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dysamoria
01-31-2011, 08:44 PM
one thing i have always had a problem with in 3D apps is the issue of surface presets never looking right on my objects. this has to do with scaling of the surface. so, is there an easy way to rescale a surface for an object instead of editing every single scale-related setting in a surface? there could be lots of settings to change, especially with layers of procedurals and whatnot...

help?

Kuzey
02-01-2011, 05:03 AM
Yeah...that could be a pain.

I even thought of having a special node to multiply/divide etc. the entire node tree settings in one go. Maybe have a couple settings, like original object size value (the surface was created for)...let's say a 1m sphere. Another one, for the new object size...let's say 10m sphere. LW would take those two settings and automatically scale the values in all the nodes of the node tree to make it look right.

*Cough* Newtek *Cough* :hey:

Anyway, the simplest way...is to scale the object in Modeler until the surface looks right.

I'm hoping to write a tutorial on this very thing...tonight or in the next day or two.

Kuzey

Skonk
02-01-2011, 05:13 AM
No easy way with existing presets....

But when building new surfaces using nodes, if you make sure you create a node to act as a global scale/size value for all the other nodes. i.e if you have 5 image nodes, use a single vector node (defaulted to 1,1,1 perhaps) and pipe it into the scale inputs on all 5 images then to change the overall size of the surface, simply change the scale vector node.

I do this myself when I'm applying for example, Colour, Bump and Spec to a surface. I will use a Vector node for the Scale value of all 3 images, then adjust the vector node to change the size of all 3 of them together.

You can also mix in multiply nodes to take the overall scall value and either increase or decrease it if you require certain nodes to have different scales but keep them relative when adjust the overall surface scalling (I'm not even sure if I understand my own explenation there lol).

It's just one of those things that require a little forward-thinking when building your surfaces to make them more re-usable later on.

Matt
02-01-2011, 05:24 AM
Use Kevin Philip's rescale Textures script (Layout) here:

http://www.kevman3d.com/lightwave.asp?section=plugins&sub=layout

Kuzey
02-01-2011, 05:40 AM
Use Kevin Philip's rescale Textures script (Layout) here:

http://www.kevman3d.com/lightwave.asp?section=plugins&sub=layout

I just tried it and looks like it's for old layer system(LW7.5 to LW8.5)...doesn't seem to work with node trees....bummer??

I would love to see this to be updated...it's exactly what I dreamed of :D

Kuzey

JeffrySG
02-01-2011, 09:31 AM
What I sometimes do is set up a scale node that goes into the input of all of the scale settings for all of the nodes. Then I also apply a multiply to get the correct scale for each node. Then if I want to size up the node texture I simply set the main scale node to a higher number and it raises all of the other nodes the appropriate amount (or shrinks). You only need to adjust that one node. Does that make sense?

If you want to see what I mean you can download my preset here:
http://www.presetcentral.com/preset/329/

and look at how I set it up... :) hope this helps.

dysamoria
02-02-2011, 04:02 AM
so... what you're all saying is... No. this just sucks in 3D in general. Sigh. thanks for the replies and ideas.

sadly, the suggested solutions are either incomplete (the script that doesn't support nodes... but then neither does the surface editor in 9.6.1 http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1102703&postcount=61) or far too complicated (too much math logic) like setting up my own ... thingies... in the node editor to control scale.

the thing about scaling an object till the surface looks right... that's... wow... that's so backwards. i'm not slamming people for doing it/suggesting it. i'm slamming the tool for not having anything more elegant. my understanding is that you model first, set up a scene second, light it, then do detailed surfacing. what order of operations are you SUPPOSED to use??

apparently i'm just too stupid for 3D.

Kuzey
02-03-2011, 06:24 AM
What I sometimes do is set up a scale node that goes into the input of all of the scale settings for all of the nodes. Then I also apply a multiply to get the correct scale for each node. Then if I want to size up the node texture I simply set the main scale node to a higher number and it raises all of the other nodes the appropriate amount (or shrinks). You only need to adjust that one node. Does that make sense?

If you want to see what I mean you can download my preset here:
http://www.presetcentral.com/preset/329/

and look at how I set it up... :) hope this helps.

Yes, it does make sense...but a little tutorial would do wonders...hehe.

Basically, how do you work out what values to have in each of the multiple nodes?

I'm sure its simple maths, but....I just can't see it at the moment :D

Kuzey

Getting Board
02-03-2011, 08:48 AM
I had asked Kuzey if there was a single node that could manipulate/control the scaling of all other nodes in a given surface. While waiting for an answer I went to check it out myself. I didn't realize that the Vector node was the one I was looking for, but now that you've pointed it out I've added a Vector node to Kuzeys' metal surfaces and it works PERFECTLY!

I simply added the Vector node and attached it to every "Scale" input. Simple... perfect... beautiful.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

As a previous poster mentioned, it's also the most frustrating thing that I've come across in the 3D world as well. Looks like I just overcame a big hurdle, at least with node-based surfaces.

THANKS AGAIN!

BTW: Did I say thanks?

Lance Richardson
GettingBoard.com

Kuzey
02-03-2011, 01:31 PM
I had asked Kuzey if there was a single node that could manipulate/control the scaling of all other nodes in a given surface. While waiting for an answer I went to check it out myself. I didn't realize that the Vector node was the one I was looking for, but now that you've pointed it out I've added a Vector node to Kuzeys' metal surfaces and it works PERFECTLY!

I simply added the Vector node and attached it to every "Scale" input. Simple... perfect... beautiful.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

As a previous poster mentioned, it's also the most frustrating thing that I've come across in the 3D world as well. Looks like I just overcame a big hurdle, at least with node-based surfaces.

THANKS AGAIN!

BTW: Did I say thanks?

Lance Richardson
GettingBoard.com

Tell me...it can't be that simple...I was expecting something more complicated....hehe.

Nice going Lance, I'm going to have to test that out for myself :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Getting Board
02-03-2011, 09:09 PM
Tell me...it can't be that simple...I was expecting something more complicated....hehe.

Nice going Lance, I'm going to have to test that out for myself :thumbsup:

Kuzey

It's even easier than that. Instead of adding a Vector node (which requires manually adjusting each axis individually, you can use a Scalar node and it does them all at the same time!

Vector will be useful for some textures that need to be tweaked a little more to get it to look just right, but so far the Scalar node has done all I need.

JeffrySG, if there's something technically off about using the Scalar method instead of the Vector method, please let me know. Also, you had mentioned that you used the Multiply option to achieve the scaling when using the Vector node. I didn't change anything to Multiply that wasn't already set to Multiply. Should I be?

Getting Board
02-03-2011, 10:20 PM
Ok, update on my scaling experiment. I've see now that the Incidence node is not having the intended effect.

Here's what I did:

I used Kuzeys (raygun)bluetube surface, added a Scalar node, attached it to the Scale inputs of the 3 nodes that have a Scale input, adjusted the Scalar value until the surface looked good on my object (.4 Scalar value), saved the surface, cleared the scene, loaded the "metal shaders02.lws" scene file, replaced an existing surface on the "metal shaders02" object with my recently-saved new surface, then, with limited region rendering, rendered the object to see my surface. The surface looked great once I scaled it up, but the incidence node was having no effect on the surface. By that I mean that the "dirt" or "grunge" effect that accentuates in the crevices was not there. The pattern, though random, was consistently random across the object (does that even make sense? :) ) leaving the object looking very "blah." So now my issue is the incidence node.

My guess is that the Multiply option has something to do with it.

Any ideas?

BTW: You guys have been amazing at helping when I need it. Thanks very much.

kevman3d
02-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Use Kevin Philip's rescale Textures script (Layout) here:

http://www.kevman3d.com/lightwave.asp?section=plugins&sub=layout

Holey moley, I didn't realise anybody would ever remember all my plugins. That one I wrote for that exact reason - cause it was a right pita to deal with sci-fi textures where multiple copies of the same layer were spread across multiple channels and hand-tweak the size one by one.

That said, in nodes I just share the same node to multiple inputs - which is a godsend compared to layers. Tweak one, update many. Or I have a constant node to feed others (ie. like a scale-type approach) for quick tweaking.

kevman3d
02-03-2011, 11:55 PM
Ok, update on my scaling experiment. I've see now that the Incidence node is not having the intended effect.

Incidence node? As far as I know, incidence just calculates the incidence angle which I guess is fed into another node as an input to drive something - what are you doing with the incidence node (ie. its controlling something, but then you are doing something that that other node in terms of scaling/adjusting it?)

:question:

netstile123
02-04-2011, 06:05 AM
I was working on learning this the last few days on adding a displacement map to a plain. In your node editor - add node,tools,make vector. Add alpha from 3d texture to make vector and add vector to displacement input. In your displacement node you can adjust your scale any vector of your 3d texture on your object- I was working on dan alban 3d garage lightwave 9 training. I am not sure for sure if this is what you guys are talking about , I am a nubee and thought I would axually try to comment

JeffrySG
02-04-2011, 10:04 AM
JeffrySG, if there's something technically off about using the Scalar method instead of the Vector method, please let me know. Also, you had mentioned that you used the Multiply option to achieve the scaling when using the Vector node. I didn't change anything to Multiply that wasn't already set to Multiply. Should I be?

Well the only reason to use the vector over the scalar is that you may need to scale the texture differently in each of the three axis. If you use vector all three will be the same thing.

You do need the multiply node if your scale setting are different for any of the nodes. I was going to do a video on this whole set up. I'll post a link when I get to it, probably this weekend. Yes, there is some math but it's very very basic stuff. If it wasn't I wouldn't have been able to figure it out! lol

and you're welcome... it's not often that I can really help people out with node stuff! :D I'm going to try to cover a few other little things in the video that might help when setting up your textures to scale correctly.

Kuzey
02-04-2011, 01:29 PM
Well the only reason to use the vector over the scalar is that you may need to scale the texture differently in each of the three axis. If you use vector all three will be the same thing.

You do need the multiply node if your scale setting are different for any of the nodes. I was going to do a video on this whole set up. I'll post a link when I get to it, probably this weekend. Yes, there is some math but it's very very basic stuff. If it wasn't I wouldn't have been able to figure it out! lol

and you're welcome... it's not often that I can really help people out with node stuff! :D I'm going to try to cover a few other little things in the video that might help when setting up your textures to scale correctly.

Ooooh....excellent :thumbsup:

I'll post about it on my blog once it up....I can't wait :thumbsup:

Kuzey

JeffrySG
02-05-2011, 06:11 PM
Well the video is up if you want to check it out.... :) I included the source files if you wanted to look at them... Enjoy! :beerchug:

How to adjust your node based textures for easy scaling in Lightwave 3d - (http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html)
In this video tutorial, we review how to take your node based textures and set them up so that the entire node tree can be easily scaled by adjusting a single controller node. You can use this technique on existing node setups as well as on new ones. This is great when you need to adjust the scale of your textures for objects and scenes that vary greatly in size from the original use.

If you want to download the video I have a link at the bottom of the page.

Application: Lightwave 10 / File size: 26.6MB / Length: 14:24

Kuzey
02-06-2011, 06:21 AM
Haha...downloading Noooooooooooooow :thumbsup:

Kuzey

daforum
02-06-2011, 03:00 PM
Well the video is up if you want to check it out.... :) I included the source files if you wanted to look at them... Enjoy! :beerchug:

How to adjust your node based textures for easy scaling in Lightwave 3d - (http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html)
In this video tutorial, we review how to take your node based textures and set them up so that the entire node tree can be easily scaled by adjusting a single controller node. You can use this technique on existing node setups as well as on new ones. This is great when you need to adjust the scale of your textures for objects and scenes that vary greatly in size from the original use.

If you want to download the video I have a link at the bottom of the page.

Application: Lightwave 10 / File size: 26.6MB / Length: 14:24

JeffrySG, can this technique be applied in LW9.6?

JeffrySG
02-06-2011, 03:59 PM
JeffrySG, can this technique be applied in LW9.6?

Yep. 10 is the same as 9.6 for almost everything... :) You just won't have VPR running in a window.

daforum
02-06-2011, 04:21 PM
Thank you :) Will be downloading and watching shortly............... :beerchug:

Getting Board
02-07-2011, 11:43 AM
Well the video is up if you want to check it out.... :) I included the source files if you wanted to look at them... Enjoy! :beerchug:

How to adjust your node based textures for easy scaling in Lightwave 3d - (http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html)
In this video tutorial, we review how to take your node based textures and set them up so that the entire node tree can be easily scaled by adjusting a single controller node. You can use this technique on existing node setups as well as on new ones. This is great when you need to adjust the scale of your textures for objects and scenes that vary greatly in size from the original use.

If you want to download the video I have a link at the bottom of the page.

Application: Lightwave 10 / File size: 26.6MB / Length: 14:24

I feel like I just saw the Wright Brothers explain how flight works, then show it in action.

It's one of those things... days, weeks, months of seemingly ENDLESS trial and error, but, once discovered (or in this case explained to you) makes perfect sense and is easy to understand.

I only THOUGHT I was seeing Kuzey's surfaces correctly. I wasn't flying... "I was falling -- with STYLE!"

Thanks for showing us how to fly.

Lance Richardson
GettingBoard.com

Kuzey
02-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Just got around to watching it....that was totally cool and so simple :thumbsup:

http://kuzey3d.blogspot.com/2011/02/node-scaling-tutorial-by-pixel-poly.html



Kuzey

JeffrySG
02-07-2011, 03:37 PM
Yeah it was one of those things that I stared to do when I had a node tree and every time I tried to adjust it I had to change about 15 different numbers so I just thought I'd do it that way. I came up with the idea of working on a 1m cube when I was thinking about the video - but it makes it so simple to size and figure out what size to use too.

Glad you guys were able to get something out of it... and thanks for the blog post Kuzey. :)

dysamoria
02-07-2011, 09:57 PM
hmm... i'm glad you folks have found some good things to do with my frustrating topic ;-)

as for the math being easy... maybe if i watch the video and see how you actually do it... i'm very painfully visual and need to see things to understand them. reading about the proposed solutions just makes my brain switch off... you can almost hear the noise "... add a vector node to the input of the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn......"

TechnoBill
02-08-2011, 01:02 AM
... i'm very painfully visual and need to see things to understand them. reading about the proposed solutions just makes my brain switch off... you can almost hear the noise "... add a vector node to the input of the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn......"
The second click you hear is my brain following suite. I find I am getting the same way in my old age.
I am a lightwave newbie and I really want to understand nodes, but everytime I get in there to experiment with something more complex, it just ends in frustration. Need lots more node editor tutes :-)

I was trying to suss out this scaling issue just the other day and didnt understand which bits to use. This video was fantastic. Thanks alot Jeffry, As a thankyou, I just purchased the tute on your page. If its as good as the video I just watched I am more than happy to buy it.

Bill D

JeffrySG
02-08-2011, 10:29 AM
dysamoria: the math is really simple and one you see it, it will be easier to understand.

Thanks, Bill. Let me know if you have any questions on the videos. :)

JeffrySG
02-08-2011, 10:36 AM
Also, probiner had another great suggestion, which was to use a 'vector scale' node at the end instead of the 'vector'. This lets you set the three axis if you need to distort and there is also a setting for a general scale amount. Another great option on how to have the front node control it all.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1109636&postcount=2

dysamoria
02-11-2011, 12:40 AM
thanks for the tutorial video. i can follow it, but, seriously, i can't do math. i've a disability in that area (i know, wth am i doing using computers and 3D software...). but at least i could follow this maybe some time when setting initial surfaces up (instead of trying to scale existing ones).

are there any techniques on doing scaling for NON-nodal surfaces or are we just screwed with that?

PS: anyone here think the Shader Tree in Modo was invented by crackheads?? :lol: