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dwburman
09-30-2003, 04:50 PM
Hi, we just got our G5 at work and I thought I'd post my thoughts/first impressions.

The unit itself... It's bigger and heavier than I pictured it. It really is quiet. Aside from a little extra fan noise upon first start the loudest part is the DVD drive. It is sitting on the desk next to me and I can hear little squeaky (hmmmm maybe the wrong word) high pitched sounds when it's doing stuff like shrinking a window or when I mouse over the dock.

The Apps...
After Effects seems very fast. I didn't do a benchmark or anything but it's very noticably faster than the dual 500Mhz G4 I'm used to (I'd hope so)

Lightwave: I did a few tests comparing the G5 to my Xeon. Actually, I did the same test twice on each machine.

Scene: raytrace.lws
Segment memory Limit: 20Mb
Show rendering in progress: OFF

Xeon 1 Threads: 1m54s
Xeon 2 Threads: 1m46s

G5 1 Threads: 1m54s
G5 2 Threads: 1m15s

The Machine Specs:

G5 Dual 2Ghz
1 GB RAM
1000Mhz FSB

My Xeon:
Homebuilt (Mobo, Case, Pwr Supply, CPU, RAM - were bought as a combo from monarchcomputer.com)
SuperMicro Super X5DA8 - Only 1 CPU is installed
Single 2.66 Ghz Xeon (HyperThreading: ON) WinXP-Pro
1 GB RAM
533Mhz FSB

Obviously, this isn't an extensive test or review and the G5 is a new piece of hardware and Newtek hasn't announced any optimizations for it yet.

Overall it's a pretty snappy system. I'm glad I get to use it (but I'm also glad I didn't have to pay for it :) I'm looking forward to using it some more.

js33
09-30-2003, 04:56 PM
Interesting that the Dual Mac is really no/not much faster than a single old 2.66Ghz Xeon.

Cheers,
JS

sketchyjay
09-30-2003, 05:02 PM
wow,
thanks for posting those. I'm still waiting for our unit to come in.

Can you do a few other render tests to see if there is any difference.

Also how much do you think you sent on your Xeon?

Jay

dwburman
09-30-2003, 05:13 PM
The parts I bought cost me around $1,350 US - I reused drives, keyboards etc. The Motherboard was one of the more expensive ones ($600) because it has a built in Ultra320 SCSI controller. The board can take 12GB of RAM... but of course, Windoze can't use more than 4 (and some say 2GB reliably... at least with the VT3)

At any rate a G5 render farm wouldn't be cost effective at this time :)

As for the G5 After Effects thing. It totally plowed through a heavy 'glow' operation and was pretty darn fast with radial and gaussian blur. I haven't tried anything too complex yet, but I imagine the 1GB of RAM will start to be a limitation.

BTW DFX+ on my XEON is pretty fast too. Not hard numbers though. Lightwave is the only app that is on both machines.

More Benchmarks:

Radiosity_ReflectiveThings.lws
G5] 1 thread: 51.5s
G5] 2 thread: 37s
XE] 1 thread: 56s
XE] 2 thread: 54.4s

RadiosityThings.lws
G5] 1 thread: 4.5s
G5] 2 thread: 3.2s
XE] 1 thread: 4.4s
XE] 2 thread: 4.8s

DOF.lws
G5] 1 thread: 10.3s
G5] 2 thread: 9.3s
XE] 1 thread: 7.7s
XE] 2 thread: 8.7s

G5 = Dual 2 Ghz Apple G5
XE = Single 2.66 Xeon CPU with Hyper Threading

Two threads aren't always better than one.
The G5 does better on the radiosity things while the Xeon does the DOF faster. I don't know why... I'm not a technician :)

mlinde
09-30-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by dwburman
The G5 does better on the radiosity things while the Xeon does the DOF faster. I don't know why... I'm not a technician :)

I've seen that result fairly consistently, makes you wonder what it is about DOF that the G5 chews on. I also wonder how much faster 2 Xeons with HT on would be, since HT actually helps a single processor perform more like 2. Would it be twice as fast again, or is there some limit to performance increase?

extrabyte
09-30-2003, 09:09 PM
Just wanted to let you know that Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to 8 Gig of ram. And in order to allocate it properly, there is a code switch that has to be entered in the boot.ini file.

Here's a little quote from the article:

This article describes the 4 gigabyte (GB) random access memory (RAM) Tuning feature and the Physical Address Extension (PAE) switch. The /3GB and /PAE switches in the Boot.ini file are to be used with Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server, Windows 2000 Datacenter Server, Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition, and Windows Server 2003 Datacenter Edition.

I'm sure this can be used 8 gig as well.

Beamtracer
09-30-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by extrabyte
Just wanted to let you know that Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to 8 Gig of ram. There is no 32-bit operating system that can allow an individual application to access 8 gigs of RAM.

The Apple G5 has both 32 and 64-bit components in the OS and the processor. It is currently the only desktop system (excluding Linux) that can access 8 gigs of RAM for each application. There is no 32-bit version of Windows or any other OS that can do this.

regarding G5 benchmarks:

Thanks, dwburman for posting your benchmarks. I'm glad you mentioned that the G5 was fast, even though Lightwave code is not yet optimized for it. Imagine how fast it'll go when Lightwave 8 comes out optimized for the G5!!!

As I mentioned in another post, the best 3GHz Xeons can beat the G5 when the code is optimized for the Xeon but not the G5.

A recent Photoshop test bares this out. A version of Photoshop optimized for the G5 has only just been released. On non-G5-optimized plug-ins the Xeon won the test.

On code that has been optimized for the G5, the G5 beat the pants off the best dual 3GHz Xeons that Intel could offer.

As I said, Lightwave 8 will be the test, when the code is optimized for both systems.

sketchyjay
09-30-2003, 11:25 PM
Can you make a 32 bit software AND a 64bit program from the same code base? Reason I ask this is because they have to code for 32 on windows and 64 on mac or do they hold off until both systems are at 64bit and THEN release both. I wonder how much the scattered release of 64bit processors and OS on the PC side will stall Lightwave. Also will plugins written for 32bit software run under a 64bit software or will that also cause a problem. backward compatibility for plugins or jump ahead and let everyone recomplie their plugs?

Thanks for the render times. Looks like OSX is in the lead.

How does the G5 run? I have had so many first edition equipment from apple that had bugs that I am cautious of getting anything from them the first 3 months it's out.

Not that it stopped me from ordering a G5 before seeing one.

Beam: They will probably update bothsides of the fence and everyone will see a nice speed boost once they add hyperthread optimizations, 64 processing and use all the niece new extentions that are always added to new chips. OSX wil probably maintain it's lead for a little while longer.

It looks like there are a flurry of new intel chips coming out as they try to fight back against AMD. It will be interesting to see where we are at by christmas.

Jay

facial deluxe
10-01-2003, 12:32 AM
Hey cool, at least some G5 news :)
Post your bench at www.blanos.com !

Lightwolf
10-01-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
There is no 32-bit operating system that can allow an individual application to access 8 gigs of RAM.
Damn, I have to jump in again ;)
Hi Beam, yes you can using PAE, even though it is a pain in the a** to code.
Just like old 16bit software running under DOS could use more than 64 KB of memory.
Cheers,
Mike

Beamtracer
10-01-2003, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by sketchyjay
Can you make a 32 bit software AND a 64bit program from the same code base? Reason I ask this is because they have to code for 32 on windows and 64 on mac or do they hold off until both systems are at 64bit and THEN release both. The G5 Mac can work in hybrid mode, so Newtek doesn't have to recode all of Lightwave. The G5 will also run 32-bit plug-ins, even though other parts of the software are accessing 64-bit features.

Regarding Blanos benchmarks, it'll mean something when Lightwave 8 is released, and each system is matched with optimized code.

Earl
10-01-2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Regarding Blanos benchmarks, it'll mean something when Lightwave 8 is released, and each system is matched with optimized code.

Um, Beam, Blanos isn't about only posting G5 benchmarks if they beat an Intel chip. The nice thing about Blanos is that it shows benchmarks using many configurations, using various versions of LW. It's not supposed to mean something in particular, it's supposed to help people by providing numerous benchmarks for all situations. Ugh, enough of this Mac vs PC thing...

sketchyjay
10-01-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
The G5 Mac can work in hybrid mode, so Newtek doesn't have to recode all of Lightwave. The G5 will also run 32-bit plug-ins, even though other parts of the software are accessing 64-bit features.

Regarding Blanos benchmarks, it'll mean something when Lightwave 8 is released, and each system is matched with optimized code.

Yes the OS will do it all, BUT my question was about LW not Mac or PC. Will a 64bit LW require all the plugins to be rewritten?

Also your point that a G5 can run 32 bit software misses what you and I asked; How much faster will an Optimized 64 bit LW run.

Wonder if Chuck or Proton has any info on if they are coding for 64bit chips yet?

I also wonder if the time difference between the two processors

Yeah the whole PC vs. Mac thing is a waste of time. I like the knicks and the Yankees no matter how many points they win or loose by I'll still be loyal to those teams. Computers are the same way. Each has thier off season. Mac has finally came out of theirs and is making a comeback. Great but eventually the PC will have thier winning season and this back and forth will continue on to infinity, and we'll still fight over which is better...well until terminator shows up and we are wired into the matrix then it will be what is better an organic brain or a digital one...lol

:D


Jay

Karmacop
10-01-2003, 11:20 AM
I think the point of plugins is that the base application ie lightwave will address memory etc so the plugins gain some 64bit ness without needing to be rewritten. Ofcourse plugins could be optimised to run faster on 64 bit machines I'm sure.

mattclary
10-01-2003, 12:10 PM
LMAO :) I spent less than $1200 on this machine.

http://www.blanos.com/benchmark/bprint.cgi?search=detail&id=1054908991

mlinde
10-01-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
Athlon 64... the only 64bit desktop you can order today and have by the end of the week.[/url]

Man we ought to put you and Beamtracer in a room and let you two duke it out, sig to sig. If I were to say anthing else, someone would take it too seriously.

mattclary
10-01-2003, 01:00 PM
;)

js33
10-01-2003, 01:34 PM
How about Ed and CaptainKirk battle it out. :D

I would have to root for CaptainKirk (not that I agree with what he says):D

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
10-01-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
Athlon 64... the only 64bit desktop you can order today and have by the end of the week.
Hi Matt. I'm not against the Athlon 64. I think it's the best choice for running Windows.

Apple G5s are hitting the stores. I went into a store yesterday and the guy said he received a delivery of G5 computers, and the boxes were stacked up to the ceiling. However, they all sold out quickly.

Next shipment in a few days. It's possible they might all get snapped up too. I hope to get mine in the next week or two.

http://a176.g.akamai.net/7/176/51/c7c3d57e3a5ec5/www.apple.com/pr/images/ref_pmg5_3q.jpg

I was looking at a display model. I liked the rounded styling of the former G4 more. The G5 looks more industrial, with square lines and steel mesh, but I guess they wanted to give the impression of strength and power.

mattclary
10-01-2003, 03:52 PM
That's a good looking box! I like the simplicity of it.

js33
10-01-2003, 04:18 PM
You're likely to get alot of dust in the machine with all those holes so a weekly cleaning will be in order.

Beam I know you will anyway but be sure to give us your first impressions when you get your new box.

Cheers,
JS

Tronam
10-01-2003, 04:47 PM
I think it's a shame that they couldn't continue with that brilliant G4 fold-out case design. That was the finest example of computer case engineering I'd seen in years. Now it looks like you have to take the side off, along with plastic airflow panels to get inside. Although, the added benefit of more regulated air flow is certainly a good one. I might head over to the local Apple store and finally check it out in person. There's no way I'll be buying one, but I'd like to see if they've managed to make OSX a little more responsive.

I haven't written off buying one, but I certainly won't invest in a dot-zero version of anything Apple produces. They typically iron out unexpected issues with followup models and the new revisions will include OS10.3.

-Tronam

Beamtracer
10-01-2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Tronam
Now it looks like you have to take the side off, along with plastic airflow panels to get inside.
Well, for a start the mesh on the front is steel, not plastic. I believe the sides are aluminum (aluminium for readers on the other side of the planet).

I checked one out in the shop. The sides look very clean. There is no button or latch on either side. Then I look around the rear, and there's a little latch hidden away, that allows the whole side panel to fold down.

Look at this...
http://a1856.g.akamai.net/7/1856/51/1e23fe706df0d0/www.apple.com/pr/images/ref_pmg5_inside.jpg

As long as the programs are optimized for it, this is the fastest desktop computer on the planet. The previous version of Adobe After Effects was faster on a Xeon. The newly released G5 optimized version of AE allows the dual 2GHz Apple G5 to comfortably beat a dual 3GHz Xeon.

As I said before, plug-ins must also be optimized to go super fast on the G5. Non-optimized plug-ins will go slower.

This is why we are eagerly awaiting Lightwave 8. Newtek has already said that it is in close contact with Apple to make Lightwave 8 scream on the new G5.

Tronam
10-01-2003, 08:13 PM
They opened up the case for you to see inside and it didn't have the plastic airflow panel? Strange. Even the Apple website has flash animations showing the panel.

-Tronam

extrabyte
10-01-2003, 08:57 PM
Of course you can't allocate all 8 gigs of ram to a single program.

Because if you did, then the computer would simply go to sleep.

There would be nothing left for the operating system to use.

dwburman
10-01-2003, 09:10 PM
When the case design was first shown I immediately thought of 1970's style design for some reason :) ...

yeah, there's a large clear plastic thing in the side panel that flips up. I think Beam thought you were talking about the front.

There are two things that struck me (design wise) when I set up the system.

#1 It's bigger than the G4. It may be bigger than it looks on the computer screen (like a lot of apple's designs).

#2 There is a lot of space behind the front grill. I'm guessing there's about 6 to 8 inches between the grill and the CPU fans. It kind of makes me want to put some kind of lighting effects in there. :)

It's a larger case and yet has fewer drive bays. Of course, it was designed for airflow and quietness. It succeedes on those levels.

I've heard about 1st generation MACs possibly having problems. I've only used it one day and so far the blue smoke hasn't escaped yet. I work for a private university and we can't always choose when we can make large purchases :/

wapangy
10-01-2003, 10:40 PM
I've got my 1.8 Ghz model, the thing is amazing. The case is very easy to get into and feels much better quality than anything else. With the clear plastic air deflector, you can run the computer with the aluminum side off and see the inards.

BY THE WAY, try using 4 and 8 threads insead of 2, people with dual processors get better results with those sometimes.

Beamtracer
10-01-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by extrabyte
Of course you can't allocate all 8 gigs of ram to a single program.
Because if you did, then the computer would simply go to sleep.
There would be nothing left for the operating system to use.
Okay, okay. Give or take a couple of hundred megs for the operating system to use. :p

Then again, when 2GB RAM cards are available, the G5 will take 16gigs of RAM. Apart from what the OS needs, a single app can take the rest! In the next few years, Microsoft Word will probably require that much RAM anyway! (just kidding)

I think a lot of people have an impression of the Mac based on what the old Mac was like:
-The original OS
-Only took a 1 button mouse
-People had the impression you could not expand the RAM.
-The impression Macs were expensive
-The impression Macs were slow

Today's reality:
-OS X is based on UNIX, and OS X is the world's most Object Oriented operating system. Very efficient at multithreading.
-Comes with 1-button mouse, or you can plug in a multi-button mouse
-Expandable to 8gigs of RAM (more than any Windows desktop machine)
-G5 price compares very favorably with dual Xeon machines from Dell.
-Speed? Running optimized apps it's the fastest desktop machine there is.

This is a very different beast to the Macs of yesteryear.

Jimzip
10-02-2003, 01:52 AM
Yeah, the stores take the plastic inner cover off because they know that customers are going to take the door off anyway!

Jimzip :D

Here it is:

wapangy
10-02-2003, 06:23 AM
If you remove the plastic cover when the machine is on, it turns up all the fans and lowers the processor speed to 1.3 Ghz.

sketchyjay
10-02-2003, 11:23 AM
Well I finally got the first of my G5s. A single processor 1.6Ghz unit. The fully equiped one is still coming. Of course tekserve only sent me 1 memory modlue so i'll have to wait a little bit before I can boost the ram.

It is a beutiful machine. Very industrial feel. One thing not mentioned is that the cd rom cover slides down to let the tray out. fun but useless fact.


:)


The best thing about it. We are using this in our confrence room so I can model on a nice big 60 in. plasma monitor.

:D

Yes it is very quiet. My PC at home sounds like a leaf blower compared to it.

There is no new software installed on it. Nothing new to play with, guess I'll have to wait till couger, lynx or what ever the next os is called comes out.

I'll wait till I get the extra memory to do any render tests. be kind of cool to test this against the dual G5 and dual G4s.

Will post more once i get lightwave installed and load up the memory

Jay

Tronam
10-02-2003, 12:01 PM
I'm curious to find out exactly how quiet it actually is. So far, I haven't found anything as quiet as my current PC with Zalman flower CPU cooler, Seagate Barracuda HD and Enermax whisper series PSUs. If it's even quieter than that, then I'll be amazed at Apple's engineering.

-Tronam

artologist
10-02-2003, 12:41 PM
As far as quiet goes. It is amazing. I have G4 cube and the my Dual G5 is as quiet or even better. Both machines make most of their noise on CD/DVD insertion. Must be the spin up.

sketchyjay
10-02-2003, 02:07 PM
you just don't hear the fans.

One thing I have to say about them compartmenizing the case is that each fan I guess only has to run just enough to keep things cool.

Actually looking thought the front grill you can see the blades of the fan as it turns so I know they must be going super slow. Slightly faster than a desk fan set to low.

I am assuming that the radiator on the cpu being so big allows it to pull heat of better.(4-5x as big as ANYTHING on a pc. To picture it think of 2 51/2 in cdr drives stacked on one another. That's alot of surface area to shead heat from)

Still no memory...I may have to wait to tomarrow to test this machine... :(

Jay

Tronam
10-02-2003, 02:16 PM
Yeah, large finned, slow moving fans are the key to reducing fan noise. This is why I avoid motherboards with active cooling on the chipset, get passively cooled video cards and get cooling fans with speed regulators. It makes all the difference.

-Tronam

Chazz
10-02-2003, 02:27 PM
I just got a new dual G5, and the thing is super quiet. My gamecube makes more noise than this thing...

js33
10-02-2003, 03:13 PM
It does look clean compared to a PC but that's because there aren't as many drives or drive bays which where all the cables come from.
In my current PC I have a DVD-Rom, DVD-Burner(Superdrive) hehe, a floppy and a 100 gig Harddrive. That is where all the cables come from. On my older PC I have a DVD-Rom, SCSI CD-burner, 3 hard drives and a floppy.

The G5 looks neat but it could use a couple more HD bays.

Cheers,
JS

Alliante
10-02-2003, 03:25 PM
At the very least a few external drive bays. But firewire has made adding external drives easy, so I do get the logic in that--I suppose I'm just a PC head ;)

sketchyjay
10-02-2003, 03:31 PM
yup no more 2 cd/dvd drives for dubbing. Also the whole front of the case... and the back is a grill for the fans. This less a computer and more a wind tunnel with a processor inside. :)

Also the main drive is crammed in an area that makes replacing it a real pain.

This reminds me of the switch from the 9600 with loads of pci slots to the g3/4/5 with only 3. I guess they are not as neccesary anymore with the firewire and usb.

Jay

sketchyjay
10-02-2003, 05:32 PM
well after having it on for a while with no energy saving features enabled it seems to have caused the fans to kick in and they are now just as loud as any PC.

Jay

js33
10-02-2003, 05:49 PM
My PC is very quite. I can't even tell it's on.

Cheers,
JS

Tronam
10-02-2003, 06:29 PM
I expected as much. It's not rocket science. Computers will always generate a certain amount of noise. One this is certain though. The average out-of-the-box OEM PC is certainly louder than a Macintosh. But, this can be remedied with good quality components.

-Tronam

Jimzip
10-03-2003, 07:07 AM
Ooooh!!! I went to an Apple Reseller today, not far from my house to look at the G5 there. It's a dual 2.0GHz model, and yes. It is really quiet. Seriously, that place is on a main road and nearly soundproof and I could hardly hear the G5 when I put my head up close to the front.

I had a play on it and watched the Matrix Revolutions trailer the full res one! It's like 800 x 1200 or something insane like that.. I also tried scrubbing through it (QT), and it's almost realtime, it's very cool..
If I hadn't bought my G4 computer at the end of last year, I'd so get a G5 tomorrow!!! *

Jimzip :D


* Jimzip's income does not allow for him to even 'theoretically' "get one tommorrow!!!".. The statement was for demonstrative purposes only.. :D

Beamtracer
10-07-2003, 08:12 PM
The clear-plastic screen inside the G5 (seen on the previous page) is a clever way to retain air pressure within the computer's enclosure. It's officially called the Air Deflector, although some people are unflatteringly referring to it as "the condom." You can only see it when the side door is open.

This would solve a problem with the previous model G4. On the G4, when you opened the side door the processor and motherboard would fold out with the door. An open door would leave the processor outside the main enclosure, while the main fan was inside the enclosure. It possibly could have caused a heat problem.

On the G5 you can open the side door and watch everything happening inside your computer, while all the components remain cool.

http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/e44da31efab93b/www.apple.com/pr/images/ref_pmg5_side.jpg

I've put an order in for a new dual 2GHz G5, with some custom options like the ATI 9800pro graphics card (the 'standard' dual 2GHz G5 ships with the 9600 card). It should ship with the new Panther operating system, optimized for the G5.

If the Apple G5 running optimized applications is already faster than any Intel computer, imagine how it'll go with an optimized OS. I'll happily provide benchmarks to test its speed against any Intel Xeon system.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/dec2002/images/970modagr.jpg

It's funny that Windows users sometimes still refer to their machines as an "IBM-PC" or "IBM compatible PC".

That's why it's ironic that it is the Apple G5 that now sports the IBM processor, while none of the Windows machines do. I can't imagine Apple doing an "IBM inside" promo though.

js33
10-07-2003, 08:22 PM
Well the IBM-PC NEVER had an IBM processor. It started with and always had Intel. But it is ironic that now the Apple machines have a processor from a company that started the PC revolution.
I guess we have come full circle now. :D

So what about putting your G5 up against a Dual Opteron?
Or dual Xeon as well. Or whatever Intel finally comes up with to counter the 64 bit moves from Apple and AMD.

Cheers,
JS

Tronam
10-07-2003, 09:00 PM
You just had to go for it, ehh? :) Well, not I. I'm waiting for the next Apple refresh possibly this winter. Congratulations though. Rejoice and be merry!

-Tronam

PS: Instead of helping to proliferate more shooting matches, why not produce some CG art instead. :D

Locutus
10-08-2003, 10:10 AM
This PC vs Mac crap serves what purpose?

dwburman
10-08-2003, 01:03 PM
I spent all my platform fanaticism in the early to mid nineties on the Amiga.

Personally I buy PCs because of the hardware flexibility and because they tend to be cheaper (I usually build my own) but I've been using MACs professionally since 1997.

In some ways I wish I was more of a MAC fan because of the sense of brotherhood in the community but I just don't care enough. The "evil empire bent on world domination" aspects of Microsoft don't bother me much anymore.

Apple puts together some nice machines. But they're "Death to old technology, even if it is an inconvenience to you." annoys me. For instance, I can't put our Wired Media Press MPEG encoder card in the new G5 because they didn't include a normal PCI slot and the Wired card doesn't have that extra notch in it that'll let it sit in a PCI-X slot.

But I am glad Apple is around. Competition is a good thing and Linux still doesn't seem to be a threat on the personal computer side.

Limbus
10-08-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Locutus
This PC vs Mac crap serves what purpose?

I guess some people need it to build up their ego.

Florian

Beamtracer
10-08-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by dwburman
I can't put our Wired Media Press MPEG encoder card in the new G5 because they didn't include a normal PCI slot and the Wired card doesn't have that extra notch in it that'll let it sit in a PCI-X slot.
New generation computers often leave legacy technology behind, such as your old MPEG card. This is the case whatever computer platform you use.

http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/e20c51b9ce3a35/www.apple.com/powermac/images/expansionpci-x06232003.gif
The Apple G5 has adopted the PCI-X format for 3rd party cards, because it is much faster than the previous AGP, and also faster than regular PCI. It is indicative of the generic nature of today's Mac, which also includes Serial ATA hard drives, USB ports and VGA displays.

You are annoyed at Apple deploying PCI-X on the G5, but don't forget that PCI-X is an Intel proprietary standard (as is USB). I presume that users of Windows computers will come across the same issues regarding legacy cards when the makers of Windows computers start including PCI-X.

The same thing happened with the switch from PCI to AGP, as old PCI cards didn't work in AGP slots. It also happened with different versions of AGP. Although the slot remained the same shape, the voltage increased, making it incompatible with older low-voltage cards.

If you look at the picture below (showing the rear of a G5 computer), you can see the array of ports that the G5 computer has...
http://a592.g.akamai.net/7/592/51/b7501486f67054/www.apple.com/powermac/images/expansionports06262003.gif
There's no less than 3 USB2 ports! (The extra one is on the front of the G5). There's also three AGP 8x ports (from Intel), Bluetooth (developed by Swedish Ericsson), and optical digital audio connecters which conform to the Toslink optical standard developed by Toshiba of Japan.

I think it's fine that Apple adopts technologies from different companies, including Intel (Apple was the first computer maker to deploy USB). In the future I think it would also be nice to see Intel adopt a few Apple standards, like Firewire.

sketchyjay
10-08-2003, 11:28 PM
Beam the average pc comes with 2 of each. Mine has 2 firewire and 6 usb 2.0 slots. all came with the motherboard. I have an add on PCI card with 3 firewire slots but never installed in since it is just overkill at this point.

at work most of the pcs have two 1.1 usb and recent ones use usb 2.0.

PCs have always had one old slot for those of use who hung onto a board longer than really neccessary. The move from ISA slots to PCI slots was helped by the MoBo manufacturers adding in 1-2 ISA slots in parallel with the PCI slots. some genious actually figured out how to seat the PCI slot so it would wind up next to the isa slot so either could be used. I'm sure PCs will keep at least one slot as they switch over to the new format.

Beam is that a pic of your G5?

wondering if anyone got the dual processor version yet. We got teh memory for our G5 so i'll do some render tests tomarrow night when it quiets down at work.

Oh update 10.2.8 of OSX is out for anyone interested.

Tronam
10-08-2003, 11:39 PM
I think what he may have been referring to was that Apple can sometimes be so progressive in their hardware designs that it is like a brick wall for some users. I'm not saying this is a bad thing in the long run, but in the PC world backwards compatibility is typically taken more seriously.

For instance, while AGP was a new video card standard that was incompatible with the PCI video cards of the day, it was an option and not required as you could still use your PCI video card even if the then new AGP slot went unused. Because the PC market is so large, when new technologies are introduced they phase out older standards very slowly. Even so, PC users do eventually have to face the music if they want to keep up, but this process is much slower. For example, nearly all current PC motherboards that include serial ATA also include a tradition IDE controller as well. Many PC motherboards also included slots for PC1xx and DDR SDRAM for a period of time as well. When PCI-X starts becoming more common in the PC world, they will very likely be hybrid solutions that also include traditional PCI slots. The PC industry just tends to work this way. Some prefer the quicker, more progressive approach, others like the extended backwards compatibility. Both approaches benefit different kinds of users. I like it all, which is why I own both platforms. :)

-Tronam

Beamtracer
10-08-2003, 11:48 PM
hi sketchyjay, the picture is from Apple. My G5 arrives in a couple of weeks, and will be a dual processor version.

The dual processor G5 has the following slots:
One AGP 8x slot (in my case occupied by the ATI 9800 card), and quoting from Apple's website: "Three open full-length PCI-X slots: one 133MHz, 64-bit slot and two 100MHz, 64-bit slots"

I don't know enough about the PCI-X standard to know the differences between these PCI-X slots, or their compatibility with regular PCI cards.

Apple announced that the Panther OS (optimized for the G5) will be released on October 24. It'll be interesting to see what differences it makes.

WizCraker
10-09-2003, 12:09 AM
I'm likeing that Firewire 800 port, It really makes USB 2.0 look wimpy now. The only problem is there is not a pci card for the PC users out yet. But then again you need hardware to take advantage of the it but that will only be a couple of months anyways. Either way I want one.

Limbus
10-09-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

I don't know enough about the PCI-X standard to know the differences between these PCI-X slots, or their compatibility with regular PCI cards.


They are incompatible. You need to rebuy all PCI Cards that you want to use.

Florian

bri
10-09-2003, 03:01 AM
you can see pci-x in some server and workstation boards, because regular pci doesn't have enought bandwidth for 320scsi raid or gb ethernet. that's why you don't see it in desktop boards and even in cheap wstation/server ones. can't see the point on including this very high-end slots in desktop computers
pci-x it is not the future pci; the future pci is pci-express, and it'll replace pci and agp in 2004-2005; there's no relation between pci-x and pci-express. i suppose apple will include pci-express sooner than anyone, as always happens. nice looking g5 :drool:

btw:http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=dualduel&page=4

wapangy
10-09-2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Limbus
They are incompatible. You need to rebuy all PCI Cards that you want to use.

Florian

Were do you get this stuff? That is untrue, most PCI card will still work. Only 5 Volt cards do not.

dwburman
10-09-2003, 09:20 AM
Beam, my PC has 3 PCI-X slots and 2 PCI slots. I have an old IDE controller card in my machine that'll fit in a PCI-X slot and seems to work fine.

[edit]

I had written more but this thread is getting long and off topic so I'll just end with that. :)

Zarathustra
10-09-2003, 12:50 PM
Hold on now. Can someone give me a straight answer about these PCI slots? I have an Igniter card in my G4. You mean to tell me it can't be moved to my new G5 (which I'll eventually have to have)?

I guess I have to write Aurora. I already wrote Powerlogix since Apple says Panther won't be compatible with upgrade cards.

dwburman
10-09-2003, 03:24 PM
Zarathustra,

Here's a Pic of the media press card (which we was ordered last month, so it is a new card)

http://wiredinc.com/images/MediaPressCork.jpg

Notice how there is one notch towards the back of the contacts where it plugs in to the PCI slot? This won't fit into a PCI-X slot because PCI-X slots have a notch at the front of the slot as well.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/0821/adaptec.jpg

They are also longer than PCI slots but if your PCI card has that front notch it should work. For instance, Blackmagic Design's Decklink cards are regular size and have that front notch so I'm thinking they'll fit in the PCI-X slot. Heck there Decklink HD product will fill the whole slot.


I don't know about compatibility issues. I just know I can't plug it in :)

Zarathustra
10-09-2003, 03:33 PM
Thanks. Yes, I just found out it's $299 to upgrade my Igniter card.
F---!

WizCraker
10-09-2003, 04:42 PM
Well according to the link posted above this quote should explain everthing.


Keep in mind, potential users, PCI-X slots are backwards compatible with 64-bit PCI and 32-bit PCI cards.

If you look at the 64-bit pci slots utilizing pci-x

http://www.gamepc.com/images/labs/rev-dualduel-expTYANlg.jpg

and the normal 32-bit pci slots

http://www.gamepc.com/images/labs/rev-dualduel-expMSIlg.jpg

I've installed 32-bit cards into 64-bit pci slots and everything worked fine. [of course it was not an apple but they usually don't change ISO']

Some more Quotes


Despite its advantages, PCI-X will never be a mass market solution...... In addition, the industry is gearing up to move to PCI Express in the next year, which will merge the lines between AGP/PCI-X/PCI and simplify expansion into various stages of PCI Express slots.............Still, it will likely be a year before we see PCI Express available, and likely 6 months to another year before we see all of our favorite peripheral makers move their boards over to the PCI Express form factor. Thus, upgrading to PCI-X now still has a year and a half to two years of performance advantages over 32-bit PCI.

pixelmonk
10-09-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer


I was looking at a display model. I liked the rounded styling of the former G4 more. The G5 looks more industrial, with square lines and steel mesh, but I guess they wanted to give the impression of strength and power.

Nah.. more of a ripoff from Boxx with the steel mesh look. It's been done. Yawn, Apple.

Beamtracer
10-16-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by pixelmonk
G5... 64 bits of hype and lack-luster performance in a pretty desktop box.

Hi Pixelmonk. Don't feel threatened by Apple. They are not going to become bigger than Microsoft is, nor do Apple users want them to be as big as Microsoft is.

It is healthy for the computer industry when there are lots Operating Systems and Processors in a competitive market. I give full marks to Apple for competiting in this environment, and keeping the industry fresh.

Whether you like Apple or not, they are doing things differently to the rest, and this is a good thing. Or is it better to live in a computer mono-culture?

I take my hat off to Apple, and in the PC world to AMD, for both daring to take on the monopolists. Those who use Intel processors are also the beneficiaries of Apple and AMD innovation.

So, to sum up, I'm not saying your computer is bad. It's just a good thing to have other innovative players in this business to "keep the others on their toes."

pixelmonk
10-16-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Hi Pixelmonk. Don't feel threatened by Apple. They are not going to become bigger than Microsoft is, nor do Apple users want them to be as big as Microsoft is.

-snipped for the sake of snipping--

Ahahah.. thanks for that joke. :) I don't feel threatened. It looks like a Boxx ripoff, IMO. That has nothing to do with how well Apple or OSX is doing. Companies often emulate other companies. In its early years, Windows was a ripoff too.

I know SOME Apple users don't want to be as big as Microsoft. A percentage of them are even elitists who feel that if Apple were to get any bigger, they would feel less self-worth. It's sad when a person feels their worth is tied into a computer so they treat it like a small pet and will take a person's hand off if they speak badly about it (even if there is some truth to it). Again... that's some of the die-hards, and I'm not really pointing a finger.