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jamesl
03-06-2011, 03:44 PM
...what are they? I'm intrigued and am on the fence about upgrading (been working exclusively with proprietary renderer from BlueSky for the past year), but if the VPR can do what fPrime can't (shader plugins, post process effects, etc), then I'm in. Can I actually view Sasquatch in VPR?? HD Instance? Core is interesting, but I'm more worried about what it will break in my pipeline than what it will provide. Please respond if you've used and tested LW 10 in the manner I've described. I've played with the discovery edition and it's nice. Just wanting some more info.

thanks

Jamie Lloyd
Effects Animator/TD
Blue Sky Studios

nickdigital
03-06-2011, 04:00 PM
I believe HDInstance shows up. I'm not sure about Sasquatch though. If it doesn't, the hope is that Worley and NewTek are in communication to open that up. Hypervoxels show up which is nice.

jamesl
03-06-2011, 04:37 PM
But in general, shader and pixel plugins work, like Shadow Designer, X-Dof, etc? If so, that's very cool. I think it might be a good idea to own the last completely backwards-compatible version of LW before they go Core on us. I've owned/upgraded from 1.0 to 9.6.
Thanks for the response!

stiff paper
03-06-2011, 04:44 PM
Sasquatch is a post-process, isn't it? That probably means it can't show up, short of rewriting the way it works...

JonW
03-06-2011, 04:48 PM
Here UVs show for the leafs. But maybe there is an answer for this.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117008

If one can use the VPR image & the customer isn't going to notice, then it's not a problem!

jamesl
03-06-2011, 05:07 PM
That's kind of the point of my question... if VPR has the same limitations as fPrime, then I'll stick to LW9.6 and fPrime. Does VPR have a tighter connection to LW? I haven't seen a list of limitations, and I can't test my plugins with the discovery edition.

JonW
03-06-2011, 05:36 PM
I have found LW10 doesn't crash nearly as much as 9.6 (Modeler. Layout was ok), but maybe you are ok with this. From my point of view this along is worth the upgrade.

Danner
03-06-2011, 05:55 PM
VPR looks a lot closer to LWs render than Fprime
VPR doesn't see clipmaps.
VPR is much faster than Fprime in most cases.
VPR sees supbatches fine but it slows down a lot if you use them instead of egular geometry

This are just some observations, not a complete nor deep comparison.

Captain Obvious
03-06-2011, 06:34 PM
VPR doesn't see clipmaps.
Seriously? That limits its usefulness somewhat, doesn't it?

toeknee
03-06-2011, 07:34 PM
I am pretty no pixel filter work. However many of the shaders do.

jamesl
03-06-2011, 07:52 PM
I haven't noticed VPR being faster than fPrime, and I don't have a problem with the quality of fPrime's output. In fact, I'll probably still use fPrime for batch rendering... but if there are things I can preview with VPR that fPrime doesn't handle, it may be worth it.

prometheus
03-07-2011, 01:24 AM
VPR looks a lot closer to LWs render than Fprime
VPR doesn't see clipmaps.
VPR is much faster than Fprime in most cases.
VPR sees supbatches fine but it slows down a lot if you use them instead of egular geometry

This are just some observations, not a complete nor deep comparison.


Seriously? That limits its usefulness somewhat, doesn't it?


Vpr isnīt much faster in most cases, VPR has in most cases a much slower initial progressive renderer than fprime.
However You shouldnīt be surprised if that improves further along the development.
VPR renders most and many other stuff more correctly and things that fprime canīt handle.
VPR can render...turbulence fluids(fprime can not),( hypervoxels -much faster than fprime)
Volumetric llights (fprime can not)

Vpr can render most of the shaders wich fprime can not, and also render materials more correctly matching to final render.

Another thing that is useful ..at least for me, that is the ability to tweak the lighting and materials with VPR and having imported geometry from solidworks with vertex normal smoothing, using perspective cam..Fprime can not handle that unless using true artīs trueobj importer.

I donīt think VPR can render fibre fx or sasquatch yet.
VPR renders fog
VPR doesnīt render lensflares ..I hope they get to that very soon thou.

as for image processing I believe that you can have CORE rendering bloom effects, but I havenīt tested yet.

Fprime has strong values in speed and workflow parts, such as picking surfaces fast and easy, the zooming in without loss of resolution pausing of the viewer and the final progressive renderer in order to pick up and refine images.

VPR is pretty neat thou together with the make preview animation, so you can quickly get a preview animation with almost full render quality.

whatīs more to render, yes skytracer render faster than viper even thou skytracer needs to be dropped and replaced with an environment system with volumetrics similar to or such as ogo taiki (wich I heard renders in VPR too)

Ozone4 and 5 is also supposed to render in VPR although I donīt know how good and fast.

Did I mention photometric ies lights?

Edit..I forgot to mentioned..the clipmap is supposed to be fixed for the next release.
Michael

Lewis
03-07-2011, 01:46 AM
VPR doesnīt render lensflares ..I hope they get to that very soon thou.


Turn on Overlay in VPR options and it'll render flares but only at active window same as for HVoxels and Photometric lights i.e. you can't have it on multiple views at once.

Adding to list wuld be that VPR also don't render 2-point polys(splines).

prometheus
03-07-2011, 02:58 AM
Turn on Overlay in VPR options and it'll render flares but only at active window same as for HVoxels and Photometric lights i.e. you can't have it on multiple views at once.

Adding to list wuld be that VPR also don't render 2-point polys(splines).

No..that is not true, the VPR only shows the openg gl flares wich differs from the final render, and that is quite alot, no star filter etc.
I soo would like to have that for my nebulae images, wich are fully and fast tweakable otherwise with hypervoxels and volumetric lights in sprite mode.
When I get my a..s going to do the video break down youīll understand.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114297&highlight=nebula

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90171&d=1290343651

Michael

Lewis
03-07-2011, 04:25 AM
No..that is not true, the VPR only shows the openg gl flares wich differs from the final render, and that is quite alot, no star filter etc.
I soo would like to have that for my nebulae images, wich are fully and fast tweakable otherwise with hypervoxels and volumetric lights in sprite mode.
When I get my a..s going to do the video break down youīll understand.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114297&highlight=nebula

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90171&d=1290343651

Michael

Don't worry I understand but VPR is not for final renders anyway (unlike FPRIME) so that's what is different. And that's not only difference to F9/F10 either so only thing you can is send feature requests.

prometheus
03-07-2011, 05:05 AM
I think newtek has on the agenda to get as much as possible to render in the vpr, so Iīm not sure if Itīs necessary to feature request the lens flare vpr render feature.

yes Im aware of that Itīs not a final renderer but for tweaks It would enhance workflow speed if It can render lensflares in vpr, the main priority
now would to get it render as fast it can and as correctly possible.

then whats on the priority list is up to the programmers I guess.

Glow, bloom, corona, lens flares, fiberfx..hard to say...I beleive bloom is already there in Core at least.

Michael

Danner
03-07-2011, 01:32 PM
The speed of VPR is very scene dependant, but I do find it quite a bit faster than Fprime for what I do (ArchViz) I often have it full screen with radiosity on and it takes a couple seconds to get to it's final look. I still use Fprime for surface picking tho. I turn it on for a bit, pause it, and leave it minimized till I need to select a surface to tweak.

wrench
03-07-2011, 01:46 PM
VPR can see FiberFX but only in one viewport. You don't see Motion Blur or Depth of Field. It's very useful for setting up scenes that you'll later render more than as a final render in my experience.

B

prometheus
03-08-2011, 03:01 AM
VPR can see FiberFX but only in one viewport. You don't see Motion Blur or Depth of Field. It's very useful for setting up scenes that you'll later render more than as a final render in my experience.

B

I just canīt get any fiberfx to show in vpr in 64 bit, is it only working in 32 bit for the moment or did I miss something?

Michael

wrench
03-08-2011, 03:25 AM
And is your first (or only viewport) a Camera View?

B

prometheus
03-08-2011, 04:30 AM
And is your first (or only viewport) a Camera View?

B

yes it is, only one viewport and camera view, and all is activated and viewable in open gl, but not in VPR...I thought, strangly now it works, but Im not sure what was going on, I opened the preference panel and checked and unchecked some things, and it suddenly works...weird.

And it works in perspective view too.


Michael

safetyman
03-09-2011, 05:43 AM
My view is that this is a first cut at an amazing new feature -- give it some time to cook (ha! good pun). Maybe it doesn't have all the features we'd like just yet, but it will improve and mature.

dwburman
03-11-2011, 06:18 PM
VPR is a View Port Renderer so it won't correctly render a camera type that doesn't display in the camera viewport correctly. These are the Tilt-Shift camera, Advanced camera, Some 3rd Party cameras, and maybe Real Lens cameras.

VPR shows FiberFX when it is in Volume mode.

wrench
03-12-2011, 04:37 PM
But look what it can do (from Prometheus' Ozone 5 thread): Pic (http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93593&d=1299962741)

B

dwburman
03-12-2011, 04:40 PM
The fact that VPR renders most, if not all, volumetrics is fantastic. :)

prometheus
03-12-2011, 04:45 PM
But look what it can do (from Prometheus' Ozone 5 thread): Pic (http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93593&d=1299962741)

B

:)


VPR needs a rip off option to a preview window only while keeping the others intact, and I would like to see a force stop VPR update option while you are moving objects in other viewports, otherwise it continuosly updates and halts so moving around effectivly will not work, as it is right now..itīs to slow to move things around.
the force stop VPR should be optional, and It should kick in once you grab and move objects in other viewports, and while you move that object, the VPR shouldnīt update ..Until you release that move of the object.

Vueīs viewports works a little like that, and I believe fprime too.

Michael

prometheus
03-12-2011, 04:49 PM
The fact that VPR renders most, if not all, volumetrics is fantastic. :)

Absolutly..what it can render is sweet so far and Im all exited, but if they can work on some of what I mentioned above and improve initial speed refinement, and get a decent enviroment plugin (ozone isnīt there yet)
I wouldnīt leave the computer:)

You canīt really get the same fast workflow with setting up skies and previewing a scene within ozone and VPR as you can with vue itself..
But if they keep working and works together with e-on, it might happen someday.

Ivé always promoted a true intergrated plugin like something with ogo taiki or something completly new if they ever could pull that off, vueīs ozone isnīt getting much better with the releases.

I hold Vueīs previewer for volumetrics to be the Master...except..no fluids thou:)


Michael

prometheus
03-12-2011, 05:53 PM
hereīs an example again showing that Ozone 5 and VPR doesnīt
work quite fully Yet!

Objectīs turning black in VPR..
Final render looks ok thou.

Regarding Ozone5.. Itīs having issues still with not working fully with hypervoxels (clouds does not obscure the voxels) and ozone volumetric sunlight doesnīt cast ray shadows when objects are in front of the sunlight (It does that correctly within vue)

Please forgive me the advanced sketchup poly model, and the texturing:)
Michael

dwburman
03-12-2011, 06:47 PM
I'd like to see manual Pause and Refresh buttons for VPR. :)

jasonwestmas
03-12-2011, 08:40 PM
I'm pretty sure volumetrics render faster in VPR than they do in Fprime preview.

jasonwestmas
03-13-2011, 10:37 AM
And of course the color space advantages are only in vpr and LW previews. I really like the ability to tumble my view in the perspective viewport too.

jamesl
03-13-2011, 09:11 PM
So I've been able to play with lw10 in demo mode to see what the new VPR display is like, and I will say that I'm impressed. The one problem I've had, though, is that it makes the rest of the interface rather sluggish. It seems that fPrime defers to anything else that is going on and then steals proc cycles when it can, while VPR takes precedence over anything else. This makes for a frustrating workflow. Also VPR is slower to update, sometimes taking several seconds to respond, but quicker to a more resolved state than fPrime. It's an excellent effort, I must admit, especially since it is more integrated into the core renderer. But I wouldn't give up fPrime for the VPR. fPrime's batch mode has kept me from having to invest in renderfarms for years now.

That said, there is plenty in lw10 to suggest upgrading is worth the investment. Linear color space is probably worth the price alone. Hope Core is coming along because I'll be checking it out soon enough.

Thanks to everyone who responded!

j

wrench
03-14-2011, 03:41 AM
Our pleasure but don't forget that FPrime can't show you the linear workflow, reducing its usefulness.

B

jasonwestmas
03-14-2011, 09:55 AM
So I've been able to play with lw10 in demo mode to see what the new VPR display is like, and I will say that I'm impressed. The one problem I've had, though, is that it makes the rest of the interface rather sluggish. It seems that fPrime defers to anything else that is going on and then steals proc cycles when it can, while VPR takes precedence over anything else. This makes for a frustrating workflow. Also VPR is slower to update, sometimes taking several seconds to respond, but quicker to a more resolved state than fPrime. It's an excellent effort, I must admit, especially since it is more integrated into the core renderer. But I wouldn't give up fPrime for the VPR. fPrime's batch mode has kept me from having to invest in renderfarms for years now.

That said, there is plenty in lw10 to suggest upgrading is worth the investment. Linear color space is probably worth the price alone. Hope Core is coming along because I'll be checking it out soon enough.

Thanks to everyone who responded!

j

I have a quad core processor and the work-flow is not sluggish till I start deforming geometry. But I guess it depends on how many polygons you are dealing with in Ogl.

jwiede
03-18-2011, 10:43 PM
Our pleasure but don't forget that FPrime can't show you the linear workflow, reducing its usefulness.
This isn't entirely correct. FPrime doesn't integrate with LW10's LCS support, that is correct, but adding the G2 plugin does allow FPrime to support LWF in previews and renders (among many other nice features G2 adds to FPrime and LW).

jamesl
03-20-2011, 01:06 AM
That's good to know, as I do own a G2 license. Thanks!

wrench
03-21-2011, 04:39 AM
@jwiede so it *was* entirely accurate in the sense that FPrime can't do it unless you have another $200 plugin? ;)

B

jasonwestmas
03-21-2011, 08:26 AM
@jwiede so it *was* entirely accurate in the sense that FPrime can't do it unless you have another $200 plugin? ;)

B

Good to know your options though. I had forgotten all about the gamma stuff in G2.

Silkrooster
03-21-2011, 10:24 PM
Here is a comparison of a render and VPR. Render is the small window.

Danner
03-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Is draft mode on? some shortcuts are taken in favor of speed in draft mode, radiosity bounces being one of them and I imagine reflection/refraction samples is another

evolross
03-22-2011, 11:28 AM
VPR doesn't render lines. So no wireframe/edge effects from the Edges tab. I find that FPrime is too crashy using the node editor. And the fact that without G2 it doesn't support a linear workflow was a show stopper to me. I'm really happy with VPR so far. It's going to get better too.

Silkrooster
03-22-2011, 12:29 PM
Is draft mode on? some shortcuts are taken in favor of speed in draft mode, radiosity bounces being one of them and I imagine reflection/refraction samples is another

Yeah, it was. I didn't even know there was a draft mode. Boy did that slow it down. lol.

evolross
03-22-2011, 12:43 PM
The "draft mode" is like a shortcut that automatically turns down rays, bounces, AA and different rendering checkboxes for the VPR only, so it no longer follows what is set for LW's F9. It's basically a shortcut to increase speed at the sacrifice of quality. In future versions there may be more flexibility than a single shortcut button.