't remember off the top of my head) and that the Sun doesn't really have a distinct edge.

... what's to say "machine civilisation" here in a 1000 years won't become something else? I mean you don't necessarily need a nuclear holocaust or a catastrophe.

glebe digital
03-10-2011, 03:59 AM
Is this the answer:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3C2p4st10tI/R-CgjQAoTnI/AAAAAAAAAH8/HDcOAUh0CKk/s320/2001-monolith2.jpg

No Idea. :alien:

meshpig
03-10-2011, 04:39 AM
If you ask a stupid question... :bday:

Car ads are the answer. I mean they have to be because if you buy a mondeo you use less fuel right. I mean they are OK! and don't you just ****** hate it when there's so little on pay TV you start to complain when the show yer watching ends, then there's 8 minutes of ads only to get the credits after. The miserable, sleaze bag, rip-off, pernicious, slimy, back handed, cheating, cheap and nasty, slimy greasy, greedy little C*nts!!!

glebe digital
03-10-2011, 05:01 AM
Well, I binned my tv years ago......hence no tv angst, no ads.....once the sh*tpipe is unplugged life gets sweeter.

FZ: I'm the slime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HyTP9sP_aI

meshpig
03-10-2011, 05:21 AM
Yes, know that one well. Bloody long time ago too... thanks, haven't heard it for years. He was a funny bugger, only in America would someone bother being so ridiculously contrary? "I'm a Conservative"... oh well, I'm sure Johnny Carson didn't give a **** either.

safetyman
03-10-2011, 05:38 AM
I follow the Carl Sagan view -- life on other planets is not only possible, it's actually quite common. Just recently, scientists have found that life (read: microbes) may exist on moons around Jupiter and Saturn, and it's giving all the "rare-life" theorists a caniption.

On some other world out there, all the CG folks use Lightwave, and 3DS Max and the others are playing catch up -- You can't even sniff a job unless you learned LW in school. Oh, and all the traffic is fine because all the drivers actually go the speed limit (sorry -- bad commute this morning).

glebe digital
03-10-2011, 06:04 AM
Plenty of mysteries out there.

Klaus Dona : The Hidden History of the Human Race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus

meshpig
03-10-2011, 06:05 AM
I follow the Carl Sagan view -- life on other planets is not only possible, it's actually quite common. Just recently, scientists have found that life (read: microbes) may exist on moons around Jupiter and Saturn, and it's giving all the "rare-life" theorists a caniption.

On some other world out there, all the CG folks use Lightwave, and 3DS Max and the others are playing catch up -- You can't even sniff a job unless you learned LW in school. Oh, and all the traffic is fine because all the drivers actually go the speed limit (sorry -- bad commute this morning).

"Conniption" is a word you don't often hear. "Rare-life" theorists being a bunch of racist christians or mumbling hysterics? I don't drive but watching TV is the same... oh, wait a minute. Casino a'la Robert De Niro is just starting. All those same coloured suits, shirts and ties:)

meshpig
03-10-2011, 06:11 AM
Plenty of mysteries out there.

Klaus Dona : The Hidden History of the Human Race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus

Are you taking your medication properly?:D:bday::spam::)

glebe digital
03-10-2011, 06:36 AM
You Mean?....

http://ukiahcommunityblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/pharma.jpg

:tsktsk:

I've no plans to become a modern Arcimboldo..... :D

lwaddict
03-10-2011, 08:06 AM
The first forms of life on earth spent a billion years (1000 000 000 ) not doing much by way of evolution. The reason being the place was uninhabitable for anything much more than Stromatolites which are still around today a few billion years later.

It isn't small minded at all to compare all life in the universe to what's happened here because the earth is stacked with everything the periodic table can muster including a massive injection of iron from the collision resulting in the moon... an element made in very old stars when the lighter atoms have been used up and the fusion is between carbon and the next one up (?). Also all the millions of different ways things could have turned out is already there in the diversity of all actual life on earth. Like billions upon billions of species most of which have been and gone, most of which even exist today we know nothing about

- Consider the Industrial revolution which ushers in our machine building "advanced" civilisation. Without the abundance iron, no Iron Age to begin with. Civilisations have come and gone but great as some of them have been they didn't invent radio. That required the super abundance of a planet like earth to be able to sustain enough people to have a world war so that it became necessary. Simple logic says if you have a planet less materially abundant and diverse than earth such things won't happen.


So...
in short.
Based on your belief that 'our' periodic table is complete and holds everything in the universe...
ok.
But one thing that science has proven to us time and time again.
We 'do not' know everything.

So your theory is flawed right off the bat.

I quote, "Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting **** dead wrong."
We need to quit thinking that we've come even remotely close to knowing it all. If that were true, why is everything so screwed up right now eh?

Eh?

EH?

erikals
03-10-2011, 01:15 PM
read about a bacteria that could survive in from -150C to +200 C today
(or something like that)

Nangleator
03-10-2011, 01:27 PM
Oh, I believe life is common, but technological civilizations really, really rare. Not sure about intelligence. (Imagine another planet where there's no dry land. Do you think you could make the first breakthroughs necessary for technological civilization if you can make a fire by hitting two rocks together?)

Iain
03-10-2011, 02:27 PM
The sun/moon ratio coincidence is pretty amazing but only in our terms and those are the terms of the inhabitants of an infinitesimal part of the universe.
Even our fledgling cosmic knowledge tells us that there are endless possibilities for other amazing coincidences out there and that some of these will likely promote and support life.

We can't see far enough to observe any other life however, so we immediately think we are special and alone, created by a supreme being to fill a wonderful (speck of dust sized) space in his house.

To compare the chances of the evolution of intelligence on another world billions of light years away with the exact way and conditions in which we evolved really just shows a lack of imagination. Anything could be 'out there'.

stiff paper
03-10-2011, 04:35 PM
We can't see far enough to observe any other life however, so we immediately think we are special and alone, created by a supreme being to fill a wonderful (speck of dust sized) space in his house.

Hmm. Except the numbers for almost everything are in the billions of billions. And it's all been around for a hell of a long time...

So if we take, let's just say for example, the advanced life that came about on some of those suitable planets out there more than a million years ago... which because the numbers are all so crazy should still give us millions of planets inhabited by advanced life forms... so, yeah, there you go, we'll give them a million years to work on their tech. A million years of scientific advance. Just imagine. (And it doesn't have to be a million years, we could pick the ones that had come about up to 3000 years ago... even more of them...)

And none of them, not one, not a single one of millions is detectable or has shown their face or left any detectable trace in any way whatsoever.

It's irrelevant that we can't detect them. The numbers make it irrelevant.

All we're left with is to fish about for reasons: maybe faster than light travel is actually, fundamentally impossible, in which case none of us is ever going to meet up with any of the others. Or maybe ftl travel isn't necessarily impossible, but the problem is that there simply aren't any advanced lifeforms out there.

But there's absolutely no escape from the fact that the same numbers that say they should be out there also say they should have been out there for a long time now. And if that's true - where are they?

(But hey, I do completely agree that just because people can imagine something it doesn't follow that what they imagine is true.)

JonW
03-10-2011, 07:12 PM
We will probably destroy ourselves & too much politics to cause it all. If we can grow up & look at the bigger picture & develop transport that can go faster than light we will explore every inch of the universe. It’s the nature of all life to explore to the limits of it’s ability.

It’s just that the universe is such a bloody big place, it will take a long time to find something out there even if the bulk of looking is automated.

I Just hope we are in the position of finding others before they find us. We don’t have a good track record on our own planet. If we scale this up to the universe I hate to think of the repercussions if one is the inferior civilisation. Completely wiped out, or worse still, slavery, & I bet they will have some very imaginative ideas.

I think us not being found is the better option. But we are doing our utmost to be found by all the electro radiation being sent out. At least it’s travelling very slowly, only at the speed of light! & the chances of another advanced civilisation being around at this point in time is pretty remote. Lets just hope their politics nails them first!

probiner
03-10-2011, 07:25 PM
I Just hope we are in the position of finding others before they find us

Let's find ourselves first!

erikals
03-10-2011, 10:16 PM
ditto,...
i believe though that if they find us, they won't make contact, they'll "sit still" and wait for us to find them.
no reason there shouldn't be more intelligent life out in space than on this specific ball...

meshpig
03-10-2011, 10:59 PM
So...
in short.
Based on your belief that 'our' periodic table is complete and holds everything in the universe...
ok.
But one thing that science has proven to us time and time again.
We 'do not' know everything.

So your theory is flawed right off the bat.

I quote, "Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting **** dead wrong."
We need to quit thinking that we've come even remotely close to knowing it all. If that were true, why is everything so screwed up right now eh?

Eh?

EH?

All bets are off if the periodic table is a mere fiction. It holds for atoms here and billions of light years away/ago so it isn't really just "ours".

Iain
03-11-2011, 01:17 AM
And none of them, not one, not a single one of millions is detectable or has shown their face or left any detectable trace in any way whatsoever.

It's irrelevant that we can't detect them. The numbers make it irrelevant.


I'm not sure I agree. The incomprehensible distances involved and the inhospitable space in between, not to mention our complete lack of conspicuity outwith our atmosphere would make it incredibly difficult to detect us.
And of course that's assuming that technology and benevolent human-style evolution does take the path our science fiction dictates and alien civilisations need or want to scour the universe for us.
The benefits of space travel may very well prove to be negligible.

Again, we just project our self knowledge and our immediate hopes and desires onto beings we have no way of imagining.

meshpig
03-11-2011, 01:28 AM
You're thinking too much like Hollywood. :)

If they are really advanced enough to survive their technology and cross such incredible distances, they will more than likely be benevolent and not show up here to conquer us.

... and that isn't Hollywood?

stiff paper
03-11-2011, 02:26 AM
All I can ever do in response to any suggestions about "Why they might do this" or "They would probably think that" or "What if they just didn't think like that?" is to return over and over to the numbers:

a) Millions of them.
b) And every single one of them decided that, did they?

Iain
03-11-2011, 05:47 AM
All I can ever do in response to any suggestions about "Why they might do this" or "They would probably think that" or "What if they just didn't think like that?" is to return over and over to the numbers:

a) Millions of them.
b) And every single one of them decided that, did they?

Well, to go back to the points I alluded to before, I think you are making some big assumptions here by talking in such narrow specifics.
Firstly, that interstellar travel is possible and that many advanced species will want to undertake it and, secondly, that of all the billions of other systems out there, we should have been a port of call before now.

The 'numbers' argument goes both ways and would most likely make us a rather new and insignificant attraction.

stiff paper
03-11-2011, 06:56 AM
Oh, I don't think they'd necessarily have called in if they're out there. (Or maybe they called in 25,000 years ago and thought "Nah. Monkeys. Let's come back in 50,000 years and see where they're up to." I mean, who could know?) I just think that we should be seeing some evidence that they're communicating with each other and have been doing for the past... oh, I don't know... 30 million years (?)

I'm quite a big fan of lex parsimoniae, and it seems to me that "We can't find anything. Nothing at all" suggests something fairly straightforward and robust by way of explanation.

(And I'm not assuming that interstellar travel is possible at all. Please. We may disagree on other things but I expect we'd both be able to agree that when I wrote "Maybe faster than light travel is actually, fundamentally impossible" I probably didn't mean "FTL travel is definitely possible.")

Iain
03-11-2011, 07:23 AM
I'm quite a big fan of lex parsimoniae, and it seems to me that "We can't find anything. Nothing at all" suggests something fairly straightforward and robust by way of explanation.


More of an Everything Everything fan myself but I agree with your point.

I just don't believe we are entirely capable of picking up on something that may be so far away that the actual event would have to have taken place millions of years ago, particularly when we have been searching for radio wave transmissions. Perhaps advanced civilisations quickly bypassed this method?
Its all just talk of course but, as has already been said, we are limited by our own development and the rather grandiose assumption that we have reached some plateau.

And, I know you suggested ftl travel may be impossible but you also said...

"A million years of scientific advance. Just imagine. (And it doesn't have to be a million years, we could pick the ones that had come about up to 3000 years ago... even more of them...)

And none of them, not one, not a single one of millions is detectable or has shown their face or left any detectable trace in any way whatsoever."

which made me think you expected an advanced race to have been here by now.

colkai
03-11-2011, 07:24 AM
I would of thought we'd represent nothing more than a passing curiosity myself.
We are far from anything special when it comes to our behaviour, fundamentally, we are still not dissimilar to cavemen.
Trying to attract mates, achieve status within our "tribes", defending what we see as "ours" and trying to take over that we see as inferior or likely to increase our wealth / status, be that at an individual or county level.

Our ability to "educate" or "convert" other cultures to our ideals would not bode well for playing nice with others. There's enough info on our radio and TV signals for any half-intelligent species to figure that out.

Who'd want to visit the argumentative neighbours when you can go so many other places? :p

safetyman
03-11-2011, 12:08 PM
Try this scenario (I love doing this...): What if an asteroid hadn't struck the Earth and made the dinosaurs extinct (if you believe that theory, of course). I would like to think that there are planets out there teeming with dinosaur-like creatures as we speak. No humans, because the dino is at the top of the food chain. We could call it, "Jurassic Persiai Omicron 5", and have tourists space-shipped in to look in wide wonder.

Nangleator
03-11-2011, 12:18 PM
Absolutely! I believe life is common enough, and the top of the food chain will often be a large, successful carnivore. Science fiction hasn't really scratched the surface of that possibility. No since the pulps, and not too well then, either.

kopperdrake
03-11-2011, 02:24 PM
However the moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat...

unsettling.

LOL - nothing unsettling about it. If it weren't all as it is now, then we wouldn't be here to be unsettled. D'you think the dinosaurs, looking up at a moon larger than the sun, thought to themselves. 'bugger...we're obviously not the chosen ones'? ;)

Aquarian
03-11-2011, 07:25 PM
please... lets not.

I firmly believe that the universe is (simply put) a random ocurrence, devoid of divine intervention... and Id say Im pretty skeptical towards the ideas of the possible interventions of other intelligences, either recently, or far off in the past.

However the moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat...

unsettling.

I think many people have rejected the idea of a "God" force simply because for the last 2k years or so they have been given watered down, manipulated ideas of spiritual teachings that have been used to satisfy the carnal interests of groups of people desiring power and control over others so I personally think it is best to put aside most of what religious dogma has to say.

However, I also cannot accept that a random occurrence could produce such an intricate balance and order that has evolved highly complex life forms for billions of years. Random implies chaos, no order, no system, no direction, and that is simply not the case with nature or the universe. Nature evolves according to set Laws, as long as these laws are satisfied you have growth and development, violate these laws and you will eventually have death and decay.

All things in Nature if given the correct environment and circumstances will heal and repair themselves...put themselves back in proper order so that life may continue. This is an ordering Life Force in continual operation and to observe this in action all you have to do is observe the world around you...it doesn't even have to be Nature, it can be an office, government, a computer network, or one's kitchen. If things are not constantly maintained then they fall apart and soon everything is in chaos, it is exactly the same with the Universe. The "mystical" or "occult" teachings since ancient times have always taught that there are two primary forces in the Universe...a higher ordering Force, and lesser forces of decay and destruction, in ancient times these were termed "demonic" forces, or forces of "evil", and the ordering force was always given a name like...umm...thinking here...oh yes...God, or Ra, or Aum, many names, it doesn't matter what you call it, it's there and it's in continual operation.

If you ask any competent scientist they can tell you all about the mechanics of nature, what chemical operations occur when this is exposed to that or how this or that organism develops or how we crawled out of some ocean and grew legs, started standing upright, making tools, and so on, but they can never explain the force that propelled the organism to develop into the fine machine that today is the human being. They just call it Evolution, another name for God. Occultism is the science and observation of the "unseen", Science is the observation of the "seen", and in order to get a complete picture they both should be given the proper attention, imho.

Okay off the soapbox...

meshpig
03-11-2011, 08:22 PM
Make a list and tell us how many movies use THAT scenario as opposed to invasion. No... NOT Hollywood.

er, 2001, ET, Star Trek "First Contact", Jodie Foster "Contact" et al... the point I'm making is "civilisations" fall mostly by invasion of one sort or another but to what extent would you call earth civilised since it refers more to Empires, Nations, History and the notion of the State??

- In the case of the Aztecs it was a simple rape and pillage by the more "advanced" Spanish for their gold but imagine if this super benevolent advanced mob were like Christian missionaries bringing the wisdom peace and perfection of jesus to the poor and lowly tribes of earth?

The idea that civilisations "advance" and go on advancing is a bit like the avant garde; already a militaristic term. LIke when Microsoft donate computers to third world countries they're pushing MS first and utility second so these super benevolent beings you're talking about already sound somewhat implausible if all life on earth is to be discounted as some other thing not to go by.

They traipse across impossible distances bearing gifts and the solution to all humanities problems... (smirk) guided no less by a star? I think we've already been there:)

meshpig
03-11-2011, 09:06 PM
However, I also cannot accept that a random occurrence could produce such an intricate balance and order that has evolved highly complex life forms for billions of years. Random implies chaos, no order, no system, no direction, and that is simply not the case with nature or the universe. Nature evolves according to set Laws, as long as these laws are satisfied you have growth and development, violate these laws and you will eventually have death and decay.


You've sort of shot yourself in the foot there, so to speak. Even if God is all the order in the universe to begin with that was only for a very brief time and subsequently we can't know what else God had in mind except for how the universe has turned out.

ie. if you break a plate, putting it back together generates more disorder than if you just left it where it is. Ought we not break plates on account of the Creator? Sure, but what about the super massive star that just exploded 6000 light years away... poor old Humpty Dumpty:)

Aquarian
03-11-2011, 09:58 PM
You've sort of shot yourself in the foot there, so to speak. Even if God is all the order in the universe to begin with that was only for a very brief time and subsequently we can't know what else God had in mind except for how the universe has turned out.

ie. if you break a plate, putting it back together generates more disorder than if you just left it where it is. Ought we not break plates on account of the Creator? Sure, but what about the super massive star that just exploded 6000 light years away... poor old Humpty Dumpty:)

I think you missed everything I said, if you re-read it you'd probably get a different picture...the breaking of a plate analogy makes no sense in relation to my post. I simply explained that God is a Force, called Evolution, that is in continual operation and thus was not "only for a very brief time" but is still in operation...I don't expect anyone to agree with me here...just attempting to give a better understanding of what "God" actually is...as far as we can tell anyway :)

My foot is fine by the way, my philosophy is sound and I will be happy to explain any points I made, but of course I probably should be posting that on another forum...a kabbalah forum or something I suspect.

meshpig
03-11-2011, 10:39 PM
Uhmmm... you've named movies that have aliens SHOWING themselves - precisely the opposite of what I said:




2001 - they showed themselves
First Contact - the Vulcans showed themselves
ET - they showed themselves
Contact - they contacted US

See? They will WAIT and let US find THEM - which is what my point was that you apparently misunderstood.

Well, put it this way; in the Old Testament did God find Moses or did Moses find God?

- God at least burnt a bush so Moses had some idea, so what are they waiting for?:)

meshpig
03-11-2011, 11:22 PM
I think you missed everything I said, if you re-read it you'd probably get a different picture...the breaking of a plate analogy makes no sense in relation to my post. I simply explained that God is a Force, called Evolution, that is in continual operation and thus was not "only for a very brief time" but is still in operation...I don't expect anyone to agree with me here...just attempting to give a better understanding of what "God" actually is...as far as we can tell anyway :)

My foot is fine by the way, my philosophy is sound and I will be happy to explain any points I made, but of course I probably should be posting that on another forum...a kabbalah forum or something I suspect.

Nah, here is fine. Glad your foot is OK too but if God is still an operator where, how and why?

- What kind of force is God?
- Do you mean the same God who "speaks" via available literature?
- If so why would God create such a big place for the sake of one animal on one tiny planet amongst trillions of species and have that as his sole purpose?
-If god is evolution why do some Mosquitos transmit Malaria and why earthquakes...?
- If God had half an idea... here's a modern essay on the thoughts of Job from the Old Testament. The first recorded complaint against the old bastard:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answer_to_Job

meshpig
03-11-2011, 11:50 PM
And that has to do with the multitude of Hollywood movies how?

The story has already been told pretty obviously. Star Wars for example; once all 6 episodes were done it went nowhere.

Aquarian
03-12-2011, 12:33 AM
I'm just going to hammer these out real quick.


Nah, here is fine. Glad your foot is OK too but if God is still an operator where, how and why?

I never said God was an operator, I said it was a force in continual operation...two different things. How? through the process of evolution. Where? Everywhere life exists.



- What kind of force is God? A constructive force, a balancing force, a creating force, etc etc.


- Do you mean the same God who "speaks" via available literature? I've never seen any literature talk but most scriptures where written by individuals who became enlightened, and usually wrote in allegory and parables in an attempt to explain abstract ideas not easily understood by un-enlightened peoples.


- If so why would God create such a big place for the sake of one animal on one tiny planet amongst trillions of species and have that as his sole purpose? Just because you've never seen life outside planet earth does not mean it doesn't exist. Where did I say God created everything for humans...that seems like a selfish, self-centered, self-important notion don't you think?


-If god is evolution why do some Mosquitos transmit Malaria and why earthquakes...? You have science to answer those questions for you...but on a side note by overcoming obstacles and challenges we grow as individuals and as a species.


- If God had half an idea... here's a modern essay on the thoughts of Job from the Old Testament. The first recorded complaint against the old bastard:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answer_to_Job

I doubt that's the first recorded complaint, and I haven't read the book...but I would guess he is criticizing the popular notions of God, and I would probably have to agree with him.

Now how about those aliens? Do you think there would be sci-fi blockbuster's if aliens just sat around and did nothing? There's a reason why Independence Day was a bigger hit than Contact.

meshpig
03-12-2011, 01:44 AM
This is what is known as babbling. :screwy:

Face it, Hollywood makes movies where aliens INVADE, not wait around for us to find them. Your assertion that my premise was ALSO Hollywood was incorrect. Own up to it. :)

Personally I could care less what Hollywood does or doesn't do John Malkovich John Malkovich so OK, I own it. Yay the Oscars...

As for "finding them"... get a grip, THEY aren't there and thankfully:)

meshpig
03-12-2011, 02:56 AM
I'm just going to hammer these out real quick.



I never said God was an operator, I said it was a force in continual operation...two different things. How? through the process of evolution. Where? Everywhere life exists.

A constructive force, a balancing force, a creating force, etc etc.
I've never seen any literature talk but most scriptures where written by individuals who became enlightened, and usually wrote in allegory and parables in an attempt to explain abstract ideas not easily understood by un-enlightened peoples.
Just because you've never seen life outside planet earth does not mean it doesn't exist. Where did I say God created everything for humans...that seems like a selfish, self-centered, self-important notion don't you think?
You have science to answer those questions for you...but on a side note by overcoming obstacles and challenges we grow as individuals and as a species.


I doubt that's the first recorded complaint, and I haven't read the book...but I would guess he is criticizing the popular notions of God, and I would probably have to agree with him.

Now how about those aliens? Do you think there would be sci-fi blockbuster's if aliens just sat around and did nothing? There's a reason why Independence Day was a bigger hit than Contact.

You'll have to talk to Megalodon about Independence Day v Contact. I mean what kinda aliens would they be if they sat around doin' nothin indeed? Bring 'em on, maybe we'll enslave them first.

meshpig
03-12-2011, 03:15 AM
As I said... your "observation" that my premise was also Hollywood is incorrect. :)

Edit. "They aren't there"? Glad to know that you know EVERYTHING. The arrogance is astounding......

When we find them what do you suppose we should say? Hi, um we're here, ok so like right now we're like all having a really great time here on earth right now I'll send you a pic and and like so, well like I'm just going to go right ahead and have a great time and no, honest mister we don't have any rare elements or anything honest mr. Diamonds, no, no never heard of them... gold? no, we're just having a really great time right now can I offer you a job in a fast food outlet or maybe a position as an international bureaucrat with the united nations.

I mean can you imagine?

Iain
03-12-2011, 03:34 AM
If you ask any competent scientist they can tell you all about the mechanics of nature, what chemical operations occur when this is exposed to that or how this or that organism develops or how we crawled out of some ocean and grew legs, started standing upright, making tools, and so on, but they can never explain the force that propelled the organism to develop into the fine machine that today is the human being. They just call it Evolution, another name for God.

Evolution is another name for God!??!! Interesting statement! Kind of puts you right in the middle of two schools of thought.
Does natural survival of the fittest not come into all this 'order'?

And really, why the need to answer difficult questions or startling coincidences with "[a] God must have done it."? I can understand ancient peoples doing this but today it obviously comes from the spoon-fed-religious-education notion of thinking that we have reached a knowledge ceiling and any unanswered science question is now unanswerable. Kind of pathetic if you think about it.

stiff paper
03-12-2011, 08:00 AM
I'm just going to hammer these out real quick.

Must... resist... urge... to... vehemently... hammer them... all... back in.

Aquarian
03-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Evolution is another name for God!??!! Interesting statement! Kind of puts you right in the middle of two schools of thought.
Does natural survival of the fittest not come into all this 'order'?


Are you saying there is no order in nature, that everything is all chaos? Everything discovered by science points to order, from the tiniest molecular structure to solar systems, all working in a orderly and balanced manner that has been going for eons. Throw something out of balance and you produce catastrophic results.

Why wouldn't natural selection, "survival of the fittest", fit in with what I wrote? I think because I use the word "God" it conjures up all kinds of religious ideas that you are attaching to my personal ideas. I'm not talking about religions.

Aquarian
03-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Must... resist... urge... to... vehemently... hammer them... all... back in.

Why resist? Do you vehemently hammer back every original thought that comes along?

Aquarian
03-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Sounds to me like you are a Deist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

And that point of view (IMO) is quite a bit more plausible than the typical religious POV. :thumbsup:

Deism is quite similar actually, but my religion follows the Rosicrucian Fraternity (www.soul.org (http://www.soul.org)) and I agree that the scientific study of nature is one way to know God so yeah it's pretty similar.

It is always interesting when the latest scientific discoveries are inline with hermetic philosophies. For instance it's been taught for centuries that matter is composed of varying states of vibration and these days we have string theory, it's kind of a discovery/rediscovery thing going on but I better shut up before the arrows start flying again :)

meshpig
03-13-2011, 12:08 AM
Yup.... :screwy:

Can't wrap your head around it.... huh? :)

Oh well, no matter. You don't get Hollywood movies that have aliens sitting around WAITING for us to find them. Perhaps instead of rambling on you will admit that your assertion (that my premise was Hollywood too) was wrong. Though... I doubt it. :D

I admit that it isn't a typical Hollywood story and that indeed you don't see Hollywood movies where aliens are waiting for us to find them but that doesn't make it a better than Hollywood idea. It may as well be Hollywood...David Bowie sang a song about it the 60's;

"there's a star man
waiting in the sky.
He'd like to come and meet us
but he thinks he'll blow our mind"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muMcWMKPEWQ

- But where's the evidence and the logic in the first place for there being an ideal conclusion out there to the problems facing earth? It's a fiction at best.

meshpig
03-13-2011, 12:49 AM
For instance it's been taught for centuries that matter is composed of varying states of vibration and these days we have string theory, it's kind of a discovery/rediscovery thing going on but I better shut up before the arrows start flying again :)

That would would be nice if it were true.

serge
03-13-2011, 06:31 AM
@Aquarian,

Why does your religion believe there's only one God?

glebe digital
03-13-2011, 08:05 AM
Aquarian - Most interesting to see the direction you've been seeking, but do watch out for these RC brotherhoods.
Even the original 'Fama' states that the RCs will never openly broadcast themselves.....so watch out for 'authentic' fraternities with websites.......a 'secret society' that allows itself to become known isn't very secret, now is it.

Have you read Francis Yates?

cresshead
03-13-2011, 11:08 AM
i did write a reply but i got bored by the content reading it back...life is too short to even edit this!

meshpig
03-14-2011, 12:25 AM
Who said anything about evidence? Do you honestly think you REALLY "know" anything about what is really "out there?" You think that you KNOW that there are or are not other lifeforms? It's just a guess at best - for the time being. And as for logic... when you have no idea WHAT is "out there," the only logic we have is based on what has already happened on earth with advanced cultures "invading" more primitive ones.


Of course there are other lifeforms on other planets but what has happened on earth can't be dismissed as not the entire picture because it's very much the picture in the geological, chemical, biological, social and political sense. Things evolve the way they do on earth because the same process is happening "out there" in the rest of the universe. Suns just don't spring from nowhere, neither do solar systems and planets. The light which just reflected off your screen is only minutes out of thousands of years escaping the gravity of the sun, and as old as the universe itself.

- I don't see a lot of use in positing abstract beings as real "aliens" just by saying it's possible for non-carbon and silicone based life to exist therefore an "advanced civilisation" could be breathing methane and eating hydrogen sulphide somewhere "out there". You have to ask yourself how something as complex as species Homo Sapien could evolve in such energy limited environments considering earth has supported a billion billion different species so far one of which turned out to be humans.

It isn't a matter of "really knowing" anything rather what is known to be "out there" looks like so and from that you can draw logical conclusions. One very simple deduction is that even if there were an identical earth in another dimension somewhere, the likelihood of it being a perfect world is very if not, exceedingly unlikely.

meshpig
03-14-2011, 12:48 AM
Have you read Francis Yates?

Yeah, whatever happened to forgetting?? Numbers seem to remember themselves anyway.

glebe digital
03-14-2011, 03:35 AM
The Rosicrucian's have been "advertising" themselves for a LONG time. How does "secret" even enter into it? Yet "another" conspiracy? :eek:

You KNOW the RCs have been the ones doing the advertising?

Can't help thinking of 'sons of the desert':
http://www.cinemotions.com/data/films/0702/91/2/photo-Laurel-et-Hardy-Les-compagnons-de-la-nouba-Sons-of-the-Desert-1933-2.jpg

The word 'secret' is relevant because it's the modus operandi of hermetic cults.....so a hermetic group pasting itself on the internet is a contradiction in terms IMO.

RebelHill
03-14-2011, 04:05 AM
It is always interesting when the latest scientific discoveries are inline with hermetic philosophies. For instance it's been taught for centuries that matter is composed of varying states of vibration and these days we have string theory,

Personally Im not sure how "interesting" it really is. Afterall if you look over all the multitude of ideas, myths and theories that have occurred to man over the past several thousand years, just about every base you can think of is covered to at least some vague degree.

So the fact that someone somewhere had an idea that just so happens to line up with scientific discovery doesn't necessarily imply that they were onto some deper "truth"... just that they made a lucky guess, and lets face it, when you look at all the different beliefs, there are far more that are contradictory to things known to be true than there are similarities.

Kind of like some theological roulette.

imho.

meshpig
03-14-2011, 04:55 AM
The word 'secret' is relevant because it's the modus operandi of hermetic cults.....so a hermetic group pasting itself on the internet is a contradiction in terms IMO.

Metaphysics just never seems to go away. Forget Plato http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-metaphysics/

but no linky for these hermits "AMORC, for North America. Develop your inner wisdom through our home study system of metaphysics and mysticism." :)

glebe digital
03-14-2011, 07:31 AM
meshpig - When I hear the words 'home study system' I reach for my catapult..... :hey:

meshpig
03-14-2011, 08:14 AM
meshpig - When I hear the words 'home study system' I reach for my catapult..... :hey:

Indeed, "Wenn ich Heimstudium höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!" (Hermann Göring)... I remove the safety catch from my browningkkk:)

alexos
03-14-2011, 09:24 AM
Indeed, "Wenn ich Heimstudium höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!" (Hermann Göring)... I remove the safety catch from my browningkkk:)

Little known fact: that's not an old Hermann's original. He stole it from some play I can't be arsed to look up now... but it's rather amusing that his probably most famous quote isn't actually his. Poetic justice of some sort, I suppose...

ADP.

meshpig
03-15-2011, 12:34 AM
Little known fact: that's not an old Hermann's original. He stole it from some play I can't be arsed to look up now... but it's rather amusing that his probably most famous quote isn't actually his. Poetic justice of some sort, I suppose...

ADP.

Yes you're right, I didn't know that:); Hanns Johst; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Johst

- Isn't "when I hear the word culture, I pull out my gun" how it's actually gone down for mr. ulgy, bully-boy Hermann though?

glebe digital
03-15-2011, 08:01 AM
Kants revenge?

Paper:
Special Relativity and Perception: The Singular Time of Psychology and Physics (http://www.theassc.org/documents/special_relativity_and_perception_the_singular_tim e_of_psychology_and_physics)

Abstract:
"The Special Theory of Relativity (STR) holds sway as a theory of time due to its apparently successful predictive structure regarding time-related phenomena such as the increased life spans of mesons or retarded clocks on jets circling the globe, and due to the relativization of simultaneity intrinsic to this theoretical structure. Yet the very structure of the theory demands that such very real physical effects be construed as non-ontological. The scope and depth of this contradiction is explored and, if these time-changes are indeed viewed as ontological effects within STR, an additional problem for the theory is introduced in the context of perception. The origins of this confused situation arise as a result of the fact that STR is an expression of a classical, spatial metaphysic – a framework that equally underpins current discussions of the hard problem. This metaphysic holds an inadequate concept of time and a failure to acknowledge the reality of simultaneous causal flows. These problems are developed against the background of an alternative, namely, the temporal metaphysic of Bergson – a framework that provides a profoundly different base for viewing both relativity and consciousness."

MaDDoX
03-15-2011, 01:28 PM
However the moon, fitting perfectly over the sun, and always facing the same side toward us, but doing both only at this particular slice of the solar systems life time is the one thing, the one "coincidence" I find somehwat... unsettling.

Common feelings. Yet I find quite funny the fact that so many people feel unsettled by any hint that there might be something else out there than mere matter as we know it, and what our repetitively retracting science consider plausible.

Nothing convinces me that if we were guinea pigs in a laboratory carefully set up to properly nurture and shelter us for years, and we had never seen our caretakers, we wouldn't be inclined to think we're all there is. With the occasional glimpse out of the cage of course, making some of us stunned by how those huge things out there are so misteriously aligned.

It's all in the doubt, even real science, any firm convincement is presumptuous and ill-informed.

meshpig
03-16-2011, 12:59 AM
Kants revenge?

Paper:
Special Relativity and Perception: The Singular Time of Psychology and Physics (http://www.theassc.org/documents/special_relativity_and_perception_the_singular_tim e_of_psychology_and_physics)

Abstract:
"The Special Theory of Relativity (STR) holds sway as a theory of time due to its apparently successful predictive structure regarding time-related phenomena such as the increased life spans of mesons or retarded clocks on jets circling the globe, and due to the relativization of simultaneity intrinsic to this theoretical structure. Yet the very structure of the theory demands that such very real physical effects be construed as non-ontological. The scope and depth of this contradiction is explored and, if these time-changes are indeed viewed as ontological effects within STR, an additional problem for the theory is introduced in the context of perception. The origins of this confused situation arise as a result of the fact that STR is an expression of a classical, spatial metaphysic – a framework that equally underpins current discussions of the hard problem. This metaphysic holds an inadequate concept of time and a failure to acknowledge the reality of simultaneous causal flows. These problems are developed against the background of an alternative, namely, the temporal metaphysic of Bergson – a framework that provides a profoundly different base for viewing both relativity and consciousness."

The "abstract" is a bit windy out of context but the article is interesting.

Dare I say the very idea of "aliens" and "advanced civilisations" as they are is firmly rooted in the time of "classical science", as it were.

- "2.0 Bergson and Time
Let us begin with the heart of the difference between Bergson and Einstein. The “microbes” in Bergson‟s comments are an index, in essence an index to the process of thought leading to the “objective” that Einstein must take to its logical conclusion. Bergson, in introducing them, had asked just what is the concept of “proximity” or “neighboring events” used in relativity to relate clocks to events? A microbe consciousness questions whether the clock and lightning bolt of the system of some observer are “neighboring.” A micro-microbe questions the microbe's judgment of what is “neighboring”; a micro-micro-microbe does the same to the micro-microbe, and so on. Logically, we are forced to take this to its conclusion. There can be no accepted judgment of neighboring (and therefore of simultaneity) as we descend scales until we end at the mathematical point. The mathematical point is the essence of complete abstraction. The question is, is time found at all at this abstract point-event?"